Muslims: What are your reasons for god-belief?

[hatsoff]

Hi, all.

I'd like to ask the Muslims out there, why do you, personally, believe in God, and in the Qur'an? Were you just raised to believe it--indoctrinated from an early age--? Were you won over by a philosophical argument (e.g. cosmological/teleological/transcendental/etc.)? Or did you have some kind of special revelation from God?

As for me, I do not believe in any god. In fact, I'd like to ask challenging follow-up questions to my respondents, since I find the idea of a supernatural creator-deity who dictated a holy book while humans wrote it down (or memorized it) utterly ridiculous.

I look forward to reading your posts.

[Dawud_uk]

Hi, all.

I'd like to ask the Muslims out there, why do you, personally, believe in God, and in the Qur'an? Were you just raised to believe it--indoctrinated from an early age--? Were you won over by a philosophical argument (e.g. cosmological/teleological/transcendental/etc.)? Or did you have some kind of special revelation from God?

As for me, I do not believe in any god. In fact, I'd like to ask challenging follow-up questions to my respondents, since I find the idea of a supernatural creator-deity who dictated a holy book while humans wrote it down (or memorized it) utterly ridiculous.

I look forward to reading your posts.

i was actually raised as an atheist, it was my looking at science and the universe around me that made me think, question my atheism before i finally i rationally came to a conclusion in a creator.

it was only much later i become a believer in islam.

but to me it wasnt possible to look at the stars and the planets, or into a mircroscope and see cells without beginning to wonder about the beauty of it and why it all was.

but it was also my one simple question to a lecturer about the theory of evolution being a theory where i was mocked and ridiculed infront of all my fellow students that made me realise atheism and science has its orthodoxies and priests and that questioning their authority leads to attacks.

after that i lost my faith in the almost infallable nature of science and the atheist scientists that most people are indoctrinated in at school in the uk from an early age.

[hatsoff]

i was actually raised as an atheist, it was my looking at science and the universe around me that made me think, question my atheism before i finally i rationally came to a conclusion in a creator.

it was only much later i become a believer in islam.

but to me it wasnt possible to look at the stars and the planets, or into a mircroscope and see cells without beginning to wonder about the beauty of it and why it all was.

Thanks for the response.

How did you get from observing that reality includes beauty to god-belief? Was it just that you needed an answer, and Islam offered you something you could understand?

but it was also my one simple question to a lecturer about the theory of evolution being a theory where i was mocked and ridiculed infront of all my fellow students that made me realise atheism and science has its orthodoxies and priests and that questioning their authority leads to attacks.

after that i lost my faith in the almost infallable nature of science and the atheist scientists that most people are indoctrinated in at school in the uk from an early age.

This sounds strange. Why did you have "faith" in science? And what exactly was your question, over which you claim to have been mocked by your professor?

[Dawud_uk]

Thanks for the response.

How did you get from observing that reality includes beauty to god-belief? Was it just that you needed an answer, and Islam offered you something you could understand?

no, i didnt except islam until a few years after this and to be honest i looked at just about every religious before islam!

what happened was when i looked at the beauty of the creation i saw the hand of the creator.

or as it was put by the early muslims, i become a believer in the caravan as i saw the tracks of the camals.

This sounds strange. Why did you have "faith" in science? And what exactly was your question, over which you claim to have been mocked by your professor?

atheism / science has today become a belief system where the vast majority of people have faith in a set understanding of the world with no idea how such concepts came about.

they have beliefs, they have othodoxies, they even have their false prophets such as genocide-lover Darwin, and they put their trust in scientists as they used to put their trust in priests and vicars in the past to supply them with answers.

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[hatsoff]

no, i didnt except islam until a few years after this and to be honest i looked at just about every religious before islam!

what happened was when i looked at the beauty of the creation i saw the hand of the creator.

or as it was put by the early muslims, i become a believer in the caravan as i saw the tracks of the camals.

This sounds strange. Why did you have "faith" in science? And what exactly was your question, over which you claim to have been mocked by your professor?

atheism / science has today become a belief system where the vast majority of people have faith in a set understanding of the world with no idea how such concepts came about.

they have beliefs, they have othodoxies, they even have their false prophets such as genocide-lover Darwin, and they put their trust in scientists as they used to put their trust in priests and vicars in the past to supply them with answers.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but you have not answered any of my questions. I want to know why you hold the metaphysical beliefs you do. Namely, how do you get from observing beauty in the world to concluding that a supernatural disembodied mind created the universe?

[Dawud_uk]

I appreciate you taking the time to respond, but you have not answered any of my questions. I want to know why you hold the metaphysical beliefs you do. Namely, how do you get from observing beauty in the world to concluding that a supernatural disembodied mind created the universe?

look around you, look at the world, its complexity, its beauty and majesty, if you open your eyes you will see the tracks of the caravan all around you. you dont need to see the caravan itself to know it has been there, the tracks are evidence enough.

[Snowflake]

Don't think about God. Think about His Signs.

[AntiKarateKid]

In my view, athiests and theists are both operating on faith.

If was to ask you, an athiest, where the universe came from you would say the big bang. But then what came before that? Where did the cosmic laws that the big bang follows come from? Why is reality itself even here? Where did matter or the ability to produce it come from?

I hate infinite regression so Allah as the uncreated beginning suits me perfectly.

Besides, Allah is the great equalizer. The message that our acts are immortal, that nothing is forgotten and everything is judged makes me want to be a good person. I would not be a kind athiest because... I dont see the point?


Pssst. Looks for the signs in the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. To me they all ADD up to something amazing.

[AntiKarateKid]

Hi, all.

I'd like to ask the Muslims out there, why do you, personally, believe in God, and in the Qur'an? Were you just raised to believe it--indoctrinated from an early age--? Were you won over by a philosophical argument (e.g. cosmological/teleological/transcendental/etc.)? Or did you have some kind of special revelation from God?

As for me, I do not believe in any god. In fact, I'd like to ask challenging follow-up questions to my respondents, since I find the idea of a supernatural creator-deity who dictated a holy book while humans wrote it down (or memorized it) utterly ridiculous.

I look forward to reading your posts.

Hey if you read the hadiths about the Prophet pbuh and his biography, you will see that unlike Biblical narrations, the hadiths have been cross confirmed and testified to by thousands of contemporaries and enemies. The miracles all are historical.

[coddles76]

Hi, all.

I'd like to ask the Muslims out there, why do you, personally, believe in God, and in the Qur'an? Were you just raised to believe it--indoctrinated from an early age--? Were you won over by a philosophical argument (e.g. cosmological/teleological/transcendental/etc.)? Or did you have some kind of special revelation from God?

As for me, I do not believe in any god. In fact, I'd like to ask challenging follow-up questions to my respondents, since I find the idea of a supernatural creator-deity who dictated a holy book while humans wrote it down (or memorized it) utterly ridiculous.

I look forward to reading your posts.

Being a Muslim I'd be more interested in why you believe There ISN'T a creator, that way we'll save all the hassle and get straight to your arguments. Please explain to us with logical EVIDENCE why you believe there is NO creator?
Thankyou

[Silver]

Even though my parents are born muslims, I was not raised as a muslim. Religion was not something we talked about at home.
But I was always convinced that there was a God, since I was little but i was never a practicing muslim. (i only fasted in ramadan)
After I came to med school, I once denied the existence of God and I thoght that even if he did exist he is not fair & doesn't like me cos he never helps me when I need Him...and on that same day I was ran over by a speeding car and didn't really get hurt so I thought of it as a sign from God.
Before I practiced Islam I was happy in my life then when I started praying I was still happy then I stopped and it was the worst time of my life...
Then when we started learning about the different body systems, my belief in God grew stronger again. The complex way the body works has to be the work of a higher being...so now my belief in God is stronger than it ever was.

[hatsoff]

In my view, athiests and theists are both operating on faith.

How do you define faith, such that you think atheists embrace it?

If was to ask you, an athiest, where the universe came from you would say the big bang. But then what came before that? Where did the cosmic laws that the big bang follows come from? Why is reality itself even here? Where did matter or the ability to produce it come from?

I hate infinite regression so Allah as the uncreated beginning suits me perfectly.

Besides, Allah is the great equalizer. The message that our acts are immortal, that nothing is forgotten and everything is judged makes me want to be a good person. I would not be a kind athiest because... I dont see the point?

Pssst. Looks for the signs in the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. To me they all ADD up to something amazing.

I see. This seems to be the majority position. Of course, without evidence, I find all such claims to supernatural beings entirely baseless. It is perfectly acceptable to simply acknowledge our ignorance.

Thanks for the reply.

[hatsoff]

Hey if you read the hadiths about the Prophet pbuh and his biography, you will see that unlike Biblical narrations, the hadiths have been cross confirmed and testified to by thousands of contemporaries and enemies. The miracles all are historical.

Curious. This is exactly the sort of thing Christians say about their own traditions. However, I have found this to be a peripheral issue, which although it may strengthen confidence in religious dogma, does not actually constitute a core reason for belief. Please correct me if I am mistaken in that assumption.

As for the argument, I have never seen a miracle demonstrated using historical methods, nor can I imagine how it would even be possible to do so. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the only evidence we have from antiquity is, for the most part, written documents. But written reports, no matter how numerous, make for evidence too weak to stand up to the inherent improbability of miracle claims.

[hatsoff]

Being a Muslim I'd be more interested in why you believe There ISN'T a creator, that way we'll save all the hassle and get straight to your arguments. Please explain to us with logical EVIDENCE why you believe there is NO creator?
Thankyou

I have found no god hypothesis which is neither superfluous nor demonstrably false. In the case of the former, Occam's razor does away with them. In the case of the latter, the evidence depends on the particular set of claims in question. For example, many god hypotheses involve him creating all modern species more or less in their present state at or near the beginning of time; these are contradicted by the body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity.

[hatsoff]

Even though my parents are born muslims, I was not raised as a muslim. Religion was not something we talked about at home.
But I was always convinced that there was a God, since I was little but i was never a practicing muslim. (i only fasted in ramadan)
After I came to med school, I once denied the existence of God and I thoght that even if he did exist he is not fair & doesn't like me cos he never helps me when I need Him...and on that same day I was ran over by a speeding car and didn't really get hurt so I thought of it as a sign from God.
Before I practiced Islam I was happy in my life then when I started praying I was still happy then I stopped and it was the worst time of my life...
Then when we started learning about the different body systems, my belief in God grew stronger again. The complex way the body works has to be the work of a higher being...so now my belief in God is stronger than it ever was.

Your approach also seems to be quite common. You see God's hand at work in certain events of your life, as do countless others, and, if I understand you correctly, this is how you maintain your belief. Although I can see how this happens, I can't relate to it at all. I have no problems accepting chance and mystery as playing a significant role in the world.

Oh, well. To each his own. Thanks for your response.

[aamirsaab]

....
As for the argument, I have never seen a miracle demonstrated using historical methods, nor can I imagine how it would even be possible to do so. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the only evidence we have from antiquity is, for the most part, written documents. But written reports, no matter how numerous, make for evidence too weak to stand up to the inherent improbability of miracle claims.

Sorry to interupt, but look what I found!

Touch me

As for the topic:
Well, personally I think there has to be some sort of overall reason for our existance. I don't particularly like the idea of being a mathematical anomoly or statistic. Prescribing to a religion and a deity figure gives us some sort of answer as to our existence. At the very least it (religion and/or belief in God) is a security blanket/crutch. At the most, it is a way of life that people have been following and doing fine with for a very long time.

Also, if you look at the different cultures throughout time, God or a deity figure has always been around. In fact, go into any country on this planet and you will find people who believe in a higher power/deity figure. Not enough to convince you? Take a look at the amount deity followers already in existence and compare them to those who don't believe in God. You're looking at around 80% of the global population believing in a higher power.

Even those who don't subscribe to the belief in a deity, do have belief in the supernatural. All these things combined only reinforce my belief that God (Allah) does indeed exist.

[AntiKarateKid]

Curious. This is exactly the sort of thing Christians say about their own traditions. However, I have found this to be a peripheral issue, which although it may strengthen confidence in religious dogma, does not actually constitute a core reason for belief. Please correct me if I am mistaken in that assumption.

As for the argument, I have never seen a miracle demonstrated using historical methods, nor can I imagine how it would even be possible to do so. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the only evidence we have from antiquity is, for the most part, written documents. But written reports, no matter how numerous, make for evidence too weak to stand up to the inherent improbability of miracle claims.

Saying and having proof are 2 different things. The science of hadith is dedicated to authenticating the narrations. There is no Christian equivalent.


Sir, you need to know this before talking more about Islam.





It is a different entity than CHristianity. Many of the strong theological arguments against Christianity do not work against Islam. My atheist philosophy professor made himself look foolish when he tried this.

[hatsoff]

Saying and having proof are 2 different things.

Indeed.

The science of hadith is dedicated to authenticating the narrations. There is no Christian equivalent.

Sir, you need to know this before talking more about Islam.

It is a different entity than CHristianity. Many of the strong theological arguments against Christianity do not work against Islam. My atheist philosophy professor made himself look foolish when he tried this.

I'm not sure what you think I'm "trying." I have not, nor do I intend to equate Christianity with Islam. Rather, I observe that Christians and Muslims make similar claims about their own histories. This observation is not an argument against either religion; I simply find it interesting.

Interesting or not, though, citing ancient texts to support the occurrence of miracles throughout history is entirely unconvincing to me. Like I said before, that kind of evidence is far too weak to demonstrate the occurrence of such extremely improbable events as miracles.

[AntiKarateKid]

Fact is stranger than fiction my friend.

[Thinker]

Why do people believe in God?

We know that all peoples of the earth developing separately asked themselves question like, “where did people come from” and “who/how was the land created?” Knowing that it is the nature of humans to be curious, it seems reasonable that these questions came to them naturally. They all came up with answers many of them including a God like figure as the creator. They also asked a lot of other questions like why they had phenomena like thunder and eclipse of the sun and attributed that to God and in some cases went further in attributing some phenomena to God’s anger. We now know the true answers to many of those questions and know that they are not God’s anger etc., and there are many other questions we don’t have answers for or answers we can prove and some people like to believe that this is the work of God and others are happy to say we don’t know yet but proven answers will come as they always have done.

Once people accepted that there is an entity such as a God, the next questions that follow is how do I please God and what angers God. Someone then steps forward saying the had a dream or God revealed himself with the answers to those questions and that’s how a religion is formed. That happened in every place of human development and as each religion developed separately they are all different (and of course all claim to be the ‘true’ religion). Of course there are some similarities in that most religions have a place were good people and bad people go after death and a lot of the things that please God and displease God are similar but the similarities are mainly confined to keeping order e.g. don’t kill other people and don’t steal other peoples property.

Now we could say that because all these different peoples developed the concept of a God and a religion then there must be a God. The problem with that idea is that it is unlikely that a God would have revealed himself to each of these groups with a different set of answers.

So the evidence that there is a God really comes down to the fact that we don’t have proven answers for big questions like, “where did the universe come from”. Is that really a good reason to believe in God?

Clearly some people find great comfort in having a God who will take care of those who please him and simply WANT to believe because it comforts them Then there are those that believe in God for reasons given by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal in what has become known as Pascal’s Wager which basically comes down to there’s nothing to lose by believeing in God.

So that, IMHO is why people believe in God and I’m with Pascal. The interesting question is how and why people stretch the belief in God to believing that one religion out of the hundreds of others is the ‘true’ religion. Again, I believe that comes down to the natural inclination of people. It is without doubt a fact that 99.9% of people who follow a particular religion do so because they were born into it and it is a natural trait within people to defend their clan, tribe, race, team, religion, etc. There are other traits within us that expalin why certain people who were not born to a particlar religion choose a particular religion and again that is because of a trait within the individual not because the individual has discovered the ‘truth’ or found the ‘proof.’

Well, that’s my opinion which I am sure is not shared by the majority of the members here otherwise this would be a forum for agnostics.

[Tony]

raised by a spiritualist, tried wicca, spiritualism, various occult practises, christianity (for some time), atheism, and hedonism. Was christian for some time due to proof via answered prayers and physical feelings-I saw the truth was there somewhere. Then was in a position to consider Islam and the truth became apparent from talking to Muslims. When I converted at a mosque the imam touched my chest and I repeated Allahu Akbar three times, I felt something stir inside like a release of tension. Alot of the things I had witnessed through dabbling in the occult were explained along with ghosts, mood swings and perceived spiritualism. Islam is the means by which I adhere to Allah. Feel free to ask any questions. This is the absolute truth, "None but Allah is worthy of praise and Muhammed is his true messenger". When you become a Muslim there is no denying the truth, there maybe a choice to live as though you deny the truth, but the truth really has to remain in your heart. Hope you find some answer here. Peace

[Karina]

Clearly some people find great comfort in having a God who will take care of those who please him and simply WANT to believe because it comforts them Then there are those that believe in God for reasons given by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal in what has become known as Pascal’s Wager which basically comes down to there’s nothing to lose by believeing in God.

So that, IMHO is why people believe in God and I’m with Pascal. The interesting question is how and why people stretch the belief in God to believing that one religion out of the hundreds of others is the ‘true’ religion. Again, I believe that comes down to the natural inclination of people. It is without doubt a fact that 99.9% of people who follow a particular religion do so because they were born into it and it is a natural trait within people to defend their clan, tribe, race, team, religion, etc. There are other traits within us that expalin why certain people who were not born to a particlar religion choose a particular religion and again that is because of a trait within the individual not because the individual has discovered the ‘truth’ or found the ‘proof.’

Well, that’s my opinion which I am sure is not shared by the majority of the members here otherwise this would be a forum for agnostics.

Hehe, I've just written an essay on our perception of mental illness - the fine line between 'madness' and 'sanity' and Pascal's quote:
"Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness" was my introductory line! He was quite a guy.

Anywhooooo, that's by the by.

Thinker - very interesting.

I really love this topic, but I have so much to say and so many thoughts and millions of questions, it would take me forever to write them!
It all hurts my head a little sometimes, and besides, due to my line of study over the years, I can't help looking at everything Psychologically - even the reasons behind why people 'believe'.

Ok sorry for my ramblings. Carry on............... :D

[Tony]

Your qoute wisest is he who knows he knows not. Should be wisest is he who knows Allah, intellect is worthless in the hellfire. Peace

[Karina]

Your qoute wisest is he who knows he knows not. Should be wisest is he who knows Allah, intellect is worthless in the hellfire. Peace

I love you too ! :D

[Tony]

Hehehe:D Peace. have you read sophies world bu jostein gaardener

[Woodrow]

I see you looking for 2 different things in your question

"Re: Muslims: What are your reasons for god-belief?"

1. being the REASON for us believing in God(swt). Not proof, verification etc, but personal opinion and explanation of our need.

For that my answer is short. My personal reason for believing in God(swt) is because it is on the path to avoid hellfire.


2. I see the second deeper meaning of your question as being "What proof/evidence do I have of God's existence.

a. The "big Bang Theory" if verified this is verification of an instant creation of matter, well within the realm of how I believe Allaah(swt) created the universe. One moment nothing, then in the moment of a single thought all of creation is formed.

b. The laws of conservation of matter and energy. Neither can be created nor destroyed through normal physical laws.

since matter and energy did not exist in the physical plane prior to the moment of creation, it is evidence the physical world was created by a force independent of the physical realm of existence.

The Newtonian laws of Motion. A stationary object will remain stationary unless acted upon by an outside force. We know the universe is expanding and in movement. Whatever initiated that movement is not part of the physical world.

c. The concept of life and death. From a physiological view I can not find any evidence that life and death are the result of inter molecular activity

d. revelation of a creator through the Prophets(PBUH)

[coddles76]

I have found no god hypothesis which is neither superfluous nor demonstrably false. In the case of the former, Occam's razor does away with them. In the case of the latter, the evidence depends on the particular set of claims in question. For example, many god hypotheses involve him creating all modern species more or less in their present state at or near the beginning of time; these are contradicted by the body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity.

Interesting Answer.
Ok, since the evidence depends particular set of claims we'll just concentrate on one singular claim, so I ask just give us evidence on the current creation of humankind. How were humans created?

[Thinker]

Interesting Answer.
I ask just give us evidence on the current creation of humankind. How were humans created?

Are you suggesting that because we don’t have proven answers to certain questions that in itself is evidence that there is a God? Are you suggesting that because we can’t answer a particular question now that we will never have answers for that question? If you are you are deluding yourself.

[wth1257]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Why?

[Karina]

Hehehe:D Peace. have you read sophies world bu jostein gaardener

Yes I have actually, my tutor at college gave it to me to read a couple of years ago - a good intro to philosophy for novices like me! Would love to read more philosophy stuff, but too little time with exams coming up. :)

[coddles76]

Are you suggesting that because we don’t have proven answers to certain questions that in itself is evidence that there is a God? Are you suggesting that because we can’t answer a particular question now that we will never have answers for that question? If you are you are deluding yourself.

I'm saying that everything has a reason and quite enough evidence to back up that reason, for the logical thinking mind that is. That means that Gods creation has a reason and has MORE than enough evidence, Its just are duty to search for it.

[hatsoff]

I'm saying that everything has a reason and quite enough evidence to back up that reason, for the logical thinking mind that is. That means that Gods creation has a reason and has MORE than enough evidence, Its just are duty to search for it.

To what evidence are you referring? I have never seen any good evidence for the existence of a disembodied mind which created the universe with supernatural powers.

[Woodrow]

To what evidence are you referring? I have never seen any good evidence for the existence of a disembodied mind which created the universe with supernatural powers.

Does that mean you believe in a disembodied mindless void without direction or intelligence or viability, that accidentally created the universe using an uncontrolled, unverifiable, invisible, undetectable force?

[coddles76]

To what evidence are you referring? I have never seen any good evidence for the existence of a disembodied mind which created the universe with supernatural powers.

You have already made that point. I would just like you to answer the question I have already stated with appropriate evidence. How was man created? Thats the evidence I would love you to refer to and answer just so we all know

[hatsoff]

You have already made that point. I would just like you to answer the question I have already stated with appropriate evidence. How was man created? Thats the evidence I would love you to refer to and answer just so we all know

Are you saying that you agree there is no good evidence for the existence of God? If not, then I invite you to present what you think it is.

As for your question, man evolved from lower primates; he was not "created." This is biological evolution, and it is supported by a vast body of evidence. If you have never taken an introductory biology survey, you can peruse the evidence for this on internet sources such as the talk.origins archive.

[hatsoff]

Does that mean you believe in a disembodied mindless void without direction or intelligence or viability, that accidentally created the universe using an uncontrolled, unverifiable, invisible, undetectable force?

No. I have no evidence regarding specific hypotheses on the origin of spacetime itself. But I do know that the physical universe exists. Postulating the existence of other realities, e.g. God, is an amusing exercise, but does not get us anywhere.

[coddles76]

Are you saying that you agree there is no good evidence for the existence of God? If not, then I invite you to present what you think it is.

As for your question, man evolved from lower primates; he was not "created." This is biological evolution, and it is supported by a vast body of evidence. If you have never taken an introductory biology survey, you can peruse the evidence for this on internet sources such as the talk.origins archive.

Just to establish a correction in your response, I haven't agreed or said anything, what I have said and interested in is your evidence plus theory behind there NOT being a creator.
Is it fair to ask how these lower primates were formed?

[hatsoff]

Just to establish a correction in your response, I haven't agreed or said anything, what I have said and interested in is your evidence plus theory behind there NOT being a creator.
Is it fair to ask how these lower primates were formed?

Then I repeat my invitation to share with me this evidence you think you have for the existence of your supernatural creator-deity.

As for your question, I find it hard to believe that you are not already at least dimly aware of my answer: lower primates evolved from even earlier life forms. So, why then are you asking? I imagine you want me to admit that I don't know something or other regarding the origin of life. Very well. We now know that all biodiversity shares a common ancestor. How that ancestor itself evolved is somewhat of a mystery, though several promising hypotheses have been proposed, e.g. the iron-sulfur world theory.

[coddles76]

Then I repeat my invitation to share with me this evidence you think you have for the existence of your supernatural creator-deity.

As for your question, I find it hard to believe that you are not already at least dimly aware of my answer: lower primates evolved from even earlier life forms. So, why then are you asking? I imagine you want me to admit that I don't know something or other regarding the origin of life. Very well. We now know that all biodiversity shares a common ancestor. How that ancestor itself evolved is somewhat of a mystery, though several promising hypotheses have been proposed, e.g. the iron-sulfur world theory.

The Holy Quran is the only required evidence and the miracle of all miracles!!!

No need for me to ask, you have already put yourself into that predicament and thanks for your admittance. You see Muslims don't have this problem of mystery. Everything is very clear and precise and has no room for mysteries. This is what makes Islam so appealing and beautiful and solves all mind tangles that the human experiences throughout life. Our creator has already given us the rules and tools to succeed in life with a guarantee of success.
People like yourself will always have mysteries flowing through your mind and only the acceptance of Allah SWT will free yourself of this mystery web. So I wish you all the best luck in solving your mysteries and pray that one day you will free yourself from this tangle.

[Woodrow]

No. I have no evidence regarding specific hypotheses on the origin of spacetime itself. But I do know that the physical universe exists. Postulating the existence of other realities, e.g. God, is an amusing exercise, but does not get us anywhere.

How does that compare with:

No. I have no evidence regarding specific hypotheses on the origin of spacetime itself. But I do know that the physical universe exists. Postulating the existence of other realities, e.g. spontaneous creation, is an amusing exercise, but does not get us anywhere.

I can recall a time when Einstein speculated that matter was simply a warp or disruption in the space-time continuum and gravity was a state of being and not a force.

He presented some very strong evidence to validate his views. Yet, looking back it seems he had forgotten his own words "If you are faced with multiple explanations, the simplest one is usually the correct one."

The existence of God(swt) seems to be the simplest explanation possible. I wonder why Einstein forgot that?

