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greenshirt
05-06-2009, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IHaveADream
Is it fair that according to sharia law, a muslim that leaves the religion should be killed.
yes it is fair.

you have to note that we dont believe this is our only life. we place such an importance on the afterlife which is ETERNAL. i would rather someone be put to death than spread fitnah that can lead people to leave islam which would cause a much harsher punishment in the next life.
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IHaveADream
05-06-2009, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenshirt
yes it is fair.

you have to note that we dont believe this is our only life. we place such an importance on the afterlife which is ETERNAL. i would rather someone be put to death than spread fitnah that can lead people to leave islam which would cause a much harsher punishment in the next life.
Fair, but do you agree that it is not a legitimate stance to take this as a politicl position, as this pretty much makes any muslim child essentially a "slave" to their religion as if they choose not to believe it they will be put to death by the state.
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IHaveADream
05-06-2009, 02:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I think you should grant everyone here some courtesy given how much time was expanded the span of 30+ pages and read all that was written along with the links included? I mean a simple response is given already not two posts ago!


all the best
Yes, I am going to read all that just so I can post a question...
Reply

جوري
05-06-2009, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IHaveADream
Yes, I am going to read all that just so I can post a question...
If the question has been answered and repeatedly, then it is indeed prudent to browse the responses.. Do you have a narcissistic personality disorder or just enjoy spamming?
Do read FAQ as well (which should also cover the anti-Islamic) youtube links..
Do you think people can't google anti-Islamic rhetoric for themselves?

all the best
Reply

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IHaveADream
05-06-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
If the question has been answered and repeatedly, then it is indeed prudent to browse the responses.. Do you have a narcissistic personality disorder or just enjoy spamming?
Do read FAQ as well (which should also cover the anti-Islamic) youtube links..
Do you think people can't google anti-Islamic rhetoric for themselves?

all the best
Ok, so if someone is rebutting a point made by islam, it is anti-islamic? It seems you are uncomfortable with hearing dissenting voices and treat them as your inferiors, but that is what I would expect from someone with an obvious "holier than thou" attitude.
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جوري
05-06-2009, 03:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IHaveADream
Ok, so if someone is rebutting a point made by islam, it is anti-islamic?
Not at all, what I find objectionable however, is making a statement such as 'he makes many mistakes' with bravado and then list a link to do your work for you.. are you not able to articulate his errors for yourself so you delegate the job to another? The whole point of being so vanguard is exhibiting a free thought not simply parroting an opposing thought -- do you think you are capable of those?
It seems you are uncomfortable with hearing dissenting voices and treat them as your inferiors, but that is what I would expect from someone with an obvious "holier than thou" attitude.
I think you are exhibiting a bit of cognitive conservatism admixed with a temper tantrum. I am not big on psychology personally, but have you heard of projection? If you feel inferior, then it is something you need to resolve on your own private time. We are not here to handle you with kid gloves until such a time your thoughts, your temperament, and your writing acquire a more mature appeal..


all the best
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Pomak
05-06-2009, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IHaveADream
Is it fair that according to sharia law, a muslim that leaves the religion should be killed.
According to one interpretation to Shariah it is. In the majority of pre-modern times the interpretation which says apostasy=death was a majority opinion, with a minority opinion that apostasy can not be judged on earth and that in treason can you execute a person.

Most modern/post modern applications of shariah follow the minority opinion.

In essence the problem with this issue is that modern muslim majority states are national (secular) states. They are not based on the principal of the "ummah". With the principal of the "ummah state" the place where apostasy and treason begin and end is blurred because it is a religious state.

format_quote Originally Posted by greenshirt
yes it is fair.

you have to note that we dont believe this is our only life. we place such an importance on the afterlife which is ETERNAL. i would rather someone be put to death than spread fitnah that can lead people to leave islam which would cause a much harsher punishment in the next life.
This is a secondary argument. It justifies the use of capital punishment rather than apostasy per se.
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Hugo
05-06-2009, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings. It is important to note that when deriving evidence in Islam, we must look at the Qur'an and Hadeeth together, never exclusively. It is a major failing to solely rely on the Qur'an.

Hugo - yes so one cannot understand what God himself has said unless we have the hadeeth? I know this to be the Muslim position but it is not a very convincing one is it and leave open the door to preferring the hadeeth to what God has said. Surely, God can be clear?

Another important rule in understanding Islamic law is that the ambiguous (if that is an appropriate word) information is understood in light of the clear - not the other way round. Thus, I wonder how Professor Charfi would understand the following explicit Hadeeth (from the link given by sister Skye),

Hugo - Professor Chafi understands this link very well but he points out that it is the only such link, its is not a strong hadeeth and it was made by someone who was a 12 years old boy at the time he heard it. Hardly enough to start killing people for a change of religion is it?

"Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud)

I think there is a misunderstanding here regarding what Shariah is. I recommend the following video which sheds light on this specific issue - it begins from 3:45 onwards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1e0P...eature=related

And I think the whole lecture (to be found on youtube) may very well be relevant to this thread.

Peace.
Thank you for the link I will try to look at it but I am familiar with Nawami's manual and Al-Misro's Reliance of the traveller. I would never consider myself an expert but Professor Charfi is.
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doorster
05-06-2009, 05:10 PM
"Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud)
hm.... (what does Quran say about that, something quite different! methinks!)

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Uthman
05-06-2009, 05:43 PM
:sl: akhee doorster
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
hm.... (what does Quran say about that, something quite different! methinks!)
Did you visit this link provided by sister Gossamer Sky? http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html

It helps us to understand the hadith in it's proper context. :)

:w:
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doorster
05-06-2009, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
:sl: akhee doorster

Did you visit this link provided by sister Gossamer Sky? http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html

It helps us to understand the hadith in it's proper context. :)

:w:
walaikum salam wa rahmat Allah

I was just taking a look at http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1104133
and
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1104160
and
http://www.islamicboard.com/manners-...ml#post1138174
to remind me of something (i.e flexible; non-rigid and yet within safe boundaries)
:w:
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Hugo
05-06-2009, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
hm.... (what does Quran say about that, something quite different! methinks!)
Tie up your camel; before putting your trust in Allah!

That is one of the best quotes I have seen for a long time. Its in a way like another one I saw sometime ago.

Better do a good deed near at home than go far away to burn incense. Amelia Earhart.

Incidentally, I have read both the articles referred to by Gossamer and will post a reply later but the first one is so weak its not worth the paper its written on as well as contradicting some famous scholars and the second paper. In the second references his favourite saying is '..it cannot be discussed here.." and his main argument about retaining apostasy as a crime is that others have done it in the past and the UDHR is a western invention.
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doorster
05-06-2009, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Tie up your camel; before putting your trust in Allah!

That is one of the best quotes I have seen for a long time. Its in a way like another one I saw sometime ago.

Better do a good deed near at home than go far away to burn incense. Amelia Earhart.

Incidentally, I have read both the articles referred to by Gossamer and will post a reply later but the first one is so weak its not worth the paper its written on as well as contradicting some famous scholars and the second paper. In the second references his favourite saying is '..it cannot be discussed here.." and his main argument about retaining apostasy as a crime is that others have done it in the past and the UDHR is a western invention.
Thank you! (I'm borrowing your quote) :)
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جوري
05-06-2009, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
Thank you! (I'm borrowing your quote) :)
arjo ann ta7thar min hazha as'shakhs akhi, al'mo'min faten! :smile:


:w:
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IHaveADream
05-08-2009, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Not at all, what I find objectionable however, is making a statement such as 'he makes many mistakes' with bravado and then list a link to do your work for you.. are you not able to articulate his errors for yourself so you delegate the job to another? The whole point of being so vanguard is exhibiting a free thought not simply parroting an opposing thought -- do you think you are capable of those?
I think you are exhibiting a bit of cognitive conservatism admixed with a temper tantrum. I am not big on psychology personally, but have you heard of projection? If you feel inferior, then it is something you need to resolve on your own private time. We are not here to handle you with kid gloves until such a time your thoughts, your temperament, and your writing acquire a more mature appeal..


all the best
Throughout my brief times on this forum, I am constantly dumbstruck by the irony in your posts. Keep up the good work there...
Reply

جوري
05-08-2009, 01:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IHaveADream
Throughout my brief times on this forum, I am constantly dumbstruck by the irony in your posts. Keep up the good work there...
Thanks, I intend to-- and it all means so much coming from you-- Thank God for your presence here!

all the best
Reply

Yanal
05-08-2009, 01:52 AM
:sl:

Sadiq Khan: 'Alarming'

Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.
The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.


Overall, the findings depict a Muslim community becoming more radical and feeling more alienated from mainstream society, even though 91 per cent still say they feel loyal to Britain.
The results of the poll, conducted for the Sunday Telegraph, came as thousands of Muslims staged a fresh protest in London yesterday against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed. In Libya, at least 10 people died in protests linked to the caricatures.
And in Pakistan, a cleric was reported to have put a $1 million (£575,000) bounty on the head of the Danish cartoonist who drew the original pictures.
Last night, Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP involved with the official task force set up after the July attacks, said the findings were "alarming". He added: "Vast numbers of Muslims feel disengaged and alienated from mainstream British society." Sir Iqbal Sacranie, the secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "This poll confirms the widespread opposition among British Muslims to the so-called war on terror."
The most startling finding is the high level of support for applying sharia law in "predominantly Muslim" areas of Britain.

Islamic law is used in large parts of the Middle East, including Iran and Saudi Arabia, and is enforced by religious police. Special courts can hand down harsh punishments which can include stoning and amputation.
Forty per cent of the British Muslims surveyed said they backed introducing sharia in parts of Britain, while 41 per cent opposed it. Twenty per cent felt sympathy with the July 7 bombers' motives, and 75 per cent did not. One per cent felt the attacks were "right".
Nearly two thirds thought the video images shown last week of British troops beating Iraqi youths were symptomatic of a wider problem in Iraq. Half did not think the soldiers would be "appropriately punished".
Half of the 500 people surveyed said relations between white Britons and Muslims were getting worse. Only just over half thought the conviction of the cleric Abu Hamza for incitement to murder and race hatred was fair.
Mr Khan, the MP for Tooting, said: "We must redouble our efforts to bring Muslims on board with the mainstream community. For all the efforts made since last July, things do not have appear to have got better."
He agreed with Sir Iqbal that the poll showed Muslims still had a "big gripe" about foreign policy, particularly over the war on terror and Iraq.
David Davis, the shadow home secretary, said: "It shows we have a long way to go to win the battle of ideas within some parts of the Muslim community and why it is absolutely vital that we reinforce the voice of moderate Islam wherever possible."
A spokesman for Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary, said: "It is critically important to ensure that Muslims, and all faiths, feel part of modern British society. Today's survey indicates we still have a long way to go… [but] we are committed to working with all faiths to ensure we achieve that end."
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doorster
05-09-2009, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
arjo ann ta7thar min hazha as'shakhs akhi, al'mo'min faten! :smile:


:w:
Count me in! Now, I am ready to join in the fray (of my own free choosing because of this post >> http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1139851)
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memories
05-09-2009, 04:35 PM
No, Only a tribunal that respects fundamental rights is a tribunal that is suitable for our 21 century, all the rest is innapropriate, here in Canade we have a wonderfull system. for some that think the death penalty I wou;d sugest reading ''Dernier jour d'un con****é'' from Victor Hugo, this book has toutche dme personnaly.:)
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Hugo
05-09-2009, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by memories
No, Only a tribunal that respects fundamental rights is a tribunal that is suitable for our 21 century, all the rest is innapropriate, here in Canade we have a wonderfull system. for some that think the death penalty I wou;d sugest reading ''Dernier jour d'un con****é'' from Victor Hugo, this book has toutche dme personnaly.:)
I think you may be referring to this which is used in his book Le Misérables

A scaffold, when it is erected and preparedly has Indeed a profoundly disturbing effect. We may remain more or less open-minded on the subject of the death penalty, indisposed to commit ourselves, so long as we have not seen a guillotine with our own eyes.
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memories
05-09-2009, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
I think you may be referring to this which is used in his book Le Misérables

A scaffold, when it is erected and preparedly has Indeed a profoundly disturbing effect. We may remain more or less open-minded on the subject of the death penalty, indisposed to commit ourselves, so long as we have not seen a guillotine with our own eyes.
Le Dernier Jour d’un con****é est un roman de Victor Hugo publié en 1829
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doorster
05-09-2009, 05:08 PM
.....
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doorster
05-09-2009, 05:10 PM
.....
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جوري
05-09-2009, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
Count me in! Now, I am ready to join in the fray (of my own free choosing because of this post >> http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1139851)
He is an under-educated gadfly, though it is a great waste of my time to go through something discussed and explained her ad-nauseam by Ansar. and not a few pages ago (commented on by Thinker as comprehensive), if this turd actually bothered read.

On the other thread when I have a bit more time, I'll go through each of the scribes who started recording the Quran to the time of the prophet, to the time of its amendment into copies to be disseminated to the new Muslim regions, to the laws passed that it must be recited in original tongue and not be lost to dialects.. insha'Allah.. it will be worth it to expose him, though I'd prefer they do it publicly so they don't invite him to Arabic countries to teach their youth deviant venom!

:w:
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doorster
05-09-2009, 05:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
He is an under-educated gadfly, though it is a great waste of my time to go through something discussed and explained her ad-nauseam by Ansar. and not a few pages ago (commented on by Thinker as comprehensive), if this turd actually bothered read.

On the other thread when I have a bit more time, I'll go through each of the scribes who started recording the Quran to the time of the prophet, to the time of its amendment into copies to be disseminated to the new Muslim regions, to the laws passed that it must be recited in original tongue and not be lost to dialects.. insha'Allah.. it will be worth it to expose him, though I'd prefer they do it publicly so they don't invite him to Arabic countries to teach their youth deviant venom!

:w:
I believe it now! I am sorry for not taking your word last time, it would have saved me a heap load of time and the ensuing headache. wa salam alaikum
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جوري
05-09-2009, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by doorster
I believe it now! I am sorry for not taking your word last time, it would have saved me a heap load of time and the ensuing headache. wa salam alaikum
:sl:
not a problem at all akhi, at least you come around from a post.. what aggrieves me is the condition of this ummah and its youth, who are ready to lap crap up and have no knowledge whatsoever of their history!

:w:
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AntiKarateKid
05-09-2009, 09:07 PM
Well I think the OP's question has been thoroughly answered.

Yes, we Muslims really want proper Sharia!
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Najm
05-09-2009, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Well I think the OP's question has been thoroughly answered.

Yes, we Muslims really want proper Sharia!

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

Takbeer!!!!!!!!!!!

FiAmaaniAllah
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Hugo
05-09-2009, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Well I think the OP's question has been thoroughly answered.

Yes, we Muslims really want proper Sharia!
Some questions

  1. Which Sharia as there are several schools, so what is 'proper Sharia'?
  2. May I ask do you want slavery as that is a very big part of Sharia?
  3. Do you want non-Muslims to always be inferior to Muslims because that is also part of Sharia?
  4. Do you agree with the death penalty for apostasy and would you be willing to 'pull the trigger'? (Always remembering the so called apostate might be your brother, father, mother, best friend, son etc.
  5. Do you consider the categories venzel, kirdar, musakat and mogharsa to be of ANY value in the modern world?


Please just answer yes or no so that we can all see what you think on at least these issues and you level of simple humanity.
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جوري
05-09-2009, 10:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo
Some questions

  1. Which Sharia as there are several schools, so what is 'proper Sharia'?
This question has been answered you, akin to, Democracy, do you want, democrats, republicans, conservatives, independents to be in office-- it depends on what the people want and vote for!

  1. May I ask do you want slavery as that is a very big part of Sharia?
Islam came to abolish slavery -in the matter of slavery, Islam gave a sound basis for the freeing of slaves through voluntary enfranchisement by charting a course to a permanent resolution of the complicated problem. It also presented strict conditions that made it extremely difficult for people to enslave others.
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE
contrast to modern day servants in the U.S and England!

Do you want non-Muslims to always be inferior to Muslims because that is also part of Sharia?
How are Muslims inferior?

  1. Do you agree with the death penalty for apostasy and would you be willing to 'pull the trigger'? (Always remembering the so called apostate might be your brother, father, mother, best friend, son etc.
if apostasy is for treason against the state then yes, no different than any other modern day world govt. and already demonstrated on this very thread.. do you enjoy redundancy?
Do you consider the categories venzel, kirdar, musakat and mogharsa to be of ANY value in the modern world?
??
Please just answer yes or no so that we can all see what you think on at least these issues and you level of simple humanity.
Yes or no answers benefit no one except first graders.. life is far too complicated...


tell me this man worshiper, how do you justify your faith and the doings of your churches?


WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
Ancient Pagans


  • As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
  • Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
  • Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
  • Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
  • Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
  • Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
    According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
  • In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
  • In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
  • The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
    [DO19-25]

Mission


  • Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
  • Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
  • Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
  • 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
  • 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
    Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)


  • First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
  • Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
  • 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
  • Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
  • after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
    Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
  • Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
  • Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
    (In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
  • The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
  • Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
  • Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
  • Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
  • Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224] Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics


  • Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
  • Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
  • Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
  • Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
  • subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
  • After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
  • Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
  • Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
  • Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
  • John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
  • University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
  • Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Witches


  • from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
  • in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
  • incomplete list of documented cases:
    The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars


  • 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
  • 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
  • 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
  • 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
  • 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
  • 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
  • 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Jews


  • Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
  • In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
  • 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
  • The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
  • First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
  • Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
  • Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
  • Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
  • 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
  • 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
  • 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
  • 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
  • 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
  • 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
  • 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
  • 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
  • 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.
Native Peoples


  • Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
  • Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
    While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
  • On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]
  • Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
  • In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
  • On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
  • The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
  • As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
  • The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
  • What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    "The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
  • The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
  • "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
  • Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
  • "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]

Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

  • Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
  • In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
    "Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
  • On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
  • When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
    Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
    The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
  • So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
  • Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
    "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
  • Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
  • Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
    In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
  • The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
  • Other tribes were to follow the same path.
  • Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
    "Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
  • Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
  • In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
  • In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
  • To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
  • All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
  • A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
  • In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

More Glorious events in US history


  • Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
  • Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
    From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
    More gory details.
  • By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

20th Century Church Atrocities


  • Catholic extermination camps
    Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

    In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
  • Catholic terror in Vietnam
    In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

    Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

    The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

    • "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....
  • Rwanda Massacres
    In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.

For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end....
References:

[DA] K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. [DO] K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987. [EC] P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985. [EJ] S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977. [LI] H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961. [MM] M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People. [MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992. [NC] J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992. [S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00. [SH] D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992. [SP] German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996. [TA] A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676. [TG] F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980. [WW] H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings). [WV] Estimates on the number of executed witches:

  • N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
  • R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
  • J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
  • H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56

all the best as always!
Reply

Woodrow
05-10-2009, 12:26 AM
It appears that the original post has been answered numerous times in this thread and we have reached the point where new posters are simply reading the original post and replying, without seeing they are only repeating what has been said.

Time to shut down the carousel:

:threadclo:
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