A weird Christian friend

[north_malaysian]

I have a Malaysian Christian friend on the facebook and she said that she doesnt celebrate Christmas... when I asked her whether she's a christian or not.. this is her answer:

[PIE]I am a Christian yes, but I dont celebrate Christmas, or Good Friday or Easter because these are all man made celebrations. The problem is that the Christians today do not study their own scriptures. And those who do, dont see what I see. Even the Christmas tree la... I threw out our Christmas tree 5 years ago when I found a verse in the bible about how the pagans would get a tree and dress it with silver ornaments.

My husband doesnt exactly agree with me but he will la one day. He has seen and read and studied the same Bible verses.

And I don't attend buildings that call themselves a church also. The word church in the bible means Ekklesia which means those who have been called out of the system.

The problem with most Christians is that they love themselves too much when we are supposed to not do that. I can send you some articles I have on why Christmas is pagan.

By the way, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. I dont even believe in denominations macam Protestant, or AOG or others. The bible also says sectarinism is a sin... tapi those people are too blond to say it la.

But the Bible also says, some will not see the truth because the Lord himself will send strong delusions to test them ;)[/PIE]

Can any Christians explain this?

[KAding]

I have to say, I never quite understand this necessity to distance oneself from 'paganism'. So the Christmas tree is a pagan ritual, so what? Christmas is by and large a Christian holiday, but that doesn't stop me from celebrating it. It's simply part of our culture.

Why this incessant need to do away with anything that doesn't root in your own religion? Is this prescribed in the Bible anywhere? Are activities that have pagan roots "wrong" by definition? I know in Islam 'imitating the kuffar' is explicitly discouraged. Is there anything similar in Christianity?

[glo]

I would quite simply say that it depends on how you rate traditions in Christianity.
Celebrating Christmas and Easter, having Christmas decorations, Advent wreaths, Lenten fast etc, etc are not prescribed practices, they are traditions which have developed over the centuries and which some Christians uphold and others don't.

Having a Christmas tree or celebrating Christmas per se is not what makes us Christians.
Keeping Lent and celebrating Easter is not what makes us Christians.

Believing that God came to earth in the form of Jesus, and that Jesus died for us and was raised again, that God's Spirit lives in all of us if we invite him to, that Jesus will return to jduge mankind ... those are the things that make us Christians.

Some Christians find the traditions and celebrations helpful in focusing their faith. (I am following an Advent reading in preparation for Christmas for the first time this year and find it very beneficial)
Others find it distracting and irrelevant. (Your friend seems to one of those people, and at one point I would have agreed with her in many ways)

Peace

[Tony]

I understand the point I think, no-one really knows when the dates are and yes xmas and santa, trees etc are of pagan and Turkish origins( and coke), I think most Christians would celebrate xmas appropriately but recognise that the pagan part has become a chance to spoil and show love to their children. With all the evil done to innocents in this world I think they have got it right and hope they have a happy xmas.

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[Whatsthepoint]

I haven't stepped into a church for 2 years now, but I still celebrate Christmas,Easter and some other Catholic/Christian holidays with may family and friends.

and hope they have a happy xmas.

Any particular reason for not using the word Christmas?

[Tony]

I haven't stepped into a church for 2 years now, but I still celebrate Christmas,Easter and some other Catholic/Christian holidays with may family and friends.


Any particular reason for not using the word Christmas?

You again Haha. No sorry it was a bit rude wasnt it, just way of world I guess. Merry Christmas all

[north_malaysian]

I have to say, I never quite understand this necessity to distance oneself from 'paganism'. So the Christmas tree is a pagan ritual, so what? Christmas is by and large a Christian holiday, but that doesn't stop me from celebrating it. It's simply part of our culture.

Why this incessant need to do away with anything that doesn't root in your own religion? Is this prescribed in the Bible anywhere? Are activities that have pagan roots "wrong" by definition? I know in Islam 'imitating the kuffar' is explicitly discouraged. Is there anything similar in Christianity?

I think she's like a "salafi" in Christianity...

[north_malaysian]

Others find it distracting and irrelevant. (Your friend seems to one of those people, and at one point I would have agreed with her in many ways)

Peace

She mentioned to me that she's the only person in her family doing this... I think she might be the only Malaysian Christian doing this...

P/S: She has a "crucified santa" as her profile pic.

[north_malaysian]

I haven't stepped into a church for 2 years now, but I still celebrate Christmas,Easter and some other Catholic/Christian holidays with may family and friends.

I knew many Muslims who never pray or fast in Ramadan... but celebrating the Eids like crazy...:D

[Amadeus85]

She mentioned to me that she's the only person in her family doing this... I think she might be the only Malaysian Christian doing this...

P/S: She has a "crucified santa" as her profile pic.

Thats maybe the reason. She is quite "unique". Because its true that Jesus Christ wasnt born exactly at 24 december, its just that we celebrate this event since hundreds of years on that day, Christmas Eve. It would be strange if we change it now. It doesnt matter, what unchristian roots it has, but what matters is the current meaning for us , christians.

[Keltoi]

One can follow the cultural traditions of the Christmas holiday without compromising the religious significance. I don't take Santa or the Eastery bunny seriously because as a Christian I understand that these are cultural additions to a religious observance. I don't feel the need to state "I do not celebrate Christmas" however. I do celebrate Christmas, and Santa has nothing to do with it.

[AntiKarateKid]

Let me tell you why imitating pagans and ADDING things to your religious practices is bad.

Because the purest generation of CHristians DID NOT celebrate it. Jesus DID NOT prescribe it.

I dont understand this behavior. WHy the hek should I add stuff TAKEN FROM OTHER religions and add it as ways to celebrate mine???

Do you think by doing this you make Christianity better? You think you could do it better than JEsus or the apostles did it???



Is that so hard to grasp? Between choosing how Jesus practiced Christianity and putting up a pagan tree and santa and celebrating his birthday on the WRONG day too, I would opt for the former.

[AntiKarateKid]

One can follow the cultural traditions of the Christmas holiday without compromising the religious significance. I don't take Santa or the Eastery bunny seriously because as a Christian I understand that these are cultural additions to a religious observance. I don't feel the need to state "I do not celebrate Christmas" however. I do celebrate Christmas, and Santa has nothing to do with it.

You compromise your religion. People think that adding stuff to their religius practices is no biggie but thats how Christianity went from monotheism to polytheism.

Keep adding more and more unrelated stuff and let's see if when Jesus returns he will even recognize his own religion.

Have fun! Tell me when you feel like celebrating a new pagan holiday like "Christmmer" in the middle of July. Put up a little Sun god statue and pass it off as teaching Children the relationship between "Christ and his father.":rollseyes



I honestly cant believe the responses from the Christians on this board.

[MuslimCONVERT]

Here's a question... does anyone think it's insulting to Jesus that his birthday is celebrated on a pagan holiday instead of his actual birthday, and that this date was chosen simply to gain Roman converts by kowtowing to their paganistic religion of which Jesus adamently preached against as "foolish" in several places in the Bible?

[Amadeus85]

Well, the muslims for example did use tha pagan stone of Kaaba, worshhipped in pre islamic times by Arabs.

[Tony]

Well, the muslims for example did use tha pagan stone of Kaaba, worshhipped in pre islamic times by Arabs.

Not to pray to

[AntiKarateKid]

Well, the muslims for example did use tha pagan stone of Kaaba, worshhipped in pre islamic times by Arabs.

Sorry but that is a poor example.

It was built by Adam and desecrated by Pagans then restored by the Prophet pbuh.


Can you say the same thing about your stuff?

[Amadeus85]

Not to pray to

As if christians prayed to the christmas tree... :)

You see, this is the same thing. The Kaaba was used by the pagans, to worship. Then it was used by your prophet Muhammed and used in islamic cult. Kaaba is the place where muslims turn their faces during every prayers.
And im not saying this to attack your religion. Its just that your arguments against Christmas could be turned against your religious practices.
BTW maybe few people know but the Christmas Tree was spoused to represent the Tree of Good and Evil from the Paradise.

[Amadeus85]

Sorry but that is a poor example.

It was built by Adam and desecrated by Pagans then restored by the Prophet pbuh.


Can you say the same thing about your stuff?

Well, of course this is muslim version. I have never heard b4 about Adam building any big stone monuments in Arabia.
But now we go off topic I guess.

[Tony]

As if christians prayed to the christmas tree... :)

You see, this is the same thing. The Kaaba was used by the pagans, to worship. Then it was used by your prophet Muhammed and used in islamic cult. Kaaba is the place where muslims turn their faces during every prayers.
And im not saying this to attack your religion. Its just that your arguments against Christmas could be turned against your religious practices.
BTW maybe few people know but the Christmas Tree was spoused to represent the Tree of Good and Evil from the Paradise.

Tree was originally inverted and hung with shiny objects in order to scare off evil spirits. Dont worry about explaining not attacking religion, its a forum and you have right to youre veiw. Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

Well, of course this is muslim version. I have never heard b4 about Adam building any big stone monuments in Arabia.
But now we go off topic I guess.

You admit that the tree isnt part of your religion but use it in ceremonies.

We assert that the Kaaba is PART of out religion and turn to it while praying.


You admit that you are adding something.