[hatsoff]

How does that compare with:

Not very well. Like I said, I do not hold to any particular origin model for spacetime, nor do I even presuppose it is possible for the human brain to conceive of such a thing.

I can recall a time when Einstein speculated that matter was simply a warp or disruption in the space-time continuum and gravity was a state of being and not a force.

He presented some very strong evidence to validate his views. Yet, looking back it seems he had forgotten his own words "If you are faced with multiple explanations, the simplest one is usually the correct one."

The existence of God(swt) seems to be the simplest explanation possible. I wonder why Einstein forgot that?

How can you say that God is a simple explanation? We have invented a simple word for it--"God"--but what that word refers to is anything but simple! You're talking about a super-being with omnipotence, omniscience, anthropomorphic emotion, a sense of justice, and empathy for every human being, who continually listens to the private thoughts of every last creature on earth, and who for some reason cares deeply about our sexual habits. This is an enormous pile-up of ad-hoc assumptions with absolutely no predictive power. In short, it is no explanation at all.

[hatsoff]

The Holy Quran is the only required evidence and the miracle of all miracles!!!

Is this not what the Qur'an itself teaches--that its own beauty somehow proves its alleged divine origin--? So, this is what all Muslims are supposed to believe, yes?

I'm sorry, but from what I've read of your holy book, I cannot take this claim seriously. First of all, the idea that beauty can somehow prove divine origin is ridiculous in and of itself; what prevents humans from creating beauty of a certain caliber? Second, I do not find the Qur'an to be beautiful; quite the contrary, actually. And that's one of the reasons I've resisted reading very much of it in any one sitting.

No need for me to ask, you have already put yourself into that predicament and thanks for your admittance. You see Muslims don't have this problem of mystery. Everything is very clear and precise and has no room for mysteries. This is what makes Islam so appealing and beautiful and solves all mind tangles that the human experiences throughout life. Our creator has already given us the rules and tools to succeed in life with a guarantee of success.
People like yourself will always have mysteries flowing through your mind and only the acceptance of Allah SWT will free yourself of this mystery web. So I wish you all the best luck in solving your mysteries and pray that one day you will free yourself from this tangle.

I think it's strange that you find mystery so intolerable. In fact, mystery is preferable to false beliefs. If Islamic traditions offer you answers to every question you care to ask (which is hardly the case, by the way), but they are more often than not the wrong answers, how does that help you?

[coddles76]

Is this not what the Qur'an itself teaches--that its own beauty somehow proves its alleged divine origin--? So, this is what all Muslims are supposed to believe, yes?
I'm sorry, but from what I've read of your holy book, I cannot take this claim seriously. First of all, the idea that beauty can somehow prove divine origin is ridiculous in and of itself; what prevents humans from creating beauty of a certain caliber? Second, I do not find the Qur'an to be beautiful; quite the contrary, actually. And that's one of the reasons I've resisted reading very much of it in any one sitting

The holy Quran is a book of law and guidance which holds the keys to succes in battling through the challenges of life. It has many miraculous answers to many subjects including science and that is what is so BEAUTIFUL about it.

I think it's strange that you find mystery so intolerable. In fact, mystery is preferable to false beliefs. If Islamic traditions offer you answers to every question you care to ask (which is hardly the case, by the way), but they are more often than not the wrong answers, how does that help you?

Its only wrong when your mind fails to see reasoning and truth behind the logic so I can understand why you believe its false. I on the other hand find the answers very true and logical so have every confidence in the TRUTH.

[Woodrow]

Not very well. Like I said, I do not hold to any particular origin model for spacetime, nor do I even presuppose it is possible for the human brain to conceive of such a thing.

Perhaps you do not hold to any particular origin model, but it appears you have ruled out the possibility it is the creation of a Supreme Being.

How can you say that God is a simple explanation? We have invented a simple word for it--"God"--but what that word refers to is anything but simple! You're talking about a super-being with omnipotence, omniscience, anthropomorphic emotion, a sense of justice, and empathy for every human being, who continually listens to the private thoughts of every last creature on earth, and who for some reason cares deeply about our sexual habits. This is an enormous pile-up of ad-hoc assumptions with absolutely no predictive power. In short, it is no explanation at all.

While it may be impossible to explain how God(swt) can exist. His creating the world would be a very simple explanation as to how the material universe came into existence.

Sort of like if you have a pet gold fish. I doubt the Gold fish could explain how you exist, but accepting your existence would be a very simple explanation as to how the water in the bowl gets changed.

[Khalil_Allah]

I was atheist and I was straight up interested in God, like you. I wondered why all these christians around me could just believe in Jesus and God when there was no proof. You got all these old stories and whatnot and just what does it matter in 2009?

But I also found that some of the realest and most virtuous people had this unwavering faith in God. People I really respected for intelligence and character, and somehow they bought into this whole God thing.

At a confused point in my life, one of these people advised me to just go talk to God and go seek God, and He won't let me down. I did and things happened that were proof enough for me that God had heard me. Since then, God has never let me down when I needed it. Or, for you non-believers, since then, whenever I have went to God for any reason, the world and the things and people in it have acted and arranged themselves in a way that gave me clarity and wisdom on the issue.

The doctrine, the belief in the Qur'an and Islam, came when I tried to fit my new belief in God into some sort of conceptual framework. I studied various religions and when I tried to apply the doctrine in my life, I came into contradictions with my experiences with God. With Islam, I never found contradictions that could not be easily resolved.

[Tony]

No. I have no evidence regarding specific hypotheses on the origin of spacetime itself. But I do know that the physical universe exists. Postulating the existence of other realities, e.g. God, is an amusing exercise, but does not get us anywhere.

how do you know this, what is it that makes you think there is a physical universe. What proof can you offer that there is any connection between the make up of atoms, what binding force do you beleive holds an unstable and potentially volatile mix of chemicals in order. What happened that made these gases and chemicals develop conscious ability. Or is it that you beleive what someone else tells you and that you personally have no proof of anything other than the brain is a computer that holds a chaotic world in shaky focus. We beleive that Allah created all, holds all in balance and breathed the spark of life into his creation. Now really which is more likely to be the truth and the least far fetched. Peace:D

[hatsoff]

how do you know this, what is it that makes you think there is a physical universe. What proof can you offer that there is any connection between the make up of atoms, what binding force do you beleive holds an unstable and potentially volatile mix of chemicals in order. What happened that made these gases and chemicals develop conscious ability. Or is it that you beleive what someone else tells you and that you personally have no proof of anything other than the brain is a computer that holds a chaotic world in shaky focus.

I will answer your question, but I must first ask, what relevance does it have? Suppose we could not justify a conclusion that the universe exists. So what? How does that demonstrate the existence of God?

Anyway, here is the answer: The conclusion that the universe exists is well-supported by our sense data, insofar as the assumption of the conclusion leads to correctly-predicted sense experience.

We beleive that Allah created all, holds all in balance and breathed the spark of life into his creation. Now really which is more likely to be the truth and the least far fetched. Peace:D

I know that you believe it, and I thank you for the affirmation. However, I'm more interested in how you have come to conclude that it is so likely.

[Tony]

it is the same for us both, my point was to point out that my beleif comes from logic process too.

[Hamayun]

Then I repeat my invitation to share with me this evidence you think you have for the existence of your supernatural creator-deity.

Since you are convinced God does not exist could you kindly share with us your evidence for the non-existence of a supernatural creator-deity.

Note: A popular theory doesn't pass as evidence.

Peace

[Yanal]

:sl:
Here are my reasons as a Muslim to believe in All worthy Allah:
The Quran
The prophets
Hadiths
And the truthness of Islam.

[islamlover_girl]

Hello Mr Hatsoff ,
so the question is why we belive in Allah?

I think u may have some answeres in this link
http://www.islamreligion.com/category/39/

[transition?]

I loved everything I learned about Islam.

I accepted the concept of the soul because it makes sense to why we have desires that we follow but can be so irrational at times. Certain things that we associate with happiness is predetermined by our genes, our innate nature. What's the evolutionary significance of wanting something and having it so much that it's unhealthy. Why are we programmed to love sugar and fatty foods to the point we're sick. ? Why are we programmed to love doing things all the time and not just in healthy times. Why do so many people enjoy things that are detrimental like procrastination and lyignaround or having sex 24/7. Because we have souls that have programmed to be inclined to specific desires. If it was human evolution, genes for laziness, procrastination and lack of self control would be wiped.

the other day I was wondering abt nature and I thought is there any imperfection in nature? You
know those crazy math profesors who say the unverse is just mathematical patterns. I believe in
that and the fact that everything runs so smoothly doesn't seem random. The order in life doesn't
seem like a coincident. Even when i think of diseases or genetic mutations, thy aren't accidents or
mistakes - they are specific processes. Things seem beyond us because we can't predict them but
they are so calculated. Even in a chemcal reaction, it's supposedly chance that makes certain
molecules rearrange at a point when they are so oriented. Things don't seem random, by chance.




But the biggest confirmation was the taqwa ( i think it's called), when you sincerely and seriously believe in tawhid, or the oneness of Allah (swt) and try to acheive taqwa, constant remembrance of Allah by knowing you want to Obey Allah (swt) over any desire- it is this feeling so great, so lifting , so right, so peaceful.. I'm the biggest and worrisome skeptic, that everything changed after my 1st moment like that.

If you really want to learn anything from this thread it's to know that that feeling is the reason most believe in God, more over science.
That feeling is what you seriously want to find with the most sincerity that will reallly allow you to know why God exists.

Why do we care about happiness

[hatsoff]

Since you are convinced God does not exist could you kindly share with us your evidence for the non-existence of a supernatural creator-deity.

Note: A popular theory doesn't pass as evidence.

Which deity would you like me to disprove? The God of Islam, who created the human species in more or less its modern form, is contradicted by the large body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity. Certain formulations of the Trinitarian God are disproved logically by their own internal inconsistencies.

Most gods are simply unverifiable, fantastic constructs, with no good evidence for or against them. These we dismiss via Occam's razor.

[Vito]

I think the evolution thread would be a good place to check out concerning that, which I assume you haven't yet. I'll try to find it for you in a minute.

Here you go: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rspective.html

[Woodrow]

Which deity would you like me to disprove? The God of Islam, who created the human species in more or less its modern form, is contradicted by the large body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity. Certain formulations of the Trinitarian God are disproved logically by their own internal inconsistencies.

Most gods are simply unverifiable, fantastic constructs, with no good evidence for or against them. These we dismiss via Occam's razor.

You seem to have the idea that matter popping out of nowhere makes more sense then believing it was created by a being who exists outside the physical world.

Us theists believe that the idea of creation by a being makes more logical sense then believing it popped out of nowhere.

Your concept is just as ridiculous to us as our concept is to you.

[hatsoff]

You seem to have the idea that matter popping out of nowhere makes more sense then believing it was created by a being who exists outside the physical world.

Us theists believe that the idea of creation by a being makes more logical sense then believing it popped out of nowhere.

Your concept is just as ridiculous to us as our concept is to you.

Except it is not my concept. I do not believe that the universe "popped out of nowhere." I hope you don't think that is the only alternative to theism.

The universe, according to general relativity, has always existed--that is, the universe exists at any point in the time domain. The time domain itself may or may not extend infinitely in both directions. The explanation for the hypothetical existence of a value inf{t} (where t denotes time) is not known. It could be that there exist other spacial-temporal dimensions which give rise to daughter dimensions, of which ours is one such. We just don't know.

Incidentally, I find the hypothesis most resembling your "popping out of nowhere" caricature--that our universe just happened to exist, independent of any ontologically prior reality--considerably less fantastic than that it was created by an anthropomorphic spirit being using his supposed super-powers.

[Woodrow]

Except it is not my concept. I do not believe that the universe "popped out of nowhere." I hope you don't think that is the only alternative to theism.

The universe, according to general relativity, has always existed--that is, the universe exists at any point in the time domain. The time domain itself may or may not extend infinitely in both directions. The explanation for the hypothetical existence of a value inf{t} (where t denotes time) is not known. It could be that there exist other spacial-temporal dimensions which give rise to daughter dimensions, of which ours is one such. We just don't know.

I am also a fan of Dr. Einstein and find his General Theory to be quite interesting.

However, I think the area that has come under disagreement is that his concept of warped space'continuum as the basis for the formation of matter, ends up being matter popped out of nowhere.

Incidentally, I find the hypothesis most resembling your "popping out of nowhere" caricature--that our universe just happened to exist, independent of any ontologically prior reality--considerably less fantastic than that it was created by an anthropomorphic spirit being using his supposed super-powers.

This basically breaks down to being our own personal opinions. Probably all we can do is agree to disagree peacefully

[Hamayun]

Which deity would you like me to disprove? The God of Islam, who created the human species in more or less its modern form, is contradicted by the large body of evidence supporting common descent of biodiversity. Certain formulations of the Trinitarian God are disproved logically by their own internal inconsistencies.

Most gods are simply unverifiable, fantastic constructs, with no good evidence for or against them. These we dismiss via Occam's razor.

Ummm... how does that answer anything??? :?

I am not asking you to disprove a specific deity...

All I am asking for is evidence that the universe with all its complexity, majesty, splendour and delicate balance was not created.

[hatsoff]

Ummm... how does that answer anything??? :?

I am not asking you to disprove a specific deity...

All I am asking for is evidence that the universe with all its complexity, majesty, splendour and delicate balance was not created.

I answered your previous question. Now I will answer your latest:

For an intelligent being to create spacetime, then he must have existed ontologically prior to it. But the only intelligent agents we have ever observed depend directly on chemical operations in a material brain. So, it would be impossible for such an intelligence to create spacetime. You could postulate the existence of a disembodied mind which operates on a nonmaterial substrate, but we have no good evidence at all for such an entity. So we dismiss that alternative hypothesis via Occam's razor.

There you are.

[hatsoff]

I am also a fan of Dr. Einstein and find his General Theory to be quite interesting.

However, I think the area that has come under disagreement is that his concept of warped space'continuum as the basis for the formation of matter, ends up being matter popped out of nowhere.

Nothing of the sort is implied by general relativity. I have no idea where you picked up that misinformation.

This basically breaks down to being our own personal opinions. Probably all we can do is agree to disagree peacefully

It's not a matter of opinion at all. Truth is objectively determined by real states of affairs. And the truth, here, is that we have no good evidence for the existence of a disembodied mind who created the universe with his supernatural powers.

[Hamayun]

I answered your previous question. Now I will answer your latest:

For an intelligent being to create spacetime, then he must have existed ontologically prior to it. But the only intelligent agents we have ever observed depend directly on chemical operations in a material brain. So, it would be impossible for such an intelligence to create spacetime. You could postulate the existence of a disembodied mind which operates on a nonmaterial substrate, but we have no good evidence at all for such an entity. So we dismiss that alternative hypothesis via Occam's razor.

There you are.

Who said anything about a "being"? If god was an organism like us then he wouldn't be God.

God is not a physical entity like you think.

In 42:11 and 6:103 we see that the Qur'an describes God as the unique, unchanging and eternal creator: "there is nothing like him"; and "no vision can grasp him" (6:103). As such, he is beyond representation, and humans are incapable of signifying him by any anthropomorphic image.

If you are comfortable with the idea that "The universe has always existed" then how can you dismiss "God has always existed"?

Logic is a funny thing...

The idea of a creator is absurd to you...

but the idea of the universe existing in all its glory with un-imaginable complexity existing without a creator is far more absurd to me.

And finally...

You ask us for evidence for God's existence yet you have no evidence to offer to support your theory of his non-existence.

Peace