what you do in your personal life is no concern of mine.. but what you advise or advocate so publicly with definitiveness and authority without firm knowledge is another.
I'd also like to remind you just in case you were not familiar with projection that it was you who'd left a negative in my CP don't come in the same breath to speak of haste and judgment...
I didn't leave negative on your CP except that you closed that thread against any further posting (maybe someone else closed it but the outcome was the same) AND you have turned off your private messaging system. I know that I have no ... what do they call it here.. "Rep power" to leave anything negative but it was the only way to, yes poke at you, the only way to reach you since you apparently are all closed up in communications!
My belief in what I write extends from that of whom I learned from and the fact that was echoed across the board. So excuse me if YES I will be very protective that a minority contemprory misguided translation gets presented as the global consensus, when any Arab secondary school student of religion would be surprised at the notion of "have intercourse" when the very incident of the verse is well known, the interpretation has been spoken clearly by the prophet and the Sahaba, in addition to the illogical conclusion as to have intercourse, when the step right before it is "deny them intercourse"!
If I can find an opinion to negate yours on Islamonline, or even mere superficial personal survey of the prophet Mohammed (p) life and interactions (and I do) then frankly, I don't see how I can put any weightiness to what you write as I am yet to see your qualifications when it comes to Islamic scholarship!
I wasn't trying to get you to accept my opinion or adopt it, and I don't need to show all my qualifications in order to have anyone accept my quotations. I simply bring verifiable information that ANYONE can go online and double check, and that is the opinion of the FATHERS of jurisprudence and the established scholars from old until today's academics. Academics today have differences, and just like I mentioned elsewhere, it is the consensus and majority ruling that keeps things in check from both gun-totting takfir everyone backyard lunatics and modernization liberals who wish to change things to be more fashionable in Western-style concepts. I am in the middle and I am proud to be where the vast majority of scholars are.
If you wish to present an opinion, then present it all that you wish. When someone asks though about "does Islam say this and that" then the response needs to be with solid narration of the original hadiths that produce those rulings and more importantly has the PRIMARY REFERENCES and SECONDARY ANALYSIS that support those opinions. The Sunnah that was collected and processed across tens of thousands of scholars back when seeking enlightened knowledge in Islam was a most prestigeous practice and produced the shining examples and stars of the four Imams of the four Math-habs and Ibn Taymeyya and Sayyed Sabeq and etc.. Some new age professor or European school of theology scholar came up with a new idea or ijtihad? Good for him or her, but until it becomes consensus across the academic world and gets the books to be rewritten then it stays as the minority view that may be mentioned for the sake of hearing all sides.
And if you want to check the consensus, pick up the phone and check the Azhar school you said your uncles graduated from and tell them Daraba means have intercourse and see their reaction, or ask them if apostacy has no Hadd ruling and that there is freedom of religion in leaving Islam. Anybody you reach that tells you yes, let me know his name, the Dean will review whether they need to repeat their secondary school education or not! As a matter of fact, if you wish to contact my mother be my guest, unlike me she's an established scholar who gets invited all over Egypt to teach and educate and still lives back there full time, why don't you email her to see if any of Al-Azhar or Omar Abd El-Kafi group or Mustafa Mahmoud Mosque circles would agree with those concepts.
Consensus is the key, that is the definition of majority. Islamonline has those who argue against apostacy laws (saw two postings or articles about them) but has 12 approving and confirming the validity right there on the website. You can at the very least recognize the factual statements that I am writing: that those are indeed are the opinions of the four Imams of jurisprudence as written in their books and the opinions of great scholars like Ibn Taymeyya and whomever else I quoted. Forget what I am saying regarding the consensus of modern scholars, just check what the math-habs dictate, before launching new rulings as "Islamic rulings" and it goes against all of their teachings, not to mention the original traditions and scripture.
they are not however shared by the majority and I'd actually go the mile to say that Br. Ansar al'Adl (as per above topic and in concert with the thread) is probably the best of us in education when it comes to Islamic Jurisprudence and the science of hadith
Islam is learned from primary and secondary references and multitude of established scholars. For the latter I depend on my professors at the university. I educate myself ABOUT tertiary modern analysis, but they mostly expand on something already established, or they make an error if they want to go against the establishment. When I say majority, I refer to established opinions in the mothers of books, as in how many of the four imams agree on something, how many of the closest Sahaba were of that opinion, and how many of my professors or teachers are of that opinion. I don't take a census on every matter, but when apostacy was discussed not a single colleague or teacher ever suggested it doesn't stand anymore. And the consensus is as I described earlier, that the four Imams agree on apostacy hodoud along with all Sahaba applying them and more modern sheikhs confirming them. I never thought in my life I would be like this because I am aquarius and since I was young I was so violently against the status quo and always looking for ways to shake the establishment. However I guess Islam changes everything in a person. :) I'ld love to learn from anyone, and I will be happy to read more of what's written, but I know enough to recognize the difference and mostly, if it tries to suggest that 14 centuries of scholars and the sahaba got it wrong, forgive me but it already means that the opinion is headed south and my read becomes purely entertainment. I would also be inclined to make new posts if it wasn't already made in those threads drawing attention to the origin of Islamic rulings and what the opinions are.
