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nebula
04-14-2009, 10:38 PM
Pakistan’s President Asif Ali Zardari has signed a law introducing Islamic ‘shariah’ law in the picturesque Swat valley in northwestern Pakistan in an attempt to end Taliban violence, but critics warn that it could encourage Taliban influence to spread further in the fragile country.

Lawmakers in the lower house of parliament on Monday unanimously approved a resolution paving the way to install Islamic law in courts in the Malakand region, of which Swat is the headquarters.

Mr Zardari immediately followed the parliamentary resolution by formally approving the law, agreed on between the government and Islamic militants in February to end months of intense fighting between the Pakistani military and Taliban militants.

However, critics denounced the law on the grounds that it would embolden the Taliban to demand similar ‘shariah’ Islamic law elsewhere outside Malakand.

“This step by the government will only embolden the Taliban movement in the sense that if they demand for something, the government concedes, and then they come back with more demands” said Asma Jehangir, a Pakistani human rights lawyer.

The agreement has attracted fresh controversy after a group of Pakistani human rights activists earlier this month released footage showing the Taliban publicly whipping a 17 -year old woman in Swat after she was accused of adultery. The incident sparked fresh debate over the Taliban’s particularly harsh brand of justice.

“If you are the Taliban and you believe in such public displays of harsh measures, you are then capable of doing anything, especially once you have legal cover” warned a western diplomat in Islamabad. “The danger is that these laws give cover to practices that have questionable legitimacy.”

However, a Pakistani government official said the deal was vital to bring peace to Swat as a prerequisite for the government re-establishing its control over the area. “This was a bitter pill that had to be swallowed in the long term interest of Swat and its surrounding region” said the official.


who would have thought!? mashallah, i hope pakistan has shariah Law all over!
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Dawud_uk
04-15-2009, 05:36 AM
:sl:

mashallah, this is excellent news and about time.

pakistan is definetely heading in the right direction, yes they'll probably make a few more mistakes along the way but excellent news and inshallah soon the whole of pakistan will be under the whole shariah system, not just the legal code part.
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saba muslimah
04-15-2009, 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

mashallah, this is excellent news and about time.

inshallah soon the whole of pakistan will be under the whole shariah system, not just the legal code part.
InshaAllah
:thumbs_up
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nebula
04-15-2009, 05:21 PM
Inshallah! :D
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burdenofbeing
04-17-2009, 01:50 AM
hmmm
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-17-2009, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
hmmm
yep..
Reply

GreyKode
04-17-2009, 12:23 PM
Hey wtp I thought you were ok with applying sharia as long as it is not in your country. :D
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Thinker
04-17-2009, 12:26 PM
A lot of people will suffer pain and many will die, the lives of many will become a misery and It'll all end in tears. And, the impact will be felt not just by those in the Swat valley and not just by those in the rest of Pakistan but by all Pakistanis all over the world because whether you like it or not and no matter how hard you shout about not being judged by the actions of a few fanatics, and no matter how unjust to you that might be, you will be so judged by their actions by the rest of the world.
Reply

Cern
04-17-2009, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
hmmm
I agree and I think this is more saddening than anything and it's only going to get worse. I am still having trouble understanding why Pakistan would hand over an area, 1,500 sq miles in size to the Taliban (supporters of Terrorism) and allow them to impose a strict form a Shariah law upon the people in the area.

Since they have returned...
-Oppression of women has returned
-Girls have been barred from school
-Schools are being burned down
-Increased beheadings, shootings, and bombings are on the rise
-Government buildings are bombed or burned down
-Police are being killed or driven out

If this is what you are happy about, if this is to represent Shariah law to the world, then I feel sorry for Muslims worldwide because the image of Islam especially to the United States is continually being knocked down a peg every time a news report comes in from the Middle East. I sincerely don't think the majority of Muslims throughout the world enjoy being depicted as cruel, oppressive people as images and stories from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan and now Pakistan continue to surface. I do not find Muslims or Islam to be cruel and oppressive but I do have issues with portions of Sharia law especially when and how its imposed upon people as we are currently seeing in Pakistan.
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czgibson
04-17-2009, 01:21 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Cern
Since they have returned...
-Oppression of women has returned
-Girls have been barred from school
-Schools are being burned down
-Increased beheadings, shootings, and bombings are on the rise
-Government buildings are bombed or burned down
-Police are being killed or driven out
This isn't shariah law, surely?

Peace
Reply

GreyKode
04-17-2009, 01:27 PM
^So cz are you being sarcastic?
all this time on the forum and still you think the Shariah Law =
-Oppression of women has returned
-Girls have been barred from school
-Schools are being burned down
-Increased beheadings, shootings, and bombings are on the rise
-Government buildings are bombed or burned down
-Police are being killed or driven out
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czgibson
04-17-2009, 01:31 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by GreyKode
^So cz are you being sarcastic?
all this time on the forum and still you think the Shariah Law =
-Oppression of women has returned
-Girls have been barred from school
-Schools are being burned down
-Increased beheadings, shootings, and bombings are on the rise
-Government buildings are bombed or burned down
-Police are being killed or driven out
No, in fact I'm saying precisely the opposite.

I thought that saying "This isn't shariah law, surely?" would be clear enough.

Evidently not.

Peace
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burdenofbeing
04-17-2009, 01:42 PM
there could be many different theories about the future of pakistan, and swat; and different takes about the event. maybe it's a good thing that the people over there got what they wanted. maybe it's a bad thing that they don't know what they are going to get. time will tell, but I'm not very optimistic TBH.
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convert
04-17-2009, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Cern
I agree and I think this is more saddening than anything and it's only going to get worse. I am still having trouble understanding why Pakistan would hand over an area, 1,500 sq miles in size to the Taliban (supporters of Terrorism) and allow them to impose a strict form a Shariah law upon the people in the area.

Since they have returned...
-Oppression of women has returned
-Girls have been barred from school
-Schools are being burned down
-Increased beheadings, shootings, and bombings are on the rise
-Government buildings are bombed or burned down
-Police are being killed or driven out

If this is what you are happy about, if this is to represent Shariah law to the world, then I feel sorry for Muslims worldwide because the image of Islam especially to the United States is continually being knocked down a peg every time a news report comes in from the Middle East. I sincerely don't think the majority of Muslims throughout the world enjoy being depicted as cruel, oppressive people as images and stories from Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan and now Pakistan continue to surface. I do not find Muslims or Islam to be cruel and oppressive but I do have issues with portions of Sharia law especially when and how its imposed upon people as we are currently seeing in Pakistan.
Perish in your rage.

Its a shame that Pakistan has to "approve" anything. May Allah keep our brothers and sisters in Pakistan and the world strong on the haqq.
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Cern
04-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
^So cz are you being sarcastic?
all this time on the forum and still you think the Shariah Law =
-Oppression of women has returned
-Girls have been barred from school
-Schools are being burned down
-Increased beheadings, shootings, and bombings are on the rise
-Government buildings are bombed or burned down
-Police are being killed or driven out
Even I don't believe that this is how Shariah law is in normal Muslims society's for I even have read Shariah law shares many similarities to the U.S. Constitution. But how the Taliban is using it is how the non-Muslim world sees it. This law wasn't passed to benefit all Pakistan Muslims but to end violence and benefit the Taliban version of it. The majority of people in the world are narrow-minded. They live their lives by media bites and key words. So, they hear "Sharia law", "Taliban", "violence", and "Islam" on the news over and over again (Fox News is bad for doing this) and it get's drilled in their head that "Islam represents Violence", "Taliban follows true Shariah law." Then they tell their narrow-minded friends, who tell their friends, etc and you breed hate and wrongful depictions of Islam and Muslims worldwide.
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Cern
04-17-2009, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by convert
Perish in your rage.
Perish in my rage? That's real nice to say. I am not raged I'm just pointing out fact of how the Taliban depicts Shariah law.
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czgibson
04-17-2009, 01:57 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by convert
Perish in your rage.
Why are you insulting someone who has your best interests at heart?

Peace
Reply

Banu_Hashim
04-17-2009, 02:08 PM
The fact that Shari'ah law is used in the courts in this area I think is a good thing. However the way the Taliban are implementing it, is not good or encouraging.
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The_Prince
04-17-2009, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
A lot of people will suffer pain and many will die, the lives of many will become a misery and It'll all end in tears. And, the impact will be felt not just by those in the Swat valley and not just by those in the rest of Pakistan but by all Pakistanis all over the world because whether you like it or not and no matter how hard you shout about not being judged by the actions of a few fanatics, and no matter how unjust to you that might be, you will be so judged by their actions by the rest of the world.
hey that sounds like Iraq and Afghanistan thanks to you trying to force your democracy on them!
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-17-2009, 02:12 PM
Insha'Allah!
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Erundur
04-17-2009, 02:32 PM
so does this mean that there is going to be a mass exodus of Pakistanis from the west moving to swat now?
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Thinker
04-17-2009, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
^So cz are you being sarcastic?
all this time on the forum and still you think the Shariah Law =
-Oppression of women has returned
-Girls have been barred from school
-Schools are being burned down
-Increased beheadings, shootings, and bombings are on the rise
-Government buildings are bombed or burned down
-Police are being killed or driven out
I think you’re missing the point (well missing my point at least) whether it is or is not sharia law is for Muslims to decide, in this particular case the problem is not whether it is or is not sharia law, the problem is that they are calling it sharia law and the rest of the has no reason to believe otherwise particularly as the Muslims outside of Pakistan are silent about how the Taliban are interpreting and implementing their version of sharia law.
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Uthman
04-17-2009, 07:06 PM
Greetings Thinker,
Originally Posted by Thinker
particularly as the Muslims outside of Pakistan are silent about how the Taliban are interpreting and implementing their version of sharia law.
How do you know that the Muslims outside of Pakistan who know about this are silent on this issue?
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Whatsthepoint
04-17-2009, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings Thinker, How do you know that the Muslims outside of Pakistan who know about this are silent on this issue?
If you go to page one, you can see several of your brethren inshallah-ing Pakistan's decision.
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Thinker
04-17-2009, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
hey that sounds like Iraq and Afghanistan thanks to you trying to force your democracy on them!
I agree – Iraq was complete stupidity, Afghan was a necessity; we’re on the way out of Iraq, we’d like (I am sure) to be on the way out of Afghanistan; why doesn’t the Muslim world offer to replace the western armed forces in Afghan with Muslim armed forces?
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Uthman
04-17-2009, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If you go to page one, you can see several of your brethren inshallah-ing Pakistan's decision.
Indeed but I don't think the Pakistani government has decided to implement the Taliban's interpretation of Shari'a law.
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Thinker
04-17-2009, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Erundur
so does this mean that there is going to be a mass exodus of Pakistanis from the west moving to swat now?
Or a mass exodus from the Swat moving to the west?
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Whatsthepoint
04-17-2009, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Indeed but I don't think the Pakistani government has decided to implement the Taliban's interpretation of Shari'a law.
They're letting Taliban implement it in swat.
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Uthman
04-17-2009, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
They're letting Taliban implement it in swat.
I see. I will also say: Hmm..
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AntiKarateKid
04-17-2009, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
A lot of people will suffer pain and many will die, the lives of many will become a misery and It'll all end in tears. And, the impact will be felt not just by those in the Swat valley and not just by those in the rest of Pakistan but by all Pakistanis all over the world because whether you like it or not and no matter how hard you shout about not being judged by the actions of a few fanatics, and no matter how unjust to you that might be, you will be so judged by their actions by the rest of the world.
I think you might be confusing things Thinker.

