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Strangelove
04-12-2009, 12:31 PM
Hello everyone,

I am an atheist who has been reading a lot about the Abrahamic religions. Islam has interested me the most, as I have read how scientific discoveries of recent times (e.g. Big Bang) have been mentioned in the Quran thousands of years ago.

However, in my quest to understand Islam further, there is a major stumbling block I have come across. I hope fellow forumers here can help me understand:

1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?
2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)
3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?

Basically, I have a problem with a God that is all-important, egoistic and cruel.

My question is meant to be respectful. I mean no offense. I genuinely want to understand. I hope someone gives me an answer to this :)

Thank you.
Reply

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'Abd al-Baari
04-12-2009, 06:58 PM
Thread Approved.

Greetings Strangelove,

Firstly welcome to the forums, I hope you enjoy your stay here and find it beneficial. :)

I'm glad to read of your interest in Islaam, and I hope all your questions are answered here on the forum.

Peace.
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-12-2009, 07:16 PM
Hi, Greetings Love,

I hope you like your stay; in the forums, and could you please wait around 30 minutes, for my reply, as I am busy right now. I asure you it will be a good reponse.

Peace
Reply

Zafran
04-12-2009, 08:42 PM
salaam

welcome to the forum

right the old free will argument -

Yes God is all knowing
- Yes God has given you the free will to act - God has also told you what will lead you to hell and heaven - its up to you to live it - God knows who is going to heaven and hell beacsue of the actions people will take - But as you have free will its up to you to take the action as God does not force you to anything.

- God also has other attributes -

Its simple you do the work of heaven by obeying God you get Heaven.

If you do the work of hell - you get hell.

May Allah forgive me for any wrong i have said

peace
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Ali.
04-12-2009, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Strangelove
Hello everyone,
Hi! :D

I am an atheist who has been reading a lot about the Abrahamic religions. Islam has interested me the most, as I have read how scientific discoveries of recent times (e.g. Big Bang) have been mentioned in the Quran thousands of years ago.
I see. Yes, it is very intriguing!

However, in my quest to understand Islam further, there is a major stumbling block I have come across. I hope fellow forumers here can help me understand:
Hopefully...

1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?
Well, yes.

It is a difficult concept to grasp. We Muslims believe in Qadr (Arabic word for destiny). This means that we believe Allah [swt] almost in a sense has plans for us/will know what will happen to us. But we also believe we have free-will, I mean, it is undeniable, you could go and jump infront of a car right now and kill yourself (sorry for the horrorful example), that'd be of your own free will, but it is also destiny, Allah [swt] knows whether or not we will do it.
I think there are some hadeeth (sayings of the Prophet [may peace and blessings be upon him]) saying that if you make sincere du'a (supplication) to Allah [swt], your destiny can be changed? I'm not so sure of that.

و اللهُ اعلم

(Allah [swt] knows best)

2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)
I think He does. It all relates back to destiny.


و اللهُ اعلم

(Allah [swt] knows best)

3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?
Well, Allah [swt] originally created us for the following reason:

And I (Allah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship me (Alone).

[C51:V56]

And I guess if someone is really misconductive and doesn't worship the Creator, surely it's punishable?


و اللهُ اعلم

(Allah [swt] knows best)

I ask forgiveness of Allah [swt] if I have given wrong facts.. I've tried, I'm not so sure everything I gave you there was fact, to my current knowledge of Islam though, I'm quite sure! :)

Maybe some other member can come along and correct any mistakes I made. :statisfie

My question is meant to be respectful. I mean no offense. I genuinely want to understand. I hope someone gives me an answer to this

Thank you.
No offense taken.. don't hesitate to ask any further questions! :)
Reply

Strangelove
04-13-2009, 03:34 AM
Dear all,

Thank you for your responses.

However, my question is still un-answered - do forgive me if I am being dumb hehe...

If God knows for certain if Person A is going to Hell, why would he create Person A? Does God enjoy watching his creations burn in Hell? I assume not, as God (Allah) is defined in Islam as merciful, and of course, benevolent.

