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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-17-2009, 03:19 AM
Ok so I have admited there are things that would help me change my mind. Well before all that here is one of my biggest hinderence in beilving God. How is that God has alwasy existed. Also if God could have alwasy existed why can the universe have not always existed.
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Woodrow
04-17-2009, 04:13 AM
That is a very good question. One difficulty we have with understanding is that by being in the created world we are limited to that which was created and our concepts are related to what we see and feel and can measure. we need to first grasp a concept that all of existence is not within this physical domain we call call the universe.

the field of mathematics has some good analogies. While we can not see, or measure anything in the fourth dimension, we are capable of doing mathematical calculations based upon 4th dimension factors. we can calculate the dimensions of a 4th dimensional cube, but we can not draw one or even visualize what one would look like.

the field of quntum Physics is coming up with findings that seem to indicate we need to change our concepts about time, matter and space. Not every action produces a reaction, it seems that in the hidden world of Quantum thought there are reactions that can take place with out an action and simultaneous existence of more then one object being in the same place at the same time.

we have much to learn and a long ways to go before we can even minutely understand the implications of non-physical existence. to begin to grasp how God(swt) can exist without a beginning we have to break out of the limitations of physical thought and our concepts, limitations of time/space and matter.
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burdenofbeing
04-17-2009, 04:17 AM
I've written something in another forum, which covers this as well. I think you could find it useful:

"Again the problem is in our plane of existance, and how it's different than god's. Imagine you have a simulation game. You also have a timeline in this game. You can move it forward, backward, pause. The simulated creatures have a form of free will, and they practice so. At any time, you could move forward in time and know what he would be doing. Knowing what he does eventually, and the creature having free will is not contradictory.

This also explains the question of time, which many thinking people come up with. How can something exist before infinity of time? Again by this simulation example, setting the simulated reality's 'beginning_of_time' value to infinity would make the reality in that world to be starting in infinite, even though the simulation had an exact starting point in god's dimension of reality."
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-17-2009, 04:25 AM
Quran tell us God has always existed and there never was a time He did not exit. As such, He is the Eternal, without beginning and without end. He is the only creator and sustainer of all that exists and nothing and no one exists alongside Him, nor does He have any partners. He tells us, He is not created, nor is He like His creation in anyway.
He always has existed and He never was created, as He is not like His creation, nor similar to it, in any way.
The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) explained the devil would come to a person and ask them questions about creation; "Who created this or that?" to which the reply would be; "Allah" until he would ask; "Who created Allah?" At this stage the prophet advised us to drop this train of thought. Obviously, God - the real God, must be eternal and not have to be created.
The Quran tells us:
Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (There is no god to worship except Him), the Ever Living, the Sustainer and Protector of all that exists. He doesn't get tired and He doesn't sleep. Everything in the universe belongs to Him. Who then, could intercede between Him and his creatures without His Permission? He Knows everything about them and they have no knowledge except as He wills. His kursi (stool or chair) extends over the entire universe and He doesn't get tired of guarding and preserving it. He is Most High, the Most Great.
[This Verse is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.] [Noble Quran 2:255]
This verse truly presents the comprehensive representation of God in a way without trying to define Him by comparing Him to His creation, but rather as being the Absolute in all of His Attributes and Characteristics.
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-17-2009, 05:38 AM
the Quran tell us God has always existed and there never was a time He did not exit. As such, He is the Eternal, without beginning and without end. He is the only creator and sustainer of all that exists and nothing and no one exists alongside Him, nor does He have any partners. He tells us, He is not created, nor is He like His creation in anyway. He calls Himself by a number of names and three of them are:

The First - (Al-Awal)
The Last - (Al Akhir)
The Eternal and the One who is sought after by His creation, while He has no need from them at all. (As-Samad)
He is not a man and He has no progeny or offspring.
He is not what He creates nor is He compared to it.

He always has existed and He never was created, as He is not like His creation, nor similar to it, in any way.

The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) explained the devil would come to a person and ask them questions about creation; "Who created this or that?" to which the reply would be; "Allah" until he would ask; "Who created Allah?" At this stage the prophet advised us to drop this train of thought. Obviously, God - the real God, must be eternal and not have to be created.

The Quran tells us:
Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (There is no god to worship except Him), the Ever Living, the Sustainer and Protector of all that exists. He doesn't get tired and He doesn't sleep. Everything in the universe belongs to Him. Who then, could intercede between Him and his creatures without His Permission? He Knows everything about them and they have no knowledge except as He wills. His kursi (stool or chair) extends over the entire universe and He doesn't get tired of guarding and preserving it. He is Most High, the Most Great.

[This Verse is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.] [Noble Quran 2:255]


This verse truly presents the comprehensive representation of God in a way without trying to define Him by comparing Him to His creation, but rather as being the Absolute in all of His Attributes and Characteristics.

So Allah (God) was always existed never was a time He wasnt Cant no one tell you otherwise. Try to read the Quran and get a better understanding of your Lord the One who created you.
May Allah guide us ALL and keep us on the right path! Ameen
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Dawud_uk
04-17-2009, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Ok so I have admited there are things that would help me change my mind. Well before all that here is one of my biggest hinderence in beilving God. How is that God has alwasy existed. Also if God could have alwasy existed why can the universe have not always existed.
this is called the argument of infinate regression, basically goes like this...

energy and matter cannot be created from nothing, it can be changed but neither created or destroyed. this is a fundemental law of physics.

hence you need to ask the physics prof. in that case where does all the energy and matter come from to make the big bang as according to your own rules it is not possible.

hence why some physicists today are leaving disbelief, even hawkings calls himself a cautious agnostic not an atheist anymore because of this and simular reasoning.

regarding your 2nd point, let me put it to you a different way...

many hindus literally people the earth rests on top of a giant turtle... silly i know but keep with me on this one, now when asked in that case what is below the turtle they will say another turtle, and another and another, turtles all the way 'down'

you see the problem? same with the idea that energy and matter could have existed forever, it is logically and scientifically impossible, as silly as turtles all the way down but many scientists hold this position precisely because to deny it means the necessity of a creator.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-18-2009, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
you see the problem? same with the idea that energy and matter could have existed forever, it is logically and scientifically impossible, as silly as turtles all the way down but many scientists hold this position precisely because to deny it means the necessity of a creator.
How is it as silly? What is illogical about energey always existing. *i'll get in to theories that explain always existing and the big bang latter* Why can't energy and matter have always existed? Why is God immune to this?
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Dawud_uk
04-22-2009, 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
How is it as silly? What is illogical about energey always existing. *i'll get in to theories that explain always existing and the big bang latter* Why can't energy and matter have always existed? Why is God immune to this?
it is an impossibility according to science, logic and even yes religion also.

matter can become energy, energy can become matter, but you cannot create or destroy energy or matter only move it from one state to the next.

logically therefore something much have created this, if this something, this creator was subject to the same it wouldnt be the creator as would be part of the creation.

therefore the first, the originator, the creator is distinct and outside these laws.
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