Learning and Religion

[Hugo]

Here is a general list of books that might be helpful in projects and dissertations. Please remember, these are NOT about you subject specialisation, they are just books that might be useful in building up your research skills. I have marked in bold some books that I regard as being of especial value in you learning about how you tick and what sort of attitudes are needed. If you have time then start with these particularly the books by Dweck and Warnock.

With regard to books on Research Methods itself there are hundreds of them and they can be useful though they often lack precise details on how to do something. For example, one can easily find material on construction of questionnaires but it rarely goes beyond telling you about closed and open questions or sampling schemes and almost never how find the right questions or test for reliability and dimensionality so you will have to read around to get all you might need.

Research and Project text books.
Robson, W., (1997), Strategic Management & Information Systems, Prentice Hall. 0 273 61591 2
Saunders, M. et al, (2002), Research Methods for Business Students, 3e, FT Prentice Hall. 027365804 2
Bluman, A. G., (2006) Elementary Statistics, A Step by Step Approach, 3e, McGraw Hill. 0-07 297621-7
Boyd, R, (2002). Critical Reasoning and Logic, Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0130812218

Feldman, R (1998), Reason and Argument, Prentice-Hall, ISBN: 0136246028
Diestler, S (2008), Becoming a Critical Thinker: A User Friendly Manual 5e, Prentice-Hall, ISBN: 0132413132
Warnock, M (2006), An Intelligent Person’s Guide to Ethics, 3e, Duckworth Overlook, 0-7156-3530-1
Lipton, P, (2004), Inference to the best Explanation, Routledge, 0-415-2424-09 (pbk)
Popper, K (2005), the Open Society and Its Enemies Volume 1, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-23731-9

Popper K, (2006), the Logic of Scientific Discovery, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-27844-9
Blackburn, Simon, (2001), Think, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-285425-9
Blackburn, Simon, (2006), Truth, Penguin, ISBN 0-141-01423-3
Talib, N,N (2007), The Back Swan, Penguin ISBN 978-0-1410-3459-1
Talib, N,N (2007), Fooled by Randomness, Penguin ISBN 978-0-141-034148-4

General and Specific Research Based Guides
Monk, R and Raphael, F (ed), (2000), The Great Philosophers published, Phoenix ISBN 0-75381-136-7
Forstater, M., “The Living Wisdom of Socrates”, Hodder Headliner Audio books.
Harris, P., (2002). Designing and reporting experiments in Psychology, Open University Press. 0335 201466
Creswell, (2007). Qualitative inquiry and research design: Choosing among the five traditions, Sage, 14129 16062

Creswell J.W, (2003), Research Design: Qualitative, Quantitative and Mixed Methods, 2e, Sage. 07619 24426
Denzin, N.K. and Lincoln, Y.S., (2003). The landscape of qualitative research methods, Sage. 07919 26941
Cottrell, C. (2003). The Study Skills Handbook, 2e, Palgrave Macmillan.
Audi, R. (2002), Epistemology: Introduction to the Theory of Knowledge, 2e, Routledge, 978-0415-281096
Tavani, H, (2004). Ethics and Technology: Ethical Issues in an Age of ICT, 2e, John Wiley and Sons. 0-471-24966-1

Wolcott, H.F, (2001), Writing Up Qualitative Research, 2e, Sage Publications, 07619 24299
Leszer Maciasek, (2003), Requirement Analysis and Systems Design, 2e, Prentice-Hall, 0321 20464-6
Yin, Robert K. (2002), Case Study Research: Design and Methods, Sage Publications, 0761925538
Van den Brink-Budgen, R. (2000), Critical Thinking for Students, 3e, How to books, 1-85703-634-4
Blaxter, L., et al, (2003), How to Research, Open University Press
Strauss, Anselm L.; Corbin, Juliet M, (1998), Basics of Qualitative Research: Techniques and Procedures for Developing Grounded Theory, 2e, Sage Publications. 0803959400
Dweck, S.C, (2006), Mindset: The new Psychology of Success, Ballantine Books, ISBN 978-0-345-47232-8
Frazer, L., & Lawley, M. (2000). Questionnaire Design and Administration: A practical Guide. Milton, Qld: Wiley.
Presser, S, et al, (2004), Methods for Testing and Evaluating Survey Questionnaires, Wiley-Interscience, ISBN 978-0-471-45841-8
Goleman, D., (1996), Emotional Intelligence: Why it can Matter More Than IQ, Bloomsbury Publishing PLC, ISBN: 0747528306

Useful web sites
Harvard APA web site - http://www.apastyle.org
Finding books – http://www.abebooks.com or http://www.amazon.co.uk/
Mind Mapping Software - http://www.mindjet.com/us/
Papers and Citation Index – http://www.scholar.google.com
Critical Thinking - http://criticalthinking.org/
Electronic Journal of Business Research Methods - http://www.ejbrm.com/
Online Questionnaires - www.wufoo.com, www.questionpro.com or www.zipsurvey.com
Encyclopaedias - http://www.wikipedia.org/ (ONLY good as a starting point, be very wary of content)
Encyclopaedias - http://www.libraryspot.com/features/encyclopedia.htm
British Standards - http://www.bsonline.bsi-global.com/server/index.jsp
MIL-Standards - http://store.mil-standards.com/
British Computer Society - http://www.bcs.org/ and IEEE - http://www.ieee.org/portal/site
Oxford Reference Online – http//www.oxfordonline.com/library

[جوري]

of the above only emotional intelligence is about the only book with some common sense.
If you want to read 'enemies of democracy' under the guise of 'the open society and its enemies' be my guest ..
the other books on ethics can be better substituted with Coverage of ethics and legalities by conrad fischer -- medical ethics is the closest thing to Islamic ethics as well it has some actual practical not theoretical use in every day life ...

:w:

[Hugo]

of the above only emotional intelligence is about the only book with some common sense. If you want to read 'enemies of democracy' under the guise of 'the open society and its enemies' be my guest .. the other books on ethics can be better substituted with Coverage of ethics and legalities by conrad fischer -- medical ethics is the closest thing to Islamic ethics as well it has some actual practical not theoretical use in every day life ...
:w:

One is a little surprised at such an entry as clearly Gossamer has not read all these books so cannot logically dismiss them as making 'no sense' and since a large number of the listed authors are professors at major Universities one can only wonder what motivated such a baseless attack on me for publishing a list of common reference books? There is no harm in her publishing another list covering the same area, at least that would be useful.

I feel I must defined these esteemed authors a little so if I take the question of ethics, the book I suggested is basic and outlines the principles very clearly. If later one needs to look at ethics in a specific area; such as medical, then there are many such books but here I was simply suggesting a starting text. Warnock (a Cambridge University professor) does not take a religious standpoint (nether does the book on Emotional Intelligence) as the book is meant for everyone not just for some for narrow segment of the market. She understand that one cannot in the modern world in general argue an ethical case using religious dogma but it must be done by a principled and reasoned argument. Mary Warnock has suggested that there are three underlying and perfectly reasonable principles of ethics. She called them:

1. Altruism – this is perhaps easy to understand if we think of the word unselfish and wanting to do good.
   
2. Sympathy – this just means we feel some “pain” for another person.
   
3. Imagination – this sounds perhaps a bit odd but in fact it is probably the hinge on which ethics works. If you have no imagination or never employ it then you cannot see how another person or persons might feel or respond to what you are doing or believing and often you care only for yourself.

Of the other books, Sir Karl Popper was and is an internationally recognised philosopher and his reputation for clarity and honesty is undisputed. He was also a professor at the London School of Economics. The book I mentioned was written in the 1940s and is worth reading because amongst other things it helps you to understand simple things like what a fact is, what is an opinions and so on. That he talks about Plato and vigorously defended liberal democracy as part of that discussion is not surprising if one considers Hitler's Germany at the time and how he had to flee the Nazi invasion of Austria.

