clarification of apostasy

[salamfromrom]

Salam


I have read all ther opinions about apostasy and I do agree that if someone has researched and come to the conclusion of la Illaha Illa Allah, and later he denies and converts to another religion he should be killed. I am aware that this is the position of the madhabs and it seems reasonable. I mean if a sane adult embraces Islam knowing full well what the punishment for apostasy is and that There is only One God and Muhammad(pbuh) is his messenger, it would be stupid to disbelieve in it.

However I would like to ask about something which I do not understand. It is my understanding that the majority share the following view:

Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi declares:

Whatever objections the critics pose regarding the punishment of the apostate, they make them bearing in mind only a single "religion" (madhhab). In contrast, when we present our arguments to demonstrate the validity of this punishment, we have in view no mere "religion" but a state which is constructed on a religion (din) and the authority of its principles rather than on the authority of a family, clan or people.

And since it is a state, Maududi declares it "has the right to protect its own existence by declaring those acts wrong which undermine its order", and proceeds to equate apostasy to treason. He then discusses the difference between a kafir, a dhimmi, and the appropriateness of death for them if they apostatize after conversion, and for those born of Muslim parents he states:

In any case the heart of the matter is that children born of Muslim lineage will be considered Muslims and according to Islamic law the door of apostasy will never be opened to them. If anyone of them renounces Islam, he will be as deserving of execution as the person who has renounced kufr to become a Muslim and again has chosen the way of kufr. All the jurists of Islam agree with this decision. On this topic absolutely no difference exists among the experts of shari'ah.

Maududi considers the threat of execution as not forcing someone to stay within the fold of Islam, but as a way of keeping those who are not truly committed out of the community of Islam. Maududi rejects the third criticism because unlike other religions which are free to exchange believers, Islam is "on whose ideas and actions society and state are constructed" cannot allow "to keep open its door that would spell its own ruin, the scattering of its own structure's parts, the stripping away of the bonds of its own existence", and he compares this to the treason penalty on the books of the U.S. and Britain. Maududi also rejects the charge of contradiction. In his words:

"There is no compulsion in religion" (la ikraha fi'd din: Qur'an [Qur'an 2:256]) means that we do not compel anyone to come into our religion. And this is truly our practice. But we initially warn whoever would come and go back that this door is not open to come and go. Therefore anyone who comes should decide before coming that there is no going back.

(source: Wikipedia, Apostasy in Islam)

So this is the only thing which I find that goes against any logic or reasoning..

How can a child be killed once he grows up if once attaining the age of being able to think for himself he chooses to not be muslim. This seems to go against the very essence of freedom to choose your own religion. Am I wrong? Isn't Allah(swt) the only one who can guide? What if He(swt) decides not to guide a specific child born to muslim parents..... how can we kill him.

I should also mention that according to wikipedia, Ibn Taymyiah held the view that only apostasy when coupled with treason or slander or active work against islam should be worthy of the death penalty... Did he actually hold this view or is this just lies against him?

Salam a leikum

[Sampharo]

:sl:

Brother Salam, your question is valid and shows you are careful to understand and comprehend the different aspects of your religion well enough in order to enhance your faith. And that is valid and to be supported. Some people face what they don't understand and try to change it in their minds to something acceptable, or look for a single sheikh to give them an alternate ruling that would go with their desires, which is an unfortunate weakness and may God make us all stronger. You are not like that though and I am glad you asked rather than do like many modern muslims who simply choose to take the opinion of a very small minority, that there should be no punishment for apostasy.

First, before the explanation, here is the nass el-hokm (statement of ruling), as per an authentic hadith from the prophet who said: "The blood of a muslim is not halal except in three: Apostacy after Islam, murder of another muslim, and adultery after marriage." also, there is another in Sahih Al-Bukhary narrated by Ibn Abbas: "“Whoever changes his religion (out of Islam), put him to death.” This is a direct ruling with no ambiguity. Additionally, the solid documented history of the prophet and the four Khalifas showed many situations were this punishment was applied on apostates, and explanation of its rulings and conditions was comprehensive. The prophet -pbuh- did it, and on women as well, Abu Bakr waged a whole war on apostates, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab applied it and said that the repentence period is three days, Uthman Ibn Affan upheld it, Ali upheld it and was of the opinion that repentence is one month (and there was an incident where the execution was done by burning the apostates and Ibn Abbas sent to him that the prophet -pbuh- has forbidden using such a method ever, that it is God's sole method of punishment.)

Now, the reasoning behind it is as such: God says in his glorious book: "وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ" {I have only created Jinns and men, that they may worship and serve Me} [51:56] and based on this, our very existence is to worship and serve God, Allah -SAW-. This life, this world is nothing but a testing ground to see who worships God the most, who worships less, and who joins Satan and his league and disbelieves in God and deals with his religion with arrogance and pride.

If a person did not hear of God's message, and when he does, he doesn't necessarily believe it at first, That is ok, they have that right. There is no compulsion in religion "لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ". That is because anyway you CANNOT literally force someone to BELIEVE something. You can force or threaten someone into declaring that God is there, but no amount of force or threatening can make people believe. Otherwise, if there is no belief, and a person was forced to do prayer or forced to not eat until sunset, then how can there be a reward and punishment? So people are left to make their own choices, in their own time. Some will die dis-believers, and God will punish them. Some will revert to God's religion and be good muslims, so they will reap the rewards. Some will not hear the message, and those God will judge them with his wisdom and justice that overshadows our knowledge and judgement. They have a chance to become muslim maybe until the last breath on their death beds, and that is their choice.

If a person enters Islam and then leaves, that is a different matter. Because then his choice is over and it has been made. As per Umar ibn El-Khattab who says this is the way the prophet -pbuh- dictated, an apostate is locked up for three days being given basic sustenance. A person of knowledge then speaks with him everyday, for the person might have doubt, might have been misinformed, or might be insane temporarily or terminally. Those three days gives the apostate the chance to review himself, and revise his decision, and contemplate, and allows the person of knowledge to answer his question and to assess if he is mentally sound or not. If he is sound of mind and has no interest whatsoever in Islam, then his purpose in life as per the verse {I have only created Jinns and men, that they may worship and serve Me} is over. A non-believer might any day decide to join, but this one, and after being given the chance to repent for three days or one month (Ali prefers a month because he says he understood from the prophet that ample time is the key. Ali Ibn Abi Taleb of course was jurisprudence and Fiqh wise better than Umar) still insist that they won't be muslims, which means that they will NEVER be.

On top of that, there is no chance that a person who apostates from Islam will ever be truthful towards it. They will fight Islam verbally or physically and hold people against it, and try to misguide them by their own stories. So it becomes a combined punishment, of removal of purpose first and of treason second.

As you can see, the basic wisdom of the punishment of apostasy is applicable to both a person who joins Islam, as well as that who was born into it. The one who is born into it and then leaves as an adult despite being exposed to it will still be a traitor (you don't have to have acquired an american nationality to be considered a traitor if you're fighting against them, do you?) as well as irreversibly mushrek and therefore has no more purpose.

There are of course conditions and rules to follow when applying the punishment. Reasons not to apply the punishment other than repentence or the person being found not of sound mind: ignorance, misunderstanding, being forced, and making mistakes.

As for Ibn Taymeyya, he actually described two types of apostasy, ordinary and extreme, for which BOTH deserve the death penalty. However he said the extreme apostacy need no repentence or waiting time. An example of an extreme apostate is like Al-Hallaj in Iraq, who claimed divinity and belief in re-incarnation. He claimed to be God, and was put to death without asking him to repent. Ibn Taymeyya said that al-muhareb or fighters against Islam can be verbal as well as physical, and that verbal fighting is worse than physical, and that all apostates if they do not repent must be put to death.

All these can be found in his books. So the stories that he did not approve of this are wrong.

The punishment for apostasy was actually set from the days of Moses, and it still stands in the modern day jewish scripture:

Deuteronomy
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
13:17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

And there is this incident:

Exodus
32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
32:29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.


So in conclusion, I hope that I provided you with a fullfiling explanation regarding the death penalty for apostacy, and that there is no difference between embracing Islam and being born muslim in apostacy. Most importantly I hope your view is also corrected regarding Ibn Taymeyya.

And God always knows best

[alcurad]

no compulsion in religion means exactly that, killing one who has left Islam is not allowed except in special cases. at the time of the prophet, goverment and religion were more intertwined than now, so it can't be applied to nowadays, the same for the people after him.
otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away,,

[yusuf18]

no compulsion in religion means exactly that, killing one who has left Islam is not allowed except in special cases. at the time of the prophet, goverment and religion were more intertwined than now, so it can't be applied to nowadays, the same for the people after him.
otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away,,

for the one who leaves the deen of al islam rightly derseves his head cut of

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[Sampharo]

Brother Alcurad,

You might feel like you wish things different Astaghferallah, but don't take things with ignorance my friend. These verses have been interpreted and studied and commented upon by those far more knowledgable than you and me and have had proven incidents from the prophet and his sahaba. There was no nation before Fath Makka and apostacy punishment was applied, and it was applied to women, and it was applied before and after. WHat you say suggests that Abu Bakr and Omar and Ali and all the sahaba from there till Al-Albani god bless his soul got it wrong, and 99% of today's scholars are also getting it wrong.