[Grace Seeker]

Here's a question... does anyone think it's insulting to Jesus that his birthday is celebrated on a pagan holiday instead of his actual birthday, and that this date was chosen simply to gain Roman converts by kowtowing to their paganistic religion of which Jesus adamently preached against as "foolish" in several places in the Bible?

If we knew when his actual birthday was we would celebrate it then. Personally I vote for sometime in October, but I can't prove it and I don't think anyone can. So, we pick a day, and if we can "Christianize" a pagan holiday so that it speaks more of Jesus than of some pagan diety, then I'm all for it.

[AntiKarateKid]

why add something Jesus didnt prescribe and the Apostles didnt need?

What is this need to try and "improve" your religion from what it was?

[north_malaysian]

Well, the muslims for example did use tha pagan stone of Kaaba, worshhipped in pre islamic times by Arabs.

LOL... Abraham built Kaaba as a monotheistic house of God ... then the pagans hijacked it and made it a polytheistic house of Gods... then Muhammad reverted it back to a monotheistic house of God...

Just like temple mount... Solomon built a monotheistic house of God....then the Roman hijacked it and made it into polytheistic Temple of Jupiter .. then the Christians turned it into a dumpsite....then came the Muslims cleaned the place and built a mosque (many Jews helped the Muslims cleaning the site and even built the mosque as for the first time, the holy place was reverted back to it monotheistic status)...

[Follower]

And so the circling of the pagan kaaba was changed to go in the other direction.

[north_malaysian]

And so the circling of the pagan kaaba was changed to go in the other direction.

Allah Almighty says: "And (remember) when We showed Ibrahim the site of the (Sacred) House (the Kaaba at Makkah), saying: Ascribe not anything (in worship) with Me, and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up (for prayer), and those who bow (submit themselves with humility and obedience to Allah), and make prostration (in prayer). And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj)." (Al-Hajj, 22:26-27).

The circling (tawaf) was started since Abraham...

[Woodrow]

Now to return to the original topic. There are Christians that refuse to do any form of secular celebrating. In my Christian years and especially as an "Old School" Catholic. some things that were frowned upon were non-religious, especially non-Catholic celebrations. Christmas was supposed to be "Christ's Mass" a day of prayer and not a secular party involving trees, an old man in a red suit and presents.

Much of what is seen in todays world as Christian celebrations came about in the 1800s and are not recognized as religious celebrations by some Christians.


My point being: the woman mentioned in the opening post, is not the only Christian who does not celebrate Christmas. I have known several that do not celebrate it.

[north_malaysian]

My point being: the woman mentioned in the opening post, is not the only Christian who does not celebrate Christmas. I have known several that do not celebrate it.

I find it weird... because .. I never heard of Christians not celebrating Christmas...

I wonder how many Christians are like her...

[glo]

Now to return to the original topic. There are Christians that refuse to do any form of secular celebrating. In my Christian years and especially as an "Old School" Catholic. some things that were frowned upon were non-religious, especially non-Catholic celebrations. Christmas was supposed to be "Christ's Mass" a day of prayer and not a secular party involving trees, an old man in a red suit and presents.

Much of what is seen in todays world as Christian celebrations came about in the 1800s and are not recognized as religious celebrations by some Christians.

I am sure I have said this in previous years, and I say it again.

If the celebration of the birth of Christ was truly placed at the time of pagan celebrations in an attempt to attract pagans to the Christian faith, then it has probably backfired.

As a consequence we now have a very popular, very secular, very commercial festival - and it can be hard to remain focused on the true reason we (as Christians) celebrate.

I am encouraged to see Christians increasingly trying to turn away from the secular and commercial and instead focus on the celebration of the birth of Christ.
It reminds us of how long God's people waited for the arrival of the promised Messiah.
It reminds us that Jesus will return again, and that we ourselves should be prepared and ready.

My point being: the woman mentioned in the opening post, is not the only Christian who does not celebrate Christmas. I have known several that do not celebrate it

.
That's interesting.

Peace

[north_malaysian]

I've watched a Santa movie on Hallmark Channel last night (forgot the title)...

It's about Santa wanting his son to take over his job after 100 years of doing Santa thingy.... as usual .... is there is no Santa, there would be no Christmas... I mean... what the message that these film makers are conveying to the public? "No Santa, No Christmas"? How about Jesus?

Why a Turkish saint wearing a Coca Cola's endorsed red pyjama is more important than Jesus in Christmas?

[Yanal]

That Christian should be a Muslim the way he talks no one would guess, he is right they are man made celebrations and need to waste time or money in these celebrations.

[north_malaysian]

That Christian should be a Muslim the way he talks no one would guess, he is right they are man made celebrations and need to waste time or money in these celebrations.

he is actually a "she"...

She's very Christianic and try to follow the Bible 100%...

I dont think that she is interested in any other religions... and she's very conservative too...

In the last general election, she went door to door asking the people to vote for an Islamist candidate...

[Grace Seeker]

why add something Jesus didnt prescribe and the Apostles didnt need?

What is this need to try and "improve" your religion from what it was?

Not sure if this was directed at my post before it, or the thread as a whole. But I don't think that Christians have tried to add something that Jesus didn't prescribe, except of course there are lots of things that we do that Jesus didn't comment on one way or another. Some Christians think that if the Bible doesn't command it then it shouldn't be done, while others think that if the Bible doesn't outlaw it then it entirely premissable. There is a whole lot of room between those two points of view. You question presupposes the first point of view to be the only truly righteous way to follow Jesus, and I simply reject that interpretation of what God is seeking from us to be correct. There are hundreds of thousands of things never mentioned in the scriptures, and as long as they are used to bring glory to God then it seems to me they are indeed prescribed by Jesus, and certainly not proscribed. I don't call that "improving" my religion any more than the use of a loudspeaker, certianly not something prescribed by Muhammad, to make the call to prayer more easily heard is an "innovation" within Islam.

I find it weird... because .. I never heard of Christians not celebrating Christmas...

I wonder how many Christians are like her...

The Puritans, the Pilgrims, whole hosts of Christians never "celebrated" Christmas in the sense that people speak of it today. In fact the whole idea is fairly new, and I believe more of a creation by the secular world than by Christianity. I'll gladly email you a copy of last Sunday's sermon if you would like to read my sense of how it is that we as Christians ARE supposed to celebrate Christmas. (Hint: It doesn't have anything to do with how it is marketed in the world.)

I've watched a Santa movie on Hallmark Channel last night (forgot the title)...

It's about Santa wanting his son to take over his job after 100 years of doing Santa thingy.... as usual .... is there is no Santa, there would be no Christmas... I mean... what the message that these film makers are conveying to the public? "No Santa, No Christmas"? How about Jesus?

Why a Turkish saint wearing a Coca Cola's endorsed red pyjama is more important than Jesus in Christmas?

Yes, you've captured the message of the filmmakers. But remember few of them are actually Christian. As you said it was Coca Cola that created the modern day Santa. And it was a grave perversion of what it was that the old Turkish saint was truly about.

Bishop Nicolas was interested in giving of himself to make life better for others who were in desperate straights. His actions do a good job of reflecting his following after the Christ who offered himself as a gift to a fallen world. The idea of people receiving reward from some omniscient being who judges whether we are to receive blessings from him based on the degree to which we are "naughty or nice" and weighs each action of our lives in the balance does not sound Christian at all.

[KAding]

I've watched a Santa movie on Hallmark Channel last night (forgot the title)...

It's about Santa wanting his son to take over his job after 100 years of doing Santa thingy.... as usual .... is there is no Santa, there would be no Christmas... I mean... what the message that these film makers are conveying to the public? "No Santa, No Christmas"? How about Jesus?

Why a Turkish saint wearing a Coca Cola's endorsed red pyjama is more important than Jesus in Christmas?

IMHO, Christmas became more secular because society became more secular. Society didn't become more secular because Christmas is no longer about Jesus. This causality is important.

Christmas is now a diverse holiday and celebration, which appeals to broad segments in society. A good thing IMHO. I'm always confused by this constant desire by some to purify everything of anykind of custom or tradition that isn't rooted in their specific religion or narrow worldview. Our culture traditions are strengthened by such diverse influences. Christians can still remember Jesus during Christmas, yet I can also enjoy this time of the year.

[Grace Seeker]

Christians can still remember Jesus during Christmas, yet I can also enjoy this time of the year.

Most certainly you can enjoy this time of the year. But I would also submit that if you are not celebrating the birth of Christ, then you are actually celebrating something other than Christmas. You may stick the name Christmas on it, but it isn't. Just as "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is an insightful proverb; my own corrollary to that is "a rosebush that doesn't actually produce any roses is just a thornbush no matter the name."

Feel free to enjoy your Santafest all you want.

Oh, and I agree with this part of your post too:

IMHO, Christmas became more secular because society became more secular. Society didn't become more secular because Christmas is no longer about Jesus. This causality is important.

Far too many "Christians" are more nominal in their faith than anything else. They are quite happy to adopt a secular version of Christmas. I laugh at all of the hubub these folks make over saying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" or object to "Merry X-mas", but center their celebration of the birth of Christ around a tree under which one finds presents exchanged almost exclusively with loved ones, rather than like Christ himself did leaving the comfort of his eternal home and going out into the world, to the lost and forgotten, the outcasts, and those who had no one to love them, but with the news that God in fact did. Sometimes we Christians have a strange way of keeping Christ in "Christmas", but not in our lives.