Finally, I mentioned Professor Dweck's book called "mindset'. She is a professor at Princeton University (hardly someone who make no sense) and the book emerged from years of painstaking research of how we learn and in my view every student should read it.

I don't know why Gossamer should be so negative. Good authors and good book are there for all of us and whether they have Islamic, Christan, aethesic roots to me is irrelevant it's what they have to say that matters.

[جوري]

One is a little surprised at such an entry as clearly Gossamer has not read all these books so cannot logically dismiss them as making 'no sense' and since a large number of the listed authors are professors at major Universities one can only wonder what motivated such a baseless attack on me for publishing a common list of reference books? There is no harm in her publishing another list covering the same area, at least that would be useful.

Given to how you form an end termination on any subject, such for instance misquoting me above as having dismissed 'them' to 'no sense' I can only wonder what it is you deem proper and worth-while when your ability to read, comprehend and comment on a simple paragraph is rather convoluted -- I have merely pointed out one book as standing out from the list, rather than dismissing the lot. Some of the books on ethics can be better substituted with one comprehensive book on practical ethics, and when it comes to philosophy, well frankly western philosophy is far inferior, it is best to study it under proper scrutiny.. that is if anyone is taking the time to read your comprehensive list to begin with.
Now my conclusion was based not only on what you have written here, but rather your inability to answer simple questions of logic and history on another thread, those following it, know exactly which one!

If I take the question of ethics, the book I suggested is basic and outlines the principles very clearly. If later one needs to look at ethics in a specific area; such as medical, then there are many such books but here I was simply suggesting a starting text.

Indeed, I have suggested a better text. Having spent a great deal of time into the study of ethics and epidemiology myself. Life is about (amongst other things) making life easier for others, not drowning them in jargon. That is if indeed you were interested in a positive response to what you suggest!

Warnock (a Cambridge University professor) does not take a religious standpoint (nether does the book on Emotional Intelligence) as the book is meant for everyone not just some for narrow segment of the market. She understand that one cannot in the modern world in general argue an ethical case using religious dogma but it must be done by a principled and reasoned argument. Mary Warnock has suggested that there are three underlying principles of ethics. She called them:

1. Altruism – this is perhaps easy to understand if we think of the word unselfish and wanting to do good.
2. Sympathy – this just means we feel some “pain” for another person.
3. Imagination – this sounds perhaps a bit odd but in fact it is probably the hinge on which ethics works. If you have no imagination or never employ it then you cannot see how another person or persons might feel or respond to what you are doing or believing and often you care only for yourself.

all such principles are essentially drawn from religion. Psychology is a very esoteric branch of science, and many of its roots can be found in the most basic, fundamentals of any religion or ideology-- it certainly wasn't coined by that branch of science.. save for coining the terms!

Of the other books, Sir Karl Popper was and is an internationally recognised philosopher and his reputation for clarity and honesty is undisputed. He was also a professor at the London School of Economics. The book I mentioned was written in the 1940s and is worth reading because amongst other things it helps you to understand simple things like what a fact is, what is an opinions and so on. That he talks about Plato and vigorously defended liberal democracy as part of that discussion is not surprising if one considers Hitler's Germany at the time and how he had to flee the Nazi invasion of Austria.

Indeed.. 'liberal democracy' is at odds with basic religious tenets.. and I believe I have stated, anyone is free to read it..
liberal democracy has paved the way for the degeneracy of society, going after the very fiber of its being, the single unit that makes the whole (families) If any proffered view point clashes with the the prophet's own guidelines, either explicitly or otherwise, it becomes objectionable; in this light, even the writings of devout Muslims maybe rejected if they lack merit. This selectively lies in the heart of Ibn Sirin's golden rule 9d.110 A.H. 728 C.E)

"this knowledge constitutes your deen (religion) so be wary of whom you take your religion from" This can be logically assessed but is now too expansive for the purposes of this thread.. By all means, I'd in fact prefer that Muslims read such books, so they'd know better how certain ideologies are infiltrating and corrupting their deen!

I don't know why Gossamer should be so negative. Good authors and good book are there for all of us and whether they have Islamic, Christan, aethesic roots to me is irrelevant it's what they have to say that matters.

Indeed good books are good books regardless
1- one should save others a legion of worthless info, if one can
2- one should have a good variety from which to choose (given your own view points and biases) I have merely given my insight of the works that I have read
3- I have in fact endorsed some of the books you have posted as extremely important, thus leaving me at a loss of where you have concluded that I am making it a Jewish/Atheist/Islamic issue?
4- I have offered a better substitute on matters of ethics as per every day practical uses, from a Non-Muslim source...

Perhaps if one examines your intentions more closely, and superimposes it on your opinion from previous threads, you'd better understand, why one might interject such a thread with another point of view...

other than that it is a free forum and everyone is free to participate with what they think it useful.. Or are you afraid of something and seeking to make an issue out of a non-issue?

All the best

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[Hugo]

I have created this thread because Gossamer has tried to turn it into a debate. The Research Methods thread was set up by me as a way of helping people who might want help in that area. I post here Gossamers last message and my response and I ask her to keep debating comment here so that the educational theme of the Research Method thread is not changed.

Given to how you form an end termination on any subject, such for instance misquoting me above as having dismissed 'them' to 'no sense' I can only wonder what it is you deem proper and worth-while when your ability to read, comprehend and comment on a simple paragraph is rather convoluted --

Hugo - I did not misquote you, you said "..of the above only emotional intelligence is about the only book with some common sense" it is your reading the is at fault not mine.

I have merely pointed out one book as standing out from the list, rather than dismissing the lot. Some of the books on ethics can be better substituted with one comprehensive book on practical ethics, and when it comes to philosophy, well frankly western philosophy is far inferior, it is best to study it under proper scrutiny.. that is if anyone is taking the time to read your comprehensive list to begin with.

Hugo - by all means suggest a book on ethics and whether it can be a better substitute as an introductory text is a matter of opinion. These is no such thing as Western philosophy as far as I know and what it might be inferior to, you do not say.

Now my conclusion was based not only on what you have written here, but rather your inability to answer simple questions of logic and history on another thread, those following it, know exactly which one!

Hugo - please be precise and tell us which posts are involved.
Indeed, I have suggested a better text. Having spent a great deal of time into the study of ethics and epidemiology myself. Life is about (amongst other things) making life easier for others, not drowning them in jargon. That is if indeed you were interested in a positive response to what you suggest!

Hugo - better in what sense? Mary Warnock was a professor at Cambridge and led and wrote a Government study on medical ethics. I think therefore she probably knows at least as much and probably more about it than you do.

all such principles are essentially drawn from religion. Psychology is a very esoteric branch of science, and many of its roots can be found in the most basic, fundamentals of any religion or ideology-- it certainly wasn't coined by that branch of science.. save for coining the terms!

Hugo - Mary Warnock in her work speaks of the debt ethics has to religious language because often its the only place one can find the words that are needed. Whether as you seem to suggest everything comes from religion I have my doubts unless one consider non-belief as one.

Indeed.. 'liberal democracy' is at odds with basic religious tenets.. and I believe I have stated, anyone is free to read it.. Liberal democracy has paved the way for the degeneracy of society, going after the very fiber of its being, the single unit that makes the whole (families) If any proffered view point clashes with the the prophet's own guidelines, either explicitly or otherwise, it becomes objectionable; in this light, even the writings of devout Muslims maybe rejected if they lack merit. This selectively lies in the heart of Ibn Sirin's golden rule 9d.110 A.H. 728 C.E)

Hugo - which religious tenets? I can see that what you say here is totally undemocratic and to my mind can lead to oppression because no discussion is allowed and in any case who is to decide that a work 'lacks merit'?

"this knowledge constitutes your deen (religion) so be wary of whom you take your religion from" This can be logically assessed but is now too expansive for the purposes of this thread.. By all means, I'd in fact prefer that Muslims read such books, so they'd know better how certain ideologies are infiltrating and corrupting their deen!

By Hugo - I cannot quite see how any book I listed could possibly be called an Idealogical threat. At least I am encouraged that you are happy for anyone to read any book because as Marie Currie once said: "nothing is to be feared only understood"

Indeed good books are good books regardless
1- one should save others a legion of worthless info, if one can

Hugo - I cannot understand the point being made above

2- one should have a good variety from which to choose (given your own view points and biases) I have merely given my insight of the works that I have read

Hugo - we all have bias, no one is free from that though we can be aware of our own and so be more open and honest. In the book list one supposed my bias is exposed as I would hardly recommend a book I though worthless so I am not sure what possible point you are making

3- I have in fact endorsed some of the books you have posted as extremely important, thus leaving me at a loss of where you have concluded that I am making it a Jewish/Atheist/Islamic issue?

Hugo - I think you are inventing this as I cannot see where I even hinted at this. You I think endorsed one book.

4- I have offered a better substitute on matters of ethics as per every day practical uses, from a Non-Muslim source...

Hugo - where is it then, you gave no proper reference that I can find and when we read it we can judge if its netter or not, its not you place to decide for us is it

Perhaps if one examines your intentions more closely, and superimposes it on your opinion from previous threads, you'd better understand, why one might interject such a thread with another point of view...

Hugo - my intention was to offer some help and advice on research methods. I have spend many years professionally helping large numbers of Muslim students in this area and not one of them has even ever suggested I had some sort of ulterior motive. What I say in other threads on a different matters is not relevant here. It is if I may say so, your paranoia that leads you to suggest such a thing seeing ulterior motives everywhere.

other than that it is a free forum and everyone is free to participate with what they think it useful.. Or are you afraid of something and seeking to make an issue out of a non-issue?

All the best

Hugo - sadly, I think it is you that is making it an issue and what you might be afraid of in this thread I cannot say.

[Hugo]

I am note quite sure why but Gossamer has tried to change the theme of the thread so I have transferred her last comment to a new thread where the sort of issues she wishes to consider may be debated more fully.

This thread is about research methods and I welcome any input or question on that.

[جوري]

--

Hugo - I did not misquote you, you said "..of the above only emotional intelligence is about the only book with some common sense" it is your reading the is at fault not mine.

A book with common sense, doesn't automatically translate to others have 'no sense' -- so I'd say it is actually your fault not mine!

Hugo - by all means suggest a book on ethics and whether it can be a better substitute as an introductory text is a matter of opinion. These is no such thing as Western philosophy as far as I know and what it might be inferior to, you do not say.

I have already suggested a book and given an author's name, you might benefit re-reading all I have written!
Basetti-Sani, Youkim Mourbrac, w.c smith, Kenneth cragg, toby lester, Dr. joseph Puin et. al
I have no problems with their philosophies as far as their own folks are concerned, but arming Muslims with orientalist barbs and setting them to dismiss the book and civilization they have inherited is another story all together!

Hugo - please be precise and tell us which posts are involved.

The shari3a thread, many of my queries went unanswered, after a prolonged circuitous route where you feigned knowledge in a matter well beyond your scope all around, from the words you wrote to the 'credible' sources you quoted!

Hugo - better in what sense? Mary Warnock was a professor at Cambridge and led and wrote a Government study on medical ethics. I think therefore she probably knows at least as much and probably more about it than you do.

Dr. Conrad fisher, M.D The State University of New York: Associate Program Director and Associate Chief of Medicine for the Medical School, amongst a few of his titles, if we are solely going by the weightiness of titles? I rather focus on contents-- which he makes very easy for students and staff alike, that is if anyone has interest in such books to begin with. His books go beyond the theoretical to actual practical applications
lastly, you don't know what it is, I do know or don't, thus I'd refrain from commenting!

Hugo - Mary Warnock in her work speaks of the debt ethics has to religious language because often its the only place one can find the words that are needed. Whether as you seem to suggest everything comes from religion I have my doubts unless one consider non-belief as one.

I have no idea what the above means?

Hugo - which religious tenets? I can see that what you say here is totally undemocratic and to my mind can lead to oppression because no discussion is allowed and in any case who is to decide that a work 'lacks merit'?

Even under democracy the majority dictate to the few. This being a largely Islamic forum, I'd say I am within the democratic consensus! other than that, we have democracy to thank for such things as the colonial zionist settler state of Israel, for oppression of folks in Chechnya, Bosnia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, soon enough syria.. Does democracy equal to freedom so long as it agrees only with your values?

By Hugo - I cannot quite see how any book I listed could possibly be called an Idealogical threat. At least I am encouraged that you are happy for anyone to read any book because as Marie Currie once said: "nothing is to be feared only understood"

Hardly an ideological thread, see my previous paragraph, further, I have stated and this is the third time, I most certainly encourage young Muslims to read such books to see exactly what awaits them in the world!

Indeed good books are good books regardless
1- one should save others a legion of worthless info, if one can

Hugo - I cannot understand the point being made above

The point is simply, there is no reason to chase after obsolete and stagnant philosophies that have been proven a failure-- and to keep current as well in keeping with Islamic traditions and jurisprudence!

Hugo - we all have bias, no one is free from that though we can be aware of our own and so be more open and honest. In the book list one supposed my bias is exposed as I would hardly recommend a book I though worthless so I am not sure what possible point you are making

What you present outside of philosophy and religion is no concern of mine, folks are free to read as they please.. however when it comes to Islam, and certainly anyone is free to write about Islam, but only a devout Muslim has legitimate preorgative on Islamic and related subjects and philosophies. If you consider that biased, who isn't? Non-followers can't claim neutrality, for their writings swerve depending on whether Islam's tenets agree or disagree with their personal beliefs.. Jewish/christian/ loose Muslims' opinion maybe unequivically discarded.

Hugo - I think you are inventing this as I cannot see where I even hinted at this. You I think endorsed one book.

Hinted at what? You've placed the book 'emotional intelligence' on your list, and I agreed that it is a good book.. where is the invention?

Hugo - where is it then, you gave no proper reference that I can find and when we read it we can judge if its netter or not, its not you place to decide for us is it

I have referenced Dr. Fischer's book four time.. I never suggested you read, I merely suggested based on the few books on ethics that I have read, that his is the easiest to understand. You are free to disagree, but given that you yourself have not read it, I don't see how you can comment or decide? Do you just enjoy being objectionable?

Hugo - my intention was to offer some help and advice on research methods. I have spend many years professionally helping large numbers of Muslim students in this area and not one of them has even ever suggested I had some sort of ulterior motive. What I say in other threads on a different matters is not relevant here. It is if I may say so, your paranoia that leads you to suggest such a thing seeing ulterior motives everywhere.

I have my reservations on why Islamic countries allow westerners to teach their kids, it is actually beyond me. I know many of you go to Islamic places, with one purpose in mind, and with such audacity admit it..

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...tealth-crusade

I am sure your intentions are as noble as all that, judging from the other thread...

All the best Hugo - sadly, I think it is you that is making it an issue and what you might be afraid of in this thread I cannot say.

your threads thus far have been much ado about nothing.. your education thread is of some use, but I will wait to see if you shift gears..

all the best!