The four imams have agreed on it as well with the exception of Abu Hanefa who says women can be spared, while Ahmed Ibn Hanbal and Malik and Shafei say no such thing.

I am with you that there is no Islamic state today, but Islam was not made differently according to different conditions, and the sahaba could not have violated the Quranic verse thinking that it doesn't reflect their conditions. The verse is about entering fresh into Islam, and the Hadith from the prophet that I mentioned: "Whomever changes his religion (out of Islam), put him to death" is authenticated and in Sahih Al-Bukhary, and has no conditioning.

Finally I sense a bit of hostility from you in the last sentence when you said I shouldn't pretend to follow it while explaining it away. My brother I am not explaining, and this is not my personal thought up opinion, this is the stated ruling in Islam agreed upon by scholars. Please don't accuse me of something I actually warn others not to do, and that is to interpret things based on their whims.

And may God give you guidance.

[alcurad]

^and that, yusuf18 is why we need to learn more before we speak,,

[yusuf18]

no no brother islam is not a gym membership were you can leave it /ITS THE TRUTH/ and if you look to the sunnah who ever appostated got beheaded and i back it 100 percent infact i would i do worse allhu akbar

[Sampharo]

Easy yusuf. :) An apostate is held by the authorized magistrate or judge and is checked on his sanity and discussed with to give a chance to repent as was ordered in Islam. Afterwards they are put to death by a trained executioner without mutilation, keep your samurai sword holstered my friend. :)

[alcurad]

there's a difference between treason and changing one's religion, if one leads to the other, the ruling applies, otherwise it doesn't.

the prophet knew of many apostates, yet never did anything about them, the hadeeth kill whomever changes his religion was not accepted as authentic by many.

a minor note:all the hudood are mentioned in the qur'an, such as cutting the hand for thieves etc, killing an apostate is not mentioned, so it is not a hadd.

[Sampharo]

there's a difference between treason and changing one's religion, if one leads to the other, the ruling applies, otherwise it doesn't.

the prophet knew of many apostates, yet never did anything about them, the hadeeth kill whomever changes his religion was not accepted as authentic by many.

a minor note:all the hudood are mentioned in the qur'an, such as cutting the hand for thieves etc, killing an apostate is not mentioned, so it is not a hadd.

Alcurad, you need to have the humility to say "In My Opinion" when you are speaking from personal feelings rather than speaking of actual facts and scholarly declared rulings. This is your opinion at the end of the day and you can reject knowledge and principals, but please don't confuse others by saying things that are categorically not true like that the hadith is not authentic and all that. That goes against evidence and proven science and agreed upon consensus. The hadith "Whomever changes his religion..." is authentic, it is in Sahih Al-Bukhary, as for the first hadith "The blood of a muslim is not halal except in three: Apostacy after Islam...." it is Mutafaqon Aleih, which means it is solid in narrative authenticity and confirmation that both Al-Bukhary and Moslem agreed on it and happened upon its sources.

Brother to suggest a hadith is not authentic when you have no knowledge of how to judge is a silly thing, but nevertheless it is between you and God. What further proves authenticity is that the prophet, Abu Bakr, Omar, and the others ordered to put to death apostates in documented incidents and proven judgements that was not necessarily connected with war or military treason.

Above all else, you said something in the end that I need to warn you about brother: "... killing an apostate is not mentioned, so it is not a hadd.". Look, this is where your argument got into dangerous territory for you my brother. Do NOT ever say anything that suggests that Sunnah or the prophet's rulings are deniable and that you only take what is in the Quran. That statement is associated with rejecting belief in the prophet Mohammed -pbuh- being the sent infallible messenger and is one of the six tenets of of faith (his messengers). :omg:
Beware my brother and don't go there! Istaghferallah for us and you. Say that you still do not believe the hadith is real, that is up to you although wrong. Say even that you doubt the work of the scholars from beginning of time till tomorrow noon, that is still up to you although any sin you do out of such ignorance you will still be responsible for. But do not say that the prophet's hadith and ruling does not count for one reason or another, you are knocking on one of VERY few doors of kufr, and if you look in this forum you will find that I am one of the biggest supporters of keeping those doors to the minimum that was dictated by the prophet and am one in protecting the sanctity of people's faith from frivalous accusations of kufr, however that statement knocks on one of those doors, so I beg of you to walk away. A hadith by the prophet and his orders ARE sources of jurisprudence ruling on their own on hodoud or anything else.


May God grant you peace be with you brother.

[alcurad]

I don't think you understood wht I wrote, my fault for not clarifying:
I was speaking of the second hadeeth's sanad, it goes:عكرمة عن ابن عباس
and some scholars said 'ikrima's narrations are not accepted. 'ikrima here is the servant of Ibn Abbas.

however, this isn't the only reason I base my position on-obviously- more later,,

[alcurad]

I don't think you understood wht I wrote, my fault for not clarifying:
I was speaking of the second hadeeth's sanad, it goes:عكرمة عن ابن عباس
and some scholars said 'ikrima's narrations are not accepted. 'ikrima here is the servant of Ibn Abbas.

however, this isn't the only reason I base my position on-obviously- more later,,

[جوري]

I don't think you understood wht I wrote, my fault for not clarifying:
I was speaking of the second hadeeth's sanad, it goes:عكرمة عن ابن عباس
and some scholars said 'ikrima's narrations are not accepted. 'ikrima here is the servant of Ibn Abbas.

however, this isn't the only reason I base my position on-obviously- more later,,

excellent link on the matter:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html

:w:

[Sampharo]

excellent link on the matter:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html (Islam and Apostasy)

Granted. But that notion is only adopted by a sheer minority of scholars, most of them are modern. Based on the four schools of jurisprudence as I mentioned the apostacy punishment does not get held back because of lack of warring or abandoning the Islamic community or premeditated confusion. Omar Ibn Al-Khattab passed the apostacy laws on men who stayed within the community. Once he told off a tribe for doing it without holding the three days minimum required for repenetence (Mosnad Ahmed) but approved that they should apply it.

I am the biggest opposer of 'takfir'ing people, and I hold it so highly that calling someone with kufr, or digging behind people's apostacy is worse than fighting muslims, and I think you can see my opinions clearly on the "War in Southern Somalia almost over" thread. I do not make "emotive opinions" because I do not publish opinions that are personally mine to start with, nor do I publish things that are personally motivated. I have three degrees in Islamic sciences from the Abu Dhabi islamic foundation, as well as studied in Al-Azhar. I am one year away from earning my Master's degree in the Islamic University in Malaysia, and I still will not give personal opinions about these matters, because there is no Ijtihad where there is a Nass, meaning there is no studying and analyzing new opinions when there is a set law dictated literally in authentic hadith or the Quran. The apostacy law is upheld by 95% of the World's scholars of today and yesteryears, including Al-Albani, Ibn Taymeyya, Al-Thahabi, Al-Qortobi, Abu Dawood, the four Imams Ibn Hanbal, Shafei, Abu Haneefa, and Malik, in addition to having been held and applied by the four Kholafaa' Rashidoon and Omar Ibn Abdul Aziz. Additionally, Al-Azhar and all Sunni universities around the Islamic school holds this as an official stance, even though it isn't applied and a few young students or teachers mistakenly feel it is too harsh and try to explain around it. Unless someone is learned enough to find fault with their method and shows his support from direct Hadith and Quran, it is a very weak opinion, so if it's that extreme in the minority, I only say then to at least say that it is, and I believe that you should be doing that rather than asking others.

On a personal note, I do think that you are too fast to judge people -I AM married and never laid a finger on my wife who is the joy of my life- and YES I also do think that you are grouchy! :giggling:

As for Alcurid, the hadith like you say that is not authentic, it takes a very high scholar to make a statement about a hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhary. I understand what you say about some scholars saying that Ekrema shouldn't have his hadith's accepted, but it doesn't mean a whole ruling with its attached laws should be discarded when there are other hadiths confirming them and a plethora of documented incidents confirming the stance has been executed and carried out with precise explanation of methodology. You are more than welcome of course to ask or to raise questions or to bring certain arguments to discuss and explore. I will also learn more no doubt.

And God knows best

[جوري]

If you have a matter of personal concern, I suggest you take it out where appropriate in lieu of meandering a topic by way of emotional catharsis..

what you do in your personal life is no concern of mine.. but what you advise or advocate so publicly with definitiveness and authority without firm knowledge is another.
I'd also like to remind you just in case you were not familiar with projection that it was you who'd left a negative in my CP don't come in the same breath to speak of haste and judgment...

I am glad to see you feverous of your point of views.. they are not however shared by the majority and I'd actually go the mile to say that Br. Ansar al'Adl (as per above topic and in concert with the thread) is probably the best of us in education when it comes to Islamic Jurisprudence and the science of hadith...
I would venture to recommend you use the search feature to familiarize with the topics here at length before rehashing the same all again.

