For What Did Jesus Die?

[Wyatt]

This is mainly towards Christians.

If Jesus died for humanity's sins, then how can one go to hell? If one goes to Hell, then what did Jesus do for them?

And what makes his one death equal to all the sinning in the world?

If you believe and are automatically accepted into Heaven, then it doesn't matter whether you do well or badly in life then, right?

If you do believe, but aren't accepted into Heaven because you lived poorly, then what did he die for again? Apparently your sins, so...

I'm confused. :blind: That line that he died for your sins has always confused me since childhood and I was convinced that it was just a pretty phrase that made people feel good. (Though, I'm not saying that that is what it is, but how I felt... so I don't offend anyone. It's because I didn't, and still don't know exactly what it stands for.)

And if you don't believe, but lived life better than another that did believe, who contributed more to God's cause?

[mkh4JC]

This is mainly towards Christians.

If Jesus died for humanity's sins, then how can one go to hell? If one goes to Hell, then what did Jesus do for them?

Well, you have to first accept Christ to begin to benefit from anything that he did on the cross. If you don't accept him then you won't benefit.

And what makes his one death equal to all the sinning in the world?

Because his was the perfect sacrifice. Jesus commited no sin, no, not once. He was sinless. And so God placed all of the world's sins (past, present, and future) on him. Here's a good scripture from the Old Testament:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonment for the soul.' Leviticus 17: 11

So this is God's system, as can be seen from the Old Testament. Blood flow is seen as life. We all live by blood. Jesus shed his life on the cross so that we too might have life. When you accept him, he comes to live within you, granting you power over your lifestyle, and delivering you from all the things that you were bound with, so that you can begin to live a holy, sin free life. So that you can receive a new start.

If you believe and are automatically accepted into Heaven, then it doesn't matter whether you do well or badly in life then, right?

If you do believe, but aren't accepted into Heaven because you lived poorly, then what did he die for again? Apparently your sins, so...

Well, if you sin as a Christian (and I can very much attest to this), then almighty God will respond to that sin. It's called chastening:

'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

...

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-9, 11

I'm confused. :blind: That line that he died for your sins has always confused me since childhood and I was convinced that it was just a pretty phrase that made people feel good. (Though, I'm not saying that that is what it is, but how I felt... so I don't offend anyone. It's because I didn't, and still don't know exactly what it stands for.)

And if you don't believe, but lived life better than another that did believe, who contributed more to God's cause?

Well, it just means that he died in your place. He took the penalty of sin, yours, mine, and everyone elses. The wages of sin is death (ie spiritual death). Separation from God. God will not tolerate a sinner in his presence, because he is holy and there is no darkness in him. So if you die in your sins then you will be separated from God. So God sent Christ into the world to be a remedy for sin. Christ is the bridge between sinful man and a holy God.

[YusufNoor]

Well, you have to first accept Christ to begin to benefit from anything that he did on the cross. If you don't accept him then you won't benefit.

if Jesus died for humanities sin, and according to you and some other Christians NOT accepting that Jesus is god and that he died/killed himself for our sins IS a sin, why isn't that one of the sins that he died for?

Because his was the perfect sacrifice. Jesus commited no sin, no, not once. He was sinless. And so God placed all of the world's sins (past, present, and future) on him. Here's a good scripture from the Old Testament:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonment for the soul.'

So this is God's system, as can be seen from the Old Testament. Blood flow is seen as life. We all live by blood. Jesus shed his life on the cross so that we too might have life. When you accept him, he comes to live within you, granting you power over your lifestyle, and delivering you from all the things that you were bound with, so that you can begin to live a holy, sin free life. So that you can receive a new start.



Well, if you sin as a Christian (and I can very much attest to this), then almighty God will respond to that sin. It's called chastening:

'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

...

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-10, 11




Well, it just means that he died in your place. He took the penalty of sin, yours, mine, and everyone elses. The wages of sin is death (ie spiritual death). Separation from God. God will not tolerate a sinner in his presence, because he is holy and there is no darkness in him. So if you die in your sins then you will be separated from God. So God sent Christ into the world to be a remedy for sin. Christ is the bridge between sinful man and a holy God.

aren't there passages from your bible that conflict with this? consider Job:

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

it appears that NOT only was Satan in HIS Presence, but they had a little chat!

are you going to stick with your statement?

:w:

[mkh4JC]

if Jesus died for humanities sin, and according to you and some other Christians NOT accepting that Jesus is god and that he died/killed himself for our sins IS a sin, why isn't that one of the sins that he died for?

Unbelief in the Christian sense IS a sin. And sometimes Christians have times of unbelief or doubt. So those kinds of instances would be covered, as Jesus died for that. But once you leave this physical world into eternity then your fate is sealed. God is not going to force anyone to live with him if they don't want him. That's why we aren't robots. He respects our free will.

aren't there passages from your bible that conflict with this? consider Job:



it appears that NOT only was Satan in HIS Presence, but they had a little chat!

are you going to stick with your statement?

:w:

Well, the Bible says that the devil roams all and about through the second heaven (the universe). He was kicked out of heaven. So him 'being in God's presence' at the time of Job could have just been an instance where God manifested himself in the Earth and the devil appeared before him. There were many times in the Old Testament for instance where people had conversations with God. Cain for instance spoke with God after murdering Abel.

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[glo]

Hi Podarok

I like your question. :)

This is mainly towards Christians.

If Jesus died for humanity's sins, then how can one go to hell? If one goes to Hell, then what did Jesus do for them?

And what makes his one death equal to all the sinning in the world?

Fedos has already explained the Christian understanding of atonement.

We believe that by his death Jesus overcame all sin - sin, which is inherent to our human nature, and which causes a separation between God and humans.
By his death Jesus enabled us to be in relationship with God yet again (as - according to the story of the garden of Eden - he once did) - without having to resort to cleansing rituals and animal sacrifices (as was the case before Jesus' death)

Now, that doesn't of course mean that we have stopped sinning.
I sin every day of my life!!

If you believe and are automatically accepted into Heaven, then it doesn't matter whether you do well or badly in life then, right?

Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".
Sometimes I wonder what exactly he meant by that.
Different Christians may have different thoughts on this - but there clearly is a concept here of 'recognising and acknowledging Jesus as who he is' and 'being willing to follow his teachings'. Those are the things which allow us entry into the kingdom of Heaven.
It also means, that 'only though Jesus' can we reach God. No other means alone will do - not even leading a 'good' life, not even 'being better' that some believers may be ...

By dying for us, Jesus gave us a choice: to choose to follow him or not.

With regards to our understanding of heaven or hell, simply put Heaven is the place where God is, Hell is the place where God isn't.
Hence, if someone doesn't believe in God, doesn't love him, doesn't desire to serve him, then hell is the right place for him/her. (I have spoken to atheists who argue that indeed they would wish to be in that place where God is absent!)

With regards to committing sin, I do believe it does matter whether we try to abstain from sin or not.
The Bible gives clear references to people being judged for their actions on the day of judgement.

Like I said before, I sin every day of my life. Most of the time I try to repent and ask forgiveness (which I believe God grants me)
But there will be other sins, which perhaps I haven't repented of, or which perhaps I have committed unknowingly. For those I will have to give account to God one day.
I trust that God - being loving and gracious and just - will deal with me according to his nature.

I'm confused. :blind: That line that he died for your sins has always confused me since childhood and I was convinced that it was just a pretty phrase that made people feel good. (Though, I'm not saying that that is what it is, but how I felt... so I don't offend anyone. It's because I didn't, and still don't know exactly what it stands for.)

Don't worry about it. It's good to ask questions! :)
When I was younger I thought just like you do.

I don't know if my ramblings have helped you at all. :)

Peace

[Grace Seeker]

For what did Jesus die? For my sins, to bring me back to God.

The turning point in my life was when I came to the conviction that even if I was the only person on earth who needed it, that Jesus' love was so great that he would have gone to the cross and died just for me in order that I might re-establish the relationship with God that was broken because of my sin.

[Follower]

For me, my family, friends and you.

GOD is righteous and just. When a sin is committed a payment, must be paid. A punishemnt served- sent away from GOD, hell. Our deeds can never erase the sins we commit. GOD loves us and wants us to be with Him, heaven but we are not holy enough, through Jesus we can be with GOD in heaven.

[mrsonic]

God, in His infinite wisdom, created us with the capacity to sin and knowing
full well that we would sin He created no mechanism through which we could
free ourselves of that sin. Forgiveness is apparently impossible and God has
to send everyone to hell to burn forever because we are all sinners. What a
dilemma. God loves us everyone so whatever is He to do to rectify the
situation? Perhaps He has a Son, who is Himself, to send to earth. There God
would be delivered as a baby, presumably have his diaper changed until he
was old enough to be potty trained and then when he grew up He would wander around for a couple of decades or so before delivering a few sermons and then have Himself killed. He had to have Himself killed to wash away the sin of those who are just dim-witted enough to accept such a ludicrous scheme. Being God, He didn't actually die but those who accept His "death and sacrifice" are ushered into His good graces and blessed with the Holy Spirit though it seems to do them no good at all and they go on sinning the same as before. However, those sins are not held against them since they believe God killed Himself for their sake. Its enough to make one want to praise Jesus

and weep tears of joy, is it not?


What does Islam say? Man must strive towards God but we know that though man may reach upwards it will only be to stumble back because Man is weak and: "Surely the soul is prone to enjoin evil..." [Quran 12:53]

When a person with a conscience sins he will feel guilty and be repentant.
All of us are, to varying degrees, disgusted or disheartened by our own
behavior and are repentant. A person can not achieve "goodness" on his own
and, as the Christian is so fond of pointing out, it is only through the
grace of God that man overcomes sin. A person who strives towards God and
keeps failing will obviously be repentant and suffer due to his weakness
which keeps him from his goal. A person may repent, time and time again and
may even despair of improvement. The cumulative effect of a persons striving and failing and feeling the pangs of conscience is that God takes mercy on such a person and strengthens him with the "Holy Spirit" to lift him above his weakness.


"As for such, He has written faith upon their hearts and has strengthened
them with a Spirit from Him, and He will bring them into Gardens underneath
which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them,
and they are well pleased with Him." [Quran 58:22]


The question should be, how do we receive this gift from God? What path or
actions should we undertake so that we may have faith inscribed in our
hearts? Certainly God would tell us how we may reach this stage? What path
should we travel? The straight path is that we should be wholly devoted to
God and engage all of our faculties in 'ibadat'(worship). For the Muslim
that path is outlined and detailed by the religion of Islam.

"Show us the straight path, The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace," [Quran 1:7]

[mrsonic]

one thing i don't understand is that why the almighty had no other option but to jump into a human meat puppet disguise and then enjoy the pain and suffering like many sado machonists do.why did the almighty not reveal his true self ? what is great about hiding behind a disguise? many hindu and greek gods wore " fleshly disguises" for thier causes. god has many "prophecies" narrated to his prophets,but his mother mary defied him by sacrificing 2 turtle doves. didn't the man god inform her about his big sacrifice before he over shadowed her?

[mrsonic]

The turning point in my life was when I came to the conviction that even if I was the only person on earth who needed it, that Jesus' love was so great that he would have gone to the cross and died just for me in order that I might re-establish the relationship with God that was broken because of my sin.

there are martyrs who go to thier deaths without making a "gospel" out of thier deaths, they make their sacrifice unknown.they are greater than your god.jesus was saved with the blood of the children of Bethlehem according to the bible.

[mkh4JC]

God, in His infinite wisdom, created us with the capacity to sin and knowing
full well that we would sin He created no mechanism through which we could
free ourselves of that sin.

This is not the case. Through Christ we can be free from all unrighteousness.

Forgiveness is apparently impossible and God has
to send everyone to hell to burn forever because we are all sinners. What a
dilemma.

Yes this is true. We are all born in sin and have sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, he gives you a new nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature, and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it.

God loves us everyone so whatever is He to do to rectify the situation? Perhaps He has a Son, who is Himself, to send to earth. There God would be delivered as a baby, presumably have his diaper changed until he was old enough to be potty trained and then when he grew up He would wander around for a couple of decades or so before delivering a few sermons and then have Himself killed. He had to have Himself killed to wash away the sin of those who are just dim-witted enough to accept such a ludicrous scheme. Being God, He didn't actually die but those who accept His "death and sacrifice" are ushered into His good graces and blessed with the Holy Spirit though it seems to do them no good at all and they go on sinning the same as before. However, those sins are not held against them since they believe God killed Himself for their sake.Its enough to make one want to praise Jesus

and weep tears of joy, is it not?

Well, it takes divine intervention for one to come to know Christ. I can quote you scriptures all day long but as Jesus said, if the Father who sent him doesn't draw you then you will remain in your sins. And it may seem like believing that God has a Son is foolishness. Or that he being God would sacrifice himself to reconcile sinful man back to himself. But it only seems that way. Here's a good couple of scriptures:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given unto us.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' I Corinthians 2: 12-14.

Let me also address this:

though it seems to do them no good at all and they go on sinning the same as before.

Perhaps you've been in contact with the wrong "Christians."

'Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whomsoever committeth sin is the servant of sin (ie not the servant of God).

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.' John 8: 34-36. This is talking about freedom from sin, no matter what your background is.

'Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' II Corinthians 5: 17. This is not just referencing your mindset, but your lifestyle, you completely throwing off the sinful man and putting on the righteousness of God. It also references the new birth.

Here's two more verses:

'What shall we say then? Shall we contine in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?' Romans 6: 1-2.

Or here:

'All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not, but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.' 1 John 5: 17-20.

When the Bible says that Jesus died to take away the sins of the world, that's exactly what it means. It doesn't just mean that he died in all of our places, it means that he came to enable us to live victorious lives, no matter what kind of past we may have. Which is why I can say with great certainty that Christianity then is the cure for sin nature, while everything else just masks it.

[Grace Seeker]

jesus was saved with the blood of the children of Bethlehem according to the bible.

Why do you say this? If you are referring to Herod's killing of the children, that act didn't save Jesus. It is true that Jesus was saved from this event, that doesn't mean the event saved him. God didn't order it for the purpose of saving Jesus, it was simply the act of a megalomaniac.

one thing i don't understand is that why the almighty had no other option but to jump into a human meat puppet disguise and then enjoy the pain and suffering like many sado machonists do.why did the almighty not reveal his true self ? what is great about hiding behind a disguise? many hindu and greek gods wore " fleshly disguises" for thier causes. god has many "prophecies" narrated to his prophets,but his mother mary defied him by sacrificing 2 turtle doves. didn't the man god inform her about his big sacrifice before he over shadowed her?

I don't see it as God "hiding behind a disguise." First off, he revealed who he was to those who had "eyes to see and ears to hear." But let me address your question and the OP's question with a true story:

A wildfire was being whipped up a box canyon by strong winds. The inferno advanced quickly, consuming everything in its path. One family, seeing the impossibility of outrunning the blaze, nor driving out through it, left their home. In a nearby meadow, they lit a backfire that quickly consumed several acres of dry grass. With time running out, they lay down in the midst of the freshly burned area and covered themselves with earth. Almost immediately, the roaring fire met the backfire and it burned right up to the edge of the smoking meadow. Then the blaze went right around this burned-out area, continuing its hungry race.

Everything around them was destroyed, but that family was saved. How? They understood that the only safe place would be where fire had already burned, and they ran to that place in simple trust.

Similarly, people must realize that the fire of God's holy wrath, which burns against sin, has already touched down on the one who, as the Lamb of God, took the world's sin upon himself. God's wrath touched down in one particular point in human history. And when it did, it completely consumed the man Jesus on the Cross. It did not consume everything, but it did finalize God's work of judgment. The result is that when the final judgment comes in the sifting of the entire world, that those who take refuge in shadow of the Cross will find it a safe haven, for the wrath of God has already come against all the sin that was taken nail to that cross. And it is now a place of refuge.

Sadly, some people have instead taken these things back and claimed them as their own again. They are either trying to run outrun God, deny his reality, or think that they are safe in the houses they have constructed for themselves. But they are wrong. The only safety is to live within the shadow of the cross. In other words, to trust in the work of Christ. And that is why Jesus had to die, because on our own none of us are good enough for a holy God, and he will destroy us in the process of destorying the sin we attach ourselves to.

[Zamtsa]

An Nisa (4):153 The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle) for they said: "Show us Allah in public" but they were dazed for their presumption with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so We forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority. 657
154 And for their Covenant We raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) We said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) We commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath." And We took from them a solemn Covenant. 658
155 (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant: that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)"; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy and little is it they believe. 659 660 661
156 That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. 662
157 That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. 663
158 Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. 664
159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them. 665 666
160 For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them; in that they hindered many from Allah's way. 667
161 That they took usury (interest) though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully; We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge and the believers believe in what hath been revealed to thee; and (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practice regular charity and believe in Allah and in the Last Day: to them shall We soon give a great reward.


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace, development and safe from guile be upon who follow the guidance).

[Grace Seeker]

An Nisa (4):157 That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.

How does the above respond to the original post:

This is mainly towards Christians.

If Jesus died....

[Pygoscelis]

There is a bit of a problem with the idea of sacrifice for forgiveness of future sin. It leads to some rather peculiar conclusions.,,,

If Jesus died for my sins, I'd better commit them. I'd hate for Jesus to have died for nothing. And the more I sin the more Jesus' sacrifice is worth. So sinning brings glory to the lord.

[Follower]

The Jews are saying this in a boast, when in reality we know that GOD had complete control over the whole situation. Muslims have mis-interpreted this verse since it was written. I am thinking it was written so the Jews would not be condemned and hated for killing Jesus when it is because of all of us that Jesus was sacrificed.

662
157 That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. 663
158 Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise.

[Follower]

Pygoscelis show me one person that has not sinned!

So do your knees bend backwards?

[Grace Seeker]

There is a bit of a problem with the idea of sacrifice for forgiveness of future sin. It leads to some rather peculiar conclusions.,,,

If Jesus died for my sins, I'd better commit them. I'd hate for Jesus to have died for nothing. And the more I sin the more Jesus' sacrifice is worth. So sinning brings glory to the lord.

That's the sort of thinking I employed with my brother when we were both younger. Whenever there was a conflict my parents were of the opinion that I, being older, should know how to avoid it and therefore it was my responsiblity. My brother, being no dummy, used this to his advantage for sometime and would fake that I was doing something to him in order that I would get in trouble and he could get his way. But I had the last laugh, realizing that I was going to get in trouble no matter what, I just decided that I could and should routinely beat up my brother with impunity, because, after all, if I was going to get in trouble for it, I might as well have actually committed the crime I was going to be punished for.

Of course, we were both still a juveniles when we behaved that way, are you?

[THE END]

So if you accept jesus than you are guranteed heaven, even if you SIN, is this what christianity teaches?

[Grace Seeker]

So if you accept jesus than you are guranteed heaven, even if you SIN, is this what christianity teaches?

Not quite. It teaches that no matter what sins you have in your past, that they can all be forgiven. Forgiven people are just that, forgiven. Their sins are no longer held against them, and thus as people who are then viewed as sinless, they can of course be accepted into heaven.

But Christianity does not teach that accepting Jesus automatically grants you a license to continue to sin. Indeed, the scriptures are rather clear that what is expected of those who are in Christ, is that they live a holy and sinless life.

Now the reality is, that even those who come to Christ often have trouble making the 180 degree turn necessary to live a sinless life. This is where the misunderstanding that one can sin and go to heaven comes from. Because if one is in Christ and desires to live in accordance with God's will, but still stumbles not out of willful disobedience, but because one is still learning and growing in righteousness, then there is still the promise of forgiveness. But for those who having accepted the gift of Christ's forgiveness of sin and regeneration with the gift of a new life, if they then turn their backs on God and intentionally walk away from this gift of new life, then they have to expect to pay the consequences of their sin. Should they remain apostate, they would be doomed to hellfire as much as any one else. Or they can realized their sinfulness and repent of it -- where repentance means a change of direction in one's life, it is more than just saying I am sorry. I have every reasons to believe such repentance, when genuine, is accepted by God and restores the individual to a healthy relationship with God. Those who merely repent in words but not in their heart are perhaps fooling their neighbors and most certainly themselves, but God is not fooled. They will be judged accordingly.

[Whatsthepoint]

I think this is a good place to ask this.
Do Muslims believe Jews demanded Jesus to be killed? If so, what reason was he killed for? According to your religion, he preached Islam, which is very similar to Judaism, so I don't really see a reason why Jews would want him dead. Is there an explanation in Islamic texts about the reason as to why Jesus was crucified? (well not actually crucified, but convicted)

[Oleander]

Fedos>>>Because his was the perfect sacrifice. Jesus commited no sin, no, not once. He was sinless. And so God placed all of the world's sins (past, present, and future) on him.


>>>What's happen to all the verses which say: Everyone will be judge according to his own deeds?


Fedos>>>Here's a good scripture from the Old Testament:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonment for the soul.' Leviticus 17: 11


>>>The blood of animal or the man?


Can you tell us what kind of blood was used to wash the sin of a killer?

[mkh4JC]

Fedos>>>Because his was the perfect sacrifice. Jesus commited no sin, no, not once. He was sinless. And so God placed all of the world's sins (past, present, and future) on him.


>>>What's happen to all the verses which say: Everyone will be judge according to his own deeds?

I think you are referring to this:

'Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile.' Romans 2: 6-9.

This is not talking about a deeds based salvation, but a salvation wherein we are free from the bondage of sin. It doesn't say those who do good deeds will inherit the kingdom, it says those who live righteous before God.

Fedos>>>Here's a good scripture from the Old Testament:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonment for the soul.' Leviticus 17: 11


>>>The blood of animal or the man?


Can you tell us what kind of blood was used to wash the sin of a killer?

Well, the blood of Christ. But the Old Testament is a percursor to the New, or a foreshadowing of the New. The writer of Hebrews tells us that it is not possible that the blood of goats and bulls should take away sins. He also says this:

'For if the blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth (set you apart) to the purifying of the flesh:

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?' Hebrews 9: 13.

In terms of your last question, Christ can redeem anyone. The Bible calls things like murder sin unto death though. There is a sin unto death, and a sin not unto death (like theft). But just because you kill someone that doesn't mean that you are eternally condemned. You still have an opportunity to know Christ. Consider the mercy that Cain professed God showed him after he murdered Abel for instance.

[Imam]

I think this is a good place to ask this.
Do Muslims believe Jews demanded Jesus to be killed? If so, what reason was he killed for? According to your religion, he preached Islam, which is very similar to Judaism, so I don't really see a reason why Jews would want him dead. Is there an explanation in Islamic texts about the reason as to why Jesus was crucified? (well not actually crucified, but convicted)

Greetings;

What did Jesus ,according to Islam,came for?

[043:063] When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear God and obey me.

[003:050] "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.


Their reaction

[061:014] O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples, "We are God's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved

[002:087] We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

Then the cure for imposters,killing !

[005:110]And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from violence to thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.

and that is not only a Quranic claim ,it is supported by the Jewish source:

The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others—(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the life of Jesus ("Toledot Yeshu'") that originated in the Middle Ages. It is the tendency of all these sources to be-little the person of Jesus by ascribing to him (1) illegitimate birth, (2) magic, and (3) a shameful
death. (from JewishEncyclopedia)

their attitude is expressed for the first time in the "Acts of Pilate" ("Gospel of
Nicodemus," ed. Thilo, in "Codex Apoc. Novi Testamenti," i. 526, Leipsic, 1832; comp.
Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28). Celsus makes the same statement in another passage, where he refers even to a written source (ἀναγέγραπται), adding that the seducer was a soldier by the name of Panthera (l.c. i. 32). The name "Panthera" occurs here for the first time; two centuries later it occurs in Epiphanius ("Hæres." lxxviii. 7), who ascribes the surname "Panther" to Jacob, an ancestor of Jesus; and John of Damascus ("De Orthod. Fide." iv., § 15) includes the names "Panther" and "Barpanther" in the genealogy of Mary. It is certain, in any case, that the rabbinical sources also regard
Jesus as the "son of Pandera"

It appears from this passage that, aside from Pandera and Sṭada, the couple Pappus b. Judah and Miriam the hairdresser were taken to be the parents of Jesus. Pappus has nothing to do with the story of Jesus, and was only connected with it because his wife happened to be called "Miriam" (= "Mary"), and was known to be an adulteress.

All the "Toledot" editions contain a similar story of a dispute which Jesus carried on with the Scribes, who, on the ground of that dispute, declared him to be a bastar?.....

Jesus as Magician.

According to Celsus (in Origen, "Contra Celsum," i. 28) and to the Talmud (Shab. 104b), Jesus learned magic in Egypt and performed his miracles by means of it; the latter work, in addition, states that he cut the magic formulas into his skin. (Tosef., Shab. xi. 4; Yer. Shab. 13d);
The accusation of magic is frequently brought against Jesus. Jerome mentions it, quoting the Jews: "Magum vocant et Judæi Dominum meum" ("Ep. lv., ad Ascellam," i. 196, ed. Vallarsi); Marcus, of the sect of the Valentinians, was, according to Jerome, a native of Egypt, and was accused of being, like Jesus, a magician (Hilgenfeld,
"Ketzergesch." p. 370, Leipsic, 1884). There were even Christian heretics who looked upon the founder of their religion as a magician (Fabricius, in "Codex Apocr. Novi Testamenti," iii. 396),

The third Legend

The scholars of Israel took Jesus into the synagogue of Tiberias and bound him to a pillar; when his followers came to liberate him, a battle occurred in which the Jewish party was worsted and his disciples took him to Antiochia. On the eve of Passover he entered Jerusalem riding on an ass (comp. Matt. xxi. 4-17), disguised—according to several editions—so that his former disciple Judas had to betray him in order to secure his seizure. He was executed on the eve of the Passover festival, which was also the eve of the Sabbath. The executioners were not able to hang him upon a tree, for he had conjured all trees, by means of the name of God, not to receive him, and therefore they all broke; he was finally received by a large cabbagestalk (comp. Targ. Sheni to Esth. vii. 9).

the halakic assertion that Balaam (i.e., the prototype of Jesus) had no part in the future life must also be especially noted (Sanh. x. 2). It is further said: "The pupils of the recreant Balaam”refers to Jesus” inherit hell" (Abot v. 19).

The Jewish (Jesus been crucified) legend ,goes on and tells:

Jesus is accordingly, in the following curious Talmudic legend, thought
to sojourn in hell. A certain Onḳelos b. Ḳaloniḳos, son of Titus' sister, desired to embrace Judaism, and called up from hell by magic first Titus, then Balaam, and finally Jesus, who are here taken together as the worst enemies of Judaism. He asked Jesus: "Who is esteemed in that world?" Jesus said: "Israel." "Shall one join them?" Jesus said to him: "Further their well-being; do nothing to their detriment; whoever touches them touches even the apple of His eye." Onḳelos then asked the nature of his punishment, and was told that it was the degrading fate of those who mock the wise (Giṭ. 56b-57a). This most revolting passage was applied in the Middle Ages to another Jesus (e.g., by R. Jeḥiel, in the Paris disputation; "Wikkuaḥ," p. 4, Thorn, 1873).

the Encyclopedia goes on and tells the following (pay attention)

(Neither this accusation nor that concerning the birth of Jesus is found in the
canonical Gospels, but it occurs in the apocryphal accounts)
And it is clear why such facts are absent from the canonical Gospels as they want to make their readers understand that they wanted to kill him for claiming deity..

peace

[Grace Seeker]

This is mainly towards Christians.

If Jesus died for humanity's sins, then how can one go to hell? If one goes to Hell, then what did Jesus do for them?

Well, Podarok, as you can see threads sometimes take unexpected turns. My question is did you get your question(s) sufficiently addressed, or do you want more response from Christians?

[Hafswa]

Greetings;

What did Jesus ,according to Islam,came for?

[043:063] When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear God and obey me.

Does the Q'uran give the details of the points that Jesus came to make clear?

[جوري]

the purpose of Jesus.. first as is in the bible

International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

http://bible.cc/matthew/15-24.htm

obviously, the lost sheep didn't care for him, and the gentiles made him into the man/God.. his purpose according to Islam:


The message of Jesus was basically the same as the message of other prophets of God. He was sent to invite people to the worship of One God, to do the righteous deed and be kind and loving to others. He reminded his people to pay attention not only to the letter of the laws but also to the spirit of the laws.
The Qur’an says that Jesus was mistreated, denied and rejected by his people just as other prophets were also mistreated. Some of his contemporaries opposed him and tried to crucify him. It is also reported in the Christian Bible that Jesus prayed to God to save him from his enemies and remove the “cup of death” from him. (“If thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” Mark 14:36 and Luke 22:42) God accepted Jesus’ prayer and saved him from crucifixion or death on the cross. He was lifted up to heaven (An-Nisaa’: 157-158). Jesus is yet to fulfill his Messianic role. Muslims believe that Jesus will come back to earth before the end of time and will restore peace and order, struggle against the Anti-Christ (Dajjal) or demonic forces, and bring victory for truth and righteousness. The true followers of Jesus will prevail over those who deny him, misrepresent him and reject him.
http://islamicscholars.newsvine.com/...slamonlinenet-

all the best..

P.S: I never thought I'd admit to this, but how true and hilarious is pygo's comment.. since Jesus came to eat my sins, I should have a carte Blanche to sin sin sin =)
counter intuitive no?

[Hafswa]

So if you accept jesus than you are guranteed heaven, even if you SIN, is this what christianity teaches?

Though this question zeros in on the death of Christ, it can be applied to every religion.
Does only your faith and believe attone you from sin and send you to heaven?
Isn't there something that you the individual needs to do so as to receive this favor of getting to reign with God in heaven ?

For Christians it is believing in Christ, His death and Resurrection, living according to the Word and living you life as an example to others, that Christ is reflected in everythig you do, think, say act. Naturaly( our flesh) will always come in the way after all we do have free will to choose to follow what God expects of us or to enjoy the pleasures of the earth. When we do choose to sin, that is not the end, we do have the option to 1. realise that what you did is not acceptable in the sight of God, 2. Repent for this sin and seek forgiveness 3. Strive not to give in to the flesh and its desires after that which is not easy but you , you, you have to decide to live right.

So to answer your question, Christianity does not gurantee entry into heaven even though you sin, you still have to make it right with God just on the same way you have to make it right with a friend or spouce when you wrong them.

The Bible also does say that:

Matthew
{7:21} Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will
of my Father which is in heaven. {7:22} Many will say to
me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy
name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works? {7:23} And then will I
profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.

You have to KNOW Christ!

[alcurad]

but then again, wasn't it God the one who made man's nature sinful-according to christian doctrine-?
so couldn't he forgive without resort to sacrifice?

[doorster]

....

you could have added: "according to" then I would get less confused

[Imam]

Does the Q'uran give the details of the points that Jesus came to make clear?

No it doesn't

why?

cause The Quran is not a gospel,It shares the basic message of the true gospel though..

[Hafswa]

No it doesn't

why?

cause The Quran is not a gospel,It shares the basic message of the true gospel though..

I was not phrasing the Q'uran as a Gospel but instead hoped it would give an elaboration of His purpose on earth as a prophet according to your faith.

[Imam]

I was not phrasing the Q'uran as a Gospel .

If the Quran purpose is to give the details of the gospel of Jesus ,we would rather call it not the Holy Quran but the Holy Gospel....

but instead hoped it would give an elaboration of His purpose on earth as a prophet according to your faith .

And what if it contains all the details of such past issue,what difference would make it for you?
would you believe such Quranic details to be true?

[Hafswa]

If the Quran purpose is to give the details of the gospel of Jesus ,we would rather call it not the Holy Quran but the Holy Gospel....



And what if it contains all the details of such past issue,what difference would make it for you?
would you believe such Quranic details to be true?

For knowledge only.

[Grace Seeker]

but then again, wasn't it God the one who made man's nature sinful-according to christian doctrine-?
so couldn't he forgive without resort to sacrifice?

I know you not to be one who speaks without an actual reason, but I can't think of what it is that you are refering to. What leads you to suggest that (according to Christian doctrine) God made man's nature sinful?

[doorster]

I know you not to be one who speaks without an actual reason, but I can't think of what it is that you are refering to. What leads you to suggest that (according to Christian doctrine) God made man's nature sinful?

greetings

I do not know about others but for me the following quote does it

All Men are Sinners
When God demanded obedience, Adam acted on behalf of all men. Alas, he was disobedient, and judgment came upon all of us. We call this original sin. This means that Adam's sin is imputed to us. But also that through his fall, we inherit a sinful nature. In Adam we all did sin. Man listened to the devil, who urged us to transgress God's Law. But at the same time we ourselves became wilfully, that is with malicious intent, disobedient to God's Law. It is our own fault that we cannot do any more what God requires from us.

click here >> for more <<

Salam

[alcurad]

^thnx brother doorster,
and yes, that is the basis for my assumption, since Adam sinned, it was in his nature to sin, our inheriting his sin compounds this.
isn't it that even those accepting Christ as savior sin, regardless of degree of sin. then sin is in our nature which God created,,

[Grace Seeker]

^thnx brother doorster,
and yes, that is the basis for my assumption, since Adam sinned, it was in his nature to sin, our inheriting his sin compounds this.
isn't it that even those accepting Christ as savior sin, regardless of degree of sin. then sin is in our nature which God created,,

OK. I got you. But you originally said,

wasn't it God the one who made man's nature sinful

And the answer to that is NO.