And if God knows what course of action a person will take, does Free Will really exist? Seems like to me that Person A's destiny is written for him.
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-13-2009, 11:26 AM
Greetings finally got the time to post my response.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
Hello everyone,
I am an atheist who has been reading a lot about the Abrahamic religions. Islam has interested me the most, as I have read how scientific discoveries of recent times (e.g. Big Bang) have been mentioned in the Quran thousands of years ago.
Mashallah, it’s good to see people take interest and make a decision knowingly, as the ignorant of people are those who reject something they know nothing about. I do think you should see this “important read” by brother SixTen, on the miracles; this is not to put you off Islam.

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...tant-read.html

Originally Posted by Strangelove
However, in my quest to understand Islam further, there is a major stumbling block I have come across. I hope fellow forumers here can help me understand:
Indeed I will try my best

Originally Posted by Strangelove
1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?
Short answer: yes, long answer yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees; only joking. A God that punishes and rewards his own creation without giving them freedom of choice, makes about as much sense as a computer programmer who writes software that doesn't work. In Islam there is pre-destination and free will, in a sense that Allah gives us options. To do as we like, but what he wills, becuase at the end of the day every action, every being has to take the permission of Allahs will, before that action coming into existance.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)
Yes, Allah is all-knowing, and does know that some of his creation will enter hell. But how does that contradict Islam, or an argument against it? I mean if Allah created us and decided to bring everyone to heaven, then were is the test of life? Obviously some people are going to fail the test. I mean in the Quran there are some verses which speak about hell, and hadeeth; which included knowldege of the future. So yes Allah is all-knowing.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?
No you see, were did you get the idea that hell is eternal? Because it isn’t. If you are a Muslim, let’s say who has done more bad than good well by Allah’s will you will enter hell, but you will ultimately come to heaven as you were a believer. Now for the non-believer I don’t know the case, but I do know that hell isn’t eternal. The word used to describe the time length means “long-time” not eternal.

I mean one thing about athiests, is that they are in a sense choosing to enter hell, with disbelif, so they cant complain about, "oh why are people suffering eternal hell" I mean you are choosing that path, and your complaing? Not to sound rude. It is a common argument against religion by athiests. In which I think they need to see my side of the story.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
Basically, I have a problem with a God that is all-important, egoistic and cruel.
How, I mean how did you come to the conclusion that God is cruel, and presumable evil?
I think it will be good if you read this... http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/brainwashing.htm read it thoroughly, as it has common arguments against Islam and religion; on arguments like yours “evil, free-will, and so forth”

Originally Posted by Strangelove
My question is meant to be respectful. I mean no offense. I genuinely want to understand. I hope someone gives me an answer to this :)
Again its good to see that someone has taken interest, I would like to say my points might not attract you as I have not quoted anything, but I am sure someone out there will.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
Thank you.
Peace be with you, Sorry if I disrespectfull in anyway, and Allah (God) knows best.
Reply

- Qatada -
04-13-2009, 03:46 PM
Here's a link which might explain the issue more;

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/40/



Since humans are unaware of their final destination, they are told to believe and follow the guidance in order to be successful in this life and the one to come. This will be a provide for them protection from the hellfire.


So the issue is related to a human choosing between wrong or right, and choosing goodness over evil. If he does this, then that is good and will be a source of reward for him/her, but if he chooses evil over good - then that is harmful for him/her.


Since God is Just, He will reward or punish based on people doing good or evil. And He is Merciful in the fact that He gives to those who continue to do evil in this life, and that He will reward those who believe and do good with an eternal reward in the hereafter in Paradise.



Peace.
Reply

//-Asif-\\
04-13-2009, 06:40 PM
If God knows for certain if Person A is going to Hell, why would he create Person A? Does God enjoy watching his creations burn in Hell? I assume not, as God (Allah) is defined in Islam as merciful, and of course, benevolent.
Well the way you have to look at the world and the purpose of life is basically as a test/experiment. The way I can put it so it can be somewhat helpful for you to understand is that lets look at God like he is a scientist who has created a specimen (human beings) and He also created the habitat where this species would reside and observe how they will live (the Earth).

God is already is aware of certain reactions humans would take,the feelings they inhibit and express and all the like, top to bottom, He knows
what they would do in certain situations yet he has an ideal way of how a human should conduct and behave.He is testing his creation to see if they fit the criteria of an ideal human being or whether they break from that mold and fail to live up to standards he's set. Though he knows the in and outs of the creation, and knows what we will do before we do it he still ALLOWS it to happen for the sake of the experiment.

Humans have free will to do wrong or right according to what God has laid out for us to do. He is all-knowing, hearing and whatnot but instead of punishing the disobedient and awarding the obedient He is waiting for the experiment to end (the end of the world/day of judgment) to gather his data and give the results.

For the sake of experiment, God can place a human being in a enviorment or situation that can change the person's views or conduct or way of thinking to see if that person can return back to follow his criteria. Person A that God created isn't destined for hell but perhaps is put in a situation that is not good for him/her which would make it difficult for them to attain heaven (crime ridden slums/ghettos, growing up in a dysfunctional, non-religious family, being given massive wealth and having a materialistic lifestyle etc.)
what Person A has to do is overcome this situation and still perservere or take action to try and do the right things. No one is destined for hell/heaven but can eventually become destined for it by their actions and the like.

Person A is living a foul lifestyle and has so for years and years and years with no attempt at changing himself or righting his wrongs. This person may be destined for hell IF he continues to take no action and put no effort or recognize what path he's taking in life then dies. He had 50,60,70 years to live on this earth and actually do something with the time he was given to try to attain heaven but instead did nothing and persued other interests. God is benevolent and merciful but it's the job of every human, who have their own free will, to take action and make their own destiny which can result in eternal punishment in Hell or eternal bliss in Heaven.

I hope this helped.
Reply

Pomak
04-13-2009, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Strangelove
Hello everyone,

I am an atheist who has been reading a lot about the Abrahamic religions. Islam has interested me the most, as I have read how scientific discoveries of recent times (e.g. Big Bang) have been mentioned in the Quran thousands of years ago.

However, in my quest to understand Islam further, there is a major stumbling block I have come across. I hope fellow forumers here can help me understand:

1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?
2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)
3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?

Basically, I have a problem with a God that is all-important, egoistic and cruel.

My question is meant to be respectful. I mean no offense. I genuinely want to understand. I hope someone gives me an answer to this :)

Thank you.
1. Yes it does
2. All knowing is one of his names, so yes he knows. And he even says so(that he will go into hell) in the example of the pharaoh
3. He is also the Just.

Expanding on 3, the reason comes from 2 main categories.
a. Free will, in some Islamic literature its called "god's trust". And is something rather heavy. Put in simple words, if we use free will to spread mischief in the world and oppress without repentance of any sort then we are going to get our "just reward".
b. we don't know who will go where, the concept of salvation in Islam is quite different than in Christianity

IA my ramblings at 6 am were helpful.

PS. "
I think there are some hadeeth (sayings of the Prophet [may peace and blessings be upon him]) saying that if you make sincere du'a (supplication) to Allah [swt], your destiny can be changed? I'm not so sure of that."

I was under the impression that it was a contentious subject...
Reply

adigagirl
04-13-2009, 11:08 PM
greetings!!!:)
i asked the same questions my self and i'm satisfied today, so i will try to answer you the best i can . inshallah you will be satisfied too :)

before i answer you're questions, you must know some things:

1. there's a reason for everything.
2. some of the things are only known by Allah and we don't....
that might immediately lead you to refuse to the idea of God, probably telling yourself that we say that for everything we can't explain.
and i could expend on that but...lets just say that it's really not like that. :)


here i go.


1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?

when i asked my question, it was something like this : if Allah knows that we are going to hell or heaven, why didn't he send us immediately??
why let us live it?

and this is the answer i recieved:

first , promo :P
we believe that there are two angels sitting on our shoulders writing every single good deed and sins we do.

so i was replyed by a question first. i was asked: if Allah is All-Knowing, why does he need two angels to write down what you're doing???
i didn't have an answer then !! :P
and then he said, this is so you won't come back at the judgement day and say you didn't do so and so. so you will live life fully, with your own free will and live the evidence and see the reason for the outcomes of your action.

so for your answer, yes! you do have free will. and yes! Allah do know what you will do. it doesn't necessarily contradict each other:)

i hope you're satisfied with this one and that I explained myself well! English isn't my main language;)


2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)

We just said he does:)

3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?

firstly, Allah's compassion is described in the following way :
There were 100% compassion and he sent 1% to the world. And that 1% compassion was divided between all the people and the animals. so if it was you, would you want your parents to judge you? i mean they would probably send you to heaven!! Think that your parents compassion to you is only the part of the 1%….While Allah is with 99% ! So no, you would want Allah to judge you. Since he is the most compassionate.

Following that, I cannot answer about his willing or not for people to suffer. That is for Allah, cause he knows best. What I can tell you is about the necessity of constant fear, along the peace you feel as a muslim. Fear , at least personally, prevented me from doing soooooooo many bad things. If there was only heaven, no one would Really try to be the best man he can be. After all that's what islam is about, being a good person. Praying 5 times a day is reminding us that we have responsibility. All you are asked to do, is to not deny him. We are lots of times being told in islam to study, to use our brains. "Allah will give the path to paradise to the one who choses the road to study" that's how important it is, he's telling you, do you need anymore signs than what you already have??? Just the existence of your eye itself is Amazing! You really think it was made by evolution? And if that eye doesn't satisfy you, there are billion things in the whole world that can prove it to you. That chances for that to become from nothing are just ZERO.

hmm Oops did I get cared away :) when I start talking about islam I don't stop. ^_^

I know that it will still not fully satisfy you. But after you'll examine islam, you will not be able to shake off it's divinity. And if Allah wills, you will start to have faith.
Allahuma yahdi man yshaa.
Reply

alcurad
04-13-2009, 11:31 PM
because that person wants to go to hell by not following and so on.
free will exists to an extent, a person's destiny is known by the creator, but not predetermined. rather Allah knows it since he knows 'everything' anyway.
Reply

burdenofbeing
04-14-2009, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by Strangelove
Dear all,

Thank you for your responses.

However, my question is still un-answered - do forgive me if I am being dumb hehe...
I think I understand your questions. I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities. It'll be a long one, I'm sincerely trying to help. I also am a person with my own demons.


If God knows for certain if Person A is going to Hell, why would he create Person A? Does God enjoy watching his creations burn in Hell? I assume not, as God (Allah) is defined in Islam as merciful, and of course, benevolent.
Some more questions in similar vein:

Why doesn't god put everyone directly into heaven without sending them to earth?

If God knows for certain Person B is going to Heaven, why would he create Person B? I assume not, as God is also defined in Islam as Al Qahhar - The All Compelling Subduer, Al-Mumeet - The Destroyer, Ad-Darr - The Harmer etc..

Why does God create people? Period.

The last one is the most important one in my opinion. As God doesn't need creatures, the reason why he wanted to create is not simple to answer. In my opinion the best answer comes from a hadith qudsi:
"I was a hidden treasure. I wanted to be known and created the creation"
We are in fact sentient creature v 3.0, and sentient with free will v 2.0 according to islam.

After being created, god has given us options. For he is benevolent. He gave us the possibility of becoming greater, and told us the ways to do it.

You may think of hell in a way you are used to think, cause and effect. Why are there harmful things in this world? Why do I get burned when I put my hand in the fire? Because of my ignorance! Because of my actions. I don't ask if god enjoys me burning my hand in this world, hell may not be too different.

Finally, god is exempt from being good or bad, he is literally above our values, so reflecting our values to god is not logical. They don't apply to him. The value of morality for god is:= n/a

And if God knows what course of action a person will take, does Free Will really exist? Seems like to me that Person A's destiny is written for him.
Again the problem is in our plane of existance, and how it's different than god's. Imagine you have a simulation game. You also have a timeline in this game. You can move it forward, backward, pause. The simulated creatures have a form of free will, and they practice so. At any time, you could move forward in time and know what he would be doing. Knowing what he does eventually, and the creature having free will is not contradictory.

This also explains the question of time, which many thinking people come up with. How can something exist before infinity of time? Again by this simulation example, setting the simulated reality's 'beginning_of_time' value to infinity would make the reality in that world to be starting in infinite, even though the simulation had an exact starting point in god's dimension of reality.

I hope I didn't overkill, and were able to explain to some extent.
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-14-2009, 10:28 AM
:sl:

Mashallah, looking at the response's it seems that strangelove should be able to achieve her goal in which is satisfaction with Islam, but what I think is important is the fact that we got so much answers from Muslims brothers and sisters, so we need to maintain a consistency throughout the answers, we cant for example one of us say "no we dont have free-will", and another person says "yes we do have free-will", so please brothers sisters. I am not saying there is inconsistencys but we need to bear that in mind.

Peace be with you all.
:w:
Reply

ATHEISTofPEACE
04-15-2009, 02:27 AM
1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?
Yes it does.
2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)
Yes he does know. He still puts us on the earth so that we know he was just when we go to hell.

3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?
I still can't understand this one.
Reply

ATHEISTofPEACE
04-15-2009, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by alcurad
because that person wants to go to hell by not following and so on.
free will exists to an extent, a person's destiny is known by the creator, but not predetermined. rather Allah knows it since he knows 'everything' anyway.
I understand how you are saying there is a difference but if Allah knows I am going to hell then I have no choice in the matter even if he did not choose to send me there. Also in order to properly use free will you must give it up and become Allah's slave.
Reply

coddles76
04-15-2009, 03:10 AM
Hi Strangelove, May you find your stay here a good one and gain as muh benefit from this site as you require.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?
Yes, Freedom of will does exsist in Islam and Allah SWT has given us the freedom of choosing our own destiny while also utilising our faculty of reasoning and understanding. The best choice a muslim or any human can make is to follow the will of Allah SWT, as that will lead you to eternal success.

2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)
Allah SWT explains this to us:-

Quran 11:7 "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the Waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct."

Quran 18:7 "That which is on earth We have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them, as to which of them are best in conduct"


3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?
Allah SWT does not want anyone to suffer a terrible outcome but due to his creation of the freedom of will it is OUR actions that define our fate. No blame is given to the creator because he has given us enough evidence, enough tools, enough warnings, enough guidance and enough knowledge for us to succeed in this life and the hereafter. Its up to us to choose which path we want and we must put that effort in to achieve that goal.

I hope that helps.
And Allah SWT knows best.
Reply

Strangelove
04-17-2009, 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
In my opinion the best answer comes from a hadith qudsi:
"I was a hidden treasure. I wanted to be known and created the creation"
We are in fact sentient creature v 3.0, and sentient with free will v 2.0 according to islam.
This sounds a little arrogant to me. If God (Allah) is perfect, surely he does not need to create lesser beings, i.e. people, to prove that he exists, and to be worshipped and thus feel mighty.

Originally Posted by adigagirl
greetings!!!:)
and then he said, this is <b>so you won't come back at the judgement day and say you didn't do so and so. so you will live life fully, with your own free will and live the evidence and see the reason for the outcomes of your action</b>.
Again, it seems like God (Allah) needs to prove himself and his creations, of his greatness. Surely, a perfect God wouldn't need to satisfy his ego - or even have an ego in the first place?

When I asked a Muslim friend why God needed to create people to put them in Heaven and Hell, her answer was that it is in his being to "Create" and therefore he needs to manifest that in "Creation". Again, this is an unsatisfactory answer for me, which only points to the ego of God.

Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I understand how you are saying there is a difference but if Allah knows I am going to hell then I have no choice in the matter even if he did not choose to send me there. Also in order to properly use free will you must give it up and become Allah's slave.
This is exactly where I stumble to understand.

I have also read that in Hell, according to the Quran (please correct me if I am wrong), the majority of people in Hell will be the rich. I assume that most of the rich are well-educated. So, is it fair that someone is well-educated and able to think logically rejects God and thus goes to Hell - versus an uneducated man who never learnt to question what he is taught about God? I find that the circumstance you are born in makes it unfair that that should decide your fate in Heaven or Hell. Besides, can God (Allah) seriously put, say, an African who lives in the middle of a desert who has never heard of Islam in to Hell? What about someone like Mother Teresa? Does she go into the "best" level of Hell, just because she didn't submit to the ego of Allah by accepting him, though she has done SO MUCH good in the world, compared to some Muslims?

I must say though, thank you for everyone's temperate and kind replies. I am glad to be able have a civilized discussion here. Most of the time, atheists are just blasted off for being 'ignorant' and a 'waste of time' in most religion forums.

I must say that I am not ANTI any religion, I just fail to understand many of their doctrines. The only religion I have ever managed to come across that made most sense to me has been Islam, but still, this big huge stumbling block remains.
Reply

Pomak
04-21-2009, 02:14 PM

I have also read that in Hell, according to the Quran (please correct me if I am wrong), the majority of people in Hell will be the rich. I assume that most of the rich are well-educated. So, is it fair that someone is well-educated and able to think logically rejects God and thus goes to Hell - versus an uneducated man who never learnt to question what he is taught about God? I find that the circumstance you are born in makes it unfair that that should decide your fate in Heaven or Hell. Besides, can God (Allah) seriously put, say, an African who lives in the middle of a desert who has never heard of Islam in to Hell? What about someone like Mother Teresa? Does she go into the "best" level of Hell, just because she didn't submit to the ego of Allah by accepting him, though she has done SO MUCH good in the world, compared to some Muslims?

I must say though, thank you for everyone's temperate and kind replies. I am glad to be able have a civilized discussion here. Most of the time, atheists are just blasted off for being 'ignorant' and a 'waste of time' in most religion forums.

I must say that I am not ANTI any religion, I just fail to understand many of their doctrines. The only religion I have ever managed to come across that made most sense to me has been Islam, but still, this big huge stumbling block remains.
1. lets put iman aside for a second and think "logically" on why a rich person might be more inclined to go to hell rather than a poor person.

2. In most religions piety isn't linked to being filthy rich.

3. "who never learnt to question"...wtf want me to go through with you the number of people who go through uni, who have the capacity for critical analysis of a squirrel. I would contend that people who are sheltered usually don't have critical thinking.

4. "I find that the circumstance you are born in makes it unfair that that should decide your fate in Heaven or Hell. Besides, can God (Allah) seriously put, say, an African who lives in the middle of a desert who has never heard of Islam in to Hell? What about someone like Mother Teresa? Does she go into the "best" level of Hell, just because she didn't submit to the ego of Allah by accepting him, though she has done SO MUCH good in the world, compared to some Muslims?"

Firstly stop with the slander.
Secondly look up the conditions of entry into hell, and you'll find that the main content of your post is demolished. (But since I know how lazy people are these days i'll tell ya.)

I. God judges on actions and or inaction.
II. prerequisite for going to hell is being a kaffir that is someone who knows and rejects. (thats the difference between kaffir and infidel)
III. No one(except god) knows who will go to hell. (with a few exceptions)
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burdenofbeing
04-22-2009, 05:42 AM
^ So you believe that a perfect being is perfectly content and doesn't do anything because it doesn't need anything? I'm guessing it'd be useful for you to think about your concept of a perfect god (or rather being) and write it here.
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- Qatada -
04-22-2009, 12:40 PM
Hey.

1)Some Messengers and Prophets of God, and even righteous followers were kings but they were just, so they will be in the high parts of paradise. Wealth is a blessing from Allah which can be used to get closer to Allah, or it can be abused and wasted in sin which can lead to punishment.

2) Allah chose to create humans because He can do whatever He wills, and why not?

3) Allah never punishes a people until He sends a Messenger with undeniable evidences. If the people follow, and obey - He gives them more good. If they reject, then they are liable for punishment because they are saying God and His messenger has lied and are showing ingratitude to God.
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IHaveADream
05-02-2009, 09:56 PM
Just wanted to input something concerning the "Big Bang" in the Qu'ran. The verses in this book contain no actual specific details, and only the the earth and heaven was join, and then that God separated the two. While in fact, if you are to accept the Big Bang Theory, you would know that the earth was formed about 9 billion years after the Big Bang.
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Muhammad
05-03-2009, 08:24 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
In my opinion the best answer comes from a hadith qudsi:
"I was a hidden treasure. I wanted to be known and created the creation"
We are in fact sentient creature v 3.0, and sentient with free will v 2.0 according to islam.
When quoting hadeeth, it is important to reference them to avoid using weak hadeeth. Is there any reference for the above?
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Yanal
05-03-2009, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by IHaveADream
Just wanted to input something concerning the "Big Bang" in the Qu'ran. The verses in this book contain no actual specific details, and only the the earth and heaven was join, and then that God separated the two. While in fact, if you are to accept the Big Bang Theory, you would know that the earth was formed about 9 billion years after the Big Bang.
:sl:
Can you expand on your theory?
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Forced_In
05-04-2009, 10:13 AM
Hi,

Originally Posted by Strangelove
This sounds a little arrogant to me. If God (Allah) is perfect, surely he does not need to create lesser beings, i.e. people, to prove that he exists, and to be worshipped and thus feel mighty.



Again, it seems like God (Allah) needs to prove himself and his creations, of his greatness. Surely, a perfect God wouldn't need to satisfy his ego - or even have an ego in the first place?

When I asked a Muslim friend why God needed to create people to put them in Heaven and Hell, her answer was that it is in his being to "Create" and therefore he needs to manifest that in "Creation". Again, this is an unsatisfactory answer for me, which only points to the ego of God.



This is exactly where I stumble to understand.
My interpretation regarding this hadith is as follows:
The creation, mainly is because there exist the potential for
such beings. Their best ones are those who can improve, to an extend that
they can surpass the fully obedient creatures with no will (angels ).

Originally Posted by Strangelove
I have also read that in Hell, according to the Quran (please correct me if I am wrong), the majority of people in Hell will be the rich. I assume that most of the rich are well-educated. So, is it fair that someone is well-educated and able to think logically rejects God and thus goes to Hell - versus an uneducated man who never learnt to question what he is taught about God? I find that the circumstance you are born in makes it unfair that that should decide your fate in Heaven or Hell. Besides, can God (Allah) seriously put, say, an African who lives in the middle of a desert who has never heard of Islam in to Hell? What about someone like Mother Teresa? Does she go into the "best" level of Hell, just because she didn't submit to the ego of Allah by accepting him, though she has done SO MUCH good in the world, compared to some Muslims?
This again is not an easy thing to comprehend. For example, riches people
proportion in hell could be more than the poor, not that all rich went to hell.
Another understanding could be a literal one. That the rich is referred to
those who consider themselves self sufficient.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
I must say though, thank you for everyone's temperate and kind replies. I am glad to be able have a civilized discussion here. Most of the time, atheists are just blasted off for being 'ignorant' and a 'waste of time' in most religion forums.
Please speak your heart.

Originally Posted by Strangelove
I must say that I am not ANTI any religion, I just fail to understand many of their doctrines. The only religion I have ever managed to come across that made most sense to me has been Islam, but still, this big huge stumbling block remains.
May Allah guide us all, inshallah.
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IHaveADream
05-05-2009, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Alpha Jr
:sl:
Can you expand on your theory?
??? On the big bang theory?
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MacSurfer
05-23-2009, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Strangelove
Hello everyone,

I am an atheist who has been reading a lot about the Abrahamic religions. Islam has interested me the most, as I have read how scientific discoveries of recent times (e.g. Big Bang) have been mentioned in the Quran thousands of years ago.

However, in my quest to understand Islam further, there is a major stumbling block I have come across. I hope fellow forumers here can help me understand:

1. Does individual freedom of will exist, according to Islam?
2. If God (Allah) is all-knowing, would he not be aware that some of his creations would enter Hell in the afterlife? (If he does not know, he cannot be all-knowing)
3. If God (Allah) is all-compassionate, would he not want to not create these certain individuals as he would not want anyone to suffer a terrible eternity in Hell?

Basically, I have a problem with a God that is all-important, egoistic and cruel.

My question is meant to be respectful. I mean no offense. I genuinely want to understand. I hope someone gives me an answer to this :)

Thank you.
Salaam to all brothers and sisters,

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“The fact that all things are already decreed and pre-determined by Allah does not take away from men and women their freedom to choose, for that itself is part of the divine will.

No one can use the excuse of pre-determination for acting irresponsibly. Everyone knows quite well that he has a choice to do certain things, while he has no choice to do certain other things. No one therefore should use the excuse of divine will to justify some evil deed he has committed, for deep inside of him, he knew he had a choice to do it or not to do it.

Allah will punish us only if we have been given the choice. The Qur’an clearly teaches us that we humans are accountable only for such actions that we have control over, and that we would certainly not be accountable for those over which we did not have any control whatsoever.”

Elaborating more on the question of man’s free will, Sheikh Kutty adds:

“It is important that we form a sound notion about this issue, in order to avoid any confusion or misgivings.

The issue you have raised is commonly known as the doctrine of qadaa’ (Divine Decree) and qadar (pre-determination). This issue in so far as it is related to man’s freedom to choose has been a perennial issue that has been contentious in all world religions. The Qur’an provides us the foundations for a balanced approach to this issue. It balances our belief in the divine pre-determination with man’s will and freedom to choose and create his own destiny.

Essentially, the Qur’anic position states that while Allah has decreed all things, and that His Decree is at once all-wise and impeccable, human beings have been granted freedom to choose. The freedom granted to humans, however, does not contradict Allah’s Will or Decree, as it itself is a part of Allah’s Will, since man would not have been able to choose if not for Allah’s Will.

Islam teaches us that Allah is the Creator and Sustainer of this enormous universe and everything it contains in its infinite diversity and multiplicity. He is the Lord of them all, All-Wise, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and All-Aware. Allah has decreed all things in due proportion, balance and harmony. Allah’s creation is immaculately perfect, and there is no discrepancy or disharmony existing in the universe. Almighty Allah says: “(Blessed is He) Who has created seven heavens in tiers. You cannot see any disharmony in the All-Merciful’s creation; look again. Can you see any rift? Then look again, and yet again, your sight will return to you, vanquished and weak.” (Al-Mulk: 3-4)

Stated differently, the Divine Decree or pre-determination is part of the all-embracing knowledge, wisdom, and power of Allah as the Creator. It means that Allah’s Will is supreme, and that Allah is fully in charge of His creation. It teaches us that there is essentially one supreme Will operative in the universe, namely the supreme Will of Allah.

This is on the one hand. On the other hand, we are also taught that Allah, in accordance with His supreme Will, has appointed man as His vicegerent on earth. In His wisdom, Allah has bestowed on man intelligence, moral conscience and revelation. Allah has bestowed on him these resources in order for him to exercise freely between what is good and bad. Man is rewarded or punished based on such choices he has made.

Thus, the fact that Allah’s Decree is supreme does not contradict the fact that man has been given choice and freedom. But human freedom is not unlimited; it works within the all pervasive Will of Allah. Man’s choice is granted to him by Allah; man cannot choose without Allah’s Will; in so far he exercises his will, he does so by Allah’s Will. “But you cannot will unless Allah wills; Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.” (Al-Insan: 30).

Let us list a few Qur’anic verses to further illuminate this concept:

“Say: ‘Truth is from your Lord’. Now whosoever will, may believe, and whosoever will, may disbelieve.” (Al-Kahf: 29). “If it had been your Lord’s will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?” (Yunus: 99).

The above verses clearly establish the fact that human beings have the freedom to choose. So the belief in pre-determination is not opposed to man’s freedom to choose or act in the universe.

It was because of the balanced understanding concerning Divine Will and human choice that the early Muslims were the most active and dynamic in their approach to taking action to improve themselves and the society around them. Their belief in qadaa’ and qadar, instead of making them passive and complacent, acted as a powerful impetus for change. They believed that nothing in the universe could stop them if they believed in Allah and their own power to realize what is beneficial. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: ‘Always entertain positive and beneficial thoughts, and seek the help of Allah in accomplishing your tasks, and never feel helpless or impotent. If, in spite of your best efforts, something does not work out the way you had planned, then simply say: that was Allah’s Will; He does what He wills. But never say to yourself: I wish I had done this or that; if it had been so, it would have been different. For such thoughts (are not constructive at all and) only open the door for Satan to act!’”

Ref: www.islamonline.net
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