They said Shariah Law was being implemented, not that America was intervening. :rollseyes
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alcurad
04-17-2009, 07:41 PM
hmmm.

poor people, when will they ever learn,,
they are doing nothing more than breaking up Pakistan, as the situation there has gone from bad to worse thanks in no small part to their actions against the government, now the government is corrupt yes, but some semblance of it is much better than no government. this will be another Afghanistan/Iraq all over again if they continue their idiotic 'crusade' for Shari'a+Pakhtun Wali+I don't what from lord knows where, and the US is not helping with it's drone attacks murdering 'terrorist' civilians and 5 year olds.
stupidity incarnate all over,,
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AntiKarateKid
04-17-2009, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by alcurad
hmmm.

poor people, when will they ever learn,,
they are doing nothing more than breaking up Pakistan, as the situation there has gone from bad to worse thanks in no small part to their actions against the government, now the government is corrupt yes, but some semblance of it is much better than no government. this will be another Afghanistan/Iraq all over again if they continue their idiotic 'crusade' for Shari'a+Pakhtun Wali+I don't what from lord knows where, and the US is not helping with it's drone attacks murdering 'terrorist' 5 year olds.
stupidity incarnate all over,,
What would you suggest brother?
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Thinker
04-17-2009, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings Thinker, How do you know that the Muslims outside of Pakistan who know about this are silent on this issue?
Because I watch the news everyday and I've never seen any statements from leaders of any of the recognised Muslim groups (or for that matter anyone outside of the Government of Pakistan who are in denial) stating that what the Taliban are calling sharia law is their misguided interpretation of sharia law.
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Thinker
04-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by alcurad
hmmm.

poor people, when will they ever learn,,
they are doing nothing more than breaking up Pakistan, as the situation there has gone from bad to worse thanks in no small part to their actions against the government, now the government is corrupt yes, but some semblance of it is much better than no government. this will be another Afghanistan/Iraq all over again if they continue their idiotic 'crusade' for Shari'a+Pakhtun Wali+I don't what from lord knows where, and the US is not helping with it's drone attacks murdering 'terrorist' civilians and 5 year olds.
stupidity incarnate all over,,

I agree with you that it look like Pakistan is fragmenting but I don't blame the Americans for that I blame the leaders of Pakistan who supported and nurtured the Taliban for years, who allowed their Madrassas and whose corruption has left them weak.

I would also like to know what you would do if you were President of Pakistan?
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aadil77
04-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If you go to page one, you can see several of your brethren inshallah-ing Pakistan's decision.
Well you see this is one step forward, the interpretation of sharia will most definately change for the better when more and more educated scholars get involved
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alcurad
04-17-2009, 07:59 PM
anything but suicide bombings and killing your own muslim brothers, this is not how Allah's law is implemented, this is a crucial point, the greater harm is to be avoided when there is choice between greater and lesser harms. implementing their tribal law and destabilizing the government right now is akin to treason, if Pakistan is broken up like Iraq/Afghanistan are, there is no telling what the repercussion will be, the muslim ummah needs to advance and compete in this world where anyone but us has a say in any matter, how will there be even potential for that if there is no government? a government could be pressured to change internally, but a lawless no man's land where everyone is killing everyone else means destroying any form of meager progress there was, how much longer will it need then for us to survive let alone rebuild and advance??

what should be done is that the narrow views in play right now should be abandoned, the government's writ is not so bad at all in that area especially, right now the country is to be more united especially when there are so many enemies targeting it, Afghanistan and Pakistan rise or fall together, and the US wants the Pakis to abandon all of their interests short term and long for it's own interests, which markedly clash now more than ever, not to mention the economy's sinking to rock bottom, all that is needed to tear the country apart is another insurgency.
the president is as ineffectual as they get, and listening to the US on the matter and sending the troops is a very stupid idea too, these organizations fall apart when their heads are taken out, and when the population is not with them, and that's easy enough, the ISI+army+aid and development could solve most of this in the short term, and the US needs to stop killing more civilians, if they can't help they shouldn't make it worse. the change guy seems genuine but misinformed/green, he does have ears though, unlike his predecessor.
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Uthman
04-17-2009, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Because I watch the news everyday and I've never seen any statements from leaders of any of the recognised Muslim groups (or for that matter anyone outside of the Government of Pakistan who are in denial) stating that what the Taliban are calling sharia law is their misguided interpretation of sharia law.
When they are asked about it, what do they say? Are they asked?
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Cern
04-18-2009, 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by alcurad
and the US needs to stop killing more civilians, if they can't help they shouldn't make it worse. the change guy seems genuine but misinformed/green, he does have ears though, unlike his predecessor.
Yes, it is a shame when civilians are targeted in missile attacks but it has been made clear that the US will not back down when it comes to the Taliban or terrorists that hide within their ranks. The only way things will change is when the Pakistan government determines enough is enough and is willing to do anything to fix the problem. Their mistake was when they gave up and gave in to Taliban demands because now once the Taliban have a stronger foothold in Swat they will continue to advance till more territory is under their control. Pakistan should have had learned from Afghanistan's own history when it came to the Taliban and how they interpreted Shariah law.

Taliban justice in Swat Valley
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=754_1238022874

Pakistan No-Go Area As Taliban Take Control.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4cc_1237800680

Now watching these videos from a Westerners prospective you do note positive and negative aspects of the return of strict Shariah law to the area especially since no law has governed in this area for a long time. The problem I have with all of this is 1. the Taliban and 2. how they terrorized the area to get what they wanted. If Pakistan wants to implement Shariah law that is their choice but it shouldn't be done because the government was backed into a corner with a gun pressed against their head.
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Dawud_uk
04-18-2009, 06:58 AM
cern,

it would be better if the taliban had better media relations, but that is not really the issue here.

the first issue is should the muslims impliment shariah? of-course they should, it is a fundemental part of our deen, the denial of which is kufr and takes you outside the fold of islam (not a particular issue for you i am sure but most people are muslim)

the 2nd issue is whether this is the correct form of shariah, i agree there are problems with it but it is better than nothing at all. the people here have had no justice and no working legal system, now they have one.

so they are trying to implement shariah, so i support them and love them for it, indeed swat and pakistan in general have gone up in my estimation by a huge amount because of this and looks a more positive place to make hijrah towards.

i love my taliban brothers and hope they are successful whether in afghanistan, pakistan or elsewhere and keep making dua for their success and also their continued purification so the occassional mistakes dont happen, but those mistakes are not any reason a muslim should not support them and support secularism instead which is what some on here have mistakenly done.
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Dawud_uk
04-18-2009, 07:02 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I agree – Iraq was complete stupidity, Afghan was a necessity; we’re on the way out of Iraq, we’d like (I am sure) to be on the way out of Afghanistan; why doesn’t the Muslim world offer to replace the western armed forces in Afghan with Muslim armed forces?
because they would be viewed by the taliban and all right minded muslims as apostates, stooges of the west and killed in huge numbers as they would be fighting a war that the west is already losing with its massive technological advantage, how do you suppose the armies of these apostate regimes would manage any better with less technology?
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Woodrow
04-18-2009, 07:32 AM
At the moment I have not direct daily contact with people in Pakistan and no longer live in a Pakistani community as I did in Austin. All I can do is repeat what I last heard in Austin on my last visit in December.

The people from Pakistan I know in Austin are in Austin primarily because they feel the Taliban concept of Shariah is rapidly bringing an end to Pakistan as a country. My friends and Pakistan in-laws predict a very dismal future for Pakistan and see it as being in it's final days and will soon be split between Iran and India. thes will in effect end any attempt at true sharia law and the result will be a divided country with no unity. Rather then bringing about shariah the Taliban can very well be the instrument that will hinder the implementation of a true Shariah government in Pakistan.

Just my opinion from what I heard back in December. we do have some members here currently living in Pakistan, perhaps their input could help us all see what is or is not happening in Pakistan and from their input maybe we can learn if it is heading Pakistan to true Shariah or leading the country further from it.
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Dawud_uk
04-18-2009, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
At the moment I have not direct daily contact with people in Pakistan and no longer live in a Pakistani community as I did in Austin. All I can do is repeat what I last heard in Austin on my last visit in December.

The people from Pakistan I know in Austin are in Austin primarily because they feel the Taliban concept of Shariah is rapidly bringing an end to Pakistan as a country. My friends and Pakistan in-laws predict a very dismal future for Pakistan and see it as being in it's final days and will soon be split between Iran and India. thes will in effect end any attempt at true sharia law and the result will be a divided country with no unity. Rather then bringing about shariah the Taliban can very well be the instrument that will hinder the implementation of a true Shariah government in Pakistan.

Just my opinion from what I heard back in December. we do have some members here currently living in Pakistan, perhaps their input could help us all see what is or is not happening in Pakistan and from their input maybe we can learn if it is heading Pakistan to true Shariah or leading the country further from it.
:sl:

it seems strange that if you disapprove of someones interpretation of shariah you move to a land where there is no shariah at all, the very country aiming to stop shariah by any means possible or necessary, the country that seems to have taken the meaning behind the slogan 'better dead than red' and now applied it to the muslims rather than the communists they used to apply it to.

could you tell me yourself if you know, or if not could you ask them what aspects of the taliban rule they dislike?

i find most people who say this are secularists, liberals or modernists, do not understand shariah or quite simply do not want it as it is meant to be implemented, only wanting the bits applying to marriage, inheritance, divorce etc.

there are some minor aspects i disagree with with the taliban, but fundementally it is the taliban and other islamist movements working to establish shariah that makes me want to move to pakistan.

:sl:
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Whatsthepoint
04-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

it seems strange that if you disapprove of someones interpretation of shariah you move to a land where there is no shariah at all, the very country aiming to stop shariah by any means possible or necessary, the country that seems to have taken the meaning behind the slogan 'better dead than red' and now applied it to the muslims rather than the communists they used to apply it to.

could you tell me yourself if you know, or if not could you ask them what aspects of the taliban rule they dislike?

i find most people who say this are secularists, liberals or modernists, do not understand shariah or quite simply do not want it as it is meant to be implemented, only wanting the bits applying to marriage, inheritance, divorce etc.

there are some minor aspects i disagree with with the taliban, but fundementally it is the taliban and other islamist movements working to establish shariah that makes me want to move to pakistan.

:sl:
What exactly keeps you in the UK?
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Uthman
04-18-2009, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What exactly keeps you in the UK?
Have you read his blog? If not, you can find it in his signature. :)

If you have, well...nothing...
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Zahida
04-18-2009, 10:56 AM
:sl: My personal feelings on this are that if Shariah Law is applied and Mr Zardari has made a statement of approval it should be throughout Pakistan and not just in certain places.................

If any of you watch the channels such as Geo, and Prime TV all this nonsense would be stopped.The newscasters should not be allowed to sit side by side whilst broadcasting the news after all they are ghair mehram for each other................ The women on TV and their clothes........alot of things should be questioned it is not as easy as it seems..........:D:w:
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ahmed_indian
04-18-2009, 11:35 AM
alhamdulillah...sharia law

may Allah bring it all over pakistan and then world soon

O Allah..bless us to be in an Islamic State.
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Thinker
04-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
When they are asked about it, what do they say? Are they asked?
I don't know if they have been asked, I have not seen any news reports of anyone asking them. Do they need to be asked?
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Thinker
04-18-2009, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
so they are trying to implement shariah, so i support them and love them for it, indeed swat and pakistan in general have gone up in my estimation by a huge amount because of this and looks a more positive place to make hijrah towards.
Hijrah - you talk the talk but you don't walk the walk
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Thinker
04-18-2009, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
We do have some members here currently living in Pakistan, perhaps their input could help us all see what is or is not happening in Pakistan and from their input maybe we can learn if it is heading Pakistan to true Shariah or leading the country further from it.

I'd very much like to hear from them, maybe one of them might like to do a house swap with Dawud.
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Thinker
04-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:
there are some minor aspects i disagree with with the taliban, but fundementally it is the taliban and other islamist movements working to establish shariah that makes me want to move to pakistan.

:sl:
Can I know what they are?
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Cern
04-18-2009, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
cern,

it would be better if the taliban had better media relations, but that is not really the issue here.

the first issue is should the muslims impliment shariah? of-course they should, it is a fundemental part of our deen, the denial of which is kufr and takes you outside the fold of islam (not a particular issue for you i am sure but most people are muslim)
I guess it would depend on the Muslim. If you look at several countries from Turkey to Saudi Arabia you have varied interpretations of the law. Which interpretation and implementation is correct? There are even Muslims that don't even support Shariah law because they feel the law needs to reformed for modern day is currently to barbaric.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
the 2nd issue is whether this is the correct form of shariah, i agree there are problems with it but it is better than nothing at all. the people here have had no justice and no working legal system, now they have one.
The reason there has been no law was because of the Taliban. When a group of people come into a country ruled by another set of laws and tries to implement their own policies you are going to have violence. We all know that this area has been a battleground these last few years and because of that there has been no order and only chaos.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
so they are trying to implement shariah, so i support them and love them for it, indeed swat and pakistan in general have gone up in my estimation by a huge amount because of this and looks a more positive place to make hijrah towards.
Pakistan is not allowing Shariah law nation wide. They are only allowing it in Swat. The only reason they are allowing it is because the Taliban has been terrorizing the area for the last few years. Through violence they forced Pakistan to do things their way and now that they have Shariah law they implemented their violent strict form of it into the region. As I read your post it seems that common sense has been turned off. I don't mean that in a insulting way but people preach Islam is peaceful, Islam is against violence and then you have the Taliban. They do not advocate peace. The advocate violence, oppression, and submission.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i love my taliban brothers and hope they are successful whether in afghanistan, pakistan or elsewhere and keep making dua for their success and also their continued purification so the occassional mistakes dont happen, but those mistakes are not any reason a muslim should not support them and support secularism instead which is what some on here have mistakenly done.
:enough!:
Reply

Cern
04-18-2009, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

it seems strange that if you disapprove of someones interpretation of shariah you move to a land where there is no shariah at all, the very country aiming to stop shariah by any means possible or necessary, the country that seems to have taken the meaning behind the slogan 'better dead than red' and now applied it to the muslims rather than the communists they used to apply it to.
There is a difference between disliking ones mindset of Shariah law and being forced into following that persons mindset. Your 'better dead than red' comment is flawed. People do not fear Muslims. They fear extremists, radicals, and terrorists. Yes, I do not foresee Shariah law to ever be implemented within the United States. There are only roughly 6 to 8 million Muslims in this country in which 72% of the population is Christian. I would be willing as an American to allow portions of Shariah law to implemented within large Muslim communities as long as no State, Federal, or Constitutional laws were broken.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i find most people who say this are secularists, liberals or modernists, do not understand shariah or quite simply do not want it as it is meant to be implemented, only wanting the bits applying to marriage, inheritance, divorce etc.
Maybe it's because we do understand it is to why we are secularists, liberals and/or moderates. There are some portions of Shariah law imho that are outdated and unrealistic and should not be implemented in today's society.
Reply

Woodrow
04-18-2009, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

it seems strange that if you disapprove of someones interpretation of shariah you move to a land where there is no shariah at all, the very country aiming to stop shariah by any means possible or necessary, the country that seems to have taken the meaning behind the slogan 'better dead than red' and now applied it to the muslims rather than the communists they used to apply it to.

could you tell me yourself if you know, or if not could you ask them what aspects of the taliban rule they dislike?

i find most people who say this are secularists, liberals or modernists, do not understand shariah or quite simply do not want it as it is meant to be implemented, only wanting the bits applying to marriage, inheritance, divorce etc.

there are some minor aspects i disagree with with the taliban, but fundementally it is the taliban and other islamist movements working to establish shariah that makes me want to move to pakistan.

:sl:
peace Brother,

As I stated in my post I do not have direct contact with Pakistan. However a large percentage of the immigrants to the Austin area are from Pakistan and many are recent. My last face to face contact with them was back in Dec.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
it seems strange that if you disapprove of someones interpretation of shariah you move to a land where there is no shariah at all, the very country aiming to stop shariah by any means possible or necessary, the country that seems to have taken the meaning behind the slogan 'better dead than red' and now applied it to the muslims rather than the communists they used to apply it to.
Those that I have spoken with speak in favor of shariah law. But, they do not see the taliban as trying to bring about shariah, rather as attempting to use the name of shariah to bring an end to Pakistan.



Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
could you tell me yourself if you know, or if not could you ask them what aspects of the taliban rule they dislike?
From what I gathered in my conversations the people (recent immigrants from Pakistan) I spoke to. Are anti-taliban, not anti Shariah. They see the Taliban as having come from Iraq and were originally supporters of the US in the battles against the Russians. After the Taliban were abandoned by the US they were replaced mostly with hoodlums and gangsters that are only interested in violence and destruction. they are more like organized street gangs using the name of shariah to bring about their own desire for anarchy.

I can only repeat what I heard in Dec. But the people I spoke to do not see the Taliban as enforcing Shariah, but as militant teenagers or gang members.


Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i find most people who say this are secularists, liberals or modernists, do not understand shariah or quite simply do not want it as it is meant to be implemented, only wanting the bits applying to marriage, inheritance, divorce etc.
That is a possibility. But, the other side of the coin is also a possibility and the Taliban are not promoting shariah, but using the name of shariah to justify crimes.

I do also see a need for Shariah in much of Pakistan as there is a very large degree of immorality not only from the past governments, but among the people themselves. the use of alcohol is widespread, immorality between men and women is common place. While most people in Pakistan do appear to be good sincere Muslims there are many enclaves were immorality appears to be the rule. However, from what I have heard the Taliban is not the vessel to spread Shariah. the taliban concept of Shariah does not seem to be Shariah, if what I have been told is true.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
there are some minor aspects i disagree with with the taliban, but fundementally it is the taliban and other islamist movements working to establish shariah that makes me want to move to pakistan.
I doubt if either of us can say what is the truth about the Taliban as neither of us is living in the SWAT Region. I can understand you have heard a different view of the Taliban, which differs from the view I heard. but, I doubt if either of us can know for certain what is true at this time. If I was certain the truth was what you have heard, I too would support the Taliban. But, from what I have heard the Taliban seems to be a threat to Islam in Pakistan.
Reply

Uthman
04-18-2009, 04:55 PM
Greetings Thinker,
Originally Posted by Thinker
I don't know if they have been asked, I have not seen any news reports of anyone asking them. Do they need to be asked?
How else would you expect to find out their opinion on the news?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-18-2009, 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings Thinker, How else would you expect to find out their opinion on the news?
Press conference?
A letter?
A small notice in their websites?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-18-2009, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Have you read his blog? If not, you can find it in his signature. :)

If you have, well...nothing...
I haven't.
Reply

Uthman
04-18-2009, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Press conference?
A letter?
A small notice in their websites?
None of these have happened?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-18-2009, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
None of these have happened?
I don't know, ask thinker.
As for Dawud, it would seem he's been planning to move out for several years now. Surely in that that time he could have found a land more appropriate than the UK, even to serve him as a temporary hub till a proper sharia state is founded and we my be looking at one this very moment.
Reply

Amadeus85
04-18-2009, 05:40 PM
Law system in Pakistani province isn't my concern as Im man born and living in central Europe. All I wish is that citizens there suffer less and live better.
Reply

Uthman
04-18-2009, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't know, ask thinker.
I've actually lost interest in this discussion anyway tbh. :D

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
As for Dawud, it would seem he's been planning to move out for several years now. Surely in that that time he could have found a land more appropriate than the UK, even to serve him as a temporary hub till a proper sharia state is founded and we my be looking at one this very moment.
Perhaps, but brother Dawud alone knows the reality of his own situation and I have no doubt that he has genuine reasons. I don't know his true situation so I will leave it to him if he wishes to explain himself or not.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What exactly keeps you in the UK?
i need to learn the lingo (arabic first, then urdu) and i need a few grand for the move (about 10% there).

check the blog and you'll understand more.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Hijrah - you talk the talk but you don't walk the walk
you are perhaps the rudest frenchman i have known and that is saying something.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Can I know what they are?
they are from the deobandi school mostly so although the rulings they follow are within the allowable differences it is more a difference of style, of mood, of following the more harsh ruling within each allowable difference.

saying that, i would still love to live there as having some shariah you agree with is better than none at all.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by Cern
I guess it would depend on the Muslim. If you look at several countries from Turkey to Saudi Arabia you have varied interpretations of the law. Which interpretation and implementation is correct? There are even Muslims that don't even support Shariah law because they feel the law needs to reformed for modern day is currently to barbaric.



The reason there has been no law was because of the Taliban. When a group of people come into a country ruled by another set of laws and tries to implement their own policies you are going to have violence. We all know that this area has been a battleground these last few years and because of that there has been no order and only chaos.



Pakistan is not allowing Shariah law nation wide. They are only allowing it in Swat. The only reason they are allowing it is because the Taliban has been terrorizing the area for the last few years. Through violence they forced Pakistan to do things their way and now that they have Shariah law they implemented their violent strict form of it into the region. As I read your post it seems that common sense has been turned off. I don't mean that in a insulting way but people preach Islam is peaceful, Islam is against violence and then you have the Taliban. They do not advocate peace. The advocate violence, oppression, and submission.



:enough!:
cern,

talk to any pakistani, it is almost impossible to get anything through the courts there unless you pay bribes to get your case heard, land is stolen and the land registry changed, this has happened to so many people i know in the uk it is shocking.

there is no justice, this has been the case for decades, hardly can be the talibans fault can it?

also, who told you islam means peace? islam means submission to Allah, when it comes to non-muslims we are peaceful with those who are peaceful with us, but in our own lands things are different.

if people are doing things wrong we stop them, that is part of the shariah the state needs to bring about, others have mentioned some of the open sins and evils on the streets of pakistan so we need to put a stop to that.

regarding 'muslims' who dont support the shariah, they are disbelievers and have negated their imaan. there are differences in interpretation but anyone who says they dont want shariah is a kaffir.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
peace Brother,

As I stated in my post I do not have direct contact with Pakistan. However a large percentage of the immigrants to the Austin area are from Pakistan and many are recent. My last face to face contact with them was back in Dec.



Those that I have spoken with speak in favor of shariah law. But, they do not see the taliban as trying to bring about shariah, rather as attempting to use the name of shariah to bring an end to Pakistan.





From what I gathered in my conversations the people (recent immigrants from Pakistan) I spoke to. Are anti-taliban, not anti Shariah. They see the Taliban as having come from Iraq and were originally supporters of the US in the battles against the Russians. After the Taliban were abandoned by the US they were replaced mostly with hoodlums and gangsters that are only interested in violence and destruction. they are more like organized street gangs using the name of shariah to bring about their own desire for anarchy.

I can only repeat what I heard in Dec. But the people I spoke to do not see the Taliban as enforcing Shariah, but as militant teenagers or gang members.




That is a possibility. But, the other side of the coin is also a possibility and the Taliban are not promoting shariah, but using the name of shariah to justify crimes.

I do also see a need for Shariah in much of Pakistan as there is a very large degree of immorality not only from the past governments, but among the people themselves. the use of alcohol is widespread, immorality between men and women is common place. While most people in Pakistan do appear to be good sincere Muslims there are many enclaves were immorality appears to be the rule. However, from what I have heard the Taliban is not the vessel to spread Shariah. the taliban concept of Shariah does not seem to be Shariah, if what I have been told is true.



I doubt if either of us can say what is the truth about the Taliban as neither of us is living in the SWAT Region. I can understand you have heard a different view of the Taliban, which differs from the view I heard. but, I doubt if either of us can know for certain what is true at this time. If I was certain the truth was what you have heard, I too would support the Taliban. But, from what I have heard the Taliban seems to be a threat to Islam in Pakistan.
:sl:

i dont want to offend pakistanis but when it comes to international affairs some of them, especially their newspapers columnists and other informers of public opinion are quite often delusional and paranoid, so they see everything that happens as plots and plans against them.

so this is why you get the mumbai attacks, pakistani nationals and most pakistanis still telling you it is an indian plot or the israelis did it.

i am not saying the indians, israelis, iranians etc are not out to get pakistan, just that this theory of the taliban being against shariah would be funny if so many people didnt take it seriously.

so the ones who are fighting for shariah are actually secretly against it and working for the kuffar and the ones who are openly allied to the kuffar and are fighting against shariah are the ones who are correct... quite insane reasoning but if you read pakistani newspapers or speak to pakistanis even in the west this is their reasoning and ideas.

could i ask why you think the taliban are not bringing in shariah? i agree that sometimes gangsters and wannabees do bad things in the name of the taliban but the movement itself, why do you feel they are not bringing in shariah? can you point to anything which would suggest they are not to back up that point of view? do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?

i find that almost always it can be shown that the taliban have acted correctly or it can be shown they've acted with the best intention with instances are brought up, or the person objecting has not understand the islamic reasoning behind their action so label it unislamic, and the few times this is not the case are not enough for me to not support them as overall they good, overall they are fighting for Allah and what right do i living in the comfort of the west have to judge them for a few mistakes when i have not been through the circumstances they have.

:sl:
Reply

Thinker
04-19-2009, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
regarding 'muslims' who dont support the shariah, they are disbelievers and have negated their imaan. there are differences in interpretation but anyone who says they dont want shariah is a kaffir.
Do you have some Islamic text which supports that claim?
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Do you have some Islamic text which supports that claim?
they are kuffar because they deny Allah's right as sole legislater, as ordered in the Quran and if a muslim denies one ayat then they are a kaffir.

it is like saying they or others are right and Allah is wrong, craziness (at least from a believers point of view)
Reply

Uthman
04-19-2009, 10:12 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
they are kuffar because they deny Allah's right as sole legislater, as ordered in the Quran
Do you have the specific ayah for this akhee? Not that I don't believe you, but it is useful knowledge.

:w:
Reply

Thinker
04-19-2009, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
they are kuffar because they deny Allah's right as sole legislater, as ordered in the Quran and if a muslim denies one ayat then they are a kaffir.

it is like saying they or others are right and Allah is wrong, craziness (at least from a believers point of view)
Hmmm - I can now understand why you want to live with the taliban!!!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i need to learn the lingo (arabic first, then urdu) and i need a few grand for the move (about 10% there).

check the blog and you'll understand more.
How hard can it be to learn 2 languages and besides you only need to know the basics and leanr the rest there and take out a loan.
the only real problem is getting a lgal permit to live there, a resident visa or something.
But anyway, hijra is a hijra not a horse.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
:sl: Do you have the specific ayah for this akhee? Not that I don't believe you, but it is useful knowledge.

:w:
:w:

And He associates in His rule no one
18:62

Judgment belongs only to Allah
12:40

“And it is known by necessity in the Deen of the Muslims and by the agreement of all the Muslims that whoever follows a Sharee'ah other than the Sharee'ah of Muhammad then he is a Kaafir and it is like the Kufr of the one who believes in some of the Book and disbelieves in some of the Book. Al-Fataawa, Vol. 28/ 524”
-Sheikh ul Islam ibn Taymiyyah

:w:
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How hard can it be to learn 2 languages and besides you only need to know the basics and leanr the rest there and take out a loan.
the only real problem is getting a lgal permit to live there, a resident visa or something.
But anyway, hijra is a hijra not a horse.
i agree normally it easy for people, but you are talking to someone who was in the top classes for every subject but spanish... where i was in the bottom class.

i agree the legal permit thing is a problem, but if you can show you have savings, or an income then it isnt in most places.
Reply

Uthman
04-19-2009, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:w:

And He associates in His rule no one
18:62

Judgment belongs only to Allah
12:40

“And it is known by necessity in the Deen of the Muslims and by the agreement of all the Muslims that whoever follows a Sharee'ah other than the Sharee'ah of Muhammad then he is a Kaafir and it is like the Kufr of the one who believes in some of the Book and disbelieves in some of the Book. Al-Fataawa, Vol. 28/ 524”
-Sheikh ul Islam ibn Taymiyyah

:w:
JazakAllahu Khayran. That makes it crystal clear.
Reply

Woodrow
04-19-2009, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:

i dont want to offend pakistanis but when it comes to international affairs some of them, especially their newspapers columnists and other informers of public opinion are quite often delusional and paranoid, so they see everything that happens as plots and plans against them.

so this is why you get the mumbai attacks, pakistani nationals and most pakistanis still telling you it is an indian plot or the israelis did it.

i am not saying the indians, israelis, iranians etc are not out to get pakistan, just that this theory of the taliban being against shariah would be funny if so many people didnt take it seriously.

so the ones who are fighting for shariah are actually secretly against it and working for the kuffar and the ones who are openly allied to the kuffar and are fighting against shariah are the ones who are correct... quite insane reasoning but if you read pakistani newspapers or speak to pakistanis even in the west this is their reasoning and ideas.

could i ask why you think the taliban are not bringing in shariah? i agree that sometimes gangsters and wannabees do bad things in the name of the taliban but the movement itself, why do you feel they are not bringing in shariah? can you point to anything which would suggest they are not to back up that point of view? do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?

i find that almost always it can be shown that the taliban have acted correctly or it can be shown they've acted with the best intention with instances are brought up, or the person objecting has not understand the islamic reasoning behind their action so label it unislamic, and the few times this is not the case are not enough for me to not support them as overall they good, overall they are fighting for Allah and what right do i living in the comfort of the west have to judge them for a few mistakes when i have not been through the circumstances they have.

:sl:
:sl:

In spite of my posts often being contrary to your, I do hope you know I have the highest respect for your willingness to stand up for what you believe and your sincerity in pursuing what you see as truth.

I do know that the people we have in the US from Pakistan have been received in the US differently then they have been in the UK. Nearly all of the people from Pakistan here were highly successful people in Pakistan and left primarily because of the past governments. They are quite successful here also, most being Doctors or business owners, along with many Imams that have established Masjids here.

My son-in-law has a very successful export business and imports many Pakistani goods here for his US store. Mostly things like traditional Pakistan food and clothing. He returns to Pakistan for a least one month each year. He desires to live under Sharia as do most of the Pakistanis here also do. But they see little chance of Sharia being implemented in Pakistan. In the US at least for civil law sharia law is permitted in most states,provided all parties agree. That is not true for all States, but Texas is one of the states that does permit it for civil cases.

Also local communities do have the right to establish local laws for their own communities. Which is done in the larger Pakistan communities. Local government in the US often differs from State or Federal law and as long as it does not interfere with with any national issues it is permitted. Other examples: The Amish and Mennonites live under their own laws in their own communities. I currently live on a Native American Reservation. The Reservations are governed under Tribal Law and not US law. the rez I live on is under the sioux Nation and the reservation is seen as being the "Lakota Sioux Nation" yet it is still in the USA and the people hold all of the rights of any US citizen. so it can not be said that Shariah can not be implimented in the USA. I believe their will be Shariah local governments in the USA before Shariah is a reality in most of today's predominantly Muslim countries.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
could i ask why you think the taliban are not bringing in shariah? i agree that sometimes gangsters and wannabees do bad things in the name of the taliban but the movement itself, why do you feel they are not bringing in shariah? can you point to anything which would suggest they are not to back up that point of view? do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?
The Taliban movement as it actually was for many years, is very honorable and very good. Many of the Pakistanis, I know, believe the Taliban in Pakistan are Taliban in name only and are not acting for Islam but for political purposes. what they see is:

1. the only people they fight are Muslims

2. They are striking fear into the rural Muslims, leading them to become more supportive of foreign intervention in Pakistan affairs

3. None of the known Taliban in the SWAT region are either Pakistani or Afghanistani, but seem to be foreigners.

Getting to your the last question.
"do you have any concrete proof or just feelings from pakistanis?"
that is all I have to go by. It is virtually impossible to get any unbiased word about Pakistan. There used to be an Urdu TV channal, from Karachi I used to watch in Austin, but that also can not be said to be free from bias.

I know your view of the Taliban in Pakistan is quite the opposite of what I see. Perhaps you can share some of your sources that lead your opinion to be the opposite of what I get told.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

In spite of my posts often being contrary to your, I do hope you know I have the highest respect for your willingness to stand up for what you believe and your sincerity in pursuing what you see as truth.

I do know that the people we have in the US from Pakistan have been received in the US differently then they have been in the UK. Nearly all of the people from Pakistan here were highly successful people in Pakistan and left primarily because of the past governments. They are quite successful here also, most being Doctors or business owners, along with many Imams that have established Masjids here.

My son-in-law has a very successful export business and imports many Pakistani goods here for his US store. Mostly things like traditional Pakistan food and clothing. He returns to Pakistan for a least one month each year. He desires to live under Sharia as do most of the Pakistanis here also do. But they see little chance of Sharia being implemented in Pakistan. In the US at least for civil law sharia law is permitted in most states,provided all parties agree. That is not true for all States, but Texas is one of the states that does permit it for civil cases.

Also local communities do have the right to establish local laws for their own communities. Which is done in the larger Pakistan communities. Local government in the US often differs from State or Federal law and as long as it does not interfere with with any national issues it is permitted. Other examples: The Amish and Mennonites live under their own laws in their own communities. I currently live on a Native American Reservation. The Reservations are governed under Tribal Law and not US law. the rez I live on is under the sioux Nation and the reservation is seen as being the "Lakota Sioux Nation" yet it is still in the USA and the people hold all of the rights of any US citizen. so it can not be said that Shariah can not be implimented in the USA. I believe their will be Shariah local governments in the USA before Shariah is a reality in most of today's predominantly Muslim countries.



The Taliban movement as it actually was for many years, is very honorable and very good. Many of the Pakistanis, I know, believe the Taliban in Pakistan are Taliban in name only and are not acting for Islam but for political purposes. what they see is:

1. the only people they fight are Muslims

2. They are striking fear into the rural Muslims, leading them to become more supportive of foreign intervention in Pakistan affairs

3. None of the known Taliban in the SWAT region are either Pakistani or Afghanistani, but seem to be foreigners.

Getting to your the last question. that is all I have to go by. It is virtually impossible to get any unbiased word about Pakistan. There used to be an Urdu TV channal, from Karachi I used to watch in Austin, but that also can not be said to be free from bias.

I know your view of the Taliban in Pakistan is quite the opposite of what I see. Perhaps you can share some of your sources that lead your opinion to be the opposite of what I get told.
:sl:

if i deal with your last point first...

most of my friends in the city i used to live in are pakistani or afghan pathans, the masjid i attended mostly and where i said my shahadah was predominately pathan though with about 40-50% other pakistani, arab, somali and revert (in that order) with a few omanis, bengalis, nigerians and others thrown into the mix.

even though it was very pathan in character and so extremely friendly to everyone but before anyone things i have been blinded by pathan nationalism into supporting the taliban, the imam is gujarati and the assistant imam is bengali, the muazzin somali, head of dawah was a revert so hardly nationalistic.

so most of my info is simular to your's in that it is formed from the opinions of others that they have told me about themselves, their own personal experiences and the experiences of their families back in pakistan and afghanistan.

but i also have gone out of my way to inform myself from other sources, speak to those who travel there themselves rather than rely on news sources from the kuffar or secular muslims,

so i have met many people who have lived and travelled under the taliban rule, people who i would trust with my life without a worry.

they are also in many cases like me wanting to make hijrah, some have already gone, some are in the process of making preparations so they keep themselves informed and up to date like i do and we all share information not in passing but actively seeking it and passing it on.

so for a non-pathan, no urdu speaker i think i am about as informed as it is possible to be about the situation.

now dealing with some of your other points...


1. the only people they fight are Muslims
a muslim who opposes the shariah, fights for a government who opposes the shariah or takes their side is by definition a kaffir as he has done kufr known by necessity.

the fataawah of ibn taymiyyah and many of the ulema of the past are clear on this matter when dealing with the tartars, who also claimed islam, he ruled that their blood, their families and property were all halal for the mujahideen to take, as well as this he made the same ruling for all those who supported them.

2. They are striking fear into the rural Muslims, leading them to become more supportive of foreign intervention in Pakistan affairs
this is as hardly true, most against even the kuffar media are saying the people are broadly supportive of their efforts. smacks of pakistani secular elite and their paranoia again to be honest.

because to them the true muslims are the ones who are really and openly siding with the kuffar, and those who oppose them must be in some secret pact with the kuffar.

3. None of the known Taliban in the SWAT region are either Pakistani or Afghanistani, but seem to be foreigners.
yes the pakistani taliban are different, they have a much greater % of tribesman and less of ulema and students of knowledge and so i would agree they can tend to come across a little more OTT and make more mistakes.

but they still respect mullah muhammad omar as amir ul mumineen, follow his instructions and orders so are effectly a different branch of the same organisation.

their goal is to establish islam in the tribal areas and afghanistan but with no intention of stopping there, also taking over the whole of pakistan and other areas also.

so they are not seperate, they are the same. they include foreign fighters, but locals also, indeed predominately locals as even the kuffar news sources report.

there are uzbeks, arabs, chinese, even western reverts in their ranks. but wouldnt it be more worrying if they didnt? wouldnt that make them more nationalistic and less an islamic movement?

were the armies of muhammad (saws) less islamic for having bilal and salman al farsi (ra) as well as many others in their ranks?

finally,
now saying you can have shariah in the US is not really true, what you can have is some aspects of family law in the shariah, but you cant have the whole package.

in just the same way as those who say you can practice islam in the west are not truthful as you cannot perform many acts which are fard nor can you avoid all the matters which are haram.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i agree normally it easy for people, but you are talking to someone who was in the top classes for every subject but spanish... where i was in the bottom class.

i agree the legal permit thing is a problem, but if you can show you have savings, or an income then it isnt in most places.
How long have you been studying arabic/Urdu?
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How long have you been studying arabic/Urdu?
about a year and a half, but my teacher ended up starting the course again due to lack of attendence from others but feel am starting to get somewhere and have a grasp of basic grammar.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
about a year and a half, but my teacher ended up starting the course again due to lack of attendence from others but feel am starting to get somewhere and have a grasp of basic grammar.
Basics is all you need, you'll be fluent in a heartbeat once you get there especially if English isn't a second language and you're forced to do with what you got.
I think you're good to go.
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Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Basics is all you need, you'll be fluent in a heartbeat once you get there especially if English isn't a second language and you're forced to do with what you got.
I think you're good to go.
thanks for your kind thoughts, well im still in need of about 9k sterling travel and settling money, so have a wip round and tell them its a sure way of getting rid on an islamic radical from the uk.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
thanks for your kind thoughts, well im still in need of about 9k sterling travel and settling money, so have a wip round and tell them its a sure way of getting rid on an islamic radical from the uk.
:D:bump1:
Reply

Woodrow
04-19-2009, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
:sl:


finally,
now saying you can have shariah in the US is not really true, what you can have is some aspects of family law in the shariah, but you cant have the whole package.

in just the same way as those who say you can practice islam in the west are not truthful as you cannot perform many acts which are fard nor can you avoid all the matters which are haram.
Not as far fetched as it sounds for the possibility of Shariah being a reality in some parts of the US. Fiji, The Philipines, Puerto Rico, American Samoa are all parts of the USA and have very different laws then any States. Even within the contiguous lower 48 states there are differences. the Biggest difference being the State of Louisiana which is under Napolianic law.

Plus the Amish and Mennonite communities are under religious law that forbids nearly everything that shariah forbids.

You also have the native American Reservations, (SEVERAL HUNDRED) which are governed under tribal, not US law.

These are not small communities, they rival some European Nations in Area. The Largest Native American Reservation is the Navajo Nation and it is over 27,000 squre miles. Some of the Amish Communities also are the size of some nations. Many Amish communities have populations of over 100,000 people and the Amish are governed under religious, not secular law. We do disagree with the Amish religious practices, but if the Amish have the right to live under Amish religious law we have the right to live under shariah, if a community chooses to do so.

I can not think of any fard act that would not be permitted in the USA, within an Islamic community.

Dearborn, Michigan, which is the self proclaimed Islamic Capital of the USA is very close to being under full Sharia law and I expect it will be within my lifetime.
Reply

Thinker
04-19-2009, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
thanks for your kind thoughts, well im still in need of about 9k sterling travel and settling money, so have a wip round and tell them its a sure way of getting rid on an islamic radical from the uk.
Can I know what is the total amount you hope to raise before you leave?
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Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 07:11 PM
I can not think of any fard act that would not be permitted in the USA, within an Islamic community.
going in the path of Allah, which according to the overwhelming consensus of the ulema is fard, supporting them with your wealth if possible, subhanallah it is getting to the point where even if you make du'a then that can be taken as encouraging terrorism and so lead to a hefty prison sentence, remember the main evidence against sheikh ali at tamimi was a video of him making du'a for the success of the taliban.

any by-law you bring in, on a state or local level can be declared illegal by men in washington, as such the laws are beholden to man not to Allah.

i know we can bring in aspects of shariah, but the whole thing, certainly not, they would never allow it.

akhi, i know you are well intentioned and we all try our best but it is not even halal to stop in darul kufr when they are at war with the muslims.
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czgibson
04-19-2009, 07:12 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Thinker
Can I know what is the total amount you hope to raise before you leave?
I think Dawud said earlier that he was 10% of the way there, so that would make the total figure £10,000. :)

Peace
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Can I know what is the total amount you hope to raise before you leave?
about £10k, but it depends where we go really. but with about £10k i can travel there, hire a flat, look for work and also bring my family over.
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Dawud_uk
04-19-2009, 07:13 PM
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...738662194.html
Reply

Thinker
04-19-2009, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
thanks for your kind thoughts, well im still in need of about 9k sterling travel and settling money, so have a wip round and tell them its a sure way of getting rid on an islamic radical from the uk.
I believe your target is 10K meaning you've managed to save a measly 1K. You started your blog six months ago, so lets guess that you started your hijrah plan at least six month earlier, that means it's taken you a year to save 1K and at that rate it'll take another 9 years to reach your target - can I know if you have a regular salary paying job or are you on state benefits?
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Whatsthepoint
04-19-2009, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
I believe your target is 10K meaning you've managed to save a measly 1K. You started your blog six months ago, so lets guess that you started your hijrah plan at least six month earlier, that means it's taken you a year to save 1K and at that rate it'll take another 9 years to reach your target - can I know if you have a regular salary paying job or are you on state benefits?
The blog says he's ben thinking about it for years...
Reply

Woodrow
04-19-2009, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
going in the path of Allah, which according to the overwhelming consensus of the ulema is fard, supporting them with your wealth if possible, subhanallah it is getting to the point where even if you make du'a then that can be taken as encouraging terrorism and so lead to a hefty prison sentence, remember the main evidence against sheikh ali at tamimi was a video of him making du'a for the success of the taliban.
I am reading up on him. It does appear there was an injustice here. I am having difficulty in finding what he was specifically found guilty of.


Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
any by-law you bring in, on a state or local level can be declared illegal by men in washington, as such the laws are beholden to man not to Allah.
Not as easily done as that sounds. Most of the States place too high of a value upon State's rights. While on a federal level there is much opposistion to the Death Penalty for any reason, the Feds have not yet been able to get Texas to abolish it, and Texas does use it quite freely.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i know we can bring in aspects of shariah, but the whole thing, certainly not, they would never allow it.
I wonder about that. The feds don't seem to be very happy over the Amish refusing to pay US taxes, but so far they have been unable to enforce any laws that would prosecute them. Like wise the people on the Rez can be quite anti-US government. Quite evident on Pine Ridge, where the people are all but at armed war with the federal Government and the most recent armed conflict between the feds occurred as recently as February 27, 1973. Americans for the most part are very much opposed to Federal Intervention in local matters.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i know you are well intentioned and we all try our best but it is not even halal to stop in darul kufr when they are at war with the muslims.
but the reality is for most of us born in darul kufr there is little option. It is not always possible to leave where you live. Not only financial and health limitations but other problems also. I can not even visit Pakistan, the Pakistan Embassy refuses to let me into the country, because my old passports show I once visited India, and Israel That was several years ago.( I should mention that was long before I reverted to Islam) when my health was good and I had no major health issues. My son-in-law wanted me to move to Karachi and run his Business there for him. I was not allowed into Pakistan. Today the issues are primarily health and finances.
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Dawud_uk
04-20-2009, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I am reading up on him. It does appear there was an injustice here. I am having difficulty in finding what he was specifically found guilty of.




Not as easily done as that sounds. Most of the States place too high of a value upon State's rights. While on a federal level there is much opposistion to the Death Penalty for any reason, the Feds have not yet been able to get Texas to abolish it, and Texas does use it quite freely.



I wonder about that. The feds don't seem to be very happy over the Amish refusing to pay US taxes, but so far they have been unable to enforce any laws that would prosecute them. Like wise the people on the Rez can be quite anti-US government. Quite evident on Pine Ridge, where the people are all but at armed war with the federal Government and the most recent armed conflict between the feds occurred as recently as February 27, 1973. Americans for the most part are very much opposed to Federal Intervention in local matters.



but the reality is for most of us born in darul kufr there is little option. It is not always possible to leave where you live. Not only financial and health limitations but other problems also. I can not even visit Pakistan, the Pakistan Embassy refuses to let me into the country, because my old passports show I once visited India, and Israel That was several years ago.( I should mention that was long before I reverted to Islam) when my health was good and I had no major health issues. My son-in-law wanted me to move to Karachi and run his Business there for him. I was not allowed into Pakistan. Today the issues are primarily health and finances.
Lo! as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they wrong themselves, (the angels) will ask: In what were ye engaged? They will say: We were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: Was not Allah's earth spacious that ye could have migrated therein? As for such, their habitation will be hell, an evil journey's end;
Except the feeble among men, and the women, and the children, who are unable to devise a plan and are not shown a way.
As for such, it may be that Allah will pardon them. Allah is ever Clement, Forgiving.

Surah an-nisa, verses 97-99

the order is clear to make hijrah out of here, but after that it becomes much more messy and complicated as you rightly point out, not everyone can do it and Allah has spoken of that also.

still the intention should be there.

regarding your problems of visiting, i would have thought being married to a pakistani you would know how this works. basically you need to find someone of influence and then get them to lean on the pakistani authorities for you, that is was before you embraced islam etc etc.

i also get what you are saying regarding shariah in the US, but remember shariah is not just the huddud, the penal code, or the social aspects but includes everything including a economic and state system.

would the US allow a state that not only refused to pay taxes but had its own foreign policy right up to sending money and mujahideen to fight US troops in afghanistan? that enforced the huddud on muslim and kaffir? that abolished the dollar and went back to the gold standard in currency?
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Woodrow
04-20-2009, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

regarding your problems of visiting, i would have thought being married to a pakistani you would know how this works. basically you need to find someone of influence and then get them to lean on the pakistani authorities for you, that is was before you embraced islam etc etc.
It is my youngest Daughter who is married to a Pakistani. My wife is Native American ( Cheyenne tribe) My daughter has no problems going to and from Pakistan, neither do my grandchildren I am the one with the problems. In the past, before I reverted it was legal issues. Pakistan has very strong restrictions on American Citizens going to Pakistan and even more if they intend to establish residency. The cost is prohibitive for most Americans to even think of trying for Pakistan citizenship.

From the Pakistan Embassy here:

"Any person of a country recognised by Pakistan may obtain Pakistani Citizenship by investing a minimum of US$ 0.75 million in tangible assets and $ 0.25 million (or equivalent in major foreign currency) in cash on a non-repatriable basis and by fulfilling the conditions of the Pakistan Citizenship Law. Investment on a non-repatriable basis means that the amount is brought to Pakistan through normal banking channels, converted into rupees, and never remitted back through the free market."

But in any event it is now a moot point. My health and age pretty well have removed my ability to travel out of the country. I even have trouble getting into Canada and the closest city to me is in Canada. I guess most countries see us old disabled folks as a potential burden on their Health Care system I am ineligible for any health care insurance as pre-existing conditions are not covered, my health care is 100% Veterans Administration as I am considered to be 100% disabled and service connected injuries. I am ineligible for any health care except for Military related.
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Erundur
04-20-2009, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
Or a mass exodus from the Swat moving to the west?

I highly doubt it, the Taliban itself is one ethnic tribe anyways, if anything it would be family vs. family.

But if there is a wave of people leaving leaving, I don't believe London can handle all of them.
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GreyKode
04-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Erundur
I highly doubt it, the Taliban itself is one ethnic tribe anyways, if anything it would be family vs. family.

But if there is a wave of people leaving leaving, I don't believe London can handle all of them.
You mean muslims leaving london.
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Erundur
04-20-2009, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
You mean muslims leaving london.
like I originally said in my first post, with the creation of Sharia Law in the SWAT valley, are many muslims mainly pakistanis are going to go back to pakistan under the Islamic rule of the Taliban?

if so...kudos

I would like it if any member from LI went back or someone who posts from the swat valley can tell us the situation that's currently happening.
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Cern
04-22-2009, 07:52 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/as...ban/index.html

Well this is interesting. Looks like the Taliban are at it again. As we know the Pakistan government backed down and allowed Islamic law in Swat. The Taliban decide that isn't good enough and use violence once again to take control of another district in the area. With this new advance they are breaking their own peace deal with the government.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/as....qa/index.html

Consequences are severe; during the Taliban struggle to impose sharia law, anyone found disobeying was pinned to the ground and lashed. Others were beheaded and hung from poles, with notices attached to their bodies that anyone daring to remove the corpse before 48 hours had passed would also be beheaded and hanged.
Why would anyone think this is good or would want to go purposely live there?
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-22-2009, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Cern
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/as...ban/index.html

Well this is interesting. Looks like the Taliban are at it again. As we know the Pakistan government backed down and allowed Islamic law in Swat. The Taliban decide that isn't good enough and use violence once again to take control of another district in the area. With this new advance they are breaking their own peace deal with the government.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/as....qa/index.html



Why would anyone think this is good or would want to go purposely live there?
perhaps you should watch the al-jazeera report i posted the link for also?

also, isnt the west using violence against people because they disagree with the system of laws they want them to use?
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Cern
04-22-2009, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
perhaps you should watch the al-jazeera report i posted the link for also?
I must have missed that. Could you please repost the link?

also, isnt the west using violence against people because they disagree with the system of laws they want them to use?
You need to clarify that statement.

With Afghanistan I would say no. We removed the Taliban that oppressed people and harbored terrorists and allowed the government to return. For me the war, replacement of power and response to a terrorist attack upon my country that also effected many other countries was just. If we were to go back into the area and replace the current government then I would agree with you.

With Iraq the answer is yes and no. For me this war should have never happened without the backing of the world (UN). I felt the war was not just and was part of my ex-presidents personal agenda. But Saddam was a cruel dictator that oppressed, tortured and killed anyone that stood in his way. Because of this Saddam and his government should have been replaced. How and when will always be something that shall be debated.

The Taliban are not freedom fighters. They are terrorists that will oppress, torture and kill anyone that stand in their way. Do I think all countries should be democratic? No, but there are ways to handle things and the way they conduct business makes them no authority to impose any form of law, Islamic or not.
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Cern
04-22-2009, 08:45 PM
I traced back and I found your link.

There is nothing in that report that doesn't surprise me. You have a controversial news agency going into an area controlled by the Taliban and reporting about them. Do you honestly think they or even local residents will speak bad about them when they are toting guns and wearing masks? I am sure the locals will support any form of law when no law is present. I am sure the locals want Shariah law. But I doubt the locals will enjoy what will be imposed upon them once the Taliban settle in and impose their form of Shariah law.
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Cern
04-22-2009, 09:00 PM
I decided to check out the Aljazeera site and see what news story was written about your video. I came across this news post that seems to contradict their own video news broadcast.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...162264694.html

Taliban advance

Earlier, Pakistani officials said that Taliban fighters in Swat had moved into a neighbouring district in what appeared to be a move to expand the region of its control, despite the Swat peace deal.

Hundreds of armed Taliban entered Buner district, only 110km from Islamabad, setting up checkpoints, occupying mosques and ransacking the offices of non-governmental organisations, a local official said.

"The Taliban who have arrived from Swat have increased patrolling, banned music in public transport and rampaged [through] the offices of NGOs and taken their vehicles," Rashid Khan, a government official, said.

A Taliban commander said that they would set up sharia courts in Buner - as they have done in Swat - to end a "sense of deprivation", but would not interfere with police work.

"We will soon establish our radio station. Our Qazis [Islamic judges] will also start holding courts in Buner soon," Mohammad Khalil, a Taliban commander, said.

Muslim Khan, a spokesman for the Pakistani Taliban, speaking from Swat, denied that the government was being challenged in Buner saying that the Taliban was not creating "any hurdle in the administration's work".

Residents 'scared'

But several residents said they felt "scared" and planned to leave the Buner area, fearing similar violence to that in Swat.

The development is likely to trigger further criticism of the government's agreement with fighters in Swat.
In its deal with the Taliban, the government allowed sharia courts in Malakand, a district of about three million people in North West Frontier Province that includes the Swat valley, in order to halt the unrest.

But the Taliban has yet to disarm and its fighters appear to be trying to expand their control.

Meanwhile, in neighbouring Dir district, a senior administration official was kidnapped by "unknown" people, according to another official.
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AbuSalahudeen
04-22-2009, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Thinker
A lot of people will suffer pain and many will die, the lives of many will become a misery and It'll all end in tears. And, the impact will be felt not just by those in the Swat valley and not just by those in the rest of Pakistan but by all Pakistanis all over the world because whether you like it or not and no matter how hard you shout about not being judged by the actions of a few fanatics, and no matter how unjust to you that might be, you will be so judged by their actions by the rest of the world.
Sorry but these are just assumptions, Shariah is beautiful if implemented correctly according to the authenic text of Islam. Many a time Shariah is confused with bad cultural practises like force marriages, honour killings (murderings) and the list goes on. If you want to see real tears, 100s of thousands of deaths and total misery look at those in Iraq who have tasted the Democracy the American Government has brought, and ask the Palestian people what happened when Democratic elections took place and the Government voted in by them cost them the blood of 1000's of innocent country men and women.
Reply

AbuSalahudeen
04-22-2009, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Cern
I must have missed that. Could you please repost the link?



You need to clarify that statement.

With Afghanistan I would say no. We removed the Taliban that oppressed people and harbored terrorists and allowed the government to return. For me the war, replacement of power and response to a terrorist attack upon my country that also effected many other countries was just. If we were to go back into the area and replace the current government then I would agree with you.

With Iraq the answer is yes and no. For me this war should have never happened without the backing of the world (UN). I felt the war was not just and was part of my ex-presidents personal agenda. But Saddam was a cruel dictator that oppressed, tortured and killed anyone that stood in his way. Because of this Saddam and his government should have been replaced. How and when will always be something that shall be debated.

The Taliban are not freedom fighters. They are terrorists that will oppress, torture and kill anyone that stand in their way. Do I think all countries should be democratic? No, but there are ways to handle things and the way they conduct business makes them no authority to impose any form of law, Islamic or not.

The funny thing is Saddam at his WORST was supported by the American Government and was infact supported both financially and with weapons. When Saddam used Chemical Weapons (WMDs) on the Kurds of the North, American totally ignored it and kept open good ties with Saddam, when Saddam used Chemical Weapons on the Iranians during the war between the two nations America still kept good open ties with Saddam. These real displays of WMDs at there worst had zero effect on the United States Government, it was only when Saddam invaded Kuwait, which threatened the American Government steady supply of Oil did they act and cause missary to the people of Iraq. And those sanctions placed on Iraq just made Saddam even stronger and multiplied the suffering of the Iraq people and caused the death of Millions of Iraqs.
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Cern
04-22-2009, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by IbnuFarah
The funny thing is Saddam at his WORST was supported by the American Government and was infact supported both financially and with weapons. When Saddam used Chemical Weapons (WMDs) on the Kurds of the North, American totally ignored it and kept open good ties with Saddam, when Saddam used Chemical Weapons on the Iranians during the war between the two nations America still kept good open ties with Saddam. These real displays of WMDs at there worst had zero effect on the United States Government, it was only when Saddam invaded Kuwait, which threatened the American Government steady supply of Oil did they act and cause missary to the people of Iraq. And those sanctions placed on Iraq just made Saddam even stronger and multiplied the suffering of the Iraq people and caused the death of Millions of Iraqs.
It is easy to just blame the US when neighboring countries also turned a blind eye and let it happen. Keep in mind the first gulf war had a large amount of world support behind it. I am not doubting it wasn't about oil or greed. We should have removed him from power then when we were first their instead of attacking years later in an unjust war. But this thread isn't about US policy but that of Shariah law and the Taliban implementation of it.
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Cern
04-22-2009, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by IbnuFarah
Sorry but these are just assumptions, Shariah is beautiful if implemented correctly according to the authenic text of Islam. Many a time Shariah is confused with bad cultural practises like force marriages, honour killings (murderings) and the list goes on.
Unfortunately there is not one Muslim country that agrees to how it should be implemented. Plus it's bad practices you mentioned and recent new articles doesn't honestly win me over as a non-Muslim or even if I became one. To me its punishment system and attitude towards women is very barbaric and oppressive (depending the country) for modern time.

If you want to see real tears, 100s of thousands of deaths and total misery look at those in Iraq who have tasted the Democracy the American Government has brought, and ask the Palestian people what happened when Democratic elections took place and the Government voted in by them cost them the blood of 1000's of innocent country men and women.
Again this thread isn't about US policy. The Pakistani people made their choice as they saw fit and must live with the outcome. If the Pakistani people wish to no longer be democratic and support a Shariah law system than that is their choice but it shouldn't be because of violence. It's funny watching some of these responses. Very few are condemning the Taliban's actions when they bring chaos to an area as they justify it "bringing order." Seems more people just want to ignore it as long as Shariah law in any form is implemented and turn the tables around towards old news (US War). I would think as Muslims you wouldn't want this type of violence, oppression and system of strict law to be implemented by terrorists but would rather work peacefully to implement a true form of Shariah law and change the worlds narrow image towards Islam and Shariah law.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-23-2009, 05:40 AM
Originally Posted by Cern
I must have missed that. Could you please repost the link?



You need to clarify that statement.

With Afghanistan I would say no. We removed the Taliban that oppressed people and harbored terrorists and allowed the government to return. For me the war, replacement of power and response to a terrorist attack upon my country that also effected many other countries was just. If we were to go back into the area and replace the current government then I would agree with you.

With Iraq the answer is yes and no. For me this war should have never happened without the backing of the world (UN). I felt the war was not just and was part of my ex-presidents personal agenda. But Saddam was a cruel dictator that oppressed, tortured and killed anyone that stood in his way. Because of this Saddam and his government should have been replaced. How and when will always be something that shall be debated.

The Taliban are not freedom fighters. They are terrorists that will oppress, torture and kill anyone that stand in their way. Do I think all countries should be democratic? No, but there are ways to handle things and the way they conduct business makes them no authority to impose any form of law, Islamic or not.
you are ignorant of the situation, the government who replaced the taliban are not the previous afghan government, as bad as they were that would have been preferable to what we have now.

the western government attacks and kills many times more, tortures, murders all those who stand in their way and have done long before 9/11 so that is hardly an excuse.

i'll be honest with you though, this is not a popularity contest, it doesnt matter if the people want shariah or democracy, it is not a debate a muslim can have as this is a muslim land so it is either they accept shariah willingly or the mujahideen will fight.
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-23-2009, 05:43 AM
Originally Posted by Cern
I traced back and I found your link.

There is nothing in that report that doesn't surprise me. You have a controversial news agency going into an area controlled by the Taliban and reporting about them. Do you honestly think they or even local residents will speak bad about them when they are toting guns and wearing masks? I am sure the locals will support any form of law when no law is present. I am sure the locals want Shariah law. But I doubt the locals will enjoy what will be imposed upon them once the Taliban settle in and impose their form of Shariah law.
i agree al-jazeera are contraversial, they are secularists so i dont trust them myself just the same as i dont trust the bbc, cnn, fox or any other secularist network.

but to throw this back at you, do you think any resident would dare speak bad of the west to a western news agency in other parts of the world whilst their troops are there with their guns and tanks and planes and drones? so according to your own logic all that support for the western interventions the neo-cons go on about cannot be relied upon to be true can it?
Reply

Dawud_uk
04-23-2009, 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by Cern
Unfortunately there is not one Muslim country that agrees to how it should be implemented. Plus it's bad practices you mentioned and recent new articles doesn't honestly win me over as a non-Muslim or even if I became one. To me its punishment system and attitude towards women is very barbaric and oppressive (depending the country) for modern time.



Again this thread isn't about US policy. The Pakistani people made their choice as they saw fit and must live with the outcome. If the Pakistani people wish to no longer be democratic and support a Shariah law system than that is their choice but it shouldn't be because of violence. It's funny watching some of these responses. Very few are condemning the Taliban's actions when they bring chaos to an area as they justify it "bringing order." Seems more people just want to ignore it as long as Shariah law in any form is implemented and turn the tables around towards old news (US War). I would think as Muslims you wouldn't want this type of violence, oppression and system of strict law to be implemented by terrorists but would rather work peacefully to implement a true form of Shariah law and change the worlds narrow image towards Islam and Shariah law.
it is a war, there is inevitably some lives lost, i wouldnt ask you to judge the results now but in a few years time when things have settled down.

btw, large numbers of those killed were not killed by the taliban but by the army who bombed whole towns and villages for supporting the taliban, causing the refugee crisis, it is this war the people flee from not the actual taliban themselves.
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SirZubair
04-23-2009, 08:55 AM
Insha'allah ALL goes well, and it will eventually, through Allah (swt)'s Mercy.
Reply

Cern
04-23-2009, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
but to throw this back at you, do you think any resident would dare speak bad of the west to a western news agency in other parts of the world whilst their troops are there with their guns and tanks and planes and drones? so according to your own logic all that support for the western interventions the neo-cons go on about cannot be relied upon to be true can it?
Which Western country are you using as an example? If we us the US then yes. One can stand in the face of the army and report what ever they want. It is call Freedom of the Press and a Constitution right as long as no laws are broken.
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Dawud_uk
04-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by Cern
Which Western country are you using as an example? If we us the US then yes. One can stand in the face of the army and report what ever they want. It is call Freedom of the Press and a Constitution right as long as no laws are broken.
sorry, nearly fell of my chair reading that one. you know even when i was a non-muslim i knew the independence of the press to be laughable.

but what i was referring to were the people the west is occupying, do you really think your media gives you the full picture? do you really feel the people there are going to tell the western media exactly what it thinks of their nation when the media will go away and western soldiers remain?
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Cern
04-23-2009, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
do you really think your media gives you the full picture?
Nope, that is why I use multiple news sources. I tend to subscribe from various parts of the world so I can gain a better perspective of a news event. I will agree that each news agency has their own agendas and will only report in their designated perspective for their targeted audience.

do you really feel the people there are going to tell the western media exactly what it thinks of their nation when the media will go away and western soldiers remain?
Yes, but that is my opinion. But again you are not giving much of an example to which Western country and what they are occupying. Do I think all Western counties share the same practices? No.
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Dawud_uk
04-24-2009, 06:07 AM
Originally Posted by Cern
Nope, that is why I use multiple news sources. I tend to subscribe from various parts of the world so I can gain a better perspective of a news event. I will agree that each news agency has their own agendas and will only report in their designated perspective for their targeted audience.



Yes, but that is my opinion. But again you are not giving much of an example to which Western country and what they are occupying. Do I think all Western counties share the same practices? No.
no i agree, not all western countries are seen in the same way, when i travelled to france when younger it struck me as odd that resturants would display the french, the british and canadian flags but rarely the US one.

it was due to the way french soldiers behaved towards the local women, in the few months after the normandy landings there were over 5000 reports of rape made against US servicemen, and as we know rape is massively under reported, this figure only came out recently when a historian was examining declassified files.

but to get back to the point, do you think a CNN or BBC reporter in kabul is going to get a true picture of the views of the afghan people when the soldiers are there as their bodyguards and will still be there when the reporter is long gone?
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Foxhole
04-24-2009, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i'll be honest with you though, this is not a popularity contest, it doesnt matter if the people want shariah or democracy, it is not a debate a muslim can have as this is a muslim land so it is either they accept shariah willingly or the mujahideen will fight.
Thank you for the quote. I get so sick of people denying that Muslims feel this way.
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Dawud_uk
04-24-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Foxhole
Thank you for the quote. I get so sick of people denying that Muslims feel this way.
part of islam is telling the truth, i will never ever hide the truth from people because calling to Allah based on a lie doesnt work, only leads people to become confused later.

if you are honest with people, tell them upfront what is true and what is a lie and they respect that honesty, they might not like the message but without that honesty and respect you cannot have a good discussion that will lead somewhere productive or meaningful.
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wth1257
04-24-2009, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
sorry, nearly fell of my chair reading that one. you know even when i was a non-muslim i knew the independence of the press to be laughable.

but what i was referring to were the people the west is occupying, do you really think your media gives you the full picture? do you really feel the people there are going to tell the western media exactly what it thinks of their nation when the media will go away and western soldiers remain?
you live in the UK. The United States has much sronger press freedom laws. For example the Pentagon Papers. Now granted the press often functions in a propagandistic role but the institutional protections are there.
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Dawud_uk
04-25-2009, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by wth1257
you live in the UK. The United States has much sronger press freedom laws. For example the Pentagon Papers. Now granted the press often functions in a propagandistic role but the institutional protections are there.
the ones who own the newspapers are in with the same crowd as the ones who run everything else, that is true in every country and it is foolish to pretend otherwise.
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wth1257
04-25-2009, 06:53 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
the ones who own the newspapers are in with the same crowd as the ones who run everything else, that is true in every country and it is foolish to pretend otherwise.
DemocracyNow? Noam Chomsky?

The News was never neutral, but in the United States at least the idea that the news was supposed to be impartial is a 20th century phenomena. Now even in the corporate media there is greater diversity emergind. Most owners of news stations don't have an agenda, at least not one that runs afoul of buisness. The corporate media pushed Bush and his wars after 9/11 because to do otherwise would cost them viewers and bring popular wrath down upon them. However the media is still free from government control for the most part. The corporate media isin't all that's out there. DemocracyNow still sends out a daily show. When Seymour Hersh broke the abu ghraib story the government could ask the media to not publish the stories, but they could not force them to refrain from publishing them. Just because we have a bad press does not mean we do not have a free press. And the bad press is not the totality of American press.
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Dawud_uk
04-25-2009, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by wth1257
DemocracyNow? Noam Chomsky?

The News was never neutral, but in the United States at least the idea that the news was supposed to be impartial is a 20th century phenomena. Now even in the corporate media there is greater diversity emergind. Most owners of news stations don't have an agenda, at least not one that runs afoul of buisness. The corporate media pushed Bush and his wars after 9/11 because to do otherwise would cost them viewers and bring popular wrath down upon them. However the media is still free from government control for the most part. The corporate media isin't all that's out there. DemocracyNow still sends out a daily show. When Seymour Hersh broke the abu ghraib story the government could ask the media to not publish the stories, but they could not force them to refrain from publishing them. Just because we have a bad press does not mean we do not have a free press. And the bad press is not the totality of American press.
i agree it is not the totality, but it is the bit that the vast majority use and rely upon for telling them what is going on.
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wth1257
04-25-2009, 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i agree it is not the totality, but it is the bit that the vast majority use and rely upon for telling them what is going on.
Unfortunatly that is quite true.

One good thing out of the competition amongst the major corporate news networks is that they start to expose each other. Like when Fox and MSNBC deconstruct the others propagandistic tactics. Unfortunatly few Americans watch both Fox and MSNBC or apply that information to the larger media context.
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Dawud_uk
04-25-2009, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by wth1257
Unfortunatly that is quite true.

One good thing out of the competition amongst the major corporate news networks is that they start to expose each other. Like when Fox and MSNBC deconstruct the others propagandistic tactics. Unfortunatly few Americans watch both Fox and MSNBC or apply that information to the larger media context.
hence why every morning i will read the headlines in the bbc, daily telegraph, guardian and independent.

if you want to find the truth you need to look at it from all different angles, i am not completely blind on this issue.
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wth1257
04-25-2009, 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
hence why every morning i will read the headlines in the bbc, daily telegraph, guardian and independent.

if you want to find the truth you need to look at it from all different angles, i am not completely blind on this issue.
I was not trying to suggust you were, just making a general observation.
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AntiKarateKid
04-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by wth1257
Unfortunatly that is quite true.

One good thing out of the competition amongst the major corporate news networks is that they start to expose each other. Like when Fox and MSNBC deconstruct the others propagandistic tactics. Unfortunatly few Americans watch both Fox and MSNBC or apply that information to the larger media context.
This is why Comedy Central and the Daily Show with Jon Stewart exist! :D

I disagree with his use of profanity and pro-gay views but he does a good job of tearing the "news" networks down, ESPECIALLY Fox "News".
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