Where Is God?

[Indigåtor]

Peace,

I was curious to see some of your answers to this question. Where is Allah according to Islam? Perhaps some of you could cite the Qur'an or the hadiths to support your answer.

[Zamtsa]

Allahu Ta'ala is (ever) near with His hearing, seeing, and knowledge(unseen and tangible) and His hearing, seeing and knowledge are everywhere. His creation is everywhere and His Malaikat are (ever) near to every human beings.

Al Qur'an(Kalamullah) has stated that Allahu Jalla Jalaaluhu:


Thaha(20):5 (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established (mounted) on the throne .


His creation is everywhere:

6 To Him belongs what is in the heavens and on earth and all between them and all beneath the soil.


His hearing and knowledge are everywhere:

Tha Ha(20):7 If thou pronounce the word aloud (it is no matter): for verily He knoweth what is secret and what is yet more hidden.


He has more than 99 beautiful names.
8 Allah! there is no god but He! To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names.


He will not only give safety and salvation on the earth, but will also give the eternal reward in the Paradise. And His seeing is everywhere:


An Nisa(4):134 Whoso desireth the reward of the world, (let him know that) with Allah is the reward of the world and the Hereafter. Allah is ever Hearer, Seer.


And His angels are everywhere to note what every people doing.

Qaf (50):16 It was We who created man and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular
17 When two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and note them) one sitting on the right and one on the left.
18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him ready (to note it).

His reward is near. He creates everything below Himself.


Assalamu manit taba'al huda (May peace, development and safe from guile be upon who follow the guidance).

[anatolian]

"Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Supporter of all. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is thee can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)." (Quran 2:255)

I believe this ayah answers your question.

[saba muslimah]

The First Loagical step.. Do u Believe or Know ALLAH??
Wa dahu la Shareek...

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[Indigåtor]

I received an answer via private message from Abdul Thayyib, although I'm not seeing it here. Nonetheless, I've pasted the answer below. (I'm unsure if he presented a fatwa or wrote it himself)

Allahu Ta'ala is (ever) near with His hearing, seeing, and knowledge(unseen and tangible) and His hearing, seeing and knowledge are everywhere. His creation is everywhere and His Malaikat are (ever) near to every human beings.

Al Qur'an(Kalamullah) has stated that Allahu Jalla Jalaaluhu:


Thaha(20):5 (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne .


His creation is everywhere:

6 To Him belongs what is in the heavens and on earth and all between them and all beneath the soil.


His hearing and knowledge are everywhere:

Tha Ha(20):7 If thou pronounce the word aloud (it is no matter): for verily He knoweth what is secret and what is yet more hidden.


He has more than 99 beautiful names.
8 Allah! there is no god but He! To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names.


He will not only give safety and salvation on the earth, but will also give the eternal reward in the Paradise. And His seeing is everywhere:


An Nisa(4):134 Whoso desireth the reward of the world, (let him know that) with Allah is the reward of the world and the Hereafter. Allah is ever Hearer, Seer.


And His angels are everywhere to note what every people doing.

Qaf (50):16 It was We who created man and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular
17 When two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and note them) one sitting on the right and one on the left.
18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him ready (to note it).

Allah's reward is near. Allahu Ta'ala created everything below Himself.

Apparently, then, God does have His own location from where He watches and governs His creation. I wouldn't know how many Muslims here agree with the above explanation but I personally know a few that would deem this as a mistaken interpretation of the Qur'an.

Islam teaches that every existent thing is a creation, with the exception of the Creator. If we characterize this Creator as having a material location in heaven and see ourselves as literally below Him, then we have connected Him with space (location), form and time. In this sense, God, according to the Qur'an is either voluntarily or involuntarily subject to His own creation [space/time/form]. This belief is termed as anthropomorphism - or simply humanizing what is thought to be uncreated. Existing "below" God means that God is a being that had limited itself within the constraints of space and time and inherently gave itself a shape; "establishing" Himself on a throne appears to indicate that He utilizes a material and created thing for whatever reason.

Unless I have misconstrued the answer given by AT, then is not such a literalist belief a denial of divine omnipotence and omniscience? I'd love to have an intellectual discussion on this topic. I'm going to create a poll and thread in the comp. religion section and take a look at what other theists think... if being a limited member will allow me the option of posting a poll.

All the best,

Indigåtor

[allahuakbar90]

salaam

Allah the Almighty has told us that He is in the heavens: [Have ye taken security from Him Who is in the heaven that He will not cause the earth to swallow you when lo! it is convulsed? Or have ye taken security from Him Who is in the heaven that He will not let loose on you a hurricane? But ye shall know the manner of My warning.] (Al-Mulk 67: 16-17)

Allah the Almighty Says: [Indeed, your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He rose over the Throne [in a manner that suits His Majesty].

[Indigåtor]

"Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Supporter of all. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is thee can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)." (Quran 2:255)

I believe this ayah answers your question.

Peace anatolian,

My question pertains to the Islamic perspective and the logic thereof. It isn't simply an enquiry, but a chance to discuss the topic with Muslims. The ayah you quote says that God's throne extends over the universe, meaning God is positioned "up", although He created the place He exists in?

[alcurad]

as I said in a post in a similar thread-consequently started by you Indigator-:

"Allah is not bound by time & space, true, but it's actually quite complicated from there on. or not,,
In Islam he has several 'names', these are attributes that can't mostly be his without his creation, such as the merciful, the creator and so on.

One of the names, in close translation means 'the All knowing', this means that he knew of us even before our creation, so we were part of his knowledge, and his knowledge is eternal as he is. Before our existence, we were a possibility for existence. Without creating, 'The Creator' is only a possibility, not manifest yet.

he is the only being existing absolutely, truly, we-and the rest of his creation- exist temporally, relatively.

He is described in arabic as a 'That', which approximately means 'self/being', his 'That' separate from his attributes is nowhere in regards to us, it is beyond creation, his names and attributes, that are the names and attributes of the 'That' are-appearently- in this world; his creation.
They are his actions, the link between us-and all creation- and him.
We notice his actions, and through them know of him, but not him, for he is beyond us, greater than us.

Some notice his actions behind all occurrences, and thus are lost within him; his actions, thus are not aware of the difference. In Islam we clearly separate between Allah and his creation, true, we do seek, and long for him, but we are not him."

the idea of space as a constraint has been around for some quite some time now, centuries actually, muslim scholars have had different interpretations as such, the prophet didn't specify much about the subject, and it's not such an important thing to actually know:where God is.

almost all interpretations could be supported, the minimum expected of a Muslim is that he not adhere to the view that God is part of his creation in any way, other than that, it's a matter of personal opinion more than anything else.

[Indigåtor]

The First Loagical step.. Do u Believe or Know ALLAH??
Wa dahu la Shareek...

Peace saba muslimah,

I've been very acquainted with God/Allah, before turning away from theism. I have heard countless details and descriptions of the nature (or attributes) of Allah, His omnipotence, omniscience, etc,.

My point is that if the Qur'an and the hadiths interconnect God with creation then that God is not transcendent - He is a being within our realm of existence: time and space. Thus, if one were to assume this to be true, God 'placed' Himself inside in a part of His creation - above the seven heavens.

A logical question would be where was Allah before He created the throne and all the heavens? Predictably, the answer to that one will be, we haven't been given knowledge of this. In spite of that

[Indigåtor]

as I said in a post in a similar thread-consequently started by you Indigator-:

"Allah is not bound by time & space, true, but it's actually quite complicated from there on. or not,,
In Islam he has several 'names', these are attributes that can't mostly be his without his creation, such as the merciful, the creator and so on.

One of the names, in close translation means 'the All knowing', this means that he knew of us even before our creation, so we were part of his knowledge, and his knowledge is eternal as he is. Before our existence, we were a possibility for existence. Without creating, 'The Creator' is only a possibility, not manifest yet.

he is the only being existing absolutely, truly, we-and the rest of his creation- exist temporally, relatively.

He is described in arabic as a 'That', which approximately means 'self/being', his 'That' separate from his attributes is nowhere in regards to us, it is beyond creation, his names and attributes, that are the names and attributes of the 'That' are-appearently- in this world; his creation.
They are his actions, the link between us-and all creation- and him.
We notice his actions, and through them know of him, but not him, for he is beyond us, greater than us.

Some notice his actions behind all occurrences, and thus are lost within him; his actions, thus are not aware of the difference. In Islam we clearly separate between Allah and his creation, true, we do seek, and long for him, but we are not him."

the idea of space as a constraint has been around for some quite some time now, centuries actually, muslim scholars have had different interpretations as such, the prophet didn't specify much about the subject, and it's not such an important thing to actually know:where God is.

almost all interpretations could be supported, the minimum expected of a Muslim is that he not adhere to the view that God is part of his creation in any way, other than that, it's a matter of personal opinion more than anything else.

Actually, I've never, ever discovered a single hadith that explains God's 'whereabouts.' However, there was a hadith where Muhammad questioned a young girl about God and he himself asked her, "where is Allah"? She replies that He is in the sky (heaven) and Muhammad responded approvingly. It is comforting for us intellectuals to assume that God transcends time and space, but unfortunately the Qur'an does not appear give credit to such an interpretation, and I need not mention the hadiths. The book states that the Creator rose above His "throne" and is indeed in heaven, aside from various other verses pointing to an anthropomorphic God.

I understand scholars have studied and debated the matter, and many have inferred that all these verses and hadiths are metaphorical or "unspecific", yet no evidence is found to support that view, only conjecture.

[Muezzin]

Peace saba muslimah,

I've been very acquainted with God/Allah, before turning away from theism. I have heard countless details and descriptions of the nature (or attributes) of Allah, His omnipotence, omniscience, etc,.

My point is that if the Qur'an and the hadiths interconnect God with creation then that God is not transcendent - He is a being within our realm of existence: time and space. Thus, if one were to assume this to be true, God 'placed' Himself inside in a part of His creation - above the seven heavens.

A logical question would be where was Allah before He created the throne and all the heavens? Predictably, the answer to that one will be, we haven't been given knowledge of this. In spite of that

How does 'above the seven heavens' translate to 'not transcendent of reality'?

Unless one thinks of 'heavens' as layers of the atmosphere or something.

Any road, as an author transcends his written work, yet knows all that it contains, so God transcends His creation and has full knowledge of what it contains, where it came from, where it is, where it's going etc.

Disclaimer: I am not a scholar. Any subsequent ownage of this message is an ownage of my ideas only, not of Islam.

[Indigåtor]

How does 'above the seven heavens' translate to 'not transcendent of reality'?

Unless one thinks of 'heavens' as layers of the atmosphere or something.

Any road, as an author transcends his written work, yet knows all that it contains, so God transcends His creation and has full knowledge of what it contains, where it came from, where it is, where it's going etc.

Disclaimer: I am not a scholar. Any subsequent ownage of this message is an ownage of my ideas only, not of Islam.

How does it not?

By heavens I don't mean the earth's sky, I speak of the universe as a whole. According to the Qur'an and hadiths, God is literally positioned above His creation and is firmly established upon His throne.

You might contend that the verses and hadiths may be interpreted more appropriately but that would obviously be mere conjecture and speculation without any scriptural proof. Before the aqeedas were produced, or at the times of the early generations after Muhammad, nothing reveals that those people believed in a totally transcendent god. All things point to a God represented materially; a deity with natural, albeit unseen, qualities, supposedly being omnipotent and yet anthropomorphic at the same time. It only makes sense that a corporeal god cannot be called omnipotent or omniscient, nor can it be pre-existent.

[alcurad]

the girl who was asked was a girl who couldn't and wasn't expected to have debated philosophical musings such as that, yes? and what is meant by 'approvingly' exactly here, he never discussed the issue to any great lengths, so this case is to be made into the official doctrine? some do that as it was,,

above means beyond, the throne is end/limit of creation, 'istawa' doesn't mean sat on, it has multiple meanings, most scholars say it is not meant as that.

In the qur'an there are many ambiguous verse, that could support multiple meanings, thus all the meanings that could be supported are possible, the only requirement in cases regarding Allah and his attributes and names is that one does not in any manner assciate him with his creation as stated/strongly implied in several verses, otherwise you may believe whatever you want as long as there is a semblance of support for your view.

It is not a fact that all the early muslims believed that Allah is completely transcendental, yes, but how do you know they did or didn't believe such anyway, their views were not recorded, you're making too many assumptions.. the views of those after them were corrupted at times by their inherited culture, the Persians, Egyptians and so on had earlier beliefs which they included in their writings after becoming Muslim, not that this was not rejected.

[Muezzin]

How does it not?

By heavens I don't mean the earth's sky, I speak of the universe as a whole. According to the Qur'an and hadiths, God is literally positioned above His creation and is firmly established upon His throne.

And I interpret 'literally above' as also meaning 'beyond' - the universe is spherical if anything. Therefore, if you're above a sphere, you must also be beyond it.

Ah, metaphysics, fuel for all message forums.

You might contend that the verses and hadiths may be interpreted more appropriately but that would obviously be mere conjecture and speculation without any scriptural proof.

Given that the scripture in question is open to intepretation regarding this particular point, your points are also conjecture and speculation without any scriptural proof.