If I can find an opinion to negate yours on Islamonline, or even mere superficial personal survey of the prophet Mohammed (p) life and interactions (and I do) then frankly, I don't see how I can put any weightiness to what you write as I am yet to see your qualifications when it comes to Islamic scholarship! (there is more to the practice than you stating it is a consensus amongst sunni scholars) can't really butter anyone's bread with your assurances! and if you can then my God? what are you doing on a forum? you should use that expertise in the appropriate chanels!

things aren't as black and white as all that.. Al'mo'emin faten above all, and wise, every situation is tailored differently, it isn't a one size fits all.


so far, I haven't seen much wisdom in:
1- belittling or and I quote call other Muslims 'misguided and principally wrong', as I indeed remind you the thread you negatively repped me on was written by Br. Yusuf Estes and not my person I beg to see your qualifications first before we venture into his (amongst others)?! especially when equally valid, sound, with proof either from the Quran or sunna.
2- leaving negatives for others and then crying wolf about it in an entirely unrelated thread.
3- straying off topic simply to appease oneself over not having the last word!
4- baiting someone who has no interest in addressing you in this topic by discussing an issue completely unrelated to this thread!

perhaps you can do us both a favor and steer clear of my path? the last thing I need is a winded lecture from a pseudo-scholar or at least go about it with some grace, you won't end up being such a sore itch on people' side!

Now with that being said, we can get back to apostasy, although all there is of it has already been discussed or if the thread has lost all value that it be closed all together!

all the best

:w:

[Sampharo]

what you do in your personal life is no concern of mine.. but what you advise or advocate so publicly with definitiveness and authority without firm knowledge is another.
I'd also like to remind you just in case you were not familiar with projection that it was you who'd left a negative in my CP don't come in the same breath to speak of haste and judgment...

I didn't leave negative on your CP except that you closed that thread against any further posting (maybe someone else closed it but the outcome was the same) AND you have turned off your private messaging system. I know that I have no ... what do they call it here.. "Rep power" to leave anything negative but it was the only way to, yes poke at you, the only way to reach you since you apparently are all closed up in communications!

My belief in what I write extends from that of whom I learned from and the fact that was echoed across the board. So excuse me if YES I will be very protective that a minority contemprory misguided translation gets presented as the global consensus, when any Arab secondary school student of religion would be surprised at the notion of "have intercourse" when the very incident of the verse is well known, the interpretation has been spoken clearly by the prophet and the Sahaba, in addition to the illogical conclusion as to have intercourse, when the step right before it is "deny them intercourse"!

If I can find an opinion to negate yours on Islamonline, or even mere superficial personal survey of the prophet Mohammed (p) life and interactions (and I do) then frankly, I don't see how I can put any weightiness to what you write as I am yet to see your qualifications when it comes to Islamic scholarship!

I wasn't trying to get you to accept my opinion or adopt it, and I don't need to show all my qualifications in order to have anyone accept my quotations. I simply bring verifiable information that ANYONE can go online and double check, and that is the opinion of the FATHERS of jurisprudence and the established scholars from old until today's academics. Academics today have differences, and just like I mentioned elsewhere, it is the consensus and majority ruling that keeps things in check from both gun-totting takfir everyone backyard lunatics and modernization liberals who wish to change things to be more fashionable in Western-style concepts. I am in the middle and I am proud to be where the vast majority of scholars are.

If you wish to present an opinion, then present it all that you wish. When someone asks though about "does Islam say this and that" then the response needs to be with solid narration of the original hadiths that produce those rulings and more importantly has the PRIMARY REFERENCES and SECONDARY ANALYSIS that support those opinions. The Sunnah that was collected and processed across tens of thousands of scholars back when seeking enlightened knowledge in Islam was a most prestigeous practice and produced the shining examples and stars of the four Imams of the four Math-habs and Ibn Taymeyya and Sayyed Sabeq and etc.. Some new age professor or European school of theology scholar came up with a new idea or ijtihad? Good for him or her, but until it becomes consensus across the academic world and gets the books to be rewritten then it stays as the minority view that may be mentioned for the sake of hearing all sides.

And if you want to check the consensus, pick up the phone and check the Azhar school you said your uncles graduated from and tell them Daraba means have intercourse and see their reaction, or ask them if apostacy has no Hadd ruling and that there is freedom of religion in leaving Islam. Anybody you reach that tells you yes, let me know his name, the Dean will review whether they need to repeat their secondary school education or not! As a matter of fact, if you wish to contact my mother be my guest, unlike me she's an established scholar who gets invited all over Egypt to teach and educate and still lives back there full time, why don't you email her to see if any of Al-Azhar or Omar Abd El-Kafi group or Mustafa Mahmoud Mosque circles would agree with those concepts.

Consensus is the key, that is the definition of majority. Islamonline has those who argue against apostacy laws (saw two postings or articles about them) but has 12 approving and confirming the validity right there on the website. You can at the very least recognize the factual statements that I am writing: that those are indeed are the opinions of the four Imams of jurisprudence as written in their books and the opinions of great scholars like Ibn Taymeyya and whomever else I quoted. Forget what I am saying regarding the consensus of modern scholars, just check what the math-habs dictate, before launching new rulings as "Islamic rulings" and it goes against all of their teachings, not to mention the original traditions and scripture.

they are not however shared by the majority and I'd actually go the mile to say that Br. Ansar al'Adl (as per above topic and in concert with the thread) is probably the best of us in education when it comes to Islamic Jurisprudence and the science of hadith

Islam is learned from primary and secondary references and multitude of established scholars. For the latter I depend on my professors at the university. I educate myself ABOUT tertiary modern analysis, but they mostly expand on something already established, or they make an error if they want to go against the establishment. When I say majority, I refer to established opinions in the mothers of books, as in how many of the four imams agree on something, how many of the closest Sahaba were of that opinion, and how many of my professors or teachers are of that opinion. I don't take a census on every matter, but when apostacy was discussed not a single colleague or teacher ever suggested it doesn't stand anymore. And the consensus is as I described earlier, that the four Imams agree on apostacy hodoud along with all Sahaba applying them and more modern sheikhs confirming them. I never thought in my life I would be like this because I am aquarius and since I was young I was so violently against the status quo and always looking for ways to shake the establishment. However I guess Islam changes everything in a person. :) I'ld love to learn from anyone, and I will be happy to read more of what's written, but I know enough to recognize the difference and mostly, if it tries to suggest that 14 centuries of scholars and the sahaba got it wrong, forgive me but it already means that the opinion is headed south and my read becomes purely entertainment. I would also be inclined to make new posts if it wasn't already made in those threads drawing attention to the origin of Islamic rulings and what the opinions are.

I would venture to recommend you use the search feature to familiarize with the topics here at length before rehashing the same all again.

I am sure there are other learned individuals all over and maybe know more than me, and would be happy to read across and learn if something is new. If somebody asks something specific, why can't he be answered specifically though? There's no rehashing, there's expansion and possibly, correction. And I am sure there will be a time when I am corrected. Otherwise we might as well close the questions concept completely and tell people to just search on Google!

(there is more to the practice than you stating it is a consensus amongst sunni scholars) can't really butter anyone's bread with your assurances! and if you can then my God? what are you doing on a forum? you should use that expertise in the appropriate chanels

A simple check of the books would suffice to say what the opinion of the grand scholars are. Verify if you like. Like I said I don't publish personal opinions because those of the grand scholars old and new were comprehensive enough anyway, so it's much better for me to simply quote them, and only fill in small blanks here and there. That is the method of Arab sheikhs and scholars anyway:

1- To state the original text as per Quran and Sunnah and Hadith
2- To present the interpretation as per the consensus of the primary sources like Sahihein and Tafsir Ibn Katheer and such when needed, mentioning a difference if there is one between them.
3- To present the consensus ruling and opinion amongst the secondary sources, like the four Imams, Ibn Taymeyya, Sayed Sabek etc. if there is one. If there isn't a consensus, they mention that it is still a matter of difference. This is where a scholar can apply ijtihad and that's when an analysis is made and some scholars differ with one another and it can be presented as such.

Apostacy hadd and the interpretation of "wadrebohanna" were NOT under any difference. Therefore the opinion is more than sufficiently presented as such. Nobody is censoring that no one else can say otherwise, but to do so then proof and supporting evidence that makes sense needs to be presented, and more importantly that new opinion will stand as the minority, it cannot be used to debunk completely a consensus that was established by the scholars on a forum without it being widely agreed upon in academic circles first and having them adopted as adjustment. Something that DID happen in very few cases (VERY few cases, and the proof and evidence was provided from newly authenticated hadith). Why am I here on the forum? Because it is fun! :) And yes I do spend some time speaking to small groups in small masjeds about basic matters because I am waiting for my masters degree.

Al'mo'emin faten above all, and wise, every situation is tailored differently, it isn't a one size fits all.

