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AntiKarateKid
02-07-2009, 11:47 PM
A certain post on this forum prompted this question in mind.

If you were traveling and you came upon what you knew to be a small pagan shrine made of sticks and stones, assuming noone is around, would you destroy it?

My thoughts are that if there are many of it's followers around, destroying it outright may make them distance themselves from Islam in anger. So, with the mission of spreading Islam in mind, I would not destroy it.


Yet if noone was around, I would certainly destroy it. It's presence serves as a misguidance to the people around it. Indeed, non-muslims may gnash their teeth at such an act but I act according to the commands of Allah and not them.

Of course people would say "what if I did the same to your shrines?" Well, Allah would destroy you in this life or the next, so I wouldnt worry. The little stick and stone idol on the otherhand is powerless.





What are your thoughts? Muslim brothers and sisters?
Reply

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- Qatada -
03-04-2009, 05:21 PM
:salamext:


Surah Anbiya';
51. And indeed We bestowed aforetime on Ibrâhim (Abraham) his (portion of) guidance, and We were Well-Acquainted with him (as to his Belief in the Oneness of Allâh, etc.).
52. When he said to his father and his people: "What are these images, to which you are devoted?"
53. They said:"We found our fathers worshipping them."
54. He said: "Indeed you and your fathers have been in manifest error."
55. They said: "Have you brought us the truth, or are you one of those who play about?"
56. He said: "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who created them and of that I am one of the witnesses.
57. "And by Allâh, I shall plot a plan (to destroy) your idols after you have gone away and turned your backs."
58. So he broke them to pieces, (all) except the biggest of them, that they might turn to it.
59. They said: "Who has done this to our âliha (gods)? He must indeed be one of the wrong-doers."
60. They said: "We heard a young man talking (against) them who is called Ibrâhim (Abraham)."
61. They said: "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may testify."
62. They said: "Are you the one who has done this to our gods, O Ibrâhim (Abraham)?"
63. [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] said: "Nay, this one, the biggest of them (idols) did it. Ask them, if they can speak!"[]
64. So they turned to themselves and said: "Verily, you are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers)."
65. Then they turned to themselves (their first thought and said): "Indeed you [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] know well that these (idols) speak not!"
66. [Ibrâhim (Abraham)] said: "Do you then worship besides Allâh, things that can neither profit you, nor harm you?
67. "Fie upon you, and upon that which you worship besides Allâh! Have you then no sense?"
68. They said: "Burn him and help your âliha (gods), if you will be doing."
69. We (Allâh) said: "O fire! Be you coolness and safety for Ibrâhim (Abraham)!"
70. And they wanted to harm him, but We made them the worst losers.




Its funny lol, Ibrahim peace be upon him broke all the idols except the biggest one and placed the axe in his hand. When the people came back, they said 'who broke them?' and he said 'ask the biggest one'.



lol, then they realised he couldn't talk or see, which disproved their claim of their idols really being gods. But even then they disbelieved.




But yeah, he was wise.
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K.Venugopal
03-04-2009, 07:06 PM
Islam not only says there is only one God, it also says there is only one way of worship. No wonder ideas like destroying others' places of worship crop up in the Muslim mind.
Reply

Woodrow
03-04-2009, 07:18 PM
I can not reconcile the destroying of another person's property as being justified. My solution would be to buy such a shrine and once it is legally my property, do with it as I find best.
Reply

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Al-Zaara
03-04-2009, 07:19 PM
I wouldn't destroy it, assuming no one is around, I don't really know what purpose the shrine has. Don't think me going loco and destroying it would do much good, as I am not informed what is happening there. I'd make a dua for those who are strayed away and ask Allah to take away the ignorace.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-04-2009, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can not reconcile the destroying of another person's property as being justified. My solution would be to buy such a shrine and once it is legally my property, do with it as I find best.
Same here.
Reply

doorster
03-04-2009, 07:28 PM
For Muslims: Would you destroy this?
No, unless off course I want to start a war
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Islam not only says there is only one God, it also says there is only one way of worship. No wonder ideas like destroying others' places of worship crop up in the Muslim mind.
Islam and antikarate kid are not synonyms, furthermore, unlike in your country where security forces guard over and escort thugs to destroy other religions places of worship, in Pakistan on the other hand we actually protect Non-Muslim places of worship and have lost many soldiers to death and/or injuries at the hands of terrorists while doing that job

Protection of Non-Muslims' Places of Worship

First of all, we would like to make it clear that Islam’s teachings as regard non-Muslims and its keenness on granting them full protection is not confined to the sphere of worship. Rather, Islam’s mercy and great concern for non-Muslims cover all aspects of life. But here we will tackle only the point referred to in your question, revealing the shinning history of Islam with non-Muslims, and how their places of worship are given full protection.

In this regard, we would like to cite for you the following fatwa issued by the well-known erudite scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi in which he states the following:
Islam establishes a relationship with the people of different faiths on the basis of tolerance, justice, benevolence, and mercy. The basis of this relationship is Allah’s saying in the Qur’an: [Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8- 9)

According to the Qur’an, Muslims are required to deal with all people kindly and justly as long as they do not oppose or oppress Muslims or place obstacles in the way of spreading Islam.

Of non-Muslims, Islam gives special consideration for the People of the Book, that is, Jews and Christians, whether they reside in a Muslim society or not.

Being a divine religion revealed to guide all mankind, Islam tackles all aspects of man's life, regardless of whether he believes in it or not. That is why we see it granting many rights and privileges to non-Muslim citizens of the Islamic state. Muslims are ordered to show full consideration to this injunction and give due respect to non-Muslims' places of worship, which are part and parcel of their property enjoying full protection in Islam.

Protection of property:

The Islamic government is bound to protect the properties of non-Muslims. In his book Al-Kharaj, Abu Yusuf sheds light on the Prophet’s contract with the people of Najran: “Najran and its neighboring area are in the security of Allah, the Almighty, and His Messenger. The property, religions and churches of the inhabitants, as well as properties, whether much or little, are under the protection of the Prophet.”

`Umar ibn Al-Khattab, in his letter to Abu `Ubaydah ibn Al-Jarrah (may Allah be pleased with them both) wrote: “Prevent Muslims from wronging or causing harm to them (non-Muslims) or taking their property illegally.”

Freedom of worship:

This means the freedom to practice any religion or ideology and not to be forced to adopt a certain faith or compelled to convert to Islam. This is based on the verse:

[Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.] (Al-Baqarah 2: 256)

Commenting on the verse, the famous exegete Ibn Katheer states: “Don’t force anyone to embrace Islam as it is clear and self-evident in its proofs and realities and does not need to exert force to be accepted.”

Islam protects the places of worship of non-Muslims, and allows them to observe their religious ceremonies. Allah says:

[To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).] (Al-Hajj 22: 39-40)

In the reign of `Umar ibn Al-Khattab, the religious freedom of the citizens of Ilya (Jerusalem) and the sanctity of their synagogues and places of worship were confirmed: “This is the protection which the slave-servant of Allah, `Umar, the Commander of the Believers, extends to the people of Ilya: The safeguarding of their lives, properties, churches, crosses, and of their entire community. Their churches cannot be occupied, demolished, or damaged, nor are their crosses or anything belonging to them to be touched. They will never be forced to abandon their religion, nor will they be oppressed. None of the Jews will live with them in Ilya….” (At-Tabari, Tarikh, Vol III, p. 609, ed. Dar Al-Ma`arif, Egypt.)

Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed, in his covenant with the People of `Anat, wrote: “They are allowed to ring the bells at any time of the day or night, except in the time of the Islamic prayer times. They are allowed to bear their crosses in their festivals.” (Abu Yusuf, Al-Kharaj, p. 146)

Muslims not only allowed non-Muslims to enjoy the freedom of their faith, but also let them follow their way even though some of their practices might conflict with the religion of the majority. Actually, this is the highest degree of tolerance. Muslims tolerated the religious practices of their minorities by not prohibiting even those practices which were contrary to the state ideology.

History bears witness to the fact that Muslims accepted and applied the Islamic laws to an extent that has no parallel in the history of mankind. The fair and tolerant approach they show to other faiths are no secret.

Asserting the tolerance of Muslims, Tritton says:

“Muslim rulers frequently went beyond what was required of them in their relations with non-Muslims. The best example of this is the presence of churches and other (non-Muslim) places of worship in purely Arab (Muslim) cities. Government departments always had Christians and Jewish officials who were sometimes given very sensitive and influential posts. Some non-Muslims thus acquired great wealth. In addition, Muslims were accustomed to sharing with Christian their festivals.” (Khartubali, Hasan Ali, Islam and Ahl Adh-Dhimmah, p. 256)
Based on Al-Qaradawi’s book Ghayr Al-Muslimeen fil Mujtama` Al-Islami (Non-Muslims in the Islamic Society).
Related Questions
- Religious Freedom in the Eyes of Shari`ah
- Freedom of Belief & Minority Rights in Muslim Countries
- Can I Share an Iftar Meal with My Christian Friend?
- Domains of Muslim-Christian Cooperation




Allah Almighty knows best.
Reply

Musaafirah
03-04-2009, 07:34 PM
Personal thoughts, no.
'To you your religion, to me mine.'
We could always try Da'wah you know. Hmmm.
Reply

crayon
03-04-2009, 09:03 PM
What will one gain by destroying it?
Surely waiting for the people who worship it to appear, and educating them about what they're doing, is better than just destroying something they could rebuild right away?
Reply

AntiKarateKid
03-04-2009, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
No, unless off course I want to start a war
Islam and antikarate kid are not synonyms
This coming from a person who insults prospective converts and who cant continue a debate without name calling?



THis is a hypothetical situation so lets not start ganging up on me. Notice I didnt cite any backup for my opinion meaning these are just musings.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
03-04-2009, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
What will one gain by destroying it?
Surely waiting for the people who worship it to appear, and educating them about what they're doing, is better than just destroying something they could rebuild right away?
Technically you could do both. I would rather see them destroy it with their own hands though.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
03-04-2009, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can not reconcile the destroying of another person's property as being justified. My solution would be to buy such a shrine and once it is legally my property, do with it as I find best.
THough we are not Prophets obviously, Prophet Ibrahim pbuh didnt think this way. Arent we supposed to be following their example?
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aadil77
03-04-2009, 09:51 PM
:D Ooo dunno if I could resist getting rid of that filth. Maybe I would knock it down like a snowman or leave it be depends on my mood :shade:
Reply

ninetrey
03-04-2009, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
THough we are not Prophets obviously, Prophet Ibrahim pbuh didnt think this way. Arent we supposed to be following their example?
yes thats why Allah(God) sents prophets to earth!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-04-2009, 10:25 PM
honestly speaking


depends completely on my mood

i would probably incline towards destroying it


theres this huge statue on battersea which ive felt liek destroying sooo many times :|
Reply

tallman58r
03-04-2009, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
A certain post on this forum prompted this question in mind.

If you were traveling and you came upon what you knew to be a small pagan shrine made of sticks and stones, assuming noone is around, would you destroy it?

My thoughts are that if there are many of it's followers around, destroying it outright may make them distance themselves from Islam in anger. So, with the mission of spreading Islam in mind, I would not destroy it.


Yet if noone was around, I would certainly destroy it. It's presence serves as a misguidance to the people around it. Indeed, non-muslims may gnash their teeth at such an act but I act according to the commands of Allah and not them.

Of course people would say "what if I did the same to your shrines?" Well, Allah would destroy you in this life or the next, so I wouldnt worry. The little stick and stone idol on the otherhand is powerless.

What are your thoughts? Muslim brothers and sisters?

Well it comes to mind that now you would be a criminal act for destroying some one elses property and if discovererd you are considered a criminal and could go to jail.,,, in additon if the person owning the idol could put in a cival claim against you that you caused him loss of property and perhaps sue you for a large sum of money in that you caused him mental suffering and anguish.

Of course if he was not a muslim he might retaliate against muslims or mosques.....

I personally belive that one persons religon stops at the point other peoples religon begins and if we dont respect other peoples religon, we should not espect them to respect ours....

There are small shrines all over south america and if some one did catch you destroying one it would be very unhealthy...:peace:
Reply

crayon
03-05-2009, 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Technically you could do both. I would rather see them destroy it with their own hands though.
You couldn't really, no.

I don't think destroying their object of worship is getting off on the right foot with them. You mess with their shrine, they're going to be enraged and get defensive and not even listen to what you have to say.
Reply

- Qatada -
03-05-2009, 07:19 PM
:salamext:

The obligation to remove idols;

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/20894/idols



I don't know whether it applies to when the place has Islamic rule over it, or a general command. Allah knows best.
Reply

Dawud_uk
03-05-2009, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
A certain post on this forum prompted this question in mind.

If you were traveling and you came upon what you knew to be a small pagan shrine made of sticks and stones, assuming noone is around, would you destroy it?

My thoughts are that if there are many of it's followers around, destroying it outright may make them distance themselves from Islam in anger. So, with the mission of spreading Islam in mind, I would not destroy it.


Yet if noone was around, I would certainly destroy it. It's presence serves as a misguidance to the people around it. Indeed, non-muslims may gnash their teeth at such an act but I act according to the commands of Allah and not them.

Of course people would say "what if I did the same to your shrines?" Well, Allah would destroy you in this life or the next, so I wouldnt worry. The little stick and stone idol on the otherhand is powerless.





What are your thoughts? Muslim brothers and sisters?
:sl:

its the sunnah of the prophets and practice of the sahabah, i would destroy it either way, if they were there i would explain why i was doing it.

that their idols cannot help themselves, its just clay or wood.
Reply

doorster
03-05-2009, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

its the sunnah of the prophets and practice of the sahabah, i would destroy it either way, if they were there i would explain why i was doing it.

that their idols cannot help themselves, its just clay or wood.
there are many Churches and temples in UK with Icons and Idols housed within them. how many of them have you destroyed thus far?


Stop it before some moron takes your misguidance as sound Islamic advice and acts upon it
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
03-05-2009, 08:57 PM
^ that is foolishness.

if you analyse, the sahabi's only destroyed those statues after they attained power.
Reply

Eric H
03-05-2009, 09:03 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;

its the sunnah of the prophets and practice of the sahabah, i would destroy it either way, if they were there i would explain why i was doing it.

that their idols cannot help themselves, its just clay or wood
I would not like to see anyone destroy a Mosque because they believe you worship a false God, after all it is just a structure, just like an idol.

If you were there, and they explained why they are doing it, would that help and justify their actions

In the spirit of praying for justice for others

Eric
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-05-2009, 09:09 PM
Hmmmm this is another item that that I would include in the British Governement's find-a-radical guidelines.
Reply

doorster
03-05-2009, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hmmmm this is another item that that I would include in the British Governement's find-a-radical guidelines.
hmmmm can you prove that he is one of us and not one of you?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-05-2009, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
hmmmm can you prove that he is one of us and not one of you?
Antikid?
Reply

doorster
03-05-2009, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Antikid?
no comment on him for now, I meant the one quoted @ http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1107475

come to think of it, is anyone, on such forums, who (s)he purports to be?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
03-05-2009, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
no comment on him for now, I meant the one quoted @ http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1107475

come to think of it, is anyone, on such forums, who (s)he purports to be?
I think both are, but I don't think any of them would actually go about destroying a shrine even if no one was nearby, no offence Anti and Dawud.
Similar situation to Israel, lotsa shouting but no fighting coming from Muslims here..
Reply

aamirsaab
03-05-2009, 10:49 PM
:sl:
I wouldn't destroy it. I don't see how that could be beneficial to anyone; at most it will just anger the followers of that religion (which is really bad for dawah purposes) and at the least, noone will notice so noone will care - I will have exerted energy and wasted time over something completely insignificant which carried zero benefit to anyone on the planet.

Either way, it wouldn't fit in with giving dawah (one outcome does the exact opposite and pushes them further from Islam; the other doesn't bring them any closer to it...so why bother? I know the Prophet Ibrahim did something similar but there was actually a point being made - in this example, it's just: ''No one is looking...quick let's smash it to bits!''
Reply

Dawud_uk
03-06-2009, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
I wouldn't destroy it. I don't see how that could be beneficial to anyone; at most it will just anger the followers of that religion (which is really bad for dawah purposes) and at the least, noone will notice so noone will care - I will have exerted energy and wasted time over something completely insignificant which carried zero benefit to anyone on the planet.

Either way, it wouldn't fit in with giving dawah (one outcome does the exact opposite and pushes them further from Islam; the other doesn't bring them any closer to it...so why bother? I know the Prophet Ibrahim did something similar but there was actually a point being made - in this example, it's just: ''No one is looking...quick let's smash it to bits!''
assalaamu alaykum,

so the sahabah were wrong to destroy idols and Rasoolullah (saws) was wrong to send them to do so?

akhi, i know you pray at my local masjid (still dont know who you are in real life yet but you said before you pray at masjid taqwa) so let me borrow you some books on seerah so you can read this for yourself from the scholars.

re churches, as i understand it the rulership of islam is established first, but then they are allowed to exist aslong as they have no external symbols of disbelief like crosses etc on the outside of the building.

assalaamu alaykum,
Reply

aamirsaab
03-06-2009, 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

so the sahabah were wrong to destroy idols and Rasoolullah (saws) was wrong to send them to do so?
....
You misunderstood me. The Sahabah and the Prophets were making a point out of doing what they were doing when they were doing it (I don't have a problem with them doing what they did, since they actually had a reason).

In this example that AntiKarateKid gave there is no point or reason; it's just asking would you smash the shrine to bits of noone was looking. Based solely on that, the answer, from me, is no. I don't believe I have to smash someone's religious icons in order to convince them Islam is the truth - I'd much rather talk with them about their religion and convince them with words and dialogue.

Even Prophet Ibrahim spoke with the idol worshippers - so unless this example involved me speaking with the followers after the smashing of their shrine, there'd be no point in doing so.
Reply

justahumane
03-06-2009, 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by doorster
hmmmm can you prove that he is one of us and not one of you?
U have made a point here. Ppls acting as muslims here and quoting prophets for all unislamic acts of destroying places of worship can actually turn out to be kuffar like Us, giving us a bad name. How sad, will now doves start playing hawks to malign them?:'(:'(:'( or hawks are playing doves?
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Danah
03-06-2009, 12:37 PM
no I will not first because they will not think about it from a religious view...they will just got mad because I destroy something belong to them

so, talking to them, giving dawah is better, because they might get satisfied and destroy it themselves...that will be more effective
but do it by force will make it even worse....they will insist on their stubbornness and ignorance and will hate Islam even if they knew later that it is the right path to follow, because they will keep feeling that their honor was attacked one day by Islam.
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S_87
03-06-2009, 05:29 PM
i personally wouldnt destroy it myself, but if its like for example how some taliban members destroyed a shrine this week, then i say go them!
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czgibson
03-06-2009, 05:47 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by amani
i personally wouldnt destroy it myself, but if its like for example how some taliban members destroyed a shrine this week, then i say go them!
The more that some Muslims (like you) encourage destruction, the worse Islam's public image becomes.

Peace
Reply

S_87
03-06-2009, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


The more that some Muslims (like you) encourage destruction, the worse Islam's public image becomes.

Peace
what can i say, truth stands clear from falsehood. islam will not be watered down for its 'public image'

you may find this interesting:
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/20894/idols
Reply

doorster
03-06-2009, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by amani
what can i say, truth stands clear from falsehood. islam will not be watered down for its 'public image'

you may find this interesting:
-ttp://--------com/en/ref/20894/idols
islam will not be watered down for its 'public image'
is Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi watering down Islam for sake of its image?
Reply

czgibson
03-06-2009, 10:15 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by amani
what can i say, truth stands clear from falsehood. islam will not be watered down for its 'public image'

you may find this interesting:
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/20894/idols
Not hugely. More frightening and upsetting really.

Peace
Reply

doorster
03-06-2009, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Not hugely. More frightening and upsetting really.

Peace
^^ You CANNOT be serious!

Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


The more that some Muslims (like you) encourage destruction, the worse Islam's public image becomes.

Peace
after reading the post above (one with link to islamqa) for the sake balance and sanity, for a non biased non sectarian version from Salafi Ulema go to >> http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1106892
Reply

czgibson
03-06-2009, 10:46 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by doorster
^^ You CANNOT be serious!
What do you mean? I'm quite serious.

after reading the post above (one with link to islamqa) for the sake balance and sanity, for a non biased non sectarian version from Salafi Ulema go to >> http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1106892

(can't guarantee that this post survives for long though, hopefully you will see it before it vanishes)
Well, it completely contradicts the article amani provided. Who knows what to think?

If there's any doubt, it's probably safer to err on the side of not destroying cultural artefacts.

That's just my opinion, of course, so it probably counts for nothing.

Peace
Reply

جوري
03-06-2009, 11:12 PM
Idols and cultural artifacts are different animals.. But the definition isn't a liberal one.
Muslims would have destroyed pharonic artifacts subsequent to the conquest of Egypt, but that wasn't the case was it? And we are to assume the that early khalifs followed Islam better than we are considering the conquest of Amro Bin Al-Aas was in the 20th year hijri.. that is of course as a remote example to all the places they have been. Idols in Mecca however being actively worshipped is a different story.. one wonders indeed what would have become of christianity if they didn't venrate wooden crosses and consecrated men.. but then again, if they didn't, we wouldn't have an example to give for our analogies!

all the best
Reply

Muhammad
03-06-2009, 11:44 PM
:sl:

I don't see how the article that doorster posted and the one from islamqa contradict each other. One just seems more general about the rights of non-Muslims (and you can see that the question posed there is not exactly what is being discussed here), whereas the other is specific to destroying idols.

Anyway, this issue seems to be inviting personal opinion and people might easily say something wrong. We can all appreciate that there is a need to act in accordance with the teachings of Islam and implement them with wisdom in such a situation. The best thing would be to research the Islamic position on this topic and refer the matter to those with knowledge.

Thread closed.


P.S. For your information, islamqa is not "sectarian" as you can read on the site.
Reply

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