[Kafir]

Your friend is right, these famous "christian" holidays are actually remnants of paganism. Christmas was originally the winter solstice. It was adopted by Pope Leo in 800 AD under the urging of Emporer Charlemagne, the leader of the Celt tribes. Tribal Europeans were unconvinced by Christianity and battled the Romans for nearly 1,000 years to keep them out. Under the deal in which the Pope wanted to bring western Europe into its empire, they assimilated pagan traditions with the belief it would make the transition easier on the people. To this day Europeans keep the holiday as an ancestral tradition, yet many Christians in America are not aware of its origins (they lost most of their cultural knowledge in being assimiltaed to America). Its why the tree, Germanic people were practioners of animism, many of their myths contained the ideology of deities residing in trees or "oak nodes". Its why the acorn is still a holy symbol among Almanian people. I'm a german, and I admitt despite being a Kafir I have a special place for these traditions because I know my ancestors practiced this ritual for nearly 8,000 years.

Easter is pagan also, but on the eastern side, specifically it was the fertility holiday of the Goddess Astarte which was a patron deity of Rome. Hence the fertility symbols like rabbits, painting eggs, etc. Its a celebration of the changing of the seasons when the sun returns to earth and the greens shed again.

Most pagan religions have a cyclical view of time and hence celebrate the natural cycles of the seasons and astral bodies. Its rich in animism, ancestral worship and polytheism.

If Jesus did indeed exist, then he would have really been born around September, as the Bible records he came soon after the Feasts of Terbanacle. His birth certainly would have nothing to do with the symbology of horned stags (reindeers) old men (santa claus) holly (fertility plant) or the myriad of other things we associate with Christmas.

[north_malaysian]

OK... for those who are religious Christians and celebrate Christmas as Jesus' Birthday... how do you celebrate it religiously?

Every year I watch midnite mass at Bethlehem... is that ritual is the only religious thing done on Christmas?

[syilla]

OK... for those who are religious Christians and celebrate Christmas as Jesus' Birthday... how do you celebrate it religiously?

Every year I watch midnite mass at Bethlehem... is that ritual is the only religious thing done on Christmas?

you should be prepare this christmas eve... something usually happens in sarawak or sabah. :exhausted

[north_malaysian]

you should be prepare this christmas eve... something usually happens in sarawak or sabah. :exhausted

huh? what usually happen there?

[Keltoi]

OK... for those who are religious Christians and celebrate Christmas as Jesus' Birthday... how do you celebrate it religiously?

Every year I watch midnite mass at Bethlehem... is that ritual is the only religious thing done on Christmas?

Not being Catholic I usually don't watch the Mass, although I have in the past. For most Protestant Christians it is a time of prayer and reflection. There are no grand rituals, in most cases.

[KAding]

Most certainly you can enjoy this time of the year. But I would also submit that if you are not celebrating the birth of Christ, then you are actually celebrating something other than Christmas. You may stick the name Christmas on it, but it isn't. Just as "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is an insightful proverb; my own corrollary to that is "a rosebush that doesn't actually produce any roses is just a thornbush no matter the name."

Fair enough. It is the way of the world apparently: traditions and customs evolve. First Christians "subvert" a pagan festival and now - centuries later - 'we' (materialists? secularists?) "subvert" the Christians celebrations and turn it into 'our' own. Note though, that for Christians personally this need not make Christmas less about Jesus. Everyone can celebrate a holiday as they like of course.

Feel free to enjoy your Santafest all you want.

Thank you :). Merry Christmas to you too! :)

Oh, and I agree with this part of your post too:
Far too many "Christians" are more nominal in their faith than anything else. They are quite happy to adopt a secular version of Christmas. I laugh at all of the hubub these folks make over saying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" or object to "Merry X-mas", but center their celebration of the birth of Christ around a tree under which one finds presents exchanged almost exclusively with loved ones, rather than like Christ himself did leaving the comfort of his eternal home and going out into the world, to the lost and forgotten, the outcasts, and those who had no one to love them, but with the news that God in fact did. Sometimes we Christians have a strange way of keeping Christ in "Christmas", but not in our lives.

Perhaps. But I wouldn't be surprised if this criticism is as old as the religion itself? It's not as if we, as humans, only now started become selfish :).

[Whatsthepoint]

Your friend is right, these famous "christian" holidays are actually remnants of paganism. Christmas was originally the winter solstice. It was adopted by Pope Leo in 800 AD under the urging of Emporer Charlemagne, the leader of the Celt tribes.

I'm a bit sceptical about this winter solstice thing. As far as I know orthodox Christians celebrate Christmas on January 7th and to my knowledge they use the unchanged Julian calendar, so Christmas must have originally celebrated Christmas more than 2 weeks after the solstice.
My two cents.

[Follower]

When the children were younger we celebrated St. Nicks Eve with them by having them put out their shoes and Santa would come and leave small gifts, a bit of candy.

For Christmas - attend church on Christmas Eve. At home we would sing Happy Birthday to Jesus and exchange just a few-3 gifts to demonstrate how GOD loves us, gives us gifts.

We still attend church on Christmas but the gift exchange is more of a family get together and dinner.

[suffiyan007]

the christian celebrate christmas actually a bidaah..and why christian celebrate christmas...is because of Santa claus or jesus? i dont think because of Jesus Christmas is just an event to celebrate a day for happiness...man made happiness...anD santa claus giving present....is a jesus born on 25th dec..and mary giving jesus lotsa present...that's nonsense...all jewish fake story...!

[Najm]

Peace.... I think the title is wrong!!!! It should be "A TRUE Christian Friend"

I read the first post and simply thought...Wow!!! That's a REAL Christian. A practising Christian.

She is a Muslim in the times of Isa ( Alayhi WaSalam).

Pre-Islamic period, by definition all Muslims (Submitted to one God) were Christians. Pre-Christianty periods, by definition all Muslims (Submitted to one God) were Jews.

She will find Islam very soon Insha'Allah

Peace to be all

[north_malaysian]

all jewish fake story...!

erm... what santa and christmas have to do with the Jews?

[north_malaysian]

Peace.... I think the title is wrong!!!! It should be "A TRUE Christian Friend"

I read the first post and simply thought...Wow!!! That's a REAL Christian. A practising Christian.

She is a Muslim in the times of Isa ( Alayhi WaSalam).

Pre-Islamic period, by definition all Muslims (Submitted to one God) were Christians. Pre-Christianty periods, by definition all Muslims (Submitted to one God) were Jews.

She will find Islam very soon Insha'Allah

Peace to be all

LOL.... the reason why i called her weird because I never heard of any Christians not celebrating Christmas...

But, sincerely .. I believe that she's trying to be a true Christian by following the bible 100%

[Grace Seeker]

OK... for those who are religious Christians and celebrate Christmas as Jesus' Birthday... how do you celebrate it religiously?

Every year I watch midnite mass at Bethlehem... is that ritual is the only religious thing done on Christmas?

As you can see from those who have responded already, different people are going to find different ways to do this.

In my house we begin by keeping Advent, a period of 4 weeks before Christmas. We have a simple Advent wreath in our house with 4 candles in it. When we gather for supper we light 1 candle each week and read some of the prophecies in scripture regarding Jesus' coming (both his first advent and his second coming).

There are varieties of special services leading up to Chrsitmas as well. Often there is a children's Chrsitmas program, a choir cantata (remember most Christians don't think that music is haraam), or something else. I also liked to teach my kids to give to others by giving something to the Salvation Army (even though they are a "competing" denomination I like to support their ministry), taking on the role of an "angel" for a family from our angel tree at the church, and singing carols to some of the shut-ins of our community. Then Christmas Eve we attend church together. I prefer the 11:00 PM candlelighting service that gets out at midnight, and on those few occassions where my church had an earlier service I would first attend it, and then go to another church that had the midnight service as well.

Christmas Day is actually rather quiet. We start the morning with getting up for breakfast (though not to early), then we gather around the tree and read the Christmas story from Luke 2. After that we open presents. When the kids were younger and we stayed home we often had a neighbor without any family join us. Now I'm a grandpa and we will travel to my daughter's. One of her traditions is to bake a cake and sing "Hapy Birthday, Jesus" with her kids.

One thing that many people fail to realize is that Christmas Day is just the first day of Christmas. There are 12 more days of Christmas till Epiphany on January 6, the traditional day when the Magi are supposed to have visited (though if you read the Bible closely you will see that this was probably 2 years later at a house and not at the manger where the shepherds visited). Many Christian traditions prefer to exchange gifts on this occassion and not Christmas Day.

[north_malaysian]

(remember most Christians don't think that music is haraam),

wait.... most Christians? which means there are small minority of Christians who think that music is haraam?

One thing that many people fail to realize is that Christmas Day is just the first day of Christmas. There are 12 more days of Christmas till Epiphany on January 6,

and then on January 7, the Orthodox start celebrating Christmas... :D.. I've seen Coptic Christmas service on the tv too...

[glo]

The Puritans, the Pilgrims, whole hosts of Christians never "celebrated" Christmas in the sense that people speak of it today. In fact the whole idea is fairly new, and I believe more of a creation by the secular world than by Christianity. I'll gladly email you a copy of last Sunday's sermon if you would like to read my sense of how it is that we as Christians ARE supposed to celebrate Christmas.