I would venture to recommend you use the search feature to familiarize with the topics here at length before rehashing the same all again.
I am sure there are other learned individuals all over and maybe know more than me, and would be happy to read across and learn if something is new. If somebody asks something specific, why can't he be answered specifically though? There's no rehashing, there's expansion and possibly, correction. And I am sure there will be a time when I am corrected. Otherwise we might as well close the questions concept completely and tell people to just search on Google!
(there is more to the practice than you stating it is a consensus amongst sunni scholars) can't really butter anyone's bread with your assurances! and if you can then my God? what are you doing on a forum? you should use that expertise in the appropriate chanels
A simple check of the books would suffice to say what the opinion of the grand scholars are. Verify if you like. Like I said I don't publish personal opinions because those of the grand scholars old and new were comprehensive enough anyway, so it's much better for me to simply quote them, and only fill in small blanks here and there. That is the method of Arab sheikhs and scholars anyway:
1- To state the original text as per Quran and Sunnah and Hadith
2- To present the interpretation as per the consensus of the primary sources like Sahihein and Tafsir Ibn Katheer and such when needed, mentioning a difference if there is one between them.
3- To present the consensus ruling and opinion amongst the secondary sources, like the four Imams, Ibn Taymeyya, Sayed Sabek etc. if there is one. If there isn't a consensus, they mention that it is still a matter of difference. This is where a scholar can apply ijtihad and that's when an analysis is made and some scholars differ with one another and it can be presented as such.
Apostacy hadd and the interpretation of "wadrebohanna" were NOT under any difference. Therefore the opinion is more than sufficiently presented as such. Nobody is censoring that no one else can say otherwise, but to do so then proof and supporting evidence that makes sense needs to be presented, and more importantly that new opinion will stand as the minority, it cannot be used to debunk completely a consensus that was established by the scholars on a forum without it being widely agreed upon in academic circles first and having them adopted as adjustment. Something that DID happen in very few cases (VERY few cases, and the proof and evidence was provided from newly authenticated hadith). Why am I here on the forum? Because it is fun! :) And yes I do spend some time speaking to small groups in small masjeds about basic matters because I am waiting for my masters degree.
Al'mo'emin faten above all, and wise, every situation is tailored differently, it isn't a one size fits all.
Absolutely agree, but the two areas that we had differences upon were areas of pure Islamic constants of consensus. The four Imams not only differed amongst them, but also changed things based on circumstances and countries. Shafei made adjustments when he went to Egypt for example because necessities on the ground required it. Constants though were always constants, and neither I nor you can decide to change them here on the forum.
1- belittling or and I quote call other Muslims 'misguided and principally wrong', as I indeed remind you the thread you negatively repped me on was written by Br. Yusuf Estes and not my person I beg to see your qualifications first before we venture into his (amongst others)?! especially when equally valid, sound, with proof either from the Quran or sunna.
I apologize for the rep, I thought this was the only way to reach you. And my earlier post here as you can see was an explanation and response to your negative rep that you gave me in return, which called my posting an emotional opinion when it is nothing more than quotations and direct research from the mother of books, and reflects what the four Imams have agreed upon and was continually reflected by the grand scholars who came afterwards. You also said I was making takfir on people, which I highly resent because I am the exact opposite. Apostacy law being applicable as per the agreement of all Sahaba and imams does not mean that I am the one who is saying anyone is a kafir. Anyway, that said, I repeat my apology for a wrong way of contact. The opinion you published on the other hand was misguided, and your reaction to redicule the prophet's hadith of miswak and then close the thread was very offensive. You need to recognize that.
As for brother Yusuf Estes that you mentioned, I swear I mean no disrespect to him by what I am about to say, but unless he has a fifth math-hab and is recognized as a new Imam who abolishes the other four math-habs, I do not see how his qualifications can have anything to do with his opinion being against the consensus of the four schools of jurisprudence: Maliki, Hanbali, Haneefi, and Shafeii, as well as the Sahaba's practices.
leaving negatives for others and then crying wolf about it in an entirely unrelated thread-straying off topic simply to appease oneself over not having the last word-baiting someone who has no interest in addressing you in this topic by discussing an issue completely unrelated to this thread
I already apologized for the rep, and yes you're right i wouldn't contact you again. But if you publish something unauthentic or confusing to readers I will do everything required to make sure that proper Islamic rulings are published as well so as not to misguide the readers. If that still pisses you off, then I am not apologetic and you can do as you like.