Convert vs Revert

[convert]

What do you prefer to be called? Why?

I will give my thoughts, with daleel, later on after there gets to be a healthy discussion going.

[Woodrow]

:sl:

I am a revert, I did not convert from anything. I was born Muslim but life lead me on a path that did not follow Islam. After 65 years of traveling down this path called life, I realized I was Muslim. I said the shahadah and returned to where I belonged. I was the long lost orphan who was finally reunited with my family.

It was a long twisted path, but it eventually lead me back to who I always was, but did not know.

Therefore I am a revert, I did not leave anything, it just took me a long time to learn I was Muslim.

[Al-Zaara]

I made a post once in my and The Ruler's blog, and there I first time heard of someone preferably being called 'convert'. Here's the comment:

*Converts. I’m Muslim but I don’t believe that everyone is born Muslim. They’re born in fitrah, that is a natural inclination towards the truth. The truth being Islam, obviously. Differences in opinion I guess. Allahu ‘alim.

I told myself to try to read some more about it, but still haven't gotten to it. InshaAllah, I'm waiting for your post. :)

[Al-Hanbali]

^ yh it goes back to what the 'fitrah' is. Being upon the 'fitrah', does that you're already Muslim? etc

"So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know." [Soorah Room, V.30]

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[Ali.]

Editted.

[Uthman]

:sl: Ali,

To be honest I've always thought of the 'revert to Islam' business a strange one..

Let's take it in steps..

How are people born Muslim?

Muslim means submissive to the creator.. muselim.. I don't know the roots of this word fully.. so I'm not so sure if everything is born submissive to the creator.. surely they'd have to firstly find out if they believe in God and then see if they submiss/submit?

Take a look at these two links Inshaa'Allah:

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledg...tionFitrah.htm
http://islamworld.net/docs/fitrah.html

Islam comes from the word salam.. which means peace.. I believe it also has some accordance with submission..

This is a common misconception. Salaam is not the root word of Islam. Rather, both words (Islam and Salaam) share a common root which is the triliteral root S-L-M (or Seen Laam Meem)

:w:

[Ali.]

:sl: Ali, Take a look at these two links Inshaa'Allah:

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledg...tionFitrah.htm
http://islamworld.net/docs/fitrah.html

This is a common misconception. Salaam is not the root word of Islam. Rather, both words (Islam and Salaam) share a common root which is the triliteral root S-L-M (or Seen Laam Meem)

:w:

Oh.. :embarrass

Thanks for that, Osman, I never knew..

[Intisar]

:w: Well didn't rasoolullah salAllaahu 'alayhi wasalam say, ''everyone is a born a Muslim, but they only change due to their parent's religion (ie. Hinduism, Christianity, Buudhism etc.)''? May Allaah forgive me if I am even slightly wrong.

Everyone is born upon the fitrah of Islaam, but your first years of life are inevitably influenced by your parents. So you end up following what they do, until you find Islaam again and come back, ''revert''.

Converting implies that you were never a Muslim to begin with, which is wrong, because we believe in fitrah.

[Ali.]

^ Take a look at my second post, please.

I think I'll edit my first post to avoid any more confusion like this..

[czgibson]

Greetings,

:w: Well didn't rasoolullah salAllaahu 'alayhi wasalam say, ''everyone is a born a Muslim, but they only change due to their parent's religion (ie. Hinduism, Christianity, Buudhism etc.)''? May Allaah forgive me if I am even slightly wrong.

My parents are Christians, but I've never considered myself a Christian.

It's pretty strange to be told that I was born a Muslim, because I've never considered myself a Muslim either.

I believe that everyone is born with some sort of conscience, but that they are completely unaware of religion until someone mentions it to them in their life.

Peace

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

I am an atheist but assuming Islam is right and Adam was created by Allah and was the first man and phrophet then rever is the truth. Other wise cover. =D
Peace
Mick

[Dawud_uk]

Greetings,


My parents are Christians, but I've never considered myself a Christian.

It's pretty strange to be told that I was born a Muslim, because I've never considered myself a Muslim either.

I believe that everyone is born with some sort of conscience, but that they are completely unaware of religion until someone mentions it to them in their life.

Peace

we believe everyone is born in submission to the creator, i.e muslim. islam means submission, a muslim is the one who submits. you probably notice the simularity between the letters islam and muslim. another example, jihad is to struggle in the path of Allah against the evils and wrongs in the world, and the mujahid is the one on that path.

so every child is born in this natural state of submission, submitting to the creator and with an inbuilt natural reverence instinct to worship their creator.

however later on they are diverted away from this natural instinct or it is perverted into the worship of something else, but always there is a part of them which recognises islam as pure and simple, the truth about the creator which makes them want to return, to revert back to this natural state of submission - islam.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

we believe everyone is born in submission to the creator, i.e muslim. islam means submission, a muslim is the one who submits. you probably notice the simularity between the letters islam and muslim. another example, jihad is to struggle in the path of Allah against the evils and wrongs in the world, and the mujahid is the one on that path.

so every child is born in this natural state of submission, submitting to the creator and with an inbuilt natural reverence instinct to worship their creator.

however later on they are diverted away from this natural instinct or it is perverted into the worship of something else, but always there is a part of them which recognises islam as pure and simple, the truth about the creator which makes them want to return, to revert back to this natural state of submission - islam.

Can you show me that newborns are born submiting to Allah? please. Newborns have no concept of Allah/God ergo they are atheist. atheist does not beilive. A new born does not understand thw concept of Islam and Allah there for is an atheist.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

so every child is born in this natural state of submission, submitting to the creator and with an inbuilt natural reverence instinct to worship their creator.

however later on they are diverted away from this natural instinct or it is perverted into the worship of something else, but always there is a part of them which recognises islam as pure and simple, the truth about the creator which makes them want to return, to revert back to this natural state of submission - islam.

This is all just speculation with no necessary connection to the real world.

The explanations of words you posted are quite well known, I think.

Peace

[Uthman]

Greetings,

I realise that your post wasn't directed at me but since Dawud_UK hasn't responded yet, I thought I would. :)

Can you show me that newborns are born submiting to Allah? please.

If you are asking for scientific evidence/proof then I am not personally aware of any.

Newborns have no concept of Allah/God

How do you know this?

A new born does not understand thw concept of Islam and Allah

How do you know?

Realise that when we refer to Islam in this context, we are referring to it's fundamental principles i.e. Tawheed rather than the full religion of Islam in all it's complexity.

Regards

[czgibson]

Greetings,

if you want to find out what understanding of god newborns might have, try asking several young children what they think about god. You'll get many different answers, and I guarantee that many of them will not be in line with the teachings of Islam.

Peace

[Uthman]

Hi czgibson,

if you want to find out what understanding of god newborns might have, try asking several young children what they think about god. You'll get many different answers, and I guarantee that many of them will not be in line with the teachings of Islam.

Young children are not newborns though, are they. By the time they reach an age where you are able to sustain a meaningful conversation with them, there will have been plenty of time for their Fitrah to have been corrupted by parents and/or society.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you say that you would get many different answers and how are you able to make such a confident guarantee? Have you tried this yourself or something? :)

Regards

[convert]

I am a convert. I think a lot of have a misconception of the word fitrah:

An explanation of the misconception of the fitrah by Riyadh ul-Haq

I will have to check again but I heard lecture by either Suhaib Webb or Ali at-Tamini where they mention that those in the first generations who left Islam were said to have reverted to kufr.

Also, I find the term revert is a very conceited, presumptuous term. It can give many converts complexes and make them think they are not good enough unless they change their name to Muhammad, wear thobe and imamah to work, and run off to the Arabian peninsula. It can also lead to an attitude where they cut off and alienate themselves from their families.

So, in short: I'm a convert.

[Uthman]

I am a convert. I think a lot of have a misconception of the word fitrah:

An explanation of the misconception of the fitrah by Riyadh ul-Haq

I will be sure to check this out.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Hi czgibson, Young children are not newborns though, are they. By the time they reach an age where you are able to sustain a meaningful conversation with them, there will have been plenty of time for their Fitrah to have been corrupted by parents and/or society.

Young children are obviously not newborns, but they are as close as we can get. Interviewing a newborn baby is rarely successful and can often end messily...

Just out of curiosity, what makes you say that you would get many different answers and how are you able to make such a confident guarantee? Have you tried this yourself or something? :)

Yes. I teach young children every day and I've had plenty of opportunities to find out what they think about all sorts of things. I never tell them what I think about god - it's best to let them form their own opinions.

Peace

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings AoP, I don’t think we have encounted before, let me start by saying my warm welcomes to this forum. I am sure you would fit in nicely to this great forum.

Convert or Revert?

Firstly what I think of this issue is simple. Revert. Ever single being; which is born, is born as a Muslim (one who surrenders his will to God). Moreover this would be concordant with the ideas that, let’s assume a baby is born, and lives for about 2 months, were would it go? Heaven or Hell, as babies are born pure, and born as Muslims with Imaan, they would go heaven. So everyone is born as a Muslim, but you could say has been altered by their parents or themselves into another religion, or they might just stay Muslim. Allah knows best. So having decided to come to Islam later on in life, you are just reverting to what you were before.

Can you show me that newborns are born submiting to Allah?

Newborns can’t talk, speak or read at early stages of life. We can’t communicate and say “do you believe in God”; for obviously reasons. Now assuming you have studied a bit about Islam, you would know that this life is just a test; to see whether you believe or do not believe. You can’t see your soul, God, as if you could then where is the test? I can’t show or prove, newborns are submitting to Allah, just as you can’t prove they are not; as it is out of science.

Newborns have no concept of Allah/God ergo they are atheist.

See my above reply. Lets say you never ever seen me before, and it isn’t a forum with your “way of life” at the side stating the obvious, and I told you can you scientifically and empirically tell me what religion I am in. You would say “no”, as I would need to tell you. Or start talking about my views.
So logically you can never tell, as you can’t see Imaan (faith), soul.

A new born does not understand thw concept of Islam and Allah there for is an atheist.

Ok, I mean they don’t know concepts of how to hold a piece of paper properly at early stages, but you can’t prove they are atheist, or theist for this matter.

Lastly I would like to say, sorry if this was a rude introduction to me, as I wouldn’t want that.

Anyways looking forward to your reply,

Peace

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson,

Young children are obviously not newborns, but they are as close as we can get.

Agreed, but as I said, by the time they reach an age where you are able to have a meaningful exchange with a child there has been plenty of time for their Fitrah to be corrupted.

Interviewing a newborn baby is rarely successful and can often end messily...

No doubt! :D

Yes. I teach young children every day and I've had plenty of opportunities to find out what they think about all sorts of things.

That makes sense. How young are these children, if I may ask?

I never tell them what I think about god - it's best to let them form their own opinions.

I can understand that from your perspective. :)

Regards

[UmmSqueakster]

Absolutely no theological reason for it, I just don't like the word revert. It just seems weird to me. While I may have reverted to the original state that I had always felt was correct, I converted to a religious system based upon that state.

[salamfromrom]

I am a revert like Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Khattab, Khadijah and the first generation :P

hehe but all muslims are the same, born upon the fitrah. Revert or 'born' same thing.


salams

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Greetings czgibson,

Agreed, but as I said, by the time they reach an age where you are able to have a meaningful exchange with a child there has been plenty of time for their Fitrah to be corrupted.

This really is a bizarre idea. I could just as easily say that all babies are born worshipping Thor and have an inbuilt hatred of giraffes, and that the reason why this isn't always apparent is due to the "corrupting influences" of parents and society.

That makes sense. How young are these children, if I may ask?

The youngest children I teach at the moment are aged five, although I've taught kids as young as two in the past. The oldest person I've taught so far was 76, so you could say I've covered most of the age ranges.

I can understand that from your perspective. :)

You seem to be implying something there about the value of letting children make up their own minds.

Or have I misunderstood you?

Peace

[alcurad]

fitrah = conscience/capacity-mental?- for it
revert not= convert
I think some prefer it since convert is taken as someone who was not muslim before and it makes for an uneasy conversation at times if others fuss over it.
it doesn't matter that much anyway, the past is the past.
that being said, convert or revert; it is admirable mashallah, it takes much courage and strength to make that decision:)

[anonymous]

we believe everyone is born in submission to the creator, i.e muslim. islam means submission, a muslim is the one who submits. you probably notice the simularity between the letters islam and muslim. another example, jihad is to struggle in the path of Allah against the evils and wrongs in the world, and the mujahid is the one on that path.

so every child is born in this natural state of submission, submitting to the creator and with an inbuilt natural reverence instinct to worship their creator.

That is what I have read and been told too. However, after watching the video posted by brother convert, its made me think again..

[Uthman]

EDIT: I will watch the video first.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Greetings AoP, I don’t think we have encounted before, let me start by saying my warm welcomes to this forum. I am sure you would fit in nicely to this great forum.

Thank you. Nice to meet you. So far so good. :D

Convert or Revert?

Firstly what I think of this issue is simple. Revert. Ever single being; which is born, is born as a Muslim (one who surrenders his will to God). Moreover this would be concordant with the ideas that, let’s assume a baby is born, and lives for about 2 months, were would it go? Heaven or Hell, as babies are born pure, and born as Muslims with Imaan, they would go heaven. So everyone is born as a Muslim, but you could say has been altered by their parents or themselves into another religion, or they might just stay Muslim. Allah knows best. So having decided to come to Islam later on in life, you are just reverting to what you were before.

Added to the list of ways that Islam is better then Christianity.

Newborns can’t talk, speak or read at early stages of life. We can’t communicate and say “do you believe in God”; for obviously reasons. Now assuming you have studied a bit about Islam, you would know that this life is just a test; to see whether you believe or do not believe. You can’t see your soul, God, as if you could then where is the test? I can’t show or prove, newborns are submitting to Allah, just as you can’t prove they are not; as it is out of science.

A newborns universe is smaller the ours. If a newborn can not see something then it does not exist. When I leave a room I no longer exist as far as that newborn is concerend. Secondly newborns are working at a primal level. Not top dehumanize them but they are instinctual creatures. They parts of the brain required for complex thought is not developed yet. New Borns do not think, conceptionalize, know, or understand things ergo they can not beilive.

*Will try and find case studies*

See my above reply. Lets say you never ever seen me before, and it isn’t a forum with your “way of life” at the side stating the obvious, and I told you can you scientifically and empirically tell me what religion I am in. You would say “no”, as I would need to tell you. Or start talking about my views.
So logically you can never tell, as you can’t see Imaan (faith), soul.

There is a key difference. In the above case you are asking me to know your mind and heart. In the case of newborns the topic is what they are capable of. You do see the difference right?

Ok, I mean they don’t know concepts of how to hold a piece of paper properly at early stages, but you can’t prove they are atheist, or theist for this matter.

We can know what they are capable off.

Lastly I would like to say, sorry if this was a rude introduction to me, as I wouldn’t want that.

How could this possible be rude? Thanks for the welcome and I enjoyed your post. Hope you enjoy this one as well.

Anyways looking forward to your reply,

Peace

Peace to you too
Mick

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Greetings,

if you want to find out what understanding of god newborns might have, try asking several young children what they think about god. You'll get many different answers, and I guarantee that many of them will not be in line with the teachings of Islam.

Peace

First what does this have to do with newborns secondly we would need to do a double blind study and factor in environmental effects and causes.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

First what does this have to do with newborns secondly we would need to do a double blind study and factor in environmental effects and causes.

Granted, it's not a precise experiment - but does it even need to be?

If every child in the world gave the same answer about god, then there'd be a case for calling it innate knowledge. Given that that's not the case, I don't think ideas like "all babies are born Muslim" should be presented as facts.

Peace

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Well it would have to be double blind to deal with environmental issues.

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Thank you. Nice to meet you. So far so good. :D

:)

Added to the list of ways that Islam is better then Christianity.

I think you might know this, but take this in mind as well, Allah does not take you account for something you didn’t know. Let’s say that “accidently you munch on a bit of pork, unknowingly; that wouldn’t be against you, and ultimately Allah knows best.

A newborns universe is smaller the ours. If a newborn can not see something then it does not exist. When I leave a room I no longer exist as far as that newborn is concerend. Secondly newborns are working at a primal level. Not top dehumanize them but they are instinctual creatures. They parts of the brain required for complex thought is not developed yet. New Borns do not think, conceptionalize, know, or understand things ergo they can not beilive.

Ok, I agree that a newborns universe is smaller than ours LOL, but what I don’t agree is the statement; on which you said “...cannot see something then it does not exist”, as let’s say person X is behind the door, and it is shut so you can’t see the other side, you can’t say that person X doesn’t not exist. I understand what you are trying to say about newborns, you are talking about things that are physical; such as yourself, what you can’t bring into your “case study” is God, or the soul. You can use the example of yourself leaving the room, but not God. At the stage of newborn, the soul has Imaan. When the stages of puberty arrive, then you ultimately become “impure” and commit sins, on which you are accounted for, at that stage your soul, can become impure.

There is a key difference. In the above case you are asking me to know your mind and heart. In the case of newborns the topic is what they are capable of. You do see the difference right?

Yes, what “the examiners” are capable of viewing is the nail on the head, as the researchers (assuming under experiments; for a case study) cant examine their soul.

We can know what they are capable off.

Yes, “but you can’t prove they are atheist, or theist for this matter” just on knowing what they are capable off.

How could this possible be rude? Thanks for the welcome and I enjoyed your post. Hope you enjoy this one as well.

Lol sure did enjoy your post.

Peace.

[AhlaamBella]

If a child dies; they die Muslim. A child grows into an adult and becomes muslim; they reverted. That's the islamic view.

Linguistically; Convert is correct :D

[Whatsthepoint]

Naturally I don't think everyone is born a Muslim, or innocent for that matter, but I don't mind if converts refer to themselves as reverts as I used to.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

@Ali_Cena If we were to find that infants could not have concepts or know things then wouldn't that show the newborns are born at least mentally atheists? I mean they can not mentally believing in God if that concept does not exist in their head. So if they are not capable of the concept they can not believe ergo they would be an atheist. Right?

Physically/biological/mentally speaking. Let us leave spiritually to the side for now? Is that ok with you?

Peace
Mick

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

I see this thread seems to be some what of a hot topic at the moment.

If a child dies; they die Muslim. A child grows into an adult and becomes muslim; they reverted. That's the islamic view.

Linguistically; Convert is correct :D

Naturally I don't think everyone is born a Muslim, or innocent for that matter, but I don't mind if converts refer to themselves as reverts as I used to.

Really it comes down to two things. One if Allah and Islam are true, and the only truth, then it is a revert. Also the above are newborns even capable of having faith or knowing God?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Naturally I don't think everyone is born a Muslim, or innocent for that matter, but I don't mind if converts refer to themselves as reverts as I used to.

Did you use to be a Muslim, wtp?

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Greetings,


Did you use to be a Muslim, wtp?

Peace

Hehe, no, I used to mind the word revert.:D
Hence my profile title, agnostic revert.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Hehe, no, I used to mind the word revert.:D
Hence my profile title, agnostic revert.

ZING! Sorry, that was so funny.
:bump1:

[AhlaamBella]

Also the above are newborns even capable of having faith or knowing God?

As you probably know the general Islamic belief is that in order to enter paradise, belief in Allah and his messenger is a vital factor. However, as you quite rightly said how are children even capable to have the understanding of religious concepts? They don't. Therefore, how would it be fair for a child who is being raised non-muslim be classed as such on the Day of Judgement? Hence, a child will always dies in the state of Islam when they return to their creator. Alas.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

As you probably know the general Islamic belief is that in order to enter paradise, belief in Allah and his messenger is a vital factor. However, as you quite rightly said how are children even capable to have the understanding of religious concepts? They don't. Therefore, how would it be fair for a child who is being raised non-muslim be classed as such on the Day of Judgement? Hence, a child will always dies in the state of Islam when they return to their creator. Alas.

Right mentally and physically and atheist but "spiritually" a Muslim. They hold no belief structure at all. So they would only be Muslims in the sense that their soul is a Muslim.

[Ali_Cena]

Yo Mick!

Let us leave spiritually to the side for now? Is that ok with you?

Well obviously if you leave out spirit, soul, and God, then obviously you are an atheist, but when you don’t leave out Islam, you are Muslim.
So it’s whether you think Islam is the truth, or not; that these philosophies come into play. For an atheist everything that I said about being born a Muslim and so on is fictional, and for me being born an atheist doesn’t work with me. At the end of the day it’s about what is the truth.

Peace :)

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Yo Mick!



Well obviously if you leave out spirit, soul, and God, then obviously you are an atheist, but when you don’t leave out Islam, you are Muslim.
So it’s whether you think Islam is the truth, or not; that these philosophies come into play. For an atheist everything that I said about being born a Muslim and so on is fictional, and for me being born an atheist doesn’t work with me. At the end of the day it’s about what is the truth.

Peace :)

That is not what I meant in this case. I did not ask to to take the spiritual aspect out, just not look at it at the moment. It is different from the physical I am talking about. You could say they are believer because in there souls, which is metaphysics, the are a Muslim. I can say they are born atheist because there brain has no way to have a concept of God and Islam.

So if we look at them separately, we will both be on the same page. You know what I mean. If we start comparing the physical and the metaphysical we will get know where.
So lets finish covering physically then we shall do metaphysically and then finally add them together. Does that work for you?
Peace
Mick

[Ali_Cena]

Hi,

That is not what I meant in this case. I did not ask to to take the spiritual aspect out, just not look at it at the moment. It is different from the physical I am talking about. You could say they are believer because in there souls, which is metaphysics, the are a Muslim. I can say they are born atheist because there brain has no way to have a concept of God and Islam.
So if we look at them separately, we will both be on the same page. You know what I mean. If we start comparing the physical and the metaphysical we will get know where.
So let’s finish covering physically then we shall do metaphysically and then finally add them together. Does that work for you?

Ok I understand what you are saying. Now on to my point, so if they have no concept of making decisions let’s say, then why would they be atheist? They wouldn’t be either theist or atheist until they make that decision.
Atheist by definition: someone who denies the existence of god (if you don’t know what God is then how can you reject it); http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...G=Search&meta=
So if they don’t know concepts such as God, then how are they rejecting it, you might as well call them born ignorant “for rejecting something they know nothing about”, you get what I am saying?

Peace Mick,
Allah knows best.

[alcurad]

no, regardless of factoring in the soul or not they cannot be atheistic for the simple reason that they cannot grasp the idea of God let alone deny or reject it.
agnostic would be a better description, but even that's stretching it too far.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Now this is funny, about a week ago, I was arguing that very same point on RDF an atheist Site I post on. Would you like a link to that thread? What it came down to is, you do not need to reject something to not believe in it. Atheism does not require an active disbelief. Also adding in the rejecting the idea would mostly likely add the whole agnosticism. You can be both, but you have to be either an atheist or a theist.

Really, this is great. I was arguing that point a week ago. Of course I was arguing it for a different reason. Would you believe that I had this convo a week ago before I told you I did? No. So you would not believe it. Not believing and disbelieving are/can be some what different. Disbelieving is actively not believing. I am doing both. Do you see my point?


Peace
Mick
Again shall I get a link?

Hi,



Ok I understand what you are saying. Now on to my point, so if they have no concept of making decisions let’s say, then why would they be atheist? They wouldn’t be either theist or atheist until they make that decision.
Atheist by definition: someone who denies the existence of god (if you don’t know what God is then how can you reject it); http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...G=Search&meta=
So if they don’t know concepts such as God, then how are they rejecting it, you might as well call them born ignorant “for rejecting something they know nothing about”, you get what I am saying?

Peace Mick,
Allah knows best.

[alcurad]

^not sure I understood that well, the gist of what I said was if you aren't aware of an argument/belief how would you be anything but neutral to it.
a child would not be able to understand what was being spoken, let alone what/who the creator was.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Here is the thread at RDF
http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/...t=150#p1890782
Start where it opens or from the first post. Gotta run to work. See you all tonight.

For those who do not click I will do my best to rephrase and state what the outcome is.

Ps Ill post a link to here there if I have to. Don't get made at me for not posting a link back I am in a rush
PEace
Mick

[Ali_Cena]

Hi Mick, tried my hardest to understand what you posted but here is my response.

Now this is funny, about a week ago, I was arguing that very same point on RDF an atheist Site I post on.

LOL man you are in too many forums hehe TMZ RDF probably FGS or ELS lol only joking.

you do not need to reject something to not believe in it. Atheism does not require an active disbelief.

I disagree, atheism is an active disbelieve of a deity, you make it “does not need active” to suit the case of newborns were you see them born as atheists. Hear me out...if you do not need to reject “the thing” in order to not believe in it then it is an unactive or unconditional thing, whereas atheism is an active disbelief.

Lol I don’t think I am making this clear for you, you seem to make atheism a “sometimes inactive disbelief” but I don’t agree with that. Furthermore it would make your argument on newborns being born atheist correct, and I disagree on that, I mean I looked at your RDF and found out you and arugula made it seem as new babies are born atheist, but that what you think, moreover you can argue that scientifically babies brain is not complex enough to know about concepts such as God at early stages so they are athiest, but, bring spirit, soul and God into the picture (and make me feel good, man you have been keeping this out and i think it is important in this dialouge :D) then we have faith and belief can become "an unconditional belife" as not having an active belief to believe in it.

Anyways I have to revise for my exams, so I too am off but I will see you soon and waiting for your response.

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

no, regardless of factoring in the soul or not they cannot be atheistic for the simple reason that they cannot grasp the idea of God let alone deny or reject it.
agnostic would be a better description, but even that's stretching it too far.

Agnostic means without knowledge and children are indeed without knowledge of god.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

All right. For now can we all agree that newborns are agnostic?

Now what is a soul? What makes a soul? What defines a soul? What makes my soul different from yours? When I die what will my sould be considered? What type of soul will it be?

[greenshirt]

i am a revert and not a convert because the natural fitrah is islam. i reverted back to the fitrah.

atheistofpeace you have asked some excellent questions. insha allah someone will answer you. i wish i could but i dont want to say something wrong!

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

This is great. I am back to my original opinion that newborns are not atheist or theist. Now I am going to have to start the debate again at RDF. Thanks. Anyways there is still a second half for us to cover.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

i am a revert and not a convert because the natural fitrah is islam. i reverted back to the fitrah.

atheistofpeace you have asked some excellent questions. insha allah someone will answer you. i wish i could but i dont want to say something wrong!

Do not fear that. How wold you know what you know if you do not try?

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings all that is interested, I am sure this is turning into a good thread.

All right. For now can we all agree that newborns are agnostic?

Well Mick, I agree with you; on the premise if you take out Islam, and just leave let’s say science; non-religion, that babies are born, agnostic in the sense that they have not made their decision yet, concerning being atheist or theist, but that is assuming no religion is present. Now which way you want this argument to go; “you did say let’s bring the both (ideas) together”, will make things more interesting.

Now what is a soul?

Good questions, I will start by saying the soul is the unseen you. Your way of life.

What makes a soul?

Your opinions, you think atheism is true, ergo your soul is; in Islamic terms: dead; assuming you will always stay atheist, and that my friend only Allah the creator knows; if you soul is dead or not.

What defines a soul? What makes my soul different from yours?

See my above post, your opinion, your way of life. I like to bring up this very good case, you might be calling yourself a Muslim; which means one who surrenders their will to almighty God, by performing what he is asked of, but at the end of the day not doing what you have been told then when you go to the afterlife you aren’t technically a Muslim, ergo Allah knows best.

When I die what will my soul be considered? What type of soul will it be?

Depends on your final choice, have to pass the test or not? I mean one of our great members snakelegs; who when she was here claimed agnosticism, but when she was ill, and in hospital one of her last things she done Mashallah was claim shahada; become Muslims Mashallah, so luckily for her she found the truth, and so (Allah knows best) she was sent “up there” as a Muslim.

You have raised some good points, I like greenshirt hope I have not said anything wrong here, as I too am still learning Islam and Inshallah be forgiven for any mistakes which I have done.

Peace all.

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson,

This really is a bizarre idea. I could just as easily say that all babies are born worshipping Thor and have an inbuilt hatred of giraffes, and that the reason why this isn't always apparent is due to the "corrupting influences" of parents and society.

I have yet to watch the video posted by brother convert and so I will refrain from responding to this point until I am sure that I have understood the concept of Fitrah properly.

The youngest children I teach at the moment are aged five, although I've taught kids as young as two in the past. The oldest person I've taught so far was 76, so you could say I've covered most of the age ranges.

That's impressive. :)

You seem to be implying something there about the value of letting children make up their own minds.

Or have I misunderstood you?

You have misunderstood me. My meaning was that I can understand why you, as an atheist, would think it is best to let people form their own opinions whereas I, as a Muslim have a duty to call people to the truth.

Regards

[Tornado]

I disagree, atheism is an active disbelieve of a deity, you make it “does not need active” to suit the case of newborns were you see them born as atheists. Hear me out...if you do not need to reject “the thing” in order to not believe in it then it is an unactive or unconditional thing, whereas atheism is an active disbelief.

Lol I don’t think I am making this clear for you, you seem to make atheism a “sometimes inactive disbelief” but I don’t agree with that. Furthermore it would make your argument on newborns being born atheist correct, and I disagree on that, I mean I looked at your RDF and found out you and arugula made it seem as new babies are born atheist, but that what you think, moreover you can argue that scientifically babies brain is not complex enough to know about concepts such as God at early stages so they are athiest, but, bring spirit, soul and God into the picture (and make me feel good, man you have been keeping this out and i think it is important in this dialouge :D) then we have faith and belief can become "an unconditional belife" as not having an active belief to believe in it.

Peace

Ali_Cena, do you know the difference between a hard atheist and a soft atheist?

Do you know the difference between the following two:

1. I believe in no god. (hard atheist)

2. I don't believe in a god (soft atheist, majority)


Woud you be surprised if I said you can believe in the following two simultaneously:

1. I don't believe in a god.
2. I don't believe in no god.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Can you tell me more about souls? Then I will start my comments

[alcurad]

All right. For now can we all agree that newborns are agnostic?

Now what is a soul? What makes a soul? What defines a soul? What makes my soul different from yours? When I die what will my sould be considered? What type of soul will it be?

there is no clear cut definition of soul, but I don't think it 'dies' or is even 'alive' in the normal usage of the words.
but having a soul means that you are alive, whether you could be alive of not without it depends on what is life :), this is endless.
perhaps the more alive you are, the more you have come to know what your soul means.
that is, the soul is defined by life's purpose, it could be changed. that is all there is to the soul, any more and it's another metaphysical concept that everyone could argue about and not agree.

a soul is our metaphysical body, our needs/desires and actions manifest. either it is not physical or it is one of the few existences that are truly physical. depends on how much you lean to the-sophist?- position of all viewpoints-except The Creator's if you believe in him-being equal to an extent.

now this is somewhat off topic.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

My oh My. So how would a soul like that make a newborn born a Muslim?

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

this would be a difficult one

I am thinking the truth of the matter with out with out souls we are born agnostic.

[alcurad]

I don't think your soul has any religion when you are born. we have souls, and we are agnostic when born because we don't know, agnosticism is the child's position. no one remains agnostic, even self proclaimed -adult :)- agnostics have a religion, they just don't admit it.

rather the way the brain is made, it is easier for it to have a conscience than not to. thus children are born upon 'fitrah', fitrah = conscience. sound fitrah leads to Islam, Islam = the religion all prophets preached, as well as the religion that is the culmination of all non-prophetic or so called man-made religions.
children aren't really muslim, they are sinless, with no capacity for understanding the consequences of their actions, thus they are not thrown into hell.

now truly off topic.

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Ali_Cena, do you know the difference between a hard atheist and a soft atheist?

Do you know the difference between the following two:

1. I believe in no god. (hard atheist)

2. I don't believe in a god (soft atheist, majority)

Yes:), I do, and i dont think its called "soft" and "hard" its more "strong" and "weak" athiesm

Woud you be surprised if I said you can believe in the following two simultaneously:

1. I don't believe in a god.
2. I don't believe in no god.

Yes, statment one is more of a rejection of a particulare God, and statment 2 is more of a rejection of the whole "God" idea. statment 1 seems more weak athiesm, and statment 2 more of a strong athiesm; take Richard Dawkins for example.

You can belive in the 2 simultaneously; as you can reject the God of a certain faith lets say, christianity, and also say i reject the whole idea of God also. Or am i misunderstood?

I dont think this has any relevene to the topic, but you could show us how it does.

Peace

[Ali_Cena]

Hi Mick,

Can you tell me more about souls? Then I will start my comments

We have only limited information about certain things in our religion, and my mind is only stored limited information on limited data,

You ask and ill see if i can get to it.

Peace

[Ali_Cena]

:sl:

I don't think your soul has any religion when you are born. we have souls, and we are agnostic when born because we don't know, agnosticism is the child's position. no one remains agnostic, even self proclaimed -adult :)- agnostics have a religion, they just don't admit it.

rather the way the brain is made, it is easier for it to have a conscience than not to. thus children are born upon 'fitrah', fitrah = conscience. sound fitrah leads to Islam, Islam = the religion all prophets preached, as well as the religion that is the culmination of all non-prophetic or so called man-made religions.
children aren't really muslim, they are sinless, with no capacity for understanding the consequences of their actions, thus they are not thrown into hell.

now truly off topic.

Not to sound rude, but i think youv got it wrong, we have a natural fitrah at birth, or even before birth. So we do have a religion when we are born.

Peace

:w:

[alcurad]

it's not rude to disagree :), consider that a newborn child does not know anything about the five daily prayers, or how to perform ablution, or what are the five pillars then you'll see why I don' think they don't have a religion at birth, or you are alluding an alternative meaning for religion?

[Ali_Cena]

:sl:

it's not rude to disagree :), consider that a newborn child does not know anything about the five daily prayers, or how to perform ablution, or what are the five pillars then you'll see why I don' think they don't have a religion at birth, or you are alluding an alternative meaning for religion?

Salaam brother, ok, first things first Allah the creator does not hold you accountable for something on which you did not know. Take the examples for you didn’t know that eating a mango was haraam, and you eat it after a few hours you found out it was haraam; you won’t be held accountable for what you did now know. Allah knows best.

Now there is no such thing as original sin, babies are born pure, now this means that suppose babies are sinless, and if they don't know anything about five daily prayers, or how to perform ablution, or what are the five pillars, then they won’t be held accountable for those “lack of knowledge’s” until they are at a stage of knowing. So babys are in a sense pure if they are sinless, then obviously they have to be muslim by soul, so you cant call a baby a kaffir (non-Muslim) at birth as then they would have sins. It makes perfect sense that they are born with imam in their soul at birth; in order to complete their pureness.

This is great as we have new findings in this thread, first we thought that babies are agnostics (they don't know) but second half beginning we have to include religion into this (as mentioned by me and Mick) so now bring religion into this, and you have a pure fresh new soul, with nothing wrong hence stating that the newborn has its soul with Imaan (unconditionally) without knowing until they can make up their decisions by themselves (as you do have a free-will you know).
What you guys think,

SECOND HALF HAS BEGUN!! :D lol

Peace

:w:

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Great post. I'll spend some time going over it in my head. Chew on this for now. There is no compuslion in religon right? Islam is a choice? Then new borns have to be born agnostic.

[Shamshīr-Amir]

We prefer to be called reverts, since we believe everyone is born a Muslim. And in a sinless state, I might add, unlike many Christians believe.

I'm surprised it's only Islam used the term 'revert'. Any religion which believes it is the true religion (so all of them) should call people who join it from a different faith a 'revert'.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

We prefer to be called reverts, since we believe everyone is born a Muslim. And in a sinless state, I might add, unlike many Christians believe.

I'm surprised it's only Islam used the term 'revert'. Any religion which believes it is the true religion (so all of them) should call people who join it from a different faith a 'revert'.

If you are born Muslim then how is there no compulsion in Religion. How can Islam be a choice?

[Ali_Cena]

Hi Mick,

Great post. I'll spend some time going over it in my head. Chew on this for now. There is no compuslion in religon right? Islam is a choice? Then new borns have to be born agnostic.

You have that right there is no compulsion in Islam, but only when you are bringing others into it; which they feel Islam is not the truth, take for example the case of a girl in which you want to marry and she is not Muslim, and in order to marry her, she has to be a Muslim, she doesn’t want to become Muslims yet you force her into it, without her permission and that’s not allowed. See that case is right only when they are old enough the make that decision for themselves, by saying no I don't think Islam is the right religion then you want force them. But at newborn stage they can’t make decision and well, what’s more fair and just, going to hell without even knowing what’s going on or heaven? Are you going to complain to God for going to heaven? NEVER!!

Peace Mick, and good post.

[Ali_Cena]

If you are born Muslim then how is there no compulsion in Religion. How can Islam be a choice?

LOL at that stage you cant make that decision for yourselfs, you should be lucky that God has given you faith(made the decision for you temporarly; until you fully commit to that) so that you can atleast go to heaven, i mean it would be awkward if you go to heaven and you complain, and more unusual if you would go heaven (by not makeing decision and not being muslim) at newborn stage, then dieing, going to hell, and then not complaining about it.

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

LOL at that stage you cant make that decision for yourselfs, you should be lucky that God has given you faith(made the decision for you temporarly; until you fully commit to that) so that you can atleast go to heaven, i mean it would be awkward if you go to heaven and you complain, and more unusual if you would go heaven (by not makeing decision and not being muslim) at newborn stage, then dieing, going to hell, and then not complaining about it.

Peace

Are you suggesting that god gives everyone faith? Never having been a believer in any religion, I'd consider myself an exception to that.

Peace

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Greetings to you to Callum :)

Are you suggesting that god gives everyone faith?

yes;when you cant make that decision for yourself. The topic we are discussing right now are about newborn babies; as I am sure you are aware off. I just stated that at birth; when you cannot make decisions for yourself, you are clean, sinless, which means your soul has Imaan (faith) unconditionally, until you can start to make that decision for yourself. You can choose to stay on the right path, or become an atheist; like yourself.

Never having been a believer in any religion,

Well you see, when you were born pure and sinless, you did you did believe in God, and his oneness, but later on you choose (as you have a free-will) to become an atheist.

Peace

[Yanal]

I was born a Muslim so neither.
But to clarify revert means: someone who was an atheist who accepted Islam and convert means someone from another religion accepting Islam?
Please correct me.

[Ali_Cena]

Salaam brother,

You are mistaken, revert just means you have reverted back to the religion you converted from.

Whereas convert just means you convert from religion "A" to "B"

Revert just means comeing back. Whereas convert is going from "A" to "B"

It doesnt have to be coming from athiesm it can come from any religion or way of life.

Wasalaam brother.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Well you see, when you were born pure and sinless, you did you did believe in God, and his oneness

How can you possibly know that?

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

It's what he believes. It is a perfectly valid belief.

[Uthman]

It's what he believes. It is a perfectly valid belief.

Indeed, although it's not a belief which can be proven (or disproven for that matter) scientifically or logically. I believe it because Islam tells me it is true.

[Whatsthepoint]

Indeed, although it's not a belief which can be proven (or disproven for that matter) scientifically or logically. I believe it because Islam tells me it is true.

Exactly and that's why it makes no sense to argue.
I'd argue however if someone claimed a famous dutch scientists recently proved that newborns are monotheists..

[Yanal]

JazakAllah brother Ali_Cena.

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

Greetings,


How can you possibly know that?

Peace

Simple's the Quran; the word of God.

[Ali_Cena]

:sl:

JazakAllah brother Ali_Cena.

No problem brother, nice to help out.

:w:

[Yanal]

Now a question: if a Muslim converts to Christianity and prophet Isa destroys the false cross will he/she be able to revert back? and gain a place in paradise without a sin of converting in the first place.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

It's what he believes. It is a perfectly valid belief.

Is it any more or less valid than the belief that all babies are born worshipping Thor and with an inbuilt hatred of giraffes?

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Greetings,


Is it any more or less valid than the belief that all babies are born worshipping Thor and with an inbuilt hatred of giraffes?

Peace

No, but no Muslim here has claimed it is, have they?

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,


Is it any more or less valid than the belief that all babies are born worshipping Thor and with an inbuilt hatred of giraffes?

Peace

Callum, one thing that really gets me annoyed :raging::raging: is the argument you and dawkins always use "thor" "thor this thor that" "spaghetti man this and that", listen you have to base your judgments on how good a religion is; take for example if it has no contradictions and no scientifict errors, now the time of zeuz and thor, they were beliving such non-scientific and non-sensical things, but atleast the Quran is up to date with science, and with no contradictions. so why would you still belive in such religion, second off i am very sure that the made up God of thor didnt mention anything about babies being born worshiping him.

Peace

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

How does being born pure=being born a muslim. I am not following you logic.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Callum, one thing that really gets me annoyed :raging::raging: is the argument you and dawkins always use "thor" "thor this thor that" "spaghetti man this and that", listen you have to base your judgments on how good a religion is; take for example if it has no contradictions and no scientifict errors, now the time of zeuz and thor, they were beliving such non-scientific and non-sensical things, but atleast the Quran is up to date with science, and with no contradictions. so why would you still belive in such religion, second off i am very sure that the made up God of thor didnt mention anything about babies being born worshiping him.

Peace

You say the Quran is such, but that does not make it so. That is a beilife. One that not every one has.

[Yanal]

Belief*

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Callum, one thing that really gets me annoyed :raging::raging: is the argument you and dawkins always use "thor" "thor this thor that" "spaghetti man this and that",

I'm sorry if you find it annoying, but really that's your issue and not mine.

Atheists are likely to mention Thor from time to time simply because, like Allah, he is a member of a very long list of gods that we don't believe in.

listen you have to base your judgments on how good a religion is; take for example if it has no contradictions and no scientifict errors, now the time of zeuz and thor, they were beliving such non-scientific and non-sensical things, but atleast the Quran is up to date with science, and with no contradictions.

The Qur'an is a 7th century text that doesn't even claim to be a scientific book. It is clearly very far from being "up to date with science".

so why would you still belive in such religion, second off i am very sure that the made up God of thor didnt mention anything about babies being born worshiping him.

Would it make any difference if he had?!

If you like, you can ignore the Thor reference. Try the other one:

Do you have any reason (other than the argument from authority) to think that your belief that babies are all born Muslims is any more valid than my imaginary belief that all babies are born with an inbuilt hatred of giraffes?

Peace

[Woodrow]

How does being born pure=being born a muslim. I am not following you logic.

First it takes an understanding of what being Muslim means. It is impossible to separate purity from Muslim if a person is a Muslim to the highest level possible. Which just may be attainable only by newborns. a Muslim submits fully to Allaah(swt) there are no other distractions. A new born is probably the best example of what a Muslim strives to be.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


I take the view that a baby is born upon the fitrah [natural disposition] of knowing that there is one God etc. so not necessarily a Muslim in the sense that he knows how to perform the prayer, hajj, how much to give in zakah etc.

This was the view of Shaykh Waleed Basyouni too.


Allah knows best.

[Muhajabah]

Salaam aleikum

I use the expressions here and there. I say "convert" when I talk to non-muslims, and "revert" to muslims. But I never say "i converted" or "I reverted to islam", I say "I found Islam".

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Is there any reason out side of the Koran that would indicate that hte souls of newborns are born with faith in Allah?

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Some one asked why don't the other religions use the term revert, I find that to be a great question.

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

I'm sorry if you find it annoying, but really that's your issue and not mine.

Ok. :)

Atheists are likely to mention Thor from time to time simply because, like Allah, he is a member of a very long list of gods that we don't believe in.

I can see that, whether or not it helps them with their argument is another matter, and we Muslims will be bringing up Allah as he is the only God that we worship.

The Qur'an is a 7th century text that doesn't even claim to be a scientific book. It is clearly very far from being "up to date with science".

So what if it doesn’t claim to be? Does it mean it isn’t, I mean it hasn’t claimed not to be. I think you would find it is up to date with science; as it doesn’t hold any scientific errors.

Would it make any difference if he had?!

Well obviously, if you were to state he was ultimately correct then everything that he has said must be correct right? Now if he had said everyone was born loving giraffes; and assuming he is ultimate truth, and then everyone would be born loving giraffes. Silly question really.

Do you have any reason (other than the argument from authority) to think that your belief that babies are all born Muslims is any more valid than my imaginary belief that all babies are born with an inbuilt hatred of giraffes?

No just as you don't have any supporting arguments that hold the belief that babies are all born with an inbuilt hatred of giraffes.

Peace

Regards.

[Ali_Cena]

Some one asked why don't the other religions use the term revert, I find that to be a great question.

Yes, I do too, but i dont think you should be pointing that question towards us Muslism...:D

Peace Mick,

[Woodrow]

Is there any reason out side of the Koran that would indicate that hte souls of newborns are born with faith in Allah?

A newborn is totally trusting and full off expectation that all of his needs will be met. a baby communicates based upon trust and assurance that he will be met with love. A baby has the ability to interact with those it does not understand nor can fully see.

That seems to be a reasonably accurate description as to how a person submitting to Allaah(swt) would act.

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings Mick

Is there any reason out side of the Koran that would indicate that hte souls of newborns are born with faith in Allah?

No the main source for Islam is the Quran, not what I say or what you think its about what Allah thinks and ultimately wills.
When you say outside of the “Quran” I don't think you should look any further, to places such as science as this issue concerning “soul” is outside of it.

Peace

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

the soul is a metaphysicla version of us right? What we are the soul is? What the soul is we are?

[Forced_In]

Is there any reason out side of the Koran
that would indicate that hte souls of newborns are born with faith in Allah?

Hello - assalam

Hmm, I remembered one of the few research articles I had read some time ago.
So here comes a controversial issue for every one here to make you busy for a
while , LOL. At least I suppose there is some clues in it. :)

http://cruciality.wordpress.com/2008...belief-in-god/

Peace - wassalam

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Thanks for the link. I'll work on it.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Quick read threw the report seems to be lacky was the test even double blind?

[Forced_In]

Quick read threw the report seems to be
lacky was the test even double blind?

Hello - assalam

Well, what do you mean by "double blind" ?

If you want extra info on this please g00gle for something like "belief children
god" ( without quotations ). One more link on this is :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...igion-children

Unfortunately i did not find the link to original paper. Maybe someone with
more searching can find that.

Regards.

Peace - wassalam

[VidiaStarLight]

I understand what both sides are saying, but I think I can see the Revert side a bit better.

:)

[Yanal]

Why sister as a Muslim and neither having the experience of being a convert or revert you should see both sides equally.... Maybe I could help if you have any questions about converts or the members of LI because our knowlegable brotther Woodrow who is a convert .

[VidiaStarLight]

Yanal, i guess what I meant to say it that, after reading both sides of a discussion or argument I can see how boths...think...i guess is how you would put it, I am open-minded in most subjects.

btw...i would pm a lot of questions but the pm on here won't let me until I post 50 posts...I can post my email if necessary.

[Yanal]

No that will make you have an infraction (trust me i got one) i was just wondering if you had any questions....

[VidiaStarLight]

I have plenty, but too shy to ask out loud due to the fact that I don't want to offend anyone. I do better with one on one either PMs or messangers.

[UmmSqueakster]

There is a hadith of the Prophet (saws), in which he said:

“How good are the women of Ansar (helpers) that their shyness does not prevent them from learning religion."

Don't let your shyness get in the way :statisfie inshaAllah if you are sincerely seeking information about the religion, people will not (or at least should not) get offended by the questions.

While talking with a person one on one can be comfortable, it's not the ideal situation unless you're talking with a person of knowledge (and I don't think we have any of them here on this board). The rest of us are mere students (if even) and we may be mistaken in our answers. If the questions are posted publicly, then if one answerer makes a mistake, another can correct him/her.

[aadil77]

I have plenty, but too shy to ask out loud due to the fact that I don't want to offend anyone. I do better with one on one either PMs or messangers.

Theres plenty of members here who will be willing to help you out. Just post your questions in a thread, or if unsuitable for all members then try the sisters section or pm them after you have enough posts. You can also post as anonymous :thumbs_up

peace

[VidiaStarLight]

Am I allowed in the sisters section? I have not converted yet...

[UmmSqueakster]

There is a mixed females (for muslim and non muslim women) section that you can apply to join here - http://www.islamicboard.com/profile....editusergroups - I'm not sure if there is a post minimum.

It isn't very active, but perhaps if you joined, the sisters in the sisters only section would see and post :)

[Ali_Cena]

Hello there Mick, hope you are doing well, and enjoying the forum.

the soul is a metaphysicla version of us right?

Yes you could put it in this format.

What we are the soul is?

well how we behave, and think not the whole of "we" is the soul.

What the soul is we are?

again see my previouse reply.

The way you have laid it out Mick it seems that it isnt metaphysical as if we are the soul, then you can see the soul, and you can experiment the soul, so it wont be metaphysical.

I would say the soul is how we think, the soul is more of the center of the body: Mind and heart. now i now the heart doesnt do the thinking but you can understand what i mean.

Peace

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Hello there Mick, hope you are doing well, and enjoying the forum.



Yes you could put it in this format.



well how we behave, and think not the whole of "we" is the soul.



again see my previouse reply.

The way you have laid it out Mick it seems that it isnt metaphysical as if we are the soul, then you can see the soul, and you can experiment the soul, so it wont be metaphysical.

I would say the soul is how we think, the soul is more of the center of the body: Mind and heart. now i now the heart doesnt do the thinking but you can understand what i mean.

Peace

So our soul would be our essence and would be a reflection of who we are? I am just looking for a good agreed view of what a souls is if we have one so that I can talk about if having a pure soul leads to faith/belief. I want the idea to be laid out in a simple to follow out line with a few key points.

[coddles76]

Right mentally and physically and atheist but "spiritually" a Muslim. They hold no belief structure at all. So they would only be Muslims in the sense that their soul is a Muslim.

Please don't be offended but you have just compared atheists, and yourself for that matter, to having a mental and physical ability equivalent to a baby with no control of there thoughts, actions and/or ideas.
If thats the case, you have correctly indentified the concept of atheism which is a concept lacking alot of mental stimulus

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Please don't be offended but you have just compared atheists, and yourself for that matter, to having a mental and physical ability equivalent to a baby with no control of there thoughts, actions and/or ideas.
If thats the case, you have correctly indentified the concept of atheism which is a concept lacking alot of mental stimulus

Well thats not what I meant to say. But if you look at post following that I am sure you will see that.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Well thats not what I meant to say. But if you look at post following that I am sure you will see that.

its ok :)

[Yanal]

We have a non Muslim sister section also.Glad I could help but no more :offtopic:

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

So our soul would be our essence and would be a reflection of who we are?

Well in layman terms yes; the definition that you give would be okay.

so that I can talk about if having a pure soul leads to faith/belief.

Now i knew you were going to use this argument, but before you do that let me tell you one thing, some people such as athiest, do not have a soul; in terms of a soul, they dont have one. that is assuming you never come to agreeing on God, now let me ask you one thing mick, do you think you will ever find God? if no and you strongly agree with that like dawkins, then (Allah knows best) you dont have a soul.

Peace be with you my freind.

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Greetings,



Well in layman terms yes; the definition that you give would be okay.



Now i knew you were going to use this argument, but before you do that let me tell you one thing, some people such as athiest, do not have a soul; in terms of a soul, they dont have one. that is assuming you never come to agreeing on God, now let me ask you one thing mick, do you think you will ever find God? if no and you strongly agree with that like dawkins, then (Allah knows best) you dont have a soul.

Peace be with you my freind.

Does that mean I can not go to Hell?

[Ali_Cena]

Hi Mick,

Does that mean I can not go to Hell?

Did you understand what i just said?

I dont think you understood, the point is if you are a strong athiest lets say and is always trying to question God, take the perfect example "dawkins" he says things like "my mission is to kill religion" that kind of stuff, then obviously what right do you have to go to heaven? maybe a few such as giving charity etc. but the big fact is that you are ultimalty disobeying your Lord, in which is the important factor in deciding whether you go heaven or not.

Now you say does that mean i can not go to hell? No one is gauranteed to go to heaven exept from prophets, you obviously are not, and you are an ordinary person, who can go heaven or hell, now depending on whether you stay atheist all your life, and are a strong one, then no you are going hell (Allah knows best), but assume you are agnostic, and later find truth in Islam, you will have a very good chance of going heaven hopefully, as one good point about you is that you are a peacfull athiest, and not so much of an extremist such as dawkins.

Peace, let me know if you get what i said.

[أبو سليمان عمر]

Does that mean I can not go to Hell?

Allah does not force anyone to submit to Him. He has layed out a clear path and then made it known to them the two ways (Heaven or Hell). The person is always free to make his or her own choice. There is not complusion in the way of "Islam." Whoever choses to worship Allah without partners and is devoted to Him and is obeying His commands as much as possible, has grasped the firm handhold that will never break. Whoever denies God and choses some other way to worship or not to believe at all, for them there is an eternal punishment that is most horrible (Hell).
Allah only accepts Islam. He says in the Quran: "Whoever seeks a religion or way of life other than Islam it won't be accepted of him, and he will be one of the losers in the hereafter". I would rather lose anywhere, but not lose in the hereafter. This is because Hellfire is eternal. It never ends, and we never die when we go there, if we go there.

So breaking it down a person who doesn't accept Islam doesn't have a chance A person who does has a chance

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Hi Mick,



Did you understand what i just said?

I dont think you understood, the point is if you are a strong athiest lets say and is always trying to question God, take the perfect example "dawkins" he says things like "my mission is to kill religion" that kind of stuff, then obviously what right do you have to go to heaven? maybe a few such as giving charity etc. but the big fact is that you are ultimalty disobeying your Lord, in which is the important factor in deciding whether you go heaven or not.

Now you say does that mean i can not go to hell? No one is gauranteed to go to heaven exept from prophets, you obviously are not, and you are an ordinary person, who can go heaven or hell, now depending on whether you stay atheist all your life, and are a strong one, then no you are going hell (Allah knows best), but assume you are agnostic, and later find truth in Islam, you will have a very good chance of going heaven hopefully, as one good point about you is that you are a peacfull athiest, and not so much of an extremist such as dawkins.

Peace, let me know if you get what i said.

Ok. lol. Ya, I get that, and had gotten that. I just got all confused when you said I didn't have a soul. What did you mean by that?

*As you can see I am both agnostic and an atheist.*

[Yanal]

Yes I know that.

[Ali_Cena]

Ok. lol. Ya, I get that, and had gotten that. I just got all confused when you said I didn't have a soul. What did you mean by that?

*As you can see I am both agnostic and an atheist.*

Hello, when did i say you dont have a soul? i dont remember that, as Only Allah the creator knows that, i gave an example such as dawkins, who is a very strong extremist athiest, who is much more likely not to have a soul, than someone who is an agnostic loving athiest...

Peace brother.

[Uthman]

The closest I can come to in the way of evidence for the Fitrah is the sense of 'returning home' that has been described by those converting/revertubg to Islam. They themselves have said that it felt as though they were returning to their natural state when they converted/reverted to Islam. I know at least two people who have described this feeling, one of whom is brother Woodrow who said somewhere that it just 'took him a long time to realise that he was a Muslim'.

[hopeful19]

convert

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings, I see you are a new member, I hope you enjoy your stay in the forum, and that it is benifical to you.

convert

Ok, but would you please care you elaborate?, you could do this by telling us what way of life you have; as you mention "other" in your profile. This could support your claims.

Peace, hopeing to see more of you :D

[ragdollcat1982]

So breaking it down a person who doesn't accept Islam doesn't have a chance A person who does has a chance

So Jews and Christians go to Hell? Even though I live a Godly life I am going to burn in Hell? I am not trying to start anything, I am just dumbfounded.

[Zico]

I really don't care which, even though I'm a born muslim, but people got to keep this in mind that repetition on new muslims as being converts or reverts, whatever rocks your boat, should immediatly stop and ask yourself till when are they going to be called a convert or a revert and start to be called muslims instead?

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings,

So Jews and Christians go to Hell?

Well that depends on what your definition is of a christian, because if it means one who follows in the way of christ aka Jesus PBUH, then they have a chance obviously in heaven, as they do good deeds. In Islam you have to follow God, and what the prophets have commanded; which were commanded by God that is.

Even though I live a Godly life

That could be your ticket to heaven, God is all forgiven.

I am going to burn in Hell?

Well first off the word "burn" well i am not sure of that, secondly only God knows that answer.

I am not trying to start anything, I am just dumbfounded.

In not trying to start anything you mean an "argument" but let me tell you this, my respone is not there to discourage you from responsing back, we should talk; this way we can get others to the what people think is the "right path"; whether that being correct or not, can only be found through dialouge.

Peace, and i dont think we have met before so i would like to say hope you are doing well.

[ragdollcat1982]

Greetings,














In not trying to start anything you mean an "argument" but let me tell you this, my respone is not there to discourage you from responsing back, we should talk; this way we can get others to the what people think is the "right path"; whether that being correct or not, can only be found through dialouge.

Peace, and i dont think we have met before so i would like to say hope you are doing well.

Nice to meet you, I just did not want to offend anyone I did not think you were trying to start an argument. I do not believe God sends people to Hell I believe people do that themselves by living the wrong kind of life , making the wrong choices and above all else not worshipping God.

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings Ragdoll,

Nice to meet you, I just did not want to offend anyone I did not think you were trying to start an argument. I do not believe God sends people to Hell I believe people do that themselves by living the wrong kind of life , making the wrong choices and above all else not worshipping God.

Its great to have a person like you on this forum, I also do agree with what you have stated above; "its you whos makes the decision on wheter you go to heaven or no",

Peace, talk to you soon.

[Rabi'ya]

Is a point here not to remember that even people who call themselves "Muslims" can be destined for Hell too. We need to do the best we can and never be satisfied that we have done enough.

[Ali_Cena]

:sl:

Is a point here not to remember that even people who call themselves "Muslims" can be destined for Hell too. We need to do the best we can and never be satisfied that we have done enough.

Yes sister, I mean muslim by definition; as you know, means one who surrenders thier will to Almighty Allah, so you can call yourself muslim, but your not really abiding with the definition of it, so ultimatly you arent a muslim.

:w:

[Yanal]

We should always strive for much more and never let pride stay with us. Ameen.

Btw How is our Runescape account ?

[Ali_Cena]

We should always strive for much more and never let pride stay with us. Ameen.

Btw How is our Runescape account ?

l0l off-topic but ill carry on :D its ok, I mean i got a lot of revision; so not willing to play, when exams are over, thinking of starting membership, and also i got the botting equipment ready, so i will probabily do a skill to 99 aswell.

Peace, how is Monk Shakur doing?

[Yanal]

Pretty neutral,ok InshAllah I got exams so...we will play after.

[suffiyan007]

convert or revert is the same duty to serve allah...because we are all just human....and needs to find our God....happy always....pray to God and etc...

[Esther462]

I'm a revert as all my friends call me that.:bump1:

[NoorInaya]

Asalaamu Alaikam,

I prefer the term revert, and actually it makes my skin crawl a bit when people insist on using the term "convert." Why do I prefer revert to convert?

Well.....

Because Islam teaches us that long before any of us were ever born, Allah created every single soul in the world, and we were all gathered in a single place. We were all created as MUSLIMS (meaning, "those who submit to God"). There was no concept of "Christian," "Jew," "Hindu," "atheist," etc. There was only Muslim, in the purest sense of the word (again, as "one who submits," not as "one who follows the religion known as Islam.").

We say that Adam (as) was Muslim, because he submitted to the will of Allah. We say that every prophet that came before Muhammad (saws) was Muslim, because they all submitted to the will of Allah.

Islam teaches us that we were all born as "Muslims," but society made us as other things. Our parents raised us in different religions (or no religion), but that did not change how we were born. The way you grow up does not change the way in which you were born.

When we become Muslim, we are actually returning to something that we once were. The term "revert" means "to change back." The term "convert" means simply "to change." We are not just changing, we are changing BACK. We are returning to the way of life that Allah intended us to live. We are reverting, not converting.

When a Hindu becomes Christian, he is converting, because he was not born as a Christian. When he becomes a Muslim, he is reverting, because we was born as a Muslim.

Also, the term "convert" seems way to synonymous with weights and measures. "Convert inches into centimeters," or "convert liters into ounces." Do we wish to use a term that is so strongly associated with weights and measures to describe our coming to Islam?

Just something to think about......

wasalaamz,

PS I know that it was a reversion for me when I came to Islam for the simple fact that I started feeling about God the same way I did as a 5 and 6 yr old girl, and I understood that there was only one God, and I could talk to God directly (no intercessor required). Islam held the simplicity that I felt as a child. I was reverting back to what I knew then (but had forgotten along the way).

[Salahudeen]

^i agree everyone is born as a Muslim upon the pure fitra, this is why when a child see's an indecently dressed women on the t.v he goes EWWW or see's a man and women haraam kissing he goes "yuck" cos they're still upon the pure nature that allah created them on. How else does a child know that these things are bad. it's as they get older their mentality changes due to parents and society.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Because Islam teaches us that long before any of us were ever born, Allah created every single soul in the world, and we were all gathered in a single place.

That's very interesting - I've never heard about this before.

Does anyone have any more information about this specific teaching?

Peace

[Uthman]

Hi czg

That's very interesting - I've never heard about this before.

Does anyone have any more information about this specific teaching?

The teaching is actually from the Qur'an itself.

And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring) and made them testify as to themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes! We testify," lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Verily, we have been unaware of this."Or lest you should say: "It was only our fathers afortime who took others as partners in worship along with Allâh, and we were (merely their) descendants after them; will You then destroy us because of the deeds of men who practised Al-Bâtil (i.e. polytheism and committing crimes and sins, invoking and worshipping others besides Allâh)?" (Tafsir At-Tabarî). Thus do We explain the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail, so that they may turn (unto the truth).

~ (7:172-174)

Regards

[czgibson]

Greetings,

And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring) and made them testify as to themselves (saying): "Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes! We testify," lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection: "Verily, we have been unaware of this."Or lest you should say: "It was only our fathers afortime who took others as partners in worship along with Allâh, and we were (merely their) descendants after them; will You then destroy us because of the deeds of men who practised Al-Bâtil (i.e. polytheism and committing crimes and sins, invoking and worshipping others besides Allâh)?" (Tafsir At-Tabarî). Thus do We explain the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail, so that they may turn (unto the truth).

~ (7:172-174)

I'm struggling to make sense of this text. Are we to understand that "the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring)" means every single soul in the world?

Peace

[heno9]

that make us give thanks to Allah that we borned muslims

[heno9]

I'm a revert as all my friends call me that.:bump1:

this is said to our prophet also in his begining but you must know that they know you are right but they couldnt do like you

[NoorInaya]

Greetings,


I'm struggling to make sense of this text. Are we to understand that "the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring)" means every single soul in the world?

Peace

Yes. We are all the children of Adam. We are all descended from Adam, since he was the first man created. Regardless of our religion or creed, we all came from Adam.

You will find this also in Christian doctrine, btw.

[Uthman]

Greetings czg,

I'm struggling to make sense of this text. Are we to understand that "the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam's loin his offspring)" means every single soul in the world?

Indeed. This meaning is made explicit and clarified by the following authentic hadeeth:

At-Tirmidhi recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«لَمَّا خَلَقَ اللهُ آدَمَ مَسَحَ ظَهْرَهُ فَسَقَطَ مِنْ ظَهْرِهِ كُلُّ نَسَمَةٍ هُوَ خَالِقُهَا مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِهِ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ عَيْنَي كَلِّ إِنْسَانٍ مِنْهُمْ وَبِيصًا مِنْ نُورٍ ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى آدَمَ فَقَالَ: أَيْ رَبِّ مَنْ هؤُلَاءِ؟ قَالَ: هؤُلَاءِ ذُرِّيَّتُكَ فَرَأَىَ رَجُلًا مِنْهُمْ فَأَعْجَبَهُ وَبِيصُ مَا بَيْنَ عَيْنَيْهِ قَالَ: أَيْ رَبِّ مَنْ هَذَا؟ قَالَ: هَذَا رَجُلٌ مِنْ آخِرِ الْأُمَمِ مِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِكَ يُقَالُ لَهُ دَاوُدُ قَالَ:رَبِّ وَكَمْ جَعَلْتَ عُمْرَهُ؟ قَالَ: سِتِّينَ سَنَةً، قَالَ: أَيْ رَبِّ وَقَدْ وَهَبْتُ لَهُ مِنْ عُمْرِي أَرْبَعِينَ سَنَةً فَلَمَّا انْقَضَى عُمْرُ آدَمَ جَاءَهُ مَلَكُ الْمَوْتِ قَالَ: أَوَ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنْ عُمْرِي أَرْبَعُونَ سَنَةً قَالَ: أَوَ لَمْ تُعْطِهَا ابْنَكَ دَاوُدَ؟ قَالَ: فَجَحَدَ آدَمُ فَجَحَدَتْ ذُرِّيَّتُهُ وَنَسِيَ آدَمُ فَنِسَيتْ ذُرِّيَّتُهُ وَخَطِىءَ آدَمُ فَخَطِئَتْ ذُرِّيَّتُه»

When Allah created Adam, He wiped Adam's back and every person that He will create from him until the Day of Resurrection fell out from his back. Allah placed a glimmering light between the eyes of each one of them. Allah showed them to Adam and Adam asked, `O Lord! Who are they' Allah said, `These are your offspring.' Adam saw a man from among them whose light he liked. He asked, `O Lord! Who is this man' Allah said, `This is a man from the latter generations of your offspring. His name is Dawud.' Adam said, `O Lord! How many years would he live' Allah said, `Sixty years.' Adam said, `O Lord! I have forfeited forty years from my life for him.' When Adam's life came to an end, the angel of death came to him (to take his soul). Adam said, `I still have forty years from my life term, don't I' He said, `Have you not given it to your son Dawud' So Adam denied that and his offspring followed suit (denying Allah's covenant), Adam forgot and his offspring forgot, Adam made a mistake and his offspring made mistakes.) At-Tirmidhi said, "This Hadith is Hasan Sahih, and it was reported from various chains of narration through Abu Hurayrah from the Prophet ''. Al-Hakim also recorded it in his Mustadrak, and said; "Sahih according to the criteria of Muslim, and they did not record it.'' These and similar Hadiths testify that Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored, brought forth Adam's offspring from his loins and separated between the inhabitants of Paradise and those of the Fire.

Regards

[Somaiyah]

Salam,
I have always said I am a convert because I've been an active Christian for several years before I converted to Islam. But at the same time I feel that we're all born Muslims and then we can leave Islam and stuff like that so I am not sure... Until I change my mind inshallah I will still call myself a convert.

[MuhammadRizan]

i'm a born muslim..so r u guys actually want to be call a name like that?

[IAmZamzam]

I personally don't believe that these semantics are of any importance.

[Jess4491]

salam all :)

i voted revert, simply because i believe the term "reverting back" makes more sense, however if someone prefers to say convert then it does not bother me :)

[Jess4491]

^i agree everyone is born as a Muslim upon the pure fitra, this is why when a child see's an indecently dressed women on the t.v he goes EWWW or see's a man and women haraam kissing he goes "yuck" cos they're still upon the pure nature that allah created them on. How else does a child know that these things are bad. it's as they get older their mentality changes due to parents and society.

Ive never really thought about that to be honest, and that makes alot of sense jazak'Allah for mentioning that point. :)