I'd love to read the sermon, Grace Seeker, if you could send it to me ...

Peace

[glo]

OK... for those who are religious Christians and celebrate Christmas as Jesus' Birthday... how do you celebrate it religiously?

For me the preparations for Christmas start with the beginning of Advent - the four weeks leading up to Christmas.
'Advent', according to the dictionary, means 'coming', 'approaching', 'arrive' - so we remember (and prepare for ) the coming of Jesus.

I read the Bible to remind myself how Jesus' coming was prophesied in the OT, and how long God's people waited and longed for the arrival of the Messiah.
I light the candles on the advent wreath to remind myself that Jesus is the light of the world, and that his birth brought light, hope and love into the darkness.
I prepare gifts and food for others as a reminder that in Jesus God gave us the greatest gift of all!
I try to prepare myself by spending time in prayer, stillness and reflection. I remind myself that this is not just about getting ready for the celebration of Jesus' birth - but that Jesus will come again, at an hour unknown, and that I should be prepared and ready for his return at every time.

On Christmas Eve my family will decorate the house.
We then go and visit neighbours and friends, bringing small (mostly home-made) gifts - cakes, cookies, jam etc, and wishing all a Merry Christmas.

On Christmas Day itself I will go to church.
At home we will exchange gifts amongst the family and sit down to a special meal.

On the second Christmas Day our church lays on a meal for those who are alone over the Christmas period. Volunteers will be busy collecting people, preparing and cooking the food, serving and entertaining the guests, etc.
I'm looking forward to it already.

Peace :)

[Whatsthepoint]

wait.... most Christians? which means there are small minority of Christians who think that music is haraam?

Hmmmm

[Grace Seeker]

wait.... most Christians? which means there are small minority of Christians who think that music is haraam?

Sure. I thought that was well-known. We don't use the words halaal and haraam, but there is a whole group of people known as non-instrumentalists. They are a very small portion of the total, but they reject the use of instruments because they don't find any mention of them in use in the New Testament and they believe that only what is specifically mention is permissible and everything else is proscribed. Makes flying on airplanes rather difficult for them as well.

I say the last in jest, because they actually do fly in airplanes, meaning I think this particular group is rather inconsistent in the way they apply their theology. But you will certainly find them scattered here and there around the USA, how far they are spread in the rest of the world (if at all) I don't know.

and then on January 7, the Orthodox start celebrating Christmas... :D.. I've seen Coptic Christmas service on the tv too...

But of course. As many have tried to use as a slam against Christianity, the date(s) for celebrating any of the events from Jesus' life are manmade. I don't apologize for that. We don't have a calendar from that era, a birth certificate, not even a death certificate. But people since then have thought these events rather important, so much so that they quit measuring time based on the reigns of various temporal kings and instead began to meausre time from the life of THE KING of KINGS.

Unfortunately, with the limited clues we have, coming up with that date is not something that there was uniform opinion about. So, as a result the estimation for the year of Jesus' birth is off, it is speculated, anywhere from 4-6 years. And the actual day of his birth have been arbitrarily chosen and placed at different times by different Christian groups.

Though the traditional date established by the Church in Rome has come to dominate, that is more of a product of the dominance of western culture in our world today than anything else. The Orthodox and Coptics have their own days of celebration on the calendar, and only those who are so ignorant or arrogant as to think that their own tradition was the only legitimate tradition would say that these others are wrong.

[suffiyan007]

erm... what santa and christmas have to do with the Jews?

in the bible....there're no stated jesus born on 25th Dec....and why we should said jesus born on 25th Dec....! and why we should celebrated like a feast when christmas.....and santa claus giving presents to the kids....and is that the Jews giving Jesus presents when he was born.....and 25th Dec actually a decade of dazzling...of Roman when on 25 Dec...that's why a Roman pilates and jews making lotsa fake stories that brainwashes the believers. thank u.

[suffiyan007]

When was Jesus Born?

Best Guess: September 29, 5 B.C.

Want the details? Read more below.

Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on December 25th, A.D. 0. Why?
When were shepherds in the fields?

Israeli meteorologists tracked December weather patterns for many years and concluded that the climate in Israel has been essentially constant for at least the last 2,000 years. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states that, "broadly speaking, weather phenomena and climatic conditions as pictured in the Bible correspond with conditions as observed today" (R.B.Y. Scott, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962, p. 625).

The temperature in the area of Bethlehem in December averages around 44 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) but can drop to well below freezing, especially at night. Describing the weather there, Sara Ruhin, chief of the Israeli weather service, noted in a 1990 press release that the area has three months of frost: December with 29 F. [minus 1.6 C.]; January with 30 F. [minus 1.1 C.] and February with 32 F. [0 C.].

Snow is common for two or three days in Jerusalem and nearby Bethlehem in December and January. These were the winter months of increased precipitation in Christ's time, when the roads became practically unusable and people stayed mostly indoors.

This is important evidence to disprove a December date for Christ's birth. Note that, at the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their flocks in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and sheltered them.

One commentary admits that, "as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which casts considerable light upon this disputed point" (Adam Clarke's Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, note on Luke 2:8).

Another study source agrees: "These humble pastoral folk are out in the field at night with their flock—a feature of the story which would argue against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted it" (The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1971, note on Luke 2:4-7).

The Companion Bible, Appendix 179 says:

Shepherds and their flocks would not be found "abiding" (Gr. agrauleo) in the open fields at night in December (Tebeth), for the paramount reason that there would be no pasturage at that time. It was the custom then (as now) to withdraw the flocks during the month Marchesven (Oct.-Nov.) from the open districts and house them for the winter.

The census described by Luke

Other evidence arguing against a December birth of Jesus is the Roman census recorded by Luke. "And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered... So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem..., to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn Son..." (Luke 2:1-7).

The Roman and Judean rulers knew that taking a census in winter would have been impractical and unpopular. Generally a census would take place after the harvest season, around September or October, when it would not seriously affect the economy, the weather was good and the roads were still dry enough to allow easy travel. According to the normal dates for the census, this would probably be the season of Christ's birth.

One author states that this census "could hardly have been at that season [December 25], however, for such a time would surely not have been chosen by the authorities for a public enrollment, which necessitated the population's traveling from all parts to their natal districts, storms and rain making journeys both unsafe and unpleasant in winter, except in specially favorable years" ("Christmas at Bethlehem," Holy-Days and Holidays, Cunningham Geikie).

Luke's account of the census argues strongly against a December date for Christ's birth. For such an agrarian society, an autumn post-harvest census was much more likely.
The year of Christ's birth

Jesus wasn't born in A.D. 0 either. In 525 Pope John I commissioned the scholar Dionysius Exiguus to establish a feast calendar for the Church.. Dionysius also estimated the year of Christ's birth based upon the founding of the city of Rome. Unfortunately because of insufficient historical data he arrived at a date at least a few years later than the actual event.

The Gospels record Jesus' birth as occurring during the reign of Herod the Great. Herod's death is recorded by Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus, Book 17, Chpt. 8) and occurred in the spring of 4 B.C. (New Testament History, F.F. Bruce, Anchor Books, p.23). Therefore, Christ's birth had to take place at least four years before the traditional date!

Jesus was not born on December 25, A.D. 0. [Actually there is no such year as A.D. 0. Our calendar jumps from 1 B.C. to A.D. 1 with no intervening year of zero.]
The celebration of Christ's birth in the the early church

In the first 200 years of Christian history, no mention is made of the calendar date of Jesus' birth. Not until the year 336 do we find the first mention of a celebration of His birth.

Why this omission? In the case of the Church fathers, the reason is that, during the three centuries after Christ's life on earth, the event considered most worthy of commemoration was the date of His death. In comparison, the date of His birth was considered insignificant. As the Encyclopedia Americana explains, "Christmas... was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth..." (1944 edition, "Christmas").

Speculation on the proper date began in the 3rd and 4th centuries, when the idea of fixing Christ's birthday started. Quite a controversy arose among Church leaders. Some were opposed to such a celebration. Origen (185-254) strongly recommended against such an innovation. "In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world" (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1908 edition, Vol. 3, p. 724, "Natal Day").

During this time eight specific dates during six different months were proposed by various groups. December 25, although one of the last dates to be proposed, was the one finally accepted by the leadership of the Western church.

A summary of the debate on the dates of Christ's birth appears in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church: "Though speculation as to the time of year of Christ's birth dates from the early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria suggesting the 20th of May, the celebration of the anniversary does not appear to have been general till the later 4th century. The earliest mention of the observance on Dec. 25th is in the Philocalian Calendar, representing Roman practice of the year 336. This date was probably chosen to oppose the feast of the Natalis Solis Invicti [nativity of the unconquerable sun] by the celebration of the birth of the 'Sun of Righteousness' and its observance in the West, seems to have spread from Rome" (1983 edition, Oxford University Press, New York, 1983, p. 280, "Christmas").

Around 200, when Clement of Alexandria mentioned the speculations about Christ's birthday, he said nothing about a celebration on that day. He casually reported the various ideas extant at that time: "And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also the day..., the 25th day of Pachon... Furthermore, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi" ("The Stromata, or Miscellanies," The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1986, p. 333).

