His death please God?

[Oleander]

Christians claim, God sent Jesus to die.

Well, If God did so, then He supposed to be please with his death, and the

ones who killed him, Did He?

[AntiKarateKid]

Christians claim, God sent Jesus to die.

Well, If God did so, then He supposed to be please with his death, and the

ones who killed him, Did He?

Makes it seem like God committed suicide... and suicide is a sin right?

[coddles76]

The whole dogma will never have any logic to it. Don't try to understand it, any logical thinking mind never will. Now the Believers of this concept will reply with comments that will try to substaniate it, but at the end it will still be illogical. Allah SWT explains these people in the Quran

There is the type of man whose speech about this world's life may dazzle thee, and he calls Allah to witness about what is in his heart; yet is he the most contentious of enemies.

They will Say, he died to save humanity, Free us of sin etc etc but in the end the logic is that no one knows who died or was sacrificed. Was it Jesus? Was it God? Oh hang on they are both the same. So it wasn't jesus but it was god. So God came down, killed himself to save us all from future sin. I still can't fathom how anybody can accept that. Oh well let's just wait for our fellow christians to comment and see how hard they try to substantiate it..........Who is gonna be first?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Oleander;

Christians claim, God sent Jesus to die.

It is not about the death of Jesus, unless you search for the meaning of his resurrection, you will miss everything.

In the spirit of praying for the forgiveness of sins.

Eric

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[coddles76]

Thanks Eric H for another interpretation of the sacrifice. We can now add to the definition that its not actually the death its the resurrection is where the meaning is held. I wonder why we can't get the same answer from each faithful christian, there always seems to be a different understanding. Maybe because there is no one way of interpreting the dogma.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you coddles76;

Thanks Eric H for another interpretation of the sacrifice. We can now add to the definition that its not actually the death its the resurrection is where the meaning is held.

Certainly the death of Jesus has meaning for me, but the greater meaning comes from the resurrection. First a person has to die before there can be a meaningful explanation of resurrection and life after death.

Today we celebrate the Last Supper, Jesus washed the feet of his disciple, and at our service tonight we wash the feet of each other, it is a profound and moving reminder that we should serve one another.

At the Last Supper Jesus gave us a new commandment..

Love one another as I have loved you, by this all men will know that you are my disciple.

Tomorrow we remember the death Jesus endured for us and the forgiveness of sins.

Sunday we celebrate the resurrection, and the hope of life after death. With Jesus the Son of God and God the Father.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God,

Eric

[THE END]

any doctrine that endorses the death of logic!! my soul refutes it.

[Oleander]

Greetings and peace be with you Oleander;

Quote:
Christians claim, God sent Jesus to die.

It is not about the death of Jesus, unless you search for the meaning of his resurrection, you will miss everything.

In the spirit of praying for the forgiveness of sins.

Eric


>>>Greeting Eric,

My question still stand: was the death of Jesus pleasing to God or not?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Oleander;

My question still stand: was the death of Jesus pleasing to God or not?

I am not sure I have heard That God was pleased about the death of Jesus, maybe Grace Seeker can comment. It has been called a Holy and Perfect Sacrifice, it was predestined. Jesus obeys God, but he does it by his choice, he was not forced to

John 10
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God

Eric

[Follower]

Why did a Muslims even start this thread?

According to your Quran GOD caused Jesus to die and was raised him up to himself. Why cause the one perfect sinless man on earth to die for no benefit?

Yes, GOD lovingly sacrificed His WORD incarnate for us.

Is GOD happy that He had to because of our sin- No.

[Joe98]

My question still stand: was the death of Jesus pleasing to God or not?

As I understand it, Muslims say everything is due to the will of Allah.

Is the death of any person pleasing to g_d?

-

[mkh4JC]

Makes it seem like God committed suicide... and suicide is a sin right?

Jesus is quoted in the New Testament as saying that 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends,' in St. John.

[جوري]

^^ interesting a great love for a man to lay his life for a friend but it doesn't answer really does the death of a God please God-- is God dying for his friends?
The more you quote your bible the more confounding and perplexing really.. how do you justify it to yourself?

Anyhow I think such a loving God who was willing to self-immolate for his pals shouldn't care really if some don't buy into all the nonsense as there is no greater love than what he has done, from suicide to abrogating his OT commandments through his nemesis saul!
all the best

[AntiKarateKid]

Jesus is quoted in the New Testament as saying that 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends,' in St. John.

