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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-22-2009, 03:39 PM
The information quoted below follows the evolution of the whale. It has examples on transitional species and is a good documented case of intermediate species. This is a documented case with evidence from the fossil records of one animal evolving into a new one. Simplifying what is presented, the animals shown takes us from a land dwelling animal, to an animal that lives on land and in sea, to a an animal that lives only in the sea. We see the animals shape change, it lose its legs, develop fins, grow larger, and become adapted to life in the sea.
If any one has any questions please feel free to ask.


Whale Evolution
Sinonyx
Sinonyx, a wolf-sized hyena-like, land-dwelling mammal with hoofs from the order Condylarthra, which gave rise to artiodactyls ( even-toed hoofed mammals), perissodactyls ( odd-toed hoofed mammals), proboscideans (Trunk-nosed mammals), from the late Paleocene, about 60 million years ago. The characters that link Sinonyx to the whales, thus indicating that they are relatives, include an elongated muzzle, an enlarged jugular foramen (a natural opening or perforation through a bone or a membranous structure), and a short basicranium (underside of the skull). (Zhou and others 1995). The tooth count was the primitive mammalian number (44); there were different types of teeth like mammals today. The molars were very narrow shearing teeth, especially in the lower jaw, but possessed multiple cusps. The elongation of the muzzle is often associated with hunting fish - all fish-hunting whales, as well as dolphins, have elongated muzzles. These features were atypical of mesonychids, indicating that Sinonyx was already developing the adaptations that later became the basis of the whales' specialized way of life. Length 1.5 meters/ 5 feet.
Pakicetus
The next fossil in the sequence, Pakicetus, is the oldest cetacean (marine mammal), and the first known archaeocete (ancient whale). It is from the early Eocene of Pakistan, about 52 million years ago (Gingerich and others 1983). Although it is known only from fragmentary skull remains, those remains are very diagnostic, and they are definitely intermediate between Sinonyxand later whales. This is especially the case for the teeth. The upper and lower molars, which have multiple cusps, are still similar to those of Sinonyx, but the premolars have become simple triangular teeth composed of a single cusp serrated on its front and back edges. The teeth of later whales show even more simplification into simple serrated triangles, like those of carnivorous sharks, indicating that Pakicetus's teeth were adapted to hunting fish.

A well-preserved cranium shows that Pakicetus was definitely a cetacean with a narrow braincase, a high, narrow sagittal crest, and prominent lambdoidal crests. Gingerich and others (1983) reconstructed a composite skull that was about 35 centimeters long. Pakicetus did not hear well underwater. Its skull had neither dense tympanic bullae nor sinuses isolating the left auditory area from the right one - an adaptation of later whales that allows directional hearing under water and prevents transmission of sounds through the skull (Gingerich and others 1983). All living whales have foam-filled sinuses along with dense tympanic bullae that create an impedance contrast so they can separate sounds arriving from different directions. There is also no evidence in Pakicetus of vascularization of the middle ear, which is necessary to regulate the pressure within the middle ear during diving (Gingerich and others 1983). Therefore, Pakicetus was probably incapable of achieving dives of any significant depth. This paleontological assessment of the ecological niche of Pakicetus is entirely consistent with the geochemical and paleoenvironmental evidence. When it came to hearing, Pakicetus was more terrestrial than aquatic, but the shape of its skull was definitely cetacean, and its teeth were between the ancestral and modern states. Length 1.5 meters/ 5 feet
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Basilosaurus
The particularly well-known fossil whale Basilosaurus represents the next evolutionary grade in whale evolution (Gingerich 1994). It lived during the late Eocene and latest part of the middle Eocene (35-45 million years ago). Basilosaurus was a long, thin, serpentine animal that was originally thought to have been the remains of a sea serpent (hence it is name, which actually means "king lizard"). Its extreme body length (about 15 meters) appears to be due to a feature unique among whales; its 67 vertebrae are so long compared to other whales of the time and to modern whales that it probably represents a specialization that sets it apart from the lineage that gave rise to modern whales.

What makes Basilosaurus a particularly interesting whale, however, is the distinctive anatomy of its hind limbs (Gingerich and others 1990). It had a nearly complete pelvic girdle and set of hindlimb bones. The limbs were too small for effective propulsion, less than 60 cm long on this 15-meter-long animal, and the pelvic girdle was completely isolated from the spine so that weight-bearing was impossible. Reconstructions of the animal have placed its legs external to the body - a configuration that would represent an important intermediate form in whale evolution.

Although no tail fluke has ever been found (since tail flukes contain no bones and are unlikely to fossilize), Gingerich and others (1990) noted that Basilosaurus's vertebral column shares characteristics of whales that do have tail flukes. The tail and cervical vertebrae are shorter than those of the thoracic and lumbar regions, and Gingerich and others (1990) take these vertebral proportions as evidence that Basilosaurus probably also had a tail fluke.

Further evidence that Basilosaurus spent most of its time in the water comes from another important change in the skull. This animal had a large single nostril that had migrated a short distance back to a point corresponding to the back third of the dental array. The movement from the forward extreme of the snout to the a position nearer the top of the head is characteristic of only those mammals that live in marine or aquatic environments. Length 15 meters/ 50 feet.
Dorudon
Dorudon was a contemporary of Basilosaurus in the late Eocene (about 40 million years ago) and probably represents the group most likely to be ancestral to modern whales (Gingerich 1994). Dorudon lacked the elongated vertebrae of Basilosaurus and was much smaller (about 4-5 meters in length). Dorudon’s dentition was similar to Basilosaurus’s; its cranium, compared to the skulls of Basilosaurus and the previous whales, was somewhat vaulted (Kellogg 1936). Dorudon also did not yet have the skull anatomy that indicates the presence of the apparatus necessary for echolocation (Barnes 1984). Length 5 meters/ 16 feet.
Basilosaurus and Dorudon were fully aquatic whales (like Basilosaurus, Dorudon had very small hind limbs that may have projected slightly beyond the body wall). They were no longer tied to the land; in fact, they would not have been able to move around on land at all. Their size and their lack of limbs that could support their weight made them obligate aquatic mammals, a trend that is elaborated and reinforced by subsequent whale taxa.
Peace
Mick
*hugs*
Edit
Link:http://www.smithlifescience.com/WhaleEvolution.htm

I'll admit that this is post of mine from a thread on a different forum.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 12:19 AM
Anyways here is evidence for "macro" evolution. I have others.......... No comments or rebuttals?
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GreyKode
04-23-2009, 12:51 AM
Hey AOP, I got a question for you.
Since youre a skeptic and you don't believe in things easily, you say that the above is evidence for evolution and thus no God, but I would like to ask why do you have firm faith in the accuracy of such information.
Am not to saying that its false or anything but have you investigated the evidence yourself!, I believe that for a true skeptic he shouldn't take everything for granted.
Did you consider the idea that there might be other exlplanations,
like for example I read yesterday on yahoo that they discovered that the neanderthal women had similar child birth pains as the modern day woman!!, and certain theories about how the new borns were supposed to have smaller heads and thus smaller brains have been refuted.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 12:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Hey AOP, I got a question for you.
Since youre a skeptic and you don't believe in things easily, you say that the above is evidence for evolution and thus no God, but I would like to ask why do you have firm faith in the accuracy of such information.
Am not to saying that its false or anything but have you investigated the evidence yourself!, I believe that for a true skeptic he shouldn't take everything for granted. ....
Well first of evolution offers evidence I find acceptable religion has so far failed to do so. I have seen documentaries and images of these things and see the same thing that is being suggested. Also I have seen no refute on these findings.

Also you may be lacking an understanding of some of the facts shown here and some of the evidence that shows that these things do indeed show transitional decent through modification.
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GreyKode
04-23-2009, 12:59 AM
Ok ok ... I don't know much about the subject so I was just sharing some thoughts.
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 01:21 AM
Its only explaining the evolution of a whale,no humans meaning their is a god and It is Allah.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 01:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Its only explaining the evolution of a whale,no humans meaning their is a god and It is Allah.
It shows that small modifications and adaptations can lead to the transition of one species to another. Nothing stops humans from evolving the same way...
format_quote Originally Posted by GreyKode
Ok ok ... I don't know much about the subject so I was just sharing some thoughts.
No worries, I was just caught a bit off guard, I was not suspecting such a question yet.
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 01:58 AM
Proof?
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 02:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Proof?
Proof is limited to only math and logic, evidence may be the word you were looking for. If so evidence of what?
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 02:07 AM
Of humans are modified.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Of humans are modified.
I'll just make a quick short list of some:

"humanoid" "Apes", such as the Neanderthal which was not homo sapien,
Spines not designed for bipedal tetra pods,
The tail bone,
Genetic evidence
Similar structure and appears with apes,
similar social habits as apes,
Tonsils and appendix,
a coat of fur that covers developing babies that gets shedded.

Just to list a few that come to mind.
peace
Mick
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 03:03 AM
Yes thats the first stage I meant the proof if we were birds before and evolved etc.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Yes thats the first stage I meant the proof if we were birds before and evolved etc.
That is evidence that we evolved from apes.............. We didnt come from birds..............my original post shows that one animal can become another animal.....I don't understand what you were asking....
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 03:10 AM
Ok,so goats can be lamb,impossible.
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alcurad
04-23-2009, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Proof is limited to only math and logic,
somewhat off topic, but most of the math being done nowadays is not strictly proven, nor is logic proof of much :)

as for evolution, it stands or falls on scientific grounds, and there isn't much evidence for many parts of it, although it is generally accepted.
as a muslim, I don't see it as being contrary to my religion.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Ok,so goats can be lamb,impossible.
Man, not at all what I said dude....Really....Thats not evolution at all...That is not a claim I have made....and....
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
somewhat off topic, but most of the math being done nowadays is not strictly proven, nor is logic proof of much :)

as for evolution, it stands or falls on scientific grounds, and there isn't much evidence for many parts of it, although it is generally accepted.
as a muslim, I don't see it as being contrary to my religion.
Like what is lacking evidence?
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 03:13 AM
So whats the claim? You don't have to reply it might be out of my reach of understanding.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
So whats the claim? You don't have to reply it might be out of my reach of understanding.
This thread is for the evidence of evolution not what it is. I'll see if I can get around to making one..
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 03:17 AM
I think I get it,it's like pokemon evolving into bigger ones,eh?
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Woodrow
04-23-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
I think I get it,it's like pokemon evolving into bigger ones,eh?
:sl:

Young Brother that is not very far off of what the evidence for evolution is. Many areas of evolution are seen by everyday examples. the most common being the farm animals of today have very little resemblance to those of say 200 years ago.

But the evidence does not show that one animal becomes another. A whale is still a whale and if it's ancstors had legs and walked on the earth they were still whales, just in a body shape appropriate for their time.

The only real issue we have with many evolutionist is regarding the creation of man. We believe Man was created in essentially the same form as he is today and did not come from an other creature.

Evolutionary theory offers no explanation of the origin of life nor does it attempt to. It is no more than a description of how the present day animals came to look different from their ancestors. (After the original were created)
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Yanal
04-23-2009, 03:32 AM
So I was correct to some degree?
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alcurad
04-23-2009, 04:08 AM
a useful article by brother steve/abdul fattah made a while ago:
http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/a...-detailed-520/






format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
I think I get it,it's like pokemon evolving into bigger ones,eh?
:D
Reply

ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
I think I get it,it's like pokemon evolving into bigger ones,eh?
No, it is not. Pokemon evolve too fast and with too many differences all at once. That is more like metamorphoses ie. A caterpillar becomes a butterfly a tadpole becomes a from,aquatic and EFT newts and salamanders to adults and other changes in that group, etc. That is metamorphosis and its like Pokémon. Evolution is not like that. Evolution is never so drastic.
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

Young Brother that is not very far off of what the evidence for evolution is. Many areas of evolution are seen by everyday examples. the most common being the farm animals of today have very little resemblance to those of say 200 years ago..
Micro and macro evolution are the same thing, just different ammount of time. To allow for one is to allow for the other.

But the evidence does not show that one animal becomes another. A whale is still a whale and if it's ancstors had legs and walked on the earth they were still whales, just in a body shape appropriate for their time.
Yes it does. The first animal is nothing like the last animal...Differnt phsyicaly, biologicaly, and geneticaly they are different animals

The only real issue we have with many evolutionist is regarding the creation of man. We believe Man was created in essentially the same form as he is today and did not come from an other creature.
Why? Have you seen what I suggested as evidence?

Evolutionary theory offers no explanation of the origin of life nor does it attempt to. It is no more than a description of how the present day animals came to look different from their ancestors. (After the original were created)
So? What does this have to do with evolution. That does not waeken the theory. The gap that God hides in just got smaller and moved?

format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
So I was correct to some degree?
Again no see above.
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 09:47 PM
Seal evolution! Common ancestry of seal and otter?
format_quote Originally Posted by Gurdur
An interesting bit of news on seal evolution:


'Missing link' fossil seal walked
......
.....
It may look like a cross between a seal and an otter; but an Arctic fossil could, scientists say, hold the secret of seal evolution in its feet.
......



The scientists suggest this proto-seal lived on land and in fresh water
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ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yanal
Of humans are modified.
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
I'll just make a quick short list of some:

"humanoid" "Apes", such as the Neanderthal which was not homo sapien,
Spines not designed for bipedal tetra pods,
The tail bone,
Genetic evidence
Similar structure and appears with apes,
similar social habits as apes,
Tonsils and appendix,
a coat of fur that covers developing babies that gets shedded.

Just to list a few that come to mind.
peace
Mick
:bump1:

on this?
Reply

ATHEISTofPEACE
04-23-2009, 10:12 PM
Flat Fish evolution.
Fossils of two long-extinct flatfish species found in European museum collections by Matt Friedman, a 28-year-old U. of C. doctoral candidate, should change some minds. Friedman spotlights the two species in his article, "The Evolutionary Origin of Flatfish Asymmetry," appearing in Thursday's edition of the science journal Nature.

The evidence Friedman marshals proves, he said, that it indeed took millions of years for the flatfish to evolve their look.
Here is an article I found after a quick Google search. It uses the example of the location of they eyes of the Flat Fish as an example. It shows a slow migration of the location of the eyes on a Flat Fish over a long period of time. It shows that small changes do accumulate into larger changes over long periods of time. It also dispels the myth that the Flat Fish is irreducibly complex. Here is another excerpt.
His first "transitional" fossil was an adult specimen he stumbled on in the Paris museum, part of a collection that had been given as a tribute 200 years ago to Napoleon as he fought in Italy. It clearly had an eye socket near the top of the skull, Friedman said, in transit to the other side of the face.

In London, he found a second fossil species of Amphistium, slightly younger than the one recovered in Italy. In London he also borrowed two Amphistium specimens still deeply embedded in Italian sandstone, which he analyzed with CT scans that also revealed eye sockets in transition.

In Vienna, he found misclassified fossils that turned out to be an entirely new flatfish genus he named Heteronectes, or "different swimmer," which he said clearly is in the transitional stage.
The rest is found at
http://aguyinthepew.blogspot.com/200...evolution.html

Peace
Mick
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Dr.Trax
04-24-2009, 11:29 PM
Salam Alaikum!


The claim that whales evolved is a myth!


Charles Darwin's writings about the origins of the whale show that the idea that they evolved is based entirely on fantasy and preconception:
"I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more aquatic in their structure and habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale," 3
Darwin assumes that a terrestrial mammal such as the bear turned into a mammal such as the whale, many times larger than itself and with very different physiological characteristics. He says he sees no difficulty in that hypothesis. Had Darwin written this as a novelist the limits of his imagination could not, of course, be questioned. He could even have refereed to flying pigs, crawling elephants, tree-dwelling giraffes and the like. Yet what Darwin wrote about the origin of whales appeared in a book he maintained was scientific. It is therefore out of the question to shed any scientific light on the subject by saying that he sees no difficulty in making such an assumption. Since he rests this claim on supposedly scientific grounds, he should indicate the evidence he relies on rather than saying he sees no difficulty in his hypothesis. But Darwin produced no concrete evidence in favour of this claim, and the idea that whales evolved from land-dwelling mammals has remained a fairy tale.
The approach adopted by evolutionists who came after Darwin was no different. Looking at their writings on the origin of whales, they, too, employ the same fantastical language devoid of ant scientific foundation. This, for example, is what appeared in the tale of “the evolution the whale” carried in National Geographic magazine:
''The Whale's ascendancy to sovereign size apparently began sixty million years ago when hairy, four-legged mammals, in search of food or sanctuary, ventured into water. As eons passed, changes slowly occurred. Hind legs disappeared, front legs changed into flippers, hair gave way to a thick smooth blanket of blubber, nostrils moved to the top of the head, the tail broadened into flukes, and in the buoyant water world the body became enormous.''4
The National Geographic report went on to provide information about through what imaginary mechanisms and intermediate stages, through what intermediate form fossils, the changes assumed to have taken place in the feet, skin, nostrils and tail actually emerged. In those terms, the above account is no different to the fairy tale of the frog turning into a prince. The only difference lies in the attempts being made to make the former more credible as time passes.
2. Whales have unique structures and systems not found in mammals

There are huge differences between whales and the terrestrial mammals alleged to be their forerunners, in terms of basic physiological attributes such as water conservation, vision and communication. Let us now examine the design in whales and look at the scientific dilemmas facing the theory of evolution in that regard.
The special water conservation design in whales
Although whales live in water, they are unable to use it to meet their water requirements. They need fresh water in order to survive. We do not yet fully understand how these animals meet their water needs, although it is thought that much of those needs are met by consuming sea creatures containing up to 30% less salt than the sea water around them. In this environment in which fresh water is so scarce, critical restrictions emerge in order for the body to conserve as much water as possible and for consumption to be kept to a minimum. Water levels are highly important for whales, which is why, just like camels, they do not perspire. Their kidneys regulate the concentration of urea in such a way as to gain water for them.
Why is whale milk so fatty?
Another delicate balance regarding water needs emerges in the levels of fat in the milk of female whales. The mother feeds her calf with a highly concentrated milk of the consistency of cheese. This milk is 10 times fattier than human milk. There are various chemical reasons why their milk has such a high fat level. Fat gives off water as a side product as it is processed after being consumed by the calf. The mother this resolves her calf’s needs for water with the lowest possible water loss.
The design in whales’ eyes
The design of the whale eye and its communication systems contain complex details of a kind not found in land mammals. These have an eyelid to protect the eye against foreign particles and blows. Whales, on the other hand, have a thick layer to protect against a different peril – water pressure. In addition, the refraction index in the design of the whale eye makes it possible for a killer whale in a show tank to leap 6 metres out of the water and catch a fish suspended in the air. Furthermore, in contrast to land mammals, whales’ eyes are on the sides of their heads, which protects them against strong currents. Thanks to the delicate equilibrium between the levels of rod and cone cells in their eyes, they are more sensitive to light and other details. The presence of phosphorus in their eyes is another feature that makes it easier for them to see in the murky depths.
The mathematical calculation used by whales
The sense that whales most use in order to locate food sources and one another is not sight at all, but hearing. Many whales are able to hunt in the dark regions of the sea bed thanks to a kind of “sonar.” The whale brain emits clicking sounds, in a manner that scientists have not yet unravelled. The distance of the object from the whale is determined by means of a mathematical calculation. The whale’s brain divides the speed at which the sound it emits strikes an object and returns, the time needed for this to happen, by two. The result represents the distance of the object in question. Moreover, the whale is also able to emit sound waves and focus on a single point. The returning waves are analysed and interpreted in the animal’s brain. This interpretation determines the size of the body in front of the animal, its shape, speed and location. Its skull is sound insulated to protect against sound bombardments so constant and powerful that they would otherwise injure the brain itself. The sonic system in these creatures is unbelievably sensitive. So much so that the U.S. Navy is copying the sonar design in sea mammals in order to improve its own technology.5
The design peculiar to whale calves
That is by no means the sum total of the immaculate designs in whales. The calf’s mouth has been so appropriately designed for it to suckle its mother’s milk that does so with no milk being lost and with no water entering the calf’s mouth. In addition, whale calves have lungs capable of storing high levels of oxygen for protracted dives and a design that protects their ears against high pressure.
These calculations, each of which indicates an evident design, are all unique to whales and are not found in land-dwelling mammals. Yet National Geographic expects its readers to set their reason aside and believe that all this emerged by way of evolution. National Geographic denies that whales were intelligently designed, and claims that they emerged by evolving, through the unconscious mechanisms of random mutations and natural selection, neither of which is able to foresee the future, from a land-dwelling mammal that one day decided to go and live in the sea.
But what mutation could give rise to a sonar system in the mammal claimed to be the forerunner of the whale? Bearing in mind the effects of mutations and the importance of the whale’s brain to its very survival, it is clear that mutations will either cripple the animal or kill it.
How could the brain acquire a perfect sonar system able to produce sound waves, focus them on specific points and determine objects’ position using mathematical calculations, in places that would be destroyed by the random processes in question? What coincidence could produce a quality of sonar that not even the technological knowledge of the U.S. Navy has been able to match? What mutations could turn a land mammal’s feet into fins and produce a tail capable of propelling a body weighing several tons?
The questions could also be asked in reference to the systems making the efficient use of water possible, the suckling system and the systems that protect the eye and ear from high pressure. However, evolutionists have no logical answer to any of them. There is only one answer to those questions. Whales were created in perfect form in a single moment. God has created whales with all the systems they need, as He has all other life forms. In one verse of the Qur’an He tells us: “Mankind! remember Allah’s blessing to you. Is there any creator other than Allah providing for you from heaven and earth? There is no god but Him. So how have you been perverted?” (Sura Fatir, 3)
3. The inconsistencies in evolutionists’ claims regarding Indohyus
The reason why evolutionists cling to Indohyus as a missing link is that they depict a structure between the middle and inner ear as similar to that in marine mammals. In addition, they claim that Indohyus' teeth have a similar structure to those of marine mammals, and they point to the eyes being higher in the skull than is the case in other ungulates, and maintain that this is a feature shared with whales. However, the idea of the evolution of the whale, a fantastical and unscientific fairy tale, is incompatible with the emergence of Indohyus. Let us now examine these inconsistencies.
a) Indohyus is a finding that rocks the idea of whale evolution, and the idea that it supports it is a total deception.
According to the classic scenario of whale evolution, mammals dwelling on the land are considered to have moved into the water. The fact is, however, that an examination of Indohyus shows that it already lived in water, and its dental structure shows that it lived a herbivorous existence. This feature of Indohyus represents a major contradiction of those evolutionists who say, in their classical accounts, that terrestrial mammals moved into the sea in order to find prey. The New Scientist article said this on the subject:
The research also challenges the idea that cetaceans – the order that includes whales, dolphins, and porpoises – split from their land-dwelling forebears and returned to the water to hunt aquatic prey. . .
This suggests that Indohyus was a shallow water wader already, and had not returned to the water simply to hunt live prey.
This shows that evolutionists are looking at a finding that fundamentally undermines their claims of the evolution of the whale. As always, however, they are trying to reshape their account by concealing the impact of this shock and ignoring it entirely. Whenever they are confronted by findings that clash with their own fairy tales they attempt to save their theories by means of such trickery as saying “evolution happened in this way, rather than that,” when what they should say is; “our accounts are wrong, there is no foundation to what we have been describing as the true facts in school text books.”
b) The similarities constructed between Indohyus and whales are not restricted to these life forms alone.
Even those researchers who equate Indohyus with whales in evolutionary terms admit that the similarities they have come up with between the two can also be seen in other mammals which have no connection at all to whales in respect of the theory of evolution. Scientists make the following admission on the subject:
None of these features characterize all modern and extinct cetaceans [whales—KB].... In addition, all of these characters are found in some mammals unrelated to cetaceans”6
As we have seen, Indohyus shares anatomical features not just with whales, but also with other mammals which are totally incompatible with whales in terms of the myth of evolution. For that reason, the depiction of Indohyus as “the missing link in whale evolution” in New Scientist magazine is devoid of any scientific justification and is a complete and utter deception.
c) The similarity constructed between Indohyus and whales on the basis of dental structure is also questionable
Those making these claims about Indohyus also suggest that it shares a common dental structure with whales. However, whales are carnivores. Indohyus, on the other hand, was a herbivore, with totally different feeding patterns. That being the case, it is obvious that the similarity constructed between the two does not stand on any sound foundations.
Conclusion:
The claims regarding Indohyus consist of fantastical tales invented with the aim of keeping evolutionists’ theories alive and ignoring those findings that conflict with existing accounts. Since evolutionists adopt their theories as a dogma right from the outset, and since evolutionary development is a belief imposed by materialist ideology, they are quite capable of manufacturing huge flights of fancy based on the very smallest similarities. The way they regard Indohyus, an animal that lived in rivers and no larger than a racoon, as the ancestor of the whales, on the basis of superficial similarities, such as Indohyus' eye sockets being located a little higher, represents a striking and dazzling example of this dogmatic and fantastical mindset.
Any normal, rational individual whose thought processes are unfettered by materialist preconceptions will know that this design can only be possible as the result of a mind having planned it. In the same way that the existence of a computer points to the existence of a computer engineer, or a building to that of an architect, so the sublime complexity and vast quantities of information in the biological systems in living things indicate the existence of the Creator who brought them into being. It is quite certain that this Creator is Almighty God, Who has no need of blueprints or designs in order to create, and Who brings all things into existence merely by commanding them to “Be!”
We advise the editors of New Scientist to abandon their obsession with linking the origin of living things with a fictitious evolutionary process that never actually happened, and we hope that they will see the unscientific nature of the evolutionist myths prodproduced for that purpose.





Wasalam!
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Dr.Trax
04-24-2009, 11:31 PM
A WHALE FANTASY FROM NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC


National Geographic is popularly regarded as an important scientific magazine that carries out research all over the planet and shares the results with its readers. The magazine is a major source of information in a great number of important areas, yet few readers are aware of the extent to which it passes this information through an ideological 'filter' before handing it on to its readers, and sometimes even twists the data according to the demands of this ideology and builds-up completely imaginary stories.



The ideology in question in National Geographic is a blend of philosophical naturalism and the current brand of evolutionism, known as Neo-Darwinism. In the name of defending that theory, it generally presents prejudiced views of discoveries, and even opens the door to scientific falsehoods. For example, there was the falsehood of the Archaeoraptor fossil, which was presented by National Geographic in 1998 as an infallible evidence that birds evolved from dinosaurs, but which later proved to have been 'hand made.'
Even scientists who support the theory criticize the magazine for the blind propaganda it carries. According Dr. Storrs Olson, the Curator of Birds at the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, "National Geographic has reached an all-time low for engaging in sensationalistic, unsubstantiated, tabloid journalism." (1)
One instance of National Geographic's 'sensational, unsubstantiated and tabloid' evolutionist propaganda was its 'Evolution of Whales' article carried in the issue of November, 2001. The article maintained that a string of fossil discoveries had proved the evolution of whales thesis, and even quoted paleontologist Hans Thewissen as arguing that whales were one of the best examples of evolution. The pictures, reconstructions and diagrams plastered all over the 14-page article were intended to visually reinforce the same claim in readers' minds.
However, the 'evolution of whales' scenario, so fiercely defended by National Geographic, was-and is-nothing but a fairy tale, devoid of any scientific evidence.
The parade of reconstructions on pages 66-69 in National Geographic's November 2001 issue were meant to sum up the magazine's claim regarding the origin of whales. A whole string of creatures were lined up one after the other and described as transitional forms in the evolution of the whale. According to the magazine, the order of these creatures, according to the geological periods they lived in, was as follows:
* Pakicetus (50 million years ago)
* Ambulocetus (49 million years ago)
* Rodhocetus (46.5 million years ago)
* Procetus (45 million years ago)
* Kutchicetus (43-46 million years ago)
* Durodon (37 million years ago)
* Basilosaurus (37 million years ago)
* Aeticetus (24-26 million years ago)
National Geographic's list continued, but included known categories of dolphins and whales.
There are very misleading features in this list. Let us consider the most fundamental of these. According to National Geographic, the first two creatures in the list, Pakicetus and Ambulocetus , were both 'walking whales,' yet the claim that these two terrestrial creatures were 'whales' is totally fictitious, even ridiculous.
Let us first consider Pakicetus .
Pakicetus inachus: A Quadrupedal
Forced to be the 'Ancestor of the Whale'
Fossil remains of the extinct mammal Pakicetus inachus, to give it its proper name, first came onto the agenda in 1983. P. D. Gingerich and his assistants, who found the fossil, had no hesitation in immediately claiming that it was a 'primitive whale,' even though they actually only found a skull.
Yet the fossil has absolutely no connection with the whale. Its skeleton turned out to be a four-footed structure, similar to that of common wolves. It was found in a region full of iron ore, and containing fossils of such terrestrial creatures as snails, tortoises or crocodiles. In other words, it was part of a land stratum, not an aquatic one.
So, why was a quadrupedal land dweller announced to be a 'primitive whale' and why is it still presented as such by National Geographic? The magazine gives the following reply:
What causes scientists to declare the creature a whale? Subtle clues in combination-the arrangement of cups on the molar teeth, a folding in a bone of the middle ear, and the positioning of the ear bones within the skull-are absent in other land mammals but a signature of later Eocene whales. (2)
In other words, based on some details in its teeth and ear bones, National Geographic felt able to describe this quadrupedal, wolf-like land dweller as a 'walking whale.' Just one look at the reconstruction of Pakicetus by the evolutionist illustrator Carl Buell will reveal the absurdity in terming it a 'walking whale.'
Distortions in The Reconstructions of National Geographic



Paleontologists believe that Pakicetus was a quadrupedal mammal. The skeletal structure on the left, published in the Nature magazine clearly demonstrates this. Thus the reconstruction of Pakicetus (below left) by Carl Buell, which was based on that structure, is realistic.
National Geographic, however, opted to use a picture of a 'swimming' Pakicetus (below) in order to portray the animal as a 'walking whale' and to impose that image on its readers. The inconsistencies in the picture, intended to make Pakicetus seem more 'whale-like,' are immediately obvious: The animal has been portrayed in a 'swimming' position. Its hind legs are shown stretching out backwards, and an impression of 'fins' has been given.

Pakicetusreconstruction by National Geographic
The features of the details discussed by National Geographic, "the arrangement of cups on the molar teeth, a folding in a bone of the middle ear, and the positioning of the ear bones within the skull" are no compelling evidence on which to base a link between Pakicetus and the whale:
As National Geographic also indirectly stated while writing "subtle clues in combination", some of these features are actually found terrestrial animals as well.
None of the features in question are any evidence of an evolutionary relationship. Even evolutionists admit that most of the theoretical relationships built on the basis of anatomical similarities between animals are completely untrustworthy. If the marsupial Tasmanian wolf and the common placental wolf had both been extinct for a long time, then it is no doubt that evolutionists would picture them in the same taxon and define them as very close relatives. However, we know that these two different animals, although strikingly similar in their anatomy, are very far from each other in the supposed evolutionary tree of life. (In fact their similarity indicates common design-not common descent.) Pakicetus , which National Geographic declared to be a 'walking whale,' was a unique species harboring different features in its body. In fact, Carroll, an authority on vertebrate paleontology, describes the Mesonychid family, of which Pakicetus should be a member, as "exhibiting an odd combination of characters." (3) Such prominent evolutionists as Gould accept that 'mosaic creatures' of this type cannot be considered as transitional forms.
In short, describing Pakicetus , which is clearly a land dweller, as 'walking whale' simply on the structural features in its ear bones and molars, is nothing but another example of National Geographic's tradition of 'sensational, unsubstantiated, tabloid journalism.' In his article 'The Overselling of Whale Evolution,' the creationist writer Ashby L. Camp reveals the total invalidity of the claim that the Mesonychid class, which should include land mammals such as Pakicetus , could have been the ancestors of Archaeocetea , or extinct whales, in these words:
"The reason evolutionists are confident that mesonychids gave rise to archaeocetes, despite the inability to identify any species in the actual lineage, is that known mesonychids and archaeocetes have some similarities. These similarities, however, are not sufficient to make the case for ancestry, especially in light of the vast differences. The subjective nature of such comparisons is evident from the fact so many groups of mammals and even reptiles have been suggested as ancestral to whales." (4)
Ambulocetus natans: A False Whale with 'Webbed' Claws
The second fossil creature after Pakicetus in National Geographic's imaginary sequence is Ambulocetus natans. This fossil was first brought to the world's attention in 1984 in an article in Science magazine. It is actually a land creature that evolutionists have insisted on 'turning into a whale.'
The name Ambulocetus natans comes from the Latin words 'ambulare' (to walk), 'cetus' (whale) and 'natans' (swimming), and means 'a walking and swimming whale.' It is obvious the animal used to walk because it had four legs, like all other mammals, and even wide claws on its feet and hooves on its hind legs. Apart from evolutionists' prejudice however, there is absolutely no basis for the claim that it swam in water, or that it lived on land and in water (like an amphibian).
In order to see the border between science and wishful imagination on this subject, let us have a look at National Geographic's reconstruction of Ambulocetus . This is how it is portrayed in the magazine:
National Geographic's little manipulations: Imaginary webs added to claws, and rear legs made to look like fins.
If you look at it carefully you can easily see the two little visual manipulations that have been employed to 'turn the land-dwelling Ambulocetus into a whale:

The animal's rear legs are shown not with feet that would help it to walk, but as fins that would assist it to swim. However, Carroll, who examines the animal's leg bones, says that it possessed the ability to move powerfully on land. (5)
In order to present an impression of adaptation for water, webbing has been drawn on its front feet. Yet it is impossible to draw any such conclusion from a study of Ambulocetus fossils. In the fossil record it is next to impossible to find soft tissues such as these. So reconstructions based on features beyond those of the skeleton are always speculative. That offers evolutionists a wide-ranging empty space of speculation to use their propaganda tools.
With the same kind of evolutionists touching up that has been applied to the Ambulocetus drawing, it is possible to make any animal look like any other. You could even take a monkey skeleton, draw fins on its back and webbing between its fingers and present it as the 'primate ancestor of whales.'
The invalidity of the deception carried out on the basis of the Ambulocetus fossil can be seen from the drawing below, based on real paleontological data:

The real Ambulocetus : The legs are real legs, not 'fins,' and there are no imaginary webs between its toes such as National Geographic had added. (Picture from Carroll, Patterns and Process of Vertebrate Evolution, p. 335)
In publishing the picture of the animal's skeleton, National Geographic had to take a step back from the retouching it had carried out to the reconstruction picture which made it seem more like a whale. As the skeleton clearly shows, the animal's feet were designed to carry it on land. There was no sign of the imaginary webs.

The Myth of the Walking Whale
In fact, there is no evidence that Pakicetus and Ambulocetus are ancestors of whales. They are merely described as 'possible ancestors' by evolutionists keen to find a terrestrial ancestor for marine mammals in the light of their theory. There is no evidence linking these creatures with the marine mammals that emerge in the fossil record at a very similar geological time.
After Pakicetus and Ambulocetus , the National Geographic plan moves on to so-called sea mammals and sets out (extinct whale) species such as Procetus , Rodhocetus and Archaeocetea . The animals in question were mammals that lived in the sea and which are now extinct. (We shall be touching on this matter later). However, there are considerable anatomical differences between these and Pakicetus and Ambulocetus . No matter how much National Geographic tried to reduce these to a minimum by slight touches of the brush, when we look at the fossils it is clear they are not 'transitional forms' linking each other:

  • The backbone of the quadrupedal mammal Ambulocetus ends at the pelvis, and powerful rear legs then extend from it. This is typical land mammal anatomy. In whales, however, the backbone goes right down to the tail, and there is no pelvic bone at all. In fact, Basilosaurus , believed to have lived some 10 million years after Ambulocetus , possesses the latter anatomy. In other words, it is a typical whale. There is no transitional form between Ambulocetus , a typical land mammal, and Basilosaurus , a typical whale.
  • Under the backbone of Basilosaurus and the sperm whale, there are small bones independent of it. National Geographic claims these to be vestigial legs. Yet that same magazine mentions that these bones actually had another function. In Basilosaurus , these bones 'functioned as copulary guides' and in sperm whales '[act] as an anchor for the muscles of the genitalia.' (6) To describe these bones, which actually carry out important functions, as 'vestigial organs' is nothing but Darwinistic prejudice.

In conclusion, despite all National Geographic's best efforts, the fact that there were no transitional forms between land and sea mammals and that they both emerged with their own particular features has not changed. There is no evolutionary link. Robert Carroll accepts this, albeit unwillingly and in evolutionist language: "It is not possible to identify a sequence of mesonychids leading directly to whales." (7) Other scientists accept that the animals that evolutionist publications such as National Geographic try to portray as 'walking whales' actually have nothing to do with true whales, but are a separate living group. Although he is an evolutionist, the famous Russian whale expert G. A. Mchedlidze does not support the description of Pakicetus , Ambulocetus natans and similar four-legged creatures as 'possible ancestors of the whale,' and describes them instead as a completely isolated group. (8)

Problems With National Geographic's Superficial Sequences
Visual effects (plans and drawings) play a major role in the imposition of Darwinism on society. Yet these are sometimes completely unscientific, and at other are scientific discoveries interpreted in a biased manner. National Geographic's time scale diagram (pages 64-77) of mammals that become increasingly more 'whale-like' through time is an example of these deceptive tools.
We have so far been considering small, but misleading adjustments to the reconstructions of the animals in the diagram. Alongside this, the dates ascribed to them by National Geographic have been selected in line with Darwinist prejudices. The animals are shown as following each other in a geological line, whereas these are questionable. Ashby L. Camp clarifies the situation, based on paleontological data:
"In the standard scheme, Pakicetus inachus is dated to the late Ypresian, but several experts acknowledge that it may date to the early Lutetian. If the younger date (early Lutetian) is accepted, then Pakicetus is nearly, if not actually, contemporaneous with Rodhocetus , an early Lutetian fossil from another formation in Pakistan. Moreover, the date of Ambulocetus , which was found in the same formation as Pakicetus but 120 meters higher, would have to be adjusted upward the same amount as Pakicetus . This would make Ambulocetus younger than Rodhocetus and possibly younger than Indocetus and even Protocetus." (9)
In brief, there are two different views of when the animals that National Geographic chronologically sets out one after the other really lived. If the second view is accepted, then Pakicetus and Ambulocetus , which National Geographic portrays as 'the walking whale,' are of the same age as, or even younger than true whales. In other words, no 'evolutionary line' is possible. National Geographic has totally ignored the problem and has only used views that correspond to its own thesis. This is a method of propaganda, not of science.

Tales About Ears and Noses
Any evolutionary scenario between land and sea mammals has to explain the different ear and nose structures between the two groups. By means of the showy graphics it used, National Geographic has tried to give the impression that the question has been resolved. Yet that impression is a false one.
Let us first consider the ear structure. Like us, land mammals trap sounds in the outside world in the outer ear, amplify them with the bones in the middle ear, and turn them into signals in the inner ear. Marine mammals have no outer ear. They hear sounds by means of vibration-sensitive receptors in their lower jaws.
National Geographic claims that the second system evolved from the first. This is made clear on Page 71 in the diagram headed 'hearing aids.' This diagram has been drawn in such a way as to give the reader the impression that hearing organs evolved in stages. However, there is no evolution by stages here. A look at the text used by National Geographic will suffice to make this clear:
" Pakicetus ... This walking whale lacked the fat pad extending to the middle ear that modern ceteans have, a clue that it had kept terrestrial attributes. In later whales, the jawbone, with the fat pad, adapted to receive sounds."
We have already seen that Pakicetus was a typical land mammal, and that it is ridiculous to call it a 'walking whale.' The logic employed by National Geographic is no less ridiculous: It first describes the land-dwelling Pakicetus as a 'walking whale' and then says that the animal kept terrestrial attributes. That is like calling the cow a 'walking bat' and then saying, 'It has no wings, it keeps its terrestrial attributes.'
That is one aspect of the matter. The aspect that concerns us here is the clear difference between Pakicetus and whale ears. After the National Geographic extract above, we must naturally look to see if there is a transitional form between the two. After Pakicetus in the family tree comes Ambulocetus , which evolutionists call a 'walking-swimming whale' but which was actually a land mammal. National Geographic uses the following words about Ambulocetus : "Though more aquatic than Pakicetus , Ambulocetus still heard directly through its ear."
In other words, there is no evolution towards a whale ear in Ambulocetus .
When we come to the third animal in the National Geographic list, we suddenly meet an enormous change. The above extract continues: Sounds were transmitted to the middle ears of Basilosaurus as vibrations from the lower jaw.
In other words, Basilosaurus possesses a typical whale ear. It was a creature that perceived sounds around it not through an outer ear but by vibrations reaching its jaw. And there is no transitional form between Basilosaurus ' ear and that of Pakicetus and Ambulocetus , which National Geographic put before it in its scheme.
When the subject is examined theoretically, it can be seen that in any case such a transitional form would have no chance of surviving. Any evolution by stages between one perfect aural system to a completely different one is impossible. The transitional phases would not be advantageous. An animal that slowly loses its ability to hear with its ears, but has still not developed the ability to hear through its jaw is at a disadvantage.
The question of how such a 'development' could come about is an insoluble dilemma for evolutionists. The mechanisms evolutionists put forward are mutations and these have never been seen to add unequivocally new and meaningful information to animals' genetic information. It is unreasonable to suggest that the complex hearing system in sea mammals could have emerged as the result of mutations.
A similar situation applies to National Geographic's account of the 'sliding nose.' The magazine set out three skulls from Pakicetus , Rodhocetus and a Grey Whale from our own time above one another and claimed that these represented an evolutionary process. Whereas the three fossils' nasal structures, especially those of Rodhocetus and the Grey Whale are so different that it is impossible to accept them as transitional forms in the same series.
Furthermore, the movement of the nostrils to the forehead would require a 'new design' in the anatomy of the animals in question, and believing that this could happen as the result of mutations is nothing but fantasy.

National Geographic's Lamarckian Tales
Actually, National Geographic's writers and most of the evolutionist community share a basic superstition about the origin of living things, and that is the real problem. This superstition is the magical 'natural force' that allows living things to acquire the organs, biological changes or anatomical features that they need. Let us have a look at a few interesting passages from National Geographic's article 'Evolution of Whales:'
"I tried to visualize some of the varieties of whale ancestors that had been found here and nearby... As the rear limbs dwindled, so did the hip bones that supported them. That made the spinal column more flexible to power the developing tail flukes. The neck shortened, turning the leading end of the body into more of a tubular hull to plow through the water with minimum drag, while arms assumed the shape of rudders. Having little need for outer ears any longer, some whales were receiving waterborne sounds directly through their lower jawbones and transmitting them to the inner ears via special fat pads. Each whale in the sequence was a little more streamlined than earlier models and roamed farther from shore." (10)
On close inspection, in this whole account the evolutionist mentality says that living things feel changing needs according to the changing environment they live in, and this need is perceived as an 'evolutionary mechanism.' According to this logic, less needed organs disappear, and needed organs appear of their own accord!
Anyone with the slightest knowledge of biology will know that our needs do not shape our organs. Ever since Lamarck's theory of the transfer of acquired characteristics to subsequent generations was disproved, in other words for a century or so, that has been a known fact. Yet when one looks at evolutionist publications, they still seem to be thinking along Lamarckian lines. If you object, they will say: 'No, we do not believe in Lamarck. What we say is that natural conditions put evolutionary pressure on living things, and that as a result of this, appropriate traits are selected, and in this way species evolve.' Yet here lies the critical point: What evolutionists call 'evolutionary pressure' cannot lead to living things acquiring new characteristics according to their needs. That is because the two so-called evolutionary mechanisms that supposedly respond to this pressure, natural selection and mutation, cannot provide new organs for animals:
Natural selection can only select characteristics that already exist, it cannot create new ones.
Mutations cannot add to the genetic information, they can only destroy the existing one. No mutation that adds unequivocally new, meaningful information to the genome (and which thus forms a new organ or new biochemical structure) has ever been observed.
If we look at the myth of National Geographic's awkwardly moving whales one more time in the light of this fact, we see that they are actually engaging in a rather primitive Lamarckism. On close inspection, National Geographic writer Douglas H. Chadwick "visualizes" that "Each whale in the sequence was a little more streamlined than earlier models." How could a morphological change happen in a species over generations in one particular direction? In order for that to happen, representatives of that species in every "sequence" would have to undergo mutations to shorten their legs, that mutation would have to cause the animals no harm, those thus mutants would have to enjoy an advantage over normal ones, the next generations, by a great coincidence, would have to undergo the same mutation at the same point in its genes, this would have to carry on unchanged for many generations, and all of the above would have to happen by coincidence and quite flawlessly.
If the National Geographic writers believe that, then they will also believe someone who says: 'My family enjoys flying. My son underwent a mutation and a few structures like bird feathers developed under his arms. My grandson will undergo the same mutation and the feathers will increase. This will go on for generations, and eventually my descendants will have wings and be able to fly.' Both stories are equally ridiculous.
As we mentioned at the beginning, evolutionists display the superstition that living things' needs can be met by a magical force in nature. Ascribing consciousness to nature, a belief encountered in animist cultures, is interestingly rising up before our eyes in the 21st century under a 'scientific' cloak. The well-known French biologist Paul Pierre Grassé, the former president of the French Academy of Sciences and a foremost critic of Darwinism, has once made it clear that this faith is just daydreaming:
"The opportune appearance of mutations permitting animals and plants to meet their needs seems hard to believe. Yet the Darwinian theory is even more demanding: A single plant, a single animal would require thousands and thousands of lucky, appropriate events. Thus, miracles would become the rule: events with an infinitesimal probability could not fail to occur… There is no law against daydreaming, but science must not indulge in it." (11)
More recently, Henry Gee, the science editor for the Nature magazine and an undisputedly prominent evolutionist, pointed to the same fact and admitted that explaining the origin of an organ by its necessity is like saying;
... our noses were made to carry spectacles, so we have spectacles. Yet evolutionary biologists do much the same thing when they interpret any structure in terms of adaptation to current utility while failing to acknowledge that current utility need tell us nothing about how a structure evolved, or indeed how the evolutionary history of a structure might itself have influenced the shape and properties of that structure. (12)
Another scenario which National Geographic is trying to impose, without too much discussion, concerns the body surface of the animals in question. Like other mammals, Pakicetus and Ambulocetus , which are accepted as land mammals, are generally agreed to have had fur-covered bodies. And they are both shown as covered in thick fur in National Geographic. Yet when we move on to later animals (true marine mammals), all the fur disappears. The evolutionist explanation of this is no different from the fantastical Lamarckian-type scenarios we have seen above. The truth of the matter is that all the animals in question were designed in the most appropriate manner for their environments. It is irrational to try to account for this design by means of mutation or facile Lamarck-type stories. Like all design in life, the design in these creatures is evidence for creation.

The Marine Mammal Scenario Itself
We have so far examined the evolutionist scenario that marine mammals evolved from terrestrial ones. Scientific evidence show no relationship between the two terrestrial mammals ( Pakicetus and Ambulocetus ) that National Geographic put at the beginning of the story. So what about the rest of the scenario? The theory of evolution is again in a great difficulty here. The theory tries to establish a phylogenetic link between Archaeocetea (archaic whales), sea mammals known to be extinct, and living whales and dolphins. National Geographic set the claim out in a very simplified form (Pages 156-159). However, many experts think rather differently. The evolutionary paleontologist Barbara J. Stahl writes: "The serpentine form of the body and the peculiar serrated cheek teeth make it plain that these archaeocetes could not possibly have been ancestral to any of the modern whales." (13)
The evolutionist account of the origin of marine mammals faces a huge impasse in the form of discoveries in the field of molecular biology. The classical evolutionist scenario assumes that they two major whale groups, the toothed whale (Odontoceti) and the baleen whale (Mysticeti), evolved from a common ancestor. Yet Michel Milinkovitch of the University of Brussels has opposed this view with a new theory. He stresses that this assumption, based on anatomical similarities, is disproved by molecular discoveries:
"Evolutionary relationships among the major groups of cetaceans is more problematic since morphological and molecular analyses reach very different conclusions. Indeed, based on the conventional interpretation of the morphological and behavioral data set, the echolocating toothed whales (about 67 species) and the filter-feeding baleen whales (10 species) are considered as two distinct monophyletic groups. ...On the other hand, phylogenetic analysis of DNA ... and amino acid ... sequences contradict this long-accepted taxonomic division. One group of toothed whales, the sperm whales, appear to be more closely related to the morphologically highly divergent baleen whales than to other odontocetes." (14)
In short, marine mammals defy the evolutionary scenarios for which they are being forced to be subjects.

Conclusion
Contrary to the claims of the paleontologist Hans Thewissen, who assumes a major role in evolutionist propaganda on the subject of the origin of marine mammals, and is one of National Geographic's most important sources of information, we are dealing not with an evolutionary process backed up by empirical evidence, but by evidence coerced to fit a presupposed evolutionary family tree, despite the many contradictions between the two.
What emerges, if the evidence is looked at more objectively, is that different living groups emerged independently of each other in the past. This is compelling empirical evidence for accepting that God created all of these creatures.
Loud evolutionist propaganda about marine mammals, however, resembles the 'horse series' that was once put forward in the same way, but which evolutionists then admitted was invalid. A number of extinct mammals that lived at different times were lined up behind one another, and the evolutionists of the time tried to impose this as 'firm evidence.' Yet the truth emerged over time, and it was realized that these animals could not be each others' ancestors, that they had emerged in different periods, and that they were actually independent extinct species. Dr. Niles Eldredge, a curator at the American Museum in New York, , where "evolution of the horse" diagrams were on public display at that time on the ground floor of the museum, said the following about the exhibition:
"There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit downstairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff." (15)
The evolution of whales fairy story, so fiercely defended by National Geographic, is another of these fantasies of natural history. Like its predecessors, it too will soon find itself in the waste bin of science.
____________________________________________
(1) Open Letter to National Geographic by Storrs L. Olson, Curator of Birds, National Museum of Natural History Smithsonian Institution
(2) National Geographic, "Evolution of Whales", November 2001, p. 68
(3) Robert L. Carroll, Patterns and Process of Vertebrate Evolution, Cambridge University Press, 1998, p.329
(4) Ashby L. Camp, "The Overselling of Whale Evolution", Creation Matters, a newsletter published by the Creation Research Society, May/June 1998
(5) Robert L. Carroll, Patterns and Process of Vertebrate Evolution, Cambridge University Press, 1998, p.333
(6) National Geographic, "Evolution of Whales", November 2001, p. 73
(7) Robert L. Carroll, Patterns and Processes of Vertebrate Evolution, Cambridge University Press, 1998, 329
(8) G. A. Mchedlidze, General Features of the Paleobiological Evolution of Cetacea, trans. from Russian (Rotterdam: A. A. Balkema, 1986), 91.
(9) Ashby L. Camp, "The Overselling of Whale Evolution", Creation Matters, a newsletter published by the Creation Research Society, May/June 1998
(10) National Geographic, "Evolution of Whales", November 2001, p. 69
(11) Pierre-P Grassé, Evolution of Living Organisms, New York: Academic Press, 1977, p. 103
(12) Henry Gee, In Search Of Deep Time: Beyond The Fossil Record To A New Hýstory Of Life, The Free Press, A Division of Simon & Schuster, Inc., 1999, p. 103
(13) B.J. Stahl, Vertebrate History: Problems in Evolution, Dover Publications, Inc., 1985, p. 489.
(14) Michel C. Milinkovitch, "Molecular phylogeny of cetaceans prompts revision of morphological transformations," Trends in Ecology and Evolution 10 (August 1995): 328-334.
(15) Niles Eldgridge, quoted in Darwin's Enigma by Luther D. Sunderland (Santee, CA, Master Books, 1988), page 78.)
Reply

Tornado
04-25-2009, 06:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dr.Trax
...
Ehh, it's best not to copy paste an article found on Harun Yahya's site.
Reply

wth1257
04-25-2009, 06:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
Anyways here is evidence for "macro" evolution. I have others.......... No comments or rebuttals?
What do you view as the epistemological implictions of an adaptation of a darwinian naturalist point of view?
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-25-2009, 11:03 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Ehh, it's best not to copy paste an article found on Harun Yahya's site.
Could you expand why?

And also why you do assume ALL of Yahyas work is false?

Peace
Reply

burdenofbeing
04-25-2009, 01:32 PM
I wonder what is the counter argument to evolution is.
Everything magically appeared?
Reply

Tornado
04-25-2009, 06:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Greetings,



Could you expand why?

And also why you do assume ALL of Yahyas work is false?

Peace
Are you serious? If I was a muslim, I'd be embarrased of him.

format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
I wonder what is the counter argument to evolution is.
Everything magically appeared?
What kind of muslim are you? God and magic don't go together? : )
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-25-2009, 06:45 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Are you serious? If I was a muslim, I'd be embarrased of him.
I understand what you are saying, but i dont think that all of his work is wrong, and true i would be embarrased of him for lieing, you know making false fossils, but on the other hand, all of his work aint like that.

Peace
Reply

absuk
04-25-2009, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Greetings,



I understand what you are saying, but i dont think that all of his work is wrong, and true i would be embarrased of him for lieing, you know making false fossils, but on the other hand, all of his work aint like that.

Peace
As Muslims, we pride ourselves in making a huge contribution to science. IF (I am not really in a position to judge) Harun Yahya has not been thorough with his writings, then why do not quote from other sources? Surely Harun Yahya can not be the ONLY Muslim capable of putting foreward a credible alternative hypothesis based on science...
Reply

Tornado
04-25-2009, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Greetings,



I understand what you are saying, but i dont think that all of his work is wrong, and true i would be embarrased of him for lieing, you know making false fossils, but on the other hand, all of his work aint like that.

Peace
I find him to be a very dishonest person. His Atlas of Creation book is pathetic. It's hard to take this kind of person seriously.

As to any of those articles, I can't/won't refute (won't bother reading either) them simply because evolution is not my field.

The debate takes place between experts and if there was a serious problem with evolution, then it'd be discussed (at least I would hope it'd be discussed). An ID expert and an evolution expert would win any debate on this forum because no one here is an expert. But an ID expert would lose against an evolution expert (seeing how ID never seems to win anything major).

As to fossils. I'm sure some have been faked while some have been genuine. It doesn't mean much since it doesn't actually discredit evolution.
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-25-2009, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
I find him to be a very dishonest person. His Atlas of Creation book is pathetic. It's hard to take this kind of person seriously.
You could say he is dishonest, but i wouldnt say his book is pathetic i mean its colourfull, and all of it is not true,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
As to any of those articles, I can't/won't refute (won't bother reading either) them simply because evolution is not my field.
Evolution is not my feild aswell, but i dont think all of is articles can be refuted.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
The debate takes place between experts and if there was a serious problem with evolution, then it'd be discussed (at least I would hope it'd be discussed). An ID expert and an evolution expert would win any debate on this forum because no one here is an expert. But an ID expert would lose against an evolution expert (seeing how ID never seems to win anything major).
Winning does not equal to truth, its just like saying the majority are christians for christianity is right, it might just be becuase of the fact that Evolution has had a long time to progess as a theory, whereas ID is a new theory with loads of gaps lets say, just like when the theory of evollutiuon was made, it too had lots of gaps.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
As to fossils. I'm sure some have been faked while some have been genuine. It doesn't mean much since it doesn't actually discredit evolution.
well some have also been fake and genuine from the evolutionists side take "piltdown man", for example, some of the genuine fossils shown by Harun can discredit evolution as it doesnt fit in with the time scope.

Peace Tornado,

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
As Muslims, we pride ourselves in making a huge contribution to science.
:sl:, I dont think we have met before, let me start by saying welcome to the forum, and i am sure you will like it here.

Yes we do, you can have a look at the sticky on Islamic inventions, on the health and science section, to see the vast amounts of contribution.

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
IF (I am not really in a position to judge) Harun Yahya has not been thorough with his writings, then why do not quote from other sources?
Well, i didnt quote anything from anyone, it was actually Trax that did that.

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
Surely Harun Yahya can not be the ONLY Muslim capable of putting foreward a credible alternative hypothesis based on science...
True what you are saying, i mean there are brothers who probabily only this forum knows like Brother Abdul Fattah, and many more who are capable, but i think Harun Yahya is put down with the fact that he totally dismisses evolution; it should be noted that Islam doesn't argue for total dismisall of evolution.

Peace brother.
Reply

Tornado
04-25-2009, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
You could say he is dishonest, but i wouldnt say his book is pathetic i mean its colourfull, and all of it is not true,

Evolution is not my feild aswell, but i dont think all of is articles can be refuted.
I'm pretty sure every article on that site can be refuted by an expert.

Winning does not equal to truth,
Definitely. You can say the same about gravity as well. Science doesn't have truths, but rather best explanations. Evolution is the best explanation we have and nothing stops creationists from discussing issues with evolution experts.

ID is a new theory with loads of gaps lets say, just like when the theory of evollutiuon was made, it too had lots of gaps.
ID (creationism) came first =p. ID is not even a theory. There is nothing scientific about it.

well some have also been fake and genuine from the evolutionists side take "piltdown man", for example, some of the genuine fossils shown by Harun can discredit evolution as it doesnt fit in with the time scope.
It doesn't discredit the theory of evolution. Faking is dishonest and i'm sure real scientists would shun those who lied.


I have to take evolution on faith. I'm simply not an expert. Since discussion about evolution is occuring between experts, I can only take the result of their disccussions, which is that evolution is our best explanation yet. I'm ready to forego of evolution if these experts came to another decision.

Peace Tornado,
You as well.
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-25-2009, 09:28 PM
Greetings Tornado,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
I'm pretty sure every article on that site can be refuted by an expert.
You can assure yourself of whatever you like, but an expert can easily corroborate, and verify what Harun has alleged in his article.


format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Definitely. You can say the same about gravity as well. Science doesn't have truths, but rather best explanations. Evolution is the best explanation we have and nothing stops creationists from discussing issues with evolution experts.
Agreed, science does hold explanations as to how, but not why. Evolution is the best explanation of course, but that assumes there is only science and nothing else, which leaves religion out of the picture, and well like me I want religion into it as well; which does not mean I have to go against science, as science can explain how God willed certain things to be.


format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
ID (creationism) came first =p. ID is not even a theory. There is nothing scientific about it.
Well The concept of intelligent design originated in response to the 1987 in the US, and it is know that evolution, by natural selection was first thought out by Charles Darwin, although there is a Muslim scientists; who I forgot the name, that first proposed that animals evolve.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
I have to take evolution on faith. I'm simply not an expert. Since discussion about evolution is occuring between experts, I can only take the result of their disccussions, which is that evolution is our best explanation yet. I'm ready to forego of evolution if these experts came to another decision..
Ok, well same here I am no expert but I base my decisions on what I have learned and witnessed.
Are you trying to say if someone said “right evolution is wrong”, you would just let him make your decision for you? Because that’s what you implied on your post.


format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
You as well.
Hope to see your reply.
Reply

wth1257
04-25-2009, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by burdenofbeing
I wonder what is the counter argument to evolution is.
Everything magically appeared?
Well Plantinga has an evolutionary argument against naturalism.

Outside of that there are legit questions to be raised about the acientific status of Darwinism (Popper insisted it was a metaphysical program, not a scientific hypothesis for a long time) or bring up Kuhn. Science is simply problem solving activity within and (often arbitrairly) selected paradigm.
Reply

absuk
04-25-2009, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
You could say he is dishonest, but i wouldnt say his book is pathetic i mean its colourfull, and all of it is not true,


:sl:, I dont think we have met before, let me start by saying welcome to the forum, and i am sure you will like it here.

Yes we do, you can have a look at the sticky on Islamic inventions, on the health and science section, to see the vast amounts of contribution.



Well, i didnt quote anything from anyone, it was actually Trax that did that.



True what you are saying, i mean there are brothers who probabily only this forum knows like Brother Abdul Fattah, and many more who are capable, but i think Harun Yahya is put down with the fact that he totally dismisses evolution; it should be noted that Islam doesn't argue for total dismisall of evolution.

Peace brother.

:sl:

Thank you for the welcome Ali! Apologies I alluded that you quote from Harun Yahya. I have only just joined the forum. Unfortunately I have lots and lots of questions, and was over zealous with joining in discussions based on my original questions. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have caused offence.

It is natural that one will defend very strongly when our dearest thoughts, hopes, values etc are questioned. Likewise, if we can counter the argument with strong quotes, it is human nature to "fight back" with equally strong counter points. It is unfortunate that this takes us away from what we hope to achieve!

I still have not totally understood what the Islamic view point is on evolution. Reading the works of Harun Yahya would give very mixed messages. In attempting to prove that humans were created by Allah, he gives the impression that the theory of evolution is totally false. He then offers Intelligent Design as a credible, and scientifically provable hypothesis. He also dismisses natural selection using assumptions that are inaccurate. I just think that if Islamic contribution to science is to be taken seriously, we have to refrain from quoting from sources that contain so many errors and inaccuracies.

:w:

p.s. in your response to Tornado :

"Well The concept of intelligent design originated in response to the 1987 in the US, and it is know that evolution, by natural selection was first thought out by Charles Darwin, although there is a Muslim scientists; who I forgot the name, that first proposed that animals evolve. "

Whilst ID did make a renaissance in 1987, the origins of this thought are much older! One could argue that Plato also propogated a similar theory :X
Reply

Tornado
04-26-2009, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_Cena
Greetings Tornado,



You can assure yourself of whatever you like, but an expert can easily corroborate, and verify what Harun has alleged in his article.
Yahya? I know this much, there's nothing from him that actually discredits the theory of evolution.

Agreed, science does hold explanations as to how, but not why. Evolution is the best explanation of course, but that assumes there is only science and nothing else, which leaves religion out of the picture, and well like me I want religion into it as well; which does not mean I have to go against science, as science can explain how God willed certain things to be.
Science stops no one from saying that there is an intelligent designer. You can propose it if you want. The problem is that it is very weak compared to evolution. I think creationists outnumber evolutionists so you'd think there'd be a pretty good rebuttal to evolution.

Well The concept of intelligent design originated in response to the 1987 in the US
ID is just creationism. It's nothing new.

, and it is know that evolution, by natural selection was first thought out by Charles Darwin, although there is a Muslim scientists; who I forgot the name, that first proposed that animals evolve.
Hmm, if (i think) you go against evolution, why would you revere a muslim who brought up that animals evolve?
Further, I'm sure there were many before Darwin who may have conceived that animals evolved. In fact, a guy named Alfred Wallace had the same idea independant of Darwin at about the same time.
Simply Darwin was far more comprehensive with a lot of material gathered over a long time before publishing his idea.

Are you trying to say if someone said “right evolution is wrong”, you would just let him make your decision for you? Because that’s what you implied on your post.
If a guy like Stephen Hawking and others said that gravity was wrong and that it was something else that was causing a certain phenomenon, then of course I'd "let him" make the decision for me because he's the expert and I'm the layman.

Same with evolution, if the experts said it was wrong, then I'd have to accept them. You can become an expert as well, then you could present your ideas to them and that would help science progress by holding discussions.
Reply

جوري
04-26-2009, 03:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
:sl:
:sl:
you might benefit from this thread insha'Allah

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...n-problem.html

I think many members lose interests in such topics because they have been addressed here repeatedly, and not many new members like or know how to use the search feature...

:w:
Reply

absuk
04-26-2009, 09:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
:sl:
you might benefit from this thread insha'Allah

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...n-problem.html

I think many members lose interests in such topics because they have been addressed here repeatedly, and not many new members like or know how to use the search feature...

:w:
:sl:

Thank you for the link. I found some of the posts very interesting. Was there anything in particular that you were directing me to read?
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-26-2009, 10:48 AM
With Islamic Greetings, :sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
:Thank you for the welcome Ali! Apologies I alluded that you quote from Harun Yahya. I have only just joined the forum. Unfortunately I have lots and lots of questions, and was over zealous with joining in discussions based on my original questions. Please accept my sincere apologies if I have caused offence.
No offence taken from what you have said, it’s good to have questions, as answering those leads to more faith, or lack of faith in the case of atheism.

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
:It is natural that one will defend very strongly when our dearest thoughts, hopes, values etc are questioned. Likewise, if we can counter the argument with strong quotes, it is human nature to "fight back" with equally strong counter points. It is unfortunate that this takes us away from what we hope to achieve!
Yes, if you are always to “fight back” and not listen, and absorb the arguments stated from the other party, then you don't have an open mind, ergo you won’t get far; in terms finding truth.

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
:I still have not totally understood what the Islamic view point is on evolution.
I would direct you here: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rspective.html, also another great website; by one of the posters in that thread: http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm.

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
Reading the works of Harun Yahya would give very mixed messages. In attempting to prove that humans were created by Allah, he gives the impression that the theory of evolution is totally false.
Which is wrong, most of the theory of evolution is ultimately correct.

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
I just think that if Islamic contribution to science is to be taken seriously, we have to refrain from quoting from sources that contain so many errors and inaccuracies.
So do I. I mean we are talking about evolution in this thread, I think the brothers who post sources should at least know what the Islamic viewpoint on evolution is, evolution is no were denied in Islam, if you knew that it would make you think twice on postings stuff from Yahya.

format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
:Whilst ID did make a renaissance in 1987, the origins of this thought are much older! One could argue that Plato also propogated a similar theory :X
Isn’t ID a response to evolution? Making evolution come first?

Hope to see your reply.

:w:
Reply

Ali_Cena
04-26-2009, 11:07 AM
Greetings Tornado,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Yahya? I know this much, there's nothing from him that actually discredits the theory of evolution.
How can you know that when you haven’t read every single one of his arguments, articles, and analysed any of his videos, read his books, furthermore you did mention you are not an expert of evolution so how can you know that it discredits the theory?

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Science stops no one from saying that there is an intelligent designer. You can propose it if you want. The problem is that it is very weak compared to evolution. I think creationists outnumber evolutionists so you'd think there'd be a pretty good rebuttal to evolution.
Again it’s not about the number of people, or the amount of awards they have one, if ID has not got quality and facts it will always be rebuttable. I always think God is out of science; as if God was within science God would be restricted by laws such as time, and etc, so it shouldn’t really make sense; ID.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
ID is just creationism. It's nothing new.
The way you said it is just like me saying, “evolution is just atheism”,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Hmm, if (i think) you go against evolution, why would you revere a muslim who brought up that animals evolve?
I admire that Muslim as he has not said anything that goes against Islam, like I mentioned before Islam doesn’t not totally deny evolution. Also I believe in some parts of evolution not all.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Further, I'm sure there were many before Darwin who may have conceived that animals evolved. In fact, a guy named Alfred Wallace had the same idea independant of Darwin at about the same time.
Alfred Wallace was born in 1823, and there are more before him like Al-Jahiz who was born in December 868 almost 1000 years before Wallace, true though Darwin did have more material and managed to portray his idea better.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Simply Darwin was far more comprehensive with a
lot of material gathered over a long time before publishing his idea.
Agreed.


format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Same with evolution, if the experts said it was wrong, then I'd have to accept them. You can become an expert as well, then you could present your ideas to them and that would help science progress by holding discussions.
Yes but you are assuming that he is right at the current time, look say you lived 100 years ago and say the experts at that time said “nope gravity is false, and wrong” you assume that the experts knows all, and can tell the future, so you disagree, 100 years forward you dead (God forbid) but new ideas are brought forward that state gravity is 100%. You just followed assumingly an expert, which was wrong.

Now religion like Islam on the other hand done change, the Quran is still the same as it was 1400 years ago By Gods Grace.

Peace tornado hoping to see your reply.
Reply

جوري
04-26-2009, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by absuk
:sl:

Thank you for the link. I found some of the posts very interesting. Was there anything in particular that you were directing me to read?
Indeed.. I wanted you to see some of molecular biology that would go into something like 'speciation' I don't really want to use the term evolution because it is misleading people between natural adaptation and speciating from an alleged common ancestry!
Also wanted to put a full scientific flaw into 'Natural selection' By showing many genetic disorders like trinucleotide repeat expansions, where the bad genes aren't only not weeded out but as the title suggests, expand with each generation so that each successive one fares out worst than the one before!


and Allah swt knows best

:w:
Reply

ATHEISTofPEACE
04-26-2009, 06:58 PM
What about the list of evidence for human evolution. *is reading stuff about whales and what not atm*
Reply

جوري
04-26-2009, 07:00 PM
visit links provided.. also you might be interested in reading

this: http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf


all the best
Reply

Dr.Trax
04-27-2009, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ATHEISTofPEACE
What about the list of evidence for human evolution.
Go here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...w-imagina.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/scien...rni%20ngdigest
Reply

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