Later, in 243, the official feast calendar of the time, De Pascha Computus, places the date of Christ's birth as March 28. Other dates suggested were April 2 and November 18. Meanwhile, in the East, January 6 was chosen, a date the Greeks had celebrated as the birth of the god Dionysus and the Egyptians as the birth of the god Osiris. Although pagans commonly celebrated the birthdays of their gods, in the Bible a birthday is never celebrated to the true God (who, of course, had no birth or day of origin).
December 25 popularized

In Rome December 25 was made popular by Pope Liberius in 354 and became the rule in the West in 435 when the first "Christ mass" was officiated by Pope Sixtus III. This coincided with the date of a celebration by the Romans to their primary god, the Sun, and to Mithras, a popular Persian sun god supposedly born on the same day. The Roman Catholic writer Mario Righetti candidly admits that, "to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, the Church of Rome found it convenient to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the birth of Christ to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honor of the 'Invincible Sun' Mithras, the conqueror of darkness" (Manual of Liturgical History, 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).

Protestant historian Henry Chadwick sums up the controversy: "Moreover, early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where first and by whom is not known) the celebration of December 25th, the birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date for the nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by a mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St. Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the westward-facing basilica" (The Early Church, Penguin Books, London, 1967, p. 126).

The Encyclopedia Americana makes this clear: "In the fifth century, the Western Church ordered it [Christ's birth] to be observed forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol [the sun god], as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed" (1944 edition, "Christmas").
Is there any evidence from the Bible that will help us fix the date and year of Christ's birth?

Actually from the Bible, we can at least determine the probable season and year of His birth. The most convincing proof of when Jesus was born comes in understanding the evidence that is presented in the book of Luke concerning the birth of John the Baptist.

Luke 1:5-17 says:

In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord. But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were getting on in years. Once when he was serving as priest before God and his section was on duty, he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to enter the sanctuary of the Lord and offer incense. Now at the time of the incense offering, the whole assembly of the people was praying outside. Then there appeared to him an angel of the Lord, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was terrified; and fear overwhelmed him. But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will name him John. You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He must never drink wine or strong drink; even before his birth he will be filled with the Holy Spirit. He will turn many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. With the spirit and power of Elijah he will go before him, to turn the hearts of parents to their children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Zechariah was of the division of Abijah (Luke 1:5,8). Back in King David's day, the priests had been separated into 24 turns or divisions. These turns began in the first month of the Jewish calendar (1 Chronicles 27:2), March or April of our modern calendar. According to Talmudic and Qumran sources, the turns rotated every week until they reached the end of the sixth month, when the cycle was repeated again until the end of the year. This would mean that Zechariah's division served at the temple twice a year.

We find in 1 Chronicles 24:10 that Abijah was the eighth division of the priesthood. Thus, Zechariah’s service would be in the tenth week of the Jewish year. Why the tenth week? Because all divisions served during primary feast weeks of the Jewish year. So all of the divisions of the priesthood would serve during Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread (the third week of the year). Likewise, all of the divisions of the priesthood would serve during the Feast of Weeks or Pentecost (the ninth week). Thus, the eighth course of the priesthood would end up serving on the tenth week of the year.

Now we must make an assumption here. Remember we said that Zechariah's division served at the temple twice a year. The Bible does not specify which of the two shifts of service it was. Regardless, nine months after one of the two dates John the Baptist was born. This would place his birth in March or September.

We will assume that Luke is recording Zechariah's first shift of service for the year. We will find that assumption tends to prove true as we discover the dates of John the Baptist's and Jesus' birth. Therefore, the date of Zechariah's service would be the Jewish date of Sivan 12-18 (See the Companion Bible, Appendix 179, Section III).

Picking up the story in Luke 1:23-25:

When his time of service was ended, he went to his home. After those days his wife Elizabeth conceived, and for five months she remained in seclusion. She said, "This is what the Lord has done for me when he looked favorably on me and took away the disgrace I have endured among my people."

After his service in the temple, Zechariah went home to his wife. Due to the laws of separation (Leviticus 12:5; 15:19,25), two additional weeks have to be counted. Now I don't know about you, but if an angel had told me that I was going to have a special child, I would get to it just as soon as the law allowed. So we will make a second assumption, that Elizabeth conceived a child two weeks after Zechariah's return.

Allowing for this and going forward a normal pregnancy places the birth of John the Baptist at the time of the Passover (Nisan 15)! The Jews always looked for Elijah to return on the day of Passover. Even in modern times there is an empty chair and a table setting for Elijah whenever Passover is celebrated. Little children also go to the door of the home and open it in anticipation of Elijah's coming. The Old Testament prophets had said that God would send Elijah before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 3:1; 4:5-6). According to these calculations John the Baptist was born at Passover. Remember the angel's words to Zechariah? The angel said that John the Baptist was to come "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17). Elijah came at Passover!

Continuing in Luke 1:26-36:

In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

The angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God. And now, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month for her who was said to be barren.

Luke tells us that Elizabeth was six months pregnant when the angel Gabriel visited Mary. The beginning of Elizabeth's sixth month would have been the celebration of the Jewish feast of Hanukkah, which occurs in December of our modern calendar. Hanukkah (Chanukkah) is known as the "Feast of the Dedication" (John 10:22) because it is connected with the dedication of the second Jewish temple and the rededication of the temple after the Maccabean revolt. Mary was being dedicated for a purpose of enormous magnitude: God's presence in an earthly temple, i.e. a human body (John 2:18-21).

If Mary did conceive on Hanukkah, John the Baptist would have been born three months later at Passover. And assuming a normal pregnancy of 285 days, Jesus would have been born on the 15th day of the Jewish month of Tishri (September 29 by modern reckoning). This is significant because it is the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot). It is a high day, a special Sabbath, a time of great rejoicing.
The Feast of Tabernacles and Jesus

As you have seen, the birth of our Lord can be reasonably shown to have occurred in the autumn of the year on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. The Feast of Tabernacles is a joyful feast. Jewish believers would build a tabernacle or booth known as a "sukkah" out of green tree branches. They would eat their meals and sleep in this sukkah for eight days.

There are some very interesting connections in Scripture with Jesus and aspects of the Feast of Tabernacles.

John 1:14 says:

And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. [literal translation of the Greek]

Look at what Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi has to say concerning this verse:

To introduce the nature and mission of Christ, John in his Gospel employs the metaphor of the "booth" of the Feast of Tabernacles. He explains that Christ, the Word who was with God in the beginning (John 1:1), manifested Himself in this world in a most tangible way, by pitching His tent in our midst: "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, as of the only Son from the Father" (John 1:14).

The Greek verb skenoo used by John means "to pitch tent, encamp, tabernacle, dwell in a tent." The allusion is clearly to the Feast of Tabernacles when the people dwelt in temporary booths. In his article "The Feast of Tents: Jesus’ Self-Revelation," published in Worship (1960), David Stanley notes that this passage sets the stage for the later self-revelation of Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles in John 7 and 8. Stanley writes: "The most basic clue to the mystery pervading this entire narrative [John 7 and 8] is provided by the symbolic action that gives this feast its name: the ceremonial erection of little bowers, made with branches of trees, in which every Jew was expected to live during the festival. These shelters were commemorative of the forty years’ wandering in the desert when Israel had lived as a nomad in such intimate union with her God. For John this dwelling in tents is a primordial symbol of the Incarnation: ‘Thus the Word became a mortal man: he pitched his tent in the midst of us’ (John 1:14). It is this insight which presides over the composition of John’s narrative which we are considering [John 7-8]. All that happened, all that Jesus said on this occasion has some reference to the Incarnation."

In seeking to describe the Messiah’s first coming to His people, John chose the imagery of the Feast of Booths since the feast celebrates the dwelling of God among His people. This raises an interesting question on whether or not John intended to link the birth of Jesus with the Feast of Tabernacles.

[from: God’s Festivals in Scripture and History Part II: The Fall Festivals, page 241.]

According to the Companion Bible, Appendix 179:

The word tabernacled here receives beautiful significance from the knowledge that "the Lord of Glory" was "found in fashion as a man", and thus tabernacling in human flesh. And in turn it shows in equally beautiful significance that our Lord was born on the first day of the great Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, viz. the 15th of Tisri, corresponding to September 29 (modern reckoning).

The Circumcision of our Lord took place therefore on the eighth day, the last day of the Feast, the "Great Day of the Feast" of John 7.37 ("Tabernacles" had eight days. The Feast of Unleavened Bread had seven days, and Pentecost one. See Lev. 23).

From The Seven Festivals of the Messiah by Eddie Chumney we read this:

As we have stated earlier in this chapter, the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles) is called "the season of our joy" and "the feast of the nations." With this in mind, in Luke 2:10 it is written, "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings [basar in Hebrew; otherwise known as the gospel] of great joy [Sukkot is called the 'season of our joy'], which shall be to all people [Sukkot is called 'the feast of the nations']." So, we can see from this that the terminology the angel used to announce the birth of Yeshua (Jesus) were themes and messages associated with the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles).

Light was also a prominent feature of the Feast of Tabernacles. At the end of the first day of the Feast, the Temple was gloriously illuminated. According to the Mishnah (Succah 5:2), gigantic candelabras stood within the Court of the Women in the temple. Each of the four golden candelabras is said to have been about 75 feet tall. Each candelabra had four branches, and at the top of every branch there was a large bowl. Four young men bearing 10 gallon pitchers of oil would climb ladders to fill the four golden bowls on each candelabra. And then the oil in those bowls was ignited. Picture sixteen beautiful blazes leaping toward the sky from these golden lamps. There was not a courtyard in Jerusalem that was not illuminated by this light (Succah 5:3).

According to Alfred Edersheim (Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, chpt. 8):

...the Court of the Women was brilliantly illuminated.... In connection with this we mark, that the term 'light' was specially applied to the Messiah. In a very interesting passage of the Midrash we are told, that, while commonly windows were made wide within and narrow without, it was the opposite in the Temple of Solomon, because the light issuing from the Sanctuary was to lighten that which was without.

This reminds us of the language of devout old Simeon in regard to the Messiah, as 'a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of His people Israel.'

John 1:6-9 says:

There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him. He himself was not the light, but he came to testify to the light. The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.

In these verses John refers to Jesus as "the light"; and as we have also seen, verse 14 says that he "became flesh and tabernacled [literal meaning of the Greek] among us". Since John chapter one is a passage about Jesus' coming, these verses could be references to the Feast of Tabernacles at which time Jesus was born.
Magi from the east

The Scriptures tell us that there were wise men (scholars) who came from the east looking for the birth of the Messiah, saying "we have seen his star in the east". Who were these scholars from the east? Why were they looking for a Jewish Messiah?

Matthew 2:1-6 says:

In the time of King Herod, after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, asking, "Where is the child who has been born king of the Jews? For we observed his star at its rising, and have come to pay him homage. When King Herod heard this, he was frightened, and all Jerusalem with him; and calling together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for so it has been written by the prophet: 'And you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who is to shepherd my people Israel.'" [cited from Micah 5:2]

Babylon was known as "the land to the east." At the time of the birth of Jesus, the largest Jewish population was actually in Babylon, not in Palestine! Nearly five hundred years earlier, the entire nation of Judah had been carried away captive into Babylon by King Nebuchadnezzar. Only a small colony of Jews returned to Palestine after sixty-three years of captivity. The greater number of them remained where they had established homes in the land of Babylon.

The Greek for "wise men" is magoi. Daniel was referred to by this same title (Daniel 4:9). The word is somewhat equivalent to the Jewish term "rabbi." It is possible that the wise men from the east were Jewish rabbis who had been anticipating the coming of the Messiah because of Daniel’s seventy weeks prophecy [Daniel 9:24]. They had spotted a new star in the sky and took it to be a sign of the coming of the Messiah.

At the very least, even if the wise men were not Jewish, they would have been influenced by Daniel's writings. At an earlier time, Daniel had been the Master of the Magians of Babylon (Daniel 2:48; 4:9; 5:11), so anything Daniel wrote would have been important to even Gentile magoi. Parts of the book of Daniel are even written in Aramaic (the international language of the eastern Gentiles), so that it could be read by them.
The star and the Feast of Tabernacles

There is one time of the year when Jews would typically look at the stars. That time was during the Festival of Tabernacles. As we already said, Jewish believers would build a tabernacle or booth known as a "sukkah" out of green tree branches. They would eat their meals and sleep in this sukkah for eight days. It was customary to leave a hole in the roof of the sukkah so that one could look at the stars. If the magoi were Jewish, then Jewish "wise men" celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles would have noticed the appearance of a new star.

Of course, if the magoi were Gentile, it is still likely that a new star would have been noticed by them rather quickly. The Babylonian magoi excelled at astrology. As a matter of fact, the Babylonians are generally credited with the birth of astrology.
The year of Jesus' birth

Jesus was born while Herod the Great was still living (Matthew 2:1). Wise men appeared in Jerusalem asking about "one who has been born king of the Jews?" Of course, this upset Herod, who had been given the title "King of the Jews" by the Roman Senate. Herod talked to the wise men secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared (Matthew 2:7). The wise men then journeyed to Bethlehem and found Jesus, Mary, and Joseph in a house (Matthew 2:11) and they bowed down and worshiped Jesus.

When the wise men did not return to give Herod a report, "Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the wise men. He was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the wise men" (Matthew 2:16).

This tells us that Jesus may have been born two years before the appearance of the wise men and the death of Herod. Herod died the spring of 4 B.C. (according to the Jewish historian, Josephus). Let's assume that the star appeared at Jesus' birth. Let's also assume that Herod was already close to death when the wise men appeared. It was the custom in ancient Israel to count the years of one's age from the date of conception - in other words, when a child is born he is one year old until his first birthday (this is still a practice in some oriental cultures). Therefore, Herod actually killed the children one year old and under according to the way that age is calculated today. This would mean that Jesus had to have been born in 6 B.C. (if Jesus was one year old) or 5 B.C. (if Jesus was under one year and Herod was just being extra careful).

This date for Jesus' birth fits with other Biblical data such as Jesus being "about thirty years old" when He began his ministry (Luke 3:23). From evidence given to us in John 2:20 about the construction of the temple, we know Jesus' ministry began in A.D. 26. Counting forward from 6 B.C. to A.D. 26 (one year has to be subtracted because there is no year zero) would make Jesus 31 years old when he began his ministry -- that is, about thirty years old. Counting forward from 5 B.C. to A.D. 26 would make Jesus 30 years old when he began his ministry. The birth years of 5 or 6 B.C. also fit with the best date for the crucifixion, that is A.D. 30. Personally I opt for the 5 B.C. date, because I assume the wise men would want to come at once and the time for a journey from Babylon to Jerusalem takes only four months.

When was Jesus born? Nothing is absolutely certain, because we are dealing with implications and assumptions, but a good guess from the Scriptures and history is September 29, 5 B.C. The moral of the story is, if it's in the Bible, you can take it to the bank. If it's not in the Bible,-- and December 25th is not,-- then you're taking your chances.
Sources of Information for this Article:

* The Biblical Festivals: God's Appointed Times from Hebraic Roots of Christianity by Eddie Chumney.
* The Gospel of Luke by William Hendriksen, Baker Book House.
* When was Jesus born? by Christian Renewal Ministries International.
* New Testament History by F.F. Bruce, Anchor Books.
* When Was Jesus Christ Born? by Mario Seiglie, The Good News, United Church of God, 1997.
* Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim, 1890.
* The Companion Bible, Published by Kregel Publications.
* God’s Festivals in Scripture and History, Part 2 by Samuele Bacchiocchi, PhD.
Available from: Biblical Perspectives
4990 Appian Way
Berrien Springs, MI 49103

The purpose of this article is NOT to suggest that we change the day of Christmas or the year of our calendars! It is to give added meaning and insight to our Lord's birth, particularly from a Jewish perspective. But shouldn't we celebrate Jesus' birthday on the correct day? If it really mattered to Jesus when we celebrate His birth, then He would have made the exact day crystal clear with absolute certainty. What we celebrate is far more important than the day we celebrate it one. For example, in the United States we celebrate Presidents Day in February, but this doesn't mean that all the presidents were born in February.

The essential fact is that God did enflesh Himself in time and space (1 John 4:2). He was born from a woman on a specific day in a specific year, walked among us, died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and ascended into heaven. This is what we celebrate at Christmas: God was (and is) with us!

[glo]

^
Goodness, Suffiyan. Posting a link would have been fine!! :D

Interesting article. Do you have a link to the source?

I suppose the final two chapters sum up the views of most Christians on this whole discussion:

The purpose of this article is NOT to suggest that we change the day of Christmas or the year of our calendars! It is to give added meaning and insight to our Lord's birth, particularly from a Jewish perspective. But shouldn't we celebrate Jesus' birthday on the correct day? If it really mattered to Jesus when we celebrate His birth, then He would have made the exact day crystal clear with absolute certainty. What we celebrate is far more important than the day we celebrate it one. For example, in the United States we celebrate Presidents Day in February, but this doesn't mean that all the presidents were born in February.

The essential fact is that God did enflesh Himself in time and space (1 John 4:2). He was born from a woman on a specific day in a specific year, walked among us, died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and ascended into heaven. This is what we celebrate at Christmas: God was (and is) with us!

Peace :)

[suffiyan007]

We cannot be sure, but Jesus might have been born on December 25th.

We can't be certain exactly when Jesus was born, but we celebrate His birth at Christmastime…or any day!

Many, many years ago, people believed Jesus was born on December 25th. Some of them found documents that said the date was correct, and others wanted to celebrate Christmas on that day in order to stop people from celebrating a pagan (evil) holiday on that day. However, many people today argue that Jesus was not born in the winter. Another interesting thing is we don't even know for sure what year Jesus was born. He may have been born in 6 B.C., 5 B.C., or 4 B.C.

God doesn't always tell us all of the details of what He did in the past. If He thought it were important for us to know, He would have told us in the Bible. What is important, though, is that Jesus was born and lived on the earth as a man, so He could die to pay the price for the sins of everyone who trusts in Him to be their personal Savior.

Bible Truth

* "'Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,' declares the LORD. Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people" (Zechariah 2:10-11).

* "But the angel said to them, 'Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; He is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:10-11).

* "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners – of whom I am the worst" (1 Timothy 1:15).

[suffiyan007]

When Was Jesus Born?
by John O. Reid
Forerunner, December 1994
Related

* Should a Christian Celebrate Birthdays?
* Born of a Woman
* Pagan Holidays—or God's Holy Days—Which?
* The Plain Truth About Christmas
* Cogitations on Christmas
* Celebrating Birthdays
* Who Were the Wise Men?
* Pagan Holidays
* Christmas, Syncretism and Presumption (1994)
* 'Behold, A Virgin Shall Conceive . . .'
* The Birth of Jesus Christ (Part One): Annunciation
* The Birth of Jesus Christ (Part Two): Nativity
* Celebrating a Lie
* Spirit and Truth
* Christmas Contradictions
* The Conundrum of Christmas Cheer
* The Rea$on for the Season
* A Sanitary Christmas
* Insinuating the Savior Into Paganism
* Christmas, Syncretism and Presumption

We are approaching the time of the year when the world celebrates the supposed birth of Jesus Christ. The jingles on the radio and television invade our sanity earlier every year, and the decorations now go up before Halloween! Anywhere we go, Christmas "cheer" is inescapable. For most of us, this is a season we struggle through, wishing it would rush by and be over.

Yet it is also a season that requires us to be on our guard. Since we do not celebrate Christmas, we often stick out in a crowd. Such a difference piques the curiosity of some, and they may ask why we do not keep it. If we respond, "Christ was not born on December 25," can we prove it? If He was not born on that date, then when was He born? What are the facts?

When this subject is broached, many Protestants and Catholics become quite emotional, often becoming firmly entrenched concerning the December 25 date in spite of the facts. Many simply enjoy the season and feel that the actual day of Christ's birth is irrelevant. Biblical and historical scholars are equally divided over this question as well. Christmas, however, is founded on the premise that Jesus was born on December 25, and a person who is truly striving to follow the Bible will see that the celebration of Christmas is based upon falsehood.

The Clues in Luke's Gospel

On the surface, the accounts of Matthew and Luke reveal little about the time of Jesus' birth. No dates are given, no season of the year is named. As a well-regarded historian, Luke, however, provides a sound, orderly account of the events that removes any doubt as to the general time of Jesus' birth. All the clues are there, and all that is required is to dig them out and put them in order to discover the truth.

In a long section covering Luke 1:5 through 2:8, Luke writes of a specific series of events in chronological order. He begins by telling the story of Zacharias, a priest, and his wife Elizabeth, who were childless. While administering his priestly duties during the course of Abijah, Zacharias was visited by the angel Gabriel, who told him that his prayers had been answered and that he and Elizabeth would have a son. They were to name him John.

Because Zacharias doubted that this would happen, Gabriel informed him that he would not be able to speak until the birth of his son. As soon as his service in the Temple was completed, he returned to his own house. Elizabeth soon conceived and hid herself five months, unsure of how her pregnancy would be viewed.

In the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, Gabriel visited Mary and informed her, "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a son, and shall call His name Jesus" (verse 31). Soon thereafter, Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth and stayed with her until the latter's ninth month, leaving just prior to John's birth. Jesus, then, was born approximately six months after John.

What information do we have up to this point?

» Zacharias, a priest, performed his duties during the course of Abijah.

» After he returned home from Jerusalem, Elizabeth conceived.

» Mary conceived in the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy.

» John was born approximately six months before Jesus.

The Course of Abijah

To date Jesus' birth, we need a starting point. Fortunately, Luke supplies one in mentioning "the course of Abijah" (Luke 1:5). Is it possible to know if this course existed then, when it fell during the year, and how long it lasted?

Indeed it is!

I Chronicles 24 lists the courses, divisions or shifts of the priesthood that served in the Temple throughout the year. Verse 1 states, "These are the divisions of the sons of Aaron." Among the sons of Eleazar were sixteen heads of their father's house, while among the sons of Ithamar were eight additional heads of house, making twenty-four courses (verse 4).

These courses of priests were divided by lot to be officials of the sanctuary and of the house of God (verse 5). Beginning on Nisan 1, these courses rotated throughout the year, serving in the Temple for one week apiece. The course of Abijah, the course during which Zacharias was responsible to work, was the eighth shift (verse 10).

Josephus, the first-century Jewish historian—who was, by the way, of the priestly lineage of the course of Jehoiarib, the first course—supplies further information about the priestly courses.

"He [David] divided them also into courses: and when he had separated the priests from them, he found of these priests twenty-four courses, sixteen of the house of Eleazar and eight of that of Ithamar; and he ordained that one course should minister to God [during] eight days, from [noon] Sabbath to [noon on the following] Sabbath. And thus were the courses distributed by lot, in the presence of David, and Zadok and Abiathar the high priest, and of all the rulers: and that course which came up first was written down as the first, and accordingly the second, and so on to the twenty-fourth; and this partition hath remained to this day" (Antiquities of the Jews, 7:14.7).

These courses were strictly followed until the Temple was destroyed in ad 70.

The Talmud describes the details of the rotation of courses, beginning on Nisan 1. With only twenty-four courses, obviously each course was required to work twice a year, leaving three extra weeks. (The Hebrew year normally has fifty-one weeks. Intercalary, or leap, years have an additional four weeks.) The three holy day seasons, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles, during which all the courses were required to serve, made up these three extra weeks. Thus, each of the courses worked five weeks out of the year: two in their specific courses and three during the holy day seasons.

John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Messiah (Malachi 3:1; Luke 1:13-17). The gospel accounts make it very clear that he was born about half a year before Jesus was born. From historical details in Luke's account especially, as well as the accuracy of the Seventy Weeks prophecy (see "Seventy Weeks Are Determined . . .," p. 2), it is clear that Jesus was born sometime in 4 bc. This means, counting back the nine months of gestation and the six-month difference in age, John must have been conceived in the first half of 5 bc.

This fact forces us to choose the first shift of the course of Abijah as the time when Gabriel visited Zacharias in the Temple. Frederick R. Coulter, in his A Harmony of the Gospels (p. 9), computes it this way:

In the year 5 bc, the first day of the first month, the month of Nisan, according to the Hebrew Calendar, was a Sabbath. According to computer calculation synchronizing the Hebrew Calendar and the stylized Julian Calendar, it was April 8. Projecting forward, the assignments course by course, and week by week, were: Course 1, the first week; Course 2, the second week; all Courses for the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread, the third week; Course 3, the fourth week; Course 4, the fifth week; Course 5, the sixth week; Course 6, the seventh week; Course 7, the eighth week; Course 8, the ninth week; and all courses [sic] the tenth week, which was the week of Pentecost.

Zacharias of the course of Abijah worked the ninth week in his assigned course and the tenth week in the Pentecost course, and this period ran from Iyar 27 through Sivan 12 (Hebrew calendar) or June 3 through 17 (Julian calendar). He probably returned home immediately after his shifts were completed, and Elizabeth most likely conceived in the following two-week period, June 18 through July 1, 5 BC.

With this information we can calculate Elizabeth's sixth month as December, during which Mary also conceived (Luke 1:26-38). It is probable, because of the circumstances shown in Luke 1, that Mary conceived during the last two weeks of Elizabeth's sixth month. Thus, John was born in the spring of 4 BC, probably between March 18 and 31. By projecting forward another six months to Jesus' birth, the most probable time for His birth occurred between September 16 and 29. It is an interesting sidelight that Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, is one of the two middle days of this time period.

Flocks in the Fields

There is additional proof that Jesus was born in the fall of the year. The census of Quirinius that required Joseph to travel from Galilee to Bethlehem would most probably have taken place after the fall harvest when people were more able to return to their ancestral homes (Luke 2:1-5). Besides, it was customary in Judea to do their tax collecting during this period, as the bulk of a farmer's income came at this time.

Another point is that Joseph and Mary had to find shelter in a barn or some other kind of animal shelter like a cave or grotto because the inns were full (verse 7). This indicates that the pilgrims from around the world had begun to arrive in Jerusalem and surrounding towns. Thus, the fall festival season had already commenced. There would have been no similar influx of pilgrims in December.

Also, as the shepherds were still in the fields with their flocks (verse 8), Jesus' birth could not have occurred during the cold-weather months of winter. Sheep were normally brought into centrally located pens or corrals as the weather turned colder and the rainy season began, especially at night. If this were not significant, it begs the question, "Why would Luke have mentioned it in such detail if not to convey a time reference?"

Notice what commentator Adam Clarke writes regarding this:

It was a custom among the Jews to send out their sheep to the deserts [wilderness], about the passover [sic], and bring them home at the commencement of the first rain: during the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As the passover [sic] occurred in the spring, and the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November, we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole of the summer. And as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which casts considerable light on this disputed point. (Clarke's Commentary, vol. V, p. 370)

Why is it important that we know when Jesus was born? We certainly do not use this knowledge to celebrate His birthday—He tells us to commemorate His death, not His birth (I Corinthians 11:23-26). The true date, however, destroys the entire foundation of the Christmas holiday. It also points to the proper time of His ministry, crucifixion and resurrection, helping to disprove the Good Friday—Easter Sunday tradition also. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, it renews our faith in God's Word—that it is true, verifiable and historically accurate.

In addition, we should know even these details so that we can provide common-sense reasons for our beliefs. We live in a world of compromise and confusion—especially in the realm of religion—and thus we must study and follow what is true so we will not be fooled by what is counterfeit. The Christmas season promotes a lie concerning the date of the birth of Jesus Christ. We need to do more than reject the world's explanation; we need to know, prove and follow what is true.

[suffiyan007]

hi sister Glo...u can go to www.yahoo.com... and www.google.com....just type

when was Jesus born?...u can find the article there....peace to be with u sister Glo....i miss u dear friend.. bye!

[malayloveislam]

wait.... most Christians? which means there are small minority of Christians who think that music is haraam?

and then on January 7, the Orthodox start celebrating Christmas... :D.. I've seen Coptic Christmas service on the tv too...

Oh dear, I had watched an Arabic movie from Egypt about a Coptic Christian family with the title Ma7ab Smaaya, I guess it means "Loving the Father" because Smaaya is a Syriac term. Father might metaphorically mean their Father the God or maybe the father in that Coptic Christian family.

The movie is about a father who is so strict, he don't even allow his family watching TV nor going to the Cinema. His 7 years old son, called Na3eem had been so fond and he really curious to know how does it feel in the cinema. The boy was secretly brought into the cinema by her maternal auntie after he had threatened to tell his grandmother that the auntie was dating her boyfriend in their house. The boy described his feeling like entering heaven, he described that the cinema attendants opening the cinema door as Ridhwan (the angel who guard paradise). The father too had disallowed his wife who was previously an artist from painting humanistic art, he had banned all sort of art from Europe and claiming those things as Bid3ah (invention) and haram, those things like riding bicycle and going to beach as haram and kafir. The father later died of heart attack because he thought that he had violated his religion after tolerating his family by buying a TV and died kneeling in front of the portrait of their god Jesus.

I think gosh, that father is like wa****s in Saudi Arabia or Lebanon. No offence though, I am a Sunnah follower from Syafi3i school of salaf. I am strictly observing and following what had been taught in glorious Quran and Sunnah too. I even agree with Saudi government in banning the pilgrims from South Asia and Turkey from doing acts which have not mentioned in Quran and Hadiths, I'm not a music person too just listening to the radio for information and getting updated with current news. I just do not agree that they are so super strict on certain cultural things and Muslims are of different geographical location and ethnicity. Of course some point of their culture is not mentioned in glorious Quran, we have to teach them to differentiate good and bad culture, and those bad cultures can be eliminated gradually.

[north_malaysian]

Oh dear, I had watched an Arabic movie from Egypt about a Coptic Christian family with the title Ma7ab Smaaya, I guess it means "Loving the Father" because Smaaya is a Syriac term. Father might metaphorically mean their Father the God or maybe the father in that Coptic Christian family.

The movie is about a father who is so strict, he don't even allow his family watching TV nor going to the Cinema. His 7 years old son, called Na3eem had been so fond and he really curious to know how does it feel in the cinema. The boy was secretly brought into the cinema by her maternal auntie after he had threatened to tell his grandmother that the auntie was dating her boyfriend in their house. The boy described his feeling like entering heaven, he described that the cinema attendants opening the cinema door as Ridhwan (the angel who guard paradise). The father too had disallowed his wife who was previously an artist from painting humanistic art, he had banned all sort of art from Europe and claiming those things as Bid3ah (invention) and haram, those things like riding bicycle and going to beach as haram and kafir. The father later died of heart attack because he thought that he had violated his religion after tolerating his family by buying a TV and died kneeling in front of the portrait of their god Jesus.

I think gosh, that father is like wa****s in Saudi Arabia or Lebanon. No offence though, I am a Sunnah follower from Syafi3i school of salaf. I am strictly observing and following what had been taught in glorious Quran and Sunnah too. I even agree with Saudi government in banning the pilgrims from South Asia and Turkey from doing acts which have not mentioned in Quran and Hadiths, I'm not a music person too just listening to the radio for information and getting updated with current news. I just do not agree that they are so super strict on certain cultural things and Muslims are of different geographical location and ethnicity. Of course some point of their culture is not mentioned in glorious Quran, we have to teach them to differentiate good and bad culture, and those bad cultures can be eliminated gradually.

I'm so going to watch this movie.... where did u watch it?

[malayloveislam]

I'm so going to watch this movie.... where did u watch it?

I watched it in Astro ART channel 111. I don't know whether the channel will replay it again. I tried to google up about this movie but to no avail I can't find it with with my roman font keyboard :exhausted.

[malayloveislam]

As you can see from those who have responded already, different people are going to find different ways to do this.

In my house we begin by keeping Advent, a period of 4 weeks before Christmas. We have a simple Advent wreath in our house with 4 candles in it. When we gather for supper we light 1 candle each week and read some of the prophecies in scripture regarding Jesus' coming (both his first advent and his second coming).

There are varieties of special services leading up to Chrsitmas as well. Often there is a children's Chrsitmas program, a choir cantata (remember most Christians don't think that music is haraam), or something else. I also liked to teach my kids to give to others by giving something to the Salvation Army (even though they are a "competing" denomination I like to support their ministry), taking on the role of an "angel" for a family from our angel tree at the church, and singing carols to some of the shut-ins of our community. Then Christmas Eve we attend church together. I prefer the 11:00 PM candlelighting service that gets out at midnight, and on those few occassions where my church had an earlier service I would first attend it, and then go to another church that had the midnight service as well.

Christmas Day is actually rather quiet. We start the morning with getting up for breakfast (though not to early), then we gather around the tree and read the Christmas story from Luke 2. After that we open presents. When the kids were younger and we stayed home we often had a neighbor without any family join us. Now I'm a grandpa and we will travel to my daughter's. One of her traditions is to bake a cake and sing "Hapy Birthday, Jesus" with her kids.

One thing that many people fail to realize is that Christmas Day is just the first day of Christmas. There are 12 more days of Christmas till Epiphany on January 6, the traditional day when the Magi are supposed to have visited (though if you read the Bible closely you will see that this was probably 2 years later at a house and not at the manger where the shepherds visited). Many Christian traditions prefer to exchange gifts on this occassion and not Christmas Day.

What is your sect of Christianity if you don't mind, sorry about curiosity. Wish you and other Christian friends Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

I believe Jesus nativity is either in August or in September because from what we have read in Glorious Quran, Surah Maryam no. 19 verse 23 (mother Mary), Jesus nativity happened under a date tree. Date tree usually bear fruits around August to November because it is Summer in Palestine. They do have some snow in certain area in Palestine/Israel. In Saudi area, if I'm not mistaken date tree flowers bloom around April (Spring), bear fruits around May, and starting to ripe around June (Summer) every year.

We Muslims had the tradition of eating dates as we follow the example of prophet Muhammad (pbuh), it is called as Sunnah. Dates is traditionally eaten to stimulate the health of women who gave birth to their babies, makes birth process easy, and for baby health. It also kills germs in the body.

Well, again the exact date is not important for us but his teaching is among the teaching revealed by God the same as what had been revealed to Moses (pbuh) and to Muhammad (pbuh) :).

[Grace Seeker]

What is your sect of Christianity if you don't mind, sorry about curiosity.

United Methodist. Generally considered one of the mainline protestant denominations.

Wish you and other Christian friends Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Thank-you. I sincerely appreciate your kindness in wishing me this. I would return the greetings, but I know that for many Muslims such a statement can be insulting. So, I wish you God's blessings in your life, a merry December (everyday of it, not just the 25th), and a Happy New Year.

Well, again the exact date [of Jesus' Nativity] is not important for us but his teaching

Very true. You will find all knowledgable Christians (who know that we really don't know when it was) in agreement with this part of your statement.

[Follower]

Thank you malayloveislam- Very nice of you!! This is such a joyous time for us.

We have had our usual neighborhood parties, for 30 years now!! - wonderful fellowship, great food, singing hymns, hugs all around. Tonight is the luminaria- we light candles in bags and line our sidewalks with them. This is an invitation/guide for the Christ child to enter our homes.

I think we can say Happy Holidays!!

[north_malaysian]

For those who celebrate Christmas.... have a nice and enjoyable festival with your friends and family members...

For those who dont celebrate Christmas but it's a public holiday in your countries...... have a nice and enjoyable holiday with your friends and family members...

[wth1257]

You admit that the tree isnt part of your religion but use it in ceremonies.

We assert that the Kaaba is PART of out religion and turn to it while praying.


You admit that you are adding something.

It's not really a religious ceremony. The tree is not part of Christianity theologically and if people got rid of it tomorrow it would not make a bit of difference. It's just a cultural practice. I'm sure the German pagans had a religious affiliation with the tree but the Christians hold no such affiliations towards it. It's just a German cultural thing that caught on. My Family is half German. Every Christmass my German grandmother would hide a pickle ornament on the tree and the children would find it. While this is part of the German celebration of Christmkass it has no religious dimension, it's just an old cultural tradition.

I guess it's like this. Say one day Muhammad was walking along and came upon the village. The village was pagan but they accecpted Islam after Muhammad preached to them. Anyway Muhammad finds out that they used red and green prayer mats for their worship, they want to worship Allah, but ask Muhammad if they can retain using their red and green prayer mats, as they are dearly beloved by the culture. If Muhammad allowed them to keep the red and green prayer mats for Salat would you say he was corupting Islam with paganism? I am not sure what your view is, but I would not. The red and green prayer mats are just incidental. They were once used by pagans but are now devoid of any pagan connotations in the mids of the villigers and they worship only Allah, not the pagan gods of their ancestors.

[Aqeel Ahmed]

:sl:
Your friend should be called Wise Christian Friend rather than wierd , she has a great open mind for her religion and her thoughts are also very true about the man made celebrations. :sl: