Objective Evidence For Islam

[IHaveADream]

Assuming God has created Islam for humans to use to get to heaven, one should assume that he should have reasonably provided some sort of evidence in the revelations to allow an objective person to accept the religion, being that many people throughout history have falsely claimed divinity.

So, if anyone would like to debate on this topic, just post any evidence you have found.

PS: Please don't just write something to the effect of "Refer to (add chosen islamic scholar here). Please provide a summary of the specific point you wish to make in order to allow the discussion to be easily accessible. Also avoid just copy and pasting if possible.

Thank you.

[جوري]

given that you are the compère for this thread, it would be prudent that you bring forth the points you wish to discuss? as it now stands you wish to discuss a very expansive topic-- try to narrow it down to one or two points that most interest you and take it from there.. I can already see a flaw in the question or introduction I should say.. Islam wasn't created merely as a leeway to get to heaven.. it was 'created' as a complete way of life!

all the best

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I suppose for Muslims the biggest single piece of evidence might be the Qur'an.

Although, of course, that only counts as evidence if it convinces you.

Peace

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson

Although, of course, that only counts as evidence if it convinces you.

Not to be a pedant, but that would depend on your definition of 'evidence'.

According to wordnet.princeton.edu, evidence (in this context) is defined as "your basis for belief or disbelief; knowledge on which to base belief; "the evidence that smoking causes lung cancer is very compelling""

According to wikipedia, "Evidence in its broadest sense includes anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion."

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[IHaveADream]

Okay, to narrow the definition of "evidence down," I would say something an objective person could look at to be logically and scientifically factual. Also, I don't see how the qu'ran itself can be taken objectively as evidence unless you point to some specific part of it to show that what is written could not have been writen by man or something to tha effect.

[IHaveADream]

given that you are the compère for this thread, it would be prudent that you bring forth the points you wish to discuss? as it now stands you wish to discuss a very expansive topic-- try to narrow it down to one or two points that most interest you and take it from there.. I can already see a flaw in the question or introduction I should say.. Islam wasn't created merely as a leeway to get to heaven.. it was 'created' as a complete way of life!

all the best

I understand it's not created as a way to get to heaven, I was just trying to type out the intro quickly. However, it is as the qu'ran states, that religion you need to follow to get to heaven and that is why I was looking for evidence as it is only reasonable to expect evidence from God to verify the claim of a prophet as there have been many people in history that claim to be or atleast be in contact with a God.

[جوري]

objective logical people set up criteria to be met for things that are otherwise not materialized.

for instance, if a patient comes to the hospital with a c/o of a headache.
No doctor can logically determine whether indeed this person is having a headache or not (it is a subjective find) however, there are criteria set , in a form of questionnaire not simply to determine whether or not this patient is suffering a headache or merely malingering, but to determine the actual etiology of the headache which can be anything from simple tension to Thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura.
I fail to understand the last statement of your post? if you want to understand more about the compilation of the Quran, you may purchase this book:

The History of the Qur'anic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments
Muhammad M. Al-Azami




or for further abridged reading

The Qur'anic Manuscripts

There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.
The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.
The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are more than 40 Qur'anic manuscripts which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. More than 45 manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra.We will be showing only a few examples below.
A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.
A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.
Looking for something similar? Try

The Arabic Papyri | Arabic & Islamic Inscriptions | The Islamic Coins

1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography

On The Origins Of The Kufic Script

The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.

The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.

It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.

Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts

Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.

From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an

A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!

Dated Texts Containing The Qur’an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.

The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.

2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts

THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS

No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.

A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This manuscript was written in Kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript.

FIRST CENTURY HIJRA

There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are primarily dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the ‘Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the ḥijazi script.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ – Inv. No. 01-27.1: Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.

Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ inv. 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of £2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. Below is a detailed description of some of the folios from this codex.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Luqmān And Sūrah al-Sajda.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This palimpsest from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra. An image acquired using ultraviolet photography is also shown in order to appreciate the improvement of contrast of the washed-off writing. This manuscript may have belonged to the same codex as the one discussed below.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah al-Sajda And Sūrah al-Ahzāb.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This manuscript from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.

Surah al-‘Imran. Verses number : End Of Verse 45 To 54 And Part Of 55.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End Of Verse 49 Of Surah Al-Shura To Verse 31 Of Surah al-Zukhruf And Part Of 32.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.

Arabe 328a: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.

This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from first century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana and the Nasser David Khalili Collection. This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 28% of the total text of the Qur'an.

Vat. Ar. 1605: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana.

A manuscript from the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana [Vatican Library] written in the ḥijāzī script. This manuscript, one folio in the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Accession No. KFQ 60, published by Déroche) and 56 folios in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris (Arabe 328a) are parts of the same muṣḥaf. They all are dated to first century of hijra.

MS. Or. 2165: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.

Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.

The “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.

This monumental and the earliest Kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

The ‘Mingana Palimpsest’ – A Manuscript Containing Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.

Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.

An ‘Umayyad’ Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.

This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.

Surah al-An‘am. Verses number : Part Of Verse 5 To 19 And Part Of 20.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Nahl. Verses number : End Of Verse 73 To 88 And Part Of 89.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Maryam & Sūrah Ṭāhā.

This folio has probably been written by two different copyists as the script in the first half is different from the second. It is italic in the first half and regular in the second half of the fragment except for the letter alīf. The ornamentation here is simple. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Qur'anic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.

Eight leaves (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of Sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains Sūrah āl-‘Imrān, verses 34-184.

A Perg. 2: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.

A manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna, written in the ḥijāzī script.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.

A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.

P. Michaélidès No. 32 - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Collection George Michaélidès, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.

A Ma‘il Manuscript in Kuwait - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma‘il script [External Link].

FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Mixt. 917 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.

This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.

Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Kahf (18) Verses Number: Part Of 17 To 27 And Part Of 28.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses Number: Part Of Verse 94 To Part Of Verse 97.

Manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama (Bahrain), written in the Kufic script.

SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Surah al-Tawba, Surah Yunus: Part Of 129 From Surah Al-Tawba To Part Of 4 From Surah Yunus.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 213: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.

Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in themashq script.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.

This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph ‘Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ‘Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.

An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).

A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.

A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].

SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA

Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An‘am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An‘am.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.

Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS

The Famous "Blue" Qur'an.

EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS

Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page

It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.

The Schøyen Collection, National Library Of Norway

It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.

3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijazi or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.

The Qira'at Identified In The Qur'anic Manuscripts

We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.

Y. Dutton, "An Early Mushaf According To The Reading Of Ibn ‘Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.

This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn ‘Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.

Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's 'Oldest Qur'an Manuscript' (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.

The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn ‘Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.

This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

1. Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
2. The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
3. The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.

4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections

Maktabat al-Jami‘ al-Kabir (Maktabat al-Awqaf), The Great Mosque, San‘a', Yemen (See the manuscripts from 1st, 1st/2nd, 2nd and 2nd/3rd century of hijra).

Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo, Egypt.

Astan-i Quds-i Razavi Library, Mashhad, Iran.

Islamic Museum, Jerusalem, Palestine.

Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain (See the manuscripts from 1st and 1st/2nd century of hijra).

The Nasser David Khalili Collection Of Islamic Art, London, United Kingdom.

Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, France.

The Oriental Institute Museum, University of Chicago, Chicago, United States of America.

The Chester Beatty Library, Dublin, Ireland.

The Institute Of Oriental Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences, St. Petersburg, Russia (See the manuscript from 1st/2nd century of hijra).

all the best

[جوري]

I understand it's not created as a way to get to heaven, I was just trying to type out the intro quickly. However, it is as the qu'ran states, that religion you need to follow to get to heaven and that is why I was looking for evidence as it is only reasonable to expect evidence from God to verify the claim of a prophet as there have been many people in history that claim to be or atleast be in contact with a God.

see previous reply.. plus, I think the first 'objective' thing for you to do, is to actually read the Quran, and then come discuss it? You need to first compare it against other literature, other literature of the alleged same class, then against itself, then against the other work (ahadith) of the person who brought them both, to see if there is indeed something extraordinary there..
as it so stands you have presented an open-ended question.

all the best

[IHaveADream]

Well, I have read the Qu`ran, but see no objective evidence. To put it quite simply, with the large amount of people claiming to be prophets, Allah should provide some evidence in this world that the qu`ran is true as otherwise how can he expect a non-muslim to accept Islam.

[IHaveADream]

I believe the second part of your `sig`sums up what is in the mind of most muslims I have encountered, ``for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary``

[IHaveADream]

As for your first point about the doctor, I would find it beneficial if you could clear up what you meant as well as how it relates to the discussion at hand. Seeing as how you are able to list so many books, why don`t you provide a point of evidence.

[YusufNoor]

Well, I have read the Qu`ran, but see no objective evidence. To put it quite simply, with the large amount of people claiming to be prophets, Allah should provide some evidence in this world that the qu`ran is true as otherwise how can he expect a non-muslim to accept Islam.

oh, you can read Arabic?

btw, Sis gave you some evidence. your opinion of it?

:w:

[جوري]

Well, I have read the Qu`ran, but see no objective evidence. To put it quite simply, with the large amount of people claiming to be prophets, Allah should provide some evidence in this world that the qu`ran is true as otherwise how can he expect a non-muslim to accept Islam.

well I have read a A Midsummer Night's Dream and I have determined it is neither Shakespearean nor is it about four young athenian lovers...

how is it a part of the curriculum and how do they the expect non-reader to accept it as a weighty formal literary piece?

Do you see anything flawed with the above?

I really have my doubts that you've read the Quran, you seem rather reluctant to discuss it on the same fashion that you expect others to attempt as courtesy to you!

all the best

[Strzelecki]

Greetings,

I suppose for Muslims the biggest single piece of evidence might be the Qur'an.

Although, of course, that only counts as evidence if it convinces you.

Peace

Have you read it objectively?
What were you qualms since it clearly hasn't convinced you?
You could say that about anything, and in most cases (inclusive of al-Qur'aan) it depends on the manner of one's mind in which they read it.

[IHaveADream]

Yes, I can read arabic, however i`m not fluent in speaking the language so I must admit that I did also read the english translation. also, who do you mean by sis and what was the evidence.

[IHaveADream]

Well, first of all, please stop the ad hom attacks and if you don`t think I have read the q`ran, well, then there`s no way of me convincing you. i was raised a pakistani muslim and my mholve saab came on the weekend to watch me read it.

as to Sayf Udeen, yes it is true, it has not convinced me that it is written by God and does not give any good reason to believe in the religion.

If you wish to discuss the qu`ran, be my guest i am not prohibiting it in any sense.

[IHaveADream]

second of all I didn`t read it objectively at first, infact I read it as a devoted muslim

[جوري]

Yes, I can read arabic, however i`m not fluent in speaking the language so I must admit that I did also read the english translation. also, who do you mean by sis and what was the evidence.

1. 
   
2. وَإِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَادْعُواْ شُهَدَاءَكُم مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

let's shift gears a little bit and rather than trap you in a lie, ask you what constitutes evidence in your book? what to you would convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that this book is from God and the message is true?

[IHaveADream]

well I have read a A Midsummer Night's Dream and I have determined it is neither Shakespearean nor is it about four young athenian lovers...

how is it a part of the curriculum and how do they the expect non-reader to accept it as a weighty formal literary piece?

Do you see anything flawed with the above?

I really have my doubts that you've read the Quran, you seem rather reluctant to discuss it on the same fashion that you expect others to attempt as courtesy to you!

all the best

Well, if you read the book, you would know what it`s about. As for the qu`ran it claims to be the word of God, but provides no information that a human could not have known by himself at the time or anything that we know now that we didn`t at the time of its revelation.

[جوري]

rather as an addendum to the above, what would convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that any book is from God and the message bearer is truthful, not simply limit it to Islam or the Quran!

[جوري]

Well, if you read the book, you would know what it`s about.

Indeed, I agree with that!

As for the qu`ran it claims to be the word of God, but provides no information that a human could not have known by himself at the time or anything that we know now that we didn`t at the time of its revelation.

This statement has no intelligible meaning to me, perhaps you can phrase it in a manner to suit my linear mind... as well answer my other two questions above!

all the best

[IHaveADream]

1. 
   
2. وَإِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَادْعُواْ شُهَدَاءَكُم مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

let's shift gears a little bit and rather than trap you in a lie, ask you what constitutes evidence in your book? what to you would convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that this book is from God and the message is true?

Well, to this I would make two points.

1. It should contain some knowledge that no man could have known at the time of its revelation but we know now. After all, anyone could write a book claiming that it was written by God.

2. It should not contain any inaccuracies, such as contradicting what we have proven with science.

[جوري]

Well, to this I would make two points.

1. It should contain some knowledge that no man could have known at the time of its revelation but we know now. After all, anyone could write a book claiming that it was written by God.

indeed, the quran has things not mentioned in any other revelations
A'ad, Thamud, Luqman, Erum, Ahl, Al-kahf, to name a few
interestingly there were no libraries or translators in Arabia, or wild excavations for them to have come down to lyrically and poetically with every verse!

2. It should not contain any inaccuracies, such as contradicting what we have proven with science.

I agree with that too, and feel free to bring the contradictions and inaccuracy cuts and pastes from the site of your choosing, and let's discuss it!

all the best

[IHaveADream]

indeed, the quran has things not mentioned in

I agree with that too, and feel free to bring the contradictions and inaccuracy cuts and pastes from the site of your choosing, and let's discuss it!

all the best

Haha... says the person with the huge copy and pasted posting. But for starters, it`s opposition to the theory of evolution.

[جوري]

[QUOTE=IHaveADream;1137276]

As for your first point about the doctor, I would find it beneficial if you could clear up what you meant as well as how it relates to the discussion at hand.

It is an analogy are you familiar with those?

Seeing as how you are able to list so many books, why don`t you provide a point of evidence.

Why don't you provide a point for discussion?

all the best

[IHaveADream]

indeed, the quran has things not mentioned in any other revelations
A'ad, Thamud, Luqman, Erum, Ahl, Al-kahf,
all the best

Could you put forward a specific point that is now scientifically provable.

[IHaveADream]

ok, i will continue this discussion 2morrow, I have a test to study for.

[جوري]

Haha... says the person with the huge copy and pasted posting. But for starters, it`s opposition to the theory of evolution.

Actually it neither confirms nor denies it --the name of Allah swt 'al'bary' means the evolver, and certainly if you had read suret Al'waqi3a you'd actually read it, you'd have realized that it isn't beneath God to transoform us in the shape he desires.. evolution doesn't address whether or not 'God exists'.. interestingly if you'd like to discuss 'evolution' or speciation on a molecular biology level, that would just happen to be my area of expertise!

all the best

[جوري]

ok, i will continue this discussion 2morrow, I have a test to study for.

you go do that!

[جوري]

Could you put forward a specific point that is now scientifically provable.

why don't you do this for us, just so we are on the same level.. prove to us scientifically how we all came about from the existing 'scientific theories'
panspermia or abiogenesis, so that every few centuries cells appear ex-nihilo develop sentience, and take on a few base pairs of amino acids to develop perfectly functioning adapting noetic human beings, along with about a billion other species and then we'll put forward a scientifically provable point for God for you...

all the best

[جوري]

I believe the second part of your `sig`sums up what is in the mind of most muslims I have encountered, ``for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary``

Thanks for sharing that..
I find it a bit troubling that you concern yourself so with what goes in the mind of 'most muslims' that you've encountered? Why is that? Do you have a persecution complex? Do you believe that their beliefs influence you somehow? are their beliefs threatening to you on some level? Does it upset you that they believe in something which you don't?

we can by the same token classify you with your group of [(kanoods) since you read Arabic you should know what that means, but I digress] as you like your class of people seem to bring the same bromides to the table and think it rather groundbreaking...

a slave to the human condition in the beginning and the end it seems?

all the best

[جوري]

You've written quite a bit for someone who needs to study for a test, and rather make us reminisce of a former or perhaps existing Pakistani apostate who was always studying for test after a few carpet bombs and a run.. nonetheless, let's focus on what you have written:

Well, first of all, please stop the ad hom attacks and if you don`t think I have read the q`ran, well, then there`s no way of me convincing you.

I don't see any adhoms.. does anyone else? you claim you have read the quran, followed by and I quote:

Well, to this I would make two points.

1. It should contain some knowledge that no man could have known at the time of its revelation
------.

to which I have replied with A'ad, Thamud, Luqman, Erum, Ahl, Al-kahf, to name a few
interestingly there were no libraries or translators in Arabia, or wild excavations for them to have come down to lyrically and poetically with every verse!

and to which you had no comment..
Someone who had read the Quran, and as a devout would instinctively know those things amongst others, especially that many of them were unearthed as a modern day excavation.

i was raised a pakistani muslim and my mholve saab came on the weekend to watch me read it.

and this is a testament to what? writing Parti Québécois doesn't make me from Québec or a member of a separatist party!

as to Sayf Udeen, yes it is true, it has not convinced me that it is written by God and does not give any good reason to believe in the religion.

I am not say udeen, but pls humor me, why should we be aggrieved by this declaration?

If you wish to discuss the qu`ran, be my guest i am not prohibiting it in any sense.

What about the Quran would you like to discuss?

second of all I didn`t read it objectively at first, infact I read it as a devoted muslim

you must have a different defintion for devotion than the rest of us?.. we always assume devotion as an advanced step... even in the Quran, it is stated:

قَالَتِ الأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُلْ لَمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَكِنْ قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ وَإِنْ تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لا يَلِتْكُمْ مِنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

--, "We believe." Say, "Ye, have no Faith, but ye (only) say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah, 'for not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

In the Quran, Allah swt is well acquainted with the human condition, so pls don't come under the false pretenses of devotion, I don't believe you know the meaning of the term!

all the best

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Have you read it objectively?

I tried to read it as objectively as any human can read any text.

What were you qualms since it clearly hasn't convinced you?

There's a long list of them, and I don't know if discussing them would take us off the topic.

You could say that about anything, and in most cases (inclusive of al-Qur'aan) it depends on the manner of one's mind in which they read it.

Some texts are convincing no matter what frame of mind you read them in.

I've been on these forums a fairly long time, and I've learned a lot since I've been here. I often see arguments of the following kind presented to non-Muslims:

If you'd read the Qur'an you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an objectively you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an properly you'd believe in Islam.
If you'd read the Qur'an in Arabic you'd believe in Islam.

You know the type of thing I mean.

This is similar to the no true Scotsman fallacy. Any objection to the truth of the Qu'ran can instantly be met with "you haven't read it properly" or "you haven't read it objectively".

In fact, many of us have read it from cover to cover, as sincerely as we can, and are simply not convinced. That is the plain truth of the matter.

Peace

[جوري]

In fact, many of us have read it from cover to cover, as sincerely as we can, and are simply not convinced. That is the plain truth of the matter.

Peace

That is indeed true..
It is the same when I hand out pamphlets on the ills of smoking and in spite of even surgeon general warning right on the box, there will always be a group of the population who are just simply not convinced.. then they go on citing such things as Milton Berle who lived to be 100, and always a cigar in his mouth...indeed in the Quran Allah swt states the following verses which I believe serve all man-kind equally:

74:38] Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

73:10] And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).

88:21] Remind them, for thou art but a remembrancer, 88:22] Thou art not at all a warder over them.

73:19] Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.

44:59] So wait thou and watch; for they (too) are waiting.


in other words, all the Quran can do for anyone is call them the signs of their lord, the naturally occurring ones and remind man-kind that each soul will have a taste of death.. and that is all that any Muslim can do for you (not you per se) but any athei/agnosto/ who comes with some apothegmatic pedantry!

all the best

[czgibson]

Greetings,

That is indeed true..
It is the same when I hand out pamphlets on the ills of smoking and in spite of even surgeon general warning right on the box, there will always be a group of the population who are just simply not convinced.. then they go on citing such things as Milton Berle who lived to be 100, and always a cigar in his mouth...

It's a strange analogy to choose - surely the fact that there's addiction involved there makes it rather different?

Also, the evidence that smoking damages health is far more widely accepted than evidence supporting Islam.

indeed in the Quran Allah swt states the following verses which I believe serve all man-kind equally:

74:38] Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.

73:10] And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).

88:21] Remind them, for thou art but a remembrancer, 88:22] Thou art not at all a warder over them.

73:19] Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.

44:59] So wait thou and watch; for they (too) are waiting.

These are simple assertions, very different from the claim that smoking damages health. Why should anybody believe them? They are supported by no evidence outside the text itself.

in other words, all the Quran can do for anyone is call them the signs of their lord, the naturally occurring ones and remind man-kind that each soul will have a taste of death.. and that is all that any Muslim can do for you (not you per se) but any athei/agnosto/ who comes with some apothegmatic pedantry!

That's a good way of looking at it, and I accept that when Muslims do this they are doing it from sincerely felt motives.

As an ex-Greek scholar and confirmed pedant, however, I would definitely prefer the bulky elegance of the word apophthegmatic.

But that's another story... :D

Peace

[Uthman]

Personally, I belive that there is convincing evidence in support of Islam that can be reached through purely objective study. One of these is, as czgibson made reference to earlier, the miraculous nature of the Qur'an (which I think is often so poorly explained to Non-Muslims that I can understand how the idea might seem ridiculous to them). Another piece of evidence is the sincerity of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - the fact that he could not have been intentionally lying nor is it plausible that he had been imagining these revelations.

What I have stated here is brief and I accept that they are not really backed up with explanation or detail and so I do not expect this alone to convince anyone. If I have time, then I will expand on these points further. I should add that these are not the only items of evidence, but I don't have time to go into that right now.

[GreyKode]

I would like to address IHaveADream's original question?
From the sounds of it you seem to have got past the point of believing in God i.e. youre not an atheist.(correct me if wrong)
Now based on the premise that you are a believer in God, before asking if Islam is true or not you should research all other religions and then ask yourself which one makes sense to you most.

[جوري]

Greetings,


It's a strange analogy to choose - surely the fact that there's addiction involved there makes it rather different?

Greetings,
There are several theories involving the term 'addiction', I have certainly seen many quit cold Turkey, mind over matter so to speak..
I find Medical Ethics to be so strangely in concert with Islamic laws, and it is part of the attraction.
and rule number one is always respecting patient autonomy. I certainly can respect for instance that a "Jehovah's witness' may refuse a blood transfusion even though it maybe life saving.. as well the concept of mentally competent isn't so tightly wound as to take away the rights of say folks with down syndrome who wish to have children etc... so no overall I don't think it a strange analogy.. I think it is very befitting for our purposes here...

Also, the evidence that smoking damages health is far more widely accepted than evidence supporting Islam.

I'll have to argue against that too based on stats alone.. How many quit based on the evidence of damage to health and addiction, whereas how many convert to Islam?
It is generally believed in medical practices that less than 5% of pts will quit because of the advise of a medical professional. Nonetheless those who do constantly advise and follow up and have a good rapport with their patience achieve the best results..

These are simple assertions, very different from the claim that smoking damages health. Why should anybody believe them? They are supported by no evidence outside the text itself.

I didn't give you a compendium of Quranic and Hadiths literature, I gave you the upshot of what I felt was most pertinent to this thread.. I can make an equally effective argument for any number of things.. the question after what I have quoted you, is what interest would I have converting anyone to Islam? I gain absolutely nothing!

That's a good way of looking at it, and I accept that when Muslims do this they are doing it from sincerely felt motives.

I accept that there are wonderful Muslims who are interested in the welfare of others, for me personally I'd rather fix the Muslims we do have than work on new ones..

As an ex-Greek scholar and confirmed pedant, however, I would definitely prefer the bulky elegance of the word apophthegmatic.

But that's another story... :D

I was indeed thinking of how many a visitors here come a fi a fi a fo a fumming with their new revelations, when I wrote that!

Peace

all the best

[IHaveADream]

K' I'm back.

I would like to address IHaveADream's original question?
From the sounds of it you seem to have got past the point of believing in God i.e. youre not an atheist.(correct me if wrong)
Now based on the premise that you are a believer in God, before asking if Islam is true or not you should research all other religions and then ask yourself which one makes sense to you most.

No, my family is muslim but I am atheist/agnostic

[IHaveADream]

Getting back on topic, Gossamer skye, you're speaking with such confidence that the qu'ran is true, but when I question it, all you do is try to say that I haven't read the qu'ran.

As for the point about evolution, it does contradict the qu'ran in a few ways, such as it's story of creation in a few days and that Adam and Eve (I know the names are a bit different, like adamalaysalam) were the firs two created.

[GreyKode]

Share with us what evolution says about humans

[جوري]

Getting back on topic, Gossamer skye, you're speaking with such confidence that the qu'ran is true, but when I question it, all you do is try to say that I haven't read the qu'ran.

You haven't brought anything substantial to the table to discuss. short of saying I disagree, I have used the analogy of Shakespearean plays not being written by Shakespeare you asserted I'd need to read it to know -- well in fact there are several theories circulating on the actual authorship of his work some contending them to be the works of Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe, William Stanley to name a few.
It appears simple enough, indeed I can even manage a pshaww, it seems to me the burden of proof would lie on the one making the allegations.. no?

further, I can tell you haven't out of your ignorance of simple things that are common knowledge to most Muslims!

As for the point about evolution, it does contradict the qu'ran in a few ways, such as it's story of creation in a few days and that Adam and Eve (I know the names are a bit different, like adamalaysalam) were the firs two created.

again, if you have in fact read the Quran you'd know that days by God's measure aren't equal to ours, as well the beginning two lines of suret al'insan simply denote we might not even be the most important beings of creation..

Now other than that I have told you that you are free to prove evolution as a testable non theoretical fact, given the competing theories on the origin of the things, even though the start point itself is already based on an apriori judgment, I'd be willing to forgo minute detail, if you'd take that first primordial goo and give me a human at the end.. Does that sound fair?


all the best

[IHaveADream]

You haven't brought anything substantial to the table to discuss. short of saying I disagree, I have used the analogy of Shakespearean plays not being written by Shakespeare you asserted I'd need to read it to know -- well in fact there are several theories circulating on the actual authorship of his work some contending them to be the works of Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe, William Stanley to name a few.

Ok, well Shakespeares plays don't claim that you will suffer eternal ****ation if you don't do what they say, so most people will overlook the controversial background knowledge, while the qu'ran does and yet does not provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm sure if the qu'ran didn't say you would go to hell without following it, most people wouldn't even care to scrutinize it.

[IHaveADream]

again, if you have in fact read the Quran you'd know that days by God's measure aren't equal to ours

This is basically the same manipulation of script used by any creationist debater. Sorry, but you can't keep moving the goalpost by interpreting something differently as it gets proved wrong. Anyways, if God is writing this book for humans, why would he put it to us in this way, to purposely confuse us into not believing him.

Also, you didn't address my point about Adam and Eve.

[IHaveADream]

it seems to me the burden of proof would lie on the one making the allegations.. no?

Obviously you can't comprehend irony, so let me just ask you how would you prove the allegation that islam is true

Now other than that I have told you that you are free to prove evolution as a testable non theoretical fact, given the competing theories on the origin of the things, even though the start point itself is already based on an apriori judgment, I'd be willing to forgo minute detail, if you'd take that first primordial goo and give me a human at the end.. Does that sound fair?

Not exactly fair, considering the vast amount of explanations that go into getting this message across to someone who will obviously ignore it anyways. Second of all, I don't see how competing theories would prove islam right as most scientists would agree that creationism is no competing theory in science.

[GreyKode]

This is basically the same manipulation of script used by any creationist debater. Sorry, but you can't keep moving the goalpost by interpreting something differently as it gets proved wrong. Anyways, if God is writing this book for humans, why would he put it to us in this way, to purposely confuse us into not believing him.

I assume youre talking about the days issue.
I just want to ask you what is the arabic word for day?

[IHaveADream]

I assume youre talking about the days issue.
I just want to ask you what is the arabic word for day?

Youm

[IHaveADream]

And yes I am aware that muslims interpret this as a vague number of years, however, this goves no real information and only allows them to deflect criticism

[جوري]

Ok, well Shakespeares plays don't claim that you will suffer eternal ****ation if you don't do what they say, so most people will overlook the controversial background knowledge, while the qu'ran does and yet does not provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm sure if the qu'ran didn't say you would go to hell without following it, most people wouldn't even care to scrutinize it.

That is funny, even funnier than the two guys who double parked in front of me today to exchange numbers right before I got into the FDR drive but I digress..

let's see
1- Do all monotheistic religions D*** you to hell? I'd say strangely enough, if you don't believe that Jesus self-immolated the night before he prayed to himself to eat your sins then you according to Christianity are going to hell -- so why am I not seeing another thread for objective evidence for Christianity? we have quite the substantial christian population here -- That is in fact if that is all there was to religion. Same for Judaism by the way but given that Jews are less than Sikhs I'll consider their religious views negligible for our purposes!

2- If you don't believe in it, I don't see how it could possibly affect you?
surely you are not writing here with the the same attitude as say some of the members on the discover Islam section, in other words, it appears to most of us, that you've already done your research and made up your mind, in which case I don't see how anyone can meet with your definition of 'objective' -- to choose anyway for life is to have bias.. it isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is simply a partiality that prevents you from doing just that 'keeping objective'

3-Everything comes with some measure of doubt, the focus is, how does does arguing in favor of one side benefit you? If in fact you were able to prove your position beyond a reasonable doubt as an atheist than you'll have put to rest all that talk of religion.. so far none of you were able to accomplish that.. atheists as well a negligible percentage of the population.. in other words, out of the millions of sheep and herds following blindly must be a handful of scholars who still choose to remain theists in spite of atheist objectivity. .. could it possibly be that atheists aren't as objective nor scientific as they like to fancy themselves?

4- There is much more to religion than the ****ation of hell, as according to Islam Allah swt has assigned to himself the law of grace and mercy from which he parted one percent for this world and 99% for the hereafter, so how could you possibly speak of eternal d******** when a mere one percent have parted so much splendor.. (perhaps that is too esoteric for someone who doesn't believe in God all together) but by same token hell and its abyss shouldn't either..

5- I think you concern yourself too much with the affairs of Muslims, given your previous comments.. honestly if I were an atheist, I'd not waste so much time hanging around religious folks.. I'd eat life up.. you only live once, and if you should die chocking on a chicken bone as did my brother's poor neighbor though he has two youg kids, or my dear friend who suddenly collapsed, then what will you have to show for it? You have neither enjoyed it for what it is, nor have you spent wisely for a hereafter even if just to chance it...

I say, go in peace, make friends, have a life and don't worry too much about Muslims or Islam..

all the best

[جوري]

And yes I am aware that muslims interpret this as a vague number of years, however, this goves no real information and only allows them to deflect criticism

how is it vague exactly if it is so mentioned in the Quran? It is a package deal (oh read one), other than that, i think you have a thing or two to learn about proper critique!
There is more to it, than saying I find it objectionable!

So far you strike us as one angry dude who is disenchanted with Islam but can't get a grip on his gripe...


all the best

[IHaveADream]

That is funny, even funnier than the two

1- Do all monotheistic religions D*** you to hell? I'd say strangely enough, if you don't believe that Jesus self-immolated the night before he prayed to himself to eat your sins then you according to Christianity are going to hell -- so why am I not seeing another thread for objective evidence for Christianity? we have quite the substantial christian population here -- That is in fact if that is all there was to religion. Same for Judaism by the way but given that Jews are less than Sikhs I'll consider their religious views negligible for our purposes!

Well, this is an Islamic website, so my first assumption would be that if I made a thread asking for evidence for Christianity, I would get no reply.

[IHaveADream]

2- If you don't believe in it, I don't see how it could possibly affect you?
surely you are not writing here with the the same attitude as say some of the members on the discover Islam section, in other words, it appears to most of us, that you've already done your research and made up your mind, in which case I don't see how anyone can meet with your definition of 'objective' -- to choose anyway for life is to have bias.. it isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is simply a partiality that prevents you from doing just that 'keeping objective'

This is just a silly question, Islam, as well other religions, makes it mark on the entire globe, from it being used as justification for despicable acts to its divisive nature as a whole. Obviously you know what I'm talking about here.

Second the only reason I wrote "objective" is so that no one writes some stupid comment like "I can feel his presence"

[IHaveADream]

3-Everything comes with some measure of doubt, the focus is, how does does arguing in favor of one side benefit you? If in fact you were able to prove your position beyond a reasonable doubt as an atheist than you'll have put to rest all that talk of religion.. so far none of you were able to accomplish that.. atheists as well a negligible percentage of the population.. in other words, out of the millions of sheep and herds following blindly must be a handful of scholars who still choose to remain theists in spite of atheist objectivity. .. could it possibly be that atheists aren't as objective nor scientific as they like to fancy themselves?

Science has proven the falsehoods of religion, however it takes a level of knowledge to understand the facts so the majority of people growing up in an environment in which they are indoctrinated at a young age will not be able to comprehend.

As for your comments about sheep following the herd, it is completely laughable as easily 98% of religious people blindly follow their faith as they are taught it.

[IHaveADream]

4- There is much more to religion than the ****ation of hell, as according to Islam Allah swt has assigned to himself the law of grace and mercy from which he parted one percent for this world and 99% for the hereafter, so how could you possibly speak of eternal d******** when a mere one percent have parted so much splendor.. (perhaps that is too esoteric for someone who doesn't believe in God all together) but by same token hell and its abyss shouldn't either..

I think you are missing the point, the qu'ran threatens hell if you don't accept it as truth. Quite a heavy allegation with so little ammount of proof.

[جوري]

This is just a silly question, Islam, as well other religions, makes it mark on the entire globe, from it being used as justification for despicable acts to its divisive nature as a whole. Obviously you know what I'm talking about here.

Second the only reason I wrote "objective" is so that no one writes some stupid comment like "I can feel his presence"

you mean despicable acts like those committed by Enver Hoxha? Mao Xedong, Sung I1, Lenin, Saloth Sar etc etc.?
Isn't it amazing what a few atheists can do in a few yrs, that religions and plagues alike haven't in their centuries of existence?


Also, you desire objectivity from people, yet have no courtesy to meet them half way through or offer the same with such asinine comments as you have just made above.. Are you too good to be true or just under-educated about world history?

all the best

[IHaveADream]

5- I think you concern yourself too much with the affairs of Muslims, given your previous comments.. honestly if I were an atheist, I'd not waste so much time hanging around religious folks.. I'd eat life up.. you only live once, and if you should die chocking on a chicken bone as did my brother's poor neighbor though he has two youg kids, or my dear friend who suddenly collapsed, then what will you have to show for it? You have neither enjoyed it for what it is, nor have you spent wisely for a hereafter even if just to chance it...

Well, what can I say, I am willing to help my fellow deluded man.

[جوري]

I think you are missing the point, the qu'ran threatens hell if you don't accept it as truth. Quite a heavy allegation with so little ammount of proof.

No, I am not at all missing the point.. you are however on multiple levels and I really do have better things to do with the rest of this evening...

nonetheless, I wish you all the best, and hope another person more patient than myself takes over since I bore quite easily with recycled platitudes!


all the best

[IHaveADream]

you mean despicable acts like those committed by Enver Hoxha? Mao Xedong, Sung I1, Lenin, Saloth Sar etc etc.?
Isn't it amazing what a few atheists can do in a few yrs, that religions and plagues alike haven't in their centuries of existence?


Also, you desire objectivity from people, yet have no courtesy to meet them half way through or offer the same with such asinine comments as you have just made above.. Are you too good to be true or just under-educated about world history?

all the best

This argument has been debunked so many times that it would be redundant for me to repeat it but I guess to get it though your head I will.

Things such as religous wars are done by people to defend their religion and the people doing it are encouraged by their religion to do it. It is not a matter of a person just happening to be religous. For example, if christian was to break their neighbours window, I would not blame it on christianity.

However, these people you have listed, did not commit their acts in thename of atheism.

[IHaveADream]

No, I am not at all missing the point.. you are however on multiple levels and I really do have better things to do with the rest of this evening...

nonetheless, I wish you all the best, and hope another person more patient than myself takes over since I bore quite easily with recycled platitudes!


all the best

Obviously you are happy to create the strawman that I think religion is only here to threaten non-believers with hell, but that only shows willful ignorance on your part.

[جوري]

This argument has been debunked so many times that it would be redundant for me to repeat it but I guess to get it though your head I will.

Things such as religous wars are done by people to defend their religion and the people doing it are encouraged by their religion to do it. It is not a matter of a person just happening to be religous. For example, if christian was to break their neighbours window, I would not blame it on christianity.

However, these people you have listed, did not commit their acts in thename of atheism.

You are redundant indeed it is true.. I'd google some of these characters before answering in what name their crimes were committed considering Hoxha alone and I quote:

"created the first Atheist nation in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

that being said, this will be my last reply to you, I am sure other people here are eager to saved by the powers of your all noetic mind, the same way they look forward to being saved by fundies, Jehovah and Scientologists.. why not get on the band wagon?..


good luck with that and a great evening!

[GreyKode]

And yes I am aware that muslims interpret this as a vague number of years, however, this goves no real information and only allows them to deflect criticism

What do you mean muslims interpret as ...?
In the most ancient and original of arabic dictionaries(Lisan al arab) check the interpretation of the word youm and you'll see that it does mean that.

[IHaveADream]

It seems this discussion has gotten way too off topic, so to clarify, this is a place where you can show something about islam that proves it to be true beyond reasonable doubt. Ok? Not a place to make baseless assertions that someone has never read the quran or that the qu'ran doesn't give enough specifics to be proven wrong.

[GreyKode]

It seems this discussion has gotten way too off topic, so to clarify, this is a place where you can show something about islam that proves it to be true beyond reasonable doubt. Ok? Not a place to make baseless assertions that someone has never read the quran or that the qu'ran doesn't give enough specifics to be proven wrong.

Wrong!.
First, since you are an atheist, I think you should worry about believing in God and then later on start asking whether Islam is the true religion or not.

And foremost, you have to have a motive, you don't come around telling people please convert me, if youre content living the way you do, then nothing will change your mind.

Now, lets consider this hypothetical scenario and be honest with yourself about it, if there was this divine book claiming to be from with the creator, and it contains Maxwell's 4 equations and a detailed description "beyond reasonable doubt" of Einstein's relativity theory, would you then be convinced that its from God the creator and submit to his will unconditionally.

[Najm]

It seems this discussion has gotten way too off topic, so to clarify, this is a place where you can show something about islam that proves it to be true beyond reasonable doubt. Ok? Not a place to make baseless assertions that someone has never read the quran or that the qu'ran doesn't give enough specifics to be proven wrong.

Peace...

Why dont you show us something that about Islam that proves it to be untrue beyond reasonable doubt. Ok!

Peace...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

wow theres so many...

how about the fact that the prophet was illetirate and was given a revelation which surpassed the greatest poets and yet was not poetry.

or that he knew history of so many things (the people of aad, thamud, israelli's and what happened to jesus etc) which as time goes on are proven to be correct

or his prophecies which have always proven to be correct (such as his predictions for outcomes of war etc)


just to name a few


oh and lets not forget the miraculous Quran, which to this day has no equal and no discrepency

[Uthman]

:sl:

Wrong!.
First, since you are an atheist, I think you should worry about believing in God and then later on start asking whether Islam is the true religion or not.

I think that it is possible to prove that Islam is true, and prove the existence of God in the process. I think the proofs of Islam's truthfulness show that there must be a God.

:w:

[YusufNoor]

Assuming God has created Islam for humans to use to get to heaven, one should assume that he should have reasonably provided some sort of evidence in the revelations to allow an objective person to accept the religion, being that many people throughout history have falsely claimed divinity.

So, if anyone would like to debate on this topic, just post any evidence you have found.

PS: Please don't just write something to the effect of "Refer to (add chosen islamic scholar here). Please provide a summary of the specific point you wish to make in order to allow the discussion to be easily accessible. Also avoid just copy and pasting if possible.

Thank you.

going back to step 1, let's discuss the problem that we have here.

the first of which APPEARS to be that you are not an agnostic, but an apostate. there's a BIG difference. why be dishonest?

knowing that you've mislead us, we now need to know what is your intention with this thread? are you genuinely and sincerely looking evidence or is your intent here only to spread [what may be] your discontent?

if we have opposing intentions, this is just a waste of time. i would explain why like this:

using the "Gibreel(as) Hadith" as a reference and the term Ayat:

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab reports: One day when we were with Allah's Messenger (saw), a man with very white clothing and very black hair came up to us. No mark of travel was visible on him, and none of us recognized him. Sitting down beside the Prophet (saw), leaning his knees against his and placing his hands on his thighs, he said: “Tell me, Muhammad, about Islam.” He replied: “Islam means that you should testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad (saw) is Allah's Messenger, that you should observe the prayer, pay the Zakat, fast during Ramadan, and make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to go there.” He said: “You have spoken the truth.” We were surprised at his questioning him and then declaring that he spoke the truth. He said: “Now tell me about Iman.” He replied: “It means that you should believe in Allah (swt), His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and that you should believe in the decreeing both of good and evil.” Remarking that he had spoken the truth, he then said: “Now tell me about Ihsan.” He replied: “It means that you should worship Allah (swt) as though you see Him, for He sees you though you do not see Him.” He said: “Now tell me about the Hour.” He replied: “The one who is asked about it is no better informed than the one who is asking.” He said: “Then tell me about its signs.” He replied: “That a maid-servant should beget her mistress, and that you should see barefooted, naked, poor men and shepherds exalting themselves in buildings.” [Umar] says: He then went away, and after I had waited for a long time, [the Prophet] said to me: “Do you know who the questioner was, Umar?” I replied: “Allah and His Messenger know best.” He said: “He was Gabriel who came to you to teach you your religion.” (Narrated by Muslim)

Maulana Imran Hosein rephrases it thus: Islam is when Islam enters your belief(brain). Iman is when Islam enters your heart. and Ihsan is just as above.

now using Muhsin Kkan's definition of ayat verse 17 from Surat Al Khaf:

17:
Muhsin Khan: And you might have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their Cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the midst of the Cave. That is (one) of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs) of Allah. He whom Allah guides, is rightly guided; but he whom He sends astray, for him you will find no Wali (guiding friend) to lead him (to the right Path).

i would rearrange it all thus:

to a nonbeliever, all of the Ayats of Allah[swt] are merely signs. whether they recognize them or not , they are still signs.

to a Muslim [that is, once Islam enters the brain] the Ayats of Allah[swt] are ALL EVIDENCE!

to a Mu'min [Islam entering the heart], all of the Ayat's of Allah[swt] are PROOF!

to those with Ihsan the Ayat's of Allah[swt] are OVERWHELMING PROOF, no comparisons needed.

how are we supposed to let you see with our eyes?

to me, each day is an ayat, each month is an ayat, each season is an ayat. each birth is an ayat, each death is an ayat. the falling rain is an ayat. each du'a is an ayat, each Salat an ayat, each good deed an ayat. and the failings are also ayat as well. the list goes on and many are mentiuoined repeatedly in the Qur'an.

EVERYTHING is either Alhumdulillah, MashaAllah or SubhanAllah!

i don't speak Arabic either, but i listen to the Qur'an in Arabic and sometimes with English recital as well. HOWEVER, being a revert and one who finds immense Joy in Islam, i spend alot of time listening to lectures. Mufti Ismail Menk and Brother [Dr.] Bashar Shala being my favorite and i also value the wotk of Dr Bilal Philips and Jamal Zarabozo. my wife and i are currently listening to Heavenly Pearls, a 34 part series on Imam An Nawawi's 40 Ahadeeth. Dr Philips has a great 21 part series called Foundations of Islamic Studies and Jamaal Zarabozo has a magnificent 28 part lecture on Al Fatihah. Brothers Menk and Shala have MANY MANY works that i love, especially Menks talks on Asbab Un Nazool and Shala's Islamic History. i would say that they both are GIFTED in describing the BEAUTY of Islam with Brother Menk's strong point being Islam and Brother Shala's being the Qur'an [and history].

alot of Mufti Menks lectures are here:
http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html

while Brother Bashar Shala's work appears here [click on media, there's alot more]:
http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me...rophet%20(pbuh)


commenting on your original post no one in Islam is claiming false divinity. and of course that leaves out Shii'aa, Qadiyani, Ahmadiyyas and some Sufi [although the Shaykh i paraphrased above IS a Sufi]. i would say that Allah[swt] created Heaven for man. Islam is simply how we return to Allah[swt]

i don't now what kind of Jahillya or Assibiya you experience as a youngster, i would merely state that Islam is a wonder and that where you find crap, it wasn't Islam, just crap.

make sense?

:w:

[IHaveADream]

Peace...

Why dont you show us something that about Islam that proves it to be untrue beyond reasonable doubt. Ok!

Peace...

Ok, I have an imaginary friend that only I can see. I will continue to believe in it unless you can disprove it beyond reasonable doubt. Do you see the flaw in your argument?

[IHaveADream]

wow theres so many...

how about the fact that the prophet was illetirate and was given a revelation which surpassed the greatest poets and yet was not poetry.

or that he knew history of so many things (the people of aad, thamud, israelli's and what happened to jesus etc) which as time goes on are proven to be correct

or his prophecies which have always proven to be correct (such as his predictions for outcomes of war etc)


just to name a few


oh and lets not forget the miraculous Quran, which to this day has no equal and no discrepency

Before I give a full response, may I know specifically about the miracles or prophecies you are referring to.

[BlackMamba]

21:30 "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
Surah Al Aniyaa.
The Big Bang Theory alluded to in the Quran 1400 years ago.

"And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres."
Surah Al Anbiyaa ayah 33

There are many more scientific facts mentioned in the Quran, many of them were obviously unknown to the Arabs of the time and even to scientists a century ago. The Arabs in the time of Jahiliyyah were crazy.

There are also many literary aspects of the Quran that are amazing and could not have been done my a human. I cannot go and list all of them in a good way just on the top, but ff you really want to learn about Islam and the miracles of it, listen to some lectures by actual alims.

Zakir Naik is very good more on science aspects. http://www.halaltube.com/zakir-naik-...uran-gods-word

Nouman Ali Khan is very good also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaS5NsvZ4yM

If you don't feel satisfied with all the answers we're giving then just watch those videos of learned people rather than complain about not finding substantial proof about Islam.

[Vito]

Ok, I have an imaginary friend that only I can see. I will continue to believe in it unless you can disprove it beyond reasonable doubt. Do you see the flaw in your argument?

You yourself just said that your friend is imaginary... So really, your post is the flawed one.


(here is a hint for future posts. We don't claim to see God.)

[qweretyq]

There are many more scientific facts mentioned in the Quran, many of them were obviously unknown to the Arabs of the time and even to scientists a century ago. The Arabs in the time of Jahiliyyah were crazy.

Zakir Naik is very good more on science aspects. http://www.halaltube.com/zakir-naik-...uran-gods-word

Actually, the whole "science proves Islam" argument is flawed, but I won't go into it as it is off-topic from this thread.

We should not believe in Islam for the science in the Quran. I believe in it because of the phenomenon of Islam in today's world, and believe in the Prophet's word as provided through historical evidence. Consequently, I also reject a lot of the teachings of so-called "scholars". There is no way to convince a non-believer to believe in that word, i.e., there is no science or thought experiment that will directly give evidence of God.

Also, I have yet to watch a Zakir Naik video that doesn't contain many logical fallacies, or statements that are just plainly wrong. Just watch his video on evolution and you'll see what I mean.

[BlackMamba]

:sl:
You talked about the science argument being flawed, tell me how. I'm not trying to use science in the Quran to base my whole belief but I'm using it to prove in yet another way that the Quran is a miracle and is from Allah.
Then you started talking about how scholars shouldn't try to spread Islam. Haha bro this is part of Islam, dawah is compulsary as stated in the Quran, if you dont believe me read surah Al-Asr. You cannot just say "oh these people will never believe there's no proof so whas the point of preaching to them" No that's wrong you can't say that. Allah guides he whom he wills and misguides he whom he wills.
And Dr. Zakir Naik is tight don't mess wit em.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Actually, the whole "science proves Islam" argument is flawed, but I won't go into it as it is off-topic from this thread.

We should not believe in Islam for the science in the Quran. I believe in it because of the phenomenon of Islam in today's world, and believe in the Prophet's word as provided through historical evidence. Consequently, I also reject a lot of the teachings of so-called "scholars". There is no way to convince a non-believer to believe in that word, i.e., there is no science or thought experiment that will directly give evidence of God.

Also, I have yet to watch a Zakir Naik video that doesn't contain many logical fallacies, or statements that are just plainly wrong. Just watch his video on evolution and you'll see what I mean.

What a breath of fresh air!

It's been a long time since I've seen someone speak such sense on these topics on the forum.

Peace

[qweretyq]

:sl:
You talked about the science argument being flawed, tell me how.

Basically, the gist of it is that the Quran requires interpretation and sentences can be interpreted differently. Also, using science to "prove" Quran places science above the Quran. There is more to it; if you want to, read http://www.********************/Andy/fallacies_sri-posts.html#1
Note that both, the Muslim and the Christian agree to that point.

I'm not trying to use science in the Quran to base my whole belief but I'm using it to prove in yet another way that the Quran is a miracle and is from Allah.

Again, you cannot use science to PROVE that it is from Allah, for the reasons mentioned above. But you can use it to suggest it; there is a difference.

Then you started talking about how scholars shouldn't try to spread Islam. Haha bro this is part of Islam, dawah is compulsary as stated in the Quran, if you dont believe me read surah Al-Asr. You cannot just say "oh these people will never believe there's no proof so whas the point of preaching to them" No that's wrong you can't say that. Allah guides he whom he wills and misguides he whom he wills.

Thank you for completely twisting my words. Where in my post did I say scholars should not spread Islam? My argument was that there is always a way that one can argue against scientific statements against the Quran and that there is no strictly scientific method of proving the Quran; i.e. it requires some faith. This does not mean that I believe people should not try to convince others of attaining that faith. I agree that dahwah is important, but it should be done in the right manner.

And Dr. Zakir Naik is tight don't mess wit em.

I do have a problem with people making unsubstantiated claims and providing erroneous statements about events in history.

Please think before you post.

What a breath of fresh air!

It's been a long time since I've seen someone speak such sense on these topics on the forum.

Peace

Thank You. I get tired of some of the nonsense people post around here from time to time as well.

[qweretyq]

For some reason the link got messed up
here it is: http://www.********************/Andy/fallacies.html
the original debate here: http://www.********************/Andy...i-posts.html#1

[qweretyq]

oh, i guess that website is banned
sorry