PDA

View Full Version : What Did Jesus Say About Christmas?



'Abd-al Latif
12-25-2008, 09:55 AM
The Christmas Experience

The perfect Christmas tree is bought. Adorned with ornaments and glittering with tinsel, it stands by the window. The stores are crammed with shoppers hunting for presents and the little ones anxiously waiting for Santa.

Busy with Christmas fever, wonder did you ever, did the Bible or Jesus made any injunction on Christmas ever?

Ponder upon the following analysis on Christmas, and the Truth will become clearer and clearer.

Does Christmas have Biblical Evidence?
The word 'Christmas' does not exist in the Bible. The Bible has closed lips on the entire feast of Christmas, with one exception, the decoration of a tree. The Bible itself criticizes the decoration of the (Christmas) trees:

"The customs of the people are worthless, they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel, they adore it with silver and gold, they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter" (Jeremiah 10-3,4).

European Pre-Christian pagans superstitiously believed that the green trees had special protective powers. In fact the use of the Christmas tree began only in the 17th century in Strasbourg, France and from there it spread to Germany, Britain and then to the U.S. "Tree worship was a common feature of religion among the Teutonic and Scandinavian peoples of northern Europe before their conversion to Christianity…German settlers brought the Christmas tree custom to the American colonies in the 17th century. By the 19th century its use was quite widespread". (Compton's Encyclopedia, 1998 Edition)

Was Jesus born on Dec. 25?

Neither the date 25th Dec. nor any other date on Jesus' birth is mentioned in the Bible. It was not until the year 530 C.E. that a monk, Dionysus Exigus, fixed the date of Jesus' birth on Dec. 25th. . "He wrongly dated the birth of Christ according to the Roman system (i.e., 754 years after the founding of Rome) as Dec. 25, 753". (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998 ed.) This date was chosen in keeping with the holidays already indoctrinated into pagans beliefs.

Roman pagans celebrated Dec. 25th as the birth of their 'god' of light, Mithra.

"In the 2nd century A..D., it (Mithraism) was more general in the Roman Empire than Christianity, to which it bore many similarities" (The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia, 1995 ed.

Other pagan 'gods' born on Dec. 25th are: Hercules the son of Zeus (Greeks); Bacchus, 'god' of wine (Romans); Adonis, 'god' of Greeks, and 'god' Freyr of Greek-Roman pagans.

What about Santa Claus?

If aliens descended on earth during the Christmas season, they would undoubtedly believe Christmas as being Santa's birthday. The words 'Santa Claus', appear nowhere in the Bible.

However, Saint Nicholas (Santa Claus) was a real person, a bishop, who was born 300 years after Jesus. According to legend, he was extremely kind and set out at night to bring presents to the needy. After his death on 6th of Dec., school boys in Europe began celebrating a feast day each year.

Queen Victoria later changed the celebration date from Dec. 6th to Dec. 24th eve.

Did Jesus or his Companions Celebrate Christmas?

If Jesus meant his followers to celebrate Christmas, he would have practiced it himself and enjoined it on his followers. There is no mention in the entire Bible that any of his followers ever celebrated Jesus' birthday like Christians do today.

"The church did not observe a festival for the celebration of the event of Christmas until the 4th century" (Grolier's Encyclopedia)

Thus we see that neither the Bible nor Jesus and his companions say anything about the celebration of Christmas which currently involves fanfare, commercialization, and extravagent spending, devoid of any spiritual relevance.

We'll now analyze the real person of Jesus (peace be upon him), in the light of the Bible and Islam.

What did Jesus Say about Himself?
In many places in the Bible, Jesus, referring to himself as a Prophet said:

"A Prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and in his own house" (Matthew 13:57),

"Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a Prophet persists out of Jerusalem". (Luke 13:33).

Jesus Received God's Revelation

Similarly, Jesus Christ too, as a Prophet, received revelations from God: "But now you seek to kill me, a man that had told you the truth, which I heard of God" (John 8:40)

Jesus Prayed to his God

"And when he (Jesus) had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray" (Matthew 14:23)

Obvious question: If Jesus was God, who was he praying to?

Jesus put himself Equal to other Humans

Jesus put himself equal to other humans in the eyes of God.

"My father and your father, my God and your God" (John 20:17)

God does not have a God, But Jesus had a God! Moreover, the gospel writers referred to Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) as the 'son of man' about 85 times in the Gospels, and never once did he explicitly called himself 'God', or 'God the Son', or 'The Begotton Son of God'.

Jesus Preached God's Oneness

Jesus Christ, as a true Prophet of God, taught monotheism. When asked, 'What is the first of all commandments', Jesus replied:

"...The first of all the Commandments is, Hear O Israel; the Lord our God is One Lord" (Mark 12:29)

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent" (John 17:3)

Prophets of God

God, by his mercy, sent numerous Prophets throughout history to all nations as guides and role models. Some of the prophets were Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus and the Last Prophet Muhammad (peace be on all of them). They all came with the same basic message, which is the Oneness of God, without any partners, sons or daughters.

This Oneness of God in its complete essence, preached by all prophets, was later distorted by some segments of humanity and naming these 'distortions' as 'religions', they left the worship of one true God and replaced it with worshiping humans, cows and fire. To purify humanity, God sent His last Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him) as a guide for all mankind and through him revealed in His last Messge, The Quran:

"They have adopted their scholars and monks as lords besides God and (also) Christ, the son of Mary, although they have been ordered to serve only God alone. There is no god but Him. Glory be to Him ! He is beyond what they associate (with Him)...." (Quran 9:31)

This utmost obedience and worship to one God, in its truest sense forms the basis of Islam. The entire Quran has been committed to memory by millions of Muslims around the world and preserved by God Himself from any interpolations, unlike previous scriptures, to provide guidance for all ages.

What Does Islam Teach?

Islam calls humanity to the service of the One, Omnipotent Creator ('Allah' in Arabic). Islam teaches the oneness of mankind in the eyes of God regardless of superficial differences such as race & nationality. In Islam there is no superiority of whites over blacks or vice versa. Anything that disrupts society's harmony and deviates humans from worshiping one true God is disliked in Islam. Thus Islam recognizes the evils of alcohol, drugs, premarital sex, gambling etc. and advises humans to stay sway from these Satan's handiwork. Islam further provides detailed instruction about a person's relationship with God, with his family and the society. Thus no aspect of a person's life is outside of the guidance provided by God.

Born Sinless!

Islam teaches that every child is born sinless with a pure heart and an inner instinct to realize the oneness of God. It is the parents or the environment that deviates this child to associate partners with God (in the form of multiple gods) or to reject God altogether.

No Mediator

There is no mediator between God and man. There is no need of one, for God, the All knowing, can listen and answer our sincere prayers regardless of our state and place.

Salvation comes through submitting to the pure belief in One God and following His guidance as revealed in the Quran, and not through the vicarious sacrifice (murder) of an innocent human being. Thus Islam is a rational religion based on justice and self accountability, and not on unjust and mysterious doctrines formulated by humans. Islam provides solutions to all the ills plaguing humanity. An example of Islam's stand on racial justice is provided below.

Islam Dispels Racis

One person's superiority over another is not based on his race, economic status or nationality but on his God-Consciousness and purity of character. God proclaims in the Quran:`"O mankind ! We have created you from a single (pair) of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other and not that you may despise each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is the most righteous..." (49:13).

Likewise Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) proclaimed: "No Arab has any superiority over a non-Arab, nor does a non-Arab have any superiority over a black man, or the black man any superiority over the white man. You are all the children of Adam, and Adam was created from clay."

After studying Islam, Malcolm X, became a true Muslim. He remarks:

"...America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem..."

The Quran was revealed in the Arabic language, but translations of its meaning are available in English and other languages for non-Arabs. Likewise Islam is not restricted to people of the east or Arabs, it is a universal religion revealed for all of mankind.

We invite all sincere humans to study Islam with an unbiased mind. Don't blindly follow the whims and paganistic influences of the environment around us. God bestowed upon us this superb mind to seek and live the truth; for we all will be accountable on the Day of Judgment for our beliefs and deeds. Don't delay your salvation.

Welcome to Islam!





http://www.islamhouse.com/p/52993
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
aadil77
12-25-2008, 10:07 AM
Christmas is just a huge mirage where christians think its some kind of religious celebration and a reason to get festive and just blow your whole years income on presents :D
Reply

Aqeel Ahmed
12-26-2008, 01:54 AM
:sl:
Very true it is a man made celebration that has no value but to buy gifts and spend time with family.:sl:
Reply

Zarmina
09-01-2009, 05:02 PM
Good info. Christmas in the US is seen as an economic stimulator. Many don't even know what it's really about.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Rabi Mansur
09-01-2009, 05:11 PM
Christmas is a great way to go in debt and mess up your financial status. It is kind of like Obama's stimulus checks.
Reply

rpwelton
09-01-2009, 05:11 PM
Even some Christians speak out against this "bid'ah" practice of celebrating Christmas.
Reply

13th Yarba
09-01-2009, 07:15 PM
Christmas is a very confusing event, as there are many layers of meaning and interwoven ideas behind it. in western culture there is a tradition of assimilating ideas and traditions from other cultures as and when they arrive.

It is believed that a traditional year end celebration has been held in the west for as long as it is possible to know. this would have been a pagan festival (pagans worship nature and their envirtonment) with no other purpose than to celebrate the end of one year and the beginning of another. The shortest day of the year is the 21st december (the winter solstice) and the celebration would have traditionaly been held at this time (for example at stonehenge built 6000 years ago or similar pagan sites which are constructed essentialy as giant calenders which help mark the correct time).

when the christians arrived they adopted this year-end celebration as their own and have added their own flourishes. Recently there has been a move away from the promotion of christmas as a christian event and more emphasis placed on multi-faith acceptance such as the 'Winterval' festivals.

any thing else is probably added as mentioned in a previous post as an advertisement for consumerism to boost the economy at this traditionaly slow time of year. there will always be those among us who will use any means to extract money from others.

i hope all can put aside their differences and celebrate with one another having survived another year and to look forward to the next year.
Reply

Rasema
09-01-2009, 07:24 PM
Assalamu ALikum

This is what used to frustrate me. In the past I saw Christianity as a sencier religion, when it actually is full of additions and subtractions. I questioned to why they permit all these additions, but they just give you a fairy tale to where and how did it come to be practiced. GRrrRr

Orthodox Christians celebrate it on a different month.
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
09-01-2009, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Was Jesus born on Dec. 25?

Neither the date 25th Dec. nor any other date on Jesus' birth is mentioned in the Bible. It was not until the year 530 C.E. that a monk, Dionysus Exigus, fixed the date of Jesus' birth on Dec. 25th. . "He wrongly dated the birth of Christ according to the Roman system (i.e., 754 years after the founding of Rome) as Dec. 25, 753". (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998 ed.) This date was chosen in keeping with the holidays already indoctrinated into pagans beliefs.

Roman pagans celebrated Dec. 25th as the birth of their 'god' of light, Mithra.

"In the 2nd century A..D., it (Mithraism) was more general in the Roman Empire than Christianity, to which it bore many similarities" (The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia, 1995 ed.

Other pagan 'gods' born on Dec. 25th are: Hercules the son of Zeus (Greeks); Bacchus, 'god' of wine (Romans); Adonis, 'god' of Greeks, and 'god' Freyr of Greek-Roman pagans.
An interesting discovery... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/ch...ers-claim.html

One should also remember that Allah (swt) ordered Maryam, alayhas-salaam, to shake the tree and eat the dates. However, fruits of the date palm are available only during summer, and in fact, if I remember right, a shaykh once said that they're only available during June and July.
Reply

wayseer
09-01-2009, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Rasema
Assalamu ALikum

This is what used to frustrate me. In the past I saw Christianity as a sencier religion, when it actually is full of additions and subtractions. I questioned to why they permit all these additions, but they just give you a fairy tale to where and how did it come to be practiced. GRrrRr

Orthodox Christians celebrate it on a different month.
Wa alaikum assalaam

Not really. There is a very good reason/s for Christians celebrating Christmas.

The 25th December is, in northern Europe, the time of the winter equinox - the time when the 'sun begins to 'return'. Do you pick up the meaning? After the 25th December, the sun begin to track back bringing with it an increasing amount of daylight and eventually spring and growth and the production of food.

So, the 25th of December is pretty symbolic in people's lives. It was the sign winter was passing - that the 'light' lay ahead - something to look forward to in the dead of winter. At this time the 'message' of the Gospel becomes meaningful - the coming of Light.

For Christians then, Christmas, is symbolic of the return of the Son - and therefore a time of celebration.

Of course the holiday has become commercialized but such acts of overt consumerism have nothing to do with Christianity.

If the author of the OP made a more enlightened study of Christianity he might find deeper meanings than just repeating what he has heard elsewhere.

Please do not use spurious arguments to justify your own beliefs.
Reply

Rasema
09-01-2009, 10:12 PM
Exacly,an unaccurate reason to how it become to be a practice.
Unaccurate because it's not by God.

O,sis, I wasn't arguing. I was just sharing an opinion.
Reply

Danah
09-19-2009, 12:11 PM
Very informative Post, Jazak Allah Khair brother for sharing

Originally Posted by wayseer
Wa alaikum assalaam

Not really. There is a very good reason/s for Christians celebrating Christmas.

The 25th December is, in northern Europe, the time of the winter equinox - the time when the 'sun begins to 'return'. Do you pick up the meaning? After the 25th December, the sun begin to track back bringing with it an increasing amount of daylight and eventually spring and growth and the production of food.

So, the 25th of December is pretty symbolic in people's lives. It was the sign winter was passing - that the 'light' lay ahead - something to look forward to in the dead of winter. At this time the 'message' of the Gospel becomes meaningful - the coming of Light.
What has that to do with the born of Jesus?

For Christians then, Christmas, is symbolic of the return of the Son - and therefore a time of celebration.
Return? what about the born of him? Do Christians celebrate the born of Jesus peace be upon him or his return?
Reply

Nyx-
09-24-2009, 06:44 PM
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus of nazareth/Jesus Christ(Peace be upon him).
It was created by the roman empire when formalizing the christian faith into its state religion. It was put on that date because of a pagan and roman festivals. as far as i know.
Unfortunately much of original Christianity has been changed to convert pagans and other cultures.

Thanks to over commercialism (and capitalism) it has ruined the true meaning of Christmas. Now children have their hearts full of greed and what 'prezzies' they can get from people.

Return? what about the born of him? Do Christians celebrate the born of Jesus peace be upon him or his return?
Christians celebrate his birth on christmas eve night and Christmas day. They celebrate the death and rebirth of Jesus(Peace be upon him) on easter.
Reply

glo
09-24-2009, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Danah
Return? what about the born of him? Do Christians celebrate the born of Jesus peace be upon him or his return?
On Christmas Christians mostly remember the miraculous birth of Jesus.

But we also remember that the arrival, life and death of Jesus was foretold in the prophecies of the Old Testament ... and connected with that we also remember that it is foretold that he will return at the end of time.

Christmas may seem quite superficial and commercial these days, but it is a profound celebration of the promise we received with the birth of Jesus.
Reply

جوري
09-26-2009, 03:34 AM
If you think Christmas is pagan and man made, check out the even more amusing Easter ..

completely borrowed from Persian culture..



egg offering to the king for Nowruz marking the vernal equinox..
Reply

Ramadhan
09-26-2009, 03:44 AM
I knew those easter eggs had to come from somewhere!

Christmas and easter celebrations are reminder how important it is to ensure that religion (deen) should be kept free from pagan rituals and other innovations (bid'ah).
If you are too lax with innovations, soon you get people praying to statues and idols and think crosses have magical powers.
Reply

جوري
09-26-2009, 03:53 AM
^^ that is in fact what has happened with Christianity, and just about every other religion. I am not sure why the concepts of statues and a human god is so important, almost like people can't stand to glorify God beyond the pagan ways of the ignorant ancients.. then they outgrow their idols and become atheists, or hang on to some symbolic form of the religion and have it take a backseat to everything else.. and then wish to extend that ignorance over to Muslims, so that they too innovate and reduce their religion to some relic that they can shelve and reach for only on holidays...

I think and Allah swt knows best it is exactly the reason why our days are fortified with Salat, charity and a month dedicated to fast and the journey of pilgrimage .. it is a constant renewal of your liege to Allah swt without reducing yourself to commercial gift giving!

:w:
Reply

GreyKode
09-26-2009, 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
^^ that is in fact what has happened with Christianity, and just about every other religion. I am not sure why the concepts of statues and a human god is so important, almost like people can't stand to glorify God beyond the pagan ways of the ignorant ancients.. then they outgrow their idols and become atheists, or hang on to some symbolic form of the religion and have it take a backseat to everything else.. and then wish to extend that ignorance over to Muslims, so that they too innovate and reduce their religion to some relic that they can shelve and reach for only on holidays...

I think and Allah swt knows best it is exactly the reason why our days are fortified with Salat, charity and a month dedicated to fast and the journey of pilgrimage .. it is a constant renewal of your liege to Allah swt without reducing yourself to commercial gift giving!

:w:
unfortunately, saint worship is leaking into Islam from right and left, indeed this the time of fitna. May ALLAH(swt) preserve this deen.
Reply

glo
09-26-2009, 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
If you think Christmas is pagan and man made, check out the even more amusing Easter ..

completely borrowed from Persian culture..

egg offering to the king for Nowruz marking the vernal equinox..
I wasn't aware of Easter eggs ever being used as 'offerings' in Christianity ...

Instead they are remnants of the old pagan religions, which celebrated the new life emerging with the coming of spring.
Since Jesus' resurrection demonstrates new life, and indeed the New Life we are offered through him, the old symbol of eggs seemed to fit the theme and stuck (and yes, hanging on to old symbols aided (rightly or worngly) the conversion of the followers of the old pagan religions)
Reply

glo
09-26-2009, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
unfortunately, saint worship is leaking into Islam from right and left, indeed this the time of fitna. May ALLAH(swt) preserve this deen.
We all do well to remember to look to GOD at all times. Nothing else should ever be of greater importance.
Reply

جوري
09-26-2009, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I wasn't aware of Easter eggs ever being used as 'offerings' in Christianity ...

Instead they are remnants of the old pagan religions, which celebrated the new life emerging with the coming of spring.
Since Jesus' resurrection demonstrates new life, and indeed the New Life we are offered through him, the old symbol of eggs seemed to fit the theme and stuck (and yes, hanging on to old symbols aided (rightly or worngly) the conversion of the followers of the old pagan religions)
is substituting old pagan religions to a new pagan religion better in your mind?

all the best!
Reply

جوري
09-26-2009, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
unfortunately, saint worship is leaking into Islam from right and left, indeed this the time of fitna. May ALLAH(swt) preserve this deen.
It is true.. I believe that is why the prophet (SAW) used to seek refuge from disease, poverty and ignorance, as they are all tied to great superstition and the pagan rituals of old..
When the war broke out in Lebanon and children were dying left and right, one woman lay by her dying daughter and said, her name is Zainab and I have pledged her to Saiida Zainab to take her.. astghfor Allah, but she was a really simple woman, that I wonder if folks are liable in their ignorance? or are we, for not teaching them right from wrong? Also she was a shiite so perhaps this is a common thing amongst them? :hmm:

:w:
Reply

glo
09-27-2009, 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
is substituting old pagan religions to a new pagan religion better in your mind?

all the best!
If you consider Christianity a 'new pagan religion', then your answer is No.
But then I would disagree with your statement that Christianity is a 'new pagan religion' altogether ... instead I would view it as a replacement of old pagan understanding of God with 'The Way, the Truth and the Life'. :)

As for you comparing Easter eggs with the Egyptian offering of eggs to their pagan gods, I think it is probably similar to me making a statement about 'Muslims worshipping the moon' (... which I wouldn't because I am better informed about Islam than that!)
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by glo
If you consider Christianity a 'new pagan religion', then your answer is No.
But then I would disagree with your statement that Christianity is a 'new pagan religion' altogether ... instead I would view it as a replacement of old pagan understanding of God with 'The Way, the Truth and the Life'. :)
I do indeed think Christianity is a new spin on old pagan rituals!
As for you comparing Easter eggs with the Egyptian offering of eggs to their pagan gods, I think it is probably similar to me making a statement about 'Muslims worshipping the moon' (... which I wouldn't because I am better informed about Islam than that!)
The Noruz is a Persian celebration of the vernal equinox in which indeed eggs are offered to the king symbolizing birth, spring and a new beginning, really has nothing to do with Egypt.. You should do some research about it, as it will indeed take the time to read what I have actually written so your disapproval is hits the mark?
Jesus didn't come up with Easter, where else would it have come from? just so your simile's have a point of well expressing a resemblance?

all the best!
Reply

glo
09-27-2009, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
You should do some research about it, as it will indeed take the time to read what I have actually written so your disapproval is hits the mark?
Jesus didn't come up with Easter, where else would it have come from? just so your simile's have a point of well expressing a resemblance?
The only thing I disapprove of is any suggestion that Christians offer eggs to the gods at Easter. Anybody who has even a basic knowledge of Christianity would know that that is not the case.

To suggest Christians offer eggs to the gods is - in my mind, and as I have mentioned earlier in this thread - as far removed from the truth as it would be to suggest that Muslims worship the moon god ...

If it was not your intention to suggest that Christians offer eggs to the gods at Easter, then I have misunderstood you and have wasted everybody's time. :)

Salaam
Reply

جوري
09-27-2009, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by glo
The only thing I disapprove of is any suggestion that Christians offer eggs to the gods at Easter. Anybody who has even a basic knowledge of Christianity would know that that is not the case.
I don't believe even you have basic knowledge of Christianity given the queries that baffle you about Islam of which you are mum at best when shown far worst in Christianity I call your attention of course to one of the threads you started in the mixed section!

To suggest Christians offer eggs to the gods is - in my mind, and as I have mentioned earlier in this thread - as far removed from the truth as it would be to suggest that Muslims worship the moon god ...
I have said that christians offer eggs to the gods? or rather did I assert that the practice of eggs for easter is all borrowed from the norwuz a pagan ritual, and the case is the same for Christmas? If Jesus asked you to perform these rituals and celebrate these holidays then please prove me wrong! Further, this is something that christians are happy about and celebrate.. you do indeed celebrate Easter and Christmas no?

let's compare to what Islam teaches:
(20) And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate yourselves not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate yourselves to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him.
( سورة فصلت , Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #37)

I fail to draw your desired conclusion.. The whole 'moon god' thing was invented by Christians to make up for their shortcomings and it is rather something you should direct to your churches and their founders as it has no basis in Islam.. Easter and Christmas pagan rituals celebrated in Christianity (yes) moongod is also invented by christians but failed to take hold with Muslims, your simile falls short!
If it was not your intention to suggest that Christians offer eggs to the gods at Easter, then I have misunderstood you and have wasted everybody's time. :)

Salaam
indeed

all the best!
Reply

Altair ibnu
09-28-2009, 04:45 AM
Before isa al-masih(jesus) come, romanian was a paganism.
Christian know that their religion is useless there(roma). Because paganism will kill them(christian) if christian is not match for them. So christian make a change, by using sun god reference(25th dec) to make paganism accept their religion.
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 04:52 AM
"And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him."Matthew 2:11
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Altair ibnu
Before isa al-masih(jesus) come, romanian was a paganism.
Christian know that their religion is useless there(roma). Because paganism will kill them(christian) if christian is not match for them. So christian make a change, by using sun god reference(25th dec) to make paganism accept their religion.
The dating of the nativity was based off an ancient tradition that the Annunciation occured on March 25th. Count nine months from that day and you get December 25th.

The more ya know!
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
"And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him."Matthew 2:11

DRB And entering into the house, they found the child with Mary his mother, and falling down they adored him; and opening their treasures, they offered him gifts; gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

DBY And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh

can't seem to agree.. people adore and pay homage alot no?.

John: Gilmore Nobody ran to the movies to see Shelley. She adored and worshiped Marilyn—Marilyn was her heroine, her goddess.

http://www.insidemarilynmonroe.com/Q8.htm

many human gods and goddesses from books written by nameless men!

all the best!
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
The dating of the nativity was based off an ancient tradition that the Annunciation occured on March 25th. Count nine months from that day and you get December 25th.

The more ya know!
ah except Jesus (p) was born sometime in early fall!


[Pickthal 19:23] And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
[Pickthal 19:24] Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
[Pickthal 19:25] And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
[Pickthal 19:26] So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.


as that is when dates grow in the 'Middle Eastern region' where your alleged God was born..

indeed the more you know!

all the best!
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 05:09 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
post deleted

ah except we don't venerate a black stone!
You should consult your pagan elders to teach you something valid about Islam so when you come arguing against Muslims, you will actually have something of substance to Impart.

During the building of the Ka'bah, Prophet Ibraaheem stood on a large stone block in order to complete the upper part of its walls. He used to move the block around the Ka'bah as he built it and on completion of the building, it was left outside the Ka'bah near the eastern wall and became known in later years as Maqaam Ibraaheem (the standing place of Ibraaheem). In Ibraaheem's time, the Ka'bah reached a height of 4.5 meters. It was rectangular in shape with a semi-circular back wall. Ibraheem built in it two doors at ground level and did not put a roof on it. He would come to Makkah once per year to perform the rites of Hajj with his family until he died. His son Ismaa'eel who had by then married a woman from the tribe of Jurhum, continued the tradition of Hajj and looked after the Ka'bah until he died.

http://www.tohajj.com/eng/Display.asp?f=hu200001

Muslims don't worship a black stone, and it is actually an object of little importance save symbolic value.. however, you do worship a man named Jesus as God, a man who was allegedly forsaken by his own-self the night after he prayed to himself in the garden of Gethsemane while debating on whom to pass the torch too Peter too forsake him three times .. Thus the man you allege is a god not only failed to uphold his commandments, his promise to his own self, but to even part from this world with disciples who can carry the torch, and thus you end up leaving it to dreams of born again charlatans who abrogated most of his commencements and doubting thomases and joan's of Arc etc etc..

good luck with all of that!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 05:15 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
can't seem to agree.. people adore and pay homage alot no?
So nothing wrong with prostrating to an infant out of adoration?

As for the translation: The Greek word "prosekunēsan" (προσεκύνησαν) means to worship (adore means the same thing.)
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
So nothing wrong with prostrating to an infant out of adoration?

As for the translation: The Greek word "prosekunēsan" (προσεκύνησαν) means to worship (adore means the same thing.)
I bent down to pick all my nieces and nephews as new born and found them absolutely adorable!

by the way, that is if I am to take anything in your bible with other than a grain of salt, I have already painted quite the realistic picture of exactly what happened on the alleged day of christ' crucifixion using none other than your bible(s)

There is no historical or common sense and I fear quoting me adoration/homage/worship-- won't really change things any..

yeah just so you know!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Muslims don't worship a black stone, and it is actually an object of little importance save symbolic value..
I didn't say you worship it, I said you venerate it, as did the pagans of the hijaaz.

I know you believe the kaba was built by Abraham but that's your personal belief.
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 05:24 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
I didn't say you worship it, I said you venerate it, as did the pagans of the hijaaz.

I know you believe the kaba was built by Abraham but that's your personal belief.
It isn't venerated, if it weren't in existence it wouldn't make one bit of a difference!

as for the Abraham/Ishmael issue.. as far as Christianity is concerned it is a personal belief. As for as Islam it is historical accuracy .. surprisingly also using your own bible -- which isn't able to sustain itself against the lowest credibility standards!

all the best!
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I bent down to pick all my nieces and nephews as new born and found them absolutely adorable!
Obviously for three men to prostrate infront of an Infant out of adoration (adore=worship) would contradict an Islamic understanding of Jesus, so I don't expect you to accept it, but that fact is according to the NT Christ was worshipped from birth. Even if you quibble about the translation of the Greek word, if Jesus were merely human those men committed Shirk.
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 05:29 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Obviously for three men to prostrate infront of an Infant out of adoration (adore=worship) would contradict an Islamic understanding of Jesus, so I don't expect you to accept it, but that fact is according to the NT Christ was worshipped from birth. Even if you quibble about the translation of the Greek word, if Jesus were merely human those men committed Shirk.
What is obvious seems so apparent to only you and purely on blind faith.. I wouldn't put the word 'fact' with anything christian and you know the sad thing is, I can tell you are trying to really milk this for all you can, while I sip on tea and watch Dr. G medical examiner!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 05:30 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
It isn't venerated, if it weren't in existence it wouldn't make one bit of a difference!
Do you know what the word veneration means? Because to encase a stone in silver, put it on public display in a sacred place, and then have thousands of people eagerly touch and kiss it seems a lot like veneration.

as for the Abraham/Ishmael issue.. as far as Christianity is concerned it is a personal belief. As for as Islam it is historical accuracy .. surprisingly also using your own bible -- which isn't able to sustain itself against the lowest credibility standards!
I'd say even as secular historians of no religious affiliation are concerned...
Reply

Sojourn
09-28-2009, 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
What is obvious seems so apparent to only you and purely on blind faith.. I wouldn't put the word 'fact' with anything christian and you know the sad thing is, I can tell you are trying to really milk this for all you can, while I sip on tea and watch Dr. G medical examiner!
Hehe, well at least you have a sense of humor despite trying to evade a straightforward reading of the text. You can always accept what it says and still claim some Christian forged it :)
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Do you know what the word veneration means? Because to encase a stone in silver, put it on public display in a sacred place, and then have thousands of people eagerly touch and kiss it seems a lot like veneration.
Do you understand what I meant when I wrote, if it weren't in existence it wouldn't make a difference all together? To kiss is considered an innovation and if you knew anything about tawheed or fiqh you'd realize, that, that is in fact disallowed. Its purpose is the starting point of the kaaba no more no less!

I'd say even as secular historians of no religious affiliation are concerned...
:lol: yeah, we have heard of the two of them, sad, how even that fails to avail you....

You know we have had many christians on board and for years.. I'd live for the day when one of you surprises me with something a little less... well... indoctrinated!

all the best
Reply

جوري
09-28-2009, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Hehe, well at least you have a sense of humor despite trying to evade a straightforward reading of the text. You can always accept what it says and still claim some Christian forged it :)
Yeah dude.. I found the Canterbury tales more consistent, I am yet to see you give a cohesive reply to the integrity of your bible and its authenticity for any English content or Latin.. *you know the language that Jesus spoke/the language of heaven* or was it Hebrew? or Aramaic? or Greek .. :hmm:

You need to look up 'fact' in the dictionary.. I don't think you are quite familiar with what it means and how to sustain it!

all the best
Reply

Sojourn
09-29-2009, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Do you understand what I meant when I wrote, if it weren't in existence it wouldn't make a difference all together? To kiss is considered an innovation and if you knew anything about tawheed or fiqh you'd realize, that, that is in fact disallowed. Its purpose is the starting point of the kaaba no more no less!
You're mistaken, kissing the black stone is not "bidah" or "shirk":

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:

'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667
Reply

جوري
09-29-2009, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
You're mistaken, kissing the black stone is not "bidah" or "shirk":

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:

'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667
I don't have time to look at the hadith in Arabic to see it word for word.. but it is unimportant, think this is the part you should have rather bolded .'you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone'

I fail to see how a stone that benefits nor harms anyone as per hadith, is akin to this:





you should try harder, you always seem to come up empty.. taking statues for gods me thinkus is far grievous than looking at an age old stone and acknowledging it for what it is .. just that!

all the best
Reply

paradise88
09-29-2009, 05:29 PM
Very good and interesting thread Masha'Allah. I ask so many people what is christmas why do u celebrate it and they answer with one word: Presents! Some do say they think it to be the day Jesus (pbuh) was born. Anyhoo its clear that the bible does not suggest the celebration of christmas at all yet people make it out like its a christian celebration. It doesn't make sense lol
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
10-22-2009, 12:15 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Walking around a cube and venerating a black stone are examples of Pagan rituals that Muslims still hold on too.
It's a stone and nothing more then that. It can neither hear nor see nor help us or bring us relief from distress. We do not take it as a god, an intecessor or an intermediary with god or anything of the sort. The great companion Umar came to the Black Stone and kissed it and then he said: "I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (:saws:) kiss you, I would not have kissed you."

I don't know where you got this myth from, but worshipping it something we certainly don't do.
Reply

Sojourn
10-22-2009, 04:31 AM
Peace Abd al Latif,

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I don't know where you got this myth from, but worshipping it something we certainly don't do.
My point was that Pagan practices can also be found in Islam, and I don't think anyone has claimed that you worship the blackstone, but it can be said that you venerate it.
Reply

aamirsaab
10-23-2009, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Peace Abd al Latif,

My point was that Pagan practices can also be found in Islam,
Name me one.

..and I don't think anyone has claimed that you worship the blackstone, but it can be said that you venerate it.
Venerate is quite simply the wrong terminology to use in this context; respect would be more appropriate.
Reply

OurIslamic
10-23-2009, 07:20 PM
He didn't say anything, it didn't exist while he was alive.
Reply

Sojourn
10-23-2009, 08:46 PM
Peace Aamir

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Name me one.
Circumventing the Ka'ba and venerating the Black Stone are practices that the Pagans of Mecca performed.

Venerate is quite simply the wrong terminology to use in this context; respect would be more appropriate.
Why is that more appropriate? The black stone is enshrined in silver, on public display in the holiest sanctuary of the Islamic religion, and the focus of ritual attention when Hajis walk by it to kiss it or touch it.


Take care,
Sojourn
Reply

aamirsaab
10-23-2009, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Peace Aamir



Circumventing the Ka'ba and venerating the Black Stone are practices that the Pagans of Mecca performed.
Please provide evidence that pagans did this and specifically WHEN. Sheik google only provides a list of hate sites, so I would very much like to know more about this ''pagan'' ritual.

Why is that more appropriate? The black stone is enshrined in silver, on public display in the holiest sanctuary of the Islamic religion, and the focus of ritual attention when Hajis walk by it to kiss it or touch it.


Take care,
Sojourn
Veneration 's meaning is too close to ''worshiping'' - which is only done to Allah, NOT the stone.
Reply

Sojourn
10-24-2009, 03:54 AM
Peace Aamir,

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Please provide evidence that pagans did this and specifically WHEN. Sheik google only provides a list of hate sites, so I would very much like to know more about this ''pagan'' ritual.
I'm actually surprised you are unaware of this Aamir. Surah 7 aya 31, according to Ibn Kathir, addresses the Pagan practice of going around the Kaba in barren clothes, or even naked:

"They said that this Ayah was revealed about the idolators who used to perform Tawaf around the House while naked."
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=17729

And here is a quote from the Sealed Nectar:
"People of pre-Islamic period, whilst believing in superstition, they still retained some of the Abrahamic traditions such as devotion to the Holy Sanctuary, circumambulation, observance of pilgrimage, the vigil on ‘Arafah and offering sacrifices, all of these were observed fully despite some innovations that adulterated these holy rituals."
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...s of the Arabs

The author of the above quote acknowledges circumbulation around the Ka'ba was performed by the mushrikin, but he attributes it to an Abrahamic tradition.

Veneration 's meaning is too close to ''worshiping'' - which is only done to Allah, NOT the stone.
Most Muslims I know don't distinguish between veneration and adoration but they are different. Western and Eastern Christians are familiar with this distinction. I think Fr John Hardon S.J.'s definition is sufficient and useful to explain this distinction:


ADORATION
The act of religion by which God is recognized as alone worthy of supreme honor because he is infinitely perfect, has supreme dominion over humans, and the right to human total dependence on the Creator. It is at once an act of mind and will, expressing itself in appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice.

VENERATION OF SAINTS
Honor paid to the saints who, by their intercession and example and in their possession of God, minister to human sanctification, helping the faithful grow in Christian virtue. Venerating the saints does not detract from the glory given to God, since whatever good they possess is a gift from his bounty. They reflect the divine perfections, and their supernatural qualities result from the graces Christ merited for them by the Cross. In the language of the Church's liturgy, the saints are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, as adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of his Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Spirit.
http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...x.cfm?id=37057
Reply

aamirsaab
10-24-2009, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Peace Aamir,



I'm actually surprised you are unaware of this Aamir. Surah 7 aya 31, according to Ibn Kathir, addresses the Pagan practice of going around the Kaba in barren clothes, or even naked:

"They said that this Ayah was revealed about the idolators who used to perform Tawaf around the House while naked."
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=17729

And here is a quote from the Sealed Nectar:
"People of pre-Islamic period, whilst believing in superstition, they still retained some of the Abrahamic traditions such as devotion to the Holy Sanctuary, circumambulation, observance of pilgrimage, the vigil on ‘Arafah and offering sacrifices, all of these were observed fully despite some innovations that adulterated these holy rituals."
[URL="http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch1s3.html#Religions of the Arabs"]http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch1s3.html#Religions of the Arabs

The author of the above quote acknowledges circumbulation around the Ka'ba was performed by the mushrikin, but he attributes it to an Abrahamic tradition.
Meaning, the pagans COPIED the Arabs. So the act of circumventing the Kaba is not a pagan ritual; it is an Islamic ritual (via connection to previous abrahamic faiths, all from the same God) that the pagans b*st*rdized. The Ayat concerning the wearing of adornments was then revealed to prevent further b*st*rdization and to correct the people.

Most Muslims I know don't distinguish between veneration and adoration but they are different. Western and Eastern Christians are familiar with this distinction. I think Fr John Hardon S.J.'s definition is sufficient and useful to explain this distinction:

ADORATION
The act of religion by which God is recognized as alone worthy of supreme honor because he is infinitely perfect, has supreme dominion over humans, and the right to human total dependence on the Creator. It is at once an act of mind and will, expressing itself in appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice.

VENERATION OF SAINTS
Honor paid to the saints who, by their intercession and example and in their possession of God, minister to human sanctification, helping the faithful grow in Christian virtue. Venerating the saints does not detract from the glory given to God, since whatever good they possess is a gift from his bounty. They reflect the divine perfections, and their supernatural qualities result from the graces Christ merited for them by the Cross. In the language of the Church's liturgy, the saints are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, as adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of his Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Spirit.
http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...x.cfm?id=37057
Some muslims may venerate it but that does not mean it is to be venerated in Islam - it is an act of Sunnah to touch the stone, but some muslims misunderstand this and take it too far (which can lead to veneration). It happens on Mt Hijrah as well, when people start praying towards the ''birth'' place of Adam [PBUH]. I know because I have seen it.

In either case they are both merely parts of Islamic history: important to be aware of but NOT obligatory (in relation to any rituals), so I again stand by my previous comment of venerating being innapropriate on this matter.

p.s; Birds do tawaf around the kaba - guess they are following pagan traditions too :p
Reply

Sojourn
10-25-2009, 04:19 AM
Peace Aamir,

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Meaning, the pagans COPIED the Arabs. So the act of circumventing the Kaba is not a pagan ritual; it is an Islamic ritual (via connection to previous abrahamic faiths, all from the same God)
The Islamic position is that Abraham is the source of these practices, and the Pagans simply continued them unknowingly. It is ultimately a position of faith, and serves to explain the continuation of these practices.

Some muslims may venerate it but that does not mean it is to be venerated in Islam - it is an act of Sunnah to touch the stone, but some muslims misunderstand this and take it too far (which can lead to veneration).
There is nothing wrong with veneration.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
10-26-2009, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Peace Abd al Latif,

My point was that Pagan practices can also be found in Islam, and I don't think anyone has claimed that you worship the blackstone, but it can be said that you venerate it.
If you have a dictionary then look up the meaning of words 'worship' and 'ritual' and you'll see what the difference is. There is a fine line between worshipping something and taking it as a god and treating something as a part of a package of practices performed to attain a single goal - coming closer to god.

The saying of 'Umar you quoted in your own post proves that even the companions of the Messenger of God see the stone as nothing but a stone.

Where then do you find this as a pagan practice and veneration of a rock?!
Reply

Sojourn
10-27-2009, 02:22 AM
Peace Abd-al Latif,

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
If you have a dictionary then look up the meaning of words 'worship' and 'ritual' and you'll see what the difference is. There is a fine line between worshipping something and taking it as a god and treating something as a part of a package of practices performed to attain a single goal - coming closer to god.
I'm noticing a common misunderstanding, and that is using the words "worship" and "venerate" interchangeably. Worship basically means to honor, and in contemporary English it has been narrowed to the supreme honor given to God because He has supreme dominion and all creatures are dependent on Him. But then there is a lesser form of honor that is given to Saints, Angels, and certain objects worthy of this honor (i.e. fragments of the true cross,) and this lesser form of honor is called veneration. The reason why veneration doesn't detract from the supreme honor given to God was already mentioned above.

The saying of 'Umar you quoted in your own post proves that even the companions of the Messenger of God see the stone as nothing but a stone.
You don't have to recognize an object as Divine to venerate it.
Where then do you find this as a pagan practice and veneration of a rock?!
I say it's a Pagan practice because Pagans were venerating the Black Stone even before Muhammad.


Pax,
Sojourn
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-18-2012, 09:35 PM
  2. Replies: 106
    Last Post: 03-24-2011, 04:11 AM
  3. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-22-2010, 11:20 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-25-2007, 09:08 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-02-2006, 04:24 AM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!