Absolutely agree, but the two areas that we had differences upon were areas of pure Islamic constants of consensus. The four Imams not only differed amongst them, but also changed things based on circumstances and countries. Shafei made adjustments when he went to Egypt for example because necessities on the ground required it. Constants though were always constants, and neither I nor you can decide to change them here on the forum.

1- belittling or and I quote call other Muslims 'misguided and principally wrong', as I indeed remind you the thread you negatively repped me on was written by Br. Yusuf Estes and not my person I beg to see your qualifications first before we venture into his (amongst others)?! especially when equally valid, sound, with proof either from the Quran or sunna.

I apologize for the rep, I thought this was the only way to reach you. And my earlier post here as you can see was an explanation and response to your negative rep that you gave me in return, which called my posting an emotional opinion when it is nothing more than quotations and direct research from the mother of books, and reflects what the four Imams have agreed upon and was continually reflected by the grand scholars who came afterwards. You also said I was making takfir on people, which I highly resent because I am the exact opposite. Apostacy law being applicable as per the agreement of all Sahaba and imams does not mean that I am the one who is saying anyone is a kafir. Anyway, that said, I repeat my apology for a wrong way of contact. The opinion you published on the other hand was misguided, and your reaction to redicule the prophet's hadith of miswak and then close the thread was very offensive. You need to recognize that.

As for brother Yusuf Estes that you mentioned, I swear I mean no disrespect to him by what I am about to say, but unless he has a fifth math-hab and is recognized as a new Imam who abolishes the other four math-habs, I do not see how his qualifications can have anything to do with his opinion being against the consensus of the four schools of jurisprudence: Maliki, Hanbali, Haneefi, and Shafeii, as well as the Sahaba's practices.

leaving negatives for others and then crying wolf about it in an entirely unrelated thread-straying off topic simply to appease oneself over not having the last word-baiting someone who has no interest in addressing you in this topic by discussing an issue completely unrelated to this thread

I already apologized for the rep, and yes you're right i wouldn't contact you again. But if you publish something unauthentic or confusing to readers I will do everything required to make sure that proper Islamic rulings are published as well so as not to misguide the readers. If that still pisses you off, then I am not apologetic and you can do as you like.

:wasalamex

[جوري]

I didn't leave negative on your CP

You did indeed..

except that you closed that thread against any further posting (maybe someone else closed it but the outcome was the same)

*
I don't have the ability to close any thread!

AND you have turned off your private messaging system. I know that I have no ... what do they call it here.. "Rep power" to leave anything negative but it was the only way to, yes poke at you, the only way to reach you since you apparently are all closed up in communications!

and the fact of the matter is, I closed my PM system after you gave the negative, because I am all too familiar with your type!
one thing for sure, I didn't get this far by being stupid.. and it isn't becoming of a Muslim to be a liar?!
and has it occurred to you, that I have no interest in lines of communication with you? Do take a hint!

My belief in what I write extends from that of whom I learned from and the fact that was echoed across the board. So excuse me if YES I will be very protective that a minority contemprory misguided translation gets presented as the global consensus, when any Arab secondary school student of religion would be surprised at the notion of "have intercourse" when the very incident of the verse is well known, the interpretation has een spoken clearly by the prophet and the Sahaba, in addition to the illogical conclusion as to have intercourse, when the step right before it is "deny them intercourse"!

Amazingly other people (Arabic speakers) can look at the same passage and come up with a completely different conclusion and still back it up!
what does that say about your puerile stances and approach?
Perhaps indeed you need to mature past your second grade education?

I wasn't trying to get you to accept my opinion or adopt it, and I don't need to show all my qualifications in order to have anyone accept my quotations. I simply bring verifiable information that ANYONE can go online and double check, and that is the opinion of the FATHERS of jurisprudence and the established scholars from old until today's academics. Academics today have differences, and just like I mentioned elsewhere, it is the consensus and majority ruling that keeps things in check from both gun-totting takfir everyone backyard lunatics and modernization liberals who wish to change things to be more fashionable in Western-style concepts. I am in the middle and I am proud to be where the vast majority of scholars are.

There is no modernization, there is simply a bubble where you have chosen to cocoon yourself, as I have linked my articles to Islamonline, as far as I am concerned they have some standards as to whom they allow to respond back to everyday questions...

Let's pose you a few questions (not that I wish to turn an apostasy thread) to a session purging you out of humiliation as it so happens even rasool Allah swt used to consult with 13 year olds.. and here you come leader of the pack and holder of the flame, passing takifr, and mocking... (thank God for your presence here, for without it, what would we have done?)

Did the prophet SAW beat any of his wives?
Was the prophet the best of charcters?
Did the prophet forbid people from slapping on the face?
Can any of the Muslim men now adays be likened to the prophet?

if you have answered any of the above with some sincertity
Then how is it that you feel so free to make an allowance of something he didn't?

If you wish to present an opinion, then present it all that you wish. When someone asks though about "does Islam say this and that" then the response needs to be with solid narration of the original hadiths that produce those rulings and more importantly has the PRIMARY REFERENCES and SECONDARY ANALYSIS that support those opinions. The Sunnah that was collected and processed across tens of thousands of scholars back when seeking enlightened knowledge in Islam was a most prestigeous practice and produced the shining examples and stars of the four Imams of the four Math-habs and Ibn Taymeyya and Sayyed Sabeq and etc.. Some new age professor or European school of theology scholar came up with a new idea or ijtihad? Good for him or her, but until it becomes consensus across the academic world and gets the books to be rewritten then it stays as the minority view that may be mentioned for the sake of hearing all sides.

Indeed, folks got to hear (read) all sides also sourced, so how is it that you are the authority? least of which on this thread.. The whole point of reading a ruling from both angels is using sound knowledge to draw the conclusion as to which is most correct not beat your opinion into people by force!

And if you want to check the consensus, pick up the phone and check the Azhar school you said your uncles graduated from and tell them Daraba means have intercourse and see their reaction, or ask them if apostacy has no Hadd ruling and that there is freedom of religion in leaving Islam. Anybody you reach that tells you yes, let me know his name, the Dean will review whether they need to repeat their secondary school education or not! As a matter of fact, if you wish to contact my mother be my guest, unlike me she's an established scholar who gets invited all over Egypt to teach and educate and still lives back there full time, why don't you email her to see if any of Al-Azhar or Omar Abd El-Kafi group or Mustafa Mahmoud Mosque circles would agree with those concepts.

Again, you need to switch gears a little, there is a whole other world that exists outside of your bubble.
Egypt really has a long way to go, before you talk to me about scholarship, I wonder where that zeal was when they were putting to death folks like sayed qutb? If egypt were as fabulous as all that 'least of which when it comes to uloom il'ahadith' then the best anti-orintalists books wouldn't be coming from folks like Dr. Muhammad -Al-Azami (an Indian) currently living in KSA.
Not folks passing fatwas everyday without proper knowledge in Arabic/Hadith or even science.. Egypt needs scholars not fatwa passers if it plans to survive.. and some mild tempered folks who aren't of the same spawn that is running their country!


anyhow after this I got tired of reading, and it doesn't actually take much to refute you.. try to make your points precise and to the point as possible as to not drown us in all this logorrhea, you remind me of the minister on board (Grace seeker) if he can't dazzle you with science he'll drown you in BS..

really the point is lost to most if you'll write a sermon every time someone's point of view doesn't agree with yours!

just familirize yourself with the art of a debate.. so you address a point more and fillers less.. that is if you expect folks to actually sit there and read what you write..


all the best

:w:

[Sampharo]

just familirize yourself with the art of a debate.. so you address a point more and fillers less..

The one decent useful thing that can be taken from your post, an advice that you should give to no one but yourself and desparately need to follow. You are so conceited with your insults and personal attacks on me that you have failed to even make an ounce of sense. You are attacking the Azhar school knowledge that YOU used to claim correctness of your post on women, and said your uncles graduated from there earlier, and you still claim that I am imposing my personal opinion on everyone despite repeating a hundred times that this is the verifiable opinion of the four math-habs and other great scholars that I named and quoted, and if you had spent an hour of islamic learning, you would know that this is the proper way of presenting Islamic rulings and arguments.

You however appear to prefer on raging the argument into more and more belligerent ignorant drivel and direct insults, and only seem to be learning from Islamonline.net and obscure names at the margins of islamic research. There's no reasoning with the likes of you and no need to worry over thinking you misunderstood. You are obviously as misguided as they come, so enjoy. But don't take yourself out of your real place because you obviously have little to offer other than plaster a "Tom, Dick and Harry" opinion from some website and then want the thread closed.

If you can refute my opinion, then why didn't you? Anything? Or just another Islamonline posting of the minority opinion where anyone can search and get the opposing vast majority one?
Present the rulings that show those Imams and Sahaba and Tabeien and Scholars across time actually believe that Wadrebohonna is to "Have intercourse", or that any of them said "Oh when the Islamic state is divided, DON'T hold the apostacy law, it is just when we were one nation and were fighting, that's all!" You're so delusional you're actually calling the entire source of Islamic knowledge in the World and the way 99% of Islamic states set their shariah rules as my "bubble"?!?! Wake up and smell the innovation and hypertension!

Now I can whole-heartedly tell you to go sell those delusions all that you want but nobody here is buying. You don't know me, you don't know what I learned, you don't know how to express yourself, you don't know islamic methodology, you don't know what is right or wrong in islamic analysis, and frankly you are now just annoying and abusive and seem to think the "bully" role you're taking actually isn't screamingly obvious, or you think it can actually work.


May you be healed. I am done with this.

[doorster]

An other Qutbi? islamqa fanboy? or what? :( :( :(

[doorster]

no compulsion in religion means exactly that, killing one who has left Islam is not allowed except in special cases. at the time of the prophet, goverment and religion were more intertwined than now, so it can't be applied to nowadays, the same for the people after him.
otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away,,

:thumbs_up (almost agree completely)

I like some of Maududi while some of his writing gives the impression that he was living a millenia or 2 ago and that everyone had the same job or function or worth to the khilafat

[Sampharo]

no compulsion in religion means exactly that, killing one who has left Islam is not allowed except in special cases. at the time of the prophet, goverment and religion were more intertwined than now, so it can't be applied to nowadays, the same for the people after him.
otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away,,

:thumbs_up (almost agree completely)

Not that I want to raise this up again. But I think if I don't it will still be confusing for readers.

Your interpretation of "No Compulsion in Religion" and saying it means exactly that, seems to suggest that you are applying an established opinion against a minority one. That is not accurate nor true. Your opinion overrides ALL the books of interpretation including Ibn Kathir and Ibn Hisham and more importantly Al-Qurtubi which is the primary source of Islamic Rulings from Quran. Please feel free to review them.

As for government and religion being more intertwined at the days of the prophet, it has been the opinion of the four Imams and all scholars until today, that lack of a single unified Islamic state while being a temporary hurdle to execution of Islamic rulings, it doesn't cancel or abrogate them indifinitely. It was applied in the days of Ibn Taymeyya when the Islamic nation was separate entities, and the concept of separating Islam and government is Western secularism to start with.

As for "otherwise, dismiss the verse completely, but don't pretend to follow it while actually explaining it away", this suggests that (1) I have a personal opinion that i infused into this matter (2) The opinion I mentioned is a new one that challenges the current acceptable wisdom while yours is the established one, and (3) that your explanation is fixed on the verse and I am the one who's interpreting it differently.

As for (1), I already mentioned that this is not a personal opinion and neither I nor you could introduce such personal opinion into a settled matter of solid indisputed ruling. As for (2) The apostacy rule was dictated by more than one authenticated Hadith, practiced by the prophet and the sahaba with proven documented incidents in history, and further explicitly pronounced in the Islamic sciences books of all four math-habs and jurisprudence. That is also the opinion of most other leading scholars, old such as Ibn Taymeyya, Al-Thahabi, or new such as Al-Ghazali or Al-Qaradawi. Your opinion is only introduced by some modern scholars, mostly western, who are a minority and are introducing various explanations and excuses for only some of the situations of why apostacy was applied. As for (3) The interpretation of the Quran verse is presented by the totality of authenticated and relied upon books of interpretation. It is your approach that is not mentioned in any books of Tafsir.

That and above all, I do realize that some (a minority yet still recognizable) respectable scholars have dialed down the apostacy law application, and find enough argument to say that if there is doubt in the conditions of such a matter it is safer not to apply it. However they did not go as far as denying or cancelling the whole law or reversing the interpretation of the verses or denying authenticated Sahih Al-Bukhary Hadiths and confirmed historical incidents. That is called TaAAteel تعطيل, and is not something true scholars of Islam and leaders of schools of jurisprudence do.

[جوري]

The apostacy rule was dictated by more than one authenticated Hadith, practiced by the prophet.

Did the prophet SAW execute anyone for apostasy? If so please show us the instances where the prophet executed someone for said treason!

one should draw his logic from the actions of the prophet himself -- I have let go of your previous tirade, since I have no interest in descending into word play with you-- yet here we are again at the cross roads with you making an injunction of something that scholars are divided upon. so what makes your opinion definitive?

I think Ansar who is as scholarly as one gets on this forum has covered the topic quite well, and if not enough, there is a whole dialogue on apostasy with a Muslim scholar:

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialo...GuestID=Gz9HCK

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes a worldly punishment for apostasy. The Qur’an states the punishment only in the Hereafter. However, numerous verses in the Qur’an affirm freedom of religion and reject compulsion or coercion in religion; for example, see Chapter 2, verse 256.

In hadith, however, there are some texts signifying capital punishment for apostasy. However, scholars differed about the interpretation of these texts. Some made a distinction between apostasy which coupled with fighting against Muslims, committing a capital crime or committing an act of “high treason” against the state. According to this interpretation, capital punishment is because of these crimes, not mere leaving Islam. Other scholars made no such distinction. However, the first interpretation is supported by a number of other sound hadiths which show that when a man in Madinah apostated from Islam, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) neither ordered his execution nor punished him in any other way, and when the man finally left Madinah, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him or punish him because of his apostasy.

If indeed the capital punishment for apostasy is a hadd (specified mandatory punishment) one would expect that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would be the first one to implement the law of Allah.

These hdadiths are reported in Al-Bukhari, the most authentic collection of hadith, in the book of Al-Ahkaam which is found in the English translation by M. Mohsen Khan, Volume 9, hadith number 316, 318, and 323, pages 241, 242, and 246. They are also reported in Fath Al-Bari, volume 13 under Kitab Al-Ahkam, hadith number 7209, 7211, and 7216.

Again, apostasy declared against an Islamic state is indeed akin to treason and is punishable as one would punish any form of treason, even here in the united states as in the case of Ethyl and Julius Rosenberg-- punishment for treason is death.. however, if one is an apostate in and to himself, how are you even to know to carry out said punishment and what country in your opinion is currently governed under Islamic state to uphold that injunction?-- Does Egypt currently carry out that law for its apostates? Does KSA?

It is very important to know when such injunctions were passed and for what reason if in the least to not attribute an action to the Prophet SAW that he didn't carry out!

:w:

[Thinker]

Greeting respected Skye and others.

I think we have been here before but I can’t recall if I got an answer to my question . . . . .

The argument that the execution of apostates is justifiable because it is treason hinges on the existences of a ‘Muslim/Islamic state.’

Can you or anybody show me the text in Islam that defines ‘Islamic State;’ what constitutes an Islamic State? I think when this question was last posed it was loosely answered as the existence of a Caliph supposes that an Islamic state exists, the problem with that answer is, it doesn’t fit existing definitions of a ‘state.’

[جوري]

here is a quick shot, although I am still hoping you'd read the book I recommended for you on the other thread?

By IOL Team

14/08/2003

The Qur’an clearly states that the aim and purpose of the Islamic state is the establishment, maintenance and development of those virtues which the Creator wishes human life to be enriched by and the prevention and eradication of those evils in human life which He finds abhorrent. The Islamic state is intended neither solely as an instrument of political administration nor for the fulfillment of the collective will of any particular set of people. Rather, Islam places a high ideal before the state, which it must use all the means at its disposal to achieve.
This ideal is that the qualities of purity, beauty, goodness, virtue, success and prosperity which Allah wants to flourish in the life of humankind should be engendered and developed and that all kinds of exploitation, injustice and disorder which, in the sight of Allah, are ruinous for the world and detrimental to the life of His creatures, should be suppressed and prevented. Islam gives us a clear outline of its moral system by stating positively the desired virtues and the undesired evils. Keeping this outline in view, the Islamic state can plan its welfare policies in every era and in any context.
The constant demand made by Islam is that the principles of morality must be observed at all costs and in all walks of life. Hence, it lays down as an unalterable policy that the state should base its policies on justice, truth and honesty. It is not prepared, under any circumstances, to tolerate fraud, falsehood and injustice for the sake of political, administrative or so-called national interest. Whether it is domestic relations within the state, or international relations with other nations, precedence must always be given to truth, honesty and justice.
Islam has laid down universal fundamental rights for humanity
Islam imposes similar obligations on the state and the individual: to fulfill all contracts and obligations; to have uniform standards in all interactions and transactions; to remember obligations along with rights and not to forget the rights of others when expecting them to fulfill their obligations; to use power and authority for the establishment of justice and not for the perpetration of injustice; to look upon duty as a sacred obligation and to fulfill it scrupulously; and to regard power as a trust from Allah to be used in the belief that one has to render an account of one’s actions in this world but also, most importantly, to Him in the life hereafter.
Fundamental Rights
Although an Islamic state may be set up anywhere on earth, Islam does not seek to restrict human rights or privileges to the boundaries of such a state. Islam has laid down universal fundamental rights for humanity which are to be observed and respected in all circumstances. For example, human blood is sacred and may not be spilled without strong justification such as criminal punishment after a fair trial or in a just war; it is not permissible to oppress women, children, old people, the sick or the wounded; women’s honor and chastity must be respected. These rights are for all people, irrespective of whether they belong to the Islamic community — Muslims and non-Muslims alike — or are from amongst its enemies. These and other provisions have been laid down by Islam as fundamental rights for every human being by virtue of his status as a creation of Allah.
The Islamic state may not interfere with the personal rights of non-Muslims
Nor, in Islam, are the rights of citizenship confined to people born in a particular state. A Muslim ipso facto becomes the citizen of an Islamic state as soon as he sets foot on its territory with the intention of living there and thus enjoys equal rights along with those who acquire its citizenship by birth. And every Muslim is to be regarded as eligible for positions of the highest responsibility in an Islamic state without distinction of race, sex, color or class. These rights have been challenged, of course, by the division of the Muslim nation into nation states in the modern era after independence from colonialism. Many attempts have been made to unite these states but in vain, due to numerous reasons that can be discussed at length separately.
Islam has also laid down rights for non-Muslims who may be living within the boundaries of an Islamic state, and these rights necessarily form part of the Islamic constitution. The life, property and honor of non-Muslim citizens is to be respected and protected in exactly the same way as that of Muslim citizens. Nor is there difference between a Muslim and a non-Muslim citizen in respect of civil or criminal law, though there are differences in family law in respect of the diversity of religious practices and family codes.
The Islamic state may not interfere with the personal rights of non-Muslims, who have full freedom of conscience and belief and are at liberty to perform their religious rites and ceremonies in their own way.
Even if a non-Muslim state oppresses its Muslim citizens, it is not permissible for an Islamic state to retaliate against its own non-Muslim citizens. It may not unjustly shed the blood of a single non-Muslim citizen living within its boundaries.

More Articles:

• System of Rights:

Human Rights in Islam - In Times of War - Justice in Islam - Rights of Citizens in an Islamic State - Treat Them Kindly… Prisoners of War - The Pacifism of Islam - Of Torture and Abuse: Q & A Session - Human Rights and Islam

• Governance:

The Nature of the Islamic Political System -Forming An Islamic Democracy - Religion and Politics - Democracy in Islam - The Purpose of the Islamic State

http://www.islamonline.net/English/i...rticle02.shtml

[Sampharo]

Did the prophet SAW execute anyone for apostasy? If so please show us the instances where the prophet executed someone for said treason!

Yes he did, some examples:
- Abdullah Ibn Khatl, apostate ran to Makka along with two slaves of his. All killed except one of his slaves, she repented to the prophet.
- Maquis Ibn Sababa, ordered to be killed and executed after Fath Makka.
- Abdullah Ibn Qais's captive in Yemen (authenticated hadith that Moath asked Abdullah why he is tied, and when Abdullah said he was an apostate, Moath said he needs to be killed as per the prophet's orders, and asked for it to be done before he gets off his camel)
- Abdullah Ibn Saad Ibn Abi Sarh (repented in a famous incident between the hands of prophet after getting safe passage through Uthman Ibn Affan against the order to kill him. And the prophet said afterwards in an authenticated hadith "Wouldn't a clever man amongst understand me and could have killed him while I was still silent (i.e. before accepting his repentance)",
- Umm Marwan, repented, an authentic hadith for the prophet that they told him about her and she was of some stature, and -pbuh- said "If Umm Marwan apostated, kill her"

Check the books of Ibn Ishaaq, Al-Bairaqtany, Ibn Hisham, Moattaa Malik and the Sahih for confirmation of the above.

In hadith, however, there are some texts signifying capital punishment for apostasy. However, scholars differed about the interpretation of these texts. Some made a distinction between apostasy which coupled with fighting against Muslims, committing a capital crime or committing an act of “high treason” against the state. According to this interpretation, capital punishment is because of these crimes, not mere leaving Islam. Other scholars made no such distinction.

Don't see his post supporting your or brother alcurad's argument or necessarily negating what I wrote. He states clearly that he knows that there is consensus amongst scholars recognize the apostasy law, and that some see it attached to acts of anti-islam, while some don't. The only difference is that I brought forward clearer indication of those who don't see a distinction, and shown with evidence that they include all four imams of all schools of jurisprudence in addition to a plethora of other leading scholars in addition to the incidents showing the acts of the four Kholafa Rashidoon, which 90% or so of the muslim population are under (who are on the Sunnah). Alcurad and your argument was that there is no apostasy law because of the verse "no compulsion in religion".

however, if one is an apostate in and to himself, how are you even to know to carry out said punishment and what country in your opinion is currently governed under Islamic state to uphold that injunction?-- Does Egypt currently carry out that law for its apostates? Does KSA?

Apostates are those who declare it so, not those who lose faith silently. The definition of an apostate is one who declares himself no longer muslim and embracing another religion. And yes KSA carries it out, so does other Islamic countries but at low profile to keep from angering Uncle Sam, and Egypt is not listen to the Azhar council that is calling for it, but the secular government is choosing to keep the peace with the Orthodox church who continuously complains about christians converting to muslims.

I have let go of your previous tirade, since I have no interest in descending into word play with you--

You have Islamic questions to ask, ask them. Evidence to your arguments, show them. Points to discuss, stick to them. Otherwise you can simply be quiet and stay clear of trouble's path like you yourself suggested instead of rehashing with insinuating and disrespectful statements. My earlier post was a response to your own tirades, excessive bullying, abusive language, and lowly insinuations as well as straight up disrespectful rude insults. You don't have the right to disrespect anyone or use their opinion as grounds to redicule them or what they believe in, it's bad enough your redicule at that time went straight to an authentic hadith of the prophet with your punt on the miswak. By your statement "descending into word play with you" seems to be again an attempt to get a rise out of me or create grounds for more harrassment and this time I am not inclined to lose my cool, but I will tell you to your face to mind your manners and know your limits within the respectful community on the forum, neither I nor I think anyone here has interest in seeing any more antagonizing statements.

yet here we are again at the cross roads with you making an injunction of something that scholars are divided upon. so what makes your opinion definitive?

I am really not going to re-repeat what I am saying over and over and over again. people have already read that it is not my personal opinion and have read clearly what I wrote regarding what makes the MAJORITY of scholars' opinion as per evidence and quoting their own books to be the more weighted and acceptable in the Islamic community. For more, get someone to translate for you the following, otherwise what was already published should be more than enough for the sound of mind.

Since you like that website a lot:
http://www.islamonline.net/Arabic/co...rticle2a.shtml

.

ومن ثم أجمع فقهاء الإسلام على عقوبة المرتد، وإن اختلفوا في تحديدها، وجمهورهم على أنها القتل وهو رأي المذاهب الأربعة بل الثمانية.

وفيها وردت جملة أحاديث صحيحة عن عدد من الصحابة: عن ابن عباس وأبي موسى ومعاذ وعلي وعثمان وابن مسعود وعائشة وأنس وأبي هريرة ومعاوية بن حيدة.

وقد جاءت بصيغ مختلفة، مثل حديث ابن عباس: "من بدل دينه فاقتلوه" (رواه الجماعة إلا مسلما، ومثله عن أبي هريرة عند الطبراني بإسناد حسن، وعن معاوية بن حيدة بإسناد رجاله ثقات).

وحديث ابن مسعود "لا يحل دم امرئ مسلم يشهد أن لا إله إلا الله، وأني رسول الله، إلا بإحدى ثلاث: النفس بالنفس، والثيب الزاني، والتارك لدينه المفارق للجماعة" (رواه الجماعة).

وفي بعض صيغه عن عثمان: "... رجل كفر بعد إسلامه، أو زنى بعد إحصانه، أو قتل نفسًا بغير نفس، والثيب الزاني، والتارك لدينه المفارق للجماعة" (رواه الجماعة).

قال العلامة ابن رجب: والقتل بكل واحدة من هذه الخصال متفق عليه بين المسلمين (2).

وقد نفذ علي كرم الله وجهه عقوبة الردة في قوم ادعوا ألوهيته فحرقهم بالنار، بعد أن استتابهم وزجرهم فلم يتوبوا ولم يزدجروا، فطرحهم في النار، وهو يقول:

لما رأيت الأمر أمـرًا منكرا *** أججت ناري ودعوت قنبرا

وقنبر هو خادم الإمام علي رضي الله تعالى عنه (3).

وقد اعترض عليه ابن عباس بالحديث الآخر "لا تعذبوا بعذاب الله"، ورأى أن الواجب أن يُقتلوا لا أن يُحرقوا. فكان خلاف ابن عباس في الوسيلة لا في المبدأ.

وكذلك نفذ أبو موسى ومعاذ القتل في اليهودي في اليمن، والذي كان قد أسلم ثم ارتد. وقال معاذ: قضاء الله ورسوله (متفق عليه).

روى عبد الرازق: أن ابن مسعود أخذ أقوامًا ارتدوا عن الإسلام من أهل العراق، فكتب فيهم إلى عمر. فكتب إليه أن أعرض عليهم دين الحق، وشهادة أن لا إله إلا الله، فإن قبلوها فخل عنهم وإذا لم يقبلوها فاقتلهم، فقبلها بعضهم فتركه، ولم يقبلها بعضهم فقتله (4).

وروي عن أبي عمر الشيباني أن المستورد العجلي تنصر بعد إسلامه، فبعث به عتبة بن فرقد إلى علي فاستتابه فلم يتب، فقتله(5).

Specifically regarding the incident of Ali Ibn Abi Taleb, the group he killed were actually specifically worshipping him and did not raise a single word against Islam, and actually maintained they are muslims. This if anything refutes that apostasy law is for treason.

Anyone can get the truth for themselves and that is by going on Google and simply searching for the apostasy rule according to the four schools of juresprudence, and they will more than easily get that there is consensus amongst them. Else there is a minority of less than 10% along with western orientalists or modern philophers who do not know many of the incidents that support this and don't follow proper methodology in determination. The opinion of the schools of jurisprudence Hanbali, Hanafi, Maliki, and Shafei is what represent islam, not innovations and articles on the Internet.

I am not into senseless argument over and over. My point was already made and others too. People now have learned enough al-hamdolellah.

God grant guidance to all who seek it, and he always knows best.

[جوري]

Yes he did, some examples:
- Abdullah Ibn Khatl, apostate ran to Makka along with two slaves of his. All killed except one of his slaves, she repented to the prophet.
- Maquis Ibn Sababa, ordered to be killed and executed after Fath Makka.
- Abdullah Ibn Qais's captive in Yemen (authenticated hadith that Moath asked Abdullah why he is tied, and when Abdullah said he was an apostate, Moath said he needs to be killed as per the prophet's orders, and asked for it to be done before he gets off his camel)
- Abdullah Ibn Saad Ibn Abi Sarh (repented in a famous incident between the hands of prophet after getting safe passage through Uthman Ibn Affan against the order to kill him. And the prophet said afterwards in an authenticated hadith "Wouldn't a clever man amongst understand me and could have killed him while I was still silent (i.e. before accepting his repentance)",
- Umm Marwan, repented, an authentic hadith for the prophet that they told him about her and she was of some stature, and -pbuh- said "If Umm Marwan apostated, kill her"

Check the books of Ibn Ishaaq, Al-Bairaqtany, Ibn Hisham, Moattaa Malik and the Sahih for confirmation of the above.

Prophet Mohammed SAW didn't kill anyone save for just one man and so I again challenge you to bring me a list of names that the prophet SAW killed for whatever moot point you are asserting based on your:

The apostacy rule was dictated by more than one authenticated Hadith, practiced by the prophet.

Now, that being said, all the examples you've given above are in concert with treasonous acts given Islam as a political state and not a mere religion, in which there is no argument on whether apostasy is to be carried out or not and certainly the judgment of the Sa7aba and the prophet at the inception of Islam can't be equated to anything you are suggesting modern day.. I think it prudent first to establish the mere rudiments of such a state before fixating on the tangents of the okyaness of beating women or killing apostates .. we are discussing everyday individuals who have no political powers, policy-making interests or a Musylama sized army in an allegedly Muslim world that is largely practicing secularism.

Another look back:
"In one incident, the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam. Abdullah bin Sa'd was one of the people chosen by the Prophet as a scribe, to write down Qur'anic text as it was revealed to the Prophet. After spending some time with the Muslims in Madina, he recanted and returned to the religion of the Quraish. When he was brought before the Prophet, Osman bin Affan pleaded on his behalf, and the Prophet subsequently pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham).

"The problem with the argument for punishment for apostasy is that it cannot be applied in any Islamic state without giving rise to the potential for abuse by the state itself. Erroneously equating moral with political power in the determination of law has led to the political repression that we see in Islamic countries today. We must separate the right of God from that of man in defining freedom of religion as a legal right. The right of God refers only to the moral obligations of Muslims towards God, and is adjudicated by God. The state cannot act as a coercive moral authority, in effect representing God's Will on earth, because it does not have the right to do so. In the context of freedom of religion, the state's responsibility is to uphold and protect it as the right of all humans, as granted by God, without exercising moral judgment on the content and/or manner of exercising those religious beliefs." 4,5

"The Qur'an states:

'A section of the People of the Book say: 'Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, Bur reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back.' [3:72] "

"A section of People of the Book used a tactic to create doubt among the Muslims in the hope that some of them might thereby be beguiled into repudiating Islam. How could it be possible for non-Muslims to have enacted this plan to entice Muslims to believe one day and reject next, if death was the penalty for apostasy? ... The Qur’an does not rule to kill the apostates."

"Abdullah b.Ubayy b.Salul was the leader of the munafiqun (hypocrites). But Prophet (s) took no action against him. Prophet prayed for him and stayed at the grave until he was buried. Those fanatics among us must explain the reason for Prophet (s) not executing the known hypocrites like Abdullah b.Ubayy. Ubbay lived until death plotting to destroy Islam and Prophet knew it. He was not executed for apostasy.
"The Qur'an states:

'How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of the God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful'. [3:86-89]"

"It is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man or another for apostasy. By no stretch of the imagination can the phrase, "curse of Allah," be interpreted to be a license to murder anyone who he considers to be an apostate. If any such commandment was prescribed it would have been clearly defined as all other punishments are in the Holy Qur'an." 6

Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi,"Apostacy (Irtidad) in Islam," at: http://www.**************short/apostacy.htm

"Islam, Apostasy and PAS," 1999-JUL-22, at: http://www.muslimtents.com/sistersinislam/
S.A. Rahman, "Punishment of apostasy in Islam," Kazi Publ., (1986). Limited availabililty from Amazon.com online book store
Maher Hathout, "In Pursuit of Justice: The Jurisprudence of Human Rights in Islam." Read reviews or order this book safely from Amazon.com online book store
"Freedom of Religion," Chapter 6 from the book"In Pursuit of Justice." Online at: http://www.mpac.org/
Dr. T. O. Shanavas, "Apostacy in Islam: through the eyes of a former apostate," Toledo Muslims, at: http://www.toledomuslims.com/

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos3.htm

Don't see his post supporting your or brother alcurad's argument or necessarily negating what I wrote. He states clearly that he knows that there is consensus amongst scholars recognize the apostasy law, and that some see it attached to acts of anti-islam, while some don't. The only difference is that I brought forward clearer indication of those who don't see a distinction, and shown with evidence that they include all four imams of all schools of jurisprudence in addition to a plethora of other leading scholars in addition to the incidents showing the acts of the four Kholafa Rashidoon, which 90% or so of the muslim population are under (who are on the Sunnah). Alcurad and your argument was that there is no apostasy law because of the verse "no compulsion in religion".

Neither I, nor Br. Alcurad argued that there is no apostasy because of the the verse 'no compulsion in religion'-- I am certainly not going to speak on his behalf, but anyone can elucidate from my above statements, exactly when punishment is to be carried out and when there is pardoning, perhaps your inferences are more to do with the way you process information than what is actually written?

Apostates are those who declare it so, not those who lose faith silently. The definition of an apostate is one who declares himself no longer muslim and embracing another religion. And yes KSA carries it out, so does other Islamic countries but at low profile to keep from angering Uncle Sam, and Egypt is not listen to the Azhar council that is calling for it, but the secular government is choosing to keep the peace with the Orthodox church who continuously complains about christians converting to muslims.

apostasy is the state of having rejected your religious beliefs for your political party or a cause (often in favour of opposing beliefs or causes), in the cases where Hadd was carried out, were due to clear fitna that is created or has potential to be created, not merely someone deciding that they favored their old beliefs, and as you can see from the example above, that the Prophet pardoned Abdullah bin Sa'd, after he renounced Islam for his former beliefs-- until you can reconcile for us why he (SAW) pardoned many for exactly that which you desire to put them to death for, can we loan your opinion any credence!

You have Islamic questions to ask, ask them. Evidence to your arguments, show them. Points to discuss, stick to them. Otherwise you can simply be quiet and stay clear of trouble's path like you yourself suggested instead of rehashing with insinuating and disrespectful statements. My earlier post was a response to your own tirades, excessive bullying, abusive language, and lowly insinuations as well as straight up disrespectful rude insults. You don't have the right to disrespect anyone or use their opinion as grounds to redicule them or what they believe in, it's bad enough your redicule at that time went straight to an authentic hadith of the prophet with your punt on the miswak. By your statement "descending into word play with you" seems to be again an attempt to get a rise out of me or create grounds for more harrassment and this time I am not inclined to lose my cool, but I will tell you to your face to mind your manners and know your limits within the respectful community on the forum, neither I nor I think anyone here has interest in seeing any more antagonizing statements.

If I had Islamic questions which I do as all those not possessing of overbearing pride, I wouldn't direct them toward you, on the lowest common denominator you seem to be lacking basic knowledge of the religion and any question that is raised has more than one response which you seem inept at best in answering least of which in concert with the prophet's own actions, and secondly your mannerism and hurls of insults seem to suggest something other than what you desire to portray all whilst projecting your own fears, inadequacies unto others.

Again, I remind you, not only did you enforce an opinion on which there is no consensus but you proceeded to give a negative and then have a show down on completely unrelated topic and yet again (above).. even in spite of me having positively repped you in show of good will. Hammering in an opinion doesn't an Islamic injunction make it!
Also, I'd refrain from speaking on behalf of the whole community, did you survey the whole or does having a posse (if one in fact exists) cement your opinions into formal commands?

I am not into senseless argument over and over. My point was already made and others too. People now have learned enough al-hamdolellah.

God grant guidance to all who seek it, and he always knows best.

If you are not into senseless arguments, then stop engaging in them especially if your point has been made and Masha'Allah with such a large following-- makes us all the more grateful for your presence here!

all the best

[Sampharo]

Originally Posted by Sampharo

Yes he did, some examples:
- Abdullah Ibn Khatl, apostate ran to Makka along with two slaves of his. All killed except one of his slaves, she repented to the prophet.
- Maquis Ibn Sababa, ordered to be killed and executed after Fath Makka.
- Abdullah Ibn Qais's captive in Yemen (authenticated hadith that Moath asked Abdullah why he is tied, and when Abdullah said he was an apostate, Moath said he needs to be killed as per the prophet's orders, and asked for it to be done before he gets off his camel)
- Abdullah Ibn Saad Ibn Abi Sarh (repented in a famous incident between the hands of prophet after getting safe passage through Uthman Ibn Affan against the order to kill him. And the prophet said afterwards in an authenticated hadith "Wouldn't a clever man amongst understand me and could have killed him while I was still silent (i.e. before accepting his repentance)",
- Umm Marwan, repented, an authentic hadith for the prophet that they told him about her and she was of some stature, and -pbuh- said "If Umm Marwan apostated, kill her"

Check the books of Ibn Ishaaq, Al-Bairaqtany, Ibn Hisham, Moattaa Malik and the Sahih for confirmation of the above.

Prophet Mohammed SAW didn't kill anyone save for just one man and so I again challenge you to bring me a list of names that the prophet SAW killed

Really? :D So upon looking at a sample list of seven people who apostated, four of which were killed to the order of the prophet -pbuh-, all with the references of the history books in which they are mentioned in detail, and your response is you are challenging me to produce a list of... people that the prophet killed for apostasy?

You know what? The thread is your oyster. That just made my day and sealed the argument for me. May you enjoy your quest for "knowledge" with your "scholars" all that you want.

:) Peace be upon all who seek guidance.

[جوري]

Really? :D So upon looking at a sample list of seven people who apostated, four of which were killed to the order of the prophet -pbuh-, all with the references of the history books in which they are mentioned in detail, and your response is you are challenging me to produce a list of... people that the prophet killed for apostasy?

You know what? The thread is your oyster. That just made my day and sealed the argument for me. May you enjoy your quest for "knowledge" with your "scholars" all that you want.

:) Peace be upon all who seek guidance.

1- Giving the 'order to' differs from 'carried out' and (I refer to your quote) of course!
2- Did you bother read anything I posted at all? Can you distinguish Why such a ruling would be carried out for someone like Musylamah al'kazhab and advent to the Prophet SAW passing vs. someone like Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham)?
3- I am challenging you to produce a 'list' of the people that the prophet killed personally and not a relegation of task or motion by consenting counsel & not for mere apostasy but all!
4- Whatever makes and seals your day is of little consequence to me..
5- You are not fit to pass takfir on anyone or question their level of knowledge or quest for it given your mere approach to said topics.

I'll agree with your closing sentiment however!

:wasalamex

[Sampharo]

1- Giving the 'order to' differs from 'carried out' and (I refer to your quote) of course!
No it isn't, that's a misguiding useless argument that has no place whatsoever in apostasy law argument: suggesting that whatever sentence the prophet did not carry out by personal hand is invalid.

2- Can you distinguish Why such a ruling would be carried out for someone like Musylamah al'kazhab and advent to the Prophet SAW passing vs. someone like Abdullah bin Sa'd (Ibn Hisham)?
Yes I can, but you obviously can't, so let's not waste time with a new discussion that will serve no purpose to bring it here.

3- I am challenging you to produce a 'list' of the people that the prophet killed personally and not a relegation of task or motion by consenting counsel & not for mere apostasy but all!
As soon as you prove that the prophet personally lashed for minor adultery or held the butcher knife and cut off their legs and arms for corruption personally, and more importantly the ruling and Nass from hadith and quran that Islamic laws are either personally performed by the prophet or as per you then becomes acts of political treason or the law itself becomes invalid and as per your cherry-picked researchers the law becomes invalid altogether.
I also would love to see what applied to the list of the seven apostates I gave as "acts of treason" towards the state, especially the two slave girls of Abdullah Ibn Khatl, Umm Marwan, and the chap held by Ibn Qais all the way down in Yemen.

5- You are not fit to pass takfir on anyone.
I did not pass takfir on anyone, and readers of the forum can vouch that I am anti-takfir all over this forum. Our entire discussion is whether a muslim judge should kill a self-declared apostate or let him go for lack of such a punishment in Islam, in both cases the person has declared kufr for himself and in that there is no question. This goes to show your complete lack of logic and simple debating honesty.

6- or question their level of knowledge or quest for it given your mere approach to said topics.
Yes I can clearly determine people's level of knowledge and yes I am required to judge and assess and show muslims when someone has lack of knowledge and misrepresents minority unconfirmed views as Islamic agreed-upon confirmed rulings, and you clearly have innovation rather than knowledge. You confirmed you follow no logic, no confirmed methodology, and state myths and deny facts without a shred of evidence. You argue out of pride and arrogance, and most of all you resort to redicule, personal attacks, bullying and crabwalk onto a completely different platform of arguments when cornered in a debate, ultimately flooding the thread with repetitive posting to drown out proper answers in order to create a false illusion of legitimacy for whatever strikes your fancy.

With that said let's hold on to the one point you seem to agree on: Let's bring this to closing.

[جوري]

No it isn't, that's a misguiding useless argument that has no place whatsoever in apostasy law argument: suggesting that whatever sentence the prophet did not carry out by personal hand is invalid.

You are indeed misguiding, perhaps you should choose your wording? If you can't understand basic sentence structures (ones that you put together) and their impact then you are not fit for exegesis!

Yes I can, but you obviously can't, so let's not waste time with a new discussion that will serve no purpose to bring it here.

You keep affirming that you can and others can't with the tantrums of a two year old, but that is not a valid argument. It is mere adhoms

As soon as you prove that the prophet personally lashed for minor adultery or held the butcher knife and cut off their legs and arms for corruption personally, and more importantly the ruling and Nass from hadith and quran that Islamic laws are either personally performed by the prophet or as per you then becomes acts of political treason or the law itself becomes invalid and as per your cherry-picked researchers the law becomes invalid altogether.
I also would love to see what applied to the list of the seven apostates I gave as "acts of treason" towards the state, especially the two slave girls of Abdullah Ibn Khatl, Umm Marwan, and the chap held by Ibn Qais all the way down in Yemen.

I don't need to prove anything, answering a challenge with an asinine request doesn't a proper refutation make nor does it address the issues, or invalidate points previously made and raised!

I did not pass takfir on anyone, and readers of the forum can vouch that I am anti-takfir all over this forum. Our entire discussion is whether a muslim judge should kill a self-declared apostate or let him go for lack of such a punishment in Islam, in both cases the person has declared kufr for himself and in that there is no question. This goes to show your complete lack of logic and simple debating honesty.

Your 'discussion' only evolves when trapped for logic & reason no more no less!

Yes I can clearly determine people's level of knowledge and yes I am required to judge and assess and show muslims when someone has lack of knowledge and misrepresents minority unconfirmed views as Islamic agreed-upon confirmed rulings, and you clearly have innovation rather than knowledge. You confirmed you follow no logic, no confirmed methodology, and state myths and deny facts without a shred of evidence. You argue out of pride and arrogance, and most of all you resort to redicule, personal attacks, bullying and crabwalk onto a completely different platform of arguments when cornered in a debate, ultimately flooding the thread with repetitive posting to drown out proper answers in order to create a false illusion of legitimacy for whatever strikes your fancy.

I thought just a comment ago, you relegated such tasks to a judge? and now that judge is you?
I do hope you'll cut all the logorrhea and refute points raised.. as stated prior and again, less opinion, more facts.. I really don't think you understand what a 'debate' is..
in a nutshell it is to reply with logic/ historical facts to points raised not to commit shirk asghar with scholar worship.. even omar ibn ilkhtab was corrected by a woman, and he so professed a woman knows the Quran better than he, so how it is it that you can come in here and think you represent the whole or that you are scholarly in the most minor sense and that a mazhab better outweighs the Quran and Sunna?.. ironically you are doing the exact thing you accuse others of..
I don't think you even know what you are arguing for, so long as you are being objectionable to me as a person, is all that matters!

With that said let's hold on to the one point you seem to agree on: Let's bring this to closing.

Great, I'll inform a mod-- I have had enough pedantry for one day...

all the best

:w: