New & Eager to Understand More

[Troy]

Dear all,

I am new here. Personally I have no official religion, I came here with the hope to explore and understand more about Islam.

I have met many Muslims before, most of them are friendly and nice, some were even very hospitable to a stranger and foreigner like me while I was visiting their countries, because according to them, they felt that they had a duty to help a traveler, I was touched by that notion.

Similar to other religions, I think there are many different schools of thought in Islam as well, depends on how one interprets it. As there are many friendly Muslims out there, there are quite a number are linked to what Western media classified as "terrorists".

I have a few questions here (sorry if they are too straight forward but these are my doubts anyway):

1) In view of many terrorist attacks around the globe, many claimed to have linkages with Islamic organizations, what is the view of Muslim towards non-Muslims, should all the non-Muslims be killed? Why should Muslims judge others and put forth death sentence? Why the judgment is not carried out by God? who gave certain Muslims the right to judge and kill? I would consider it too self-centered and arrogant to speak and act in the name of God. Who are we to judge anyway?

2) Why Muslim women must put on veils, some even have to cover up the whole body? Sorry for my ignorance, my thinking is, if God created the human, why do we think that His creation is a shame or sinful to look at? Shouldn't we be proud of our bodies because they are the creation of God?

3) If God is all powerful and we are His creation, shouldn't be the Creator responsible for our faults? If I create a computer and it is not working well, should I blame the computer if it is not functioning well?

Please enlighten me.

Thank you.

Troy

[BlissfullyJaded]

Hi! Welcome to LI. I hope you have a wonderful stay here. :)

1) The actions of some are not the opinions of the majority, and if some feel they have the right to kill innocent people, that is not the Islaamic ruling. People do evil things in the name of religion and even cults, it is not limited to Islam. I do recognize that some of the major tragedies in the recent past have been attributed to Muslims, and it is indeed a sadness that Muslims would be driven to such deeds, and it is something which Muslims across the world have continuously denounced.

2) Being a Muslim girl myself, and one who covers completely out of a personal choice and not because anybody made me, I can safely say that we do not cover out of shame, but because we know we are too precious to be looked at by just any guy out there. It is enough for us that our fathers, brothers, and uncles can see us.

3) Our Creator has bestowed upon us free will, and that something which you did not exactly give the computer so the analogies don't match in my humble opinion. With free will comes the responsibility to own up to that which we do.

[Troy]

Thanks Jawharah for your reply.

1)

The actions of some are not the opinions of the majority, and if some feel they have the right to kill innocent people, that is not the Islaamic ruling. People do evil things in the name of religion and even cults, it is not limited to Islam.

I agreed with your opinion.

2)

we know we are too precious to be looked at

Why too precious to be looked at? If God created us as equal, why would one regards another as not worthy enough to look at them?

one who covers completely out of a personal choice and not because anybody made me

It is good to know that this is done by personal choice, actually where did this custom come from? Is it mentioned anywhere in Quran? Eg as I know in Iran all women are required to put on veil, even the non-Muslim women, what is the justification of that?

3) My thinking is, if God is all powerful and all knowing, everything is His creation, so even brutality, stupidity, frustration, envy, jealous etc are all different parts of the divinity, what we human are capable of feeling and doing should be within His knowing, if He gave us the free will to choose, by logic, He should respect our choice, why gave us the free will to choose but punish us if we choose otherwise? Sounds like I say to a kid, "I let you have the freedom to choose whatever you want to eat, but you should only eat this, if you eat something else, I will smack you." It just doesn't make sense to me.

Thanks.

Troy

[BlissfullyJaded]

If God created us as equal, why would one regards another as not worthy enough to look at them?

Did I say anybody was not worthy? Nopes. Girls can look at me, just not guys, cuz it's pretty much a universally known thing that most guys have one thing on their mind when it comes to girls, so why set myself up for that when there's a modest and safe route to take instead? And yes, I'm fully aware that men too should lower their gaze, but I'll concern myself more with what is actually in my own capability...

It is good to know that this is done by personal choice, actually where did this custom come from? Is it mentioned anywhere in Quran? Eg as I know in Iran all women are required to put on veil, even the non-Muslim women, what is the justification of that?

Yes, modesty and a woman covering is mentioned in the Quran, and that is not a personal choice (although I am happy to do it) but it is the command of Allah. Covering the face is not explicitly stated in the Quran, but the female companions of the Messenger of Allah (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) wore it and according to differing opinions some say it's obligatory based on today's circumstances and some say it's not... I hold the opinion that it is highly recommended.

Iran and Saudi Arabia do hold the opinion that it is obligatory. I do not know about Iran, but I'm almost certain that in Saudi Arabia in the American / British compounds the women are free to dress as they please. It is only when they are in the rest of the areas where they have to respect the law of the land and dress as all the other women do. That is their own decision and I respect their right to rule their country as they see fit as long as they are not harming anybody. Given that those laws are well known to the individuals before moving there I don't see it as oppressive, and there are many other countries in the Middle East as alternatives, such as UAE where western women are free to dress as they wish...

As for your latter points regarding free will, are you telling me that there should not be consequences for people who do things things contrary to what is expected of them? I guess you don't support laws set down by government? And do parents not set down guidelines for what they expect from their child, and if the child does not meet up to the expectations they face some sort of reprimand? Of course they do... The punishments are not there for the sake of tyranny, but rather to deter us from falling into that which harms ourselves.

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[Troy]

Thanks Jawharah again for your reply, it is actually great that we have the discussion here so that I will have a better understanding of how Muslims think.

Regarding your point,

Girls can look at me, just not guys, cuz it's pretty much a universally known thing that most guys have one thing on their mind when it comes to girls, so why set myself up for that when there's a modest and safe route to take instead?

That is just a general assumption, right? How can you know what exactly I am thinking? Actually as a guy I can tell you (only my own feeling and experience as I cannot speak for others), when I interact with my female colleagues or friends etc, I treat them much the same way as I treat others (male), it is just very normal way of interaction, talking, working etc, without much thinking of gender or sex, even sometimes we did joke, it was just a joke and we laugh it off or shrug it off. If I meet a girl that I like, I will express my feeling to her, if she accepts, we can start our relationship, if not, I will respect her decision. I think this is something very basic.

My personal opinion is that, the more people forbid me to do certain things, if that is in my nature, the more I will have the temptation and urge to do it (because the nature is suppressed). Just like if somebody tells me, don't open that closet, I will be tempted to open it, if nobody tells me so, I won't be so free to do it.

As for your latter points regarding free will, are you telling me that there should not be consequences for people who do things things contrary to what is expected of them? I guess you don't support laws set down by government? And do parents not set down guidelines for what they expect from their child, and if the child does not meet up to the expectations they face some sort of reprimand? Of course they do... The punishments are not there for the sake of tyranny, but rather to deter us from falling into that which harms ourselves.

I lead the life the way I want it to be, as long as I don't harm others,

i) I find it a scary idea that I will face the consequences if I do things contrary to what is expected of me. Why others should be so busy body to expect what should I do? Why don't they take care of their own lives only?

ii) Laws set down by government may not be just and good, that's why from time to time we see demonstration, changing of government etc.

iii) Parents may love their children, but they may not know what is best for them. If a child's interest, hobby, all his happiness is to be an artist, but the parents have the expectation of making him a doctor and insist so, do you think the child should fulfill his parents' expectation, do you think it is just and good for the child?

Sometimes I do need guidance and I will ask for it, sometimes in the whole world, only I will know what is good for me. Nobody can say otherwise because nobody can feel my feeling.

Troy

[BlissfullyJaded]

You're welcome and it is nice. :)

I didn't say all, I said most, and yes I know it is a general assumption, but when we all outside our homes, we don't know what random strangers are thinking, right? Therefore we do carry ourselves in a general manner. Not all guys are respectful of a girls space as you are, so we do what we have to do to protect ourselves from unnecessary interaction.

I'm not talking about random strangers making you face a consequence for your deeds, but God... God does intend a greater good for society with His laws... For example, has adultery really done wonders for society? Is it is really a positive thing for children to be born to teenage parents, and raised by a mother while their father has abandoned them before they were even born? Of course I know that in the USA they do now track down the father so he has to provide support for the child, but how psychologically positive is it for a child to grow up knowing that their father didn't really want to be a part of their life? God has given us the choice to fall into the sin, but he also gave us the strength to not... It is our choice and a matter of fighting temptation. It's not God's fault that we cannot always fight what we desire...

Regarding the parental thing, I was more talking about the consequences on a moral or social level. Not on a personal choice level. I agree that people should have the choice to decide the path they want in life, provided it is morally good. If the child wants to be an artist then that's wonderful, because through art a lot can be said about society and even reform society and I know that parents should be open to that. But, if the child takes up immoral artwork, then I do think it is in the child's best interests for the parents to sit down with the kid and communicate that such art doesn't benefit oneself nor society...

I am aware that not all people are the same, and some people seek out guidance and do not like it to be shoved down their throats. And I respect that. :)

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Greetings...

i agree with what sis Jawharah says about Muslim women covering up...

its not about showing off what Allah created, its a matter of protecting what Allah created...if a women is show off her body, she only brings the wrong attention...we don't know what men are thinking :skeleton: i dont mean to say that every guy who looks at a women, would necessary do so with lust, but why risk it?

i don't understand why a women-Muslim or otherwise-would want men looking at her with lust-and that's what they'll most likely do if shes uncovered..what are the chances of men looking at women and think "what a beautiful creation"...they're gonna look at her and most likely think otherwise... its just so degrading to have even one guy look at you like that...its just so wrong to think that women who are showed off are liberated when so many look at her with the wrong frame of mind...


to me, its derogatory (to the women) if a guy was to look at her lustfully,...and even worse the same guy will look at a hundred other women as well...+o(

i hope that answers your question...please forgive me if Ive said anything wrong :-[

[Troy]

Thank you Ramlah for your reply, I have a better understanding now about the thinking behind the veil.

Maybe I am used to other way of living, sorry for my straight forward and with all due respect, it did give me an impression that there is a possibility that guys in Islamic States, especially for those areas where putting on veil is a must, have a higher tendency to have burning lust towards women. I apologize because this is just my assumption and I don't have any data to support it, just by thinking in a logical way, if in my community there are 100 women, all are covered up with veils, I might be curious about how they look like and my nature is suppressed because I cannot look at this, cannot see that, so if suddenly one is unveiled, it will stir up quite a lot of surprises and imagination.

In other way, if in the community, veil is not a custom, everyday I see numerous women without veils, when I look at a woman, it is just plainly looking at another face, that's it, what is the big deal anyway? That becomes actually something very normal and we won't think so deeply into it, needless to say it will arouse us. Actually, in other cultures women might spend a fortune in cosmetics, hairstyle, clothing, hand bags etc etc and with all these still they may not successfully attract the attention of guys! :)

What I would think, and it would be great if I can have your opinion here as well, can this be a vicious circle that, the more a girl covers up, the more others want to see, the more others want to see, the more a girl feels threatened and afraid, so covers up even more, and on it goes.

I am not saying one should therefore expose everything, what I am saying is, just don't consider it as an issue, treat it as something very normal, that's all.

to me, its derogatory (to the women) if a guy was to look at her lustfully,...and even worse the same guy will look at a hundred other women as well...

I understand that it is uncomfortable. Maybe it is more serious at where you live, I don't know, but to me, the problem is with that guy, not you, and a society should not put this responsibility on women or let them live in fear. But again, this might be the vicious circle I mentioned earlier.

So what do you think about the Western or some other cultures, eg Japanese, Chinese etc where women are not putting on veil, what is your opinion about these societies?

Troy

[unknown_JJ]

I have met many Muslims before, most of them are friendly and nice, some were even very hospitable to a stranger and foreigner like me while I was visiting their countries, because according to them, they felt that they had a duty to help a traveller*, I was touched by that notion.

As there are many friendly Muslims out there, there are quite a number are linked to what Western media classified as "terrorists".

Welcome blaaaaad. Tek a seat n chillax ma homie. :-[

[- Qatada -]

Hey :)


here's a really good link to allow you to get useful answers from;

http://islamreligion.com


Maybe you can read through that site and then if you have more questions - ask here, or even in that chat box they have on the site. :) It's really useful.



Peace!

[Hamayun]

Welcome to the site. Hope you enjoy your stay :)

I think Sister Jawaharah summed up more or less everything I wanted to say.

Contrary to popular belief most women dress modestly by choice.

Peace :)

[mazhar_majhu]

ma'shallah sister Jawaharah,thanks for the answers that really made me know few things that i my self did not know till today..........All thanks to Allah...............

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Maybe I am used to other way of living, sorry for my straight forward and with all due respect, it did give me an impression that there is a possibility that guys in Islamic States, especially for those areas where putting on veil is a must, have a higher tendency to have burning lust towards women. I apologize because this is just my assumption and I don't have any data to support it, just by thinking in a logical way, if in my community there are 100 women, all are covered up with veils, I might be curious about how they look like and my nature is suppressed because I cannot look at this, cannot see that, so if suddenly one is unveiled, it will stir up quite a lot of surprises and imagination.

you would be curious, but not tempted...and that's the point of the Hijab, is not to tempt and draw the wrong attention (by wrong attention, i mean lustfulness, etc).
think of it like this...say you were presented with a jewelry box, and you were told it had a ring inside...BUT being covered and concealed by the box, one couldn't possibly have a desire or want that ring, because they don't know what it looks like...but if the ring was displayed in a glass cabinet or whatever, then it would be more pleasing to the eye, and you probably would want that ring because you now kow what it looks like.

so that burning desire you described isnt one of lust, but rather curiosity as you said...

and btw, just the fact that a women is covered modestly just shows the facts that she doesn't want to be seen, so i advice you to respect that and not even worry about what she could possibly look like...:thumbs_up

In other way, if in the community, veil is not a custom, everyday I see numerous women without veils, when I look at a woman, it is just plainly looking at another face, that's it, what is the big deal anyway? That becomes actually something very normal and we won't think so deeply into it, needless to say it will arouse us.

as you said it...

i doubt think all men would look at all women in "that way" but its just best to to risk it, and have the woman degraded in this manner :thumbs_up

Actually, in other cultures women might spend a fortune in cosmetics, hairstyle, clothing, hand bags etc etc and with all these still they may not successfully attract the attention of guys! :)
What I would think, and it would be great if I can have your opinion here as well, can this be a vicious circle that, the more a girl covers up, the more others want to see, the more others want to see, the more a girl feels threatened and afraid, so covers up even more, and on it goes.

threatened and afraid of what?...
firstly, its more threatening and frighting if she weren't modestly dress and have men look at her... she probably would be would find creeped out if she saw the attention she drew...

secondly, no...because they wanting to see her isn't a gaze of lust, just curiosity..

and speaking of curiosity, would you, the more someone tries and forces themselves into your home, would you be willing to let them in...for me, the more someone tried to do that, the more id let them burn in their curiosity:-[

i dont see how its any of their business what is inside my house..and i feel the more someone is curious to see what i look like, ifd get more scared of them, and want to even more stay concealed

I understand that it is uncomfortable. Maybe it is more serious at where you live, I don't know, but to me, the problem is with that guy, not you, and a society should not put this responsibility on women or let them live in fear.

i think its natural thing to be honest so i dont think he can be blamed for it. but what he can be blamed for is where his gaze wonders...dont think that only women have a responsibility to cover up...its also his responsibility to lower his gaze...

So what do you think about the Western or some other cultures, eg Japanese, Chinese etc where women are not putting on veil, what is your opinion about these societies?

honesty, i pity them (but at the same time feel quite sick) for feeling their liberated and independent,whereas in reality they are just seen as objects to every weirdo who cant lower his gaze...any self respecting women imo wouldn't (and shouldnt let herself be) seen as an object imsad...

[Troy]

Thanks Ramlah for your reply, as the title implies, I came here with the hope to understand more, thanks for giving me a chance to see the mentalities of both worlds.

I am not going to take sides here, but I can see, there is really quite different in perspectives between non-Muslims and Muslims.

