Was Muhammad (P.B.U.H) a True Prophet?

[islamlover_girl]

Among these proofs:

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he (P.B.U.H) was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he (P.B.U.H) had no prior knowledge of religion or any previously sent Message. He (P.B.U.H) remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad (P.B.U.H) with the Quran that we now have between our hands. This Quran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he (P.B.U.H) witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses (P.B.U.H) and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus (P.B.U.H). Never the less, neither the Jews nor the Christians believed anything that he (P.B.U.H) said.



2. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad (P.B.U.H) foretold, as if he (P.B.U.H) was reading the future from an open book.



3. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also conveyed an Arabic Quran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Quran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Quran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Quran. Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty and splendor of this Glorious Quran.



4. The life history of this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he (P.B.U.H) was ever mindful and fearful of Allaah.



5. Allaah instilled great love for Muhammad (P.B.U.H) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him (P.B.U.H). This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him (P.B.U.H). Till today, those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him (P.B.U.H) even if but once.



6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who is the most influential human in history. Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the believers in him will greet him and ask Allaah to bless him (P.B.U.H) and exalt his status. They do such with full hearts and true love for him (P.B.U.H).



7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those who believe in him (P.B.U.H). Those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H)sleep in the manner he (P.B.U.H) slept; purify themselves (through ablution and ritual washing) in the manner he (P.B.U.H) purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.



Indeed in all aspects of their lives, the believers in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) adhere to the teachings he (P.B.U.H) spread among them and the path that he traveled upon during his life. During every generation, from his day till our time, the believers in this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) have fully adhered to his teachings. With some, this has reached the degree that they desire to follow and adhere to the Prophet's way in his (P.B.U.H) personal matters regarding which Allaah has not sought of them to adhere to in worship. For example, some will only eat those specific foods or only wear those specific garments that the Messenger (P.B.U.H) liked.



Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) repeat those praises of Allaah, special prayers, and invocations that he (P.B.U.H) would say during each of his actions during day and night, like: what he (P.B.U.H) would say when he greeted people, upon entering and leaving the house, entering and leaving the mosque, entering and leaving the bathroom, going to sleep and awaking from sleep, observing the new crescent, observing the new fruit on trees, eating, drinking, dressing, riding, traveling and returning from travel, etc.



Moreover, all those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) fully perform - even to the minute detail - every act of worship, like prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage, as this Noble Messenger (P.B.U.H) taught and as he (P.B.U.H) himself performed. All of this allows those who believe in him (P.B.U.H) to live their lives in all aspects with this Noble Messenger (P.B.U.H) as their example, as if he (P.B.U.H) was standing before them, for them to follow in all their doings.



8. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters, small and large alike, as has this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H).



9. Since his days, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) has been followed by individuals from all nations, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H)after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad (P.B.U.H) out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.



Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (P.B.U.H) chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. People who have followed this Prophet (P.B.U.H) have not done so to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following him. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion. All of this clearly indicates, to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet (P.B.U.H) was truly and really Allaah's messenger and that he (P.B.U.H) was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke about Allaah without knowledge.



9. With all this, Muhammad (P.B.U.H) came with a great religion in its creedal and legal make-up. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) described Allaah with qualities of complete perfection, and at the same time in a manner that is free of ascribing to Him any imperfection. Neither the philosophers or the wise could ever describe Allaah like such. Indeed it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability and greatness Who has subdued the creation, Who has encompassed everything in the universe, small or large, and Who possesses such perfect mercy. Nor is it in the ability of any human being to place a perfect law based upon justice, equality, mercy and objectivity for all human activity on earth like the laws that Muhammad (P.B.U.H) conveyed to all spheres of human activity - like buying and selling, marriage and divorce, renting, testimony, custody, and all other contracts that are necessary to uphold life and civilization on earth.



10. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom, morals, good manners, and nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (P.B.U.H) brought. In a full and complete manner, Muhammad (P.B.U.H) spread a teaching regarding character and manners toward one's parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching. All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger (P.B.U.H) did not bring any of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he (P.B.U.H) received from The One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture and perfection.

12. The legal and creedal make-up of the religion that the Messenger Muhammad (P.B.U.H) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He Who created the heavens and the earth is The One Who sent down this great law and upright religion. The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad (P.B.U.H) is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and the earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allaah's law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

[Thinker]

Proofs are obtained from deductive reasoning, rather than from inductive or empirical arguments. They start from a point which is an absolute unchallengeable certainty e.g. ‘any two points can be connected by a straight line’ (read Euclids Elements). An unproved proposition that is believed to be true is known as a conjecture. What you state above as proof is at best conjecture and at worst wishful thinking.

[islamlover_girl]

First thank u for replying mr Thinker

I ll add here some proofs that Mohammed is a True Prophet

as u know Mohammed conveyed the Quran

and here is some proofes that Quran is true

1-Earth’s Seven Layers

When scientists started to probe the valleys of Earth and
in order to know its structure and constituents, they found that tales and myths that dominated in the earlier centuries have no scientific basis. After scientists discovered that the earth is egg-shaped , they suggested that the core of this ball has a nucleus, and its shell is a very thin crust when compared to the Earth’s size, and between these two layers, there is a third, known as the mantle . this was the knowledge of the early scientists.

Development of Scientific Facts

The Three Layer -Theory did not last for so long due to recent discoveries in Geology. Recent measurements and experiments showed that the material comprising the nucleus of the Earth is under very high pressure, three million times more than that on the surface of the Earth.

Under such pressure, matter transforms into solid state, this in turn makes Earth’s core very solid,This core is surrounded by a liquid layer of very high temperature. This means that there are two layers in Earth’s core and not one.Two layers; one solid in the center surrounded by another liquid layer.

Thereafter measuring devices advanced and presented to scientists a clear distinction among Earth’s inner layers. If we were to descend under the earth’s crust we would find another layer of very hot stones , which is the stone cover or wrap. After that come three other distinct layers of varying density, pressure and temperature.

Therefore scientists found themselves classifying the layers of Earth into seven layers, not more. The figure shows these layers with their dimensions (some are out of scale) according to what scientists have recently found using methods like earthquake measuring devices and the study of Earth’s magnetic field, among other techniques. These studies and discoveries are being taught to these scientists’ students in universities.

Scientists have found that the atom is also comprised of seven layers or levels, and this proves the uniformity of creation, where Earth has seven layers and atoms have seven layers as well. This creation therefore is ruled by only one creator.

Earth’s seven layers vary greatly in structure, density, temperature and material. Therefore one cannot consider that Earth has only one layer as people anciently thought. Here we find that the idea of the Earth having layers is fairly recent and wasn’t presented or brought forward at the time when the Quran was being revealed. Those discoveries are what the Twenty First century -scientists tell us, What then does the book of Allah tell us?

In the Company of the Noble Quran

The Holy Quran, God's word , talks to us about the seven Heavens and also seven layers of Earth in the Quranic verses:

God says in the Holy Quran in this regard what means “Who has created the seven heavens one above another…” [Al-Mulk 3]

God says in the Holy Quran in this regard what means “It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven).” [Attalaq 12

The first verse has specified two traits for the heavens which are: their number which is seven, their organization, which is into layers , one on the of top of the other and this is according to the Quranic interpretation books and Arabic language dictionaries. As for the second verse, it confirms that Earth is similar to the Heavens from the part of the verse that says “…and of the earth the like thereof”, where since the Heavens are layers, then Earth is comprised of layers as well, and since the Heavens are seven, therefore Earth’s layers are seven as well.

Here we need to pause and elaborate on Allah’s choice of words in the word: “Tibaqa” – which means layers one on top of another, and this is what scientists have recently discovered that Earth is comprised of layers, this in turn leads us to conclude that Al-Qur`an defined Earth’s shape, of layers, and it (Al-Quran) has also specified the number of these layers, seven. Henceforth Al-Qur`an chose a very specific word to describe Earth’s composition, so Al-Qur`an preceded the Twenty First Century scientists in mentioning Earths facts fourteen centuries ago. Isn’t this an overwhelming Quranic miracle?

If we contemplate 0n the Noble Prophet’s (peace and blessings be upon him) Hadeeth (sayings), we find one Hadeeth that confirms this fact of Earth’s seven overlapping layers. Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him) says: “whomever oppressed someone a hand span’s distance from the Earth, gets surrounded by seven overlapping layers”[Bukhari 2321], the Hadeeth is telling us that Allah will punish those who oppress in Earth by being encircled and surrounded by seven Earthly layers. This definition for the word “Tawaqa” that was used in the Hadeeth is as found in Arabic Language Dictionaries.

The question here is: Isn’t this a great prophetic miracle? doesn’t this Hadeeth specify the number of Earth’s layers which are seven, and also mentions their nature of being overlapped or surrounding each other?From the word encircled used in the Hadeeth, we can deduce circular shapes and in three dimensions we can deduce spherical shapes.

Henceforth The Noble Qur’an and Prophetic Sunnah (traditions of the Prophet) preceded modern science to this scientific fact. In addition Al-Qur’an gave us the precise naming for the structure of Earth using the word “Tibaqa” or layers, and it has given us the accurate number for these layers which is seven, while scientists spent long years and changed their theories several times to come up with scientific theories previously mentioned in The Quran and Sunnah. Glory be to Allah the Greatest who said in his exalted book: “And on the earth are signs for those who have Faith with certainty, And also in your ownselves. Will you not then see?” [Athariyat, 20,21]

[islamlover_girl]

2- What does the Holy Quran say about black holes


people used to reject prophets unless they bring forth seen miracles . Some believed and other went on in their stubbornness . Now after the demise of the prophets , people are in need to know if there is God or not ; Darwinism and evolution produced atheism and secularism , a world wide sweeping dogma that have thrown humanity back in the ages of darkness . Because of the distortion of Christianity and Judaism, these religions became so wavering and shaky leaving the concept of theism in jeopardy .

Islam , being the last revealed religion , is standing now in the face of such unsubstantiated claims of atheism . Most of the findings of the science that science brags about are mentioned in the Holy Quran , that was revealed more than 1400 years ago.

Allah says in the Holy Quran what means " "Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? "

Among the many scientific miracles that are mentioned in the Holy Quran is the black hole "

The holy Quran mentions the black holes in the following holy verse by its very specific characteristics ; these are :

(1)They are running stars.

(2)They are veiled or receded .

(3)They are sweeping stars .

let's read the following verse from the holy Quran first before reading what astrophysics says about the black holes .

God says in the holy Quran what means [So verily, I swear by the stars that are veiled . And by the (sweeping ) stars that move swiftly and hide themselves. And by the night as it departs; And by the dawn as it brightens; Verily, this is the Word (this Qur'an brought by) a most honorable messenger [Jibril (Gabriel), from Allah to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)].] (At-Takwir: 15-19)

It is well known that stars change their nature as they age till they die , among the endpoints of stars is the black hole . God says in the Holy Quran what means" And call not, besides God, on another god. there is no god but He. Everything (that exists) will perish except His own Face. to Him belongs the Command, and to Him will ye (All do Him will ye (all) be brought back. "( Al-Kasas :88)




During the life cycle of stars , stars change from one entity to another , this change takes millions of years . One of these is the black hole . The black hole is fearful .

What kinds of black holes are there?

Scientists have identified three kinds of black holes – small, medium, and large.

(1)The small one or low-mass black holes stellar or galactic black holes

These low-mass black holes form from collapsed stars that were once 100 times as massive as our Sun .

When such a massive star runs out of energy, it throws off its outer shell and is left with a core that is still 15 times as massive as the Sun

Scientists believe that our Milky Way Galaxy contains tens of thousands of these black holes, hence the name "galactic" black hole.

(2) Super massive black holes reside in the center of galaxies. Some scientists speculate that most galaxies, including our own, harbor a super massive black hole

(3) The mid-size black holes .

There are two main processes constantly going on in massive stars: nuclear fusion (which tends to blow the star's hydrogen outward from the star's center) and gravitation (which tends to pull all hydrogen back in the direction it had come). These two processes balance one another until all the star's hydrogen is exhausted, allowing gravitation to take over.

Once gravitation dominates, the star becomes unstable and starts to collapse. Once the star starts to collapse, it does not stop, and the star (and ultimately its atoms ) will cave inward upon itself, resulting in the formation of a black hool (Hewitt 186).

A supermassive black hole is a black hole with a mass of an order of magnitude between 105 and 1010 (hundreds of thousands and tens of billions) of solar masses . It is currently thought that most, if not all galaxies , including the Milky Way , contain supermassive black holes at their galactic centers.

Supermassive black holes have some interesting properties which distinguish them from relatively low-mass cousins , but they remain black hole sucking what fall a prey



X-Rays Indicate Star Ripped Up by Black Hole




Why are black holes black?
In order for a rocket to leave the surface of Earth, it must travel faster than 25,000 miles per hour (7 miles per second). This is called escape velocity. If the rocket has a speed less than the escape velocity of an object, the object's gravity will pull it back down. The escape velocity of a black hole is greater then 186,000 miles per second. That means a rocket would have to travel faster than 186,000 miles per second in order to leave the black hole. The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second, so light doesn't travel fast enough to leave the black hole, hence it is black.

Institute's Digitized Sky Survey has played an important supporting role in helping radio and X-ray astronomers discover an ancient black hole speeding through the Sun's galactic neighborhood. The rogue black hole is devouring a small companion star as the pair travels in an eccentric orbit looping to the outer reaches of our Milky Way galaxy.


It is believed that the black hole is the remnant of a massive star that that lived out its brief life billions of years ago and later was gravitationally kicked from its home star cluster to wander the Galaxy with its companion
Most of the stars in our Milky Way galaxy are within a thin disk, called the plane of the Galaxy. However, there also are globular clusters, each containing hundreds of thousands of the oldest stars in the Galaxy, which orbit the Galaxy's center in paths that take them far from the Galaxy's plane.





So when a star which has consumed all its fuel collapses in on itself, eventually turning into a black hole with infinite density and zero volume and an immensely powerful magnetic field.

The holy Quran refers to this fact ;i.e. the death of stars because of the exhaustion of its fuel " When the stars are extinguished " (Qur'an, 77:8)

Will all stars be black holes?

However, not all stars upon gravitational collapse form black holes. A star less than 1.4 times the mass of the sun will become a white dwarf . A star between 1.4 and 3 times the mass of the sun will become a neutron star . It's only those stars greater than 3 times the mass of the sun that become black holes upon collapse. They are formed from the cores of super massive stars and can best be described as regions of space where so much mass is concentrated that nothing, not even light, can escape the gravitational pull. It is an area where the escape velocity is greater than the speed of light. The more massive an object is, the faster you have to travel to escape its gravity. This is known as the escape velocity.

Black holes are so massive that their escape velocity is faster than the speed of light. Since nothing can travel faster than light, nothing can escape the gravity of a black hole.

Facets of Scientific Inimitability:

Allah, the Almighty, swore by these things to confirm the fact that the Ever-Glorious Qur'an is a Divine revelation. He (Exalted and Glorified be He) says: [So verily, I swear by the stars that are veiled . And by the (sweeping ) stars that move swiftly and hide themselves. And by the night as it departs; And by the dawn as it brightens; Verily, this is the Word (this Qur'an brought by) a most honorable messenger [Jibril (Gabriel), from Allah to the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)].] (At-Takwir: 15-19)

The importance of this kind of confirmation lies in the object used for swearing here, which is described in a way tantamount to black holes. The black holes are running stars that move in their poles, and hide themselves after having been obvious, as they are at the end of their lives. They produce no light due to their gravity which enables them to gravitate everything in their way and clear their way by swallowing up everything around. The Ever-Glorious Qur'an describes them as being ‘cleaners’ in conformity with the scientific description. The Qur’anic description which confirms the scientific one stands as decisive evidence that the Ever-Glorious Qur'an is the true word of Allah - Glory be to Him.

A non-Moslem scientist defined the black holes in a way that is really expressive. Though he never read the holy quran , he used the same word that the holy Quran used .This reflects how much the holy Quran scientific facts are in conformity with newly discovered facts . He literally said " It creates an immense gravitational pull not unlike an invisible cosmic vacuum cleaner. As it sucks in all matter in its way -not even light can escape.

The Arabic word " Konus " can be translated " sweeper or cleaner . It is the same word from which we derive what can be used in cleaning flats , i.e , the vacuum cleaner .

The Holy Quran is more accurate when describing the black hole ; in just three words the Holy Quran describes the black holes as follows :

(1)They are running and that what science says .

(2)They are receding away or veiled after being apparent and science says they were stars that receded or veiled as light can't escape their gravitation

(3)They suck or sweep any matter and that what science says about these stars.

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[Tony]

proof is that Allah tells us Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet. Wishful thinking and conjecture are of no coscern to Muslims as our proof comes in the way of enlightenment through personal experience. Respect to you Thinker but I think you are off track asking a Muslim to consider Muhammad(pbuh) being anything other than Allahs messenger. Subhan Allah. Many thanks for the points brought to light in this thread

[islamlover_girl]

3- Is the Universe Static


Big bang gives or interprets how the universe begins , it is the most widely accepted theory that explain how the universe began . It had given a strong blow to atheism . The fact of big bang is explained clearly in the Holy Quran . The Holy Quran has many characteristics , it addresses every generation , every person ,it rebuts every atheistic claim of every age …

What is the Big Bang

The Big Bang Model is a broadly accepted theory for the origin and evolution of our universe. It postulates that 12 to 14 billion years ago, the portion of the universe we can see today was only a few millimeters across. It has since expanded from this hot dense state into the vast and much cooler cosmos we currently inhabit. We can see remnants of this hot dense matter as the now very cold cosmic microwave background radiation which still pervades the universe and is visible to microwave detectors as a uniform glow across the entire sky.

what is the evidence for the Big Bang theory?

Redshift of Galaxies

The redshift of distant galaxies means that the Universe is probably expanding. If we then go back far enough in time, everything must have been squashed together into a tiny dot - this is the Big Bang.




Microwave Background

Very early in its history, the whole Universe was very hot. As it expanded, this heat left behind a "glow" that fills the entire Universe. The Big Bang theory not only predicts that this glow should exist, but that it should be visible as microwaves (part of the Electromagnetic Spectrum).

This is the Cosmic Microwave Background which has been accurately measured and is very good evidence that the Big Bang theory is correct.




Mixture of Elements

As the Universe expanded and cooled down, some of the elements that we see today were created. The Big Bang theory predicts how much of each element should have been made, and what we see in very distant galaxies and old stars is just right.

(You cannot look in new stars like the Sun as new elements are made in stars and so the amount of each one is different in new stars than the old ones made when the Universe was much younger).




Looking back in Time

The main alternative theory to the Big Bang theory of the Universe is called the Steady State theory.

In this theory, the Universe does not change very much with time.

Remeber that because light takes a long time to travel across the Universe, when we look at very distant galaxies, we are also looking back in time.

From this we can see that galaxies a long time ago were quite different from those today, showing that the Universe has changed. This fits better with the Big Bang theory than the Steady State theory.




Does the Holy Quran mention the Big Bang ?

Allah says in the Holy Quran what means "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth Were joined together (sewn together) (as one Unit of Creation and then We unstitched (clove them ) and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not believe? (Qur'an, 21:30) "

The verse says clearly that the facts about the creation of the universe will be discovered by the unbelievers , these facts were actually discovered by non-Moslems . Moreover the verse calls the atheists to rethink again over their unsubstantiated claim .

The Holy Quran uses just two words to sum up all what have been written to describe the Big Bang ; the Arabic word "ratq" (rendered in English "sewn ") means "mixed in each or blended" . It is used to refer to the state of the universe before being exploded . The Quranic word ( Ratek ) is what referred to in modern science as " one mass "

The phrase "we unstitched" , that is ,"fataqa" in Arabic implies that something comes into being by tearing apart or destroying the structure of things that are sewn to one another. The word is used to describe the beginning of creation in the Holy Quran ; it is ,along with all its implication , is in conformity with the meanings of the Big Bang .

In other words , when we think about the first moments of the Big Bang, we see that the entire matter of the universe was collected at one single point. In other words, everything-including "the heavens and earth" which were not created yet were in an interwoven and inseparable condition. Then, this point exploded violently, causing its matter to disunite.

Unlike the meanings of the big bang , the Quranic words denote system , wisdom , creativity while the words Big Bang , a term invented by scientists , implies random chaos . So now the Holy Quran , in the question of theism . gives the proof that the universe is not eternal and is in conformity with astrophysics . A book like this , revealed in a time when the best knowledge a bout universe proved to be superstition , gives accurate precise facts that are scientifically and widely accepted . It also gives credence to the prophet-hood of Mohummed , who was unlettered and neither could he read or could he write . If that prophet was imposter or counterfeiter , how dare he indulge himself in matters that don't concern the people of his age .

Here you can understand the miraculous use of the word in the Holy Quran , Allah says in the Holy Quran what means " Say: if the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid. ( AL-Kahf:109)

Allah says in the Holy Quran what means" And if all the trees on earth were pens and the Ocean (were ink), with seven Oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the Words of Allahbe exhausted (in the writing): for Allahis Exalted in power, full of Wisdom. ( Lokman :27)

The birth of the heaven and the earth in the Holy Quran is in conformity with science

[islamlover_girl]

4- The fate of the moon in the Holy Quran and science


Modern astrophysics , depending on accurate calculations , says that both the moon and the sun will be joined someday .

The Holy Quran , in reference to the Doomsday , stresses the same fact . Here is an article from Nasa that explains how all it will begin : the study says " Our Sun is made up of more than billions and billons of tons of matter. As a result, all of that matter produces a huge amount of gravitational force that squeezes the star more and more inward. In order to combat the inward crush from the gravitational force, The Sunutilizes fusion power to hold themselves up. At the Sun’s core, where the crush is most extreme, Hydrogen nuclei are repeatedly pushed together and combined to form Helium. A small amount of energy is given up in these fusion reactions. The newly formed energy flows outward toward the Sun’s surface heating the outer layers in the process and puffing the Sun up to counteract the inward force of gravity. According to scientists, as long as the Hydrogen fusion reactions are functioning as they have in the past, the Sun is safe from gravity and can continue to serve as a source of heat and light for Earth.

Unfortunately, the hydrogen fuel of the Sun can’t last forever. All good things eventually come to an end. In approximately five billion years from now, the Hydrogen at the center of the Sun will all be converted to Helium. At this point, the Sun will begin die.

The Holy Quran refers to this stage in the life of the sun , God says in the Holy Quran what means " When the sun (with its spacious light) is folded up " [81: 1]This is a matchless metaphor for causing the sun to lose its light. Takwir means to fold up; hence takwir al- `amamah for folding up the turban on the head. Here, the light which radiates from the sun and spreads throughout the solar system has been likened to the turban and it has been said that on the Resurrection Day the turban will be folded up about the sun and its radiation will fade.

Many Astronomers also believe that this will also start the beginning of trouble on our planet. Without its Hydrogen, the Sun has to find an alternate way to free up energy and combat gravity. The Helium deposits in its core can be fused into Carbon and Oxygen, but only if the conditions in The Sun’s core become much more extreme. In order for this to happen, the Sun changes in a very radical way. The core contracts and, even more importantly, the outer layers swell. When the Sun reaches its maturity, it will begin to bloat and swallow all the inner planets including the moon .

Another scientists says " The Sun is midway through its stable hydrogen burning phase known as the main sequence. But when the Sun enters the red giant phase in around 5 billion years things are going to get a lot rougher in the Earth-Moon system. "During the red giant phase the Sun will swell until its distended atmosphere reaches out to envelop the Earth and Moon

The Holy Quran refers to this stage in the following Holy Verse ; God says in the Holy Quran what means " And the sun and moon are joined together,"

Joined together ….doesn't science say that ?

Yes , it does …..so who told Mohummed …..He must be God , the creator of the universe …….it must be God who knows all the secrets of the universe …SO the Holy Quran is surely a Divine Book .

When the moon is so close to the sun , the outer crust will expand and broke into pieces , exactly like when the earth when undergoes an earth quake .

The Holy quran mentions this stage in the following verse "When the planets are scattered"

It is scientifically known that the stars are planets .

The moon is moving towards the sun

How was the moon near to the earth billions of years ago

billion years ago, the Moon was much closer to Earth than it will be tonight. Its tighter orbit meant it needed just 20 days to go around us, to make a lunar month. Other things were noticeably different, too. A day on Earth back then was only 18 hours long.

The Moon is now moving away from Earth and by then will be in an orbit that's about 40 percent larger than today. It will be the first to warp under the Sun's influence.

Today, the Moon is on average 239,000 miles (385,000 kilometres) away and has reached this point after a long and dramatic journey.

How far does the moon go every year ?

The Moon is being pushed away from Earth by 1.6 inches (4 centimeters) per year and our planet's rotation is slowing.

So the further the moon goes , the less its light till it meets the welloen atmosphere of the sun .

The Holy Quran mention this scientific fact which implies that the moon is moving away from the earth ." And the moon is buried in darkness. " [ AL-Kayma :8]

The moon will move away from the earth till it meets with the swollen sun ,thus collected or joined with the sun

Unspeakable events will happen before the doomsday . Further , Quran tells us that the sun will attract or swallow the moon ; God says in the Holy Quran what means " And the sun and moon are joined together " [ AL-Kayma :8]

it is literally says that both the sun and the moon will be joined together .

Numeric miracle :

Astrophysics says that the moon and the sun are aligned (19) times in the year ; the word the moon and the sun are coupled or mentioned together(19) times .

Though scientists calculate the period of cosmos events by millions and even billions of years , we would like to say that these are theoretical calculations . God has created certain laws that we don't understand , An astrophysics says , likening the human knowledge of present scientists as those of kids in kindergarten . this means that human mind hasn't got every thing . God says in the holy quran what means " of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men) [ Al-Asra :84]

We want to say that such calculations may happen because of the other laws that we don't know .

Any way there is a conformity between what science and the Holy Quran says

In the intervening eons, the Moon has been drifting away. Each year, it moves about 1.6 inches (4 centimeters) farther into space.

Can be a coincidence that such accurate facts in the holy Quran be in conformity with the newly discovered scientific facts ?

If Mohummed is imposter , why did he leave the culture of his age ,though he received no culture .

He could have won many people on his part , if he had mentioned the culture of his age .

Who told him such highly scientific facts that highly qualified scientists ,after long –tiring search , came to?

There is no doubt that Quran must be God's word , who says in the Holy Quran what means " Should He not know, He that created? And He is the One that understands the finest mysteries (and) is well acquainted (with them). ( Al-Malek :14)

What do you still in need to believe ?

What evidence do you still in need to believe ?

What can be called the unseen is turning to be seen

You are running out of time , once the story of your life comes to an end , there will either permanent happiness or eternal perdition .

It is time to win yourself

"And He found thee wandering, and He gave thee guidance."

The word wandering is not an accurate translation , the word (Dala=wandering " has another meaning , it is the intended meaning , it means (loving )

In Arabic , excessive love makes the human wander aimlessly , nothing here or there to attract his attention but his beloved – that is the case with some Sufis

Abu-Alyazedd, once filled the ecstasy of love towards god , so he wanderd till he entered into a field of sugarcane , already harvested , so the rest of remained as knives in the field , he walked on them , not feeling , his leg were severely wounded and bled so much , he was wandering not feeling of what happened –he bled all his blood till he died .

This what happen when God manifests himself partly to the human heart

Remember what happen to the mountain when God manifested Himself

Also , remember when in Journey nigh the angel stopped at a certain point no able to move , he won't be able to bear the lights of God's glory –manifestation

Only Mohummed was supplied by another power to bear

As to prophet Mohummed , It is something unknown that was enshrined in his heart , this move him to wander , moved him to leave his wife , his tribe , all of the world , he left the world to live in a versy small cave in a very hot desert – for what , the verse answer him saying " we found you (Dala-wanderer ) and we did guide you.

[islamlover_girl]

5- The Quran and the Spiders

Allah, the Almighty, said: (The parable of those who take protectors other than Allah is that of the spider, who builds (to itself) a house; but truly the flimsiest of houses is the spider's house;- if they but knew) (Surat Al-Ankabot: 41).

From these verses, the following universal signs can be detected:

(1)Confirmation of the fact that the spider's house is the flimsiest house, whether physically or spiritually. This has been proven by the late studies in zoology.

Following are some of the expositors' statements to explain the previous verses:

* In abbreviation, Ibn Kathir (May Allah bless his soul) mentioned: “This is an example given by Allah, the Almighty, of the idolaters who revere gods besides Allah. The idolaters hope that those gods will assist them, provide for them, and they turn to them in times of hardship. In this regard, they are like the spider’s house, in its weakness and frailty, because by clinging to these gods they are like a person who holds on to a spider's web and does not gain any benefit from that. Had they known this, they would not have taken protectors other than Allah. This is unlike the Muslim believer, whose heart is devoted to Allah and, in addition, does well in following Allah's decrees. The Muslim has grasped the most trustworthy handle, the one that never breaks because of its strength and stability…”

* In Tafsir Al-Jalalain “Al-Jalalain Interpretation” (may Allah bless their souls), which was investigated and commented on by Sheikh Mohamed Kan’an (May Allah bestow good on him), the following was stated: (The parable of those who take protectors other than Allah): idols which they hope will benefit them (is that of the spider, who builds (to itself) a house) in order to lodge in it. (The flimsiest) the weakest (of houses is the spider's house) that does not protect from heat nor cold. The same thing applies to idols which do no good to their worshippers. (If they but knew), they would not have worshipped those idols.

* In Safwat Al-Bayan Lem’any Al-Quran, the following was stated: (The parable of those who take protectors other than Allah…), meaning that the parable of those who worship idols and depend on them, as well as, hope for benefit and meditation of those idols, is that of the spider which builds itself a weak house by its spinning. This house does not protect the spider from the hot or cold weather, nor does it protect from the rain or in times of danger.

* The authors of Al-Montakhab fey Tafsir Al-Quran Al-Karim (may Allah bestow good on them) stated the following:

The talkers of vanities, who follow others than Allah, are similar, in their weakness, frailty, and dependence on others, to the spider which builds itself a house to protect itself. The spider’s house is the flimsiest of houses and farthest from being suitable for protection. If those talkers of vanities were people of knowledge and intelligence, they would not have done that.

The Spider from a Scientific Perspective

The spider is an animal of phylum Arthropoda, classified in Class Arachnida, which combines Order Araneida along with other orders including scorpions and mites.

The spider’s body is divided into a prosoma where the head is connected to the breast and an undivided opisthosoma which includes the abdomen. The prosoma carries four pairs of legs, two pairs of feelers, and two chelicerae which resemble a pair of pincers or claws that contain the poison glands. The prosoma is separated from the opisthosoma by a thin waist.

An anatomical photograph of silk-making glands

The spider has simple eyes whose number might be eight or less. It is a predator of insects and has a thick skin covered with hair which is shed around 7 to 8 times until it reaches maturity. Zoologists today know more than thirty thousand types of spiders which vary in sizes (from less than a millimeter to ninety millimeters), shapes and colors. Most spiders live in the wild, mostly alone except at times of mating and egg hatching. The spiders’ environment extends from sea level to heights of five thousand meters. The spider has three pairs of prominent moving protrusions in the lower abdomen. These protrusions have tiny holes from which the fluid used to make the threads for its house comes out; therefore, they are known as the spinners. This fluid which comes out from a number of special glands to outside the spider's body, through the rear spinners, dries as soon as it is subjected to air. When it dries, various threads are produced which differ in types, length, and strength according to the difference in the producing glands.

A photograph of the spider's threads being produced from the silk glands as if it were a thread factory

The spider might stay in its house, where it practices all life's activities, or it might have a nest or a hideout other than the house, which is connected to the house by a thread known as the trap thread. The spider escapes to this hideout at times of danger.

The Scientific Indications of the Holy Script

First: Referring to the spider in the singular form:

In Lissan Al-Arab, under the subject (ankab), it was mentioned that the (ankaboot “spider”) is an animal which weaves in the air, and on the mouth of the well, a flimsy thin web. It is a feminine word, and may have been mentioned in poetry. The spider’s house is called (al-akdaba). Al-Feraa said: the spider is feminine, and some Arabs may mention it. The plural form is (al-ankabotat), (al-anakeb), and (al-anakeeb). In Yemen’s language, it is (aknabaah), as well as, (ankbaa) and (ankabowah). Sibawayh mentioned (ankabaa) while giving evidence on the addition of ta'a in (ankaboot), so he does not know if it is singular or plural. Ibn Al-A'rabey said" (al-ankab) is for the masculine, and (al-ankaba) is for the feminine. It was said that (al-ankab) is the spider’s classification. Al-Ankaboot maybe masculine or feminine. Al-Moubarid said: al-ankaboot is feminine and can be used for the masculine.

Most likely, the term (al-ankaboot) is for the feminine singular, the plural of which is (al-anakeb).

Naming the noble surat with the singular form (Al-Ankaboot “The Spider") indicates the solitary life of this animal, except at times of mating and egg hatching. This can be compared to the two surats Al-Nahel (The Bees) and Al-Namel (The Ants), where the names are plural since these insects live in groups.

Second: In His saying: (Builds to itself a house):

In this noble quranic verse, there is a clear indication that the female spider is the one mainly undertaking the building of the house. Consequently, building the spider's house is a mission shouldered by the female spiders. It is the female which has in its body the glands for secretion of the silk material from which the spider’s house is woven. Sometimes, the male spider might take part in helping with the building, repairing or expanding. However, the process of building is mainly feminine. It is here where we find the scientific miracle in Allah's (the Almighty) saying: builds to itself a house.

Third: In the Almighty's saying: (the flimsiest of houses is the spider's house…)

This miraculous quranic script indicates a number of important facts, some of which are:

(1) Physical weakness:The spider’s house, from the physical point of view, is the weakest house of all, because it is made out of a number of very delicate silk threads. These threads are interwoven, leaving large separating spaces at most times. Therefore, they do not protect from the heat of the sun, or the extreme cold. These threads do not form adequate shade, nor protect from the rain, storming winds, or the dangers of attackers. This is despite the miraculous building of this house.

(2) The weakness is in the spider’s house and not the threads;for the Almighty says (the flimsiest of houses). This is a clear indication that the weakness and frailty are within the spider's house and not the spider's threads. This is a very precise indication. The threads of the spider's house are made of very delicate silk. The thickness of one thread is usually one million of the squared inch, or one part of four thousand parts of the thickness of the ordinary human hair. Despite its delicacy, it is the strongest biological substance known to mankind so far. The silk threads which make up the spider’s web are considered stronger than steel, and their strength is surpassed only by the melted quartz. The thin thread stretches to five times its length before it is cut. Therefore, the scientists call it “biological steel”or “bio-steel”. It is twenty times stronger than the ordinary metal steel. Its tolerance measures 300,000 pound for the square inch. Hypothetically speaking, should there be a thick rope of the spider’s threads, in the size of the thumb, it can easily carry a "jumbo" jet.



(3) Spiritual weakness:The spider’s house, spiritually speaking, is the flimsiest of all houses, because it is deprived of all love and kindness, which are the pillars of any happy home. The female, in some types of spiders, kills the male as soon as the fertilization takes place. Being larger in size and more violent, the female kills the male and eats its body. In some cases, the female eats its youngsters mercilessly. In some types, the female dies after fertilizing its eggs, which are usually fostered in a silk bag. When the eggs hatch, spiderlings come out to find themselves in a very crowded place inside the eggs bag. The siblings then start to fight for food, space or both. The brother kills its brother and sister, and the sister kills its sister and brother, until the fight ends with a few spiderlings remaining. These spiderlings shed their skin and tear the eggs bag to come out one after the other with unhappy memories. They all then spread in the surrounding environment. Each female starts to build its house. On the road to achieve this goal, some of the spiderlings die, whereas those who survive repeat the same tragedy. This makes the spider’s house the most violent and ruthless house, lacking all forms of kinship. Hence, Allah the Almighty sets it as a parable in its weakness and frailty because it lacks the simplest form of kindness between the husband and wife, the mother and her children, the brother and his siblings, and the sister and her siblings.

Fourth: In His saying: (If they but knew):

These facts were unknown to any human at the time of revelation, and for long centuries thereafter. They have been discovered after extensive studies of the behavior of the spider by hundreds of scientists, for tens of years, until they were realized in the last decades of the twentieth century. That is why our God (Exalted be He) ended the noble verse with His saying (if they but knew).

Consequently, the quranic description of the spider’s house as being the flimsiest of all houses; this description which was revealed to an illiterate prophet (PBUH) in a nation with a majority of illiterates, fourteen hundred years ago, is considered a scientific achievement which no sensible person would imagine a source for other than Allah the Creator. Allah is the one who revealed the noble quran with His knowledge to the final Prophet and Messenger. It is Allah who protected the quran in the same language in which it was revealed (the Arabic language) for fourteen or more centuries. Allah will continue to protect the quran until He inherits earth and those who live on it. The quran will remain as evidence on all people till the Day of Judgment. The truth within quran will stand witness to the holy quran being the words of Allah, the Creator. It will also stand witness to the prophet hood and message bestowed on the Final Prophet and Messenger to whom the quran was revealed (PBUH). The Prophet has delivered the message, fulfilled the trust, advised the nation, and struggled in the cause of Allah until his final days. We ask you Allah, the Almighty, to reward him, our Prophet, with the best of the rewards given to a prophet for his works with his ummah, and the best of rewards given to a messenger for the fine fulfillment of his mission. We pray to Allah to bestow on our prophet the right of intercession and superiority and send him (on the Day of Judgment) to the highest standing (in Paradise) which He promised him, for Allah does not break His promises. We end our supplication by praising Allah, and praying to Him to bestow peace and blessing on our Prophet Mohamed, his family, companions and whoever follows his way till the Day of Judgment.

Some Hidden Quranic Signs:

A- The house of the spideris not merely its dwelling place. Being the sticky net it is, it constitutes a trap for flying insects such as flies and others. These insects are a prey on which the spider feeds. Similarly, those idolaters who revere gods besides Allah, and call people to those revered gods, are in fact calling them to an artful trap which leads them to their death and destruction in this life and the afterlife. Allah, the Almighty, said: (Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.) (Surat Al- Nesaa: 48)

B- Warning against those withcorrupt invocations who revere others besides Allah, whether money or whim. This warning is issued through indicating their hidden strings with which they hunt their victims. These strings can be money, sex, power, or any other hidden string which destroys the victim once it is trapped.

[islamlover_girl]

6-God’s Signs in Protecting the Living Being Himself


God sys in the Holy Quran in this connection what means "And how many a sign within the heavens and earth do they pass over while they, therefrom, are turning away﴿(YUSUF: 105)
When a snake bites a wolf, the wolf hurries to chew the roots of the fragrant Luffa having confidence on recovery. Who guided and taught him that the recovery is in the roots of the fragrant Luffa

God sys in the Holy Quran in this connection what means "And of his signs is the creation of the heavens and earth and what He has dispersed throughout them of creatures. And He, for gathering them when He wills, is competent" (AL SHOORA: 29)

"And in the creation of yourselves and what He disperses of moving creatures are signs for people who are certain [in faith]. AL JATHIYAH: 4)

The wonders that indicate the existence, the omnipotence, and the conduct of God in the universe are more than to count, but they need a meditating mind. We will deal with some of these miracles that may heal the souls from doubt and suspicion.

Scientists say that the protection means, the body use internally is a proof of the existence of God praised and exalted. “If you knew a lot of human body secrets, you will be amazed at how a person becomes sick. Because inside the body there is an independence world that behaves in an obvious aspiration to push away the sickness and even to guard the living being’s health, a matter which the physician fails to do”, Dr. Walter Cannon, a physiologist, says. The physicians determined that they are trying to imitate what happens in the inside of the human being himself in their remedy and that the medicines they prescribe are to help the inside in his work, with no favour to the man or even knowing it.

If the human being was considered an obvious example for the actions he takes to protect himself externally by war, efforts, thinking, attacking, working and resting, and taking medicine – and internally without intervention from the man himself – for the rising of the temperature, the production of the antibodies, and the attack of the erythrocyte. Hence, the animal is considered also one of the wonderful examples that show clearly the power of life in protecting the animal.

“When he was passing with a wild animal that he tamed, a barbed wire injured deeply the animal in his flank. The physician hurried to sterilize by antiseptic and tie a bandage around the injury. After awhile, the animal removed and threw away the bandage. Then, the animal began to lick his injury gently to remove the hair that covers the injury and expose it to the air and sun. The animal continued to take care of his injury until recovered.”, Dr. Archibald Teldge says.

He says also that the ancient Red Indian and our ancestors had rightly guided to know the principles of medicine by observing the animals while moving to the plant that used to cure them from injuries, fever, or indigestion, also by observing the bear which was infected by a disease while unearthing to search for the roots of the fern, and by examining the wolf, which was bitten by a snake, hurries to chew the roots of the fragrant Luffa having confidence on recovery.

It has been known about animals and birds that they use a shady and cold place in the open air and near the water when they suffer fever, while using an eastern warm place where the sun shines when they suffer cold. It is noticed also that when they feel that the food eaten is decayed – if it needs to be excreted – the animal resorts to a laxative plant it knows or to vomit by itself. Birds and animals were widely seen when having a wrench or break in one of its limbs, it amputates this broken organ by itself then it is healed immediately. Frosts men know that if the woodcock has broken its leg, it put a splint made of clay on the broken leg and support the splint with the fibers it finds.






Elephants in forests never walk separately except those that judged to be strayed. A guide leads the elephant group towards the water and the food.


We all see the birds while cleaning its beak in the wall or the branches. Moreover, if you come across an eagle after eating its food, you will admire that it cleans its beak repeatedly.

Birds and animals wash themselves in a certain times that they never deviate. They do not wash themselves for cleaning their bodies only, but also to regenerate their energy.

If that was what the living being does to preserve itself, there is much evidence that this species becomes cautious and careful to preserve its individuals, which induces the human to believe in the existence of a superior power that takes care of all the creatures by all its varieties.

All the animals and birds that move in groups, nominate some of them as guards, and others as guides. This is not a coincidence but by intention and planning. Elephants in forests never walk separately except those that judged to be strayed. The guide leads the elephant group towards the water and the food. Also the older males guard the flock of birds in its moving and the weakest members walk at the rear, while in the contrary, the guards of the antelopes walk at the back because the wolf – which is the most dangerous animal for antelopes – does not attack the herd but from the back.

There appears in locusts the reconnaissance caravan where the front, that does not exceed a few individuals, walks to explore the road, which is an herald of swarm of locust that may spread over two thousand square miles.

Reference: “God and the Modern Science”by Abd El-Razek Nofal – The Arabian publisher – Third edition.

[Thinker]

Salam, my new Egyptian friend . . . . . . so many ‘proofs,’ the question is though, “is quantity a fair substitute for quality”? OK, you pick out the one which you believe is the strongest ‘proof’ and if it is proof, I will convert to Islam.

[Thinker]

Thinker, nobodies bothered if you convert to Islam or not

I’m not sure if the ummah share that viewpoint but bye the bye – you don’t care but I do care. I don’t want to fry in hell, but I’m not subscribing to anyone of the 1000 different religions just because I feel I must pick one. I am happy to share what I believe, the reasons I believe and the evidence on why I believe. I am also secure enough within myself to admit that I may be wrong and I seek other evidence and other opinion constantly seeking to challenge my views. Are you secure enough within yourself to challenge yourself to question what you believe?

[Tony]

ok I see how my response loked a bit harsh thinker. What I meant was that Allah does not need you or any non beleiver, we all need Him. I hope you find peace honestly I do, but it will not be through cold hard scientific proof, there are signs, but the truth is that if an absolute proof was presented then the whole point of giving our life to the praise of Allah and trying to forego the transient pleasures of this life would be undermined. My proof has come in the answer of duas and reasoning/considering the Qur'an and life of our prophets(pbuh). I would love to see you and others embrace Islam but its not my conscern as my own faith needs enough attention. On the subject of accepting challenge to my beleif all I can say is that Ive tried so much and been through so much for my 39 years that beleif in God should have been out of the question, however even when I am struggling my knowledge of Allah is steadfast. If it helps you to riddicule my beleif then please feel free, I mean this sincerely and I will answer you honestly. Keep looking for proof but try to accept the proof you gain may not be metred out or measurable, but may be the smallest of signifigance at humanitarian level. Sorry if I gave a bad impression in last post.:thumbs_up

[salamfromrom]

Hello thinker.


A quick question...are you a member forums other than Islamic ones (christian forums etc). Can you compare the different faiths...What does your heart tell you?

Peace

[Thinker]

Hello thinker.


A quick question...are you a member forums other than Islamic ones (christian forums etc). Can you compare the different faiths...What does your heart tell you?

Peace

No I am not a member of any other forum. I was raised as a Catholic and believe I know enough about Christianity to form my opinions on it. And, I don’t know if there is an agnostic forum but I can’t see the point of discussing issues with people who hold the same views as me. I joined this forum because I started reading the Qu’ran out of interest after I saw and heard moderate Muslims saying that the Qu’ran was a book of peace and radical Muslims saying it was a book of war and I am very interested in people and what motivates them and I do (truly) think a lot and I find some of the discussions intellectually stimulating.

And, when I say show me proof and I will convert I am being truthful, but truth is, from what I have learnt I think that’s unlikely. In fact, thinking through all that I have learned, I have proved to myself that the Qur’an is not the word of God (and by prove I mean by accepted forms of proof). But I always remind myself that I could be wrong and something could come along that would change my view and I remain open to that prospect.

[Chuck]

I have proved to myself that the Qur’an is not the word of God (and by prove I mean by accepted forms of proof).

Can you elaborate on that?

[islamlover_girl]

Hello again mr Thinker .I hope I can help u, I ll do my best isa, honestly I hope peace to u.

They start from a point which is an absolute unchallengeable certainty e.g. ‘any two points can be connected by a straight line’ (read Euclids Elements).

I think its unchallengeable that fourteen hundred years ago people wasn`t able to know when hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones of the embryo r created (there wasn`t sonar).

prophet muhammed said {In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days}Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2643
and said {If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones}Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2645

Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson (which is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992).
Professor Simpson studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and said
So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”

[islamlover_girl]

By the way I d like to know what s ur study or job coz it may be better to tell u about Scientific Miracles in the Quran related in ur career .

[czgibson]

Greetings,

By the way I d like to know what s ur study or job coz it may be better to tell u about Scientific Miracles in the Quran related in ur career .

Did you know:

"Scientific miracles" in the Qur'an are only convincing to people who are already Muslims.

Peace

[islamlover_girl]

hello mr czgibson

Greetings,
Did you know:
"Scientific miracles" in the Qur'an are only convincing to people who are already Muslims.

Peace

Most Scientific miracles in the quran was discovered by Scientists’ who r not muslims. They was amazed and impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of the quran .
In this link some Scientists’ Comments on Scientific Miracles in the Quran with vedeos In this videotape, you can see and hear the scientists while they are giving the comments.
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/proofs/

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Most Scientific miracles in the quran was discovered by Scientists’ who r not muslims.

Maybe - but they were paid by Muslims.

They was amazed and impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of the quran .

How many of them converted to Islam as a result?

Peace

[islamlover_girl]

How many of them converted to Islam as a result?

A lot of them converted to Islam as a result
here s some examples with vedeos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ48Zjkx9I8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhHr7OBQrKs


http://www.esnips.com/doc/45b6297d-a...onvert-2-islam


http://www.muslimvideo.com/tv/watch/...verts-to-Islam

[czgibson]

Greetings,

OK, so we have four and counting. Fair enough.

Interesting clips - thank you. :)

Peace

[Thinker]

Can you elaborate on that?

You ask me to prove that the Qu’ran is not the word of God.

There are several forms of accepted methods of proof and the form I choose is reductio ad absurdum. See . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum In short, this method of proof requires and agreed starting point and evidence showing that the proposition in question contradicts the agreed starting point and is consequently reduced to the absurd (reductio ad absurdum) – proof by contradiction.

The agreed starting point is the description of God. To be God the entity must be:
Perfect;
He must be just (dispensing perfect justice);
He cannot make a mistake;
He must know everything; everything that has been and everything that will be.
He must be able to do anything.

That is our agreed starting point – the definition of God.

That definition is contradicted by the below actions:

Islam teaches that God delivered the Ten Commandments to Moses as a guide for what men must do and not do to please God. If God needed to return and deliver additional messages to Muhammad did he not make himself clear first time or was that message not complete – did he make a mistake?

Surely God wouldn’t need 23 years to deliver his message, did he not know it all on day one.

Why did God, knowing the future and the needless need for scholars to interpret the Qu’ran not give it in writing on day one (as he did with the ten commandments?

The Qu’ran states: 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: And 16:101: When We substitute one revelation for another, God is saying that he’s going substitute one statement with another, if he knows all things how come he doesn’t know something will occur later requiring the verse to be amended and consequently get it right first time?

The Qu’ran sanctions injustice - how can that be, God cannot be unjust. The Qu’ran sanctions killing and slavery, it sanctions segregation and preference, it condemns all those who do not become ‘believers’ and abide by the verses of the Qu’ran to hell and more; that is not the actions of an entity dispensing perfect justice.

I submit that if any one of the above items is correct, the actions contradict the definition of God and consequently the Qu’ran cannot be the words of God.

[Thinker]

Hello again mr Thinker .I hope I can help u, I ll do my best isa, honestly I hope peace to u.


I think its unchallengeable that fourteen hundred years ago people wasn`t able to know when hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones of the embryo r created (there wasn`t sonar).

prophet muhammed said {In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days}Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2643
and said {If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones}Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2645

Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson (which is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992).
Professor Simpson studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad and said
So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”

Ah my new Egyptian friend – is this the best ‘proof’ you have? It appears that Muhammad learned these things from the Greeks - read on . . .

You say that the idea of the embryo developing through stages is revealed by Muhammad for the first time. . . . . . Many ancient writers like Galen taught that humans developed in different stages. And, for example the Jewish Talmud states that the embryo has six stages of development. Samuel ha-Yehudi was a 2nd century Jewish physician, and one of many with an interest in embryology [22]. The embryo was called peri habbetten (fruit of the body) and develops as
golem (formless, rolled-up thing);
shefir meruqqam (embroidered foetus - shefir means amniotic sac);
'ubbar (something carried);
v'alad (child);
v'alad shel qayama (noble or viable child) and
ben she-kallu chadashav (child whose months have been completed).
Yet with the benefit of modern science we now know that the formation of a human being is a seamless continuation from conception to birth, hence the reason why there is so much contemporary confusion about abortion and embryo research. For if we develop as a continuous process it is impossible to draw hard-and-fast boundaries about when life starts. That makes a nonsense of the Qur'anic verse which says (71:14) "When He created you by (divers) stages".

The account of the different stages in embryology as described by the Qur'an and hadeeth was taught by Galen, writing in around AD 150 in Pergamum (Bergama in modern Turkey). Galen taught that the embryo developed in four stages as detailed below.
Galen: De Semine in Greek

(Note - the Greek document didn't copy across - possibly because it's a picture)

English translation:
But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ‘a new creation’) ...
... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow [19].

Qur'an: Sura 23:13-14 in Arabic for comparison

(Note - the Arabic document didn't copy across - possibly because it's a picture)

English translation:
Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman). Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (Alaqa, a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh (Mudghah), then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!
The first stage, geniture, corresponds to [nutfah], the drop of semen; the second stage, a bloody vascularised foetus with unshaped brain, liver and heart ("when it has been filled with blood") corresponds to [alaqa], the blood clot; the third stage "has the form of flesh" and corresponds to [mudghah], the morsel of chewed flesh. The fourth and final stage, puer, was when all the organs were well formed, joints were freely moveable, and the foetus began to move [20]. If the reader is in any doubt about the clear link being described here between the Galenic and the Qur'anic stages, it may be pointed out that it was early Muslim doctors, including Ibn-Qayyim, who first spotted the similarity. Basim Musallam, Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge concludes
"The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen's scientific account ... There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages" [21].

[aamirsaab]

Islam teaches that God delivered the Ten Commandments to Moses as a guide for what men must do and not do to please God. If God needed to return and deliver additional messages to Muhammad did he not make himself clear first time or was that message not complete – did he make a mistake?

Nope. People disobeyed. God had mercy and gave them another chance.

Surely God wouldn’t need 23 years to deliver his message, did he not know it all on day one.

Can a human being learn the entire UK [or any] legal system in one day? No. So how can you expect someone to learn 6,666 verses in the same time period? It was over a period of years so people could actually hope to understand it, least of all the Prophet [saw].

Why did God, knowing the future and the needless need for scholars to interpret the Qu’ran not give it in writing on day one (as he did with the ten commandments?

Again, 6,666 verses are a lot more than 10.

The Qu’ran states: 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: And 16:101: When We substitute one revelation for another, God is saying that he’s going substitute one statement with another, if he knows all things how come he doesn’t know something will occur later requiring the verse to be amended and consequently get it right first time?

Laws and rulings went through progression/stages. Implimenting final-cut laws do not work (see: alcohol prohibition in america).

The Qu’ran sanctions killing and slavery

Killing enemy combatants and/or criminals
Slavery because of the time period (where slavery was a social norm. Again, this went through progressive stages)

Removing the context from Quranic verses is not cool.

it sanctions segregation and preference

-Segregation between men and women you mean. To prevent flirting and promiscuity which lead to adultery, under aged sex, child abortions. How is segregation in that context BAD?
-Preference in terms of behaviour and manners.

it condemns all those who do not become ‘believers’ and abide by the verses of the Qu’ran to hell and more

Think of the Quran as a map to paradise. If you don't follow it (and therefore believe it) will you get to paradise? Nope. Quran just makes it clear from the get-go: don't follow this map and you won't go to paradise. No BS or hidden fees.

that is not the actions of an entity dispensing perfect justice.

Even though Allah grants them justice in THIS life?

I submit that if any one of the above items is correct, the actions contradict the definition of God and consequently the Qu’ran cannot be the words of God.

You didn't give any real examples other than blanket statements. I suggest you back up your theories with relevant examples (perhaps Quranic Ayats [you gave a couple but no more] hadith etc) - it would lend more weighting towards your argument. As is, any practicing muslim can and will refute you sufficiently with mere common knowledge/basics of Islamic teachings/theology.

Now, unless you understand the basics of Islamic theology, don't even attempt to refute it as a religion.

[Whatsthepoint]

Slavery because of the time period (where slavery was a social norm. Again, this went through progressive stages)

No it didn't.
btw, are tehre really 6,666 verses in the book?

[aamirsaab]

No it didn't.

First step was giving them rights. Then the Quran allowed for them to be freed.

btw, are tehre really 6,666 verses in the book?

Just had a check, It's 6346 (including the unnumbered bismillah's before each surah) and not 6,666 (was misinformed about that)

[Whatsthepoint]

First step was giving them rights. Then the Quran allowed for them to be freed.

It didn't work as well as the booze ban, Muslim traded slaves up until the 20th century.
As for rights, well, rights...

[aamirsaab]

It didn't work as well as the booze ban, Muslim traded slaves up until the 20th century.

True, but it was better than nothing I'm sure you can agree.

As for rights, well, rights...

Again though, much better than what they had before. A slave back then was closer to what we deem a prison biatch nowadays. After the Quranic rulings, slaves were more akin to butlers/house workers.

In any case, the point I was making was those verses regarding slaves are for those who have/had slaves or are living in conditions were slavery is a normality (as it once was). So, essentially, there exists context behind those verses that many critics often fail to see.

[Whatsthepoint]

True, but it was better than nothing I'm sure you can agree.


Again though, much better than what they had before. A slave back then was closer to what we deem a prison biatch nowadays. After the Quranic rulings, slaves were more akin to butlers/house workers.

In any case, the point I was making was those verses regarding slaves are for those who have/had slaves or are living in conditions were slavery is a normality (as it once was). So, essentially, there exists context behind those verses that many critics often fail to see.

They were still slaves and definitely not akin to butlers. And even if they were, Arabs were mainly selling them to non-Muslims.
And yes, it is better do give them some rights than do nothing but it's still owning human beings. I wouldn't expect a god to condone it and if what you say is true, that slavery was a social reality that had to be removed in stages, why did it fail so utterly, why didn't it go along the lines of alchohol ban, why is there no clear timeline and method to gradually abolish it?

[Chuck]

They were still slaves and definitely not akin to butlers. And even if they were, Arabs were mainly selling them to non-Muslims.
And yes, it is better do give them some rights than do nothing but it's still owning human beings. I wouldn't expect a god to condone it and if what you say is true, that slavery was a social reality that had to be removed in stages, why did it fail so utterly, why didn't it go along the lines of alchohol ban, why is there no clear timeline and method to gradually abolish it?

Technically they were servants with the rights that were given to them.

[aamirsaab]

They were still slaves and definitely not akin to butlers. And even if they were, Arabs were mainly selling them to non-Muslims.
And yes, it is better do give them some rights than do nothing but it's still owning human beings. I wouldn't expect a god to condone it and if what you say is true, that slavery was a social reality that had to be removed in stages, why did it fail so utterly, why didn't it go along the lines of alchohol ban, why is there no clear timeline and method to gradually abolish it?

I'm no expert in the field so cannot comment much beyond what I've already posted. The Qur'an did allow for slaves to be freed and we have the Prophet's examples to look to for evidence. So I don't see what the issue is (or why thinker brought it up originally). Yes it allowed for slavery but it also encouraged you to free slaves.

Why the methodology was different? Perhaps because one deals with alcohol (an addictive beverage) and the other slavery?

[Whatsthepoint]

I'm no expert in the field so cannot comment much beyond what I've already posted. The Qur'an did allow for slaves to be freed and we have the Prophet's examples to look to for evidence. So I don't see what the issue is (or why thinker brought it up originally). Yes it allowed for slavery but it also encouraged you to free slaves.

Why the methodology was different? Perhaps because one deals with alcohol (an addictive beverage) and the other slavery?

I meant why does it merely encourage it and on the other hand commands the banning of alcohol?

[Whatsthepoint]

Technically they were servants with the rights that were given to them.

Rather slaves treated better than before.

[Chuck]

Well lets look at the rights given to slaves:
(1) Masters must treat them good and provide them proper food, shelter, and clothing. If a master failed to do these things a slave can go to court which would penalize master, move slave to different master, or slave might be set free.

(2) Slaves had the right to earn their freedom.

[Chuck]

Rather slaves treated better than before.

What is the legal definition of a servant?

[Whatsthepoint]

Well lets look at the rights given to slaves:
(1) Masters must treat them good and provide them proper food, shelter, and clothing. If a master failed to do these things a slave can go to court which would penalize master, move slave to different master, or slave might be set free.

(2) Slaves had the right to earn their freedom.

The key word in both cases is allow/encourage rather than command. The Quran doesn't command to free slaves, it doesn't prescribe the slave's right to earn his freedom, I don't even think it commands master to treat their slaves well, though if tehy can go to court, that is probably teh case.
And of course, slavery is owning a human being no matter what rights they may have.

[Whatsthepoint]

What is the legal definition of a servant?

Someone who applies for a servant's job and is free to leave whenever they want?

[Chuck]

Someone who applies for a servant's job and is free to leave whenever they want?

Slaves were already there, but they had the right to earn their freedom.

[Whatsthepoint]

Slaves were already there, but they had the right to earn their freedom.

Did they or was it just the goodwill of their masters to let them earn it?
Show me a verse that clearly states a slave has the right to earn his or her freedom.

[Chuck]

The key word in both cases is allow/encourage rather than command. The Quran doesn't command to free slaves, it doesn't prescribe the slave's right to earn his freedom, I don't even think it commands master to treat their slaves well, though if tehy can go to court, that is probably teh case.
And of course, slavery is owning a human being no matter what rights they may have.

(1) It doesn't allow to make new slaves with the exception in war.
(2) Both Quran and sunnah commands to treat slaves kindly. This was the reasons Islamic jurist would look at the complaint from a slave.
(3) It sets provisions to free the slave (against sins, etc..).
(4) In addition to above, a slave can negotiate his/her freedom.

[Treatment]
"…do ‘Ihsan’ (goodness) to parents …and (to) what your right hands posses."[4:36]

Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 3.721, Narrated Al Marur bin Suwaid

I saw Abu Dhar Al-Ghifari wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a cloak. We asked him about that (i.e. how both were wearing similar cloaks). He replied, "Once I abused a man and he complained of me to the Prophet. The Prophet (peace be upon him) asked me, 'Did you abuse him by slighting his mother?' He added, 'Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has one's brethren under one's control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them (in their hard job).' "

[Slave can negotiate freedom]
"And if any of your slaves ask you for a deed in writing (for emancipation) give them such a deed; If ye knew any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you…"[24:33]

Annemarie Schimmel writes in "Islam: An Introduction", p. 67

Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but believers are constantly admonished to treat their slaves well. In case of illness a slave has to be looked after and well cared for. To manumit [free] a slave is highly meritorious; the slave can ransom himself by paying some of the money he has earned while conducting his own business. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam. The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of the women's quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions.

[Whatsthepoint]

Actually, masters aren't required to sign anything, they're asked to do so if they can see good in their slaves which is vague and non-binding.
And none of this changes the fact, thats laves are not free and are not equal to their masters since the moment they're born.
None of the provisions you mentioned seem to have deterred Arabs form trading slaves, or treating them badly for that matter...

[Chuck]

Actually, masters aren't required to sign anything, they're asked to do so if they can see good in their slaves which is vague and non-binding.
And none of this changes the fact, thats laves are not free and are not equal to their masters since the moment they're born.
None of the provisions you mentioned seem to have deterred Arabs form trading slaves, or treating them badly for that matter...

Following verse is related as far as ransoming themselves is considered.

"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates…"[47:4]

It deterred them thats the reason Arabs who went against it looked outside Arabian peninsula.

[Whatsthepoint]

Following verse is related as far as ransoming themselves is considered.


It deterred them thats the reason Arabs who went against it looked outside Arabian peninsula.

this verse speaks of war and war prisoners, it doesn't necessarily apply to all slaves.
Do you consider enslaving of non-muslims moral?

[Chuck]

this verse speaks of war and war prisoners, it doesn't necessarily apply to all slaves.
Do you consider enslaving of non-muslims moral?

Signing and ransoming to free are connected/extended and thats how many jurist took it. Freeing for free didn't require signing a contract.

As for enslaving non-muslims that was only done in a war, and those non-muslims were enslaving too at that time.

[Chuck]

Here is a good essay http://history.osu.edu/students/PhiA...les_Higley.pdf

[Thinker]

Segregation

By segregation and preference I had in mind verses like this . . .

3:28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

I seems to me to be unjust to segregate people or show preference to people based upon their religion and as God must be just, by definition the Qu'ran cannot be the word of God.

[Thinker]

Technically they were servants with the rights that were given to them.

Servants with rights - is that your definitions of slavery?

The point I was trying to make was that condoning slavery contradicts the definition of God and as the Qu’ran condones slavery it by definition, is not the word of God.

4:24. Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:

24:31. And say to the believing women . . . . . or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs

2.221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, . . . . . A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever.

[aamirsaab]

By segregation and preference I had in mind verses like this . . .

3:28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah. except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

I seems to me to be unjust to segregate people or show preference to people based upon their religion and as God must be just, by definition the Qu'ran cannot be the word of God.

Read me

In any case, this is moving far off the topic (you're other verses can/will/have been refuted in another thread - please make use of the search function first). We're discussing if Muhammad [saw] was a true prophet - not an analysis of the Qur'an. :)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Read me

In any case, this is moving far off the topic (you're other verses can/will/have been refuted in another thread - please make use of the search function first). We're discussing if Muhammad [saw] was a true prophet - not an analysis of the Qur'an. :)

I don't see how this is off-topic. The Qur'an is obviously an important part of the Messenger's Message, and it is necessary to discuss it if one is to discuss whether or not Muhammad (pbuh) was a true prophet.

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking you're just trying to shut the discussion down.

But you're a good man and I'm sure you wouldn't do something like that. :)

Peace

[MO783]

Jazakallah

[Chuck]

No. I mean, slaves don't have the right to get themselves free if any rights at all by definition. But in Islam they underprivileged brothers as the hadith says, they have rights including the right to free themselves with compensation. Technically, this not a slave.

I don't really see your point in the following verses.

Servants with rights - is that your definitions of slavery?

The point I was trying to make was that condoning slavery contradicts the definition of God and as the Qu’ran condones slavery it by definition, is not the word of God.

4:24. Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:

24:31. And say to the believing women . . . . . or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs

2.221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, . . . . . A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever.

[sirajstc]

ya true agree with you :)

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


I don't see how this is off-topic. The Qur'an is obviously an important part of the Messenger's Message, and it is necessary to discuss it if one is to discuss whether or not Muhammad (pbuh) was a true prophet.

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking you're just trying to shut the discussion down.

But you're a good man and I'm sure you wouldn't do something like that. :)

Peace

Lol, sneaky. By all means discuss but making statements along the lines of such and such verse of the Qur'an cannot be likened to God is indeed different to analysing/questionning if Muhammad [saw] was a true Prophet. Certainly, some analysis of the Quran can be included in such a discussion but primarily the focus should be on Muhammad's [saw] actions.

[Thinker]

Read me

In any case, this is moving far off the topic (you're other verses can/will/have been refuted in another thread - please make use of the search function first). We're discussing if Muhammad [saw] was a true prophet - not an analysis of the Qur'an. :)

Greetings respected moderator,

On topic / off topic

The member who started this thread posted a series of (as she called them) ‘proofs’ that Muhammad was the true prophet. The ‘topic’ is then, I suggest, to produce evidenced argument that this premise is true or false. I produced my structured argument which showed (in my opinion) that verses of the Qu’ran directed or condoned certain behaviour that God could not have condoned and consequently that made the Qu’ran not the word of God and by extension Muhammad was not delivering God’s mesasage.

I suggested that God could not have condoned slavery and could not have condoned segregation as both are unjust and God cannot be unjust. That, I humbly suggest is ‘on topic.’

I produced verse 3:28 as an example of the Qu’ran promoting segregation. Again, I humbly suggest still ‘on topic.’ That verse commands that Muslims not take as friends anyone other than other Muslims. You referred me to a link where ‘scholars’ have been asked that question.

In that link is the following answer. . . .

In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America, states:
The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

This reply says that non-Muslims can be the friends of Muslims but Muslims can only be ‘friendly’ with non-Muslims. In my opinion, being friendly towards someone is not the same as being their friend.

[AntiKarateKid]

Before rabidly criticising the Quran's approach to slavery you have to be realistic.


When Muslims say the Quran is a practical book they mean it.

If the people in an area practice slavery widely, then chances are that their livelihoods or at least their daily lives depend upont he work that their slaves do. But at the same time they often view the slaves as lesser humans.


The Quran provides an ingenious way of destroying slavery. This is not an exhaustive list, I am not ultra knowledgeable.

Part 1: The attitude towards the slave.

Allah in the Quran forbids mistreatment of the slave and requires the people to care for them as they would their family. Thus neutralizing the abhuman aura cast upon them by other people and enabling them to be seen as humans too by narrow minded people. Ina ddition to this, the freeing of a slave is a form of repentance or charity in the Quran.

Part 2: The rights of a slave

Slaves generally have few to any rights and are often forever trapped in the position. The Quran guarantees slaves the ability to ransom themselves and the ability to get an education. These among other things grant the slave a way out of his position if he so wishes. In fact, many slaves rose to public office in the history of the Muslim dynasties.




This combination is guaranteed to wean even the most slave dependent society off of slavery without destroying the livelihoods of the people there. Whereas demanding an immediate end to slavery would be impossible for many societies.

So in the end, human dignity is preserved and freedom is provided. Anytime a new society comes in and makes use of slaves, these Quranic laws are here to guide them back through practicality.

[islamlover_girl]

Befor Islam slaverety was at its highst peak .Islam can`t forbid slaverety in a momment (nor any other religon) coz that would give a huge no. of people who has no houses ,famillies or money .Islam gradually elimineted slaverety if it enforce it all at once, it would've caused Islam to be an unsuccessful religion toward freeing slaves, and would certainly have broken Islam's system for ending slavery.

[islamlover_girl]

Islam urged the freeing of slaves. It made the freeing of the slave as helping the human being to be grateful for the splendid favours of Allah and assists him to attempt the steep path.

Allah (swt) says in quran:
“Yet he has not attempted (iqtiham) the steep path (‘aqabah). What will explain to you what the steep path (‘aqabah) is? It is freeing the neck.” [TMQ 90:11-13]

prophet mohammed said
“Whichever man frees a Muslim man, Allah ta’ala will liberate for each of his organ an organ from the Fire” (narrated by Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

Islam also gave the slave a method of freeing himself by entering into a manumission contract (mukatab) with his owner. This contract is where the slave agrees a value of money with his owner in exchange for his freedom in the future. Islam encouraged this contract.

Islam made the freeing of the slave as a compulsory atonement (kaffara) for many sins. So whoever kills a believer accidentally, his atonement is freeing a believing slave.

Allah (swt) says in quran:
“Never should a believer kill another believer, except by mistake. If anyone kills a believer by mistake he must free one Muslim slave and pay blood money (diyya) to the victim’s relatives, unless they charitably forgo it; if the victim belonged to a people at war with you but is a believer, then the compensation is only to free a believing slave; if he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty, then blood money should be handed over to his relatives, and a believing slave set free.” [TMQ 4:92]

and said

“Allah does not take you [to task] for what is thoughtless in your oaths, only for your binding oaths: the atonement for breaking an oath is to feed ten poor people with food equivalent to what you would normally give your own families, or to clothe them, or to set free a slave.” [TMQ 5:89]


“Those of you who say such a thing to their wives (i.e. ‘you are to me like my mother’s back’), then go back on what they have said, must free a slave before the couple may touch one another again.”


[TMQ 58:3]

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Abu Dawood reports on the authority of Al-Ma'roor bin Suwaid that he said:


"We entered Abu Thar's house at Al-Ribthah [7] and found him dressed in a garment called 'burd' (cloak), and found his slave dressed in an identical 'burd'. So we said : ' Why don't you, 0 Abu Thar, wear that 'burd' of your slaves so that you may have a full suit, and give him instead a less sumptuous garment ?' He replied : 'I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of God be upon him say:

" Those slaves are your brothers, only God gave you an upper hand over them. So let that who has his brother (i.e. slave) under him give him the same food he himself eats, and the same clothing as he himself wears. The master may not give his brother a task that is beyond his ability. If he does give him such task, let him lend him a hand."

Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29

more info;
http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...oubts-699.html


One could simply state that a 'slave' is a servant, we're not even permitted to call a slave as "'abdee" [my slave], because no-one is a slave to anyone except Allah. So someone could even argue that these are infact servants.


Islam did abolish slavery gradually, (until Queen Victoria brought it up once again) however - even during the times it was present, Islam gave equal rights to slaves, to the extent that there were slaves who were Kings! (a famous dynasty to prove this are the Mamluks.)



In regard to taking Jews and Christians as friends, the word awliyaa' [used in that verse] means someone who you take as a helper, protecter and supporter. In Islam, mankind is not split up into races or nationalities, but based on belief and disbelief only, and united on faith. Islam recognises that you should be good and treat justly those who do not wage war against you, or expel you from your homes, but that you do justice when others oppress you;

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

[Qur'an 60: 8-9]

[Whatsthepoint]

Signing and ransoming to free are connected/extended and thats how many jurist took it. Freeing for free didn't require signing a contract.

As for enslaving non-muslims that was only done in a war, and those non-muslims were enslaving too at that time.

No. I mean, slaves don't have the right to get themselves free if any rights at all by definition. But in Islam they underprivileged brothers as the hadith says, they have rights including the right to free themselves with compensation. Technically, this not a slave.

The point I'm trying to make is that Quran doesn't prescribe the ransom option but rather leaves it to the good will of the master.
So technically, this is a slave.

[Thinker]

Before rabidly criticising the Quran's approach to slavery you have to be realistic.

I think you are missing the point I am trying to make.

I believe it is likely that taking the enemies wives’ and children as slaves was common and accepted practice in the 7C in the Middle East. I believe that taking the enemies wives’ and children as slaves was common and accepted practice in many cultures prior to the 7C and even after that date. I am not criticising Muhammad for adopting this practice I am suggesting that God would not condone such a practice and I am suggesting that if God were to dictate a manual for life he would not include verses in that manual that condoned slavery hence the verses in the Qu’ran that do condone slavery could not have been dictated by God.

[Whatsthepoint]

Islam did abolish slavery gradually, (until Queen Victoria brought it up once again)

What????

[aamirsaab]

[snip]

In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America, states:
The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

This reply says that non-Muslims can be the friends of Muslims but Muslims can only be ‘friendly’ with non-Muslims. In my opinion, being friendly towards someone is not the same as being their friend.

I think you have misunderstood his wording. From the context, we can deduce what the scholar is saying: the Quran does not forbid muslims or non muslims from being friends. Indeed he does say friendly, but it's a case of hearing it and reading it.

If you were to hear someone say that, you'd understand it. Isolating it and simply reading it does not always evoke the intended meaning.

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you are missing the point I am trying to make.

I believe it is likely that taking the enemies wives’ and children as slaves was common and accepted practice in the 7C in the Middle East. I believe that taking the enemies wives’ and children as slaves was common and accepted practice in many cultures prior to the 7C and even after that date. I am not criticising Muhammad for adopting this practice I am suggesting that God would not condone such a practice and I am suggesting that if God were to dictate a manual for life he would not include verses in that manual that condoned slavery hence the verses in the Qu’ran that do condone slavery could not have been dictated by God.

Instead of these ambiguous attacks bring up a verse and we can help you one by one.

[Whatsthepoint]

Instead of these ambiguous attacks bring up a verse and we can help you one by one.

It is not debatable whether or not Islam condones slavery.
From what I can tell, thinker is opposed to the very idea of owning a human being and the existence of "underpriviliged borhters" as Chuck put it.

[AntiKarateKid]

That is not what I'm asking. I asked Thinker to bring up one by one the verses he has a problem with so the Islamic explanation can be given to him.

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you are missing the point I am trying to make.

I believe it is likely that taking the enemies wives’ and children as slaves was common and accepted practice in the 7C in the Middle East. I believe that taking the enemies wives’ and children as slaves was common and accepted practice in many cultures prior to the 7C and even after that date. I am not criticising Muhammad for adopting this practice I am suggesting that God would not condone such a practice and I am suggesting that if God were to dictate a manual for life he would not include verses in that manual that condoned slavery hence the verses in the Qu’ran that do condone slavery could not have been dictated by God.

Fun fact: The Prophet pbuh, his household, and friends freed in total 39,237 slaves.

Not bad for a man who "adopted" the slave taking practice.

[Chuck]

The point I'm trying to make is that Quran doesn't prescribe the ransom option but rather leaves it to the good will of the master.
So technically, this is a slave.

I does read the posts again. I'll try to make it more clearer.

First part of the verse [24:33] :

And if any of your slaves ask you for a deed in writing (for emancipation) give them such a deed;

Means if they ask their freedom give it to them in return of a deed in writing. This deed in writing was usually in the form of compensation as far as I know.

Second part:

If ye knew any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you…"

Second part says if master see any good in them, they should go further and give them something from them (wealth) which Allah has given to them.

[Whatsthepoint]

Sorry, I thought I emntioned this but I didn't. the verse you posted has a slightly different puncuation that changes the whole thing.
If you check this site:
http://www.internetmosque.net/read/e...meaning/24/33/
You'll find that all translations suggest that the master can let them ransom themselves, if he finds good in them.

[Thinker]

That is not what I'm asking. I asked Thinker to bring up one by one the verses he has a problem with so the Islamic explanation can be given to him.

Again, I think you’re missing my point. I don’t (in this instance) have a problem with any verse. The author of this thread made a statement, from that followed a debate on the truth of that statement. One of the arguments I used to support my premises was that God would not condone slavery and if God were to dictate a manual for life he would not include verses in that manual that condoned slavery hence the verses in the Qu’ran that do condone slavery could not have been dictated by God.

In short, there are verses in the Qu’ran that condone slavery (fact). There are stories amongst the hadith explaining that, for a large part, those slaves were the wives and children of slain enemy combatants (fact). For the Qu’ran to condone slavery for any reason is wrong and in this example of individuals simply because you were married to or the child of an enemy combatant - that cannot be just - God must be just - consequently God cannot have dictated those verses.

[AntiKarateKid]

It is not debatable whether or not Islam condones slavery.
From what I can tell, thinker is opposed to the very idea of owning a human being and the existence of "underpriviliged borhters" as Chuck put it.

On top of that a text does not need to shout outright NO SLAVERY. For it to be against it.

As you can see from the verses brother Chuck provided AMONG others out there, the Quran provides many ways to end slavery and raise the standard of living for slaves.


For Pete's sake a Muslim is supposed to grant a slave freedom if they request it and even give them farewell gifts if they want. And while the person is a slave they are to be taken care of by their master in sickness and health and be treated as brothers.


What more do you want??????

[AntiKarateKid]

Again, I think you’re missing my point. I don’t (in this instance) have a problem with any verse. The author of this thread made a statement, from that followed a debate on the truth of that statement. One of the arguments I used to support my premises was that God would not condone slavery and if God were to dictate a manual for life he would not include verses in that manual that condoned slavery hence the verses in the Qu’ran that do condone slavery could not have been dictated by God.

In short, there are verses in the Qu’ran that condone slavery (fact). There are stories amongst the hadith explaining that, for a large part, those slaves were the wives and children of slain enemy combatants (fact). For the Qu’ran to condone slavery for any reason is wrong and in this example of individuals simply because you were married to or the child of an enemy combatant - that cannot be just - God must be just - consequently God cannot have dictated those verses.

Dude you are flogging a strawman. Look at the rules the Quran gives for slaves. You are getting ridiculous.

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/slav4.htm

Read that. This discussion is done.

[Chuck]

Sorry, I thought I emntioned this but I didn't. the verse you posted has a slightly different puncuation that changes the whole thing.
If you check this site:
http://www.internetmosque.net/read/e...meaning/24/33/
You'll find that all translations suggest that the master can let them ransom themselves, if he finds good in them.

Yusuf Ali translation is normally considered one with the closest meaning. Other translations adding that if you see good in them, and imo, you are nitpicking :D as I don't see this as a problem with overall instructions given on this issue to believers on this issue.

Anyway, Asad translation goes in detail and explains it linguistically and with context which is at the bottom of your link. I'll quote it:

And as for those who are unable to marry, [I.e., because of poverty or because they cannot find a suitable mate, or for any other personal reason.] let them live in continence until God grants them sufficiency out of His bounty, And if any of those whom you rightfully possess [Lit., "whom your right hands possess", i.e., male or female slaves.] desire [to obtain] a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you are aware of any good in them: [The noun kitab is, in this context, an equivalent of kitabah or mukatabah (lit., "mutual agreement in writing"), a juridical term signifying a "deed of freedom" or "of manumission" executed on the basis of an agreement between a slave and his or her owner, to the effect that the slave undertakes to purchase his or her freedom for an equitable sum of money payable in installments before or after the manumission, or, alternatively, by rendering a clearly specified service or services to his or her owner. With this end in view, the slave is legally entitled to engage in any legitimate, gainful work or to obtain the necessary sum of money by any other lawful means (e.g., through a loan or a gift from a third person). In view of the imperative form of the verb katibuhum ("write it out for them"), the deed of manumission cannot be refused by the owner, the only pre-condition being an evidence - to be established, if necessary, by an unbiased arbiter or arbiters - of the slave's good character and ability to fulfill his or her contractual obligations. The stipulation that such a deed of manumission may not he refused, and the establishment of precise juridical directives to this end, clearly indicates that Islamic Law has from its very beginning aimed at an abolition of slavery as a social institution, and that its prohibition in modern times constitutes no more than a final implementation of that aim. (See also next note, as well as note on 2:177.) and give them [their share of the wealth of God which He has given you. [According to all the authorities, this relates (a) to a moral obligation on the part of the owner to promote the slave's efforts to obtain the necessary revenues by helping him or her to achieve an independent economic status and/or by remitting part of the agreed-upon compensation, and (b) to the obligation of the state treasury (bayt al-mal) to finance the freeing of slaves in accordance with the Quranic principle - enunciated in 9:60 - that the revenues obtained through the obligatory tax called zakah are to be utilized, among other purposes, "for the freeing of human beings from bondage" (fi r-riqab, an expression explained in note on 2:177). Hence, Zamakhshari holds that the above clause is addressed not merely to persons owning slaves but to the community as a whole - The expression "the wealth of God" contains an allusion to the principle that "God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions, promising them paradise in return" 9:111 - implying that all of man's possessions are vested in God, and that man is entitled to no more than their usufruct.] And do not, in order to gain [Lit., "so that you might seek out" or "endeavour to attain to".] some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into *****dom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; [Lit., "if they desire protection against unchastity (tahassun)", i.e., through marriage (cf. the expression muhsanat as used in 4:24). Most of the classical commentators are of the opinion that the term fatayat ("maidens") denotes here "slave-girls": an assumption which is fully warranted by the context hence, the above verse reiterates the prohibition of concubinage by explicitly describing it as "*****dom" (bigha).] and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled [to submit in their helplessness], God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!

[Whatsthepoint]

Yusuf Ali translation is normally considered one with the closest meaning. Other translations adding that if you see good in them, and imo, you are nitpicking :D as I don't see this as a problem with overall instructions given on this issue to believers on this issue.

Anyway, Asad translation goes in detail and explains it linguistically and with context which is at the bottom of your link. I'll quote it:

Yusuf Ali's translation also contains the "if you see god in them" clause.
I don't know where Asad found the information about a third person judging the slave's goodness, I don't think there's a direct verse or hadith about it, but it could derive form the islamic law as such.
And I may be nitpicking but so is everyone else in here. What I've been trying to say all along is that no one should be born a slave and no on should have to pay ransom for his or her freedom. Slaves may be treated nicely but that doesn't change the issue of slavery itself.

[Thinker]

Dude you are flogging a strawman. Look at the rules the Quran gives for slaves. You are getting ridiculous.

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/slav4.htm

Read that. This discussion is done.

I have read the script at the link you gave and of course it is a sanatised version put out to try and counter this unnacceptable aspect of the Qu’ran.

Below is the wikipedia version which, I would suggest, is unbiased. And please note that all references to Muhammed freeing slaves was only after they converted to Islam - (no conversion - no freedom).

Slavery in the Qur'an ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_a...n_the_Qur.27an )

The Qur'an includes multiple references to slaves, slave women, slave concubinage, and the freeing of slaves. It accepts the institution of slavery. It may be noted that the word 'abd' (slave) is rarely used, being more commonly replaced by some periphrasis such as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands own"). The Qur'an recognizes the basic inequality between master and slave and the rights of the former over the latter. The historian Bruschvig states that from a spiritual perspective, "the slave has the same value as the free man, and the same eternity is in store for his soul; in this earthly life, failing emancipation, there remains the fact of his inferior status, to which he must piously resign himself."[3] [15] The Qur'an also recognizes concubinage.[16][17] A master may make his female slave as his concubine and, if she is a Muslim, he can marry her. Abstinence however is said to be a better choice.[2] The Qur'an urges, without commanding, kindness to the slave[18] and recommends, their liberation by purchase or manumission. The freeing of slaves is recommended both for the expiation of sins[19] and as an act of simple benevolence.[20] It exhorts masters to allow slaves to earn or purchase their own freedom (manumission contracts)."[16]
Slaves are mentioned in at least twenty-nine verses of the Qur'an, most of these are Medinan and refer to the legal status of slaves. The legal material on slavery in the Qur'an is largely restricted to manumission and sexual relations.[2] According to Sikainga, the Qur'anic references to slavery as mainly contain "broad and general propositions of an ethical nature rather than specific legal formulations."[21]
The Quran accepts the distinction between slave and free as part of the natural order and uses this distinction as an example of God's grace,[22] regarding this discrimination between human beings as in accordance with the divinely-established order of things.[2][23] "The Qur'an, however, does not consider slaves to be mere chattel; their humanity is directly addressed in references to their beliefs,[24] their desire for manumission and their feelings about being forced into prostitution.[25] In one case, the Qur'an refers to master and slave with the same word, rajul. Later interpreters presume slaves to be spiritual equals of free Muslims. For example,[26] urges believers to marry 'believing maids that your right hands own' and then states: "The one of you is as the other," which the Jalaalayn interpret as "You and they are equal in faith, so do not refrain from marrying them." The human aspect of slaves is further reinforced by reference to them as members of the private household, sometimes along with wives or children.[2] Pious exhortations from jurists to free men to address their slaves by such euphemistic terms as "my boy" and "my girl" stemmed from the belief that God, not their masters, was responsible for the slave's status.[27]
There are many common features between the institution of slavery in the Qur'an and that of neighboring cultures. However, the Qur'anic institution had some unique new features.[2] Bernard Lewis states that the Qur'anic legislation brought two major changes to ancient slavery which were to have far-reaching effects: presumption of freedom, and the ban on the enslavement of free persons except in strictly defined circumstances.[16] According to Brockopp, the idea of using alms for the manumission of slaves appears to be unique to the Qur'an, assuming the traditional interpretation of verses [Qur'an 2:177] and [Qur'an 9:60]. Similarly, the practice of freeing slaves in atonment for certain sins appears to be introduced by the Qur'an (but compare Exod 21:26-7).[2] The forced prostitution of female slaves, a Near Eastern custom of great antiquity, is condemned in the Qur'an.[14][28]Murray Gordon notes that this ban is "of no small significance."[29] Brockopp writes: "Other cultures limit a master's right to harm a slave but few exhort masters to treat their slaves kindly, and the placement of slaves in the same category as other weak members of society who deserve protection is unknown outside the Qur'an. The unique contribution of the Qur'an, then, is to be found in its emphasis on the place of slaves in society and society's responsibility toward the slave, perhaps the most progressive legislation on slavery in its time."[2]
Muhammad's traditions
The Islamic prophet Muhammad encouraged manumission of slaves, even if one had to purchase them first. On many occasions, Muhammad's companions, at his direction, freed slaves in abundance. Muhammad personally freed 63 slaves, and his wife Aisha freed 67.[30] In total his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves.[31] The most notable of Muhammad's slaves were: Safiyya bint Huyayy, whom he freed and married; Maria al-Qibtiyya, given to Muhammad by a Byzantine official, whom he freed and who may have become his wife;[32] Sirin, Maria's sister, whom he freed and married to the poet Hassan ibn Thabit[33] and Zayd ibn Harithah, whom Muhammad freed and adopted as a son.[3

[Chuck]

Yusuf Ali's translation also contains the "if you see god in them" clause.
I don't know where Asad found the information about a third person judging the slave's goodness, I don't think there's a direct verse or hadith about it, but it could derive form the islamic law as such.
And I may be nitpicking but so is everyone else in here.

Yusuf Ali puts it in second part of the verse. But I'll go with Asad's translation and explanation, he spent a great time studying classical Arabic and hadiths, and he understood the grammatical depth of Semitic languages. As for the third party, it is overall instruction on the issue. If slave is not happy he can go to authority and get his/her freedom. If you don't have your negativity, unbiased arbitrator would be understandable to you. Quran doesn't have to put every detail in the verse that were already used in the society. Al though, Quran does mention arbitration in other places for other things, it is natural they would be extended over to other similar issues and Quran doesn't have to put it every time for every situation.

What I've been trying to say all along is that no one should be born a slave and no on should have to pay ransom for his or her freedom. Slaves may be treated nicely but that doesn't change the issue of slavery itself.

And where would freed slaves live, earn their livelihood, etc... if they were all freed abruptly. Main issue was providing their rights and systematic freeing of slaves who were capable of making their own living.

[Whatsthepoint]

Yusuf Ali puts it in second part of the verse. But I'll go with Asad's translation and explanation, he spent a great time studying classical Arabic and hadiths, and he understood the grammatical depth of Semitic languages. As for the third party, it is overall instruction on the issue. If slave is not happy he can go to authority and get his/her freedom. If you don't have your negativity, unbiased arbitrator would be understandable to you. Quran doesn't have to put every detail in the verse that were already used in the society. Al though, Quran does mention arbitration in other places for other things, it is natural they would be extended over to other similar issues and Quran doesn't have to put it every time for every situation.


And where would freed slaves live, earn their livelihood, etc... if they were all freed abruptly. Main issue was providing their rights and systematic freeing of slaves who were capable of making their own living.

1. Ok, fair enough.
2. Well, they could stay with their master, but but be free and payed for their work. How does having to pay for freedom help a slave to get a house, earn their livelihood?
And as Thinker stated, apparently Muhammad only freed slaves after they converted to Islam, so it doesn't seem to me it was about freeing ones capable of making their own living.

[Chuck]

2. Well, they could stay with their master, but but be free and payed for their work.

That was one way that was used were it was possible. But paying for work depends on the type of economy. Even in the definition of servants they are not always paid for their work. Food, shelter, and clothing is a form of payment depending on the economy.

How does having to pay for freedom help a slave to get a house, earn their livelihood?

If slave thinks he/she can they can ask to let go.

[Whatsthepoint]

That was one way that was used were it was possible. But paying for work depends on the type of economy. Even in the definition of servants they are not always paid for their work. Food, shelter, and clothing is a form of payment depending on the economy.


If slave thinks he/she can they can ask to let go.

You said several isues would have arisen if all slaves had been freed abrubtly, bt I don't see why this would have the case. tehc apable ons could live as free men, even as servants if they wanted, whereas the less capable ones could stay with their masters and work in order to get food, clothing etc. Nothing would change except they'd be free!
what are you saying? They don't need to pay the ransom?

[Chuck]

But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

Above verse is came for whom? Slave-girls converted to Islam but that were under non-muslims in Madina?

[Chuck]

You said several isues would have arisen if all slaves had been freed abrubtly, bt I don't see why this would have the case. tehc apable ons could live as free men, even as servants if they wanted, whereas the less capable ones could stay with their masters and work in order to get food, clothing etc. Nothing would change except they'd be free!
what are you saying? They don't need to pay the ransom?

Well hadiths prophet (p) told people not call them slaves. Thats what I've been saying there is not much difference. Ransom issue is acceptable in that kind of economy, because if a person working in the house leaving it can cause problem for a household. But if person working house doesn't want to leave, then there is no point in asking to set him free and he/she will work for free (it is same thing).

[AntiKarateKid]

I have read the script at the link you gave and of course it is a sanatised version put out to try and counter this unnacceptable aspect of the Qu’ran.

Below is the wikipedia version which, I would suggest, is unbiased. And please note that all references to Muhammed freeing slaves was only after they converted to Islam - (no conversion - no freedom).

Slavery in the Qur'an ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_a...n_the_Qur.27an )

The Qur'an includes multiple references to slaves, slave women, slave concubinage, and the freeing of slaves. It accepts the institution of slavery. It may be noted that the word 'abd' (slave) is rarely used, being more commonly replaced by some periphrasis such as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands own"). The Qur'an recognizes the basic inequality between master and slave and the rights of the former over the latter. The historian Bruschvig states that from a spiritual perspective, "the slave has the same value as the free man, and the same eternity is in store for his soul; in this earthly life, failing emancipation, there remains the fact of his inferior status, to which he must piously resign himself."[3] [15] The Qur'an also recognizes concubinage.[16][17] A master may make his female slave as his concubine and, if she is a Muslim, he can marry her. Abstinence however is said to be a better choice.[2] The Qur'an urges, without commanding, kindness to the slave[18] and recommends, their liberation by purchase or manumission. The freeing of slaves is recommended both for the expiation of sins[19] and as an act of simple benevolence.[20] It exhorts masters to allow slaves to earn or purchase their own freedom (manumission contracts)."[16]
Slaves are mentioned in at least twenty-nine verses of the Qur'an, most of these are Medinan and refer to the legal status of slaves. The legal material on slavery in the Qur'an is largely restricted to manumission and sexual relations.[2] According to Sikainga, the Qur'anic references to slavery as mainly contain "broad and general propositions of an ethical nature rather than specific legal formulations."[21]
The Quran accepts the distinction between slave and free as part of the natural order and uses this distinction as an example of God's grace,[22] regarding this discrimination between human beings as in accordance with the divinely-established order of things.[2][23] "The Qur'an, however, does not consider slaves to be mere chattel; their humanity is directly addressed in references to their beliefs,[24] their desire for manumission and their feelings about being forced into prostitution.[25] In one case, the Qur'an refers to master and slave with the same word, rajul. Later interpreters presume slaves to be spiritual equals of free Muslims. For example,[26] urges believers to marry 'believing maids that your right hands own' and then states: "The one of you is as the other," which the Jalaalayn interpret as "You and they are equal in faith, so do not refrain from marrying them." The human aspect of slaves is further reinforced by reference to them as members of the private household, sometimes along with wives or children.[2] Pious exhortations from jurists to free men to address their slaves by such euphemistic terms as "my boy" and "my girl" stemmed from the belief that God, not their masters, was responsible for the slave's status.[27]
There are many common features between the institution of slavery in the Qur'an and that of neighboring cultures. However, the Qur'anic institution had some unique new features.[2] Bernard Lewis states that the Qur'anic legislation brought two major changes to ancient slavery which were to have far-reaching effects: presumption of freedom, and the ban on the enslavement of free persons except in strictly defined circumstances.[16] According to Brockopp, the idea of using alms for the manumission of slaves appears to be unique to the Qur'an, assuming the traditional interpretation of verses [Qur'an 2:177] and [Qur'an 9:60]. Similarly, the practice of freeing slaves in atonment for certain sins appears to be introduced by the Qur'an (but compare Exod 21:26-7).[2] The forced prostitution of female slaves, a Near Eastern custom of great antiquity, is condemned in the Qur'an.[14][28]Murray Gordon notes that this ban is "of no small significance."[29] Brockopp writes: "Other cultures limit a master's right to harm a slave but few exhort masters to treat their slaves kindly, and the placement of slaves in the same category as other weak members of society who deserve protection is unknown outside the Qur'an. The unique contribution of the Qur'an, then, is to be found in its emphasis on the place of slaves in society and society's responsibility toward the slave, perhaps the most progressive legislation on slavery in its time."[2]
Muhammad's traditions
The Islamic prophet Muhammad encouraged manumission of slaves, even if one had to purchase them first. On many occasions, Muhammad's companions, at his direction, freed slaves in abundance. Muhammad personally freed 63 slaves, and his wife Aisha freed 67.[30] In total his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves.[31] The most notable of Muhammad's slaves were: Safiyya bint Huyayy, whom he freed and married; Maria al-Qibtiyya, given to Muhammad by a Byzantine official, whom he freed and who may have become his wife;[32] Sirin, Maria's sister, whom he freed and married to the poet Hassan ibn Thabit[33] and Zayd ibn Harithah, whom Muhammad freed and adopted as a son.[3

A sanitized version?


So let me get this straight. You come here and inquire about the Islamic response to your slavery question. You then:

1. Get an Islamic answer
2. Dismiss it as a sanitized version and press your OWN opinion of the issue
3. Cite Wikipedia, which is available for ANYONE, scholar or not, as your PREFERRED answer which supports your own view.



So If you ask for our response, then dismiss our response, why ask for it in the first place?

Islam solves slavery in the most practical manner which is what matters if you want to see real life solutions.

[Thinker]

A sanitized version?


So let me get this straight. You come here and inquire about the Islamic response to your slavery question. You then:

1. Get an Islamic answer
2. Dismiss it as a sanitized version and press your OWN opinion of the issue
3. Cite Wikipedia, which is available for ANYONE, scholar or not, as your PREFERRED answer which supports your own view.



So If you ask for our response, then dismiss our response, why ask for it in the first place?

Islam solves slavery in the most practical manner which is what matters if you want to see real life solutions.

I accept your criticism; wikipedia has its place and value but for the discussion here I accept it’s not the most appropriate.
I am keen to stay on topic and the topic isn’t about how many slave Muhammad freed, in my view, it’s about whether God would have condoned the practice. It is clear that Muhammad enslaved people, kept slaves and bought and sold slaves, I believe he also married a few – that’s all fact. The question is, under those circumstances, when God was dictating verses on how people should lead their lives, for God to condone such practice contradicts the definition of God.

See here an hadith and tell me what crime the child in question did to make it right that he/she should be enslaved.

Book 11, Number 2126:
Narrated Basrah:
A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet). The Prophet said: She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her (according to the version of al-Hasan). The version of Ibn AbusSari has: You people, flog her, or inflict hard punishment on her.

[Whatsthepoint]

Islam solves slavery in the most practical manner which is what matters if you want to see real life solutions.

Real life solutions being widespread slave trade until the 19th century and modern slavery in countries like Mauritania and the Sudan.

[Whatsthepoint]

Well hadiths prophet (p) told people not call them slaves. Thats what I've been saying there is not much difference. Ransom issue is acceptable in that kind of economy, because if a person working in the house leaving it can cause problem for a household. But if person working house doesn't want to leave, then there is no point in asking to set him free and he/she will work for free (it is same thing).

Why does god care more about the well being of a household, which is not really an issue, they can simply hire a new servant, than the freedom of an individual?

[AntiKarateKid]

I accept your criticism; wikipedia has its place and value but for the discussion here I accept it’s not the most appropriate.
I am keen to stay on topic and the topic isn’t about how many slave Muhammad freed, in my view, it’s about whether God would have condoned the practice. It is clear that Muhammad enslaved people, kept slaves and bought and sold slaves, I believe he also married a few – that’s all fact. The question is, under those circumstances, when God was dictating verses on how people should lead their lives, for God to condone such practice contradicts the definition of God.

See here an hadith and tell me what crime the child in question did to make it right that he/she should be enslaved.

Book 11, Number 2126:
Narrated Basrah:
A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet). The Prophet said: She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her (according to the version of al-Hasan). The version of Ibn AbusSari has: You people, flog her, or inflict hard punishment on her.

It seems like you are confusing the western concept of slavery and their treatment with what the Quran calls slavery. Slave is a strange word to give a child whom you are responsible to take care of in health and sickness. Whom you are to provide an education. Whom you are to treat like a member of the family. And who, if they request freedom, you are to free and even give parting gifts if you so desire. I'd say the child got a good deal instead of being thrown in a dingy orphanage with noone to take personal care of them.






In addition to this, do you realize what he did with those slaves? They were more akin to the maids and butlers we have in present time. But he treated them better than people in modern times even treat their maids.

1. He never yelled at them.
2. He provided for them all the necessities of life and comfort.
3. He was friends with them and freed as many as he could after he bought them. He took their advice and accepted them as family.
4. In fact he bought slaves jsut to free them too.
5. he never overworked them at all and was always benevolent and fair to them and helped them get an education and learn islam too
6. If they asked for freedom he gave it but many preferred to stay with him while being servants and even after being free




QURANIC SLAVERY ISNT EVEN REAL SLAVERY! WHAT IS THE BAD PART HERE?????????????

Point out where these people are being degraded.


Face it. This discussion is not about the concept of slavery in Islam. It is about your dislike of the word slavery, your ideas on what that means, and your inability to comprehend that those negative ideas are not present in the way the Quran treats these slaves, maids, workers or whatever you want to call them.

[AntiKarateKid]

After being done with my above post, I hope you realize that a child deemed a ''slave" in Islam is basically treated like an adopted child with the burden of care that is assigned to the owner.

A woman or man deemed a "slave" is basically a member of the family and loses no honor or pride and is free to leave anytime they want.




You see the success of Islam? It has destroyed slavery by blurring the line between slave and family so much so that a man who adheres to the principles of the Prophet pbuh could pass his slave off as his child or sibling to a stranger.

There are other ways of breaking the shackels of slavery rather than brute force.

[Imam]

See here an hadith and tell me what crime the child in question did to make it right that he/she should be enslaved.

Book 11, Number 2126:
Narrated Basrah:
A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet). The Prophet said: She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her (according to the version of al-Hasan). The version of Ibn AbusSari has: You people, flog her, or inflict hard punishment on her.

Peace

Look what is written regarding such hadith by the classic scholars:


Arabic:
قَالَ الْحَافِظ شَمْس الدِّين اِبْن الْقَيِّم رَحِمَهُ اللَّه : ‏
‏هَذَا الْحَدِيث قَدْ اُضْطُرِبَ فِي سَنَده وَحُكْمه , وَاسْم الصَّحَابِيّ رَاوِيه . فَقِيلَ : بَصْرَة بِالْبَاءِ الْمُوَحَّدَة وَالصَّاد الْمُهْمَلَة , وَقِيلَ نَضْرَة : بِالنُّونِ الْمَفْتُوحَة وَالضَّاد الْمُعْجَمَة وَقِيلَ : نَضْلَة , بِالنُّونِ وَالضَّاد الْمُعْجَمَة وَاللَّام , وَقِيلَ : بُسْرَة بِالْبَاءِ الْمُوَحَّدَة وَالسِّين الْمُهْمَلَة وَقِيلَ : نَضْرَة بْن أَكْثَم الْخُزَاعِيّ , وَقِيلَ : الْأَنْصَارِيّ , وَذَكَرَ بَعْضهمْ : أَنَّهُ بَصْرَة بْن أَبِي بَصْرَة الْغِفَارِيُّ , وَوَهِمَ قَائِله . وَقِيلَ بَصْرَة هَذَا مَجْهُول , وَلَهُ عِلَّة عَجِيبَة , وَهِيَ أَنَّهُ حَدِيث يَرْوِيه اِبْن جُرَيْجٍ عَنْ صَفْوَان بْن سُلَيْمٍ عَنْ سَعِيد بْن الْمُسَيِّب عَنْ رَجُل مِنْ الْأَنْصَار . وَابْن جُرَيْجٍ لَمْ يَسْمَعهُ مِنْ صَفْوَان , إِنَّمَا رَوَاهُ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيم بْن مُحَمَّد بْن أَبِي يَحْيَى الْأَسْلَمِيّ عَنْ صَفْوَان , وَإِبْرَاهِيم هَذَا مَتْرُوك الْحَدِيث : تَرَكَهُ أَحْمَد بْن حَنْبَل وَيَحْيَى بْن مَعِين وَابْن الْمُبَارَك , وَأَبُو حَاتِم وَأَبُو زُرْعَة الرَّازِيَّانِ وَغَيْرهمْ ! وَسُئِلَ عَنْهُ مَالِك بْن أَنَس : أَكَانَ ثِقَة ؟ فَقَالَ : لَا , وَلَا فِي دِينه . ‏
‏وَلَهُ عِلَّة أُخْرَى : وَهِيَ أَنَّ الْمَعْرُوف أَنَّهُ إِنَّمَا يُرْوَى مُرْسَلًا عَنْ سَعِيد بْن الْمُسَيِّب عَنْ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ , كَذَا رَوَاهُ قَتَادَة وَيَزِيد بْن نُعَيْم وَعَطَاء الْخُرَاسَانِيّ . كُلّهمْ عَنْ سَعِيد عَنْ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ . ذَكَرَ عَبْد الْحَقّ هَذَيْنِ التَّعْلِيلَيْنِ , ثُمَّ قَالَ : وَالْإِرْسَال هُوَ الصَّحِيح .

English:

This hadith has problems in its chain of narrators (isnad),the name of its narrator is uncertain....it is said to be called (basra) or (nadra) or (nadla) or (nadra bin aktham alkhoza3i) or (alansari).....
others said he may be (basra ben abi basra alghafari)....
it is said that this (Basra) is unknown ..
the hadith has astonishing problem,it is the fact that it was narrated by Ibn Gareeh,who didnt hear Safwaan but heard it from Ibrahimbin safwaan...
and this Ibrahim is untrustworthy and been rejected by the scholars.......


http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...=4&IMAGE#Desc2

[Chuck]

Why does god care more about the well being of a household, which is not really an issue, they can simply hire a new servant, than the freedom of an individual?

Where they would have hired new one? Slaves who were leaving wouldn't need to work as servant, who did need they weren't leaving.

It was practical for that times socio-economic situation. People who could freed slaves without anything at all. Many companions of prophet went extra mile and freed slaves paying out of their pocket for other people even if it meant that they had to spend everything they had. But many other people couldn't do that. There was no concept of paying for house work at that time, and poorer families would have suffered the most. It was a practical approach suited for that socio-economic situation.

[Thinker]

It seems like you are confusing the western concept of slavery and their treatment with what the Quran calls slavery. Slave is a strange word to give a child whom you are responsible to take care of in health and sickness. Whom you are to provide an education. Whom you are to treat like a member of the family. And who, if they request freedom, you are to free and even give parting gifts if you so desire. I'd say the child got a good deal instead of being thrown in a dingy orphanage with noone to take personal care of them.

Your description of slavery makes it look quite appealing, I’ll bet there were kids back then who asked their parents “mum why can’t I be a slave, Ahmed’s a slave and he get’s everything”

Below is IslamQ&A view of the subject

Slavery in Islam was originally prescribed because of Kufr. If there is jihaad between the Muslims and the kuffaar, and a number of kuffaar are taken prisoner, the commander is given the choice of sharing them out, doing them a favour (by releasing them) or paying their ransom. If they are shared out as part of the booty, they become slaves, subject to the laws governing products which may be sold. But at the same time, Islam urges the freeing of slaves and makes doing so an act of expiation for numerous sins. In principle, slavery is not something that is desirable; what is encouraged in Islam is the freeing of slaves. If a woman is enslaved according to sharee’ah, it is permissible for her master to have intercourse with her. This is unlike prostitution or zinaa, which Islam has forbidden as a precaution against mixing lineages and other reasons for which it is forbidden. There is no comparison between the two, because if a slave woman becomes pregnant, the child belongs to the master and she becomes free when he dies, because she has become the mother of the master’s child (umm walad), and is subject to the same rulings as a wife. And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/5707/slave

[AntiKarateKid]

Your description of slavery makes it look quite appealing, I’ll bet there were kids back then who asked their parents “mum why can’t I be a slave, Ahmed’s a slave and he get’s everything”

Below is IslamQ&A view of the subject

Slavery in Islam was originally prescribed because of Kufr. If there is jihaad between the Muslims and the kuffaar, and a number of kuffaar are taken prisoner, the commander is given the choice of sharing them out, doing them a favour (by releasing them) or paying their ransom. If they are shared out as part of the booty, they become slaves, subject to the laws governing products which may be sold. But at the same time, Islam urges the freeing of slaves and makes doing so an act of expiation for numerous sins. In principle, slavery is not something that is desirable; what is encouraged in Islam is the freeing of slaves. If a woman is enslaved according to sharee’ah, it is permissible for her master to have intercourse with her. This is unlike prostitution or zinaa, which Islam has forbidden as a precaution against mixing lineages and other reasons for which it is forbidden. There is no comparison between the two, because if a slave woman becomes pregnant, the child belongs to the master and she becomes free when he dies, because she has become the mother of the master’s child (umm walad), and is subject to the same rulings as a wife. And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/5707/slave

You are being silly here Thinker. First you think that slavery in Islam is the worst thing that can happen to a human but when we show you that that is far from the truth, you mock it?

A man is always supposed to take care of his children so I'm not sure why any child would ask that? If a child does, that does not show the superiority of slavery over anything, just that the parent of that child is failing in his/her duty towards them.