Before the aqeedas were produced, or at the times of the early generations after Muhammad, nothing reveals that those people believed in a totally transcendent god. All things point to a God represented materially; a deity with natural, albeit unseen, qualities, supposedly being omnipotent and yet anthropomorphic at the same time. It only makes sense that a corporeal god cannot be called omnipotent or omniscient, nor can it be pre-existent.

And here is where I bow out before I make an even bigger fool of myself than I may have done already. This sort of thing is not my speciality, so I'll leave it to those with the requisite knowledge.

[alcurad]

Before the aqeedas were produced, or at the times of the early generations after Muhammad, nothing reveals that those people believed in a totally transcendent god. All things point to a God represented materially; a deity with natural, albeit unseen, qualities, supposedly being omnipotent and yet anthropomorphic at the same time.

and that, children, is what we call a "contradiction":),,

[Imran7]

Asalaama Aalaykum

Majority of the Scholors have said that - Someone who says that Allah is everywhere is committing Kufur. This is because, Allah has told us many times in the Quran of where he is.

He is above the heavens and the earths - and he rose above his throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty)
However Allah is here in 'essences' meaning, he has the power to see us, hear us etc but isnt 'psyically' here...

How can you say Allah is here pysically? When u go to the toilet, ur saying Allah is there? Aozubillah.

There is a hadith that describes the Kursi (footstool) of Allah. Where if the earth was a ring and then thrown into a desert, and then the desert thrown into a bigger desert, the desert compared to the ring (earth) is the sizze of the Kursi.


This belief that Allah is everywhere can effect ur belief.

Allah is above the heavens and the earths.

[Imran7]

Also, too go into too much is wrong.

To question so much like, where is Allah EXACTLY- why is he there, when was he there...

no this is wrong to say. Allah says he is above the heavens and the earths. then u accept that and dont ask anymore questions. Because your trying to question Allah?

If Allah is close to u.. in his essense, then isnt that enough for u?

(sorry if this sounds in a bad tone - its not!!)

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Imaam ash-Shaafi’ee said, "the belief that I am upon, and I saw Our Companions, the Ashaabul Hadeeth - like Maalik and Sufyaan and others - to be upon is: affirming the testimony that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And that Allaah is Over His Throne, above His Heaven (alaa Arshihi fee Samaa’ihi), He comes close to His Creation howsoever He Wills, and He Descends to the lowest heaven howsoever He Wills." [‘Awn al-Ma’bood’ (13/41), and ibn Abu Ya’la reports it in ‘Tabaqaat al-Hanaabilaa’ (1/283) with a chain of narration linked back to ash-Shaafi’ee.]

And Imaam at-Tirmidhee (d.279) said, "It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth, that there is no tashbeeh to the Attributes of Allaah, and our Lord - the Blessed and Most High - Descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: affirm these narrations, have faith in them, do not deny them or ask how. The likes of this has been related from Maalik bin Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Ibn Uyaynah and Abdullaah bin al-Mubaarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth, ‘leave them as they are without asking how.’ Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa’ah..." [ ‘Sunan at-Tirmidhee’ (3/42)]

‘Abdullaah ibn Naafi’ reports that Maalik ibn Anas said, “Allaah is above the sky And His Knowledge is in every place, not being absent from anything.” Reported by ‘Abdullaah ibn Ahmad in as-Sunnah (p.5), Abu Daawood in al-Masaa’il (p.263), al-Aujurree in ash-Sharee’ah (p.289) and al-Laalikaa’ee (1/92/2). Its isnaad is Saheeh.

‘Alee ibn al-Hasan ibn Shaqeeq reports: I asked ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak, “How are we to know our Lord?” He replied, “He is above the seventh heaven above his Throne. We do not say as the Jahmiyyah say, ‘He is here on the earth.’” So that was mentioned to Ahmad ibn Hanbal, so he said, ‘That is how it is with us.’
Reported by ad-Daarimee in ar-Radd ‘alal-Mareesee (p.24 and 103) and ar-Radd ‘alal Jahmiyyah (p.50) and ‘Abdullaah ibn Ahmad in as-Sunnah (p.7, 25, 35 and 72). Its isnaad is Saheeh.

This is the belief of our pious predecessors, upon us is to follow them and not innovate because we have been sufficed.

Imaam Maalik said when replying to the one who asked, ‘how did Allaah make Istawaa?’, "al-Istawaa is Known, and how is unknown, to have faith in it is obligatory, and to question it is an innovation." Then he said to the questioner, "I do not think except that you are an innovator" and he ordered him to be expelled. [‘al-Asmaa was Sifaat’ (pg.516).]

Therefore, in light of the above and the two previous posts, I'm going to close this thread.