God made us. Thus he made our nature. And that nature had free will. But God did not make man's nature sinful. As he made it, the Bible declares, we were created in his image. And since God is altogether holy and righteous in every aspect of his being, there is no way that man was created with a sinful nature.

Note: some people mistakenly think that when Christians talk about people being made in God's image that we are talking about some sort of physical representation. We are not, we are talking about a moral representaion. So people, as we were created by God, were in fact originally sinless just as God is sinless.

Now, if you are talking about our nature today; today we are sinful. This, however, is not a product of God's creating of us with a sinful nature, but rather of what Christians call the Fall. We chose to be sinful. I think even Islam would agree with Christianity on this point, that there are no sinless people in the world today. We all fail, at some level, to submit ourselves to the will of God. This is not something that God created, but it is something that God allows for -- just as much in Islamic thought as in Christian theology.

So, let me say again. Yes, we are sinful. I would go so far as to say that we have a sinful nature (I know that Islam thinks we are all born sinless and then choose to sin.) which makes it impossible to find God on our own. But the sin that is in our lives is not a result of having been created this way by God, for God created us without sin. It is there because we chose sin. The Muslim thinks that each person chooses this for him/her self in this life. The Christian affirms that Adam chose sin over following after God and that this then corrupted the image of God that he had been created in, and since he did so BEFORE having any children, that he passed on this corrupted self to all of his offspring. It is sort of like Adam's sin changed our spiritual DNA, but God is not the reason for this corruption, rather mankind has only itself to blame.

[ninetrey]

assalamu alaikum

first i wanna say that jesus didnt die at all it was acually judas that died on the cross (it wasnt even acually a cross it was acually a tree or something else)!

jesus (also called isa ibn marjam thats what he called himself) ascended towards heaven (jennah) alive thats all in the quran!

so its again prooven that the bible was getting faked up by the **** accursed
monkey devil iblis and his children so **** the bible like it is now its all about the
quran!!

[Grace Seeker]

assalamu alaikum

first i wanna say that jesus didnt die at all it was acually judas that died on the cross (it wasnt even acually a cross it was acually a tree or something else)!

I believe that you are mistakenly accepting folk religion as if it were equal to the teachings of the Qur'an. Please give chapter and verse where this is found in the Qur'an.

[Woodrow]

I believe that you are mistakenly accepting folk religion as if it were equal to the teachings of the Qur'an. Please give chapter and verse where this is found in the Qur'an.

While there is strong circumstantial evidence that Judas was the one crucified in Isa(as)'s place. we are not told so in the Qur'an. No where in the Qur'an can I find any name mentioned of who it was.

Hopefully those who are teaching such, are acknowledging that the belief it was Judas, is not based on the Qur'an. We have no verification that is true. Only word of mouth opinion.

Personally I hope it was Judas, but I can not prove it was and it is not a teaching of the Qur'an.

[Banu_Hashim]

I was not phrasing the Q'uran as a Gospel but instead hoped it would give an elaboration of His purpose on earth as a prophet according to your faith.

In Islam, all the prophets came with the same basic message which is "Tawhid". This is the concept of monotheism and the oneness of God.

[Imam]

Greetings,Bro Woodrow
I hope you are doing fine ....and May Allah bless you for your efforts and your time ...

I have some comments

While there is strong circumstantial evidence that Judas was the one crucified in Isa(as)'s place.

As a matter of fact I used to accept the substitution issue till not so long years ago ..... due to not reading,analyzing the verse well but mere the common interpreatations..

my doubt of such interpreatation started while reading the great Quranic commentary (tafseer alrazi) ..... there the issue was highlighted properly ....... and the linguestic analysis refuted the (substitution concept)

That they said , "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them , and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not
[Qur'an 4:157


the pronoun has to be (It) or (He) ?

from (Tafseer alkashaf)
فإن قلت: { شُبّهَ } مسند إلى ماذا* ? * ؟ إن جعلته مسنداً إلى المسيح، فالمسيح مشبه به وليس بمشبه، وإن أسندته إلى المقتول فالمقتول لم يجر له ذكر قلت: هو مسند إلى الجار والمجرور وهو { لهم } كقولك خيل إليه، كأنه قيل: ولكن وقع لهم التشبيه.

English:
If we say (He was substituted) then what (He) refers to?

if it refers to Jesus ,it can't be as the interpretation claims that God substituted for Jesus a person ....

and if (he) refers to a person ,so we have to find his name before the pronoun....

if we put the pronoun he(jesus) then the meaning will be that (Jesus) appeared in another shape(another face and body) for the jews !!
and that exactly the opposite of the substitution interpreatation!! ......
the meaning makes sense if only we use (it was appeared to them so)

No where in the Qur'an can I find any name mentioned of who it was..

Exactly...

The Message of The Quran by Muhammad Asad
http://geocities.com/masad02/

The Qur’an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist, among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas), who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur’an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur’anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur’anic phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" - implying that in the course of time, long after the time of Jesus, a legend had somehow grown up (possibly under the then-powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs) to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the "original sin" with which mankind is allegedly burdened This, to my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus, art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500).

Personally I hope it was Judas.

( and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not)
[Qur'an 4:157


If the person been crucified was Juda (and had the exact physical appearance of Jesus) then logically,there was nothing of (doubts,no certain knowledge,conjecture).....

If I witnessed with my naked eyes the crucifiction of someone with the exact appearance(face and body) of Jesus, why would I follow conjecture, and feel doubts ?!!!
I think the only reasonable meaning to the verse is that they followed a false hearsay propagated not by eyewitnesses ,that Jesus was crucified.....

no wonder to find such hearsays in the east regarding important persons,especially when such persons disappear from the scene...


Peace and bless

[Follower]

4:157
And their saying: "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, God's messenger, and they have not killed him, and they have not crucified him/placed him on a cross, and but (it) resembled/was vague/was doubtful to them, and that those who disagreed/disputed in (about) him (are) in (E) doubt/suspicion from him, (there is) no knowledge for them with (about) him, except following the assumption , and they have not killed him surely/certainly.

You have to look at what was going on and has been going on it is strictly about who is to blame. Christians have blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus since the day it happened.

The Quran corrects this by saying
4:158
But God rose him (Jesus) to Him, and God was/is glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.

It was GOD's plan:

From an earlier chapter we know that the Jews were
3:54
And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers.

What every Muslims forgets:
10:94
So if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.

You must read the accounts mentioned in the Gospels.

Think on this:

if Jesus had allowed someone to go through all the pain and suffering associated with the crucifixion in His place.

What could we say of His character as a man, prophet of GOD?

[Follower]

http://www.introducingjesus.org/inj005manmyth.htm

I had never heard of the following until today:

LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA (c. 120-180 AD) who lived in the second century was scornful of Christ but described how he "introduce this new cult into the world" and was "crucified in Palestine" because of it. So even those who opposed Christianity accepted the reality of Jesus and some basic facts about his life and death.

MARA BAR-SERAPION, around AD 73, wrote to his son a letter which is now in the British Museum. In it he refers to Jesus as the King of the Jews, stating that they (the Jews) had crucified him.

PHLEGON was a first century historian whose 'Chronicles' have now been lost, but like Thallus (see below) is quoted by other early writers. Also like Thallus he mentions the darkness at the crucifixion of Jesus saying that "an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon".

PLINY THE YOUNGER (c. 61-113 AD) was governor of Bithinia in Asia Minor around AD 110 and wrote to the emperor Trajan (for whom he worked) concerning Christians. He had been putting Christians to death for their faith and making them bow down to Trajan's statue. He records how, in their defence, the Christians described their meetings for worship which included singing "a hymn to Christ as a god".

SUETONIUS (c. 69-122 AD) another Roman historian, the source of most of what we know of the caesars from Julius Caesar to Domitian, refers to "Chrestus" (another spelling of Christus) in his 'Life of Claudius'. He reports how Claudius expelled the christians from Rome in AD 49, which is mentioned in Acts 18 v 2. Suetonius also writes of the punishment of Christians by Nero.

[Hafswa]

In Islam, all the prophets came with the same basic message which is "Tawhid". This is the concept of monotheism and the oneness of God.

Thanks for this

[Imam]

You have to look at what was going on and has been going on it is strictly about who is to blame.

The Quran corrects this by saying
4:158
But God rose him (Jesus) to Him, and God was/is glorious/mighty , wise/judicious.

Do you know the meaning of the word (rafaaho) in the verse 4:157 ? does it mean resurrection from the death?

What every Muslims forgets:
10:94
So if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended to you, so ask/question those who read The Book from before you, the truth had come to you from your Lord, so do not be from the doubting/arguing.

And What you forgot is my explanation to you of such verse before..

check it again......


There is no mean to make the accounts of the Quran be reconciled with the New Testament in the issue of the so called crucifiction..... lots tried that before but failed....

[coddles76]

For what did Jesus Die?? Well put very simply, according to the Christians "Jesus Died for the sins of humanity" God gave his only begotten son to save the rest from sin. Its as simple as that. Now you must believe that, and the death of Jesus is a VERY important tenement of faith. If you don't believe that, then your not a believer, but this is were it becomes very complicated. What about the people who came before jesus? Are they saved? or are they lost in the wind. And what about the teachings that Jesus is GOD in flesh, that would mean that God sacrificed himself. I just find it amazing how such a complicated doctrine can be injected into the throats of people and that there are actual people out there that swallow it. I guess thats just the tests of life which many people will fail.

Then comes islam with the most beautiful description of Isa PBUH and his beautiful mother.

Quran 3:45 "Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah"

Isa PBUH is a very highly honored messanger of Allah SWT the most high. Allah does not need to sacrifice anything to save humanity nor does he need or worship. WE need to worship to save ourselves and our only savour will be our worship and the mercy of the Allah SWT the most high. The one who created the heavens and earth and can destroy it whenever he pleases. If he wills something to happen he merely has to say "BE" and it is. The doctrine of teaching to say that Allah SWT the most had to send his child to be sacrificed to save humanity is a degradation of Allah SWT the most highs powerful attributes and he is much higher than what they attribute to him.

[Grace Seeker]

to say that Allah SWT the most had to send his child to be sacrificed to save humanity is a degradation of Allah SWT the most highs powerful attributes and he is much higher than what they attribute to him.

I can understand how the doctrine of the incarnation might be seen as a degradation. But I don't see how the doctrine of the atonement is. Can you explain that to me? Or is the objection still b ased on the fact that Christians claim that this atonement was carried out by one who was God incarnate, so that it is really just a continued objection to the incarnation and not really about atonement at all?

[doorster]

....

[coddles76]

I can understand how the doctrine of the incarnation might be seen as a degradation. But I don't see how the doctrine of the atonement is. Can you explain that to me? Or is the objection still b ased on the fact that Christians claim that this atonement was carried out by one who was God incarnate, so that it is really just a continued objection to the incarnation and not really about atonement at all?

Hi Grace Seeker,
Great to see your still hear during the time I've been away.
If you read my explanation again you'll find that both the incarnation and the atonement is a degradation of Allah SWT high attributes. Allah SWT with his almighty attributes does not need to sacrifice a life (not of his incarnate self or his son, or any life for that matter) to redeem humanity. He has given us the free will and the tools of guidance to make that choice ourselves. Our saviour comes from our worship and deeds of goodness. Everybody is born pure and without sin, its only our actions that changes that. The power of Allah SWT is merely "BE" and it is. He doesn't need to sacrifice a life to make things happen, he just sends messengers to warn us and to do good. SIMPLE AS THAT! After that its our choice which way we wanna go. I think its pretty unfair to inherit the sins of someone else and then kill one person just to redeem them, dont you?

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Grace Seeker,
Everybody is born pure and without sin, its only our actions that changes that.

You might guess that I don't find this to be true. And for that reason, I do not imagine that we can ever truly be perfect as Allah would have us be perfect. Therefore we do need a savior, someone/something from coming from outside of ourselves to save us. This savior can't be another person who is just as unrighteous as I am. It needs to be one who is possesses the righrteousness of God. No mere human being since the time of Adam and Eve had met that qualification. So, if God doesn't save us, we cannot be saved.

But we are in agreement that God can and does ultimately declare us to be something that we are not. He justifies by imputing Christ's righteousness to us. We are declared holy and worthy when the reality is that we are anything but. Nevertheless, God looking not at our sin but Christ's righteousness welcomes us into his eternal presence.

He doesn't need to sacrifice a life to make things happen, he just sends messengers to warn us and to do good. SIMPLE AS THAT! After that its our choice which way we wanna go.

If I believed that we really could be good enough for God, then I would agree with the rest of what you said. The problem is that I don't think that can ever actually happen.

I think its pretty unfair to inherit the sins of someone else and then kill one person just to redeem them, dont you?

No and yes. No, I don't think there is anything either fair or unfair about the reality that I inherit things that I wouldn't want in my life. This just is the reality of life. I inherit my families disposition to heart disease (unfair), but not cancer (fair). I inherit baldness, good eyesight, a whole host of phsysical characteristics. I also "inherit" being born in a land of opportunity and great wealth while others were born with limited options, perhaps even not a fair chance to even make it to adulthood. Do we talk about these things been fair or unfair? They are simply givens because of choices that others made before us, and those choices have impact on our lives today. It may not be fair that my grandparents ruined the environment where I live or generations of my ancestors lived so as to selectively choose for being to live on scare calories so that when I have many available to me I get fat. But I still have to deal with these realities. And it may not be fair that Adam committed a sin that brought about a spiritual death to the me so that I am not born in a living relationship with God but that I am born seeking my own will first (just ask any crying baby and they will tell you it is all about them) and God isn't even an afterthought at the time. But that is a part of my reality as well.

And no I don't think it is fair that one person, Jesus, should pay the price for my sins. But I am sure glad that he did.

[coddles76]

You might guess that I don't find this to be true. And for that reason, I do not imagine that we can ever truly be perfect as Allah would have us be perfect. Therefore we do need a savior, someone/something from coming from outside of ourselves to save us. This savior can't be another person who is just as unrighteous as I am. It needs to be one who is possesses the righrteousness of God. No mere human being since the time of Adam and Eve had met that qualification. So, if God doesn't save us, we cannot be saved.

Just to be clear, being born pure is not being perfect. My point is that we are born PURE not PERFECT. No one is born perfect but we are all born pure of sin and only our future actions changes that state.
As for a saviour, we have a saviour in Allah SWT which is outside ourselves and greater the us and all we have to do is follow his commandments and to worship him alone who created us and all that is around us. Thats our saviour, nothing more or nothing less. He doesn't need to come down in the flesh then sacfrifice himself for the saviour of humankind. He merely sends his message and its up to us to follow or not, Hence the freewill. Islam is so simple and its the simplicity that is making it the fastest growing way of life in the world.

[Grace Seeker]

Just to be clear, being born pure is not being perfect. My point is that we are born PURE not PERFECT. No one is born perfect but we are all born pure of sin and only our future actions changes that state.

For my understanding if one is not perfect (as in God's perfect righteousness), then one is impure. There is no such condition whereby one is imperfect but still pure. If one was pure (in righteousness), then one would be perfect with regard to holiness as well.

This is in accordance with our scriptures: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure" (Jeremiah 17:9). Since it is beyond cure, there is nothing that you or I can do by any amount of deeds that can rectify the basic problem, which is a heart problem. It is a congenital heart defect that all since Adam have been born with.

As for a saviour, we have a saviour in Allah SWT which is outside ourselves and greater the us and all we have to do is follow his commandments and to worship him alone who created us and all that is around us. Thats our saviour, nothing more or nothing less. He doesn't need to come down in the flesh then sacfrifice himself for the saviour of humankind. He merely sends his message and its up to us to follow or not, Hence the freewill. Islam is so simple and its the simplicity that is making it the fastest growing way of life in the world.

I agree that Allah could be your Savior. Certainly, he is outside of ourselves and is the creator of all. Thus, he is not just greater than us, but than all, including our biggest problems or deficiencies. And while you assert that he doesn't need to come down in the flesh, I assert that nevertheless this is exactly what he did do. You can address it with him in the final judgment that he didn't need to do that, I will let him speak for himself as to why he did. But I must testify that whether we understand the reason for it or not is actually irrelevant to the fact that he did do it. At least according to that scripture which I find to be authoritative on the subject.

[Pygoscelis]

That's the sort of thinking I employed with my brother when we were both younger. Whenever there was a conflict my parents were of the opinion that I, being older, should know how to avoid it and therefore it was my responsiblity. My brother, being no dummy, used this to his advantage for sometime and would fake that I was doing something to him in order that I would get in trouble and he could get his way. But I had the last laugh, realizing that I was going to get in trouble no matter what, I just decided that I could and should routinely beat up my brother with impunity, because, after all, if I was going to get in trouble for it, I might as well have actually committed the crime I was going to be punished for.

Exactly. One tin soldier rides away and all that jazz. In encourages exactly the behaviour you and your brother displayed.

Only it goes one step further than that. It can actually be seen to ENCOURAGE it, not just let you get away with it. You see, the more you sin, the more Jesus' sacrifice is worth. The more you sin, the more glory you bring to the lord. This is the twisted logic that comes from the idea of sacrifice for FUTURE sin. Its kind of quirky this get out of jail free card from Jesus thing.

[coddles76]

For my understanding if one is not perfect (as in God's perfect righteousness), then one is impure. There is no such condition whereby one is imperfect but still pure. If one was pure (in righteousness), then one would be perfect with regard to holiness as well.

This is in accordance with our scriptures: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure" (Jeremiah 17:9). Since it is beyond cure, there is nothing that you or I can do by any amount of deeds that can rectify the basic problem, which is a heart problem. It is a congenital heart defect that all since Adam have been born with.

For everybodies understanding and which everybody SHOULD logically understand, it is not our Heart that gets judged on the day of judgement, It is our souls. I agree that some of us are born with faulty hearts and I really feel for these people and there trials but everybodies SOULS are born pure at birth. Its our job here amongst all these trials and tribulations to keep that SOUL as clean as possible, its OUR job, not the job of someone else. And once again the death of someone doesn't take away that responsability to keep that SOUL pure.

I agree that Allah could be your Savior. Certainly, he is outside of ourselves and is the creator of all. Thus, he is not just greater than us, but than all, including our biggest problems or deficiencies. And while you assert that he doesn't need to come down in the flesh, I assert that nevertheless this is exactly what he did do. You can address it with him in the final judgment that he didn't need to do that, I will let him speak for himself as to why he did. But I must testify that whether we understand the reason for it or not is actually irrelevant to the fact that he did do it. At least according to that scripture which I find to be authoritative on the subject.

What I will be addressing on the day of judgement will be to recieve his mercy, I certainly will not degrade him and ask whether he came down and roamed the earth with us in the flesh, that is ONE thing I surely WILL NOT be doing (God Forbid).

[Grace Seeker]

Only it goes one step further than that. It can actually be seen to ENCOURAGE it, not just let you get away with it. You see, the more you sin, the more Jesus' sacrifice is worth. The more you sin, the more glory you bring to the lord. This is the twisted logic that comes from the idea of sacrifice for FUTURE sin. Its kind of quirky this Jesus thing.

As you yourself said, the idea that the more you sin the more glory you bring to the Lord is actually twisted logic. And it is not a part of Christian theology.


Coodles, it seems to me we understand each other's points on this and simply disagree not about theological interpretation so much as on what actually did or did not occur. So, I'll just pray that Allah will help you to live a righteous life in full submission to him and ask that you pray the same for me. Our understanding of how that might be accomplished may differ, but we ought to be able to offer the same prayer, and then let God bring to pass what he will bring to pass.

[coddles76]

So, I'll just pray that Allah will help you to live a righteous life in full submission to him and ask that you pray the same for me. Our understanding of how that might be accomplished may differ, but we ought to be able to offer the same prayer, and then let God bring to pass what he will bring to pass.

Thankyou for your prayer and I not only pray for you but I pray for all humankind to be lead to righteousness and salvation because we all surely need it amongst the corruption we accounter in our daily lives.