Original sin and disbelief in Adam

[Malaikah]

Hi all!

My (limited) understanding is that Christians have this concept of original sin because Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden fruit in Paradise.

My question is - for those Christians who deny that Adam and Eve existed and say that it is just a 'story' and instead believe in evolution, what happens to the concept of original sin??

And I guess to put things in perspective, is the denial of the existence of Adam and Eve something believe only by Christians with weak faith or limited knowledge, or is this part of the teachings of the Church itself (depending on the denomination, I guess)?

I hope that makes sense, and I'm looking forward to your thoughts!

[mkh4JC]

My understanding is that some "Christians" don't believe in the story of creation as it's described in the Bible because they don't think you should read what should be taken literally, literally. So something like Jesus feeding the four thousand they wouldn't believe, or Jesus walking on water, because they would take a highly subjective view of scripture and disregard what the text says.

In the case of the creation story and the fall, it is important to note that the belief that Adam and Eve bought the curse of sin on the entire world is part of the historic orthodox Christian faith, so you really shouldn't concern yourself with those who say otherwise.

[memories]

Ah! the story of Adam and Eve should be regarded as symbolic, we are the fruit of evolution, natural selection, just like every other creature on this planet.

No, the denial of this symbolic story shouldnt be attributed to people with weak faith etc, it should be attributed to open minded people, their are many scientific studies I could cite here to prove my point, Its just so obvious, Natural selection and evolution is what its all about, regard the story of Adam and Eve as symbolic,Thats is all. Facts can bump out these stories and give them their rightfull place: Legend/symbolic just like the beleif that the earth was flat!

[Pygoscelis]

The story of Adam and Eve stands out for me for three reasons.

1. It shows that the writer holds obedience over morality.

The fruit was the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, so before they ate the fruit they had no idea if it was "good" to obey God. Yet they are punished for eating the fruit and the writer sees this as just.

2. The writer believes in transferal of punishment.

Adam eats the fruit, so all men are to suffer. The child is held responsible for the sin of the parent. This concept is frowned upon in most modern societies (you won't get put in jail for something your dad did) but in this spiritual story it is considered just.

3. What the heck was the snake?

Was the Snake satan or just a snake? And if it was Satan then why were snakes punished?

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[memories]

The story of Adam and Eve stands out for me for two reasons.

1. It shows that the writer holds obedience over morality.

The fruit was the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, so before they ate the fruit they had no idea if it was "good" to obey God. Yet they are punished for eating the fruit and the writer sees this as just.

2. What the heck was the snake?

Was the Snake satan or just a snake? And if it was Satan then why were snakes punished?

No idea what the snake means, but snakes are spooky!!! And spooky stuff is a fine ingredient in any legend/story.:smile:

[Keltoi]

The Adam and Eve story is largely accepted as literal by most Christians, albeit with an understanding that elements could and most likely are allegory. That doesn't change the spiritual separation from God that came about as a result of their actions. That is what Christians are meant to take away from the story, not unanswerable questions about ribs and fruit.

As for the snake, the Bible never states that the snake is Satan. It is most likely a metaphor for what Satan represents, which is temptation and a fall from grace.

[Pygoscelis]

The bible teaches that men are made from dirt and women are made from ribs.

This explains why women taste so much better than men.

[mkh4JC]

The story of Adam and Eve stands out for me for three reasons.

1. It shows that the writer holds obedience over morality.

The fruit was the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, so before they ate the fruit they had no idea if it was "good" to obey God. Yet they are punished for eating the fruit and the writer sees this as just.

Adam and Eve were created spiritually innocent. We as fallen human beings don't know what that is like, as we can distinguish good from evil. We know that they had a relationship with God unlike what we are capable of having with him today though, and we know that they had free will to choose to obey or to disobey God.

2. The writer believes in transferal of punishment.

Adam eats the fruit, so all men are to suffer. The child is held responsible for the sin of the parent. This concept is frowned upon in most modern societies (you won't get put in jail for something your dad did) but in this spiritual story it is considered just.

Well, it is true that through Adam sin entered into the world, and death by sin. But, even if Adam didn't sin, there would have still been individuals who would have ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, who would have produced offspring. I don't pretend to understand why God allowed the fall to happen though.

3. What the heck was the snake?

Was the Snake satan or just a snake? And if it was Satan then why were snakes punished?

I believe that Satan possessed the snake. In the Gospels we see that the devils beg Jesus to send them into the swine that are feeding. There are also some Bible commentators who believe that before the fall Adam and Eve were able to communicate with animals. The fall pretty much tainted everything.

[Malaikah]

Pygoscelis - just FYI, none of the points you mentioned apply to the Islamic version of the story.

memories - so does this mean you disbelieve in original sin?

[Whatsthepoint]

A Christian friend once said to me Adam and eve represent the stage in human development where we got our free will and the apple is the first conscious sin made by the human race.

[Malaikah]

^What on earth is that meant to mean? :?

[Whatsthepoint]

^What on earth is that meant to mean? :?

According to my friend, Adam and Eve are an alegory or a representation of the first humans to have free will, and the whole forbidden fruit thing is a representation of humanity using the free will to ppose god or in other words sin.
He didn't explain how and why their sin is transeferred to every newborn.

[mattityahu]

Not a big fan of Original Sin. Not convinced it's biblical or necessary.

Yours,
M

[Malaikah]

^Fair enough.

He didn't explain how and why their sin is transeferred to every newborn.

But if the sin never happened, what is there to transfer?

[Pygoscelis]

Pygoscelis - just FYI, none of the points you mentioned apply to the Islamic version of the story.

Now that is interesting. Thank you for telling me that. I learned something here today! :D

[Malaikah]

I'm surprised you didn't know that! I mean, surely you knew there is no original sin in Islam? The mistake was Adam and Eve's, it didn't transfer to their kids. Also, the fruit was just a fruit - nothing special about it, and there was no serpent either.

[mattityahu]

Though, as a result, they got thrown to Earth to be tested, so now we're tested because of what they did. So in a way Islam says that we inherit the consequences of what they did.

Yours,
M

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I live in the UK, and most of the priests I've spoken about this with here don't take the story of Adam and Eve literally.

Peace

[Malaikah]

^That's freaky. So then do these priests disregard original sin too?

Though, as a result, they got thrown to Earth to be tested, so now we're tested because of what they did. So in a way Islam says that we inherit the consequences of what they did.

Firstly, it was always the plan that Adam and Eve and their progeny would end up on Earth, which we know because God told the angels before He created Adam that He was creating a creature that was going to live on Earth.

We are being tested on Earth because that was God's intention all along. It just so happens that eating the fruit and being expelled from Paradise was triggering event that lead to humans ending up on Earth.

Secondly, it is a reality of life that the actions of one person will have consequences for others. We see that every day. That doesn't correlate with inheriting sin or blame or anything like that.

[mattityahu]

^That's freaky. So then do these priests disregard original sin too?



Firstly, it was always the plan that Adam and Eve and their progeny would end up on Earth, which we know because God told the angels before He created Adam that He was creating a creature that was going to live on Earth.

We are being tested on Earth because that was God's intention all along. It just so happens that eating the fruit and being expelled from Paradise was triggering event that lead to humans ending up on Earth.

Secondly, it is a reality of life that the actions of one person will have consequences for others. We see that every day. That doesn't correlate with inheriting sin or blame or anything like that.

Thanks for this. I absolutely agree with your last statement.

Yours,
M

[GreyKode]

Though, as a result, they got thrown to Earth to be tested, so now we're tested because of what they did. So in a way Islam says that we inherit the consequences of what they did.

Yours,
M

That's not right, GOD's plan was originally there to test people on this earth.

[mattityahu]

That's not right, GOD's plan was originally there to test people on this earth.

Sorry GreyKode & Malaikah for misrepresenting your view - it was wrong of me to apply my understanding of the chain of events in the Christian story to yours.

Peace,
M

[czgibson]

Greetings,

^That's freaky. So then do these priests disregard original sin too?

There are lots of different views on original sin within the Christian church. See here.

I don't see why not believing in Adam and Eve would automatically negate the possibility of believing in original sin. Many Christians regard the story as an allegorical explanation of humanity's "fallen" or "sinful" state.

In the UK it's rather unusual to find Christians (other than children) who actually take it literally.

Peace

[Follower]

"He didn't explain how and why their sin is transeferred to every newborn."

The potential is there for every human is to sin.

Newborns are very self centered- it is ok though because they are cute and they really can't fend for themselves. All they want is to be fed right now, changed right now, held right now.

We have to teach children to share, but that is ok they are still cute at that stage.

As teenagers with the world revolving around them it no longer seems so cute, but it is still that same self centeredness. No longer so cute we can recognize that some of their wants and desires are sins.

['Abd-al Latif]

^

That doesn't explain anything.

All human beings - as an infant - want whatever makes life easier. But when they reach the age of puberty their body developes sexual desires and emotional needs. It is at this age when he or she begin to understand what patience really is because of their constant desire to have these needs fulfilled. Having these feelings or needs isn't wrong but they must be channeled the right way. To call it a sin just by it's mere presense in the human body is a misunderstanding about the human psychology. Whether you are unmarried or divorced these desires are going to be present and they only become a sin if you vent these desires outside of marriage.

What I fail to understand is how a new born infant has inherited a sin. This would mean that a new born infant unable to live if left alone for too long will go to hell if it dies at that age? This makes no sense and goes beyond logic.

How can god hold someone who he has just entered into this world as a criminal? No court of law would ever accept an infant as a criminal and a sinner, so how can Almighty God - who created mankind - ever be accused of such a short coming?

[mkh4JC]

^

What I fail to understand is how a new born infant has inherited a sin. This would mean that a new born infant unable to live if left alone for too long will go to hell if it dies at that age? This makes no sense and goes beyond logic.

Well, God doesn't send infants to hell if they die. They go to heaven. The same would be true for small children. Why? Because they never had a chance to accept Christ as their savior, and they have yet to reach the point of accountability.

But young children still commit sins though. Consider how you don't have to teach a child how to tell a lie, or to steal, or to disobey their parents. In reality, this world is fallen, and we are all born under the curse of sin. We as human beings need to born again (to receive newnewss of life), born from above, born of the incorruptible spirit of God.

['Abd-al Latif]

Then that doesn't agree with the concept of original sin at all. Original sin is being born with a sin.

Young children don't necessarily commit sins rather the more correct term is that they make mistakes. A sin is when you know something is wrong and you knowingly do it, and this is not entirely the case for young children because they are in need of guidence. If you are ignorant of something or you do it out of compusion, such as a parent threatening to hit a child and the child lies out of fear or a child being too young to understand fully the concept of right or wrong and not being able to make a judgement between it is not necessarily sinning.

If this is the case then where is the compassion and mercy of God to overlook those who are too young and have not understood? This is hardship on mankind and Allah does not intend any hardship.

[Whatsthepoint]

^Fair enough.



But if the sin never happened, what is there to transfer?

It did, just not in the form of Adam and eve taking a fruit from the forbidden tree.

[mkh4JC]

Then that doesn't agree with the concept of original sin at all. Original sin is being born with a sin.

Original sin is not being born with a sin rather it had the effect of being born capable of sinning.

Young children don't necessarily commit sins rather the more correct term is that they make mistakes.

Well, this is just not true. For toddlers sure, they just make mistakes, sinning unkowingly. But for someone who is say thirteen years of age, they know the difference between right and wrong, and yet they still commit sin. Why? Because without Christ we as human beings cannot help ourselves. If you are in your sins you are going to sin.

If this is the case then where is the compassion and mercy of God to overlook those who are too young and have not understood? This is hardship on mankind and Allah does not intend any hardship.

And as I said, children are safe as they have yet to have opportunity to accept Christ as their savior. It still doesn't change the fact that they are capable of sinning and do sin, as Adam brought both sin and death into the world.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Then what do you say of Christians, those who are preachers, priests etc that believe they have the "possibility" of going to hell and that it is just up to God....limbo i believe? There's no ifs and or buts like this in Islam. Newborns are completely innocent and they go straight to heaven dying in that stage..

Also u said that once u accept Jesus as your savior, you are responsible. That means you concur with the belief that if u accept Jesus as ur god and savior, then u get a free ticket to heaven? What do u say about this widely accepted belief? Or is your understanding your own?

[mkh4JC]

Then what do you say of Christians, those who are preachers, priests etc that believe they have the "possibility" of going to hell and that it is just up to God....limbo i believe?

Well, first of all, this is very Catholic in nature (ie limbo) and I--as a born again Christian--do not put much stock in Catholicism.

There's no ifs and or buts like this in Islam. Newborns are completely innocent and they go straight to heaven dying in that stage..

Yes, and this is the case with Christianity. God is not going to send a newborn that dies to spend eternity in hell. God--in the Christian sense--is love. And that is not loving.

Also u said that once u accept Jesus as your savior, you are responsible. That means you concur with the belief that if u accept Jesus as ur god and savior, then u get a free ticket to heaven? What do u say about this widely accepted belief? Or is your understanding your own?

If you accept Jesus as your savior you are saved from sin, death, and hell. It doesn't mean that you can do whatever you please afterwards because the Bible teaches that those Christians who do sin will fall under the discipline of an almighty God. And I should know, having been suffering for things that I did way back since the Summer of 2002.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Then I think you should go convince your fellow Christians with this view because they seem to think it's the case...a lot of times that's all I see and hear.

And I should know, having been suffering for things that I did way back since the Summer of 2002.

All the best to you :)

['Abd-al Latif]

Fedos, my understanding of the original sin is that Adam and Eve ate from the tree and sinned. They were expelled from heaven and from then on the sin was passed onto everyone until jesus came and died for the sins of mankind.

The point I was trying to make is; If a person is taken to Court of Law for a crime that he commits, and then the judge calls for a second person to come forward who had nothing to do with the crime and then he rules him as guilty, and yet a third person comes in the scene and he gets taken to jail for a crime that he didn't commit in the first place.

Does this make sense to you? Then how can the concept of original make sense?

[mkh4JC]

The Bible says that we have not sinned after the similtude of Adam's trangression. We as human beings won't be guilty or judged based on something that Adam did. You would be judged based on the sins that you yourself committed. And the only way to be free from sin is to accept Christ as your savior.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

See this is the problem, so many others will disagree with you on it. And its rare to come across someone with your view.

[mkh4JC]

Well, I don't see where disagreement can arise to be honest. Sure, you have people in Emerging Christian movements and others who don't believe that you can understand the Bible (in fact some say that you are arrogant if you believe you understand the Bible). I say, just let the text speak for itself.

Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good of evil, thus disobeying God, their eyes were opened and they understood the difference between good and evil, and all since have been born under the curse of sin as a result.

And there are many with this view, I'm for certain not the only one. Again, this is the orthodox Christian belief, this is what the disciples and all the great forefathers of the faith believed.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

To be honest, I haven't come across people with your view. Doesn't mean they dont exist. Just me personally I havent.

['Abd-al Latif]

In all honesty Fedos your the first christian who I've heard say this.

[mkh4JC]

Well, on Christian television (Daystar or TBN) you will hear people with my view. People like John Hagee believe this for example. And ministers or preachers over the television when they are calling people to Christ often explain for the benefit of those who don't know why our world is the way it is (ie because of Adam's disobedience).

[Zafran]

Well, on Christian television (Daystar or TBN) you will hear people with my view. People like John Hagee believe this for example. And ministers or preachers over the television when they are calling people to Christ often explain for the benefit of those who don't know why our world is the way it is (ie because of Adam's disobedience).

John Hagee...............is that the extremist who believes Muslims are devils and that the Mahdi is the anti christ???

[mkh4JC]

John Hagee...............is that the extremist who believes Muslims are devils???

I don't think he's ever said that Muslims are devils. I know he doesn't believe Islam to be the truth though.

[Zafran]

I don't think he's ever said that Muslims are devils. I know he doesn't believe Islam to be the truth though.

He was on a programme and was agreeing with the host that "the mahdi is the anti christ". I've also seen him on Youtube about what he thinks of Muslims. He said that the Quran "allows" Muslims to kill Jews and christains

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FnDHZpq8Zs

Watch the above from 4 mins in the video you'll hear the extremist there. - democracy now.

[malayloveislam]

Hahaha, if I am a devil, why I have to recite "I seek refuge with G-d from the malefactor satan who is accursed" whenever I start the recitation of G-d's Holy name? What kind of ignorance is that? Many people claiming Muslims are extremist but we still reading others' scriptures to understand others.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Agreed brother malay...oh the ignorance of some.

[Follower]

Matthew 18
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Matthew 19
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Luke 18
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

All of man is sinful by nature - no one teaches us how to be self centered, but we all must be taught to share.

Romans 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

But this does not mean that my fathers sin is my sin.

Ezekiel 18
20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.