I'm not sure how that addresses it.

God is Jesus

Jesus was a man

Jesus was killed.

God controls all things.

God killed himself.

God committed suicide.

[جوري]

Greetings and peace be with you Oleander;



I am not sure I have heard That God was pleased about the death of Jesus, maybe Grace Seeker can comment. It has been called a Holy and Perfect Sacrifice, it was predestined. Jesus obeys God, but he does it by his choice, he was not forced to

John 10
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

In the spirit of praying to a loving and forgiving God

Eric

Greetings Eric,

When you say 'Jesus obeys God', a command he received from the father it leads me to believe that they can't be one in the same.. how does that reconcile with monotheism, when God is allegedly one in the same with Jesus?
I know a belief is supposed to be amongst other things about your level of comfort as well all the pretty advertisement on TV of colorful eggs that amazingly coincide in all parts with sham en nseem and the persian narwuz pagan holidays and age old ceremonies that Jesus himself didn't partake in!

I like you the most out of the Christians here I believe you to be the most sincere, it really pains me to think, an otherwise intelligent wise man can let go of his reason to believe in mythology of the baffled men of old!

all the best

[mkh4JC]

I'm not sure how that addresses it.

God is Jesus

Jesus was a man

Jesus was killed.

God controls all things.

God killed himself.

God committed suicide.

^^ interesting a great love for a man to lay his life for a friend but it doesn't answer really does the death of a God please God-- is God dying for his friends?
The more you quote your bible the more confounding and perplexing really.. how do you justify it to yourself?

Anyhow I think such a loving God who was willing to self-immolate for his pals shouldn't care really if some don't buy into all the nonsense as there is no greater love than what he has done, from suicide to abrogating his OT commandments through his nemesis saul!
all the best

It's not suicide to lay down your life to save others. That's called sacrifice. Like, if I lay down my life to protect my wife whose being assaulted, and I show up just in time and whatnot. I die, but she escapes and lives on. Sacrifice is different from suicide. And to answer the question, yes it did please the Father. The Bible says that Christ's death was a sweet smelling savor to God the Father, and Isaiah 53 says that it pleased the Lord to bruise him.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The whole dogma will never have any logic to it. Don't try to understand it, any logical thinking mind never will. Now the Believers of this concept will reply with comments that will try to substaniate it, but at the end it will still be illogical.

Isn't that the same with any dogma?

"Just believe! And don't try to understand why!"

Peace

[burdenofbeing]

It surely is gibson
and islam is not bereft of dogmas either.

[YusufNoor]

It's not suicide to lay down your life to save others. That's called sacrifice. Like, if I lay down my life to protect my wife whose being assaulted, and I show up just in time and whatnot.

that's not what he's saying. would you kill yourself to save your wife?

I die, but she escapes and lives on. Sacrifice is different from suicide.

but we're talking about suicide! God should be the Supreme Being, thus only He would have the power to take his own life

And to answer the question, yes it did please the Father. The Bible says that Christ's death was a sweet smelling savor to God the Father, and Isaiah 53 says that it pleased the Lord to bruise him.

does it say in Isaiah 53 "it pleased the Lord to bruise himself?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

how could god the son killing himself please god the father? IF there are both the same, then god the father would have forsaken god the son because Christians claim that god the son said:

Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

and here again

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

so because god the son and god the father are the same, we could also translate that:

"Myself, Myself, why have i forsaken me?"

and out of all this, god [the son] losing faith in god [the father] is the apex of Christian beliefs????

god loses faith in himself as he commits suicide. well, that makes so much sense!

:w:

[Zafran]

Why did a Muslims even start this thread?

According to your Quran GOD caused Jesus to die and was raised him up to himself. Why cause the one perfect sinless man on earth to die for no benefit?

Yes, GOD lovingly sacrificed His WORD incarnate for us.

Is GOD happy that He had to because of our sin- No.

salaaam

1 - the person who started the thread has religion/way of life as "undisclosed" how do you know he/she a muslim?

2 - No idea where your getting the idea that "God caused Jesus pbuh to die" according to the quran - wheres your proof for that?

3 - Who said the Jesus pbuh was the ONLY perfect sinnless man and whats that go to do with the Quran???

peace

[mkh4JC]

that's not what he's saying. would you kill yourself to save your wife?

He didn't kill himself. He freely gave his life to save others from a life of sin. That's sacrifice not suicide. He had power to lay down his life, and power to take it up again.

does it say in Isaiah 53 "it pleased the Lord to bruise himself?

It says it pleased the Lord to bruise him.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

how could god the son killing himself please god the father?
IF there are both the same, then god the father would have forsaken god the son because Christians claim that god the son said:



Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

and here again

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Well, he didn't forsake him on the cross. To forsake him would mean that he broke fellowship with him, and Jesus said in St. John that the Father has not left him alone, and he still even on the cross asked the Father to 'forgive them because they know not what they do.' So they still had fellowship. Graceseeker mentioned once that Jesus was just fulfilling a Psalm of David, who wrote a good many of Messianic prophecies.

so because god the son and god the father are the same, we could also translate that

"Myself, Myself, why have i forsaken me?"

and out of all this, god [the son] losing faith in god [the father] is the apex of Christian beliefs????

god loses faith in himself as he commits suicide. well, that makes so much sense!

:w:

Well, the Christian understanding of God is that God exists as one God in three persons. You've heard different ways of explaining the Trinity, I'm sure. Mathematically I could say that the Trinity would equate to something like 1x1x1=1

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Well, he didn't forsake him on the cross. To forsake him would mean that he broke fellowship with him, and Jesus said in St. John that the Father has not left him alone, and he still even on the cross asked the Father to 'forgive them because they know not what they do.' So they still had fellowship.

I'm not sure how you square this with "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

Did Jesus make a mistake or something?

Peace

[mkh4JC]

Greetings,


I'm not sure how you square this with "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

Did Jesus make a mistake or something?

Peace

Well, Graceseeker can perhaps explain it better than I can, but he was the one who put this forth.

[aadil77]

Why did a Muslims even start this thread?

According to your Quran GOD caused Jesus to die and was raised him up to himself. Why cause the one perfect sinless man on earth to die for no benefit?

Yes, GOD lovingly sacrificed His WORD incarnate for us.

Is GOD happy that He had to because of our sin- No.

How do you know a 'muslims' started this thread?

This thread is in the 'comparative religion' section, so it doesn't matter who is starting the thread they can ask about other religions

According to OUR Quran where does it say God caused the Prophet Jesus to die? It clearly says the jews did not kill him and he was raised up, he will descend into this world later near the end of time, meaning he is not dead

So please don't talk about things with you don't know about with such certainty

if you have such beliefs about Jesus then why have your way of life as undisclosed, why not have it as christianity

[جوري]

It's not suicide to lay down your life to save others. That's called sacrifice. Like, if I lay down my life to protect my wife whose being assaulted, and I show up just in time and whatnot. I die, but she escapes and lives on. Sacrifice is different from suicide. And to answer the question, yes it did please the Father. The Bible says that Christ's death was a sweet smelling savor to God the Father, and Isaiah 53 says that it pleased the Lord to bruise him.

So what you are saying is that you are God too? you have just made an analogy between God and your person-- so God died so the people who 'sacrificed' him can live on?
Why would God love us, if he can't love himself long enough to uphold his own commandments, even if it is just for show to get us to play along?

all the best

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Why did a Muslims even start this thread?

According to your Quran GOD caused Jesus to die and was raised him up to himself. Why cause the one perfect sinless man on earth to die for no benefit?

Yes, GOD lovingly sacrificed His WORD incarnate for us.

Is GOD happy that He had to because of our sin- No.

A bit of a clarification. The Qur'an does not say Jesus(alaihis salaam) "died" and then was "raised" up. Allah says in the Qur'an that, thats what Christians say, but it never happened. Allah raised him up before it took place.

Allah(swt) mentions in Surah An - Nisa in the following verses:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. (157)

But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. (158)

[YusufNoor]

Well, Graceseeker can perhaps explain it better than I can, but he was the one who put this forth.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

actually, i also raise a question about the quote and i was directing it at you.

if you believe that the whole trinity is the same as 1x1x1=1, then they would all have to be the same one. keeping that in mind,

how do you square:

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

for in order for your equation to be consistent with your beliefs, Jesus IS in effect saying, " Myself, Myself, why have i forsaken me?"!

He had power to lay down his life, and power to take it up again.

IF he was in fact the only creator cherisher and sustainer of the entire world, then ONLY he would have the power to end his life. IF you can kill him, then he is DEFINITELY not God!

And to answer the question, yes it did please the Father. The Bible says that Christ's death was a sweet smelling savor to God the Father, and Isaiah 53 says that it pleased the Lord to bruise him.

again, for your 1x1x1=1 equation [or misdirection] to be true, then we can reinterpret Isaiah 53, "it pleased the Lord to bruise [the Lord]" this implies a god who enjoys feeling pain, especially self inflicted pain. does that make sense to you?

Jesus is quoted in the New Testament as saying that 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends,' in St. John.

this is strange, should the quote read: "that a god lay down his life for his friends?" OR is Jesus denying that he is a part of a trinity here?

:w:

[جوري]

Greetings,


Isn't that the same with any dogma?

"Just believe! And don't try to understand why!"

Peace

Indeed.. however some beliefs are more illogical than others.
I can believe for instance, Dr. Sampson's theories on retrograde menses causing endometriosisas as very plausible even though they don't explain endometrioma present in the nose or lungs tissues, over say, Dr. John Martin theories on stealth viruses.. as there is usually a painstaking process and criteria that makes unknowable things more approachable by tightening the confidence interval so if there is doubt it can be dispelled, and that is what any belief should do for you, so one doesn't find him/herself in heaping gaps that can't be mended as is the case with Christianity!

all the best

[AntiKarateKid]

It's not suicide to lay down your life to save others. That's called sacrifice. Like, if I lay down my life to protect my wife whose being assaulted, and I show up just in time and whatnot. I die, but she escapes and lives on. Sacrifice is different from suicide. And to answer the question, yes it did please the Father. The Bible says that Christ's death was a sweet smelling savor to God the Father, and Isaiah 53 says that it pleased the Lord to bruise him.

What?? Jesus is the savior of humanity right? Savior from what? The punishment of God.

Why does God have to kill himself to save humanity from his own wrath?? :enough!:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

My brain starts going mumbo jumbo when I hear this stuff, which is way too confusing. I confuse myself more as I write it myself or say it! :/

[mkh4JC]

So what you are saying is that you are God too? you have just made an analogy between God and your person-- so God died so the people who 'sacrificed' him can live on?
Why would God love us, if he can't love himself long enough to uphold his own commandments, even if it is just for show to get us to play along?

What commandments would these be? Are you talking about Jesus upholding the Old Testament? If so, Jesus lived perfectly under the Old Testament, the only one who ever did so. In fact the only thing the Pharisees and religious leaders of the day could level his way was that he was healing on the sabbath days.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

actually, i also raise a question about the quote and i was directing it at you.

if you believe that the whole trinity is the same as 1x1x1=1, then they would all have to be the same one. keeping that in mind,

how do you square:



for in order for your equation to be consistent with your beliefs, Jesus IS in effect saying, " Myself, Myself, why have i forsaken me?"!

That was just an expression of Jesus' humanity. On the cross he took on the entirety of humanity's sin, past, present, and future. So he was feeling the wrath of almighty God while he was on the cross, or the anger of God.

IF he was in fact the only creator cherisher and sustainer of the entire world, then ONLY he would have the power to end his life. IF you can kill him, then he is DEFINITELY not God!

Well, there is a passage in St. John where the Roman soldiers try to apprehend Jesus and they all fall backward. Here:

'Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

As soon then as the had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way.' St. John 18:

The reason being is because they couldn't forcefully take his life, he had to give it of his own self. There's also a section somewhere in the Gospel's where they try to throw him off a cliff and he just walks past them before they do so. Here:

'And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him headlong.

But he passing through the midst of them went his way...' Luke 4; 28-30.

We all die because we have sinned and we continue to sin. Death had no authority over Jesus because he didn't sin. Which is also why he rose from the dead, because death could not hold him.

again, for your 1x1x1=1 equation [or misdirection] to be true, then we can reinterpret Isaiah 53, "it pleased the Lord to bruise [the Lord]" this implies a god who enjoys feeling pain, especially self inflicted pain. does that make sense to you?

No, that's not what it implies. The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus is just the fulfillment of the Old Testament. The Old Testament was an imperfect covenant, one in which its adherents (the Jewish people) could not realistically live. If everyone could live perfectly under the old covenant, there would have been no need to send Jesus into the world to redeem us.

And yes, it did please the Lord (God the Father) to bruise the Lord (God the Son). It doesn't mean that he enjoys self inflicted pain, it just means that he is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy.

this is strange, should the quote read: "that a god lay down his life for his friends?" OR is Jesus denying that he is a part of a trinity here?

No, it doesn't mean that. Jesus was just expressing his humanity, he was relating to them on their level.

What?? Jesus is the savior of humanity right? Savior from what? The punishment of God.

Why does God have to kill himself to save humanity from his own wrath?? :enough!:

As I said, it has to do with God being a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Sin carries with it a price, and it has to be paid. God has provided payment through the atoning work of his Son Jesus Christ. Why? So that all men might honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.

[جوري]

What commandments would these be? Are you talking about Jesus upholding the Old Testament? If so, Jesus lived perfectly under the Old Testament, the only one who ever did so. In fact the only thing the Pharisees and religious leaders of the day could level his way was that he was healing on the sabbath days.
.

I am talking about thou shalt not kill amongst many others.
I am talking about committing suicide for no good reason.
I am talking about the absurdity and absolute logical contradiction for a man to pray to himself the night before forsaking himself -- I am talking about a man who is pleased to see himself bruised for infantile reasons. And the impossibility of selling the rest of the world that each entity had a separate will and are yet one in the same!

There is really nothing Grace Seeker can do for you, when at the very fulcrum of your tenets is something so severely flawed you couldn't possibly drown it with all the florid language in the universe!

all the best

[coddles76]

Greetings,


Isn't that the same with any dogma?

"Just believe! And don't try to understand why!"

Peace

lol Incorrect.
I Believe and I UNDERSTAND WHY I believe!

[burdenofbeing]

my position is the saddest one, I understand but my belief is troubled.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you burdenofbeing;

I understand but my belief is troubled

You are in my prayers, life is a journey always one day at a time, knowing that our God holds us in the palm of his hand.

In the spirit of praying for an inner peace that surpasses all understanding.

Eric

[Hafswa]

lol Incorrect.
I Believe and I UNDERSTAND WHY I believe!

That's a great position to be in ay....may be you can help burdenofbeing understand why he believes.....

[Hafswa]

I am talking about thou shalt not kill amongst many others.
I am talking about committing suicide for no good reason.
I am talking about the absurdity and absolute logical contradiction for a man to pray to himself the night before forsaking himself -- I am talking about a man who is pleased to see himself bruised for infantile reasons. And the impossibility of selling the rest of the world that each entity had a separate will and are yet one in the same!

There is really nothing Grace Seeker can do for you, when at the very fulcrum of your tenets is something so severely flawed you couldn't possibly drown it with all the florid language in the universe!

all the best

Question dear, if ALL things in life have to be logical, when do you leave room for God to be God and to come through? Where does faith and hope come into play.

[جوري]

Question dear, if ALL things in life have to be logical, when do you leave room for God to be God and to come through? Where does faith and hope come into play.

Where in ANY of my posts 'dear' have I used the term 'ALL'? -- other than that I recommend you work on formulating a better question, it is faulty on many levels!

all the best

[YusufNoor]

Question dear, if ALL things in life have to be logical, when do you leave room for God to be God and to come through? Where does faith and hope come into play.

:sl:

why would ANYTHING to do with God be illogical? does that mean that Xianity is the most illogical religion you could find?

faith comes in because we can't see Allah, hope comes in because no matter how hard we try, we fall short. we cannot number the blessings that Allah has poured out on us, so we could never really "pay for them." thus we rely on Allah's Mercy. plus we "tie our camel."

:w:

[Hafswa]

Where in ANY of my posts 'dear' have I used the term 'ALL'? -- other than that I recommend you work on formulating a better question, it is faulty on many levels!

all the best

My use of ALL was not to literally said that you spelt it out A-L-L in any of your posts.Its metaphoric! To formulate a better question to you 'dear', haven't you even gone through an experience in life that was beyond your understanding or raised so many questions that you wondered where God was when all that was happening? Sounds like you've had a smooth one.

[Hafswa]

:sl:

why would ANYTHING to do with God be illogical? does that mean that Xianity is the most illogical religion you could find?

faith comes in because we can't see Allah, hope comes in because no matter how hard we try, we fall short. we cannot number the blessings that Allah has poured out on us, so we could never really "pay for them." thus we rely on Allah's Mercy. plus we "tie our camel."

:w:

Thanks for the response. You misunderstood my post to state that religion-any- is illogical. To clarify, no one would believe in anything if it did not make sense(logic) to them or did not stir up a conviction in them.
You answered my question when you defined faith and hope. To add on to this, hope is also the assurance that no matter how bad things get, like you said, His mercies will always come through.

[coddles76]

That's a great position to be in ay....may be you can help burdenofbeing understand why he believes.....

I would love to help with advice, The tools of understanding are out there which have helped me understand what I believe in. These tools are the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH). These tools are always there for me to help in any trouble that passes my way. Now we all have that duty to gain knowledge and then understand why we seek that knowledge, then gain the wisdom of that knowledge. This is what I can advise not only burdenofbeing but others aswell. Whether he will accept that advice or not or whether his troubles will simple dissappear is another matter. I can simply speak for myself and say that I BELIEVE AND TOTALLY UNDERSTAND WHY I BELIEVE. If I could get everyone to think like I do then this place on earth would be such a beautiful place, but unfortunetly I can't.

[Hafswa]

I would love to help with advice, The tools of understanding are out there which have helped me understand what I believe in. These tools are the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH). These tools are always there for me to help in any trouble that passes my way. Now we all have that duty to gain knowledge and then understand why we seek that knowledge, then gain the wisdom of that knowledge. This is what I can advise not only burdenofbeing but others aswell. Whether he will accept that advice or not or whether his troubles will simple dissappear is another matter. I can simply speak for myself and say that I BELIEVE AND TOTALLY UNDERSTAND WHY I BELIEVE. If I could get everyone to think like I do then this place on earth would be such a beautiful place, but unfortunetly I can't.

Thanks for pointing out the direction anyone with doubt should take.

[جوري]

My use of ALL was not to literally said that you spelt it out A-L-L in any of your posts.Its metaphoric!

Really? why use a decisive term only to recant it when at a loss for supporting posts?...

To formulate a better question to you 'dear', haven't you even gone through an experience in life that was beyond your understanding or raised so many questions that you wondered where God was when all that was happening? Sounds like you've had a smooth one.

You are not interested in a debate, proper analysis or even a different point of view given that you have already posed and answered the question for yourself, You are however interested in asserting your opinion-- I frankly don't enjoy engaging puerile posts. Until such a time you have something of substance to impart on the matter, I suggest you simply skip over my posts or not quote me all together-- least of which whilst exploiting terms of endearment-- extraneous extras add nothing to a post and neither does deranging a topic with nonsense and non-questions so as to campaign better for your faith, if the concept of trinity is hard for most to swallow, then your descent into word play is even less amusing!


all the best!

[Danah]

Mathematically I could say that the Trinity would equate to something like 1x1x1=1

ahh, I wish I can understand all this Trinity one day, I really wish to

:ooh: can we really take this square so easily? if so, then they are all equal! which cant be logical at all
because God created Jesus and the Spirit, and there is no way that the creator have the same power as the created


never mind, I don't wanna be off topic

[mkh4JC]

ahh, I wish I can understand all this Trinity one day, I really wish to

:ooh: can we really take this square so easily? if so, then they are all equal! which cant be logical at all
because God created Jesus and the Spirit, and there is no way that the creator have the same power as the created


never mind, I don't wanna be off topic

God didn't create Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have existed and will continue to from eternity to eternity. In Genesis, for instance, we read that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters during creation.

In Pslams 110:1 we find this verse: The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son) sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Isaiah 53 fully explains what the Messiah (that is Jesus Christ) would ultimately have to do.

And St. John explains to us that 'In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.'

[coddles76]

God didn't create Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have existed and will continue to from eternity to eternity. In Genesis, for instance, we read that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters during creation.

In Pslams 110:1 we find this verse: The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son) sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Isaiah 53 fully explains what the Messiah (that is Jesus Christ) would ultimately have to do.

And St. John explains to us that 'In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.'

I think that should totally help Saya with her understanding of the Trinity. SAYA has that helped at all?
What I understood from your explanation is that from the beginning of time we have had 3 Gods which created creation and there are instances were one of the Gods is telling the other god what to do. One God said to the other God, sit here next to me on my right hand side and I'll show you how things are done.

[mkh4JC]

It would be better phrased to say, one God in three persons.

[burdenofbeing]

at any rate, if they believe there is one god, why don't the christians do away with the whole trinity thing, and say there is one god?

[coddles76]

It would be better phrased to say, one God in three persons.

"In Pslams 110:1 we find this verse: The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son) sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool"

Hang on that certainly sounds to me like 2 seperate Gods, Not 2 seperate persons in one god. I appreciate your attempt at trying to make the point clearer.

[coddles76]

at any rate, if they believe there is one god, why don't the christians do away with the whole trinity thing, and say there is one god?

Well thats what us Muslims are trying to promote from day one to our fellow christians and are always in hope that they will understand. Get rid of the trinity theory and Adjust your belief slightly to accept that there is ONE God, not 3 in 1 or 1 in 3. Its very simple, I don't know how easier it could get. ONE CREATOR that created all that is between the heavens and the earth. Isn't it much easier to explain this theory than to try to explain 3 person in one is GOD, GOD the Father spoke to GOD the son and the GOD the spirit moved upon the surface of water but there not 3 entities they are 3 persons in ONE GOD. There are 3 which are Co Equal and Co Exsist.
I personally like the islamic Definition of the creator Allah SWT, it is more befitting of his greatness.There is no other GOD but Allah SWT who is the creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in between. He begets NOT nor is HE begotten and there is none more greater than him ALONE. How Beautiful is that!

[YusufNoor]

at any rate, if they believe there is one god, why don't the christians do away with the whole trinity thing, and say there is one god?

:sl:

because they say there are three. in Math. Ch 3:16-17

17 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

see, one is a father, one is a son, and the other is a bird?

but they are supposed to be the same or equal, yet one is ALWAYS the son, and one is ALWAYS the father and the other seems to do alot of hovering.

and on the equality thing, in John 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

this sort of implies that it was Jesus and NOT god who created the heavens and the earth, yet in Matt 24:

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

seems to indicate that the father and son are not quite equal, while in Mark 14:

36"Abba,[ Father]," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will

he clearly relegates authority to Abba [the father]!

i'm sure this will help SAYA!!

:w:

[mkh4JC]

"In Pslams 110:1 we find this verse: The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son) sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool"

Hang on that certainly sounds to me like 2 seperate Gods, Not 2 seperate persons in one god. I appreciate your attempt at trying to make the point clearer.

No, it is the Father and the Son, ie the first two persons of the Godhead.

[wth1257]

God didn't create Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have existed and will continue to from eternity to eternity. In Genesis, for instance, we read that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters during creation.

In Pslams 110:1 we find this verse: The Lord (God the Father) said unto my Lord (God the Son) sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Isaiah 53 fully explains what the Messiah (that is Jesus Christ) would ultimately have to do.

And St. John explains to us that 'In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.'

None of those verses were so interpreted until Christians went back into the Jewish Bible to try to find foreshadowings of Christ.

[Hafswa]

ahh, I wish I can understand all this Trinity one day, I really wish to

:ooh: can we really take this square so easily? if so, then they are all equal! which cant be logical at all
because God created Jesus and the Spirit, and there is no way that the creator have the same power as the created


never mind, I don't wanna be off topic

Saya, may be this can help:

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Trinity/default.htm

http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/trinity.htm

[Danah]

God didn't create Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have existed and will continue to from eternity to eternity. In Genesis, for instance, we read that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters during creation.

Do you mean that he was existed before even Adam was there? and before they "Adam and his wife" "sinned"?

I think that should totally help Saya with her understanding of the Trinity. SAYA has that helped at all?
What I understood from your explanation is that from the beginning of time we have had 3 Gods which created creation and there are instances were one of the Gods is telling the other god what to do. One God said to the other God, sit here next to me on my right hand side and I'll show you how things are done.

That increased my confusion now, thank you <_<


Currently, I am reading the Bible, When I came to those vreses.....
Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God
[John 8:54]

are they equal?
if one is giving the honor to someone else, then it means that the second did not have it from the beginning thats why he was "given" that "honor"

and..................

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
[James 1:13]
one can be tempted while the others cant, so are they equal??

and.....................

You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
[John 14:28]
one is greater than the other!

and......................

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
[1 Corinthians 11:3]
one is the head of the other

so, are they still equal?? I will appreciate any explanation for those verses

and they are still many that I quite busy to look for them...

.................................................. .................................................. .........

:sl:
17 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

and who did baptize him? Is'nt he supposed to be perfect "like a god" and be already baptized from the beginning? or may be I missed something here? explain plz

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

so one do know, while the other do NOT!......add this fedos to my comments

i'm sure this will help SAYA!!

kind of!

[Danah]

Saya, may be this can help:

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Trinity/default.htm

http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/trinity.htm

thanks
will look at them

[mkh4JC]

Do you mean that he was existed before even Adam was there? and before they "Adam and his wife" "sinned"?

Yes, that's what I meant.

Currently, I am reading the Bible, When I came to those vreses.....
Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God
[John 8:54]

are they equal?
if one is giving the honor to someone else, then it means that the second did not have it from the beginning thats why he was "given" that "honor"

Well, perhaps I can approach this inquiry by saying that the knowledge that God has a Son is what is called in the New Testament a hidden truth. Meaning, if God didn't send his Son into the world to redeem us the nature of God would have remained a mystery. And perhaps I can also quote Jesus here in St. John further elaborating on this:

'For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son:

That all men should honor the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.' St. John 5:22-23.

and..................

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
[James 1:13]
one can be tempted while the others cant, so are they equal??

Well, I'm only a baby in Christ myself, and not well developed, for varying reasons. But perhaps this is a good passage of scripture that relates to your inquiry.

'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.' Phillipians 2: 5-8.

Christ was tempted at all points as we are in his human nature but he also had a divine nature. The Bible also says that henceforth we know Jesus not after the flesh, or his human nature.

and.....................

You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
[John 14:28]
one is greater than the other!

Well, this is what I found:

Perhaps more than any other, this verse has been quoted by non-Trinitarians as proof that Jesus could not be true God. In the view of those denying the Trinity, if the Father is "greater" than Jesus, Jesus must be teaching that He is ontologically inferior to the Father. A careful consideration of this verse in context, however, reveals that such a view in untenable.
As Jesus approaches the Cross, He begins to speak more plainly about leaving His disciples and returning to His Father. When the disciples display a self-centered - though natural - response, Jesus reproves them: "If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father." But why should they rejoice when Jesus goes to His Father? Is it because Jesus will be happier there? Or because He will be past His suffering on the Cross? These would be answers we might give a loved one who, upon hearing that we had a terminal illness, cried out, "But what will I do without you?" What we would certainly not say in such a circumstance is: "Rejoice for me that I'm going to God, because God is a superior being than I am." Such a remark would provide little comfort (since obviously God is superior to any created being) and instead would bespeak an intolerable hubris - as though we were so wonderful that our loved ones would actually confuse us for God Himself!. If Jesus' disciples understood Him to be a mere man, or a lesser divinity of some sort, as non-Trinitarians tell us, reprimanding them in this way would would seem almost a non-sequitor. "We know God is a greater being than you are, Master," the disciples could reasonably respond, "but why should we rejoice in such an obvious truth?"

The word translated "greater" (meizon) does not mean greater in the sense of a higher type of being, but rather greater in the sense of position or authority. This is the meaning cited by modern Greek lexicons, and is exampled by dozens of Biblical and extra-Biblical sources (see Grammatical Analysis, below). Jesus repeats the phrase, "A servant is not greater than his Master," twice in this same discourse (John 13:16; 15:20). The same Greek word (meizon) occurs in each of these verses. No one would suggest that a servant is a lesser being than his Master. A Master is "greater" than a servant because he occupies a position of greater status, dignity, and authority. If we let these other examples guide us, Jesus is saying that the Father is "greater" because the Father's position in Heaven is one of greater dignity and authority than the Son occupies on earth. This meaning, then, makes clear why the disciples should rejoice. The Son is returning to the right hand of the Father, to the glory He had with the Father before His existence on earth (John 17:5). He had voluntarily humbled Himself in coming to earth (Philippians 2:6), taking the form of a servant (doulos, the same word Jesus uses in John 13:16 and 15:20). Now Jesus was returning to the Father to regain His former glory, where He could accomplish all the wonderful things promised to the disciples in His final discourse. If the disciples had considered the import of Jesus' words, they would have realized the exaltation that awaited the Son, and would have rejoiced.

Thus, there is little contextual or lexical support for the idea that Jesus is teaching His ontological inferiority to the Father in this verse. He is speaking in the highest terms of the positional greatness of the Father - a position to which Jesus is soon to return, there to be an even greater blessing to the disciples and an assurance of their own paths to Heaven.

and......................

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
[1 Corinthians 11:3]
one is the head of the other

so, are they still equal?? I will appreciate any explanation for those verses

I think my quoted passage answers this question as well. I guess I could just say from my own understanding that God is a God of order.

1125737and who did baptize him[/B]? Is'nt he supposed to be perfect "like a god" and be already baptized from the beginning? or may be I missed something here? explain plz

John the Baptist baptized Jesus. At first he didn't want to do it, feeling that he was unworthy (and he was) but Jesus told him to suffer it to be so now, for it becometh them to fulfill all righteousness.

Ok, I hope I answered your questions good enough.