Hadeeth Help

Hassan'76ers · Apr 15, 2009

See I have a friend(muslim) but he does not believe in the hadeeth. He argues that it was not around Mohammed SAW and that Mohammed SAW told people to not keep a documents of what he said. He also goes on that people made the hadeeth "decades" after the prophet SAW died.He also goes on that the hadeeth cannot be 100% trusted like the Noble Quran because the intereprtation can be changed over time...

What can I say to him to get him to belive in the hadeeth like the ones in Muslim and Bukhari. Can someone debunk his claims?

'Abd-al Latif · Apr 15, 2009

Basic rule of thumb: The one who says such a thing has no knowledge of hadith at all and is ignorant of Islamic knowledge as well as Islamic history.

The Deviation of those who are satisfied with The Qur'an to the exclusion of Hadeeth: http://www.islamicboard.com/methodo...se-who-satisfied-quran-exclusion-hadeeth.html

The Status of Sunnah in Islaam: http://www.islamicboard.com/methodology/134273136-status-sunnah-islaam.html

Hadeeth were actually written down by the sahaba while the Prophet was alive and this is evident by certain ahadeeth. I recommend an excellent book called Usuool al-hadeeth by Bilal philips which talks about the presevation of hadeeth from the very time the Prophet (saw) was alive.

'Abd-al Latif · Apr 15, 2009

Usool Al-Hadeeth by Yasir Qadhi

Usul al-Hadith - Part 01
Usul al-Hadith - Part 02
Usul al-Hadith - Part 03
Usul al-Hadith - Part 04
Usul al-Hadith - Part 05
Usul al-Hadith - Part 06

'Abd-al Latif · Apr 15, 2009

Excerpts from the book Part 1

Compilation of Hadeeth Part 1 of 5

1. Era of The Prophet

During the life of the Prophet (saws) there was no pressing need to write down all of his various statements or record his actions because he was present and could be consulted at any time. As a matter of fact, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) himself made a general prohibition against writing down his statements which were other than the Qur’aan itself.[1] This was to prevent the possibility of mixing up the Qur’aan with his own words during the era of revelation. Consequently, the greatest stress regarding writing was placed on recording the Qur’aanic verses. However, there are many authentic narrations collected by the Scholars of Hadeeth that prove that Hadeeth were recorded in writing even during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

For example, ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Amr said: “I used to write everything which I heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings be upon him) with the intention of memorizing it. However, some Quray****es forbade me from doing so saying, ‘Do you write everything that you hear from him, while the Messenger of Allaah is a human being who speaks in anger and pleasure?’ So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). He pointed with his finger to his mouth and said: ‘Write! By Him in whose hand is my soul, only truth comes out from it.’ [2]

Aboo Hurayrah said: When Makkah was conquered, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stood up and gave a sermon [Aboo Hurayrah then mentioned the sermon]. A man from Yemen, called Aboo Shaah got up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Write it down for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings be upon him) replied, “Write it for Aboo Shaah.”[3] Al-Waleed asked Aboo ‘Amr, “What are they writing?” He replied, “The sermon which he heard that day.”[4]

Aboo Qaabeel said: We were with ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas and he was asked which city will be conquered first Constantinople or Rome? So ‘Abdullaah called for a sealed trunk and he said, “Take out the book from it.” Then ‘Abdullaah said, “While we were with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings be upon him) writing, The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings be upon him) was asked, “Which city will be conquered first, Constantinople or Rome?” So Allaah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The city of Heracilius will be conquered first,” meaning Constantinople.”[5]
__________________________________________________________
footnotes
1 Saheeh Muslim, zuhd, 72. This is the only authentic hadeeth on the topic and al-Bukhaaree and others considered it to be a statement of Aboo Sa‘eed himself that was erroneously attributed to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). See Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, p. 28.

2 Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1035, no. 3639 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan Abee Daawood, no. 3099. The collection of Hadeeth of ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Amr is known as as-Saheefah as-Saadiqah.

3 Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, no. 3641 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan Abee Daawood, no. 3100.

4 Ibid., vol. 3 no. 3642 and authenticated Saheeh Sunan Abee Daawood, no. 3101.

5 Saheeh: Musnad Ahmad (2: 176), Sunan ad-Daarimee (1: 126) and Mustadrak al Haakim (3:422).

(Taken from Usool al-Hadeeth ‘The Methodology of Hadeeth Evaluation’ by Dr.Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips)

'Abd-al Latif · Apr 15, 2009

Compilation of Hadeeth Part 2 of 5

2. Era of The Sahaabah

After the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) his saying and action took of a new importance because he was no longer there to consult when problems arose. The practise of narration on a large scale started during this period. For example, when the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) died, the Sahaabah debated about where to bury him. This debate ended when Aboo Bakr told them “I heard the messenger say, “No prophet dies but he is buried where he died.”[7] Thus a grave was dug immediately below the bed on which he died in the house of ‘Aa’ishah. In this period a number of the leading Sahaabah wrote down hadeeths of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

The following are just a few of the leading narrators of the Prophet’s traditions who were known to have recorded them in writing.

Aboo Hurayrah to whom 5374 channels of hadeeth narrations are attributed, actually narrated 1236 hadeeth. Hasan in ‘Amr ad-Damaree saw many books in his possession.[8]

‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Abbaas to whom 1660 channels of narrations are attributed used to write whatever he heard[9] and even employed his slaves to record for him.[10]

‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al- ‘Aas to whom 700 channels are attributed was know to recorded books of hadeeths during the Prophet’s lifetime with he titled as-Saheefah as-Saheehah.

Aboo Bakr was reported to have written down over 500 different sayings of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Ibn al-Jawzee, who provides a list of all the companions who related traditions, gives the names of about 1,060 together with the number of hadeeths related by each.
500 related only 1 hadeeth each;
132 related only 2 each;
80 related 3;
52 related 4;
32 related 5;
26 related 6;
27 related 7;
18 related 8;
11 related 9;
60 related between 10 and 20;
84 related between 20 and 100;
27 related between 100 and 500
and only 11 related more than 500
of which only 6 related more than 1,000 hadeeth, and they are commonly referred to as the mukaththiroon (the reporters of many traditions).
Today, a graduate of the college of hadeeth in the
Islamic University of Madeenah is required to memorize 250 hadeeth during each of the four years of his study (i.e., a total of 1,000 hadeeths).
From the above, it can readily be seen that fewer than 300 companions related the vast majority of traditions.[11]
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footnotes.

7 The Life of Muhammad, p. 688.
8 Fat’h al-Baaree, vol.1, p. 217.
9 Tabaqaat ibn Sa‘d, vol. 2, p. 123.
10 Tarateeb, by al-Kattaanee, vol. 2, no. 247.
11 Hadith Literature, pp. 18-19.

(Taken from Usool al-Hadeeth ‘The Methodology of Hadeeth Evaluation’ by Dr.Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips)

'Abd-al Latif · Apr 15, 2009

Compilation of Hadeeth Part 3 of 5

3. Era of The Taabi’oon (1st Century Hijrah)

After Islaam had spread into the Middle East, India, North Africa and the narration of hadeeth had become widespread, there arose people who began to invent hadeeths. To combat this development, Caliph Umar ibn Abdul-Azeez (reign 99 to 101 AH - 71 8 to 720 C.E.) ordered the scholars to compile the traditions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). The scholars had already begun composing books containing biographical data on the various narrators of hadeeth in order to expose the liars and fabricators. Aboo Bakr ibn Hazm (d.120/737) was among those directed by the Caliph to compile the hadeeth. Caliph Umar requested him to write down all the hadeeths of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) and to pay particular attention to gathering the hadeeths of ‘Amrah bint ‘Abdir-Rahmaan, who was at that time the most respected custodian of the narrations of ‘Aa’ishah. Sa‘d ibn Ibraaheem and Ibn Shihaab az-Zuhri were also requested to compile books and az-Zuhri became the first compiler of hadeeth to record the biographies of the narrators with particular reference to their character and honesty. In this period the systematic compilation of hadeeths was begun on a fairly wide scale.

However, among the students of the companions, many recorded hadeeths and collected them in books. The following is a list of the top 12 narrators of hadeeths among the Prophet’s companions and their students who had their narrations in written form.

Aboo Hurayrah (5374)13: Nine of his students were recorded to have written hadeeths from him.

Ibn Umar (2630): Eight of his students wrote down hadeeths from him.

Anas ibn Maalik (2286): Sixteen of his students had hadeeths in written form from him.

‘Aa’ishah bint Abee Bakr (2210): Three of her students had her hadeeths in written form.

Ibn ‘Abbaas (1660): Nine of his students recorded his hadeeths in books.

Jaabir ibn ‘Abdillaah (1540): Fourteen of his students wrote down his hadeeths.

Aboo Sa‘eed al-Khudree (1170): None of his students wrote.

Ibn Mas‘ood (748): None of his students wrote.

‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (700): Seven of his students had his hadeeths in written form.

‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (537): He recorded many hadeeths in official letters.

‘Alee ibn Abee Taalib (536): Eight of his students recorded his hadeeths in writing.

Aboo Moosaa al-Ash‘aree (360): Some of his hadeeths were in the possession of Ibn ‘Abbaas in written from.

Al-Barraa ibn ‘Aazib (305): Was known to have dictated his narrations.

These are the total number of hadeeths or more properly, channels of narration of hadeeth ascribed to the companions above.

Of Aboo Hurayrah’s nine students known to have written hadeeths, Hammaam ibn Munabbih’s book has survived in manuscript form and has been edited by Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah and published in 1961 in Hyderabad, India.[14]

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Footnotes

14 Studies in Early Hadith Literature, p. 38.

(Taken from Usool al-Hadeeth ‘The Methodology of Hadeeth Evaluation’ by Dr.Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips)

'Abd-al Latif · Apr 15, 2009

Compilation of Hadeeth Part 4 of 5

4. Era of The Taabi‘ut-Taabi‘een(2nd Century)

In the period following that of the Taabi’oon, the hadeeths were systematically collected and written in texts. One of the earliest works was al-Muwatta composed by Maalik ibn Anas. Other books of hadeeth were also written by scholars of Maalik’s time by the likes of al-Awzaa‘i who lived in Syria, ‘Abdullah ibn al-Mubarak of Khurasan, Hammaad ibn Salamah of Basrah and Sufyaan ath-Thawri of Kufah. However, the only work which survived from that time is that of Imaam Maalik. It could be said that in this period the majority of the hadeeths were collected in the various centers of Islaam.

The reason why these three generations have been given special
consideration is because the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was reported to have said, “The best of generations is my generation, then the one which follows them, then the one that follows them.” It was through these three generations that hadeeth was first transmitted orally and in writing, until they were compiled into collections on a wide and a systematic scale.

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(Taken from Usool al-Hadeeth ‘The Methodology of Hadeeth Evaluation’ by Dr.Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips)

'Abd-al Latif · Apr 15, 2009

Compilation of Hadeeth Part 5 of 5

5. Era of The Saheehs (3rd Century Hijrah)

There arose in the third century scholars who undertook the job of critical research of the hadeeths that were narrated and compiled in the first two centuries. They also grouped the hadeeth which they considered to be accurate according to the branches of Islaamic Law. E.g. From this period is the book Saheeh al-Bukhaaree containing 7,275 hadeeth which al-Bukhaaree (died- 870 C.E.) chose from 600,000 and Saheeh Muslim which contains 9,200 hadeeths which Imaam Muslim selected from 300,000. Besides these two works of Hadeeth, there are four other works which became famous during this period. They are the four sunan of Aboo Dawud (died 889 C.E.), at-Tirmithee (died 893 C.E.), an-Nasaa’ee (died 916 C.E.) and Ibn Maajah (died 908 C.E.).

Stages of writing

1. The first stage covers the period of the first century A.H. which began in July 622 C.E. or the early part of the century C.E. It was the age of the companions and their successors often referred to as the age of the Saheefah, that is, a sheet or some sort of writing material such as shoulder blades or parchments on which a number of hadeeth were written. E.g. Saheefah Aboo Bakr and Saheefah Saadiqah of ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Amr. The aim of the first stage was mainly recording the hadeeth without any particular format.

2. The second period covers the middle of the second century A.H. is referred to as the stage of Musannaf (i.e. classified organized work). The second stage represents a planned compilation of hadeeth grouped under headings denoting their subject matter. E.g. Muwatta Maalik

3. The third stage known as the stage of Musnad (compilation of hadeeth according to the companion’s names). This stage began at the close of second century A.H. e.g. Musnad Ahmad.

4. The fourth and most important stage is known as the stage of Saheeh. This stage began during the first half of the third century A.H. (9th century C.E.) and overlaps the period of the musnad e.g. Saheeh al-Bukhaaree, Saheeh Muslim and Saheeh Ibn Khuzaymah.

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(Taken from Usool al-Hadeeth ‘The Methodology of Hadeeth Evaluation’ by Dr.Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips)

Hassan'76ers · Apr 15, 2009

Salam

'Abd-al Latif Jazkallah for all your help , I my self am readings this as well! , inshallah tomorrow I will show him this and see what he says. Thank you again Brother!

Ibn Abi Ahmed · Apr 15, 2009

Mohammed SAW told people to not keep a documents of what he said.

Ask him why he's picking and choosing? If he believes the Prophet (saw) told people not to keep documents of what he said, tell him where does it say that in the Qur'an? It doesn't, what he is doing is believing in a hadeeth that he wants to believe in. He's is picking and choosing what to believe, he's being selective in what he wants to accept because it suits his desires and is rejecting that which doesn't. Then after pointing his double standard out, ask him why is he choosing to take that one hadeeth without context?

Just realize that these arguments are the same 2-3 arguments that they bring which have been refuted over and over. You can take a look at this post which addresses a couple of them:

http://www.islamicboard.com/331596-post47.html

And the rest of the thread as well insha'Allaah for more pointers on how to respond to their claims.

Hassan'76ers · Apr 28, 2009

Can the admin/mod please let JayZ post his thought/questions/comments
its an open forum, if it is offensive to some than maybe we can correct it?

jayz · Apr 28, 2009

Thank you Brother Hassan, I will post this for you again.

Assalam wu alaikum,

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds, the beneficent, the Merciful.

My brothers and sisters in Islam, we have touched on a sensitive topic.
You can't force an individual who reads the qu'ran and obeys Allah's command in the qu'ran to follow the Hadeeth.

I can see why he chooses not to follow the Hadeeth.
In the Qu'ran, Allah guarantees the protection of the Qu'ran.
Also mentions the 3 other books, but weren't protected by Allah.

The Hadeeth has no mention in the Qu'ran and what everyone who posted in favour of the Hadeeth only posted points from Hadeeths and no real education on Islam's history.
Islam's histoy is much greater than the last prophet, the religion Islam has been sent down since day one from Adam A.S. The Qu'ran ranges from Adam A.S. to Mohummad A.S.

The Hadeeth has a huge range of topics and new hadeeths are discouvered everyday.

I've had read many Hadeeths and I ask all of you not to choose and pick items from the Hadeeth to follow and call yourself muslims.
If you actually want to follow the sunnah and the example of the prophet, please read and understand the Qu'ran.
I ask you to read and understand the Qu'ran before you try to infest a childs mind by forcing the hadeeths onto him.

Allah will punish you if you force the hadeeth on his friend.
Since the Qu'ran is the only true word and example of how the prophet lived his daily life.

We can count on onething,

If you deny the Qu'ran, then Allah will punish you.
If you deny the Hadeeth, you won't be punished by Allah.

If you accept the Qu'ran, then Allah will help you along the straight path.
If you accept the Hadeeth, most likely Allah won't help you along the straight path because you don't know if it's right 100%. Since Allah hasn't guaranteed protection for it.

I'm not here to make enemies of anyone, but just trying to educate the Ummah.

Walaikum Assalam

Ibn Abi Ahmed · Apr 28, 2009

Hassan'76ers said:
Can the admin/mod please let JayZ post his thought/questions/comments
its an open forum, if it is offensive to some than maybe we can correct it?

The reason I deleted is because it is merely a repetition of the same arguments on the thread I linked you to. It is unbeneficial to have the same topics rehashed over and over when the anti-hadeeth side cannot come through with a single logical (text-based or otherwise) argument.

However, because you're the thread starter I'll let him post this and respond to the same doubts contained therein.

jayz said:
You can't force an individual who reads the qu'ran and obeys Allah's command in the qu'ran to follow the Hadeeth.

We don't have to force anything on anyone, Allaah clearly commanded following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) in the Qur'an. The Sunnah is preserved in the ahadeeth. 1+1=2.

I can see why he chooses not to follow the Hadeeth.
In the Qu'ran, Allah guarantees the protection of the Qu'ran.
Also mentions the 3 other books, but weren't protected by Allah.

He promises protection of the 'dhikr', and unless you can prove that 'dhikr' is exclusive to the Qur'an, you have no argument.

The Hadeeth has no mention in the Qu'ran and what everyone who posted in favour of the Hadeeth only posted points from Hadeeths and no real education on Islam's history.

You are playing with semantics. Hadeeth, athaar and other words can be used to refer to the same thing. Therefore, by trying to justify ahadeeth rejection by using as scapegoat the term 'hadeeth' you are further proving your own ignorance of Arabic.

Islam's histoy is much greater than the last prophet, the religion Islam has been sent down since day one from Adam A.S. The Qu'ran ranges from Adam A.S. to Mohummad A.S.

This is irrelevant.

The Hadeeth has a huge range of topics

This is a proof for the ahadeeth and not against it. It is precisily why the ahadeeth are the second source of legislation. The Qur'an being a book of guiadance gives only outlines, the details of rules and legislations are found in the ahadeeth. This is why the life of the Prophet (saw) is so important, as Allaah saysin Surah an-Nahl, ayat 44: "nd We revealed to you the message that you may make clear [Li TUBAYYINA] to the people what was sent down to them..."

That is, the Prophet's (saw) job according to the Qur'an - making clear to the people the Qur'an. This obviously only points to the ahadeeth.

and new hadeeths are discouvered everyday.

False.

I've had read many Hadeeths and I ask all of you not to choose and pick items from the Hadeeth to follow and call yourself muslims.

This makes no sense.

If you actually want to follow the sunnah and the example of the prophet, please read and understand the Qu'ran.

Who are you to legislate in the religion and tell us what is truly following the Prophet?! You have no such authority.

I ask you to read and understand the Qu'ran before you try to infest a childs mind by forcing the hadeeths onto him.

And you've suddenly gained a thorough understanding of the Qur'an 1400 years after it was revealed?! That is a claim that is at most laughable. Your argument for hadeeth-rejection keeps falling into pitfalls. At least come up with something substantial enough that's actually worth refuting.

Allah will punish you if you force the hadeeth on his friend.

Does it say in the Qur'an that if we follow the way of the Prophet (saw), Allaah will punish us? You need to stop making up lies against Allaah.

Since the Qu'ran is the only true word and example of how the prophet lived his daily life.

Show me from the Qur'an how the Prophet (saw) prayed.

If you deny the Hadeeth, you won't be punished by Allah.

Please stop making up lies against Allaah.

If you accept the Qu'ran, then Allah will help you along the straight path.

Of course, that is why the Muslim Ummah is unanimous for 1400+ years that the Sunnah and Ahadeeth are the second source of legislation. You're the one that's leaving all that an inventing your own religion that lacks any basis, except your own whims.

If you accept the Hadeeth, most likely Allah won't help you along the straight path because you don't know if it's right 100%. Since Allah hasn't guaranteed protection for it.

Actually we do know which ahadeeth are authentic and which are not by the same exact process by which we know that the Qur'an is authentic. The Qur'an went through the same preservation process as the Ahadeeth via isnaads.

And again, Allaah promised protection of the 'dhikr', and you have to prove conclusively that it refers exclusively to the Qur'an., which if you'll read the other thread I linked to in my previous post, the other ahadeeth rejecters failed to do.

I'm not here to make enemies of anyone, but just trying to educate the Ummah.

Walaikum Assalam

You can educate the Ummah by educating yourself first.

:w:

Yanal · Apr 28, 2009

If you believe in the Prophet ,you must first believe in his sayings.

ZeroBlade · Apr 28, 2009

Assalam u alaikum, first of all ur argument if contradictory
Quote:
and new hadeeths are discouvered everyday.

False.

ok this is fine right now

Quote:
If you accept the Hadeeth, most likely Allah won't help you along the straight path because you don't know if it's right 100%. Since Allah hasn't guaranteed protection for it.

Actually we do know which ahadeeth are authentic and which are not by the same exact process by which we know that the Qur'an is authentic. The Qur'an went through the same preservation process as the Ahadeeth via isnaads

alright now this is where is goes tricky brother, if they arent authentic then technically people can make new hadeeth and misguide our muslim brothers, therefore by induction the first comment is not false

ZeroBlade · Apr 28, 2009

i dont know how to quote sorry brothers

Yanal · Apr 28, 2009

On quick reply click the last icon to the right the thing that looks like a chatbox.

jayz · Apr 28, 2009

Assalam wualaikum,

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
We don't have to force anything on anyone, Allaah clearly commanded following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) in the Qur'an. The Sunnah is preserved in the ahadeeth. 1+1=2.
:

That makes no sense, Allah commands us to follow the Prophet. Which is correct, but lets try to be open minded and be at a higher understanding level. What the prophet did is what Allah commanded him to do. What Allah commanded him to do is what is in the Qu'ran thus for as proven Qu'ran is the way of life. Making ahadeeth incapable of standing against Allah's teaching and words.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
He promises protection of the 'dhikr', and unless you can prove that 'dhikr' is exclusive to the Qur'an, you have no argument.
:

Where does "He" promise protection of the "Dhikr". You can say a word without reference means nothing. I can argue the same for the bible, and other books sent down by god.

By Dhikr it is what Allah sent us, Allah sent us the Qu'ran through the prophet, while you send us ahadeeth through men. The prophet wasn't perfect so which man is?

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:

You are playing with semantics. Hadeeth, athaar and other words can be used to refer to the same thing. Therefore, by trying to justify ahadeeth rejection by using as scapegoat the term 'hadeeth' you are further proving your own ignorance of Arabic.
:

This shows how ignorant this individual is to the qu'ran. This man is clearly rejectign the Qu'ran by making no reference to it.
Do you eat sleep hadeeth?
Where are your Qu'ranic reference?

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
This is irrelevant.
:

We have a god among us, telling us what is relevant and what is not relevant.
I believe what I've said is all relevant.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
This is a proof for the ahadeeth and not against it. It is precisily why the ahadeeth are the second source of legislation. The Qur'an being a book of guiadance gives only outlines, the details of rules and legislations are found in the ahadeeth. This is why the life of the Prophet (saw) is so important, as Allaah saysin Surah an-Nahl, ayat 44: "nd We revealed to you the message that you may make clear [Li TUBAYYINA] to the people what was sent down to them..."
That is, the Prophet's (saw) job according to the Qur'an - making clear to the people the Qur'an. This obviously only points to the ahadeeth.
:

Surah - The Bee, ayat 44 stats: With Clear proofs and writings, and we have revealed unto thee the remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

Qu'ran is more than just a reference book, that you make it to be.
The Qu'ran is the way of life, do you understand what the Qu'ran is trying to say of ayat 44 and around it?

If the prophet was sent down to babysit then why isn't he still around to babysit us?

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
False.
:

It's true, there are so many hadeeths.. how do you know?
But then again you are god of this forum and you can delete my posts as you wish.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
This makes no sense.
:

It makes sense, "Ask him why he's picking and choosing" you clearly are picking and choosing and your not picking anything but one ayat from the Qu'ran.
This is your quote, i'm just using it against you.

ALSO there is a hadeeth, where the prophet ask his people not to write about what the prophet did, that is when he learnt of what was happening. So the people that listened asked him if they could write that and finish, and the last prophet approved and then it was done.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
Who are you to legislate in the religion and tell us what is truly following the Prophet?! You have no such authority.
:

Who has such an authority, you don't. We all know that here. It was made clear to alot of people when you started to delete my post with no reason and justification.
A little about me: I have successfully ran highschool prayers and speeches for different highschools in the Peel Board and one in University.
I can say this the best speechs are about Qu'ran and the dulest are about the Ahadeeths.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
And you've suddenly gained a thorough understanding of the Qur'an 1400 years after it was revealed?! That is a claim that is at most laughable. Your argument for hadeeth-rejection keeps falling into pitfalls. At least come up with something substantial enough that's actually worth refuting.
:

Funny how you make fun of the fact that I was born 1400 years after when the Qu'ran was revealed. You should be ashamed of yourself for that note.
On the second point, you know it is laughable to see you act so childly and try to run a forum. I have asked you to try to understand the Qu'ran and you laugh at me and throw hadeeths at me. I find it laughable.
I do have some good points but since your lack of Qu'ran knowledge makes you just laugh at them since the level of understanding between us is like the heaven and earth. Don't think the Hadeeth says you'll get to heaven by holding the Hadeeth while standing on the Qu'ran.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
Does it say in the Qur'an that if we follow the way of the Prophet (saw), Allaah will punish us? You need to stop making up lies against Allaah.
:

Sorry no lies are being made against Allah.
Stop trying to make yourself equal to Allah also.

The Qu'ran is the way of the prophet and Allah will punish us for teaching and manipulating children to follow the way of Satan.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
Show me from the Qur'an how the Prophet (saw) prayed.
:

As you gave Brother Hassan that forum link to the same two notion which hadeeth haters use. You use the same notion of people who reject the Qu'ran.
Prayer is something that is passed down generation to generation.
You wont give a new muslim the Hadeeth to read and the Qu'ran and 500000 other Hadeeths.
You'll show him how to pray by example of our forefathers and you'll give him the Qu'ran if he doesn't already have it.
People who become new muslims have read the Qu'ran and hardly ever question the word. Why do they understand better than us? That is the question you should be asking yourself.

BTW I answered his question up there.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
Please stop making up lies against Allaah.
:

What lies? I said you won't be punished by Allah if you follow the Hadeeth.. that is unless if it is the wrong Hadeeth that your following. Who can tell me what is right or wrong?

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
Of course, that is why the Muslim Ummah is unanimous for 1400+ years that the Sunnah and Ahadeeth are the second source of legislation. You're the one that's leaving all that an inventing your own religion.
:

I'm not creating anything new, what your following is new.. and scary.
Shia, Sunni, ******, Sufi.. I can name more.
but Brother, onething has stayed consistant since the beginning of dawn.
That is the stories and the ayat from the Qu'ran.
The religion which was started was brought together by the Qu'ran and what brought the religion apart was new entities such as the Hadeeths.
Why are muslims across the world so divided?
Dont say the Qu'ran. It's cause of the new entities like the Hadeeths.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
Actually we do know which ahadeeth are authentic and which are not by the same exact process by which we know that the Qur'an is authentic. The Qur'an went through the same preservation process as the Ahadeeth via isnaads.
:

Now you've done it, you put the Qu'ran on the same level as the Hadeeth.
May Allah open your eyes to the ignorant statment which you've put here.
The Qu'ran is at the highest level of anything. The Noble Qu'ran is most pure book given to us.
The Hadeeth, Bible and other 2 books are on the next level.
The Hadeeth is as pure as the Bible, since the bible and hadeeth went through the samething.

Dont ever say the Qu'ran went through the samething as the hadeeth.
That would be wrong in many levels.

'Abd al-Rahman said:
:
You can educate the Ummah by educating yourself first.
:

Only someone as ignorant would say something as that.
I do hope someone will help you understand what I'm saying for the better.

Walaikum Assalam

Ibn Abi Ahmed · Apr 28, 2009

:rollseyes This is why I didn't want to allow this to continue. It's turning into a repeat of the last thread and the conclusion will be the same.

jayz said:
Assalam wualaikum,

That makes no sense, Allah commands us to follow the Prophet. Which is correct, but lets try to be open minded and be at a higher understanding level. What the prophet did is what Allah commanded him to do. What Allah commanded him to do is what is in the Qu'ran thus for as proven Qu'ran is the way of life. Making ahadeeth incapable of standing against Allah's teaching and words.

What is open-minded and 'higher' understanding to you? Making up your own way?

Where does "He" promise protection of the "Dhikr". You can say a word without reference means nothing. I can argue the same for the bible, and other books sent down by god.

And I am ignorant of what the Qur'an says?! You know, let this be a little project for you. Open up the Qur'an, read it in Arabic and find where it says this. I won't spoon feed you.

By Dhikr it is what Allah sent us,

You have yet to provide proof that it 'dhikr' is exclusive to the Qur'an.

Allah sent us the Qu'ran through the prophet, while you send us ahadeeth through men. The prophet wasn't perfect so which man is?

Is the Qur'an preserved through some magical means or through men? Let's see what the Qur'an says:

{ Rather, the Qur'an is distinct verses within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge. }

So the Qur'an is preserved in the breasts of men? By your argument, the Qur'an should also be doubtful right? Hmm?

This shows how ignorant this individual is to the qu'ran. This man is clearly rejectign the Qu'ran by making no reference to it.

Erm..ok? I don't quite follow.

Do you eat sleep hadeeth?

Irrevlent. Please try to stick to the topic.

Where are your Qu'ranic reference?

For what? I already provided Surah 16:44 and am waiting for your reply.

We have a god among us, telling us what is relevant and what is not relevant.

This is a fallacy called ad-hominem. I.e. personal attacks. You fail to address my arguments and therefore resort to personally attacking me. It says more about you than anything.

I believe what I've said is all relevant.

Quite in contradiction to what you said above.

Surah - The Bee, ayat 44 stats: With Clear proofs and writings, and we have revealed unto thee the remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.

Yes, that's what I said. Now you have yet to respond to it.

Qu'ran is more than just a reference book, that you make it to be.
The Qu'ran is the way of life, do you understand what the Qu'ran is trying to say of ayat 44 and around it?

It is a book who's purpose is to guide people, as it says so itself. It does not take it upon itself to explain all the intricate details of Islamic Law in it.

If the prophet was sent down to babysit then why isn't he still around to babysit us?

This is a new one. Congratulations for coming up with something original.

As for why he isn't here, then he (saw) does not need to be here because he has done his duty of passing on the message and explaining the Qur'an, which we find in his sunnah.

It's true, there are so many hadeeths.. how do you know?

By a science known as Mustalah al-Hadeeth.

But then again you are god of this forum and you can delete my posts as you wish.

Ad-hominem.

It makes sense, "Ask him why he's picking and choosing" you clearly are picking and choosing and your not picking anything but one ayat from the Qu'ran.

Do you want me to quote more and more? I can do so, but seeing as how you've failed to respond to one, I doubt it'll help you.

This is your quote, i'm just using it against you.

And I fail to see what purpose that has served.

ALSO there is a hadeeth, where the prophet ask his people not to write about what the prophet did, that is when he learnt of what was happening. So the people that listened asked him if they could write that and finish, and the last prophet approved and then it was done.

Who has such an authority, you don't. We all know that here. It was made clear to alot of people when you started to delete my post with no reason and justification.

I stated my reason for deleting your posts. You can refer to the older thread.

A little about me: I have successfully ran highschool prayers and speeches for different highschools in the Peel Board and one in University.
I can say this the best speechs are about Qu'ran and the dulest are about the Ahadeeths.

Ok?! That is your basis for rejecting ahdeeth? That YOU find those speeches boring? Your feelings are irrelevent here.

Funny how you make fun of the fact that I was born 1400 years after when the Qu'ran was revealed. You should be ashamed of yourself for that note.

Sorry? I made fun? Please point that out to me? I was pointing out the absurdity of your claim that you have a new thorough understanding of the Qur'an after 1400 years. It is after all a laughable claim that no one will take seriously.

On the second point, you know it is laughable to see you act so childly and try to run a forum. I have asked you to try to understand the Qu'ran and you laugh at me and throw hadeeths at me. I find it laughable.

This discussion is not about this forum or how I run it. Please stick to the discussion or I'm going to assume you have nothing more to say and close this thread.

I do have some good points but since your lack of Qu'ran knowledge makes you just laugh at them since the level of understanding between us is like the heaven and earth.

Shall I refer to you as Shaykh al-Islam now?

Don't think the Hadeeth says you'll get to heaven by holding the Hadeeth while standing on the Qu'ran.

???

Sorry no lies are being made against Allah.
Stop trying to make yourself equal to Allah also.

Why did you avoid my question? Please answer it in your next post:

Does it say in the Qur'an that if we follow the way of the Prophet (saw), Allaah will punish us?

The Qu'ran is the way of the prophet and Allah will punish us for teaching and manipulating children to follow the way of Satan.

This is a logical fallacy called petitio principii. You are assuming what you have yet to prove - that is that the Qur'an is the only way of the Prophet.

As you gave Brother Hassan that forum link to the same two notion which hadeeth haters use. You use the same notion of people who reject the Qu'ran.

I fail to understand this.

Prayer is something that is passed down generation to generation.

If this were true, what makes Islam different from Christianity - which to is simply "something that is passed down generation to generation."

You wont give a new muslim the Hadeeth to read and the Qu'ran and 500000 other Hadeeths.

Irrelevant to this discussion. Please try and stick to the topic.

You'll show him how to pray by example of our forefathers and you'll give him the Qu'ran if he doesn't already have it.

So when you give him the Qur'an, tell me which verses will you show him that will tell him how to pray?

People who become new muslims have read the Qu'ran and hardly ever question the word. Why do they understand better than us? That is the question you should be asking yourself.

What lies? I said you won't be punished by Allah if you follow the Hadeeth.. that is unless if it is the wrong Hadeeth that your following. Who can tell me what is right or wrong?

Any educated person who has learned the intricate process of Mustalah al-Hadeeth. You are ignorant of the sciences of classification and therefre assume that they are flawed which is leading you to question how the ahadeeth are classified. Rather then adopting an attitutude of arrogance, you can sit down and learn the science yourself. What's stopping you?

I'm not creating anything new, what your following is new.. and scary.
Shia, Sunni, ******, Sufi.. I can name more.
but Brother, onething has stayed consistant since the beginning of dawn.
That is the stories and the ayat from the Qu'ran.
The religion which was started was brought together by the Qu'ran and what brought the religion apart was new entities such as the Hadeeths.
Why are muslims across the world so divided?
Dont say the Qu'ran. It's cause of the new entities like the Hadeeths.

This is actually a question that would require a long explanation. In a nutshell, it is because people have strayed from the Qur'an AND the Sunnah of the Prophet. The greatest proof for this is that there were not any sectarian differences amongst the Companions, they had differences related to jurisprudence and that is allowed under Islamic Law, but the kind of sectarianism you're highlighting was non-existant at the time.

Now you've done it, you put the Qu'ran on the same level as the Hadeeth.

Why don't you actually respond to what I'm saying with a counter argument instead of going off on emotional tangents?

Indeed the Qur'an is preserved through memorization as I proved earlier with the verse from Surah al-Ankaboot, JUST like the ahadeeth are preserved. To reject one is at the very least casting doubts on the other.

May Allah open your eyes to the ignorant statment which you've put here.
The Qu'ran is at the highest level of anything. The Noble Qu'ran is most pure book given to us.

Red-Herring.

The Hadeeth, Bible and other 2 books are on the next level.
The Hadeeth is as pure as the Bible, since the bible and hadeeth went through the samething.

Actually, the ahadeeth have sanad whilst the Bible doesn't. Do you know what an Isnad is?

Dont ever say the Qu'ran went through the samething as the hadeeth.
That would be wrong in many levels.

Why can you not give me a proper response? You're going on repeated emotional tangents that are completely irrelevant to the discussion. Are you unaware how discussions take place? You cannot expect to claim something and not have your view completely scrutinized. If you cannot handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Walaikum Assalam

Yanal · Apr 28, 2009

Brother Abd Al Rahman shall you do the honour of closing this thread which is going in a bad direction.

Btw I'm sorry I'll add the Walakum Asalam,jazakAllah Khayr for reminding me

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