Has a Happy Person Ever Become Atheist?

[Trumble]

If you'd like to continue to imply that because I disagree with you on a particular example, I also necessarily disagree with every authority on every example, and am therefore wrong, go for it. It's quite amusing.

I am pleased you are amused. However, on re-reading your remarks it is clear either that your comment was intended to be a general one or that your phrasing left quite a lot to be desired.

You're missing the point. It would be intellectually dishonest to stop questioning simply because you find no answers in the immediate vicinity.

I don't know what point I am supposed to missing, but I'm delighted to see you actually GET the point of the whole exercise! Now maybe you could tell Gossamer skye. :)

You're also missing the point that it does not appear that Joe98 even intended for this to be a thought experiment.

You are suggesting this pie actually exists? Now that IS amusing :D . Of course he intended it to be a thought experiment. The only question is how far he, and indeed Gossamer skye, intended to portray the whole pie scenario as simulation of a potential real life event. I would have thought the obvious answer was "not very", although they may choose to disagree.

[Muezzin]

I am pleased you are amused. However, on re-reading your remarks it is clear either that your comment was intended to be a general one or that your phrasing left quite a lot to be desired.

Probably. A lot like this silly apple pie example.

I don't know what point I am supposed to missing, but I'm delighted to see you actually GET the point of the whole exercise!

Oh, I saw the point of the whole exercise. It's still a badly structured hypothetical situation, because if one discovered a phantom apple pie next to a holy book, one would simply not conclude that God must have made it. Yes, yes, that's the point, it's exposing a flawed principle, except I don't really see anyone subscribing to that principle, in thought or otherwise.

A better example would have been 'supposing nobody in the world ever owns up to baking this apple pie, and supposing nobody in the world ever saw anybody else baking the apple pie, would it be reasonable to assume that God Himself baked it?'

You are suggesting this pie actually exists? Now that IS amusing :D

I skipped breakfast.

Of course he intended it to be a thought experiment.

I was trying to give him some credit. It's such a bad hypothetical situation he couldn't possibly have intended it to be regarded with any degree of seriousness. The engine of thought experiments is illumination rather than ridicule.

[جوري]

I don't know what point I am supposed to missing, but I'm delighted to see you actually GET the point of the whole exercise! Now maybe you could tell Gossamer skye. :)

I love how you often find an alternate route to assert a non-point.
whether bombastic, satirical or by third party understanding.

Knowing what you know of 'how' apple pies come to be, you'd not dismiss an apple pie that is cooling by your window as a multiple chance event, especially if it had few burnt crusty edges.

The universe and all therein is no different in one regard (only) it isn't a multiple chance event to yield a perfect outcome or what some of you deem an askew outcome -- the only difference is, whereas you know how pies are made, you actually have no idea how the universe was made.. (you theorize) your theories are beliefs given that they are not supported by experimental & physical outcome. If you can't find a viable resolution, you'd rather deem it (whatever it is you want to deem it) than accept the obvious.. and that fails you on two grounds:

1- you have neither conceded your surrender like those who have tread the path before you (because well they are all ignorant) God of the gaps or whatever other bull **** you sedate yourselves through life with.
2- Nor have not provided an executable, practical solution to how it all came to be, one that isn't only logical but reproducible and preferably puts all under the principle of parsimony. Only the hope that science will someday avail you!

I have no idea why this circuitous route, you are like a deer caught in the headlight, except waiting for the one opportunity where you'd not only overcome death but pounce and seek revenge and the hilarity of it all, is it isn't your battle to win, if only the good atheist had come up with a better simile, perhaps this would have evolved better to your advantage..

all the best

[fawad]

While procrastinating during my study time I was thinking...

How come I have never heard an atheist say, I was outside on a beautiful summers day gazing at the greenery when I said to myself, "There is no God."

It always seems to be:

1. I saw suffering
2. These people acted evil and hurt me or someone else
3. The world is a bad place
4. There can't be anything on the other side, we're just animals and will turn to dust.

On the contrary, people who become Muslims or Christians mention:

1. Someone did good to me or someone else
2. The heavens and the earth so beautiful and complex
3. There has to be something out there, we're not just animals, we have eternal souls.


Seems like more often than not, atheism sprouts from negativity, while theism from positivity.

Now you may say that you "logically arrived" at atheism, but new theists would say the exact same thing about their views. This doesn't change the pattern of negativity and positivity that I mentioned above.

Well there are a lot of counter-examples to what you are saying. For example, many African Americans in the US convert to Islam in Jail when they are suffering or in a bad place. Similarly, 'born-again' Christians also result because of some incident like an injury, an accident, an illness, etc.

You cannot statistically associate a state-of-mind with the start of the changing process towards a particular religion or belief

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[fawad]

I do not think that a Atheist can be happy, sure they can have a family life as normal as everyone, and think they are happy, but inside there will always be somethig missing, God.And when they get to the end of the road they will regret.One can not dismiss the existence of god, it is illogical in my opinion.

Lots of athiests are happy just like lots of believers are happy. Why would you say or how would you know if someone is happy or not?

I am very happy with what I believe and I suppose you're too with what you believe in,no?

[AntiKarateKid]

Well there are a lot of counter-examples to what you are saying. For example, many African Americans in the US convert to Islam in Jail when they are suffering or in a bad place. Similarly, 'born-again' Christians also result because of some incident like an injury, an accident, an illness, etc.

You cannot statistically associate a state-of-mind with the start of the changing process towards a particular religion or belief

I don't think you got my point though.

Many atheists say "I saw/underwent all this suffering, and If God existed there wouldn't be suffering, so I became an atheist" or something along those lines.

A person converting to Islam in jail doesn't use the suffering part as a reason for their reversion. We don't say, we saw suffering so we became Muslim.

[fawad]

I don't think you got my point though.

Many atheists say "I saw/underwent all this suffering, and If God existed there wouldn't be suffering, so I became an atheist" or something along those lines.

A person converting to Islam in jail doesn't use the suffering part as a reason for their reversion. We don't say, we saw suffering so we became Muslim.

Well, that could be your opinion but not a fact. Do you have any statistical study to back up your claim? Because I can claim the opposite of that but that won't make it any better?

Most people I have met (including myself) believe in atheism when they question what is being taught to them and research on it and find no or hollow answers. Basically, you have to be convinced of something to be a true believer in it, otherwise its just a son of a muslim being a muslim and a son of a christian being a christian, and that of an athiest being an atheist.

Even those born again guys think deeply and question what they have been believing before coming to that conclusion and then believing it strongly as opposed to just believing it as a routine.

[AntiKarateKid]

Well, that could be your opinion but not a fact. Do you have any statistical study to back up your claim? Because I can claim the opposite of that but that won't make it any better?

It is not a matter of statistics. It makes absolutely no sense Islamically for anyone to claim that the existence of suffering was the cause of their belief. While on the contrary, atheist have made up arguments such as the problem of evil which center around things like suffering. The two sides are hardly even, and if you need statistics to tell you the blindingly obvious, I'm not sure this discussion will go anywhere.

Most people I have met (including myself) believe in atheism when they question what is being taught to them and research on it and find no or hollow answers. Basically, you have to be convinced of something to be a true believer in it, otherwise its just a son of a muslim being a muslim and a son of a christian being a christian, and that of an athiest being an atheist.

My point exactly. They saw suffering and think that there was no reason for it.

Even those born again guys think deeply and question what they have been believing before coming to that conclusion and then believing it strongly as opposed to just believing it as a routine.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to what we are discussing, namely the reason and not the process.

[fawad]

It is not a matter of statistics. It makes absolutely no sense Islamically for anyone to claim that the existence of suffering was the cause of their belief. While on the contrary, atheist have made up arguments such as the problem of evil which center around things like suffering. The two sides are hardly even, and if you need statistics to tell you the blindingly obvious, I'm not sure this discussion will go anywhere.

I think you have a pre-determined stance on what other people think. I don't know how many people have visited this forum or those whom you have had contact with and what they told you.

That's why I asked if you are basing your comment on statistics or what?

My point exactly. They saw suffering and think that there was no reason for it.

But that is your opinion. I never even mentioned anything about suffering at all. Its funny you're trying to tell me what I think or what I saw which I did not.

What I am saying is not what you said so how could it be your point exactly? You're bring the words "they saw suffering" which I never mentioned or implied. No, my decision has nothing to do with seeing any sufferings.

I'm not sure how this is relevant to what we are discussing, namely the reason and not the process.

Its relevant because contrary to what you are saying, there exists many people who either converted or reverted to Islam (or other religions) because they experienced some suffering when they made this decision and tried to console themselves or find a way out of that. This is contradictory to what you are saying that "happy people" convert to Islam and "not happy people" go to other religions or athiesm.

[AntiKarateKid]

I think you have a pre-determined stance on what other people think. I don't know how many people have visited this forum or those whom you have had contact with and what they told you.

That's why I asked if you are basing your comment on statistics or what?

Show me where I said this was your opinion. In addition to this, I've stated that it makes no sense in the Islamic concept but atheists have used it.

But that is your opinion. I never even mentioned anything about suffering at all. Its funny you're trying to tell me what I think or what I saw which I did not.

See above.

What I am saying is not what you said so how could it be your point exactly? You're bring the words "they saw suffering" which I never mentioned or implied. No, my decision has nothing to do with seeing any sufferings.

See above.

Its relevant because contrary to what you are saying, there exists many people who either converted or reverted to Islam (or other religions) because they experienced some suffering when they made this decision and tried to console themselves or find a way out of that. This is contradictory to what you are saying that "happy people" convert to Islam and "not happy people" go to other religions or athiesm.

I'm repeating myself now.

The existence of suffering and evil is one of the reasons people choose to become atheists because they think that if there was a benevolent God, stuff liek that wouldn't happen. See, again, "the problem of evil" which has been used to attack theists by atheists. The existence of suffering doesn't lead a person to believe. Rather, belief would help them persevere.

You see that in one case suffering is the reason (atheists) and in the other suffering is not the reason (theists).

[fawad]

Thankyou for completely ignoring my last post! Really, I enjoy repeating myself.

The existence of suffering and evil is one of the reasons people choose to become atheists because they think that if there was a benevolent God, stuff liek that wouldn't happen. See, again, "the problem of evil" which has been used to attack theists by atheists. The existence of suffering doesn't lead a person to believe. Rather, belief would help them persevere.

You see that in one case suffering is the reason (atheists) and in the other suffering is not the reason (theists).

Here's what I am getting from whatever you have mentioned so far

...You are saying that atheists do not believe in god because there is so much suffering and they say that if there was a god, how could there be so much suffering?....

If that is what you meant, then I am afraid I do not agree with you.

[Pygoscelis]

I think I've met more atheists and spoken to them about their apostacy than most here. I have met extremely few that mentioned suffering in the world as a reason for their loss of faith, and hundreds that lost faith due to questioning, reading the holy texts, and just not being able to believe it anymore.

Read Bruce Husberger and Bob Altmeyer's book "Amazing Conversions". They did a big study on exactly this with thousands of apostates and converts. I don't think it suprises too many people what they found. They essentially found that converts feel their way into religion and apostates think their way out of it. Most converts found joy in their conversion and most apostates found pain (but a feeling of being honest with oneself) in their deconversion. Both reported the experience to be "Freeing".

Although the problem of evil is an argument atheists use (and a pretty darn good one if the God is claimed to be both all-loving and all-powerful), it is rarely the reason for apostacy.

[Trumble]

Its relevant because contrary to what you are saying, there exists many people who either converted or reverted to Islam (or other religions) because they experienced some suffering when they made this decision and tried to console themselves or find a way out of that. This is contradictory to what you are saying that "happy people" convert to Islam and "not happy people" go to other religions or athiesm.

Indeed. If we are talking about the 'obvious' clearly many people have come to a theistic belief, or retained faith in same because they are looking for some reason or ultimate purpose in their lives - and the more unpleasant that life currently is, the more that need is there. Similarly ideas of an afterlife in heaven or paradise provide motivation to just keep moving on in the current life when otherwise you would just give up.

Certainly many theists think along the lines suggested by AntiKarateKid, but it is far from 'blindingly obvious' that they all do. Certainly in a historical context, when life was usually just a struggle to survive, the opposite would seem far more likely.

[AntiKarateKid]

Here's what I am getting from whatever you have mentioned so far

...You are saying that atheists do not believe in god because there is so much suffering and they say that if there was a god, how could there be so much suffering?....

If that is what you meant, then I am afraid I do not agree with you.

I said some atheists. Do you deny that?

[Gubbleknucker]

The existence of suffering and evil is one of the reasons people choose to become atheists because they think that if there was a benevolent God, stuff liek that wouldn't happen. See, again, "the problem of evil" which has been used to attack theists by atheists.

While that is a common argument people make once they are already atheists, it is rarely the reason people cease to believe or never believe at all.

It seems likely to me that atheists know more about being atheists than theists do.
"The problem of evil" has never been a deciding factor in my life.
In fact, my life has been quite sheltered.

The existence of suffering doesn't lead a person to believe. Rather, belief would help them persevere.

More often I see people becoming angry at their chosen deity.

I'm repeating myself now.

Yes, you are, and it it is not necessary. The only thing that this kind of repetition can accomplish is an endless cycle of assumptions clashing against experience.

[Clover]

I am pretty happy, and I don't believe in any specific god.

[AntiKarateKid]

I am pretty happy, and I don't believe in any specific god.

I'd venture to say you are an agnostic. But we are talking about atheists (absolutely no God whatsoever)

[GuestFellow]

Well many Atheists I know look happy to me in a sense that they do whatever they want. Some of them complain about if God existed, why do he allow all the pain and suffering in the world. They did confess that is why they stopped believing in God.

Whether they are upset or not, I haven't got a clue. Though they get very defensive when I happen to question them about existence of God or talk about life after death. I guess they are quite sensitive.

I get the impression they are upset with God. Otherwise they wouldn't get defensive or sensitive about it. To be upset with God, that means you have to believe in him? :/

[Clover]

I'd venture to say you are an agnostic. But we are talking about atheists (absolutely no God whatsoever)

I don't believen a god, or a higher power. So I am pretty sure I qualify for Atheist, even though I stay away from most cause too many seek spiritual wars, I prefer to look at peace in religions.

I think it's silly to say they are all un-happy, I mean, the OP doesn't know every person reverted/converted to Atheism, so why make a claim like that? To prove Islam is right? That's silly, if your religion is true, then you shouldn't have to prove it, just let people see it, and find the truth. I don't try to prove Taoism or Shinto, cause I don't care what others think. If they think Kami, are just Satan in disguise, good for them, cause at least I am not a prick about it.

[Gubbleknucker]

Guestfellow, I don't see how anything you said applies to me at all.

I'd venture to say you are an agnostic. But we are talking about atheists (absolutely no God whatsoever)

Most atheists consider themselves agnostic to some extent.

I don't know, and I don't believe, so that makes me an agnostic atheist.

Agnosticism is not some middle ground between theism and atheism, in fact, the term agnostic is pretty non-descriptive. All it means is "without knowledge."

[AntiKarateKid]

Guestfellow, I don't see how anything you said applies to me at all.



Most atheists consider themselves agnostic to some extent.

I don't know, and I don't believe, so that makes me an agnostic atheist.

Agnosticism is not some middle ground between theism and atheism, in fact, the term agnostic is pretty non-descriptive. All it means is "without knowledge."

I don't think that makes any sense. An atheist cannot be an agnostic at the same time. That would violate the definition of atheism. Though he could be a weak atheist.

[AntiKarateKid]

I don't believen a god, or a higher power. So I am pretty sure I qualify for Atheist, even though I stay away from most cause too many seek spiritual wars, I prefer to look at peace in religions.

I think it's silly to say they are all un-happy, I mean, the OP doesn't know every person reverted/converted to Atheism, so why make a claim like that? To prove Islam is right? That's silly, if your religion is true, then you shouldn't have to prove it, just let people see it, and find the truth. I don't try to prove Taoism or Shinto, cause I don't care what others think. If they think Kami, are just Satan in disguise, good for them, cause at least I am not a prick about it.

Ah ok. I assumed since you said "any specific god". Anyways, the claim was a simple thought. I'm not sure how that could be used to prove Islam at all. And anyways, I personally see it as selfish if you believe there to be truth in what you follow yet keep it to yourself instead of propagating it. In essence, "wanting for your brother, what you want for yourself" is not complete f you don't want your brother to know the truth. And obviously your supposed to spread it in a "non-in your face" or "prickish" way. Letting people see it is good but there not be any aversion to proving it to people whoa re willing to listen.

[Clover]

Ah ok. I assumed since you said "any specific god". Anyways, the claim was a simple thought. I'm not sure how that could be used to prove Islam at all. And anyways, I personally see it as selfish if you believe there to be truth in what you follow yet keep it to yourself instead of propagating it. In essence, "wanting for your brother, what you want for yourself" is not complete f you don't want your brother to know the truth. And obviously your supposed to spread it in a "non-in your face" or "prickish" way. Letting people see it is good but there not be any aversion to proving it to people whoa re willing to listen.

It can. If you say everyone who becomes a Atheist is sad, then obviously, your saying keep them as theists, and Islam is a pretty big spot in that realm, as you know.

I don't care if you see it as selfish. I don't think your gonna burn in the pits of hell for a lifetime cause you don't believe what I do, so why should I warn you about something I don't believe?

Your not supposed to do anything. You can do what you want, if you choose to do what a prophet says, power to you.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I don't think that makes any sense. An atheist cannot be an agnostic at the same time. That would violate the definition of atheism. Though he could be a weak atheist.

An atheist isn't necessarily someone who says "I know there's no god", it tends to be someone who says "I believe there's no god".

So Gubbleknucker is right: "Most atheists consider themselves agnostic to some extent."

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

It can. If you say everyone who becomes a Atheist is sad, then obviously, your saying keep them as theists, and Islam is a pretty big spot in that realm, as you know.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. But I'll say this, many of the reasons atheists use to explain how they became an atheist are rooted in disappointment/grief/or anger. I don't have time right now for examples but you can simply read the posts in this thread for starters.

I don't care if you see it as selfish. I don't think your gonna burn in the pits of hell for a lifetime cause you don't believe what I do, so why should I warn you about something I don't believe?

If you follow Tao, I'd assume there to be something good in it. If there is good in it, the world can benefit from it. And if the world can benefit from it, you should share it.

Your not supposed to do anything. You can do what you want, if you choose to do what a prophet says, power to you.

You CAN do anything, but there are things you aren't supposed to do. Anyways, doesn't this statement imply that people don't have any real purpose in life? It would be sad if the world decided it wasn't supposed to be good and could do whatever they wanted. But in reality, all roads are not equal.

[Gubbleknucker]

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

If you know something exists, you pretty much have to believe in it.

If you don't know something exists, you can choose to believe in it or not to believe in it. That means an agnostic can be either a theist or an atheist.


You seem to be confused with terminology:

The root of the word "agnostic" is knowledge- the prefix "a" means "without."

An agnostic is simply without knowledge--in this case, knowledge regarding the existence of God.


Few atheists claim to know for certain that there is no god, so they are agnostics.

[Clover]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. But I'll say this, many of the reasons atheists use to explain how they became an atheist are rooted in disappointment/grief/or anger. I don't have time right now for examples but you can simply read the posts in this thread for starters.



If you follow Tao, I'd assume there to be something good in it. If there is good in it, the world can benefit from it. And if the world can benefit from it, you should share it.



You CAN do anything, but there are things you aren't supposed to do. Anyways, doesn't this statement imply that people don't have any real purpose in life? It would be sad if the world decided it wasn't supposed to be good and could do whatever they wanted. But in reality, all roads are not equal.

Tao isn't anything like a god. Tao is Everything and Nothing. I don't follow it. I know it's there.

My point is this. A man can be good or evil, or both. A man doesn't have to be good cause it's good, or evil cause it's evil. We all have choices. I could become a murderer or a devout pacifist.

[AntiKarateKid]

Tao isn't anything like a god. Tao is Everything and Nothing. I don't follow it. I know it's there.

I never said it was a god. Whatever it is, you follow a specific lifestyle and have labeled yourself Taoist. You must have chosen it for a reason which has to have benefited you in some way. So if you'd like to see the world become a better place, why should you not share the lessons and benefits that Taoism gave you?

My point is this. A man can be good or evil, or both. A man doesn't have to be good cause it's good, or evil cause it's evil. We all have choices. I could become a murderer or a devout pacifist.

Are you suggesting that a man could be "good" because it's evil? :? I don't understand your third sentence. And I did not deny the element of choice so I am not sure what you are arguing.

[Clover]

I never said it was a god. Whatever it is, you follow a specific lifestyle and have labeled yourself Taoist. You must have chosen it for a reason which has to have benefited you in some way. So if you'd like to see the world become a better place, why should you not share the lessons and benefits that Taoism gave you?



Are you suggesting that a man could be "good" because it's evil? :? I don't understand your third sentence. And I did not deny the element of choice so I am not sure what you are arguing.

Cause it would get me banned from here :statisfie

I am telling you, society says good is good, so we should do it. That is stupid. Men will do what they want, we can only try to influence that decision.

[GuestFellow]

My point is this. A man can be good or evil, or both. A man doesn't have to be good cause it's good, or evil cause it's evil. We all have choices. I could become a murderer or a devout pacifist.

Ah I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this? :hmm:

Are you talking about the concept of free will?

[Clover]

Ah I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this? :hmm:

Are you talking about the concept of free will?

I will continue this in pm if you like, this thread isn't made for this discussion.