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GuestFellow
06-07-2009, 11:13 PM
Assalam Alaikum.

Recently at college an atheist girl who is friend, believes Islam oppresses women.

I managed to answer the majority of the questions imposed by her about, the veil, witnesses, marriage and employment. I managed to clear some misconceptions that she held about Islam but there were two particular verses, which I don't know much about. :/

She believes that these verses portray women in a negative light and are not considered equal to men. Can anyone please provide explanation for these verses? If so, I would be grateful.

Here are the two verses:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
She thinks Islam is promoting women have less mental capabilities than men do.

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 541:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri

On 'Id ul Fitr or 'Id ul Adha Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, "O people! Give alms." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He replied, "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray."
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'Abd-al Latif
06-07-2009, 11:19 PM
Belittling Women with the Hadeeth: “Women are Deficient in Intellect and Deen.


Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz



We often hear the noble Hadeeth "Women are deficient in their intelligence and in their Deen” and some men use this Hadeeth as a form of belittlement towards the women. We desire from you O noble shaykh, clarification of the meaning of this Hadeeth?

The meaning of the Hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam):

“I have never seen anyone with a deficiency of ‘Aql (intellect) and Deen (religion) who are more overpowering to men than one of you [women].”

So it was said:

“O Messenger of Allaah, what is the deficiency in her intelligence?”

He said:

“Isn’t the witness of two women equal to that of one man?”

So it was said:

“What is the deficiency in her Deen?”

So he said:

“Isn’t it the case that if she is menstruating she doesn’t pray or fast?”

So the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified that the deficiency of her intellect was from the angle of her weak memory and that her testimony is strengthened with the testimony of another woman. This is because of the preciseness of the witness (in Islaam) and because she could forget and make an addition or deletion to the testimony. Just as Allaah says:

{And bring forth two witnesses from your own men. If there are not two men (available) then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs then the other can remind her…} [2282]

As for deficiency in her Deen, then it is because during her state of menstruation and post-partum bleeding, she abandons the Salaat and fasting, and she doesn’t make up the salaat. This is from the deficiency in her Deen. But this deficiency is not blameworthy upon her. Rather it is a deficiency, which happens as a result of that which Allaah had decreed for her and this was done in a manner of leniency and easiness towards her. For if she were to fast in a state of menstruation or in a state of postpartum bleeding it would harm her. So from the Mercy of Allaah (towards women) He has legislated for her to abandon the fast at the time when she is menstruating or in a state of Nifaas, and to make up the fast afterwards. As for the salaat, then without a doubt, the state of menstruation prevents her from purification. So from the mercy of Allaah, He legislated for her to abandon her prayer and likewise in the state of Nifaas.

He also legislated for her not to make it up, because in making up the (Salaat) is difficulty, because the Salaat is tremendous, and repetitious, five times throughout the night and day, and the days of menstruation can be plentiful, sometimes seven or eight days or more than that. And the Nifaas could reach 40 days. So from the mercy of Allaah upon her and from His Ihsaan (doing good) towards her is that He removed the Salaat from her whether it be the initial Salaat or the make-up. And this does not necessitate that her intelligence is deficient in everything! Nor that her Deen is deficient in everything! But indeed the Messenger (saw) clarified that the deficiency in her intelligence is from that which happens to her from the lack of precision in her memory and testimony, and that the deficiency in her Deen is from the fact that she leaves off the prayer and fasting at the time of her menses or in the state of Nifaas. Also this doesn’t necessitate that she is less than a man in everything! or the fact that the man is better in everything! Yes, generally the male gender is better than the gender of the females generally for many reasons. Just as Allaah the High and Sublime says:

{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend their wealth (to support them)…} [434]

But she can surpass him, sometimes, in many things. And by Allaah how many women surpass many men in their intelligence, Deen and precision! But verily that which is narrated on the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is that the women are surpassed by men, generally, in intelligence and in the religion only. There can proceed from her many righteous actions, in which, she can surpass the men and in her Taqwah of Allaah, Azza Wa Jall, and in her station in the hereafter. There could be some affairs that she places great importance on and is precise in them more so than the precision of a man. There are many issues, which she carefully considers, and is diligent in memorizing and precise in. She would become the foundation in Islaamic history and point of reference in many affairs and this is clear to those who ponder and reflect on the state of the women during the time of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and after that. With this it should be understood that this deficiency should not prevent her from being treated equally in her narrations and in her testimony, if it is strengthened with the testimony of another woman.