[Hugo]

I have already suggested a book and given an author's name, you might benefit re-reading all I have written! Basetti-Sani, Youkim Mourbrac, w.c smith, Kenneth cragg, toby lester, Dr. joseph Puin et. al

Hugo - even you must know that just stating a name is not going to be good enough to find a book. Is this the book you are referring to as it was the only one I could find and its obviously not a text book on ethics as such - Fisher, C, (2006), Kaplan Medical USMLE Medical Ethics: The 100 Cases You are Most Likely to See on the Exam, Kaplan Test Prep, ISBN-10: 1419542095

I have no problems with their philosophies as far as their own folks are concerned, but arming Muslims with orientalist barbs and setting them to dismiss the book and civilization they have inherited is another story all together!

Hugo - who is arming anyone, books can be read or not read.

Even under democracy the majority dictate to the few. This being a largely Islamic forum, I'd say I am within the democratic consensus! other than that, we have democracy to thank for such things as the colonial zionist settler state of Israel, for oppression of folks in Chechnya, Bosnia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, soon enough syria.. Does democracy equal to freedom so long as it agrees only with your values?

Hugo - so its better to have one or just a few dictating to the many? Presumably, you have never heard about Muslim crusades - for example into Spain and Tunisa? If you want to talk about oppression do a little study on Iran or Sudan. Have a look at "We are Iran" ISBN 1-84627-001-4.

Hardly an ideological thread, see my previous paragraph, further, I have stated and this is the third time, I most certainly encourage young Muslims to read such books to see exactly what awaits them in the world!

Hugo - the word was threat not thread.

1- one should save others a legion of worthless info, if one can
The point is simply, there is no reason to chase after obsolete and stagnant philosophies that have been proven a failure-- and to keep current as well in keeping with Islamic traditions and jurisprudence!

Hugo - How can one decide that it is stagnant or obsolete or where you talking about Islam. One can hardly be current if it has all been decided by the Salaf's

What you present outside of philosophy and religion is no concern of mine

Hugo - is there anything outside these two areas?

folks are free to read as they please.. however when it comes to Islam, and certainly anyone is free to write about Islam, but only a devout Muslim has legitimate preorgative on Islamic and related subjects and philosophies.

Hugo - I don't follow this. How does one define a devout Muslim and why should no one else be allowed to comment? If its a matter of personal devotion then I largely agree with you. But outside of that NO. If you had the power would you make that a law? You have just defined oppression.

Do you just enjoy being objectionable?

Hugo - if I am objectionable its because in this Board I have been taught by a master.

I have my reservations on why Islamic countries allow westerners to teach their kids, it is actually beyond me. I know many of you go to Islamic places, with one purpose in mind, and with such audacity admit it..

Hugo - they allow it because Islamic countries are backward and do not have the staff or resources to do it. I recently heard the Minster for Education in the UAE say "we are educationally 3rd rate". People go because they are invited and because they have something to give to share and treated as honoured guests. We admit it because we feel indebted because although we give they give back to us in hospitality, respect and love.

your threads thus far have been much ado about nothing.. your education thread is of some use, but I will wait to see if you shift gears..

all the best!

Your feedback is welcome

[GreyKode]

they allow it because Islamic countries are backward and do not have the staff or resources to do it

If youre talking about University education, I think both you and I know very well that a very large number of professors in Engineering and Science fields in the US are originally from Islamic countries(Egypt, Iran etc..). Just because the UAE does it, you generalize to all Islamic countries.

[جوري]

Hugo - even you must know that just stating a name is not going to be good enough to find a book. Is this the book you are referring to as it was the only one I could find and its obviously not a text book on ethics as such - Fisher, C, (2006), Kaplan Medical USMLE Medical Ethics: The 100 Cases You are Most Likely to See on the Exam, Kaplan Test Prep, ISBN-10: 1419542095

That is the one indeed. I believe the concept of simplified ethics is what I have been advocating (high yield points for everyday use). Does your 'textbook' cover more than a hundred situation or simply drown us in technical terminology of no usage?

Hugo - who is arming anyone, books can be read or not read.

Indeed. I prefer they'd go to the correct source to read them, if for nothing else not to dump money into the pockets of occidentalists!

Hugo - so its better to have one or just a few dictating to the many? Presumably, you have never heard about Muslim crusades - for example into Spain and Tunisa? If you want to talk about oppression do a little study on Iran or Sudan. Have a look at "We are Iran" ISBN 1-84627-001-4.

Muslims have done nothing but liberate others and were actually invited in by the Visigoths to ward off oppression... Presumably you haven't read


The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain (Paperback) ISBN-10: 0316168718
or
Muslim Spain and Portugal: A Political History of al-Andalus (Paperback)
ISBN-10: 0582495156
or BESA…When Muslims Saved Jews
By Dina Rabie, IOL Staff

"They came in as guests. They were given Muslim names, they were living with Muslim families," Gershman told IOL.
CAIRO — Norman Gershman has become accustomed to the reactions from people who see his photos and read his stories about Muslims sheltering Jews and saving their lives during the Holocaust. "I had people say 'Muslims save Jews! How is that?'" the American Jewish fine art photographer told IslamOnline.net in a telephone interview.
Gershman has been engaged in a 5-year project that honors stories of Albanian Muslims' heroism in saving thousands of Jews, who either lived in Albania or sought refugee there, during World War II.
The "BESA… a code of honor" project began when he was seeking out photographs of righteous, non-Jews who helped Jews during the Holocaust, in New York.
Gershman was amazed to find among them Muslim names that he was told belongs to Albanians.
His quest then took him to Yad Vashem, the holocaust museum in Jerusalem, where he found more Albanian names.
"I traveled all through Albania and Kosovo where I met the rescuers' children, who are in their sixties or even older, the rescuers' widows, and in some cases the rescuer himself."
After more than four years of collecting stories and shooting black and white photos, Gershman's first exhibition was held last November at Yad Vashem.
The exhibition then went the UN headquarter in New York before starting a world tour.
A full length documentary is in progress along with a fine art book of the heroic profiles of Muslims saving Jews in Albania and Kosovo.
The premier of the film worldwide is expected in 2009.
"I am proud and happy to show this story to the world," Gershman says
Qur'anic BESA
Albanian Muslims saved Jews from the Nazis "to go to paradise."
People usually ask Gershman about the title he chose for the fruit of his painstaking five-year efforts.
"BESA is a tribal Albanian culture that goes back to thousands of years," he explains.
"What BESA says is that if some one knocks on your door you have an absolute obligation – no matter who that person is – to save their lives."
There is no any evidence that any Jew was turned over to Nazis in Muslim-majority Albania.
There were ten times more Jews in Albania after WWII than before.
"In fact, Albania is the only Nazi occupied country that sheltered Jews," says Gershman.
"They came in as guests. They were given Muslim names, they were living with Muslim families."
From the saviors' tales, Gershman found that Albanian Muslims considered BESA a manifestation of the Islamic teachings of keeping the promise and protecting the weak.
"I remember that some of them said 'there is no BESA without the Qur'an.'"
Gershman believes that to Muslim Albanians, the idea of not saving Jews from the Nazis was inconceivable.
"They did this in the name of their religion. They absolutely had no prejudice what so ever.
"I asked them 'why did you do this? What was in the Qur'an that you did this?' They would only smile.
"Some of them said 'we have saved lives to go to paradise.'"
Message to West
Gershman believes the Albanian Muslim heroism is of extraordinary significance.
"In one way it's a small story because we are not talking about hundreds of thousands of people being saved. But it's an important story," he insists.
"It says that there are good people in the world, and they come from every religion."
Gershman says believes that the stories of Albanian religious tolerance left a legacy that runs in the face of stereotyped portrayal of Muslims.
"My message to the Western world is that there are so many good people in the world and so many of them are Muslims," he maintains.
"If you see my pictures and the stories, there is no question that these are good people.
"I defy if anybody sees my pictures, especially in the West, and say that these people are militants or supporters of violence."
The Jewish American, who has studied Sufism, says Islam is not what many Westerners think.
"To me Islam is poetry, is science, is to be with the divine. Islam is beauty."

but, there is no surprise, I personally find you very under-educated, it is a wonder to me at all, you are handing out book advise!

Hugo - the word was threat not thread.

my humble apologies.. replace the D with a T and the statement I have made is still pertinent!

Hugo - How can one decide that it is stagnant or obsolete or where you talking about Islam. One can hardly be current if it has all been decided by the Salaf's

stagnant and obsolete is really akin more with Christianity than Islam -- if the Islam of 7th century Arabia were practiced today with the same fidelity, the Muslim world wouldn't be in this bind.. after ruling 395 yrs the curtains fell for the Sassanid dynasty in a matter of days to Khalid ibn ilwaleed... Muslims acquired three and a half million square miles to the new born Muslim empire, what is now the middle east in a matter of days, contrast that with 'the chosen' maze in a desert of 100 mile for forty yrs, or the joke that is christianity with its Greek Mythology. The choice is obvious as to what is obsolete and what isn't!

Hugo - is there anything outside these two areas?

Is that a rhetorical questions?

Hugo - I don't follow this. How does one define a devout Muslim and why should no one else be allowed to comment? If its a matter of personal devotion then I largely agree with you. But outside of that NO. If you had the power would you make that a law? You have just defined oppression.

I believe I have said you are allowed to comment, your comments are to be firmly rejected. The same way one rejects any psychobabble. You have no supporting evidence whatsoever to what you write. And when you cement your opinion you don't do it based on facts, but on title. And that frankly means Jack!
unlike science, history is a done deal and not open to re-interpretation.. and even with in science itself folks are allowed to amend their beliefs on matters. You quote morons who quote other morons, and neither agree with the other's opinion.. the bottom line is always to malign and disassemble Islam and Muslims, and to properly disseminate incorrect info. to provincial fools such as yourself who fancies himself learned after posting a thread about a book or two. In the end all come out abysmally stupid like Puin who denied the findings that Lester attributed to him!

Hugo - if I am objectionable its because in this Board I have been taught by a master.

Doesn't it bother you, that even with you are so mediocre at doing it?

Hugo - they allow it because Islamic countries are backward and do not have the staff or resources to do it. I recently heard the Minster for Education in the UAE say "we are educationally 3rd rate". People go because they are invited and because they have something to give to share and treated as honoured guests. We admit it because we feel indebted because although we give they give back to us in hospitality, respect and love.

They are third rate because so they choose to be, and are under the impression that when they find a bit of resources, they can squander it on W hores and fundies.. they force their own to leave to the west and when Muslims come to the west, this is what happens:

*BODY,.aolmailheader {font-size:10pt; color:black; font-family:Arial;} a.aolmailheader:link {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal;} a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal;} a.aolmailheader:active {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal;} a.aolmailheader:hover {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal;}

Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.


Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.


they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.





Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says

Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002


(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)


WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.


They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.


The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.


The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.

Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.


http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html

if they'd let go of inviting your ilk, and return to Islam, perhaps they would regain their lost children as well return the glory of what they formerly had!

Your feedback is welcome

Then you shall have it soon enough

all the best

[Hugo]

If youre talking about University education, I think both you and I know very well that a very large number of professors in Engineering and Science fields in the US are originally from Islamic countries(Egypt, Iran etc..). Just because the UAE does it, you generalize to all Islamic countries.

Have you ever thought why this is so, why many University teachers live and work in the West and have deserted or been driven from their home lands, do you know where the vast majority of them received their education. You don't know any of this do you? Try opening you mind to what is there not what is convenient or a party line. Might I just offer one outstanding example of a Muslim Scientist that we should all be proud of:

Reported in New Scientist 5th July 2008
Jim al-Khalili talks about the biography of the Pakistani physicist Abdus Salam who won the Nobel prize for Physics in 1979 for his work on unifying the 4 forces of nature. Salam's theory is regarded as one of the most beautiful ideas in physics but he did not stop there and created The Centre for Theoretical Physics in Trieste, Italy to support researchers from developing countries.

Salam stands as the greatest Islamic physicist for 1,000 years and not since the 11th century polymath Ibn al-Haytham has there been a more influential figure in the field. Salam was born in the Punjab in 1926 and was a devout Muslim all his life but in his homeland was hounded by obscurantists leading to his excommunication from Pakistan because he adhered to the relatively obscure Ahmadis sect.

Khalili states unequivocally that it is to Pakistan's eternal shame that its greatest scientist was not acknowledged because of narrow-minded intolerance toward his brand of religion and until such eminent men (or women) are given the respect they deserve there can be no true Islamic renaissance in science. One might note that Pakistan and Islam are not the only country and religion to act in such a poor fashion to its best contrymen and women.

Nevertheless, he worked tirelessly to promote science in the Islamic world and lobbied world leaders and the UN for funding to help science in developing countries. Not since Einstein has any one scientist been so influential on the world stage.

To read the full biography see: "Cosmic Anger: The First Muslim Nobel Scientist", by Gordon Fraser, Oxford University Press, ISBN 9780199208463

[GreyKode]

Have you ever thought why this is so, why many University teachers live and work in the West and have deserted or been driven from their home lands, do you know where the vast majority of them received their education. You don't know any of this do you? Try opening you mind to what is there not what is convenient or a party line. Might I just offer one outstanding example of a Muslim Scientist that we should all be proud of:

Don't lecture me about why professors leave their homelands, it has little to do with religion, I am a phd student myself and I have been in contact with several professors, and they would love to come back, but its just that there isn't a good infrastructure for research right now, but they are working on it, once it has been established they will be more than happy to come back.

[Hugo]

[I]That is the one indeed. I believe the concept of simplified ethics is what I have been advocating (high yield points for everyday use). Does your 'textbook' cover more than a hundred situation or simply drown us in technical terminology of no usage?

Hugo - Mary Warnock's book is an introductory text, it is A5 and 200 pages long so its relatively easy read but well worth the trouble. The point is one needs a framework of ideas before one looks at cases. Using your book would not be of great value in someone working in politics or IT or business would it? For those who want to go back there is the Gita (OUP 0199538123) which some regard as the finest essay on ethics ever written and of course we have "Ethics" by Aristotle (Penguin ISBN 0-14-044055-0). Both these book pre-date Islam by at least a 1,000 years so Islam did not invent ethics or say anything much new.

Indeed. I prefer they'd go to the correct source to read them, if for nothing else not to dump money into the pockets of occidentalists!

Hugo - I would prefer people go the best source no matter who wrote it. One can find these by talking to Tutors or using citation indexes. If you thinking and bias is pronounced as this then you advice is not reliable. I get the feeling that if a Westerner invented a cure for cancer you would find something to object to about it.

Muslims have done nothing but liberate others and were actually invited in by the Visigoths to ward off oppression... Presumably you haven't read

Hugo - you are just blind, not to say dishonest, even to you own history if you think this is true. I note you refs but try reading "Legacy of the Prophet" (ISBN 0-8133-3779-8) or "Islam in History" (ISBN 0-8126-9518-6).

but, there is no surprise, I personally find you very under-educated, it is a wonder to me at all, you are handing out book advise!

Hugo - you are entitled to you opinion. Personally, you remind me of something Victor Hugo once said "The last thing an owl wants is to be examined by the light of a lamp."

Why don't you go to the Research Methods thread and post something useful there of your own instead of spending your whole time copying from websites, insulting and denigrating the honest work of others. Here is my challenge: explain what it might mean for your choice of data if you thinking was inductive or explain how to construct a Research Question or explain how to formulate a problem or explain how to evaluate a project outcome, anything, lets see you offer something useful instead of your self-righteous arrogance and then we can decide who is educated or not

stagnant and obsolete is really akin more with Christianity than Islam -- if the Islam of 7th century Arabia were practiced today with the same fidelity, the Muslim world wouldn't be in this bind..

Hugo - your probably right because then we would not be burdened by Sharia

after ruling 395 yrs the curtains fell for the Sassanid dynasty in a matter of days to Khalid ibn ilwaleed... Muslims acquired three and a half million square miles to the new born Muslim empire,

Hugo - nice touch that "acquired" = conquered, stole

what is now the middle east in a matter of days, contrast that with 'the chosen' maze in a desert of 100 mile for forty yrs, or the joke that is christianity with its Greek Mythology. The choice is obvious as to what is obsolete and what isn't!

Hugo - the joke seems to be on you. Where do you think Islam got its mythology from? Does God really want you to walk 7 times around a black stone, are there really several gates into heaven, are there really sofas covered in brocade. The middle east is backward because it stifles debate just as you are trying to do. Al Arif al Akhdar has said:

"Why have the people of the world managed to mourn their pasts and move on, while we (Muslims) have... our gloomy bereavement over a past that does not pass" and "The idea of taking responsibility for the ills of one's own society lost out to the ease of blaming everything on evil foreigners".

Finally, it is well to remember that the Tartar tribes of central Asia used to pronounce a certain curse over their enemies. They didn't hurl words calling for their enemy's swords to rust or their people to die of disease. No, they said, 'May you stay in one place forever’

I believe I have said you are allowed to comment, your comments are to be firmly rejected. The same way one rejects any psychobabble. You have no supporting evidence whatsoever to what you write. And when you cement your opinion you don't do it based on facts, but on title. And that frankly means Jack!

Hugo - I assume you are talking about you own work. Evidence for you is what you are attached to, nothing else matters. We see it in you posts where for example you dismissed a whole reading list without a shred of evidence.

unlike science, history is a done deal and not open to re-interpretation.. and even with in science itself folks are allowed to amend their beliefs on matters. You quote morons who quote other morons, and neither agree with the other's opinion.. the bottom line is always to malign and disassemble Islam and Muslims, and to properly disseminate incorrect info. to provincial fools such as yourself who fancies himself learned after posting a thread about a book or two. In the end all come out abysmally stupid like Puin who denied the findings that Lester attributed to him!

Hugo - the is such an absurd stance that it is hardly worthy of a comment. I quoted Professor Charfi, a distinguished professor of Islamic law but for you he is a moron.

If any one is maligning Islam it is you with your constant personal abuse, racist remarks and spite. I have tried in some small way to help students both in posts and private emails and you for your own spiteful reasons find that not to your liking. Well I have challenged you above so lets see what you can do. You might like to consider what Rousseau said

"The belief that there is no hatred that cannot be disarmed by gentleness and honest behaviour. Whereas, on the contrary, the hatred of wicked men is only increased by the impossibility of finding any justification for it; the feeling of their own injustice is only an additional grievance against the object of their dislike."

[جوري]

Hugo - Mary Warnock's book is an introductory text, it is A5 and 200 pages long so its relatively easy read but well worth the trouble. The point is one needs a framework of ideas before one looks at cases. Using your book would not be of great value in someone working in politics or IT or business would it? For those who want to go back there is the Gita (OUP 0199538123) which some regard as the finest essay on ethics ever written and of course we have "Ethics" by Aristotle (Penguin ISBN 0-14-044055-0). Both these book pre-date Islam by at least a 1,000 years so Islam did not invent ethics or say anything new.

everyone comes in with pre-conceived motivation based on ideas of right and wrong, the book illuminates and defines it for them. In a simple fashion. If folks want to read Ethics in business as per your advisement, well I suppose they too will succumb to Ponzi schemes.. I think the book Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (ISBN 0-452-28708-1) sums up western business ethics to a T.. other than that the name of the game is 'made easy' -- as for inventing ethics, I never said Islam invented them and I challenge you to quote me have stated such a statement. Islam however has refined them!

Hugo - I would prefer people go the best source no matter who wrote it. One can find these by talking to Tutors or using citation indexes. If you thinking and bias is pronounced as this then you advice is not reliable. I get the feeling that if a Westerner invented a cure for cancer you would find something to object to about it.

That is not true at all. Science is generally well kept apart from the politics of fundies, although they try to get their ignorant medieveal grip on it!
Once you invent such things as a double blind trial for bible thumpers to compare their literature, can we have this conversation about what it is I subscribe to and what it is I object to!

Hugo - you are just blind, not to say dishonest, even to you own history if you think this is true. I note you refs but try reading "Legacy of the Prophet" (ISBN 0-8133-3779-8) or "Islam in History" (ISBN 0-8126-9518-6).

Actually, you are the one who is blind, and for a self-professed intellectual, you relay on borrowed quotes and Islamophobic rhetoric quite often, You make scholars of imbeciles, and wish for folks to subscribe to the part of history that you deem correct. Again, History is a done deal and not subject to your whims.
I have given quite a few links to books, surprisingly not written by Muslims, but by respected historians!

Hugo - you are entitled to you opinion. Personally, you remind me of something Victor Hugo once said "The last thing an owl wants is to be examined by the light of a lamp."

I rest my case..
you remind me of this quote, since we are on the exchange

Aphorisms are essentially an aristocratic genre of writing. The aphorist does not argue or explain, he asserts; and implicit in his assertion is a conviction that he is wiser and more intelligent than his readers. --Auden

Why don't you go to the Research Methods thread and post something useful there of your own instead of spending your whole time copying from websites, insulting and denigrating the honest work of others. Here is my challenge: explain what it might mean for your choice of data if you thinking was inductive or explain how to construct a Research Question or explain how to formulate a problem or explain how to evaluate a project outcome, anything, lets see you offer something useful instead of your self-righteous arrogance and then we can decide who is educated or not

You have an interesting spin on honest work... and for someone who relies on cheesy quotes and bottom sellers and inability to answer simple historical questions to points you assert with bravado, quite the nerve. Rummage through my old posts, you'll find a host of threads--'From the medical student review'
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...nt-review.html
to a book club
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...book-club.html
to refutations
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ry-defeat.html

to threads on art
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...-splendor.html

and tons more.. so you are right, I'll leave it to others to decide who is educated and who isn't!

Hugo - your probably right because then we would not be burdened by Sharia

You are not burdened by anything save for centuries of ignorant bliss pushing on others especially in under-developed areas the self-immolating man/god for a bribe!

Hugo - nice that "acquired" = stole

The Muslim empire is its own testament to its greatness!

Hugo - the joke seems to be on you. Where do you think Islam got its mythology from? Does God really want you to walk 7 times around a black stone, are there really several gates into heaven, are there really sofas covered in brocade. The middle east is backward because it stifles debate just as you are trying to do. Al Arif al Akhdar has said:

Actually if you'd gone to an ISlamic source to get your info, you'd have known that was the path of Abraeham and Hagar on the day he was to sacrifice his son Ishmael! (his only son) as per bible!

Finally, it is well to remember that the Tartar tribes of central Asia used to pronounce a certain curse over their enemies. They didn't hurl words calling for their enemy's swords to rust or their people to die of disease. No, they said, 'May you stay in one place forever’

you should read the sword of Muhammad by Yuri Avneri a self-professed atheist Jews-- then you might have a better idea what was won by the sword, or a little history of how Islam spread into southeast Asia..in fact if anyone loves the sword so much, it is the benumbed fundies, who have no clue what it is their fighting for.. God, his mother, or his son, or his shadow..

Hugo - I assume you are talking about you own work. Evidence for you is what you are attached to, nothing else matters. We see it in you post where you dismissed a whole reading list with a shred of evidence.

I didn't dismiss a reading list, I pointed out the best and warned others as to be careful as to your intentions given what you write, you are not the best qualified at what is good.

Hugo - the is such an absurd stance that it is hardly worthy of a comment. I quoted Professor Charfi, a distinguished professor of Islamic law but for you he is a moron.

I never said Charfi is a moron, in fact I challenge you to quote me saying 'charfi is a moron' I did however state, I am not familiar with his work to comment on him, I simply consider the source who brought us an apostate (ibn waraq) and passed him as a scholar before I take anything from you with more than a grain of salt!

If any one is maligning Islam it is you with your constant personal abuse, racist remarks and spite. I have tried in some small way to help students both in post and private emails and you for your own spiteful reasons find that not to your liking. Well I have challended you above so lets see what you can do.

Challenged me to what you gadfly? I don't think you are helpful at all, even if some of the stuff you post is of substance, it is completely marred by your fundy agenda. I am on to you, and whenever I have the time I'll expose you as I have done on the shari3a thread!

"The belief that there is no hatred that cannot be disarmed by gentleness and honest behaviour. Whereas, on the contrary, the hatred of wicked men is only increased by the impossibility of finding any justification for it; the feeling of their own injustice is only an additional grievance against the object of their dislike."

I prefer better to quote the noble Quran

[Pickthal 5:8] O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.


all the best!

[Hugo]

Don't lecture me about why professors leave their homelands, it has little to do with religion, I am a phd student myself and I have been in contact with several professors, and they would love to come back, but its just that there isn't a good infrastructure for research right now, but they are working on it, once it has been established they will be more than happy to come back.

Is this your typical response to critical questioning, is that what you do in your PhD when your supervisors offer criticism - tell them they are 'lecturing you' and you know better? I asked you legitimate questions and even if one of the answers is 'lack of infrastructure' then why is that?

The essence of PhD study is that you are open to critical thinking and critical questioning and it matters not a whit whether you like the questions or not because they will not go away least of all because your are a PhD student.

Consider:
1000 years ago in the golden age of Islam if anyone brought any book in any language from anywhere they were paid in gold equivalent to the weight of the book (and books were big things back then) such was the thirst for knowledge. What has happened since then - no infrastructure?

There was a huge library in Alexandria long before Islam and after Islam - why don't you go and find out who destroyed it?

Look up the life of Ibn Rusd, one of the greatest minds ever and find out how he was treated by his Muslim brothers.

There is a common idea called Ijitihad and most take it to mean reflection on what has gone before or what you already know. This word implies that reflection takes time and is a struggle because it may mean we have to accept new knowledge, modify what we thought you knew or even get rid of knowledge that is not longer valid or useful or right. This does not mean we have to give up what we believe or know but it does mean we have to be willing to critically review it.

[جوري]

lol.. and this fellow wonders why we find him under-educated!

a little piece on the Library of Alexandria .. Do you wonder why I warn others of books and things you post? I am ecstatic you give me an opportunity to expose you with every post.. Kudos!

The Library of Alexandria

All the said above has proved that Islam advocates science and knowledge, it is the religion of the mind and thought. But another orientalist would say: "Why, then did Amr ibn-al-As by order of Umar Ibn al-Khattab burn the library of Alexandria which was full of books? This work has deprived humanity of a great treasure of learning. And the library was burnt by Arabs who thought that the literature and writings in the library contradict Islamic views and traditions. How does the religion of science account for burning the library of Alexandria?"

In fact several Western writers dealt with the topic of the Library of Alexandria such as Gibbon, Butler, Sedillot and others but they didn't reach a final judgment. Many writers suspect the whole story. Gustav Lebon in "The Arab Civilization" emphasizes that the story is only a myth and says that "The said burning of the Library of Alexandria is a barbarian action which does not agree with Arab or Muslim morality. Man would enquire: 'How could prominent scholars believe such a story for a long time?' This story which was rejected in our time need not be discussed again. Nothing is easier than proving that Christians themselves burnt the books of the polytheists before Islamic conquest." Jack. S. Wrestler in his book considered the Alexandria fire a myth. "The historians who were contemporary of the Islamic conquest like Otikha did not have anything in their books about accusation. Books of the Old Arab historians also such as: Al Yaqubi, Balathery, Ibn Abdel Hakam, Tabari, Al Kindi, Al - Maqrizi, Abul Mahasen, Al Suyouti and others did not mention any thing of the kind." The first one to say that Amr ibn--al-As burnt the library was Abdul Latif Al Baghdadi (1231), then came Ibnul Qafti (1248) and Abul Faraj Gregorius Al Malti, known as Ibnul Ibri or (son of Hebrew) without documentation. Modern historian who quoted them wanted to prove the following:
1. Muslims had a great desire to destroy any book except the Quran and the Traditions.
2. The story of the fire was not only told by Abul Faraj but was also told by two Muslim historian: Al Baghdadi and Ibnul Qafti.
3. The conquerors burnt also the books of Persians as was told in Haji Khalifa's book "Kashful Zunoon."
4. Burning books was a common thing done by everyone who wanted to punish those who opposed him as Hulagu the Tartar did when he threw the books of the Muslims in the Tigris river.

We say that the first idea is not accepted: it was the Muslim's habit to encourage science. Abul Faraj himself said that Amr ibn-al-As listened to Yuhanna (John) the Grammarian. As for the Haji Khalifa's saying, we can say that he is not considered as a good reference in historical matters because he died in 1657 A.D. And if the Muslims had burnt those books, other historians who lived before Haji Khalifa would have mentioned that in their books. Comparing Hulagu with Umar Ibn al- Khattab is irrelevant because the former wanted to destroy the civilizations of his time while the latter intended to spread intended to spread culture and knowledge. Some historians of our times spoke much about the tale of Abul Faraj concerning the library.
These historians believe that Amr and Umar are innocent and had nothing to do with the accusation of the burning. Here is what Abul Faraj said "At the time of the Arab conquest there was a famous man called Yahya ( John) the Grammarian. He was a priest in Alexandria. He believed in Jacobite Christianity and hailed the (Sauri) creed. Then he refused the idea of Trinity. The bishops met him and asked him to return to their creed but he refused, so they lowered his rank. He lived till the Arab conquest of Alexandria. He met Amr who was known for encouraging science. Amr honored him and heard his philosophical speech and was so pleased with this that he kept his company and made him very close to himself. One day Yahya said to Amr: 'You have confiscated everything in Alexandria. What you need or you find useful to you is yours without objection but what you do not want I would take it'. Amr said: 'What do you want?' Yahya said: 'The books of philosophy in the royal cupboard'. Amr said: 'I cannot do this without consulting the Prince of the Believers Umar ibn-al-Khattab'. So Amr wrote to ibn-al-Khattab asking for the advice. Umar replied 'As for the books you have mentioned I can say that those which agree with the Book of God (The Quran) are to be disposed of because Quran is sufficient. And if they have things which contradict the Quran, so they must be deposed of'. So Amr distributed those books to the public baths of Alexandria to burn in their fire places. Those books were exhausted in six months. Hear that and wonder!."

1. We can say first that this narration seems as a myth. Ibn Al Ibri said that the books were enough to heat four thousand baths - which existed in Alexandria - for six months and this seems unreasonable because the books which were allegedly burnt were 700 thousands books. If they had been burnt in 4000 baths then each bath would have taken 175 books. This number would last only for a few days not for six months. We doubt also that there were 700 thousand books or pamphlets because if we supposed that each author wrote twenty books then the number of authors would be thirty thousand and that seems imaginary at that time of the ancient world, not to count the authors in Greece and Rome. Besides, if Ibn-al-As had wanted to destroy the library he would have burnt it at once and wouldn't have left it to the owners of the said baths. Yuhanna or others would have taken those books from the bath owners for the possible prices and many of those books would have appeared later, which never happened.

2. Butler also mentioned that the said John Yuhannah had died thirty or forty years before Islamic conquest of Egypt.
3. If the tale had been true then the early historians would have said something about it, however brief.
4. They said the library was burnt twice, first in this year 48 B.C. as a result of the burning of Julius Caesar's fleet, and the second in A.D. 391 during the period of the Caesar Theodosis (338-395). The tale, then, of the burning of the Library was told with these two accidents as models.

5. Orazius visited Alexandria in the first part of the fifth century and told that at his visit of the library he saw the shelves without books. Therefore, the books which were in the library from the Ptolemian period were not existent at the end of the fourth century [A.D.) i.e., since the period of the Theodosis, at the time of the second burning. The library was not mentioned in the literature of the sixth or the seventh centuries. It is known that Egypt before the Islamic conquest since the period of Diocletian was in a state of deterioration in agriculture, industry, science, knowledge and literature. And it would not be possible that the people at that time cared for restoring the library to what it was before.
6. Islamic teachings advocate respect of all religion and their books and Muslims can, without reservations, benefit from those books. So, the tale seems contradictory to the Islamic practices which would not allow any bad treatment of anything bearing the name of God.
7. Supposing the library was still existing at the time of the Islamic conquest, nothing could prevent carrying the library to Constantinople by the Romans during the truce with the Muslims. Besides, Amr allowed them to carry with them whatever they could carry. They had enough time to carry several libraries, not only one. And the tale is merely a lie.
8. The phrase which Abul Faraj wrote at the end of this tale "Hear this and wonder!" may be understood in various ways:
a. That the tale is untrue and impossible.

b. That he believed the story was prejudiced against Umar and Amr.
Anyhow, such wondering and call to hear has something of inexactness and unfairness which makes the tale a mere lie.
The Arabs Islamic civilization which gave the world great scientific progress in all the fields of life did that because the Holy Quran asks Muslims to do so by saying: "Say [O Muhammad] are they equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition" (Quran: XXXIX - 9). We see then that God honors knowledge and its people, and considers them privileged over others. God makes the testimony of the scholars equal to His testimony and that of the angels when he says in the holy Quran "There is no god but He. That is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing from justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in power, the Wise." (The Quran: III - 18 ) So God honors scholars when he makes His witness equal to that of the angels and that of the scholars. God also instructs Muhammad, to supplicate by saying "My Lord grant me more knowledge" (Quran: XX - 114), that knowledge which benefits man in this life and in the hereafter. Islam makes reason the basis for judging every case. In the Quran, we find so many verses which have phrases like "Ulal albab" or "Ulunuuha" which mean (people of good reason or mind). In other instances, we find phrases which address (people who understand well). Islam calls for all kinds of science which erase ignorance in life or in religion.

The Quran calls man to study the natural sciences: "Do you not see that God sends down rain from the sky? With it, we then bring out produce of various colors. And in the mountains are tracts, white and red, of various shades of color and black intense in hue. Also so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colors. Those truly fear God among his servants who have knowledge; for God is Exalted in Might Oft-Forgiving" (Quran: XXXV - 27.) Men of knowledge here are those who know the evidence and secrets of creation which God deposited in things. No one could understand how the rain falls from the clouds without learning physics and chemistry, nor how plants grow without learning some thing about botany, nor could we know anything about mountains and their kinds and styles without the science of geology. God says in the holy Quran: "Those who really fear God are the scholars" (Quran: XXX - 25). God says that those who really fear Him are the people who study the universal evidences. If the scholars were believers their knowledge of the secrets of nature would make them fear God, the Great Creator, who made the rules for every thing. In the holy Quran, we find also a call to study biology. "Let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs" (Quran: LXXXV - 5 -7) The different phases of creation of an embryo are part of the science of biology and medicine. Islam calls to the study of history and social sciences: "Do not they travel through the Earth and see what was the end of those before them? They were superior to them in strength: they tilled the soil and populated it in great numbers than these have done. There came to them their apostle with Clear Signs (which they rejected, causing their own destruction); it was not God who wronged them but they wronged their own souls." [The Quran: XXX 9] God also says: "But how many generations before them did we destroy [for their sins], stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land. Was there any place of escape for them?" (Quran: C - 26.) In the Quran, there is also a call to study astronomy. The names of some Suras or chapters of the Quran are like this : The Thunder, The Light, The Smoke, The Star, The Moon, The Ways of Ascent (to Heaven), The Signs, The Night-Visitant (a star), The Dawn, The Sun, The Night, The Morning Light, The Earthquake. All the above mentioned chapters call to scientific research about the earth and the heavens. One reads in the Quran: "Say 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth. But neither signs nor warners profit those who believe not" (Quran: X - 101) And "Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of Night and Day, there are indeed signs for men of understanding" (Quran: III - 190.) A lot of the traditions of the Prophet urge Muslims to resort to medicine when they get ill. All the traditions concerning preservation of health and the rules for food and drink have been gathered under the title of "Prophetic Medicine."

If we wanted to mention everything about Islam's call to science in all its kinds, it would take us too much time. It suffices to know that Islam considers the whole community guilty, if they did not have enough numbers of scholars in every field of specialization. The Muslim jurisprudents even say that if the community needed a hundred scientists in one field and they had only ninety then the whole nation would be considered guilty until they manage to have the required number. Many western scientists and scholars have recognized the great Islamic progress in the fields of medicine, chemistry, biology, mathematics, philosophy, social sciences, geography, history and astronomy. Zigrid Honke's book about the effects of the Arab civilization on Europe is a testimony of gratitude to the Arabs for the sciences they have provided to humanity. Gustav Lebon says that Islam is one of the closest religions to the discoveries of science (Gustav Lebon: The Arab civilization. p.126) Dreiber, a professor at the university of New York, author of "The Conflict between Religion and Science", says that Baghdad became the greatest capital of science and knowledge on earth in the days of the Abbasid - Al Ma'amoun in 813, who collected innumerable books, honored men of science and was very generous to them. Dreiber added, that the Arabs greatly developed the old sciences and discovered some sciences unknown before. The universities of Muslim countries were open to European students who traveled to those universities for the sake of science and learning. Even the kings and princes of Europe visited the Muslim countries for treatment in their hospitals. Sedillot in his book (History of the Arabs) said "In the Middle Ages the Arabs were unique in science, philosophy and art. They spread knowledge wherever they went. Their science moved to Europe and that was the reason for its rise and progress." Sedillot continues to say "When Muslims talked about earth as being a sphere, there was a great trouble in the Christian world. The Church decreed that Christopher Columbus was against religion when he went across the Atlantic ocean hoping to discover a new land! The meeting of (Salamonk) agreed on that and nothing saved him but the intrusion of some kings of Europe. The Church people consulted the saying of the Fathers, the Letters of the Apostle, the Bible, Psalms and Old Testament and found Columbus guilty." "It is really ridiculous to know that the Church was enraged when a lady called Mary Montage in 1721 introduced the method of injecting virus under the skin as a way of treatment. This was in fact discovered by the Muslims (Sedillot in his book "Islam, a Universe Call.)" Gustav Lebon says in his book "Arab civilization": "We cannot see in history a nation of such vast influence as the Muslim Arabs. All the nations who contacted them adopted their civilization even for a period." He adds: "The influence of the Arabs in the East was not only clear in religion, language and arts but also in the scientific culture." Professors Libri says: "If the Arabs had not existed on the stage of history, the rise of Europe would have been delayed for centuries."

http://www.muhajabah.com/docstorage/alexandria.htm

in closure, Muslims on board. If you want to take your knowledge from this guy, then be my guest, but at least read a couple of other books on the side, as his are recommendations to cement his OPINION and not historical facts!

:w: