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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 01:55 PM
Israeli F-16 bombers have launched a series of air strikes against key targets in the Gaza Strip, killing at least 155 people, medical chiefs say.

Gaza officials and the Hamas militant group said about 200 others were hurt as missiles hit security compounds and militant bases across the territory.

The strikes, the most intense Israeli attacks on Gaza for decades, come days after a truce with Hamas expired.

Israel said it was responding to an escalation in rocket attacks from Gaza.

Palestinian militants frequently fire rockets against Israeli towns from inside the Gaza Strip; large numbers of rocket and mortar shells had been fired at Israel in recent days.

In a statement, Israel's military said it targeted "Hamas terror operatives" as well as training camps and weaponry storage warehouses.

In the West Bank, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas - whose Fatah faction was ousted from Gaza by Hamas in 2007 - condemned the attacks and called for restraint.

But Hamas quickly vowed to carry out revenge attacks on Israel in response to the air strikes, firing Qassam rockets into Israeli territory as an immediate reply.

At least one Israeli was killed by a rocket strike in the town of Netivot, doctors said.

"Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood," spokesman Fawzi Barhoum was reported as saying.

Israel also stood firm, saying operations "will continue, will be expanded, and will deepen if necessary".

It is the worst attack in Gaza since 1967 in terms of the number of Palestinian casualties, a senior analyst told the BBC in Jerusalem.

International reaction was swift and expressed concern, with many world leaders calling for calm and an immediate ceasefire.



Rising toll

A White House spokesman said the United States "urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza".

"Hamas' continued rocket attacks into Israel must cease if the violence is to stop," the spokesman, Gordon Johndroe, added.

The UK Foreign Office said: "We urge maximum restraint to avoid further civilian casualties."

The French presidency of the EU meanwhile called for an immediate halt to the shooting by both sides.

Reports of the casualties in Gaza mounted swiftly after news broke of the Israeli operation, in which at least 30 missiles were fired by F-16 fighter bombers.

Images from the scenes of strikes showed dead and injured Palestinians, burning and destroyed buildings, and scenes of panic and chaos on Gaza's crowded streets.

Residents spoke of children heading to and from school at the time of the attacks, and there were fears of civilian casualties, although no detailed information was available from hospitals.

Israel hit targets across Gaza, striking in the territory's main population centres, including Gaza City in the north and the southern towns of Khan Younis and Rafah.

Egypt opened its border crossing to the Gaza Strip at Rafah to absorb and treat some of those injured in the south of the territory.

Most of the dead and injured were said to be in Gaza City, where Hamas's main security compound was destroyed. The head of Gaza's police forces, Tawfik Jaber, was reportedly among those killed.

Reuters news agency said at least 20 people were thought to have died in Khan Younis.

Hamas said all of its security compounds in Gaza were destroyed by the Israeli air strikes, which Israel said hit some 40 targets across the territory.

The air strikes are the most intense Israel has launched against Gaza for some time, and come amid rumours that a ground operation is imminent.

Israeli security officials have been briefing about the possibility of a new offensive into Gaza for some days now, says the BBC's Paul Wood, in Jerusalem.

But most reports centred on the possibility of a ground offensive, and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was not expected to authorise any operation until Sunday at the earliest.

Although a six-month truce between Hamas and Israel was agreed earlier this year, it was regularly under strain and was allowed to lapse when it expired this month.

Hamas blamed Israel for the end of the ceasefire, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the blockade under which little more than humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza.

Israel said it initially began a staged easing of the blockade, but this was halted when Hamas failed to fulfil what Israel says were agreed conditions, including ending all rocket fire and halting weapons smuggling.

Israel says the blockade - in place since Hamas took control of Gaza in June 2007 - is needed to isolate Hamas and stop it and other militants from firing rockets across the border at Israeli towns.

www.bbc.co.uk
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 02:12 PM
Israeli warplanes have launched a wave of air strikes on Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip, killing and injuring scores of Palestinians.





Hamas, the Islamic militant group that controls Gaza, says 120 were killed and 400 people injured in the attacks on security compounds.




Israel said the strikes were in response to continued rocket fire by Palestinian militants against Israeli towns. (An obvious excuse by these bloody tyrants! May Allah humiliate them.).




The strikes, the most intense Israeli attacks on Gaza in recent times, come after the expiry of a truce with Hamas earlier this month.




Television pictures showed the wounded being rushed to hospital, while reports said the city's mortuaries were full.




A BBC reporter in Gaza says people are desperately seeking refuge, but he says there are no safe places.





Video of the murders:

Scenes of destruction in Gaza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7801012.stm
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 02:13 PM
Israeli missiles target Gaza




The Israeli air raids left trail of death
and destruction [Reuters]

Israel has launched air strikes on Hamas installations across the Gaza Strip, killing at least 155 people and causing heavy damage, according to officials and witnesses.

At least 30 missiles were fired at targets on Saturday, with the head of emergency services in Gaza saying that at least 200 people were also wounded.

Hours after the Israeli strikes Gaza fighters fired rockets into southern Israel, heeding to calls by Hamas and other affiliated Palestinian groups to avenge the attacks, unprecedented in their scale.

At least one Israeli was killed in the rocket fire, Israeli medics said.

Among those killed in Israel's massive offensive was Tawfiq Jabber, the Gaza police chief.

Islam Shahwan, a Hamas police spokesman, said the missiles hit a police graduation ceremony in Gaza City.

The Hamas-run interior ministry said all security compounds in Gaza have been destroyed.

'War crimes'

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president and leader of Fatah, condemned the "aggression" in Gaza.

Mousa Abu Morzouz, the deputy leader of Hamas, told Al Jazeera: "Until now the aggression didn't stop ... they are targeting all the police headquarters and offices.

"We will defend out people, we will retaliate against this aggression ... our military will retaliate."

Marzouz called on the international community to condemn the attacks: "Nobody in this world can accept what happened and the Israeli aggression ... [we expect] the international community to stand agasint this and say that it is not acceptable."

Mustafa Barghauthi, former Palestinian information minister, said; "This is not an attack on the Hamas. Its an attack on the whole population and the free will of the people of Gaza."

He accused Israel of committing "war crimes" and demanded that Abbas and his government stop all relations with Israel.

'Only just beginning'

The Israel army released a statement saying "terrorist installations" were hit and that all Israeli pilots returned unharmed.



Palestinian officials called on the international community to condemn the raids [AFP]

The operation against the Hamas is "only just beginning," Avi Benayahu, an Israeli military spokesman said.

The air raids follow the decision by the Israeli security cabinet to increase reprisals for cross-border rocket attacks against Israel, and the breakdown of a six-month-old Israel-Hamas truce earlier this month.

Hamas ended the ceasefire saying that Israel had violated the truce the truce by preventing vital food and medical supplies into the Gaza Strip.

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Gaza, said: "A series of explosions were heard over Gaza City.

"From where we are there are at least seven different clouds of smoke from the strikes.

"We are seeing some casualties being evacuated in cars."

Egypt has opened the Rafah border crossing with the Gaza Strip to receive injured people, Egyptian officials said. Ambulances have been dispatched to the crossing and two Egyptian hospitals emptied to take casualties.

Mohyeldin said that Hamas, who rule the Gaza Strip, was being held responsible by Israel for any attacks from the territory into Israel, even if they are undertaken by other Palestinian factions.

Jacky Rowland, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Jerusalem, said that Israel's decision to strike at this moment was down to Hamas withdrawing from the ceasefire and the intensified rocket fire coming from the Gaza Strip in recent days.
"In one day [in the past week] we saw 80 rockets ... which is a huge upsurge," she said.

Source:Al Jazeera and agencies
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 02:16 PM
Hamas had it comin' ...
It's a shame its usually the innocent Palis that suffer most.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hamas had it comin' ...
And whys that? I fail to see why an illegal occupation of 60 years and running is the fault of those who are fighting to regain their country.

Look into history, Palistine (now Israel) legally belongs to the Muslims. Its funny how the opressors can forget their opression, yet the opressed can never forget the opression they suffered at the hands of tyrants.
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Thinker
12-27-2008, 02:20 PM
Disgraceful, tragic, sad but (unfortunately) inevitable!
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
And whys that? I fail to see why an illegal occupation of 60 years and running is the fault of those who are fighting to regain their country.

Look into history, Palistine (now Israel) legally belongs to the Muslims. Its funny how the opressors can forget their opression, yet the opressed can never forget the opression they suffered at the hands of tyrants.
They're firing Russian rockets, how is that gonna achieve anything but Israeli retaliation?
I'm not a law expert so I wouldn't know to whom it legally belongs.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
They're firing Russian rockets, how is that gonna achieve anything but Israeli retaliation?
I'm not a law expert so I wouldn't know to whom it legally belongs.
Either way Israel is always made to seem like they are the ones under attack. Why in the world is someone gonig to blindly fire rockets when the minority are the ones who are in need of cease-fire rather then Israel.

Obviously, Israel - the big guys - are made to seem as the victim.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 02:38 PM
Israel was under attack and it fought back. They targeted Hamas. It's not Israels fault Hamas put their bases inside civilian areas.
Palis are the victims, no doubt about that. But the means they're using to fight Israel make them loose credibility.
Take a look at Tibet. 50 years of low tone non-violent resistance and almost the entire international community supports them.
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Omar_Mukhtar
12-27-2008, 03:07 PM
very sad terrorist attacks by the zionist regime.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Israel was under attack and it fought back. They targeted Hamas. It's not Israels fault Hamas put their bases inside civilian areas.
Palis are the victims, no doubt about that. But the means they're using to fight Israel make them loose credibility.
Take a look at Tibet. 50 years of low tone non-violent resistance and almost the entire international community supports them.
Then obviously there is more to what meets the eye.

Do you really believe an over-croweded and diminishing Gaza Strip and West Bank are going to be the first to attack a people who are backed by the west in terms of political support, weapons and men?

The scores of Palistinians that die through Israeli oppression are almost unknown by the masses and even if they are known, the media quickly points to the finger at the opressed. A prime example is a couple of years back when Israeli soldiers fired at a family killing them in Gaza and the only one survivor was a young girl who looked around 9 years old, screaming in horror at seeing the dead bodies of her parents, and yet the world made a big deal when Lebenon ceazed two Israeli soldiers who crossed their borders! And still who did Israel attack? Not the Lebenese soldiers because they didn't even have an encounter, they attacked the Capital of Lebenon killing woman and children, and it took over a month for the western countries to respond! They used the capture of their soldiers as a justified reason to massacre 1000's of woman and children through war planes, which meant there was no shelter for them because bombs were being dropped on their heads! Is this justice??

Apparently the blood of a single israeli is more precious then millions of Palistinains civilians - in particular woman and children - that die by Israeli war planes. And those who oppose these tyrants are called 'Terrorist Groups'!

Sit back and took a look at all the news channels have to say, and then ask yourself one question; Do you have a legal excuse to fight? And if you do, then are you going to fight a defencive battle or offencive one?
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Sit back and took a look at all the news channels have to say, and then ask yourself one question; Do you have a legal excuse to fight? And if you do, then are you going to fight a defencive battle or offencive one?
Both Israel and Palestine have the right to fight. The only difference is that Israel knows what its doing and Palis don't.
On one hand Palis seem to want the international community to help them and sympathize with them yet at the same time they are fighting a war that they know the west doesn't support, targeting civilians, firing rockets etc.
I don't know what to make of this.
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Cabdullahi
12-27-2008, 04:04 PM

Again, here is the problem. Israel is not attacking missile launchers. It is attacking the civil infrastructure of a government elected by the Palestinian people. The selection of targets is what gives away that the real agenda is to wreck Gaza rather than to stop the Qassams.

If Israel really wanted the Qassams to stop, they would give the Gazan police the equipment and supplies to hunt down the people shooting the rockets. Instead the Israelis are doing everything they can to make sure the Gazan police are unable to do anything at all. One has to wonder why that is?


http://whatreallyhappened.com

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/
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Cabdullahi
12-27-2008, 04:06 PM




The war in Gaza – a vicious folly of a bankrupt government







GUSH SHALOM

Bloodshed and suffering on both sides of the border could have been avoided

It is possible to return immediately to the ceasefire, make it stronger and firmer

The war in Gaza, the bloodshed, killing, destruction and suffering on both sides of the border are the vicious folly of a bankrupt government. A government which let itself be dragged by adventurous officers and cheap nationalist demagoguery, dragged into a destructive and unnecessary war which will bring no solution to any problem – neither to the communities of southern Israel under the rain of missiles nor to the terrible poverty and suffering of besieged Gaza. On the day after the war the same problems will remain – with the addition of many bereaved families, wounded people crippled for life, and piles of rubble and destruction.

The escalation towards war could and should have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased.

The cycle of bloodshed could and should be broken. The ceasefire can be restored immediately, and on firmer foundations. It is the right of Israel to demand a complete end to shooting on its territory and citizens – but it must stop all attacks from its side, end completely the siege and starvation of Gaza's million and half inhabitants, and stop interfering with the Palestinians' right to choose their own leaders.

Ehud Barak's declaration that he is stopping the elections campaign in order to concentrate on the Gaza offensive is a joke. The war in Gaza is itself Barak's elections campaign, a cynical attempt to buy votes with the blood and suffering in Netivot and Sderot, Gaza and Beit Hanun. Also so-called peace seekers such as Amos Oz s who give this offensive their support and encouragement could not afterwards shrug off responsibility.



http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...ciousfolly.php
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crayon
12-27-2008, 04:26 PM
I've been at school all day, only just heard about this now.
Here's an excerpt from one article I've read.

(discussing today's incidents, how hamas was firing rockets at southern israel, how israel retaliated)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...red-again.html
And then:
"However, they failed to stop all the retaliation. Late in the morning, an Israeli man was killed by a rocket in the Israeli town of Netivot. He was the first Israeli to die as a result of Palestinian rocket attacks since June."

So, let me get this straight. Palestinians shoot horrible dangerous rockets at israel many many times, and yet never manage to kill anyone (whether people are wounded or not, I don't know). In response to this, Israel blows up the town, killing 150 people (as of this moment), with a "kill 'em all and maybe apologize later for the several civilians who may be wounded.. after all, like 95% of the people we're targeting are terrorists, right?" motto.

Is this some kind of joke?
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Nablus
12-27-2008, 04:30 PM
Israel said the strikes were in response to continued rocket fire by Palestinian militants against Israel
every day Israel kill palestinian in West Bank ,Is it for the same reason?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


May Allah Give us patience
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crayon
12-27-2008, 04:36 PM
"The United States said Israel should avoid civilian casualties"

Aww, how sweet of them, that would be just fabulous.:skeleton::raging::enough!:

"Israel, which put communities around Gaza on a state of alert, warned that the deadly strikes were "just the beginning," said an army spokesman.
"The operation will continue and will be expanded as necessary in accordance with the assessments of the army and the defence establishment," Defence Minister Ehud Barak's office said.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said the Israeli onslaught was launched "following... the incessant attacks on Israeli citizens in the south of the country ..." in order to "bring the rocket fire to an end.""

Well yes, I'm sure once the population of palestinians dwindles down to a few thousand, there will be much less rocket fire.. At the rate they're being killed now, it won't be too long either, how awesome is that?!!

"Hamas is sworn to destruction of the Jewish state and has warned that it would retaliate to a major Israeli operation in Gaza by resuming suicide bombings inside Israel. The last such attack claimed by Hamas was in January 2005. "

Hey, if that happens, and Israeli civilians are killed, it only means that "Israel had it comin' ..", and it would be very "Disgraceful, tragic, sad but (unfortunately) inevitable!", right? So it's not Palestinians that are to blame, but Israelis themselves?!

/
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Amat Allah
12-27-2008, 04:37 PM
" A passing brief enjoyment (will be theirs), but they will have a painful torment."^^

"The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress men and rebel in the earth without justification; for such there will be a painful torment." ^^

[169] Think not of those who are killed in the Way of Allâh as dead. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision[170] They rejoice in what Allâh has bestowed upon them of His Bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.[171] They rejoice in a Grace and a Bounty from Allâh, and that Allâh will not waste the reward of the believers."

Aal Imraan ^ـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ــــ ـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ـــــ ـــــــــــــــــــ^
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Nablus
12-27-2008, 04:39 PM
White House spokesman said the United States "urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza".
All of the victims are civilians

The white House and Israel are the source of terror
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
"The United States said Israel should avoid civilian casualties"

Aww, how sweet of them, that would be just fabulous.:skeleton::raging::enough!:

"Israel, which put communities around Gaza on a state of alert, warned that the deadly strikes were "just the beginning," said an army spokesman.
"The operation will continue and will be expanded as necessary in accordance with the assessments of the army and the defence establishment," Defence Minister Ehud Barak's office said.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said the Israeli onslaught was launched "following... the incessant attacks on Israeli citizens in the south of the country ..." in order to "bring the rocket fire to an end.""

Well yes, I'm sure once the population of palestinians dwindles down to a few thousand, there will be much less rocket fire.. At the rate they're being killed now, it won't be too long either, how awesome is that?!!

/
Now now.
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nocturnal
12-27-2008, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hamas had it comin' ...
It's a shame its usually the innocent Palis that suffer most.

Hamas did not provoke this. Throughout the recent "truce", Israel violated it's obligations that it was a signatory to. It launched repeated and sustained incursions into Gaza and the West Bank, and maintained a crippling blockade turning a deaf ear to everyone in the international community, even the UN on whom the entire Gaza population depends. This is quintessential israeli policy, punish anything in Gaza that moves.

Remember all this is being done with tacit approval from Washington.
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crayon
12-27-2008, 04:45 PM
Oh, don't worry, I just added more.
I'm in a rage about this. I am seriously so upset right now I could just scream.
SCREW VIOLENCE, FROM WHICHEVER SIDE IT COMES FROM.

edit- i just realized that my anger and frustration is absolutely nothing compared to those actually involved in all this...imsad
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Amadeus85
12-27-2008, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hamas had it comin' ...
It's a shame its usually the innocent Palis that suffer most.
This is no my part of the world and not my war, but what i heard in my tv news, most of the victims were connected to Hamas and their military camps.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Hey, if that happens, and Israeli civilians are killed, it only means that "Israel had it comin' ..", and it would be very "Disgraceful, tragic, sad but (unfortunately) inevitable!", right? So it's not Palestinians that are to blame, but Israelis themselves?!
Palestinas are to blame, but Israel had it coming. The difference is that Israel is able to protect itself and its citizens form Palestinian retaliation and Hamas isn't. On the contrary, Hamas builds its bases and outposts in civilian areas as to prevent Israelis from attacking them - a technique proved to be useless several times before.
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crayon
12-27-2008, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
This is no my part of the world and not my war, but what i heard in my tv news, most of the victims were connected to Hamas and their military camps.
150 terrorists in one go, wow, Israel is getting good, isn't it?! It's even managing to get those sneaky little 5 year old Hamas officials, that's truly astounding..
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nocturnal
12-27-2008, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Oh, don't worry, I just added more.
I'm in a rage about this. I am seriously so upset right now I could just scream.
SCREW VIOLENCE, FROM WHICHEVER SIDE IT COMES FROM.

edit- i just realized that my anger and frustration is absolutely nothing compared to those actually involved in all this...imsad
Me too. Where are the Saudis, Egyptians, all the other member states of the Arab League now? it's sickening how treacherous despots like Mubarak can meet routinely with the israeli leadership when these are the sort of policies they implement.

The EU is in thrall of the US, so they won't say anything, if any of the poorer nations even attempt to say something, they'll be threatened with a termination of financial and humanitarian aid, coupled with sanctions, and if a resolution is drafted in the UN, it'll be promptly vetoed by the US. That's pretty much where we're at with this whole scenario. You have a nation that with impunity violates the most venerated tenets of international law and human rights all supported by an even more demonic regime in the US.
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nocturnal
12-27-2008, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Palestinas are to blame, but Israel had it coming. The difference is that Israel is able to protect itself and its citizens form Palestinian retaliation and Hamas isn't. On the contrary, Hamas builds its bases and outposts in civilian areas as to prevent Israelis from attacking them - a technique proved to be useless several times before.
They're living in a coastal strip of land with 1.5 million people in it. Given the size of the land and the population, even the most meticulous military planning cannot always determine locations for military operations that will totally rule out possible civilian casualties. That scenario has come about as a result of israeli policies.

Hamas is a resistance movement, they have every right to engage in that. Part of their doctrine is engaging in guerilla warfare, so that factors into it as well. It has to be seen in the broader context of the conflict, not in a narrow, twisted sense that depicts every resistance faction in Gaza as a group of callous blood thirsty zealots.
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Woodrow
12-27-2008, 05:08 PM
Perhaps the international community needs to be awakened to the fact that not all Palestinians are Muslim.

Gaza is composed of Muslims, Christians and Jews who all happen to be Palestinian.

I wonder if the world outcry would change if it was made known how many of the Palestinians killed are Christian or Jewish?


As recently as 1998 Gaza was only 67% Muslim the remainder being Christian and Jew.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that these Zionist attacks into Gaza have probably killed from 15 to 45 Christians and Jews.

Would the headlines bring a different world opinion if they Read:

"Israeli Attacks into Gaza kill 30 Christians"


That is probably a true statement.

Israel is anti Palestine, no matter what religion the Palestinian follows
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
They're living in a coastal strip of land with 1.5 million people in it. Given the size of the land and the population, even the most meticulous military planning cannot always determine locations for military operations that will totally rule out possible civilian casualties. That scenario has come about as a result of israeli policies.

Hamas is a resistance movement, they have every right to engage in that. Part of their doctrine is engaging in guerilla warfare, so that factors into it as well. It has to be seen in the broader context of the conflict, not in a narrow, twisted sense that depicts every resistance faction in Gaza as a group of callous blood thirsty zealots.
I completely agree, Hamas has the right to engage in whatever they want, but on the other hand, so does Israel, so Hamas must expect retaliations.
It is clear that the Mainstream Palestinian and Arab resistance in the past 60 years has proven utterly useless and has only brought civilian casualties and tougher Israeli control.
A proper Palestinian government should worry about the lives and wellbeing of its citizens.
As for there being no room in Gaza for military bases. I'm not sure about that. If its true its not a result of Israeli policies. Its the result of Palestinian demographics.
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AntiKarateKid
12-27-2008, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
They're firing Russian rockets, how is that gonna achieve anything but Israeli retaliation?
I'm not a law expert so I wouldn't know to whom it legally belongs.
The rockets are purely symbolic. Do you honestly expect a couple of blindfire rockets to do anything??? The Palestinians want their land back and this is a sign of defiance.

In your opinion 1 dead from rocket = 200 dead and injured palestinians?
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
The rockets are purely symbolic. Do you honestly expect a couple of blindfire rockets to do anything??? The Palestinians want their land back and this is a sign of defiance.
In your opinion 1 dead from rocket = 200 dead and injured palestinians?
Palis should have realized by now that rockets no matter what their purpose is have an adverse effect.
No, but that's what happened and both Hamas and Israel are responsible, Hamas more so.
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Thinker
12-27-2008, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Either way Israel is always made to seem like they are the ones under attack. Why in the world is someone gonig to blindly fire rockets when the minority are the ones who are in need of cease-fire rather then Israel.

Obviously, Israel - the big guys - are made to seem as the victim.
Can I know what you would have suggested they should have done? (had you been asked by the Israelis)

They ask you the question “how do we stop Hamas firing rockets over the border?” what would you advise?

This is not a rhetorical question I’d really like to know. And, for the record, I think the Jews and the Palestinians are as bad as each other.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 05:54 PM
Jews should not have come in the first place but now they're here and both parties committed atrocities both prior and after the foundation of Israel, so two state solution seems the only viable solution.
67 borders seem fair enough.
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Amadeus85
12-27-2008, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
150 terrorists in one go, wow, Israel is getting good, isn't it?! It's even managing to get those sneaky little 5 year old Hamas officials, that's truly astounding..
Actually according to tv news, 80 Hamas members were killed, the rest were civilians. On tv thez also said that since last 2 weeks Arabs keep firing long distance rockets at Israeli cities and over 70% of Jews in Israel wanted strong reaction and blamed the israeli goverment on lack of reaction.
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Amadeus85
12-27-2008, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Perhaps the international community needs to be awakened to the fact that not all Palestinians are Muslim.

Gaza is composed of Muslims, Christians and Jews who all happen to be Palestinian.

I wonder if the world outcry would change if it was made known how many of the Palestinians killed are Christian or Jewish?


As recently as 1998 Gaza was only 67% Muslim the remainder being Christian and Jew.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that these Zionist attacks into Gaza have probably killed from 15 to 45 Christians and Jews.

Would the headlines bring a different world opinion if they Read:

"Israeli Attacks into Gaza kill 30 Christians"


That is probably a true statement.

Israel is anti Palestine, no matter what religion the Palestinian follows
On the other hand, when Hamas or Islamic Jihad shots a rocket in Israel there is 20% of chance that they will kill an Arab(mostly muslim). What you think about that?
Second, nowadays 97% of Gaza citizens are muslims, the christians in majority left in last decade.
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Mr. Sandman
12-27-2008, 06:15 PM
Surely Hamas knew this was going to happen.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 07:27 PM
Look what is happening in Gaza...are all of these people are terrorists??!! if yes, this should lead to redefine what terrorist is.

This video from BBC website

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aadil77
12-27-2008, 08:12 PM
Nine Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets fired from Gaza since it withdrew all settlers and soldiers from the territory in September 2005.

Over the same period, at least 1,400 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli security forces in Gaza, according to figures compiled by B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-hundreds.html

This bit ticks me of so much, why do these guys have to continue with the crap rocket attacks, they fire hundreds of rockets and acheive absolutely nothing, and in the end the hundreds of innocent muslims lose their lives because of it.

Yes they lost their land, but they acheive nothing with their rocket attacks accept getting more muslims killed, their own rockets have misfired and killed palestinians
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Anette
12-27-2008, 08:29 PM
This is totally out of proportions. The attack is not only wrong it is too much, too hard, too cunning. It’s like using dynamite in order to kill mosquitoes. In Swedish media they think it has something to do with the fact that the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, wants to advance his positions in the upcoming election in February.

My thoughts are with the suffering families.
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Thinker
12-27-2008, 08:46 PM
I asked myself the question – what do the Palestinains want; what does Hamas want; why did Arafat turn down the deal brokered by Clinton in 2000, which would have given the Palestinians most of what they had been asking for?

I have spent the last few hours on the internet trying to find the answer and have concluded that they don’t know what they want short of driving all the Jews out of what is now called Israel and will accept nothing less. Of course that’s not going to happen not least because the Jews have been the owners of what is now Israel and much more since Solomon (3,000 years).

I found this . . . . The Hamas party platform, articulated in the 1988 Hamas Charter, provides a useful glimpse into what they want:

* Hamas' goal is Jihad and the death of Jews (Art. 7);
* All Muslims are duty-bound to commit Jihad against Israel (Art. 12);
* Peace is not an option (Art. 13);
* Western culture is a Zionist plot to distance women from Islam (Art. 17)
* Peace accords are treacherous schemes of Zionists (Art. 32);

So what’s the answer? I am not Jewish and do not support the Jews or the Palestinians but realistically what do the Palestinians expect they can get from killing a few Jews?
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The_Prince
12-27-2008, 09:31 PM
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZENW1oYNGnk a video commentary i made.
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The_Prince
12-27-2008, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Israel was under attack and it fought back. They targeted Hamas. It's not Israels fault Hamas put their bases inside civilian areas.
Palis are the victims, no doubt about that. But the means they're using to fight Israel make them loose credibility.
Take a look at Tibet. 50 years of low tone non-violent resistance and almost the entire international community supports them.
you shmuck the palestinians have been under siege, they made a ceasfire which was supposed to lift it, and hamas abided by the ceasfire, and israel didnt, but intensified their siege, the people of Gaza were starving, what would you want Hamas to do? sit and watch their people starve and suffer? no other nation would take such an unlawful siege, and Hamas did the right thing, fought back, as any other goverment would do.

so dont keep this important fact out to justify your bloodthirsty lust for the Muslim people.
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The_Prince
12-27-2008, 09:40 PM
notice folks, more than 200 palis killed, mostly civillians, and the kaffirs of this forum are saying oh well they had it comming, turn the roles, and imagine this happened in the west, and these same kaffirs will be on here expecting non stop condemnation, and no buts or any explanation.

the next time an attack happens in the west, plz kaffirs, dont complain, you simply had it comming according to your own standards, indeed, after what you did in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Somalia, Lebanon, you indeed had it comming according to your logic.

may Allah curse all the kaffirs who justify this, and curse the zionists, indeed what a great day it will be when his punishment comes, and when that day comes they cant complain, they had it comming.
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The_Prince
12-27-2008, 09:44 PM
when Hamas attacks Israeli cities, plz kaffirs, dont come here crying, as you say, they had it comming. somehow i doubt these kaffirs will follow their own standard, after all they are kaffirs.
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Keltoi
12-27-2008, 09:49 PM
At least they waited a couple days after Christmas huh?

Personally I find this to be a travesty. Yes, Israel has a right to react to threats to its citizens. Some sort of military response was inevitable. However, the degree of destruction and death in these attacks isn't justified by their stated goals. That being said, I have no sympathy for Hamas. I blame them just as much as the Israeli government for what happened here.
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Anette
12-27-2008, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
... and the kaffirs of this forum are saying oh well they had it comming...

the next time an attack happens in the west, plz kaffirs, dont complain, you simply had it comming according to your own standards...

...indeed what a great day it will be when his punishment comes, and when that day comes they cant complain, they had it comming.
Not everyone says...

Personally I hope the meaningless killing will come to an end, not escelate.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 10:36 PM
Gaza massacres must spur us to action

"I will play music and celebrate what the Israeli air force is doing."

Those were the words, spoken on Al Jazeera today by Ofer Shmerling, an Israeli civil defense official in the Sderot area adjacent to Gaza, as images of Israel's latest massacres were broadcast around the world.

A short time earlier, US-supplied Israeli F-16 warplanes and Apache helicopters dropped over 100 bombs on dozens of locations in the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip killing at least 195 persons and injuring hundreds more. Many of these locations were police stations located, like police stations the world over, in the middle of civilian areas. The US government was one of the first to offer its support for Israel's attacks, and others will follow.

Reports said that many of the dead were Palestinian police officers. Among those Israel labels "terrorists" were more than a dozen traffic police officers undergoing training. An as yet unknown number of civilians were killed and injured; Al Jazeera showed images of several dead children, and the Israeli attacks came at the time thousands of Palestinian children were in the streets on their way home from school.

Shmerling's joy has been echoed by Israelis and their supporters around the world; their violence is righteous violence. It is "self-defense" against "terrorists" and therefore justified. Israeli bombing -- like American and NATO bombing in Iraq and Afghanistan -- is bombing for freedom, peace and democracy.

The rationalization for Israel's massacres, already being faithfully transmitted by the English-language media, is that Israel is acting in "retaliation" for Palestinian rockets fired with increasing intensity ever since the six-month truce expired on 19 December (until today, no Israeli had been killed or injured by these recent rocket attacks).

But today's horrific attacks mark only a change in Israel's method of killing Palestinians recently. In recent months they died mostly silent deaths, the elderly and sick especially, deprived of food and necessary medicine by the two year-old Israeli blockade calculated and intended to cause suffering and deprivation to 1.5 million Palestinians, the vast majority refugees and children, caged into the Gaza Strip. In Gaza, Palestinians died silently, for want of basic medications: insulin, cancer treatment, products for dialysis prohibited from reaching them by Israel.

What the media never question is Israel's idea of a truce. It is very simple. Under an Israeli-style truce, Palestinians have the right to remain silent while Israel starves them, kills them and continues to violently colonize their land. Israel has not only banned food and medicine to sustain Palestinian bodies in Gaza but it is also intent on starving minds: due to the blockade, there is not even ink, paper and glue to print textbooks for schoolchildren.

As John Ging, the head of operations of the United Nations agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA), told The Electronic Intifada in November: "there was five months of a ceasefire in the last couple of months, where the people of Gaza did not benefit; they did not have any restoration of a dignified existence. We in fact at the UN, our supplies were also restricted during the period of the ceasefire, to the point where we were left in a very vulnerable and precarious position and with a few days of closure we ran out of food."

That is an Israeli truce. Any response to Israeli attacks -- whether peaceful protests against the apartheid wall in Bilin and Nilin in the West Bank is met with bullets and bombs. There are no rockets launched at Israel from the West Bank, and yet Israel's attacks, killings, land theft, settler pogroms and kidnappings never ceased for one single day during the truce. The Palestinian Authority in Ramallah has acceded to all of Israel's demands, even assembling "security forces" to fight the resistance on Israel's behalf. None of that has spared a single Palestinian or her property or livelihood from Israel's relentless violent colonization. It did not save, for instance, the al-Kurd family from seeing their home of 50 years in occupied East Jerusalem demolished on 9 November, so the land it sits on could be taken by settlers.

Once again we are watching massacres in Gaza, as we did last March when 110 Palestinians, including dozens of children, were killed by Israel in just a few days. Once again people everywhere feel rage, anger and despair that this outlaw state carries out such crimes with impunity.

But all over the Arab media and internet today the rage being expressed is not directed solely at Israel. Notably, it is directed more sharply than ever at Arab states. The images that stick are of Israel's foreign minister Tzipi Livni in Cairo on Christmas day. There she sat smiling with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. Then there are the pictures of Livni and Egypt's foreign minister smiling and slapping their palms together.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported today that last wednesday the Israeli "cabinet authorized the prime minister, the defense minister, and the foreign minister to determine the timing and the method" of Israel's attacks on Gaza. Everywhere people ask, what did Livni tell the Egyptians and more importantly what did they tell her? Did Israel get a green light to turn Gaza's streets red once again? Few are ready to give Egypt the benefit of the doubt after it has helped Israel besiege Gaza by keeping the Rafah border crossing closed for more than a year.

On top of the intense anger and sadness so many people feel at Israel's renewed mass killings in Gaza is a sense of frustration that there seem to be so few ways to channel it into a political response that can change the course of events, end the suffering, and bring justice.

But there are ways, and this is a moment to focus on them. Already I have received notices of demonstrations and solidarity actions being planned in cities all over the world. That is important. But what will happen after the demonstrations disperse and the anger dies down? Will we continue to let Palestinians in Gaza die in silence?

Palestinians everywhere are asking for solidarity, real solidarity, in the form of sustained, determined political action. The Gaza-based One Democratic State Group reaffirmed this today as it "called upon all civil society organizations and freedom loving people to act immediately in any possible way to put pressure on their governments to end diplomatic ties with Apartheid Israel and institute sanctions against it."

The global Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement for Palestine (http://www.bdsmovement.net/) provides the framework for this. Now is the time to channel our raw emotions into a long-term commitment to make sure we do not wake up to "another Gaza" ever again.

Co-founder of The Electronic Intifada, Ali Abunimah is author of One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse (Metropolitan Books, 2006).

http://www.aqsa.org.uk/HOME/tabid/36...B/Default.aspx
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-hundreds.html

This bit pisses me of so much, why do these guys have to continue with the **** rocket attacks, they fire hundreds of rockets and acheive absolutely nothing, and in the end the hundreds of innocent muslims lose their lives because of it.

Yes they lost their land, but they acheive nothing with their rocket attacks accept getting more muslims killed, their own rockets have misfired and killed palestinians
Thats what Ive been saying the whole time.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
when Hamas attacks Israeli cities, plz kaffirs, dont come here crying, as you say, they had it comming. somehow i doubt these kaffirs will follow their own standard, after all they are kaffirs.
If you check some of the earlier post you will notice that I indeed said Israel had it coming.
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Ishbah
12-27-2008, 11:03 PM
Hamas must have known that Israel would retaliate, Israel never lets the attacks that Hamas launch go. There has to be a better way than launch a few poorly functioning rockets into Israel when they know full well that Israel will retaliate.

Israel's response is completely out of proportion. The footage on TV was enough to make me feel sick to my stomach. Little children being carried in to hospital, bleeding and torn.

The cycle will go on and on I fear and no side will win.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:05 PM
What exactly do you people expect? That Hamas be allowed to rocket Israel without any counteraction? Do you expect Israel to fire Qassams in return?
I've noticed most of LI Muslim members want Palestine back to the hands of Muslims but I don't remember anyone coming up with a viable way for them to do so(except for the Prince but the viability of his plan is questionable).
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Banu_Hashim
12-27-2008, 11:10 PM
Israel does not care whether they kill women, children and innocent civilians or not. They just want to cripple Gaza as a whole, so they can perish forever.

The BBC News story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7801662.stm

Apparently Mr Olmert, the Israeli prime minister feels the need to speak for Palestinians. He says "You - the citizens of Gaza - are not our enemies. Hamas, Jihad and the other terrorist organisations are your enemies, as they are our enemies."

I can't believe this guy.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What exactly do you people expect? That Hamas be allowed to rocket Israel without any counteraction? Do you expect Israel to fire Qassams in return?
I've noticed most of LI Muslim members want Palestine back to the hands of Muslims but I don't remember anyone coming up with a viable way for them to do so(except for the Prince but the viability of his plan is questionable).
Israel has always been attacking and when the palistinians retaliate they use that as an excuse to bomb them!

If they don't attack then they use blockades to block any support, food and all other forms of help and support except what's enough to live!

Peace treaties stop attacks from Israel but they don't lift the blockades! That's why a cease fire never work.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Israel has always been attacking and when the palistanians retaliate they use that as an excuse to bomb them!
It's hard to tell who started. The rivalry goes back to the early years of the 20th century.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's hard to tell who started. The rivalry goes back to the early years of the 20th century.
Israel started it in 1948. Look into history and you'll see the facts.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Israel started it in 1948. Look into history and you'll see the facts.
Look into history and you'll see it started earlier. 1948 is the year od the first major conlict, a conflict in which Israel prevailed, a conflict which cost Palis quite a big share of the land they could have still had.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Look into history and you'll see it started earlier. 1948 is the year od the first major conlict, a conflict in which Israel prevailed, a conflict which cost Palis quite a big share of the land they could have still had.
Yes, and who began this conflict? Israel!
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Yes, and who began this conflict? Israel!
Not exactly. Israel declared independence and the Arabs attacked. Just like the British did in 1775.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not exactly. Israel declared independence and the Arabs attacked. Just like the British did in 1775.
Keep looking into history and look at the british involvement and their reasons.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Keep looking into history and look at the british involvement and their reasons.
The British I brought up have nothing to do with this really..
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Woodrow
12-27-2008, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
On the other hand, when Hamas or Islamic Jihad shots a rocket in Israel there is 20% of chance that they will kill an Arab(mostly muslim). What you think about that?
Second, nowadays 97% of Gaza citizens are muslims, the christians in majority left in last decade.
True on both counts.

Thats what I get for not keeping up with current events.


I just wish both factors would wake up and see that the majority of deaths, are innocent bystandeers. This has been a way of life now for 2 generations.

Wont somebody let Peace have a try?
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
True on both counts.

Thats what I get for not keeping up with current events.


I just wish both factors would wake up and see that the majority of deaths, are innocent bystandeers. This has been a way of life now for 2 generations.

Wont somebody let Peace have a try?
The fundi schmuck who assassinated Rabin screwed things up capitally.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-27-2008, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The British I brought up have nothing to do with this really..
Yes they do, keep looking and you'll see.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Yes they do, keep looking and you'll see.
I'd prefer if you enlightened me.
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SacredGeometry
12-27-2008, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-hundreds.html

This bit **** me of so much, why do these guys have to continue with the **** rocket attacks, they fire hundreds of rockets and acheive absolutely nothing, and in the end the hundreds of innocent muslims lose their lives because of it.

Yes they lost their land, but they acheive nothing with their rocket attacks accept getting more muslims killed, their own rockets have misfired and killed palestinians
It's more complicated then that. I'm sorry but you and many Muslims a like are just a victim of SyOps magic. Zionists have been firing ineffective rockets for years. They have used this as a platform to kill Palestinians. Palestinians barely have food to feed there families. Most of them have probably been starving for over a decade due to blockades etc. It serves no benefit for the Palestinians to supposedly "rocket" attack Israeli territories.

The newspaper article you cited is owned by the Zionists. Obviously, when you own something, you control the flow of it. Don't be fooled by what you hear from the Media, most if not all of it is controlled. You get told half truths mixed with lies. They've mastered the art of story telling. Unfortunately their News sells and influences the minds of the masses.

My best advice is; learn Surah Al-Kahf by Heart. Only then will you not fall into the Dajjal Deception.
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MKE Brother
12-27-2008, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I'd prefer if you enlightened me.
Suggested reading = "The Lemon Tree"
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2008, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by MKE Brother
Suggested reading = "The Lemon Tree"
Starred Review. The title of this moving, well-crafted book refers to a tree in the backyard of a home in Ramla, Israel. The home is currently owned by Dalia, a Jewish woman whose family of Holocaust survivors emigrated from Bulgaria. But before Israel gained its independence in 1948, the house was owned by the Palestinian family of Bashir, who meets Dalia when he returns to see his family home after the Six-Day War of 1967. Journalist Tolan (Me & Hank) traces the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through the parallel personal histories of Dalia and Bashir and their families—all refugees seeking a home. As Tolan takes the story forward, Dalia struggles with her Israeli identity, and Bashir struggles with decades in Israeli prisons for suspected terrorist activities. Those looking for even a symbolic magical solution to that conflict won't find it here: the lemon tree dies in 1998, just as the Israeli-Palestinian peace process stagnates. But as they follow Dalia and Bashir's difficult friendship, readers will experience one of the world's most stubborn conflicts firsthand. 2 maps. (May)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.


Sounds interesting.

Though the only reason I brought up British was because they too attacked a newly founded nation, the same as Arabs in 1948.
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MKE Brother
12-27-2008, 11:51 PM
"The Lemon Tree" really was a great read. Very well put together, I cannot recommend it enough.
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noorseeker
12-28-2008, 12:15 AM
May Allah swt help the palestinian people
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Banu_Hashim
12-28-2008, 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by nightstar
May Allah swt help the palestinian people
Ameen.
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The_Prince
12-28-2008, 01:30 AM
everyone, dont forget, Hamas is a democratically elected goverment, all their police stations and headquarters have been destroyed, if this happened anywhere else, you would hear non stop about ohhh this is an attack on democracy etc, yet in Palestine they dont say anything! When Georgia was attacked all you heard was this is an attack on democracy, the same is happening in Palestine, but now its ok, sheesh, the hypocrisy of the west will never stop.
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MKE Brother
12-28-2008, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
When Georgia was attacked all you heard was this is an attack on democracy, the same is happening in Palestine, but now its ok, sheesh, the hypocrisy of the west will never stop.
Agreed, Israel gets a free pass on pretty much everything when it comes to them "protecting themselves". "Poor little defenseless" Israel gets some firecrackers thrown over the fence and they respond with grenades.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-28-2008, 08:14 AM
Israel resumes Gaza bombardment

Israeli warplanes have resumed their air strikes on Gaza Strip, hitting targets across the territory, including a mosque and a television station.

Two bodies were retrieved from the rubble of a mosque near Gaza City's Shifa hospital early on Sunday, witnesses said.

The blast, just after midnight, blew out windows at the hospital, hospital officials said.

The studio building of al-Aqsa TV was also destroyed, but the station remained on air with a mobile unit.

Palestinians counted about attacks in the early hours of Sunday, after more than 225 people had been killed and hundreds of other injured in air raids the previous day as Israel launched Operation Cast Lead.

Ehud Barack, Israel's defence minister, has warned that the air raids could be followed by a major ground incursion into the Gaza Strip.

"We are ready for anything. If it's necessary to deploy ground forces to defend our citizens, we will do so," Barak's spokesman quoted him as saying on Sunday.

Israeli television has reported that hundreds of infantry and armoured forces were massing on the border of the territory.

No truce

Earlier Barak rejected calls for a new truce between the Palestinian Hamas movement and Israel.

"For us to be asked to have a ceasefire with Hamas is like asking you [the United States] to have a ceasefire with al-Qaeda. It's something we cannot really accept," he told Fox News from Tel Aviv.

Ehud Olmert, the outgoing Israeli prime minister, described the assault as a war on the Palestinian faction which took full control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 after pushing out security force loyal to Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president.

Members of the Israeli cabinet say the attack was in response to an increase in the number of home-made rockets being fired into southern Israel since a ceasefire ended on December 19.

At least one Israel was killed and six other wounded in missile attacks by Palestinian fighters after the raids on Gaza began.

Carnage

Gaza witnesses reported heavy damage after dozens of missiles were fired from helicopter gunships and fighter jets on about 40 different locations in the strip on Saturday.

Many of the dead in the series of attacks were police officers, including Tawfiq Jabber, the Gaza chief of police.

The toll is expected to rise further, with bodies still lying buried under the rubble of destroyed buildings.

Hospitals, already suffering from shortages due to an 18-month blockade on the Gaza Strip, said they were struggling to cope with the number of injured, which included women and children.

Gaza is densely populated. Its 1.5 million residents were already experiencing shortages in power and basic supplies due to the siege which is widely condemned by human rights movements as a collective punishment.

'Ugly massacre'

Ismail Haniya, the Hamas leader in Gaza, called the assault Israel's "ugliest massacre".

"I call on Palestinians to remain united and together in the face of this crime, in the face of this massacre and continued aggression, targeting our soil and our citizens," he said.

Olmert, speaking in Tel Aviv on Saturday, said the operation would take time and called on Israelis to be "patient".

"The quiet we offered was answered with mayhem. Our desire for calm was answered with terror," he said.

"You are not our enemies. We do not fight against you," Olmert said in a direct address to Palestinians.

"[Terrorist organisations] are disastrous for both peoples. Israel is not fighting against the Palestinian people, and the targets attacked today were chosen with the intent of avoiding civilian casualties."

Long operation

Jacky Rowland, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Jerusalam, said: "People have been forewarned about further operations of this intesnsity for many days to come, with more sorties flown by Israeli planes and helicopters and more targets in Gaza.

"In response, more than 50 rockets were fired into Israel today. Defence officials are warning that there could be as many as 200 rockets fired every day into Israel in the days to come."

Salam Fayyad, the Palestinian prime minister in the West Bank-based government, condemned the attack and demanded an immediate cessation.

Many leaders added their voices to condemn the onslaught, including Ban Ki-moon, secretary-general of the UN, who called for an immediate cessation of hostilities.

Mousa Abu Morzouz, the deputy leader of Hamas, said: "Nobody in this world can accept what happened and the Israeli aggression ... [we expect] the international community to stand against this and say that it is not acceptable."

Mustafa Barghouthi, the former Palestinian information minister, said: "This is not an attack on Hamas. It is an attack on the whole population and the free will of the people of Gaza."

He accused Israel of committing "war crimes" and demanded that Abbas and his government stop all relations with Israel.

'Only just beginning'

The Israeli army released a statement on Saturday saying "terrorist installations" were hit and that all Israeli pilots returned unharmed.

Avi Benayahu, an Israeli military spokesman said: "The operation against Hamas is "only just beginning".

The air raids follow a breakdown of a six-month-old Israel-Hamas truce earlier this month.

The ceasefire expired on December 19, with Hamas arguing that Israel had violated the truce by preventing vital supplies from entering the Strip.

Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing with the Gaza Strip to receive injured people, Egyptian officials said. Ambulances have been sent to the crossing and two Egyptian hospitals emptied to take in the wounded.

Hamas won control of the Palestinian Legislative Council in elections in January 2005. The international community refused to accept a Hamas-led government, demanding that the faction recognise Israel and renounce violence. Economic sanctions by the EU and US followed.

Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 after bloody street battles against its rival, Fatah.



http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...910425276.html
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'Abd-al Latif
12-28-2008, 08:33 AM
Israels Opression!

Are these the guilty ones??










































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'Abd-al Latif
12-28-2008, 08:39 AM
Gazans: Israel violated the truce

In June, Israeli and Palestinian leaders agreed to a ceasefire following weeks of intense fighting in Gaza.

Under the terms of the ceasefire, Hamas and its affiliates would refrain from firing home-made rockets into Israel and the latter would halt incursions and attacks on the Gaza Strip.

The Egyptian-brokered agreement also called for an easing of Israel's restrictions on the borders, thereby allowing goods into the besieged territory.

However, the fragile truce between Israel and Gaza was breached by an Israeli raid and Palestinian rocket fire on November 4.

Since then Israel has accused Gazan fighters of launching dozens of home-made rocket attacks at Israeli towns and the Hamas leadership has countered by saying Israeli air raids and military action have killed several Palestinians.

The Israeli blockade on Gaza has sparked much international criticism as precipitating a looming humanitarian crisis in the Strip.

Al Jazeera spoke to residents of the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza about the truce, its effects, and whether it should be renewed.

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2...459596978.html
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Ummu Sufyaan
12-28-2008, 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
They're firing Russian rockets, how is that gonna achieve anything but Israeli retaliation?
I'm not a law expert so I wouldn't know to whom it legally belongs.
the flippin Israelis shouldn't even be there to even begin! whats stopping them from gettin out of a place they dont belong in, in the first place. if they stay there illegilly, then serves them right!


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Israel was under attack and it fought back. They targeted Hamas. It's not Israels fault Hamas put their bases inside civilian areas.
Palis are the victims, no doubt about that. But the means they're using to fight Israel make them loose credibility.
so what are they meant to do? sit back and relax! :rollseyes

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Both Israel and Palestine have the right to fight.
Israel had no right to fight back, considering they're on illegal territory


may Allah ease the state of the Palestinians and make Palestine a grave for their enemies ....
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KelleyD
12-28-2008, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
In your opinion 1 dead from rocket = 200 dead and injured palestinians?
Latest count:

Israel: 1
Palestinians: 230 dead, over 400 wounded

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081227/...l_palestinians

A few months ago I was watching this video entitled:

See Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land: Media & the Israel-Palestine Conflict
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75898578139565

and when I finished watching it, all I could think was that Israel has two billion dollars worth of US military machines, nuclear capability, elite special operations units, thousands of soldiers and Mossad to fight against a group of teenagers throwing rocks as their only offense weapon? Talk about overkill. Israel has become the so-called "monster" they are fighting. In the end, they have become their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

What really makes my heart ache is that the U.S. mourns their 2,500 dead from 9-11 but what about the 25,000 dead (more actually) in the Middle East afterwards? Who mourns for them? I see far more women, children and innocent civilians brutalized and killed by the US and Israel than the other way around. This latest attack from Israel and the U.S.'s response to it is a classic example. How long can a people allow themselves to be mislead by a corrupt government?
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north_malaysian
12-28-2008, 09:51 AM
I've watched ART (Arab Radio Television) channel this morning and they're playing Patriotic Arab Unity video clips..... maybe because of what is happening in Gaza...

Arab/Muslim unity? At the present state, "ARab/Muslim unity" is like having a snow in my country...imsad
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
everyone, dont forget, Hamas is a democratically elected goverment, all their police stations and headquarters have been destroyed, if this happened anywhere else, you would hear non stop about ohhh this is an attack on democracy etc, yet in Palestine they dont say anything! When Georgia was attacked all you heard was this is an attack on democracy, the same is happening in Palestine, but now its ok, sheesh, the hypocrisy of the west will never stop.
The very government that is firing rockets on Israel.
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
so what are they meant to do? sit back and relax! :rollseyes

Israel had no right to fight back, considering they're on illegal territory
may Allah ease the state of the Palestinians and make Palestine a grave for their enemies ....
They can do anything that doesn't involve rocketing or in any other way attacking Israel. Why don't they strike, boycott etc, what they did during the intifadas. Civil disobedience works.

Prove it is illegal.
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crayon
12-28-2008, 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
They can do anything that doesn't involve rocketing or in any other way attacking Israel. Why don't they strike, boycott etc, what they did during the intifadas. Civil disobedience works.

Prove it is illegal.
Are you serious? Boycott what?!, they've been blockaded for over a year, there's nothing left to boycott!!
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Are you serious? Boycott what?!, they've been blockaded for over a year, there's nothing left to boycott!!
Bad luck then.
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crayon
12-28-2008, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I've watched ART (Arab Radio Television) channel this morning and they're playing Patriotic Arab Unity video clips..... maybe because of what is happening in Gaza...

Arab/Muslim unity? At the present state, "ARab/Muslim unity" is like having a snow in my country...imsad
I pray that every leader in the Arab world who can do something about this and chooses to watch safely in the sidelines gets a worse punishment in the afterlife than the Israelis bombing Gaza.
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 12:12 PM
They can elect a party that won't spent most of its time trying to fight and annihilate a vastly superior state and will focus on the well being of the people living in the current Palestinian territories instead.
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crayon
12-28-2008, 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Bad luck then.
Yup, bad luck.
I guess the only solution left is to die smiling and thanking Israel for their kindness.:)
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crayon
12-28-2008, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Actually according to tv news, 80 Hamas members were killed, the rest were civilians. On tv thez also said that since last 2 weeks Arabs keep firing long distance rockets at Israeli cities and over 70% of Jews in Israel wanted strong reaction and blamed the israeli goverment on lack of reaction.
I hope this is strong enough for them.:)
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Yup, bad luck.
I guess the only solution left is to die smiling and thanking Israel for their kindness.:)
Not at all.
What I'm suggesting is that they realize that there is very little chance Israel will cease to exist in the next 5 years, so they can spent that time fixing relations with it and the rest of the chekpoint-opening and charity-giving world and and at the same time do something about the economy, education etc.
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Thinker
12-28-2008, 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
notice folks, more than 200 palis killed, mostly civillians, and the kaffirs of this forum are saying oh well they had it comming,
I'm not sure if I am included in that description but I would like to know from anyone here who supports Hamas, what does Hamas want to achieve?

I am starting to wonder whether Hamas is pursuing a policy that is best for the Palestinian people or whether it is just following orders from Tehran?
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Thinker
12-28-2008, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by Ramlah
the flippin Israelis shouldn't even be there to even begin! whats stopping them from gettin out of a place they dont belong in, in the first place. if they stay there illegilly, then serves them right!
....
I think this is the view taken by Hamas etc., and I'd very much like to know what the argument is to suggest that Jews should not be living in Israel/Palestine/Judea or whatever else you call that area?
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crayon
12-28-2008, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not at all.
What I'm suggesting is that they realize that there is very little chance Israel will cease to exist in the next 5 years, so they can spent that time fixing relations with it and the rest of the chekpoint-opening and charity-giving world and and at the same time do something about the economy, education etc.
And when should this start? Now? After Israel has killed almost 300 Palestinians, most of whom are civilians?
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
And when should this start? Now? After Israel has killed almost 300 Palestinians, most of whom are civilians?
If it started in 1948 Palestine today would be what? 4 times bigger?
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crayon
12-28-2008, 12:43 PM
Well if we're going to go use if's...

If Israel had not been created in the first place, Palestine would be whole.
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Well if we're going to go use if's...

If Israel had not been created in the first place, Palestine would be whole.
Yep.
But now after 60 years have passed, one of the parties should change strategy.
I know it must suck to fight for 60 years without any considerable success and admit defeat, but this is what they should do.
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crayon
12-28-2008, 12:53 PM
Say Palestinians did agree to a 2 state solution, hypothetically; and then what? Do you sincerely believe that that will be enough for Israel? Do you sincerely believe that they will not want more land? (not rhetorical questions, i really want to know)
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Say Palestinians did agree to a 2 state solution, hypothetically; and then what? Do you sincerely believe that that will be enough for Israel? Do you sincerely believe that they will not want more land? (not rhetorical questions, i really want to know)
I believe the majority of Israelis are supportive of the 2 state solution.
And even if they should change their mind someday in the future, Palestine will be an independent country then and if they stop attacking their neighbor, Israel won't have any just reason to claim any further land.
The 2 state contract should prevent it anyway.
Palestine should be assigned with international guardians in case Israel starts an unprovoked attack.
Naturally, the definition of provoked may cause a lot of trouble down there.
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S_87
12-28-2008, 01:27 PM
Alaa inna nasrullahi qareeb :cry: :cry:
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Say Palestinians did agree to a 2 state solution, hypothetically; and then what? Do you sincerely believe that that will be enough for Israel? Do you sincerely believe that they will not want more land? (not rhetorical questions, i really want to know)
A lot of Israelis have similiar thoughts. If we give away Gaza and the West Bank, Palis will think they won the battle, they'll want more and more until they will push us into the sea.
That's me imitating Israeli thoughts.
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crayon
12-28-2008, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I believe the majority of Israelis are supportive of the 2 state solution.
And even if they should change their mind someday in the future, Palestine will be an independent country then and if they stop attacking their neighbor, Israel won't have any just reason to claim any further land.
The 2 state contract should prevent it anyway.
Palestine should be assigned with international guardians in case Israel starts an unprovoked attack.
Naturally, the definition of provoked may cause a lot of trouble down there.
Unfortunately, most of the time it's the governments opinion that matters. I have no doubt in my mind that even if the 2 state solution is accepted by palestinians, israel will still try to gain control of the rest of the area.
Israel didn't have any valid reason to claim palestine the first time round either, that didn't stop it from doing it.
As for international guardians... If Israel attacks the official state of Palestine, do you really think the US or the rest of its allies will fight against it?
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Unfortunately, most of the time it's the governments opinion that matters. I have no doubt in my mind that even if the 2 state solution is accepted by palestinians, israel will still try to gain control of the rest of the area.
Israel didn't have any valid reason to claim palestine the first time round either, that didn't stop it from doing it.
As for international guardians... If Israel attacks the official state of Palestine, do you really think the US or the rest of its allies will fight against it?
What do you propose the Palestinians should do then?
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Anette
12-28-2008, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A lot of Israelis have similiar thoughts. If we give away Gaza and the West Bank, Palis will think they won the battle, they'll want more and more until they will push us into the sea.
That's me imitating Israeli thoughts.
But there are a main difference since Israel is occupying land that does not belong to them. So "give away" is not the right expression but withdraw their occupation forces from another nations land. They have no right to even be there. So pack up the moving trucks and leave both the Gaza and West Bank and move the wall that is cutting their land.

And then start to talk.

"Palis will think they won the battle" - yeay right, especially the one´s died already. Is it a question of win or loose to you? Doing the right thing is a loss? There are no winners in this conflict – just losers.
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Amadeus85
12-28-2008, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Anette
But there are a main difference since Israel is occupying land that does not belong to them. So "give away" is not the right expression but withdraw their occupation forces from another nations land. They have no right to even be there. So pack up the moving trucks and leave both the Gaza and West Bank and move the wall that is cutting their land.

And then start to talk.

"Palis will think they won the battle" - yeay right, especially the one´s died already. Is it a question of win or loose to you? Doing the right thing is a loss? There are no winners in this conflict – just losers.
Maybe the Arabs will have to get used to with the loss of Palestina, just like the Greeks had to get used to with the conquest of Bizantium by Turks.
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Anette
But there are a main difference since Israel is occupying land that does not belong to them. So "give away" is not the right expression but withdraw their occupation forces from another nations land. They have no right to even be there. So pack up the moving trucks and leave both the Gaza and West Bank and move the wall that is cutting their land.

And then start to talk.

"Palis will think they won the battle" - yeay right, especially the one´s died already. Is it a question of win or loose to you? Doing the right thing is a loss? There are no winners in this conflict – just losers.
Those weren't my thoughts. I support full Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and the formation of a Palestinian state. I also support that the sections of the wall that stand on the newly founded Palestinian state be moved.
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crayon
12-28-2008, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What do you propose the Palestinians should do then?
I don't know, what I do know is that the idealized two state solution will not work, and will be opposed vehemently from both sides. No matter what happens, the bloodshed will not end. At least, until the return of Jesus peace be upon him. I just hope it's not too far ahead.imsad
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'Abd-al Latif
12-28-2008, 03:47 PM
Israeli jets target Gaza tunnels

Israeli jets have bombed 40 tunnels in the southern Gaza Strip in a second day of intense air raids aimed at forcing Hamas militants to halt rocket fire.

In the latest raids jets bombed tunnels in the Rafah area, used to bring supplies into Gaza from Egypt. Israel says they are used for arms smuggling.

Palestinians now say at least 280 people have died in the air raids.

Israel has threatened to launch a ground assault and has authorised a call-up of 6,500 army reservists.

At the UN, the Security Council called for an end to all violence in Gaza, including rocket attacks from Gaza.

Israel says militants have fired 110 rockets into Israel since Saturday.

A doctor at the Shifa hospital in Gaza City described a desperate scene, with essential medical supplies, fuel and water all running out.

Dr Khamis El Essi told the BBC that many people had been admitted with multiple injuries, such as head and back wounds. Some patients had had limbs amputated.

He said some of the injured were carers and relatives who had been sheltering in a nearby mosque hit in an Israeli raid.

The air strikes were launched on Saturday against Hamas targets in the densely-populated coastal territory, less than a week after the expiry of a six-month-long ceasefire deal with the militant group

Israel hit targets in all Gaza's main towns, including Gaza City in the north and Khan Younis and Rafah in the south.

More than 210 targets were hit in the first 24 hours of what Israel says could be a lengthy military operation.

"Israel will continue until we have a new security environment in the south, when the population there will not longer live in terror and in fear of constant rocket barrages," said government spokesman Mark Regev.

The high numbers of casualties made Saturday the single deadliest day in the Gaza Strip since Israel's occupation of the territory in 1967, analysts said, although no independent confirmation is available of the numbers killed.

Border confusion

Most of those killed were policemen in the Hamas militant movement, which controls Gaza, but officials said women and children also died.

The head of Gaza's police was among those killed.

Up to 700 others were wounded as missiles struck security compounds and militant bases, the officials added

Egypt has opened its border with Gaza at Rafah to let the injured seek treatment there.

But the Egyptian foreign minister has accused Hamas of not allowing injured Palestinians to leave Gaza to seek treatment, even though much-needed medical supplies are waiting at the nearby El-Arish airport.

In Israel, one person was killed, in the town of Netivot, some 20km (12 miles) east of Gaza, while there were reports of several Qassam rocket strikes early on Sunday.

Rockets landed in Ashdod, Israel's largest southern city - some 38km (23 miles) from Gaza - the deepest they have ever struck inside Israel, Israeli media said. No injuries were reported.

A Palestinian youth was killed by Israeli fire in the north of the West Bank during protests against the raids, medics said.

In Gaza, Palestinian officials said two people died when a mosque was hit on Saturday night.

A BBC journalist in Gaza City said a Hamas-run security and prison compound was hit by at least three missiles on Sunday morning. Hamas said all of its security compounds in the strip were destroyed on Saturday.

'Time for fighting'

At the UN, the Security Council ended emergency talks with a call for an end to hostilities, speaking of "serious concern" at the escalation of the situation in Gaza.

US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad suggested Hamas held the key to restoring calm.

"We believe the way forward from here is for rocket attacks against Israel to stop, for all violence to end," he said.

He was implicitly backed up from Cairo by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas - whose Fatah faction is a bitter rival of Hamas.

"We could have avoided what happened," Mr Abbas said, saying the Islamist group should have renewed the ceasefire before it lapsed.

The air raids came days after the truce expired and as Israel prepares for a general election in February.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak has explained the operation in stark terms, saying "the time has come to fight".

In response the exiled leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, called for a new intifada, or uprising, against Israel, while the movement's Gaza leader, Ismail Haniya, called the attack an "ugly massacre".

International reaction to the bombing has been dominated by calls for restraint.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Middle East envoy Tony Blair and the French EU presidency all called for a ceasefire.

The Israel-Hamas truce was regularly under strain and was allowed to lapse when it expired this month.

Hamas blamed Israel for the end of the ceasefire, saying it had not respected its terms, including the lifting of the blockade under which little more than humanitarian aid has been allowed into Gaza.

Israel said it initially began easing the blockade, but this was halted when Hamas failed to fulfil what Israel says were agreed conditions, including ending all rocket fire and halting weapons smuggling.

From 1967 Israel's military occupied the Gaza Strip and Jewish settlers built communities within the territory. Israel withdrew in 2005 but has maintained control of Gaza's borders.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7801662.stm
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crayon
12-28-2008, 03:52 PM
Is this the beginning of a third intifada? imsad
Reply

north_malaysian
12-28-2008, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
At least, until the return of Jesus peace be upon him. I just hope it's not too far ahead.imsad
But the Antichrist must appear first, before Jesus Christ descend to earth...

how to recognise who's the antichrist right now?:blind:
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 04:33 PM
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A crude rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in the northern Gaza Strip and killing two schoolgirls.

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border Friday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

None of Gaza's militant factions claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the house in Beit Lahiya. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moiaya Hassanain said the two victims, ages 5 and 12, were cousins. Three other children were wounded, he said.

The girls were the first Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by militants since their truce with Israel began collapsing six weeks ago. Family members and medics said they were killed by rocket fire.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...PRq3gD95AII1G0

When militants strike Israel, especially if they kill a civilian/soldier, every group claims responsibility. Yet when something like this happens, not a single group claims they did it. :rollseyes

Also, I find it humorous that Iran tells muslim nations to punish and destroy Israel, yet they themselves don't lift a finger. :rollseyes
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Muslim Woman
12-28-2008, 04:53 PM
:sl:

Supporting Palestinians: Emotions Are Not Enough



We should support our brothers and sisters in Palestine with money and medicine, and aid them through all legal means.

Let us at least show our protest and objection against what is going on. One wonders how it is forbidden to talk about the holocaust in Europe while a holocaust is committed against the Palestinians who have no army, no food, and no medical supplies.


Muslim scholars should come together in condemning these massacres or holocausts and revive the sense of shame in people's mind against what is going on and awaken them and all free people in the world to stand against it, not only by words but also by action.


When Will Palestine Be Back?


Palestine and Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa will be freed when we put our differences aside, unite together and become true and caring brothers. Defeat is the result of disunity and disagreement between the hearts and unity is the key to victory.


Allah grants victory for His pious slaves; victory will come when Muslims become truthful and sincere to Allah, rely only on Him fully, and supplicate to Him.


It will come when we abandon what some people are uttering that "The only way to salvation is to beg the 'powerful' countries."

Allah says, (And (you will obtain) another (favor) that you love: victory from Allah and an imminent conquest; and give good tidings to the believers) (As-Saff 61:13).


. And Almighty Allah says:


(This is because Allah has never changed a favor which He has conferred upon a people until they change their own condition; and because Allah is Hearing, Knowing.) (Al-Anfal 8: 53 ).


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...ah%2FLSELayout
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Civilsed
12-28-2008, 04:54 PM
Ina Lillah wa Ina ilahi raji'oon. Lets keeping those who lost their and and the families in our dua's. We should all pressure out govt's to place some pressure on isreal.
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north_malaysian
12-28-2008, 05:24 PM
A peaceful demonstration would be held in front of American Embassy on 30.12.2008 (Tuesday) at 11.00 AM...
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Banu_Hashim
12-28-2008, 06:05 PM
I pray that Allah helps the Palestinian people. imsad

For the Palestinian people:

رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لاَ طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَآ أَنتَ مَوْلاَنَا فَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ


"Our Lord! Put not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Pardon us and grant us Forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Maula (Patron, Supporter and Protector) and give us victory over the disbelieving people"

Surah Baqarah; Ayat 286.
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IslamicRevival
12-28-2008, 06:19 PM
One thing i do not understand is...WHERE ARE THE MUSLIMS!!! No one is trying to help Palestine.

This may sound controversial but the sooner Iran has a Nuclear bomb the better!
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 06:22 PM
Right...thats what the world needs...more nukes.
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Sahabiyaat
12-28-2008, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
One thing i do not understand is...WHERE ARE THE MUSLIMS!!! No one is trying to help Palestine.

This may sound controversial but the sooner Iran has a Nuclear bomb the better!
controversial my foot.i cant wait till they get one, they are the only ones with any guts to help the muslims anyway, the arabs can sit in their gold chairs and watch, the cowards!

........:cry: im sad...
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
controversial my foot.i cant wait till they get one, they are the only ones with any guts to help the muslims anyway, the arabs can sit in their gold chairs and watch, the cowards!

........:cry: im sad...
What makes you so sure they'll use it? When Israel attacked Lebanon, they stood still. Still, they stand still as Israel attacks Gaza. All they do is show off their huge missles during parades, perform military exercises, etc.... 'Real guts.' :rollseyes
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Wilma_Hum
12-28-2008, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
controversial my foot.i cant wait till they get one, they are the only ones with any guts to help the muslims anyway, the arabs can sit in their gold chairs and watch, the cowards!

........:cry: im sad...
"they are the only ones with any guts to help the muslims anyway"
And what are they (Iran) doing?
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's only action it to tell others to take action.

Iran Orders Muslims To Defend Palestinians In Gaza
http://www.rferl.org/content/Iran_Or...a/1364363.html
Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued on December 28 a religious decree to Muslims around the world, ordering them to defend Palestinians against Israel's attacks on Gaza,
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nocturnal
12-28-2008, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
What makes you so sure they'll use it? When Israel attacked Lebanon, they stood still. Still, they stand still as Israel attacks Gaza. All they do is show off their huge missles during parades, perform military exercises, etc.... 'Real guts.' :rollseyes
Taking on Israel isn't like fetching groceries. The only way the regional nations can do it is to launch a co-ordinated and concerted effort. An effort like that will almost certainly be fronted by Iran. But in order for that to happen, we need to force a change of opinion in the collective regional Arab leadership, because ousting them altogether as savoury as it may sound, isn't going to be easy.

But if there are sustained protests in all the major capitals, and the position of the leaderships becomes genuinely compromised, especially within the military, from where the chances of a coup could be enhanced, then they are likely to accede to public opinion and do something about it.

There can be no such concept as international consensus on this when the nations defining the consensus are the ones who have deep and vested interests in the security of israel. It's time we took rigid action as an Ummah.
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IslamicRevival
12-28-2008, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Right...thats what the world needs...more nukes.
If Israel have nukes why cant Iran?

Why do America supply the mass murdering Israelis who are killing/Butchering Innocent Palestinians?

THIS IS A WAR ON ISLAM
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nocturnal
12-28-2008, 07:17 PM
I don't think israel, no matter how callous it is, would contemplate using nukes against a number of nations ranged against it. It's been almost 42 years since the 6 day war. We've had the chance to reconstitute, and now it's time for us to really complete the job. The US effectively told the UN to go hang in the run up to the Iraq war, if so, we too can unilaterally liberate the Palestinians. We don't need an imperialist sanctioned mandate for that.
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IslamicRevival
12-28-2008, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Sahabiyaat
controversial my foot.i cant wait till they get one, they are the only ones with any guts to help the muslims anyway, the arabs can sit in their gold chairs and watch, the cowards!

........:cry: im sad...
Totally agree with you.

It goes to show Countries like Pakistan and Saudi are AMERICAN PUPPETS!!

It is so frustrating, They have the power to do something but they dont.

It goes to show how we Muslims are in a dire state

The sooner Imam Mahdi Arrives the better :cry:

May Allah SWT help the Palestinians
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nocturnal
12-28-2008, 07:28 PM
We cannot relent on the leaderships in the Muslim countries. For too long we have given them free reign to do whatever they please and look what we have incurred. The systematic debasement of everything Islamic in the world. The culuture, the people, the land, the history etc.
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
Taking on Israel isn't like fetching groceries. The only way the regional nations can do it is to launch a co-ordinated and concerted effort. An effort like that will almost certainly be fronted by Iran. But in order for that to happen, we need to force a change of opinion in the collective regional Arab leadership, because ousting them altogether as savoury as it may sound, isn't going to be easy.

But if there are sustained protests in all the major capitals, and the position of the leaderships becomes genuinely compromised, especially within the military, from where the chances of a coup could be enhanced, then they are likely to accede to public opinion and do something about it.

There can be no such concept as international consensus on this when the nations defining the consensus are the ones who have deep and vested interests in the security of israel. It's time we took rigid action as an Ummah.
Lets us say, hypothetically, a coup does occur in every arab/muslim country. The muslim brotherhood takes over Egypt, Jordan and Syria, hezbullah takes over Lebanon, and so on. Now what? Should they all declare war on Israel? Should they all cease the selling of oil to western countries, as Saudi Arabia did once (correct if I am wrong). What is the next step?
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sister herb
12-28-2008, 07:33 PM
:sl:

As USA always says: Isreal has right to defend themselves, even if it means killing hundreds of civilians during few days (now amount of victims is 300 and at least 1000 are wounded - without medical supplies, fuel and electricity amount of deaths will be rise soon).

But have Palestinians right to defend themselves at all?

Isrealis of cource by they american made high-tech missiles, F16s´ and tank fire over the border against civilian houses, mosques, schools, hospitals, pharmacies etc. can just make is more effectively and kill more people than Palestinians by they homemade missiles....

Firing missiles over border to isreal is an act of terrorism but firing Gazans by modern weapons is just "defending"?
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 07:36 PM
Even if Iran aquired a nuke, they wont use it against Israel because they'll blow Gaza and the West Bank away with it. Plus, the west will probably nuke Iran in retaliation.
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Wilma_Hum
12-28-2008, 07:38 PM
IMHO there will never be peace because neither want it.
Israel's prime objective it to get more land.
Palestinians prime objective is to kill/destroy Israel.
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nocturnal
12-28-2008, 07:39 PM
You are right indeed. Saudi Arabia did cease selling oil in protest at the US continued support for Israel in the Yom Kippur War. It was a directive of King Faisal. If the scenario that you've alluded to does transpire, the next step would be with regards to israel, either to demand immedieate cessation of all hostilities and withdrawal to the pre 1967 borders, or the total liberation of all Palestine. It would have to be a considered policy.

I do recognize that the jews have always had a historic presence in the region, but the persecution of the Palestinians, the right of return, the dispossession, the ignominy of check points, the settlements, all this must be stopped and reversed.

If you're trying to say that we should not do anything because we don't have a clearly defined long term strategy, this is a colossal misjudgment.
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Thinker
12-28-2008, 07:39 PM
Continuing in my (lone) quest to find an answer to how this started, who’s entitled to what and what each side wants, I discovered the following:

Both the Palestinians and the Jews are descendants of Abraham.
The original Jews, the 12 tribes of the descendants of Jacob lived in Canaan, the area east and west of Jerusalem.
For 2000+ years prior to the 7C the people now calling themselves Palestinians were living in the same region and were either Pagans, Christians or Jews.
Genetically (through DNA comparisons) the Palestinians are closest to the Jews.

So it seems to me that the Palestinians are Jews who converted to Islam and adopted Arabic as their mother tongue.
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Wilma_Hum
IMHO there will never be peace because neither want it.
Israel's prime objective it to get more land.
Palestinians prime objective is to kill/destroy Israel.
Exactly.
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nocturnal
12-28-2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Wilma_Hum
IMHO there will never be peace because neither want it.
Israel's prime objective it to get more land.
Palestinians prime objective is to kill/destroy Israel.
This is not true. The Palestinian aim is not to destroy or kill israelis, it is to seek justice. We want a viable Palestinian state, we want this separation barrier, settlements and checkpoints dismantled. The Embargo to be lifted. And an equitable distribution of land which redresses the injustices meted out to the Palestinians in the aftermath of the Nakba in 48, and the later 1967 war.

Since then, Israel, with American backing has steadily, and systematically encroached upon Palestinian rights and annexed their land arbitrarily. Is it wrong to ask for reparations for all these crimes, which as Richard Falk pointed out, are tantamount to crimes against humanity. When you have 1.5 million people being tortured for the actions of a few, and this is endorsed by the US, surely you cannot reproach the Palestinains for defending their rights.
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
If the scenario that you've alluded to does transpire, the next step would be with regards to israel, either to demand immedieate cessation of all hostilities and withdrawal to the pre 1967 borders, or the total liberation of all Palestine. It would have to be a considered policy.
If Israel refuses?
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
This is not true. The Palestinian aim is not to destroy or kill israelis, it is to seek justice.
Is it not Hamas's aim? Is it not Islamic Jihad's aim? They too are Palestinians.
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Thinker
12-28-2008, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
This is not true. The Palestinian aim is not to destroy or kill israelis, it is to seek justice. We want a viable Palestinian state, we want this separation barrier, settlements and checkpoints dismantled. The Embargo to be lifted. And an equitable distribution of land which redresses the injustices meted out to the Palestinians in the aftermath of the Nakba in 48, and the later 1967 war.
Indeed but that's not what Hamas wants!

The Hamas party platform, articulated in the 1988 Hamas Charter, provides a useful glimpse into what they want:

* Hamas' goal is Jihad and the death of Jews (Art. 7);
* All Muslims are duty-bound to commit Jihad against Israel (Art. 12);
* Peace is not an option (Art. 13);
* Western culture is a Zionist plot to distance women from Islam (Art. 17)
* Peace accords are treacherous schemes of Zionists (Art. 32);
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Wilma_Hum
12-28-2008, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
This is not true. The Palestinian aim is not to destroy or kill israelis, it is to seek justice. We want a viable Palestinian state, we want this separation barrier, settlements and checkpoints dismantled. The Embargo to be lifted. And an equitable distribution of land which redresses the injustices meted out to the Palestinians in the aftermath of the Nakba in 48, and the later 1967 war.

Since then, Israel, with American backing has steadily, and systematically encroached upon Palestinian rights and annexed their land arbitrarily. Is it wrong to ask for reparations for all these crimes, which as Richard Falk pointed out, are tantamount to crimes against humanity. When you have 1.5 million people being tortured for the actions of a few, and this is endorsed by the US, surely you cannot reproach the Palestinains for defending their rights.
The destruction of Israel is one of the stated objectives of Hamas.

The Palestinians sent Suicide Bombers then Israel built the separation barrier.
It was a protective action.

The checkpoints intensified because the Palestinians sent Suicide Bombers.

I have no desire to defend Israel, I only care to defend the facts. I think the creation of Israel was morally wrong. But history has no "Undo" switch.

Could Israel have ever become a peaceful country?

We will never know because they have never been given a chance.
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Thinker
12-28-2008, 09:26 PM
The solution is to have one country for both Palestinians and Jews and call it Canaan. Draw up a decent constitution making it a secular state with proportional representation - job done.

Where do I get the application forms for Tony Blair's Job?
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Civilsed
12-28-2008, 09:27 PM
Asalam alaykum,

The zionist regime of israel has killed over 300 palestinians, and wouded over 1000 people. Please make dua's for those who have lost their live, their families and those who are still having to live though this.

If you are able to please make a donation to muslum hands

a/c name: Muslim hands
Bank: natwest
Sort code 60-11-33
Accounts number 22820000
BIC code NWBK GB 2L
IBan no GB32 NWBK 6011 3322 8200 00

www.muslimhands.org

Jazak Allah khair
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chacha_jalebi
12-28-2008, 09:33 PM
in addition ^

trees only cost £10 dats nothin, like a nice meal costs more then a tenna, so only a tenna can donate a olive tree, plus you can name them, so name the trees after the sahaba innaay!
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
The solution is to have one country for both Palestinians and Jews and call it Canaan. Draw up a decent constitution making it a secular state with proportional representation - job done.

Where do I get the application forms for Tony Blair's Job?
Just one tiny problem: religion. Do you really expect ultra orthodox jews and religious muslims to live happily together? In a secular state? :exhausted
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Wilma_Hum
12-28-2008, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
^ what peace?

why dont israel stop bombin innocents, then peace will be achieved, why is peace only talked about when muslims do somethin, its a 2 way thing peace not a one way thing,
I guess the reason Israel doesn't stop bombin innocents is different that the reason the Palestinians continue to target innocents with there rockets.

Your right that peace is " a 2 way thing" and "not a one way thing".

So my question is why do you only speak out against one side?
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 09:47 PM
Umm...why did you delete my post?
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'Abd-al Latif
12-28-2008, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Wilma_Hum
I guess the reason Israel doesn't stop bombin innocents is different that the reason the Palestinians continue to target innocents with there rockets.

Your right that peace is " a 2 way thing" and "not a one way thing".

So my question is why do you only speak out against one side?
Because the oppression from Israel is apparent, while the most hamas have done is either bring a small damage to a building or hit empty ground!

The Israelis, however, massacered 1000's of woman and children during Lebenons bombardment for capturing 2 Israeli soldiers who crossed the borders of Lebenon. Now they retaliate on the Palistinians for a cease fire treaty they broke and they use Hama's rockets as an excuse to exterminate woman and children for no apparent reasons, since they broke the peace deal to begin with!

Hamas fires a rocket which makes no more then a hole in a wall, and in turn Israel massacer 300 (and rising) innocent woman and children and injure over 600. If this happened to your country you wouldn't dare ask such a question.
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chacha_jalebi
12-28-2008, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by Wilma_Hum
I guess the reason Israel doesn't stop bombin innocents is different that the reason the Palestinians continue to target innocents with there rockets.

Your right that peace is " a 2 way thing" and "not a one way thing".

So my question is why do you only speak out against one side?
well killin innocents is haraam, if a palestinian did that, then they are wrong, all muslims say that,

and what do palestinians do, throw a stone or summin or even a rocket in the middle of the street and israel "responds" with massive strikes, israel is in the wrong, if it wants peace it shouldnt "retaliate", period!


all i can say is that Allah (Swt) will deal with those who transgress
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Wilma_Hum
12-28-2008, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
well killin innocents is haraam, if a palestinian did that, then they are wrong, all muslims say that,

all i can say is that Allah (Swt) will deal with those who transgress
It is only Muslims that say killing innocents is wrong. Everyone says that killing innocents is wrong. But then use an alternate definition of "Innocent".

The problem is that the killing will never stop until both sides what peace as a prime objective.
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Because the opression from Israel is apparent, while the most hamas have done is either bring a small damage to a building or hit empty ground!

Why does hamas launch them if their so useless?

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The Israelis, however, massacered 1000's of woman and children during Lebenons bombardment for capturing 2 Israeli soldiers who crossed the borders of Lebenon.
If Hezbullah had never kidnapped those soldiers, all those people would not have died.

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Now they retaliate on the Palistinians for a cease fire treaty they broke.
Wrong, hamas broke it.

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
and they use Hama's rockets as an excuse to exterminate woman and children for no apparent reasons, since they broke the peace deal to begin with!
Well obviously, it was their rockets that caused this all.


Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Hamas fires a rocket which makes no more then a hole in a wall, and in turn Israel massacer 300 (and rising) innocent woman and children and injure over 600. If this happened to your country you wouldn't dare ask such a question.
Im pretty sure if you were Israeli you would be angry at Gaza.
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
and what do palestinians do, throw a stone or summin or even a rocket in the middle of the street and israel "responds" with massive strikes, israel is in the wrong, if it wants peace it shouldnt "retaliate", period!
Well then what exactly should Israel do? Live in bomb shelters their whole life?
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KAding
12-28-2008, 10:14 PM
The Israeli message to the Gaza population seems clear: elect a party that wants war and you'll get war.

The Israeli message to Hamas seems even clearer: we will smash you if you even dare lift a finger against us.

Sad :(. The solution seems so obvious, return to 1967 borders. This is something, however, that neither Hamas nor Israeli fundis are willing to accept. And so it goes on and on.
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IslamicRevival
12-28-2008, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Why does hamas launch them if their so useless?



If Hezbullah had never kidnapped those soldiers, all those people would not have died.



Wrong, hamas broke it.



Well obviously, it was their rockets that caused this all.




I'm pretty sure if you were Israeli you would be angry at Gaza.

Take your ANTI Palestine and PRO Israel views elsewhere!!

America supply weapons to these mass murdering Jews who are killing palestinians.

"WAR ON TERROR"? HA!

THIS IS A WAR ON ISLAM Not just Palestine.

And like i said before The sooner Iran have a nuclear bomb the better! And this time I don't care if i sound controversial!

GO Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

GO IRAN!
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'Abd-al Latif
12-28-2008, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Why does hamas launch them if their so useless?
Unlike the Israeli's, Hamas don't have hi-tech equipment so they deal with what they have.

If Hezbullah had never kidnapped those soldiers, all those people would not have died.
And why did hezbollah kidnap them in the first place?? Don't be so foolish to think that if soldiers from your nabouring country crossed the border the same wouldn't happen to them!


Wrong, hamas broke it.
Well obviously, it was their rockets that caused this all.
Really? Did you hear that in the news or did you hear that from the civilians living in Gaza?

Israel stopped attacking, agreed. Did they lift the blockades which will allow food and all other forms of support which the Palistinians are in need of?? No!

Was it breached by an Israeli raid on the Palistinians? Look it up and your in for a surprise!

Im pretty sure if you were Israeli you would be angry at Gaza.
As I said in my previous post, who needs this cease-fire treaty more, Israel who is backed by political support, weapons and men or an over-croweded Palistine who hardly have any weapons except rocks and stones that they throw at tanks and soldiers?

If I was a sincere Israeli, I would think my government is a over-reactional bloody tyrant!
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
No its all about stopping these bast*** Americans/Israelis from TEARING US MUSLIMS APART.
Israel draws Muslims together on its own. Iran is just the PR.
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
I do recognize that the jews have always had a historic presence in the region, but the persecution of the Palestinians, the right of return, the dispossession, the ignominy of check points, the settlements, all this must be stopped and reversed.
Not sure what you meant there. Do you want Jews to be prevented from returning to Israel or do you want Palestinians to be allowed to return?
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Unlike the Israeli's, Hamas don't have hi-tech equipment so they deal with what they have.
Yet why launch them in the first place if their so useless! and do nothing, as you state. Why not have hamas say, "Israel, this is enough. We're tired of fighting. We want everlasting peace. Let's talk," as Egypt and Jordan did. Guess what? Their not at war with Israel! Negotiating works!

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
And why did hezbollah kidnap them in the first place?? Don't be so foolish to think that if soldiers from your nabouring country crossed the border the same wouldn't happen to them!
Oh please. Hezbullah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped the sodeirs. This what happened. Nothing else.


Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Really? Did you hear that in the news or did you hear that from the civilians living in Gaza?
The news of course.

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Israel stopped attacking, agreed. Did they lift the blockades which will allow food and all other forms of support which the Palistinians are in need of?? No!
As stated above, if hamas decided to negotiate with Israel, things would (slowly) get better.

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
If I was a sincere Israeli, I would think my government is a over-reactional bloody tyrant!
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
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Whatsthepoint
12-28-2008, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
If I was a sincere Israeli, I would think my government is a over-reactional bloody tyrant!
The election is near and Kadima is increasingly loosing votes to Likud who supports a tougher stance towards Palestinians. Perhaps the wide scale attacks are Kadima's way to gain popularity with the voters. If this is the case, well all I can say... politics...
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KAding
12-28-2008, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by nocturnal
There can be no such concept as international consensus on this when the nations defining the consensus are the ones who have deep and vested interests in the security of israel.
What 'vested interests in the security of Israel' do these countries have according to you? Personally, I don't see what interests those are. The costs of supporting Israel and angering many Muslim countries is obvious, especially considering their strategic importance concerning the supply of fossil fuels. What are the advantages of supporting Israel exactly?
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'Abd-al Latif
12-28-2008, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Yet why launch them in the first place if their so useless! and do nothing, as you state. Why not have hamas say, "Israel, this is enough. We're tired of fighting. We want everlasting peace. Let's talk," as Egypt and Jordan did. Guess what? Their not at war with Israel! Negotiating works!
Go ahead and ask them but don't make baseless assumptions for their attacks because you don't know what their reasons are nor why and who they fire at. You won't hear Israel and the news channels tell you that except "they want to spread terror"!

You have secular views so you won't understand they long conflict. The news is filled with a one sided story of Israel, the muslim-jew history goes way back and as history tells us it's the jews who have caused a lot of the problems.

Oh please. Hezbullah crossed the border into Israel and kidnapped the sodeirs. This what happened. Nothing else.
The news of course.
Then you're views are nothing more then biased wishful thinking.

Since your only source is the news don't expect a two-sided story, if that was the case you will know Hamas inside out from their own words and not 10% of Hamas and 90% 'What we (i.e. Un - Israel) think Hamas goals are'.

Open your mind and give a fair judgement. Pour water on a glass that's upside down and see if you can fill the glass with water, it'll never work.

You hear all about Israel blaming the minority Palistinians being 'terrorist groups' and 'attacking israel' and 'breaching cease-fire', and Israel is all innocent and never does anything to ever provoke poor ol' tiny Palistine who barely have weapons, mens or any basic support to live from anywhere in the world!

As stated above, if hamas decided to negotiate with Israel, things would (slowly) get better.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Talk to the Israeli president, Hamas isn't the problem it's the illegally occupied Israel which legally belongs to Palistine.

Look into history because all of this didn't happen over night.
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MKE Brother
12-28-2008, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The election is near and Kadima is increasingly loosing votes to Likud who supports a tougher stance towards Palestinians. Perhaps the wide scale attacks are Kadima's way to gain popularity with the voters. If this is the case, well all I can say... politics...
Agreed, the whole thing reeks of politics. What better way to instill a sense of nationalism and power in your party before an election than to start bombing people on false or shaky grounds? It is right out of the Bush/Cheney/Rove playbook.
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Mr. Sandman
12-28-2008, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Go ahead and ask them but don't make baseless assumptions for their attacks because you don't know what their reasons are nor why and who they fire at. You won't hear Israel and the news channels tell you that except "they want to spread terror"!

You have secular views so you won't understand they long conflict. The news is filled with a one sided story of Israel, the muslim-jew history goes way back and as history tells us it's the jews who have caused a lot of the problems.
Of course I know what their reasons are. They are sick of Israel controlling them and what them the **** out. I once supported them, as well as hezbullah, until I realized using violence is not the way to achieve anything. Whether its by sending suicide bombers into Israel or firing rockets indiscriminately, violence is not the way.

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Then you're views are nothing more then biased wishful thinking.

Since your only source is the news don't expect a two-sided story, if that was the case you will know Hamas inside out from their own words and not 10% of Hamas and 90% 'What we (i.e. Un - Israel) think Hamas goals are'.

You hear all about Israel blaming the minority Palistinians being 'terrorist groups' and 'attacking israel' and 'breaching cease-fire', and Israel is all innocent and never does anything to ever provoke poor ol' tiny Palistine who barely have weapons, mens or any basic support from anywhere in the world!
Did I ever say I am against the Palestians? I am against hamas and every other terrorist group that knows nothing but violence.

Talk to the Israeli president, Hamas isn't the problem it's the illegally occupied Israel which legally belongs to Palistine.

Look into history because all of this didn't happen over night.[/QUOTE]

Why don't you look into history and see what non violence can achieve and how violence gets us no where?
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islamirama
12-28-2008, 11:34 PM
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Muhammad
12-28-2008, 11:52 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

Please remember to discuss the topic at hand in a civil manner, as per forum rules. Any posts found to be off-topic, unconstructive or otherwise negatively contributing to the thread will be removed. May I also request members to avoid using foul language, even if only indicated by stars.

Thank you for your cooperation.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Of course I know what their reasons are. They are sick of Israel controlling them and what them the **** out. I once supported them, as well as hezbullah, until I realized using violence is not the way to achieve anything. Whether its by sending suicide bombers into Israel or firing rockets indiscriminately, violence is not the way.

Did I ever say I am against the Palestians? I am against hamas and every other terrorist group that knows nothing but violence.

Why don't you look into history and see what non violence can achieve and how violence gets us no where?
And whose fighting for Palistine in Palistine? It's Hamas and no one else!

Hamas is neither a terrorist group nor is it promoting the violence. And nor am I promoting terrorism or violence, but I do support fighting those who fight you, and what's happening to Palistine is oppression with a fake label of justice. Any individual with common sence will agree to the following:

Allah says:

Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

[Surah Al Mumtahinah 60:8-9]

I'm sure if someone attacked you, you will fight back.

Let's go back mid 1940's and see who began this violence.

Oh and did I forget to mention how many people are dieing in Palistine as opposed to Israel?

Death toll for Palistine: 300+ and 600 Injured

Israeli: 1 dead.


Whose using the violence? Palistine or Israel?

Lebenon Death toll of 2006:

estimate 1200 dead and many more injured - mainly woman and children because the armies didn't have a single encounter!

Israel:

156 dead!

Shall we carry on with the statics or do you have something better to say? Who are the blatent terrorists labeled as heros?!
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The_Prince
12-29-2008, 12:22 AM
Egypt should open the border, and keep it open, and allow goods and aid to go through, and allow the injured out.
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Woodrow
12-29-2008, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
Egypt should open the border, and keep it open, and allow goods and aid to go through, and allow the injured out.
:sl:
Very true Akhi. I get very frustrated over the inaction of some of our own brothers and sisters living in nations that border Palestine, or what was Palestine.
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Keltoi
12-29-2008, 04:41 AM
Israel doesn't appear to be ready to call it off at all. In fact they seem to be preparing for a wider military campaign.
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wth1257
12-29-2008, 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Israel was under attack and it fought back. They targeted Hamas. It's not Israels fault Hamas put their bases inside civilian areas.
Palis are the victims, no doubt about that. But the means they're using to fight Israel make them loose credibility.
Take a look at Tibet. 50 years of low tone non-violent resistance and almost the entire international community supports them.
The UN has passed numerous resolutions regarding Israel's behavior. The World Court condemned the settlements. World opinion is largely against Israel’s more horrendous actions. I believe Islamic Jihad is the main party behind the rocket firing, but regardless of the origin the indiscriminate firing of rockets into civilian populations is indefensible. At the same time Israel is not "under attack" in any traditional sense. This is not some foreign sovereign power arbitrarily attacking another foreign sovereign power. You are talking about a large, civilian population which has been reduced to, essentially, a large prison, and upon which Israel practices collective punishment.
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wth1257
12-29-2008, 04:57 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
Egypt should open the border, and keep it open, and allow goods and aid to go through, and allow the injured out.
Then their corrupt little thug of a President wouldn’t have an issue to feign moral outrage over. It seems that all these surrounding authoritarian regimes do a lot of talk regarding the suffering and legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people, but really just want to have some issue to incite their own populations and divert attention from their own atrocities. My heart goes out to the Palestinians. It seems like the general Muslim populace has genuine empathy for their plight, yet those populaces are under the eyes of authoritarian regimes that only use this plight to their own advantage. Israel isn’t likely to change their tune any time soon; I mean for God sakes they elected Sharon, a war criminal if there ever was one. And the US is under the thumb of a complacent corporate media and politicians answering the rabid, racist whims of Christian Zionists. Ironically enough, American Jews are more liberal and often less Zionistic than the Evangelical Christians. Hopefully the European Union, as it rises to power, will assert itself somehow and try to help those poor people.
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Woodrow
12-29-2008, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Israel doesn't appear to be ready to call it off at all. In fact they seem to be preparing for a wider military campaign.
From a military standpoint, that is the only option they have.

The problem is the military option is not always the correct one, especially when it will result in widespread loss of innocent lives.
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wth1257
12-29-2008, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
And whose fighting for Palistine in Palistine? It's Hamas and no one else!


Attacking Israeli civilians isn’t going to help (not to mentioned abuses towards their own population). It jus gives more ammunition to right wing Israeli groups and excuses for keeping the Palestinian people under thumb. The Palestinians are not going to militarily defeat Israel.
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wth1257
12-29-2008, 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow

The problem is the military option is not always the correct one, especially when it will result in widespread loss of innocent lives.

Unfortunately I think the message Israel has been clearly sent is that Palestinian lives are cheep and no where near as valuable as Western or Israeli lives. Even if they get caught how likely is it to appear on CNN?
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 08:26 AM
Gaza braces for all-out war


Children were among the hundreds of casualties from the bombardment of Gaza [AFP]

Israeli forces have been massing on the border of the Gaza Strip as warplanes and helicopter gunships continue to pound the territory.

In the latest attacks, Israeli aircraft bombed the Islamic university and government buildings in Gaza City.

An Israeli army spokesman said that the university's laboratory was used for the development of weapons.

More than 300 Palestinians have been killed since Israel began the offensive on Saturday, according to Palestinian medical sources.

The ministry of health in Gaza has said that about five per cent of the dead were children, while the UN relief and works agency said figures gathered from local medics showed that 51 civilians have been killed.

A 14-month-old child, two women and a man were killed in an attack on the Jebaliya refugee camp near Gaza City late on Sunday, Palestinian medics said.

Tzipi Livni, the Israeli foreign minister, told the US media that Israel was only targeting Hamas and other armed Palestinian groups.

"Unfortunately in a war ... sometimes also civilians pay the price," she said.

She also told NBC's Meet The Press: "Our goal is not to reoccupy Gaza Strip."

Military build-up

However, with hundreds of troops and tanks being deployed along the edge of the territory there were growing fears that the offensive could escalate.

"The indications here on the ground are certainly that the build-up is there, that the preparations are there for a ground offensive," Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from Izmit in Israel, said.

The Israeli cabinet approved the call-up of 6,500 military reservists and Ehud Barak, Israel's defence minister, has warned that the air raids could be followed by a ground offensive.

"If it's necessary to deploy ground forces to defend our citizens, we will do so," Barak's spokesman quoted him as saying.

Earlier on Sunday, Israeli aircraft bombed the length of the Gaza-Egypt border, taking out tunnels used to smuggle in vital goods to the besieged strip.

Dozens of tunnels are said to criss-cross between southern Gaza and Egypt's Sinai desert, providing a lifeline to residents who are starved of basic supplies due to an 18-month-long Israeli blockade.

Avital Leibovitch, an Israeli army spokeswoman, said: "The air force just attacked over 40 tunnels found on the Gaza side of the border.

"We believe [they] were used for smuggling weapons, explosives and sometimes people," she said. "The pilots notified direct hits on these targets."

'Devastating blow'

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Rafah, a town split in half by the border, said at least one person died and 42 others were injured in the attacks on the tunnels.

"It's certainly a devastating blow to the civilian population in Gaza," he said, adding that speculation the tunnels might be hit had already caused the price of fuel and other goods to soar.

Palestinians attempting to flee the Israeli bombardment managed to breach the border fence with Israel, prompting clashes with security forces during which at least one person was killed.

Tensions at the crossing with Egypt, bypassing Israel, had risen during the day, with Egypt blaming Hamas for not letting wounded Palestinians through and Hamas asking for medical aid to be handed over.

Israel said it began its aerial assault on Gaza in response to rocket attacks launched by Hamas fighters into the south of the country.

A six-month truce between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip ended on December 19.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...391597829.html
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Thinker
12-29-2008, 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
Take your ANTI Palestine and PRO Israel views elsewhere!!

America supply weapons to these mass murdering Jews who are killing palestinians.

"WAR ON TERROR"? HA!

THIS IS A WAR ON ISLAM Not just Palestine.

And like i said before The sooner Iran have a nuclear bomb the better! And this time I don't care if i sound controversial!

GO Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

GO IRAN!

OK let's just walk through this scenario step by step . . .
1. Iran fires a rocket or two with a nuclear warhead into Israel.
2. ???????????????????
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Thinker
12-29-2008, 10:31 AM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Hamas isn't the problem it's the illegally occupied Israel which legally belongs to Palistine.
I'd really like to know why you think the land currently known as Israel legally belongs to the Palestinians (not saying your wrong or right, I just want to know what is the basis for this belief)?
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
And whose fighting for Palistine in Palistine? It's Hamas and no one else!

Hamas is neither a terrorist group nor is it promoting the violence. And nor am I promoting terrorism or violence, but I do support fighting those who fight you, and what's happening to Palistine is oppression with a fake label of justice. Any individual with common sence will agree to the following:
Sending suicide bombers into Israel is not terrorism?
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I'd really like to know why you think the land currently known as Israel legally belongs to the Palestinians (not saying your wrong or right, I just want to know what is the basis for this belief)?
I think you quoting wrong....?
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Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 11:48 AM
51 civilians died according to UNRWA.
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Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
And bombing innocent Palestinians who who cant defend themselves is not terrorism?
Why are they firing rockets if they cannot defend themselves?
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crayon
12-29-2008, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
Egypt should open the border, and keep it open, and allow goods and aid to go through, and allow the injured out.
I completely agree.

Question I was thinking about yesterday- Who controls Gaza's shoreline? Israel? Egypt?
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crayon
12-29-2008, 01:21 PM
For those who advocate Iran using nukes on Israel- What the hell? Wouldn't the radiation from nukes also affect nearby cities/countries in the region?
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MKE Brother
12-29-2008, 01:42 PM
Quite the divide;

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crayon
12-29-2008, 01:43 PM
Since the only way either side is responding is through violence, I propose a solution to even the odds.

Give both Israel and Palestine thousands of horses and swords and bows and spears, let them meet somewhere in the empty land, and may the best army win.
This solution leaves the civilians out of it, accounts for financial differences between the 2 people, and has whoever wins it win the land fair and square.

Todays war is an utter joke.
And not the funny kind.
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Izyan
12-29-2008, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Just one tiny problem: religion. Do you really expect ultra orthodox jews and religious muslims to live happily together? In a secular state? :exhausted
Sure they do here in the US. Just look at Chicago
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Sure they do here in the US. Just look at Chicago
Sure it can happen in America...but in the Middle East...especially with all those holy sights...
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Banu_Hashim
12-29-2008, 01:56 PM
I just can't believe the lack of compassion and mercy that Israel has. And it's not just the government/army; it's the whole country and it's people (as evidenced by that woman's account by MKE Brother)
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
I just can't believe the lack of compassion and mercy that Israel has. And it's not just the government/army; it's the whole country and it's people (as evidenced by that woman's account by MKE Brother)
It's also the same in Gaza/Palestine. Take the Mercaz Harav shooting, with all those Gazans celebrating the massacre of 8 students....
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Izyan
12-29-2008, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
I just can't believe the lack of compassion and mercy that Israel has. And it's not just the government/army; it's the whole country and it's people (as evidenced by that woman's account by MKE Brother)
Considering the firepower Israel has to even be able to talk about a palestinian people is showing a lot of mercy and compassion. What do you think Gaius Octavius Thurinus, Saladin, or Haj Amin al-Husayni would do in Israels place?
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*Yasmin*
12-29-2008, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Sure they do here in the US. Just look at Chicago
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Sure it can happen in America...but in the Middle East...especially with all those holy sights...
with the injustice goverment right now it's hard, how could we live togther "happily" while they violate our rights and occupy our lands!!
if we live togother that does not mean we live happily, may be it just says we adjust live togother,"with reservation"
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Izyan
12-29-2008, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by *Yasmin*
with the injustice goverment right now it's hard, how could we live togther "happily" while they violate our rights and occupy our lands!!
if we live togother that does not mean we live happily, may be it just says we adjust live togother,"with reservation"
Are you a Philistine?
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*Yasmin*
12-29-2008, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
It's also the same in Gaza/Palestine. Take the Mercaz Harav shooting, with all those Gazans celebrating the massacre of 8 students....
Mr.sandman
i don't advocate violence, but could you give us a solution how could Palestinians defend them selfs among all this attaks and assualts?!
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*Yasmin*
12-29-2008, 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Are you a Philistine?

yes i'm but palestinian lives in israel carrys the Israeli identity! (if you heard about arab 48)
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Izyan
12-29-2008, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by *Yasmin*
yes i'm but palestinian lives in israel carrys the Israeli identity! (if you heard about arab 48)
I said Philistine not Palestinian. You know the people that settled in Caanan from ancient Greece during the reign of Ramsises? If not what gives you claim to the land? Do you have a lease agreement? a deed? a plot claim? anything?
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Izyan
12-29-2008, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by *Yasmin*
Mr.sandman
i don't advocate violence, but could you give us a solution how could Palestinians defend them selfs among all this attaks and assualts?!
How about in the same way the Indians drove out the British or African Americans got their rights in the US? Even better how about a negotiated peace like Jordan and Eygpt has with Israel?
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Keltoi
12-29-2008, 03:00 PM
If anything good can come out of this I hope it is to convince Hamas and others that to continue provoking Israeli military reaction by firing ineffective rockets is a doomed strategy. The only solution is negotiation.
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by *Yasmin*
Mr.sandman
i don't advocate violence, but could you give us a solution how could Palestinians defend them selfs among all this attaks and assualts?!
My only solution is not to fight back, because that will lead you no where. You attack, they attack back. They attack, you attack back. It has been like this for more than sixty years. Has violence worked...? Clearly not. They are stronger and you know it. Their suffocating the Palestinans rights, yes, but I think that negoitating with them will eventually lead to peace.

It will take time, of course, but that is much better than blood. That's is my solution.
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wth1257
12-29-2008, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
I completely agree.

Question I was thinking about yesterday- Who controls Gaza's shoreline? Israel? Egypt?
I believe Israel has a blockade
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crayon
12-29-2008, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by wth1257
I believe Israel has a blockade
Ah right, that makes sense, thanks.
I was wondering why no one was trying to send anything in from there. :P



There's a protest going on outside the israeli embassy in london right now, they're getting quite a lot of press coverage.
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Banu_Hashim
12-29-2008, 05:28 PM
Really? If I knew about it, I would have tried to go...
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Banu_Hashim
12-29-2008, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by wth1257
I believe Israel has a blockade
On both sides of Gaza?
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crayon
12-29-2008, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Banu_Hashim
On both sides of Gaza?
On everything but the Egyptian border, I think.
And the protest is still going on, if you live nearby..
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Banu_Hashim
12-29-2008, 05:35 PM
Well, I live about 100 miles away so not exactly close...
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Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
Israel are bombing Palestine

Palestine are firing rockets in retaliation

What do you expect palestine to do? Sit back and let them kill innocent muslims?
It's the other way around actually.
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islamirama
12-29-2008, 05:44 PM
important: this article is being circulated to inform our muslim brothers and sisters as to the current affairs affecting the muslims; circulation of this article should therefore not be misconstrued as anything but the sharing of such information.


First Published 2008-12-28


Can There Be Any Doubt Who The Real Terrorists Are?

The long drawn-out siege and blockade of Gaza, and the numerous military assaults on its people and their legitimate government, are only the latest (Israeli) crimes in a catalogue of torment and terror, notes Stuart Littlewood.

US definition fits perfectly

The patience of all decent men must surely be exhausted.

Today's slaughter of innocents in Gaza, with at least 230 reported killed in raids on "Hamas terror operatives" (as the Israeli military put it), amounted to "a mass execution", said Hamas.

Can there now be any doubt who the real terrorists are?

The killing spree couldn't have happened without the tacit approval of America, Britain and the EU. The political pea-brains that direct the pro-Israel western alliance were partying, gorging themselves on Christmas fare or binge-shopping while this massacre of hungry women and children and their despairing menfolk in Gaza was being planned and executed.

According to the US's own definition of terrorism Israel is squarely in the frame. Under Section 3 of Executive Order 13224 "Blocking Property and prohibiting Transactions with Persons who commit, threaten to commit, or support Terrorism", the term "terrorism" means an activity that

(i) involves a violent act or an act dangerous to human life, property, or infrastructure; and

(ii) appears to be intended

• to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

• to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

• to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, kidnapping, or hostage-taking.

The order and its definition of terrorism, signed 23 September 2001 by George W Bush, is used to outlaw and crush any organization, individual or country the US doesn't like. The Israeli regime's "amoral thugs", as a British MP branded them, have plainly been terrorizing the Palestinians for the last 60 years.

The long drawn-out siege and blockade of Gaza, and the numerous military assaults on its people and their legitimate government, are only the latest crimes in a catalogue of torment and terror.
They are clearly attempts to "intimidate and coerce", while the mass destruction of Gaza's infrastructure, the withholding of humanitarian aid, the assassinations, the abductions, the bulldozing of Palestinian homes, and the many violent and dangerous acts including indiscriminate bombing and shelling (and the use of cluster bombs in Lebanon), ensure Israel's ugly head is a perfect fit for America's terrorist hat.

How does the world feel about Obama pledging to "forge an unshakeable bond" with the "miracle" of Terrorist Israel?

How do we feel about the EU rewarding Israel for its terrorist acts with enhanced benefits under the EU-Israel Association Agreement?

How do we Brits feel about our Intelligence and Security Committee being chaired by a Friend of Terrorist Israel and 5 out of its 9 members also being the Zionist regime's devoted Friends? How do we feel about our Foreign Affairs Committee being chaired by a Friend of Terrorist Israel...and our Defence Committee too?

Britain's prime minister Brown and his predecessor, now peace envoy Blair, both self-confessed Zionists, have given their undying support to a terrorist state and steered Britain's foreign policy on a course that has earned the opprobrium of civilised people.

The best Brown could do today was urge "restraint". He called on Gazan "militants" to "cease all rocket attacks on Israel immediately", but didn't urge his bosom pals to end the siege and their illegal occupation which, as every sane person knows, are the cause of the strife. Our Foreign Office went so far as to say they were "deeply concerned" then spouted the mantra: "The only way to achieve a lasting peace is through peaceful means".

The only peaceful means of achieving a lasting peace is for Western leaders to pull the plug on Israel until the regime conforms to international law and the will of the United Nations (without whose misguided generosity there would never have been a state of Israel), pulls back behind the 1967 border and strictly observes the principles of universal human rights.

If they don't shoulder their responsibility, they risk a mighty moral backlash from ordinary people, who are beginning to learn the awful truth.

Stuart Littlewood is author of the book Radio Free Palestine, which tells the plight of the Palestinians under occupation.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=29422
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islamirama
12-29-2008, 06:25 PM
Palestinian Holocaust Continues….

“In the face of sufferings of Afro-Americans, Vietnamese and Palestinians, my mother’s credo always was: We are all holocaust victims - Dr. Norman G. Finkelstein, in his best-seller, The Holocaust Industry.

The so-called “prophet” of Zionist movement, Theodor Herzl, though born to a Jewish mother, never claimed to be a practicing Jew and for his nationalist objectives - was willing to accept some land awarded to European Jews by the western powers, may it be Madagascar or Argentina, Uganda or Tripoli, Cyprus or Mozambique, or the Cong, according to Herzl’s Diaries.

“Leading the cry: We are God’s Chosen People, are the Zionist/Marxist (Ashkenazi) Jews, who for political purposes chose Judaism and who don’t have a drop of biblical Jewish blood in them (they’re Khazarian Turks). The Judeo-Christian ethic we hear so much about in America is a big joke - the result of an intense Zionist propaganda campaign,” - Jack Bernstein in his book The life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel.

Early in 1935, a passenger ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left the German port of Bremerhaven. Its sterm bore the Hebrew letter for its name “Tel Aviv” while the Nazi swastika banner fluttered from the mast. And although the ship was Zionist-owned, its Captain was a National Socialist Party (NAZI) member. The mentioning of this old episode is to show that the ZionFacist, who spend tens of millions of dollars annually to brainwash the western generation about the evil history of Nazi-era and Hitler - were in fact themselves collaborated not only with Hitler’s Third Reich, but some 150,000 German-Jews were part of Nazi Army.

Now, the so-called ‘Nazi victims’ are celebrating the end of Jewish Hannukkah holidays by spilling more blood of innocent Muslims and Christians in Hamas-ruled Gazzah. They began carpet-bombing the tiny area housing 1.5 million Natives on Dec. 27, and their Zionazi assualt has entered its third day, today. So far more than 300 Palestinians are reported martyred and several hundreds more wounded. The Zionist-regimes in the US and Britain has used their veto power against UN Security Council’s condemnation of Israeli invasion of Gazzah. Iran’s Spiritual Leader, Ayatullah Khameini, threw his support behimd Hamas government and said that all the victims of Israeli thugs are “martyrs”. Israel’s longest Muslim ally, the Kemalist Turkey’s prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan condemned the Zionist regime of using “disproportionate force”.

As expected, the majority of western puppet regimes in the Muslim world kept their mouths shut in fear of USrael backlash - hundreds of thousands protestors hit the streets in Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Islamabad, and Tehran - burning flags of Usrael and its chief ally, United States - accusing both governments in engaging in international terrorism.

http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2008/12...ust-continues/

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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Why are you avoiding the question? IS SENDING SUICIDE BOMBERS INTO ISRAEL TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE A FORM TERRORISM?
First of all, nobody is going into Israel because the Palistinians are caged in that tiny Gaza stip like a bird in a cage.

Secondly, what would you do if you were surrounded by Israeli soldiers who were going to kill you and your family, but you had the chance to kill them all in a single blast and save your family but it would come at the expence of your own life. What would you do??
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 08:47 PM
Israel in 'all-out war' with Hamas


At least 51 Palestinian civilians have been killed in Israeli air raids, the UN says [Reuters]


Israel's military is in an "all-out war" with Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Ehud Barak, the defence minister, says.

Palestinian medical sources say at least 345 Gazans have been killed and another 1,450 wounded in three consecutive days of Israeli bombardment in the heavily-populated territory.

"We have nothing against Gaza residents, but we are engaged in an all-out war against Hamas and its proxies," Barak said on Monday.

There were also growing fears that a ground offensive was being planned after Israel declared a "closed military zone" around the Gaza Strip.

Israel says the creation of a buffer zone along the border will help protect it from rocket attacks.

Civilians, including journalists, could be banned from an area between 2km and 4km deep under the policy. On previous occasions, such a move has sometimes been followed by military operations.

"This operation will expand and deepen as much as needed," Barak said. "We went to war to deal a heavy blow to Hamas, to change the situation in the south."

Trapped Palestinians

Tanks and troops have been massed in the area since the attacks, referred to by the Israeli military as Operation Cast Lead, was launched on Saturday.

Al Jazeera's Ayman Mohyeldin, reporting from Gaza City, said that there was little the residents of Gaza could do to prepare for any possible ground assault.

"In a city that is so densely-populated, a ground offensive would mean urban warfare, street-to-street fighting ... leaving many Palestinians in the crossfire," he said.

"Unlike other conflict zones where there is the possibility to flee the war zone, Gaza itself has become the war zone. There is nowhere for the population to go, they are in the middle of all these attacks."

Israel said it began pounding the Gaza Strip with missiles fired from warplanes and helicopter gunships in order to halt the rocket and mortar attacks by Palestinian fighters.

"Military officials said yesterday that this operation will go on until Hamas stops firing missiles into southern Israel," Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel Hamid, reporting from southern Israel, said.

"They are also very much aware that they wouldn't really be able to stop that, but at least they will try to degrade the capability of Hamas."

Israeli justification

Scores of rockets have hit southern Israel since the offensive got under way.

On Monday, an Israeli Arab was killed and eight others wounded when one of the missiles hit a construction site in the city of Ashkelon.

Speaking to Al Jazeera, Tzipi Livni, the Israeli foreign minister, said the Israeli offensive was aimed at Hamas and not the Palestinian people.

"We tried to avoid this. You know that Israel accepted the truce that was initiated by the Egyptians in order to create peace and quiet. We adopted the truce. What we got in return? We got in return daily attacks, we got in return smuggling of weapons to Gaza Strip with long-range [capabilities]," she said.

Livni also appealed to Palestinian civilians to leave for safer places within the Gaza Strip and advised them against staying in places close to Hamas infrastructure.

Support for Israel came from the US, with the White House saying Hamas must halt cross-border rocket fire.

"In order for the violence to stop, Hamas must stop firing rockets into Israel and agree to respect a sustainable and durable ceasefire," Gordon Johndroe, a White House spokesman said.

Ban Ki-Moon, the UN secretary-general, meanwhile, urged Arab and world leaders to press for an end to the violence in the Gaza Strip.


Israeli air raids have pounded the heavily-populated Gaza Strip for three days [AFP]


Egyptian gesture

On Monday, Egyptian authorities allowed ambulances carrying several wounded Palestinians to cross into Egypt through the Rafah border crossing for medical treatment.

Hospitals in Gaza have been overwhelmed by casualties since Israel started its aerial blitz on the territory.

Egypt also allowed lorries loaded with humanitarian aid to enter its border crossing with the Gaza Strip. Lorries with food and medical supplies have been lining up outside the Egypt-Gaza border since early morning.

The UN relief and works agency said on Monday that at least 51 Palestinian civilians, including women and children, were confirmed to be among those killed in the Gaza Strip.

An UNRWA spokesman said the figure, which was based on visits to hospitals and medical centres was "conservative" and "certainly rising".

Four young girls from the same family in the northern town of Jabaliya and two young boy from Rafah were among those killed in the latest raids, Palestinian medics said.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros said the situation at the Shifa hospital in Gaza City was chaotic as the territory's health system struggled to cope with the more than 1,400 people injured.

"Hundreds of people are just waiting outside ... the problem is that there simply aren't enough beds to cope with the number of injured," she said.

"Medical sources here are telling us they are running out of everything, from gauzes to saline solutions, and critically now they are running out of almost every type of blood."

A six-month truce between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip ended on December 19.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...140674153.html
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 08:48 PM
Gaza hospitals struggle to cope

Following Israel's unprecedented assault on the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medics are working overtime to save lives.

But medical supplies in the besieged territory are low and hospitals are struggling to cope with the high number of casualties.

Al Jazeera's Ayman Mohyeldin reports.

Media Tags are no longer supported
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 08:50 PM
US firmly behind Israel over Gaza attacks

Even as the death toll in Gaza rises, US support for Israel's actions has not waivered.
Since the bombings began, the US has backed Israel to do whatever it takes to keep Israeli civilian casualties to a minimum.
Tom Ackerman has more from Washington, DC.

Media Tags are no longer supported
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Izyan
12-29-2008, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
First of all, nobody is going into Israel because the Palistinians are caged in that tiny Gaza stip like a bird in a cage.

Secondly, what would you do if you were surrounded by Israeli soldiers who were going to kill you and your family, but you had the chance to kill them all in a single blast and save your family but it would come at the expence of your own life. What would you do??
When they weren't locked in their cages a lot of pizzerias spontaneously combusted
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
First of all, nobody is going into Israel because the Palistinians are caged in that tiny Gaza stip like a bird in a cage.
Suicide bombers, that hamas and other militant groups in Gaza/West Bank have sent, have struck in Israel killing innocent civilians. That is a fact.

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Secondly, what would you do if you were surrounded by Israeli soldiers who were going to kill you and your family, but you had the chance to kill them all in a single blast and save your family but it would come at the expence of your own life. What would you do??
Well if they were to kill my family for no apparent reason, then yes, I would kill myself to save them. I would not go into Israel and blow myself among innocent civilians, a tactic hamas uses.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Suicide bombers, that hamas and other militant groups in Gaza/West Bank have sent, have struck in Israel killing innocent civilians. That is a fact.

Well if they were to kill my family for no apparent reason, then yes, I would kill myself to save them. (I've proven my point) I would not go into Israel and blow myself among innocent civilians, a tactic hamas uses.
Originally Posted by Izyan
When they weren't locked in their cages a lot of pizzerias spontaneously combusted
Really? So tell me, how did they get past the blockade which monitors every inch of the Gaza border, not allowing sometimes even humanitarian support at all, which has been the case at least for the past 8 months?
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The_Prince
12-29-2008, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
When they weren't locked in their cages a lot of pizzerias spontaneously combusted
you seem to act like its one way taffic, do you forget there is an occupation? and that many more Palestinians have been killed, and much more property has been destroyed? why act like its all one way traffic? and it seems you do agree with locking them up like a bird, which shows where your comming from, hopefully the same will befall you one day, :).
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The_Prince
12-29-2008, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
Suicide bombers, that hamas and other militant groups in Gaza/West Bank have sent, have struck in Israel killing innocent civilians. That is a fact.

Well if they were to kill my family for no apparent reason, then yes, I would kill myself to save them. I would not go into Israel and blow myself among innocent civilians, a tactic hamas uses.
correction, the suicide bombings killed many reservist soldiers, get your facts straight. secondly, the bombings were as a result of the occupation, something you so conveniantly miss, as well as the oppression that results from the occupation, perhaps you would like to mention that instead of ignoring it to portray Israel as the victim, they are the occupier.
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Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Really? So tell me, how did they get past the blockade which monitors every inch of the Gaza border, not allowing sometimes even humanitarian support at all, which has been the case at least for the past 8 months?
One of the purposes of the blockage was to prevent terrorist attacks. As it seems the mission was a success.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 09:10 PM
Mr. Sandman I've got one thing to say to you.

Ask a Palistinian who has lived in Palistine to confirm whether these statistics are true or not!

Stop asking non-muslims what the Muslims must be doing!
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Mr. Sandman I've got one thing to say to you.

Ask a Palistinian who has lived in Palistine to confirm whether these statistics are true or not!
These suicide bombing occured in Israel....

Stop asking non-muslims what the Muslims must be doing![/QUOTE]

Sorry, I did not understand that bit.
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Keltoi
12-29-2008, 09:17 PM
It will only be a matter of time before Hamas starts recruiting people for suicide attacks inside of Israel. The cycle will continue. The only hope is negotiation for a two state solution. That is and has always been the only solution.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
These suicide bombing occured in Israel....
Sorry, I did not understand that bit.
I meant to say, ask a the accused whether those statistics are true or not! Don't blindly accept what you see because obviously there is more to what meets the eye.

Be sincere if you really wanna get to the bottom of this and don't resort to non-muslim sources alone, look at a muslim source also and make a fair and just judgement.
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Keltoi
12-29-2008, 09:19 PM
Israel will not stand for another Intifada. If suicide attacks begin in Israel it will only lead to many, many more Palestinian deaths.
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Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
It will only be a matter of time before Hamas starts recruiting people for suicide attacks inside of Israel. The cycle will continue. The only hope is negotiation for a two state solution. That is and has always been the only solution.
Palestinians don't seem to like the idea.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Israel will not stand for another Intifada. If suicide attacks begin in Israel it will only lead to many, many more Palestinian deaths.
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Palestinians don't seem to like the idea.

And they won't like it either.

One thing i've been waiting for, for a very long time, is to hear from the Palistinians their reasons for the constant attacks on Israel.

All you ever hear is 'We will continue to attack'. There is more to it then that but the news channels will never show you that!
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Keltoi
12-29-2008, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Palestinians don't seem to like the idea.
They can choose liking a two state solution or liking perpetual conflict. Unfortunately I believe by electing Hamas they chose perpetual conflict. That is exactly what they will get.
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Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 09:27 PM
I guess Palis will have to wait for the Arab world to come together and amass a sufficient military power to confront Israel.
If tehy choose to rocket Israel in the meantime, well, its their own choice.
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'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
They can choose liking a two state solution or liking perpetual conflict. Unfortunately I believe by electing Hamas they chose perpetual conflict. That is exactly what they will get.
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I guess Palis will have to wait for the Arab world to come together and amass a sufficient military power to confront Israel.
If tehy choose to rocket Israel in the meantime, well, its their own choice.
And what does Hamas have to say about that?

Who knows, and probably we never will.

No one will start a war for no reason or justification, they have the lives of their people, their friends and family and their own selves to save rather then attacking a country which is backed by the UN and UK in any and every form of support.

Hamas, then, must have a justified reason to attack.
Reply

Keltoi
12-29-2008, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
And what does Hamas have to say about that?

Who knows, and probably we never will.

No one will start a war for no reason or justification, they have the lives of their people, their friends and family and their own selves to save rather then attacking a country which is backed by the UN and UK in any and every form of support.
I'm sure Hamas and their supporters believe there is justification and reason. Just as I'm sure the Israeli government believes there is justification and reason for launching their own attacks.
Reply

Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I meant to say, ask a the accused whether those statistics are true or not! Don't blindly accept what you see because obviously there is more to what meets the eye.
How can I ask an accused suicide bomber questions?

Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Be sincere if you really wanna get to the bottom of this and don't resort to non-muslim sources alone, look at a muslim source also and make a fair and just judgement.
To the bottom of what exactly? I merely posted an article concerning suicide bombings that have occurred in Israel.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Hamas, then, must have a justified reason to attack.
Perhaps they want Israel to attack in order to gain support amongst the Palestinians.

Perhaps Hamas takes orders from Tel Aviv!

We'll never know.
Reply

Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Perhaps they want Israel to attack in order to gain support amongst the Palestinians.
That may be true. Hamas, hezbullah, and even Iran are probably using Israel as an excuse, blaming it for all the problems, while their supporters blindly follow them like sheep.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
12-29-2008, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
How can I ask an accused suicide bomber questions?
People who have lived in the Gaza strip would know the families of such people so ask them. I'm sure there must be Palistinians where you live, in Lebenon (as written on your profile).

To the bottom of what exactly? I merely posted an article concerning suicide bombings that have occurred in Israel.
You posted an article from the BBC and almost all of your arguments you've presented remind of articles which I myself read from the BBC website. BBC are obviously Pro-Israel who will make their allies seem as the innocent ones who are caught in the middle of a war....all of which baised nonsense because you only ever hear a one sided story.

If you want to get to the bottom of Hama's firm resists of Israel even though it's been diminishing ever since then look what Muslims sources have to say about it. Don't blind follow.

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
That may be true. Hamas, hezbullah, and even Iran are probably using Israel as an excuse, blaming it for all the problems, while their supporters blindly follow them like sheep.
You're views without any facts whatsoever.

I'm not here to argue with you because the oppression of Israel is apparent throughout history and at the very least from this latest conflict from videos, photo's and a few unedited videos found on aljazeera.net.

Don't ask Israel what's going on, ask Hamas and the Palistinians. Israel's actions are apparent while Hama's views are almost unheard of, apart from 'We will continue to attack'.

P.S.

Are you really from Lebenon?

Why are your views so Pro-Israel when your life was on the line in 2006 from - GUESS WHO - Israel?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-29-2008, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman
That may be true. Hamas, hezbullah, and even Iran are probably using Israel as an excuse, blaming it for all the problems, while their supporters blindly follow them like sheep.
I've just noticed you're Lebanese.
Whom did you support during the Lebanon war?
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I've just noticed you're Lebanese.
Whom did you support during the Lebanon war?
Well, not fully Lebanese. I was born in the USA, my mother is Lebanese, while my dad is Palestinian, whos granparents, like The Prince's, were kicked out when Israel invaded.

That apart, as I stated in previous posts, I once supported hezbullah (during the war), as well as hamas and even al qaedi. Which I then stopped of course.
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Mr. Sandman
12-29-2008, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Why are your views so Pro-Israel when your life was on the line in 2006 from - GUESS WHO - Israel?
Why do you think my views are pro- Israel just because I am against hamas/hezbullah? My views are pro peace. :)
Reply

TrueStranger
12-29-2008, 11:38 PM
Shouldn't this thread be closed by now:blind:
Reply

Muhammad
12-30-2008, 12:36 AM
:sl: and Greetings,

Sadly, this thread has deteriorated and constructive dialogue has been lost. Emotion sometimes takes the better of us, but we must remember to speak in accordance with the beautiful teachings of Islam and try our best to promote the truth and justice that it calls for.

It is true that many people have a very distorted picture of Islam as a result of what they see and hear from various sources. I would encourage such people to research into the pure system of Islam, and you will find that concepts of bloodshed, unjust killing and terrorism have absolutely no place in such a noble religion.

Terrorism Draws Great Harm Upon the Muslims

The truth is that they harm Islaam and further turn people away from it.
The Muslims reached the point where they almost want to cover their faces in order to avoid being attributed to this terrifying group. Islaam is free from it. Even after Jihaad was ordained, the companions of the Prophet never used to go to non-Muslim societies and kill them, never! There is no Jihaad except under the banner of a ruler who has the ability to carry it out.

As for terrorism, by Allaah it is a deficiency on the part of the Muslims, I swear by Allaah, we never see its benefits, rather it is the opposite, it distorts the reputation of Islaam. But if were to act with wisdom, fear Allaah within our own selves firstly and then try to rectify other people's affairs with legislated methods, the results would be positive.

Al 'Alaamah Muhammad ibn Saaleh al 'Uthaymeen
Fataawa al A-imah: p.55


Terrorism only causes Muslims living in their own countries to be killed as you are now witnessing. This is not from the affairs of Da'wah, nor is it from the affairs of Jihaad. Likewise bombings and causing destruction, this only draws great evil upon the Muslims as is now happening...

Al 'Alaamah Saaleh ibn Fawzaan Al Fawzaan
Fataawa al A-imah: p.65


Question: Is it permissible to hijack planes, blow up buildings and carry out revolts [against the government]? Is this considered to be from the essence of Islaam that one loves to act upon? Benefit us, may Allaah reward you.

Answer: These affairs are from the destruction that Islaam prohibits, and it draws a lot of evil upon the Muslims because the non-Muslims take this as grounds to attack the Muslims and annihilate them. It is these actions that non-Muslims have used as justification to dispraise Islaam as being a religion of terrorism, they say this because of such activities.

Islaam prohibits Bombings, destruction and hijacking planes because it causes harm to the Muslims before it does to other than them, and because it is a form of harm that does not contain any benefit.
http://www.madeenah.com/article.cfm?id=1098

More links denouncing terrorism and suicide bombings:

http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/.../0001027_2.htm
http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/.../0010915_1.htm
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/e...0&%20Terrorism
http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/e...0&%20Terrorism
http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/e...0&%20Terrorism
http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/e...0&%20Terrorism


One thing is certain: Muslims should speak out and stand up against oppression and injustice, but in doing so we should never turn to treachery or indiscriminate slaughter of the innocent.
http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/e...0&%20Terrorism


The only hope for peace and success is by implementing Islamic guidance in all aspects of life, including political affairs. Let us pray that such guidance is sooner implemented rather than later.

The Muslims in Gaza are going through a most terrible trial. Let us also pray for their well-being, safety, strength, patience and protection, and forgiveness and mercy for those that have lost their lives.

Peace.
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