It is great to have forum and discussion like this to promote the understanding , as far as I can see, most people have good natures, it is the misunderstanding that makes people consider others as so different and weird, honestly, if they think their way of living is so bad, most people will not live that way.

honesty, i pity them (but at the same time feel quite sick) for feeling their liberated and independent,whereas in reality they are just seen as objects to every weirdo who cant lower his gaze...any self respecting women imo wouldn't (and shouldnt let herself be) seen as an object

With all due respect, ironically this is the same way non-Muslims feel for Muslims, they pity them and at the same time feel quite sick, I think that is the misunderstanding we all need overcome.

As you can see, there are quite a lot of differences, minor or major, just give you one example, when you mentioned "lower the gaze", some other cultures may consider it as disrespect to the person, they prefer you to look straight into their eyes when you talk to them, which means you pay attention to them and take them seriously. These are different views and different perspectives, but only through understanding, then we can make the world a better place.

Thanks again.

Troy

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Troy, welcome to the forum, there are lots of helpful people here.

"I let you have the freedom to choose whatever you want to eat, but you should only eat this, if you eat something else, I will smack you." It just doesn't make sense to me.

I think you have a good analogy here, but it needs a different conclusion.

If you allow a child to eat only burgers, pizza, chips, candy and cakes, the child will eventually end up punishing themselves. With freedom to eat whatever we want to eat, and coming back for seconds and thirds, we overlook the responsibility we have towards looking after our body.

We might get away doing this for a few days, but it can easily become a habit that we have no control over. The parents do not have to smack us, we punish ourselves in a greater way.

I feel that when you read scriptures you need to search for a greatest good interpretation, which is not always obvious to us at first glance. Scriptures are a guide for life that we struggle with always one day at a time.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Troy]

Dear Eric,

I agreed with you. For that same reason I think scriptures should be read as a guide and taken as metaphors only.

Same thing applies to Bible. As far as I know, correct me if I am wrong, Prophet Muhammad intended the Quran to complete the previous scriptures, Torah and Gospels. All these should be read as a single narrative of human's relationship to God.

But as far as I can see, problems arise if we take it literally instead of metaphorically. That is when all the rules are set upon the followers and problems arise.

For what you mentioned, it is more like the karma in Buddhism, if we are dishonest, if we don't eat properly, if we don't follow the advices given, it is likely that bad things will fall upon us, they are just cause and effect. I can accept that with no problem. You reap what you sow.

What I oppose is, when the authority take a certain part from the scriptures and start to condemn and even give forth death sentence, eg, did you notice the two young homosexual guys were hanged in Iran a few years ago? Well, the scriptures as you say can be open for interpretation, in Bible you can almost take various parts out and see the contradictions, my stand is, who are we to judge? Let God do the judgment, I don't care who the authority is, they are just human like you and me, they can interpret the way as they like, they want to live that way is their freedom, but to judge others and dictate the fates or even take the lives of others according to their interpretation is just way too much.

Troy

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Troy;

I am not saying one should therefore expose everything, what I am saying is, just don't consider it as an issue, treat it as something very normal, that's all.

Maybe it is more serious at where you live, I don't know, but to me, the problem is with that guy, not you, and a society should not put this responsibility on women or let them live in fear.

You are right when you say it is the guy who has the problem and not the girl.
However if the guy with the problem decides to take any action it is the girl who will suffer.

The guy with the problem will walk away, there are far too many temptations in this world. Much of scriptures tell us how to deal with temptations, and how they can end up harming us.

Scriptures are very much about finding peace with ourselves, and peace with God in a greater good life after death.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and forgiving God.

Eric

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Hi new and eager:D


meet me - old and eager :D

[Troy]

Dear Eric,

Scriptures are very much about finding peace with ourselves, and peace with God in a greater good life after death.

One thing about scriptures, take Gospels as an example since you are Christian, can be more about the work of human rather than the work of God (sorry if this claim might not sound good to you). Look at the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were written at least 40 years after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. As Jesus spoke in Aramaic, but the Gospels were written in Greek, later translated into Latin and English. Hardly can translation be efficient enough to transmit the original meaning completely and fully, especially when some words have several meanings in one language but not in others, that is the limitation of language. Over the years as scribes copied them, many intentional alterations and unintentional mistakes were made along the way. Actually this phenomenon is common for all the old texts, the more popular the texts, the more copies it was made, the more mistakes and alterations it would have.

In addition, out of many other written Gospels, only four were chosen and included into New Testaments three hundred over years later. Who gave Athanasius the authority to determine which Gospels should be considered as "real" or "correct"?

At this present moment, what can be said is that we do not have the original words.

Based on this fact, we basically cannot substantiate Bible with Bible.

So, are we reading the words of man or the words of God?

Finally, even I ignore all the facts and claim that the words are indeed true and "without error". It is a risk to think that our understanding is "without error".

For these reasons, I hold my stand as opposing the authorities to use the Scriptures to judge, to dictate and control the lives of multitude.

Let God judge. Not human. If you believe in God.

Troy

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Troy,

Based on this fact, we basically cannot substantiate Bible with Bible.

So, are we reading the words of man or the words of God?

I cannot even prove to you that God exists, it takes a great leap of faith to say that I believe and trust that God exists fully and totally. It takes another great leap of faith for me, I believe that if God can create the universe and life, he also has the power to make sure that the Bible I read, is the Bible he intends me to read.

I am not a scholar, and I have heard most of the arguments about words lost in translation, the time it was written, questions about the authors, and contradictions. It still compels me to keep searching for a greatest good meaning, because I still trust it is what God wants me to read. It has been explained to me that the same messages are repeated and run right through the Bible, so even if you were to miss out some of the verses, you would not loose meaning.

I do not pretend to ever understand the word of God, I just trust it to be right for me.
I do not understand how or why the same God has inspired Muslims, Christians, Hindu and others

I do not want to side track your thread and you started of by asking questions about Islam, so I will leave it to my Muslim brothers and sisters to respond further

In the spirit of searching for one God

Eric

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Thanks Ramlah for your reply, as the title implies, I came here with the hope to understand more, thanks for giving me a chance to see the mentalities of both worlds.

im glad to be of help. do not hesitate to ask any further questions...

Greetings and peace be with you Troy;

You are right when you say it is the guy who has the problem and not the girl.
However if the guy with the problem decides to take any action it is the girl who will suffer.

The guy with the problem will walk away, there are far too many temptations in this world. Much of scriptures tell us how to deal with temptations, and how they can end up harming us.

agreed...

further replies to come, Inshallah (god willing) when i have the time :-[

[Ummu Sufyaan]

But as far as I can see, problems arise if we take it literally instead of metaphorically. That is when all the rules are set upon the followers and problems arise.

I disagree; problems arise when texts aren’t understood/implemented as meant to be, whether the intent was metaphorically or otherwise.
Also, could you give an example of a “problem,” as you have mentioned?

What I oppose is, when the authority take a certain part from the scriptures and start to condemn and even give forth death sentence, eg, did you notice the two young homosexual guys were hanged in Iran a few years ago? Well, the scriptures as you say can be open for interpretation, in Bible you can almost take various parts out and see the contradictions, my stand is, who are we to judge? Let God do the judgment, I don't care who the authority is, they are just human like you and me, they can interpret the way as they like, they want to live that way is their freedom, but to judge others and dictate the fates or even take the lives of others according to their interpretation is just way too much.

I don’t exactly understand what you mean by being judgmental. I’m not sure if your statement is regarding the Bible :? and if it isn’t, then can u expand on what you mean by being judgmental? I mean if God legislates the laws, then ultimately He is the one judging, we are just “executers” of His command, no?

As you can see, there are quite a lot of differences, minor or major, just give you one example, when you mentioned "lower the gaze", some other cultures may consider it as disrespect to the person, they prefer you to look straight into their eyes when you talk to them, which means you pay attention to them and take them seriously.

I understand that, I do. However, when push comes to shove, then you have to do what you have to do, and in this case, that’s to keep your gaze lowered. i mean its your faith first...

One thing about scriptures, take Gospels as an example since you are Christian, can be more about the work of human rather than the work of God

So, are we reading the words of man or the words of God?

Are you also referring here to the Islamic scriptures?