And it doesn’t necessarily mean that it (this deficiency) should prevent her from having Taqwah of Allaah and the fact that she could be from the most virtuous slaves of Allaah if she is upright in her Deen, even if the fasting and Salaat is not obligatory upon her at the time of menstruation and Nifaas rather this is a deficiency which is specific to the intellect and Deen just as the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified. It is not appropriate that a believer should accuse her of being deficient in everything and weak in every area of her Deen, and its clarification is pertinent and important so that the speech of the Messenger is understood in it’s proper context and in the best possible manner.



And Allaah knows best.
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aadil77
06-07-2009, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow

She believes that these verses portray women in a negative light and are not considered equal to men. Can anyone please provide explanation for these verses? If so, I would be grateful.
People really need to get this out of their heads, men and women are not equal. Tell her islam doesn't treat women equally simply because they're not equal, But islam treats everyone with Justice and thats the key word, women are treated with justice
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GuestFellow
06-07-2009, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
People really need to get this out of their heads, men and women are not equal. Tell her islam doesn't treat women equally simply because they're not equal, But islam treats everyone with Justice and thats the key word, women are treated with justice
Sure, I shall take that into a consideration.

@ 'Abd-al Latif

Thank you for the explanation.
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جوري
06-08-2009, 01:36 AM


Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.

They mean something but often a person reads one narration and then tries to come to conclusion by themselves. You need to look at ALL the narrations, the arabic text, the asbab laghwal hadith [circumstances behind the prophetic statement] and the commentary. This is why a layman cannot just go to the hadith and try to figure things out themselves, they need to consult the scholars who have done the research.

Quote:
"Allah's Apostle once said to a group of women : 'I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion.'"[14]
The problem is the full arabic meaning is not conveyed:
In this narrative of the Prophet (pbuh), according to a normal principle of the classical Arabic language, some words have been suppressed. The words "Naqisa'tul-`aql wal-deen" translated as: "deficient in intellect and religion" have the noun "umu'r" suppressed. The complete phrase is: "Naqisa'tu umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" or "Naqisa't fi' umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" i.e. "deficient in responsibility in matters pertaining to intellect and religion. [...] The Prophet (pbuh) has not interpreted it as a 'deficiency in faith', on the contrary, it has been termed as a deficiency in the responsibility imposed on women in matters relating to religion. The two, as you can see, are not synonymous.
Also, the context has not been coveyed either. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was encouraging the women to donate money in the cause of Islam after the Eid prayers. So he challenged them to do extra good deeds by reminding them of their responsibility.

Shaykh Salmân Al-'Awdah notes:
When Islam discusses the deficiencies of women, it is neither insulting them nor belittling them. Some men, unfortunately, do precisely that when they quote the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that women "have a deficiency in their intellect and their religion". They take these words out of context as a means of oppressing women and putting them down.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) meant something quite different. He said: "I have never seen among those who have a deficiency in their intellect and their religion anyone more capable than women of swaying the intellect of the most determined of men." He is actually asserting here the power of women to influence men and sway their opinion. This is one of the distinctions that women, in their natures, have.

He then went on to define precisely what he meant by these deficiencies. In the remainder of the hadîth, some women asked him: "O Messenger of Allah, what is this deficiency in our intelligence and religion?" He replied: "Isn't it that a woman's testimony as a witness is half of the testimony of man?" They said: "Yes." He said: "This, then, is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that when she is in her menses, she leaves off prayers and fasting?" They said: "Yes." He said: "This is the deficiency in her religion."

These are matters of Islamic Law. A woman is neither sinful nor blameworthy because of the prayers and fasts that she misses. She, in fact, receives blessings by obeying Allah and abstaining from those acts while she is menstruating. Her testimony as a witness is half that of men only in matters wherein she is generally less versed than men. In other matters wherein women have particular knowledge, like fosterage and virginity, the testimony of a woman is accepted but not that of a man.
Shaykh Bin Bâz writes:
As for the shortcoming in religion, this stems from the fact that when menstruating or having post- partum bleeding, women neither pray nor fast, and they do not have to make up for their prayers.

As we know, women have no hand in the obstacles that disrupt their religious performances. This is something divine, which reflects Almighty Allah’s overflowing mercy on them, for it will be extremely hard for a woman to be tasked with religious obligation while she is having menstruation or post-partum bleeding. That’s why she is exempted from fasting or praying, as a sign of mercy on her. Also, they do not make up their prayers. This is because if they were ordered to make up their prayers, it would be extremely hard for them, given that prayers are performed five times a day. Menses may last for a number of days, up to seven or eight or more. Post-partum bleeding lasts for forty days. It’d be definitely hard for women to be obliged to make up the prayers missed while responding to the demands of nature.

So, in the light of the above-mentioned facts, the Hadith does not have any indication of looking down upon women or considering them as inferior, especially when we know that some women excel men in many matters. Yes, no one can deny the fact that a woman may perform many good deeds and exceed many men in virtue, morality, etc. Islamic history abounds with examples of great women who have made great contribution to the progress of mankind. This is very clear to anyone who is well informed about the status of women during the time of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and the early generations.
In addition, the Hadith in question does not disqualify women from being narrators of Hadiths, and there is nothing that prevents a woman from being one of Allah’s pious servants, if she is steadfast in her religion even with her being excused from fasting or praying during menstruation or post-partum bleeding”
Quote:
A "Muslim Scholar", Dr. Buti, states the (supposed) reason behind the wearing of Hijab:
Islam is based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. Personal opinions of different people are disregarded if they conflict with established evidences in the religion. The Qur'an clearly establishes that the hijab is for the benefit of the women, and then the rest of society:

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to cover themselves with their outer garments. That is better so that they will be recognized [as free respectable women] AND NOT HARASSED. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

The same thing is true for Razi. His personal thoughts are not evidence in the religion. It is not my concern to defend what Razi said or didn't say, even though it seems the quote attributed to him is distorted since he has also mentioned that women are NOT inferior to men.

Quote:
I think that they greatly distort most of the verses in the Qur'an, but what about the Hadith?
They picked one hadith out of context, distorted it and didn't show any of the other hadith on women in Islam:

The Prophet said: 'Anyone who cares for three daughter, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them well, they will enter paradise. The companions asked, "What about two daughters?" He said, "Even two daughters". They asked what about one daughter? He said "even one". (Sunan Abi Dawûd, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadarak Al-Hâkim)
A man came to Prophet Muhammad asking “ O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company?” The Prophet said “Your mother”. The man said “then who else?” The Prophet said “Your mother”. The man asked, “then who else?” The Prophet replied “Your mother” When the man asked for the fourth time, only then did the Prophet say, “Your father” ( Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'Paradise lies at the feet of your mother' (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan An-Nasâ’i, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him), said: 'A poor woman came to me carrying her two daughters. I gave her three dates to eat. She gave each child a date, and raised the third to her own mouth to eat it. Her daughters asked her to give it to them, so she split the date that she had wanted to eat between them. I was impressed by what she had done, and told the Messenger of Allah P about it. He said, “Allah has decreed Paradise for her because of it”.' (Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'Whoever has a daughter born to him, and he did not prefer his son over him, Allah will admit him to Paradise because of her.' (Mustadarak Al-Hâkim)
The Prophet said: 'There is no one who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he treats them well, but Allah will admit him/her to Paradise.' (Al-Adab Al-Mufrad of Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'There is no one among my ummah who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he supports them until they are grown up, but he will be with me in Paradise like this – and he held up his index and middle fingers together. (Mu'jam At-Tabarânî)
The Prophet said: 'The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. I am the best of you to his wife and I'm the best to my wife.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ad-Dârimî, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'The believer should not harbor hatred towards his wife. If he dislikes something in her, then surely he will be pleased with another quality in her.' (Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night: 'Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "he kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets.' (Sahîh Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abû Dawûd)
The Prophet said: "Iblîs (Satan) sets up his throne on water, then he sends out his armies of devils (to incite humans to do evil). The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation. One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' Iblîs says, 'You have not done enough.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then Iblîs comes close to this devil and says, 'How excellent you are!' " (Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: 'A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so marry one who is religious, may you be blessed.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11).' (Al-Kabâ'ir of Adh-Dhahabî)
The Prophet said: 'Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I have actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
The Prophet said: 'The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives.' (Musnad Ahmad)
The Prophet said: 'The life of this world is bountiful, and the best of the bounties of this world is the righteous woman.' (Sahîh Muslim)

The Prophet said: 'Assuredly, women are the twin halves of men.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Musnad Ahmad)
:w:



cant find original thread but have it on file..
:w:
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Clover
06-08-2009, 05:30 AM
I can see the idea that Men and Women are better in certain areas, generally. I do not believe women are overwhelmingly (100% of all women) are better at house work, cause I bet their are some good Men who are good at it, but I think the majority (let's say 75%?) are better at house work, is that what Islam is trying to say?
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جوري
06-08-2009, 05:33 AM
no, I don't see housework as part of this queries at all.. Men should be as adept at housework as women, so pick up a broom every now and then and not just to ride on it :D
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Clover
06-08-2009, 05:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
no, I don't see housework as part of this queries at all.. Men should be as adept at housework as women, so pick up a broom every now and then and not just to ride on it :D

grrr..I am not a witch...although I did get close to dating one (she was Wiccan).

Well, I have never heard of the house-husband, although I have heard stories that are remarkably close. I have to tell you something, this isn't meant offensible (just in case you cna somehow find it offensible) Islam sounds like it's stance on Women much like the stance was in the 1950's, maybe you should read the Guide to be a good housewife, that gives off a fantastic detail of how women were treated and how they were in the 50's...generally.
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جوري
06-08-2009, 05:48 AM
it would be offensive if Islam's stance on women were as you describe, it is not.. women who stay at home do so out of personal preference.. there is no injunction on what role they must assume.. Women during the time of the prophet voted and went to war worked as doctors, had their own business and it is indeed an injunction on every Muslim to seek knowledge.. do read this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ompanions.html


what a Muslim woman decides to do with her life is generally a decision reached between her and her husband.. people's lives aren't a reflection of what the religion allows or disallows..

all the best

peace
Reply

Clover
06-08-2009, 05:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
it would be offensive if Islam's stance on women were as you describe, it is not.. women who stay at home do so out of personal preference.. there is no injunction on what role they must assume.. Women during the time of the prophet voted and went to war worked as doctors, had their own business and it is indeed an injunction on every Muslim to seek knowledge.. do read this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ompanions.html


what a Muslim woman decides to do with her life is generally a decision reached between her and her husband.. people's lives aren't a reflection of what the religion allows or disallows..

all the best

peace
No, but if people don't think about what a religion allows and doesn't, then they are zombies to it.

Sorry, didn't know all that, thanks for info, and link, btw, wana be friends? (contact list)
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جوري
06-08-2009, 06:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
No, but if people don't think about what a religion allows and doesn't, then they are zombies to it.

Sorry, didn't know all that, thanks for info, and link, btw, wana be friends? (contact list)
greetings..

indeed, one should question their faith and reestablish it after conviction, very much in the same manner as you have chosen Taoism over Christianity out of an informed decision of what best suits your life..

I am afraid, I don't have any contact lists ( I am in all likelihood the least computer savvy person you'll encounter) , but I can always be your sister in humanity on board..

peace
Reply

Clover
06-08-2009, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
greetings..

indeed, one should question their faith and reestablish it after conviction, very much in the same manner as you have chosen Taoism over Christianity out of an informed decision of what best suits your life..

I am afraid, I don't have any contact lists ( I am in all likelihood the least computer savvy person you'll encounter) , but I can always be your sister in humanity on board..

peace
Was the first paragraph sarcasm? I can't tell cause when a person does the dots after it, that usually means sarcasm, but I don't know :confused:

I meant on the forum? I have been inviting some of the people I prefer to talk with in posts.
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جوري
06-08-2009, 06:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
Was the first paragraph sarcasm? I can't tell cause when a person does the dots after it, that usually means sarcasm, but I don't know :confused:

I meant on the forum? I have been inviting some of the people I prefer to talk with in posts.
no using an ellipsis is usually done for dramatic effect, although when I personally do it, it is to occupy the space to my upcoming thought.. in other words-- rather than pausing between thoughts, I three or four or five or six dot until the next word forms-- sometimes I also use dashes, it isn't grammatically nor syntactically correct, in fact it is down right ill-formed but it is one of many idiosyncrasies I possess. I am comfortable enough with myself not to care whether I'll be hauled away by the grammar police :D:D

all the best
Reply

Clover
06-08-2009, 07:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
no using an ellipsis is usually done for dramatic effect, although when I personally do it, it is to occupy the space to my upcoming thought.. in other words-- rather than pausing between thoughts, I three or four or five or six dot until the next word forms-- sometimes I also use dashes, it isn't grammatically nor syntactically correct, in fact it is down right ill-formed but it is one of many idiosyncrasies I possess. I am comfortable enough with myself not to care whether I'll be hauled away by the grammar police :D:D

all the best
ah, k. I have never seen it done like that but umk. I thought I was gonna have to scrap ya :raging:

I usually just skip a space and begin a new paragraph.
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Ali_008
06-08-2009, 01:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
:w:
:sl:
Jazakallah Khair for this excellent post
:w:
Reply

Intisar
06-08-2009, 01:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
People really need to get this out of their heads, men and women are not equal. Tell her islam doesn't treat women equally simply because they're not equal, But islam treats everyone with Justice and thats the key word, women are treated with justice
:sl: They're not equal? I always thought men are women were equal, they just had different roles.
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Lejla
06-08-2009, 04:25 PM
Assalam Alaikum :)

@ Guestfellow

My advice to you is to introduce your friend with the fact that Islam liberated women from oppression they faced before Islam. As you probably already know, in the pre-Islamic period female children were buried alive simply because they were not treated equal as male children. But with the arrival of Islam, this changed, as well as many other things that liberated women.

The following text is a comparison between position of women in Christianity and Islam. Hope you'll find it useful :)

The Status Of Women In Islam

This topic is one of the misconceptions about Islam. The West believes that women in Islam are oppressed and need to be liberated. This is not true at all. In fact, it is Islam which has liberated the western women who used and still are being oppressed. It is the West who 'stole' our views on women and now thinks that they are better off in their treatment of women. Let us look at how women used to be treated and how Islam treats them under the Spriritual and Social facets.

Spritually

In Christianity, It is believed that Eve gave Adam the fruit from the forbidden trees and they thus became naked after consuming it. When God asked about it, Adam blamed Eve for it and thus God said that he will make women deliver in great pains, He will make the women only desire their husbands and the husband shall rule the woman. (Genesis 3:6-17)

This is in contrary to the Islamic belief that they were both wrong and they both repented and Allah accepted the repentance of both. (Qur'an 7:19-23)

Socially

As a Child


It is also a belief in Christianity that if a woman conceives a boy, she will be unclean for one week. but if she conceives a girl, she will be unclean for two weeks.

"...if a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days... but if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..."
(Leveticus 12:2-5)

Does this imply that the girls born are more unclean than boys? This is what Islam says about conceiving boys and girls

"To Allah belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. He creates whatever He wills, granting daughters to whomever He wills, and granting sons to whomever He wills. (42:49)

During the pre-Islamic period, the Arabs used to hate their baby girls. When their wives gave birth to baby girls, they would be buried alive. Islam abolished this primitive and brutal practise by promising paradise.

The prophet (s.a.w) said: "Whosoever support two daughters till they mature, he and I will come in the Day of Judgment as this (and he pointed with his two fingers held fast)"
.
On inheritance, in Islam a woman gets half the share a man gets. This does not mean that the woman is half of a man. It is simply because a man has a greater responsibility in maintaining and providing upkeep for his family and also the man has to pay dowry (if he is not married). The woman has no such responsibility of up keeping her family as its her husband's responsibility and also if she is not married she will receive dowry thus the wisdom behind the man getting twice the woman's share.

In Christianity, the woman can only inherit when the father has left no son.

"Say to the Israelites, 'If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter..." (Numbers 27:8)

As a wife


It is interesting to note that in Christianity, a woman could be betrothed. Betrothing is paying an amount of money so that a man could possess the woman. In Islam, the dowry given to the bride is not a price for her nor does it symbolize her worth. The husband simply gives his wife the dowry so that they could cultivate love.

For the prophet (s.a.w) said "Give (each other) presents and you will love (each other).

In Christianity, the bride's consent for the marriage is unnecessary and has no need. In Islam, both the bride's and the bridegroom's consent is a must. When either of the consents is missing, the marriage is not valid.

Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (s.a.w), and she reported that he father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of Allah gave her the choice (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it) (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469).

In Islam, the woman has a right over her husband just like her husband has over her. If Islam oppresses women, would it set for them (women) rights over their husbands? (to read more on the rights of a husband and wife Click here).

"...And they (women) have rights (over their husbands) similar (to those of their husbands) over them to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise." (Qur'an 2:228)
In Christianity, just as the woman has no right of consent, she also has no right of divorce. In the Mosaic Law, only the men had the rights to divorce a woman. No woman could divorce her husband. But in Islam, a woman can divorce her husband if she does not want to live with the man anymore. In Christianity not only is the woman forbidden to divorce but she also is not supposed to be married after the divorce.


"...who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." (mathew 5:32)

In Islam, on top of the woman being able to divorce the man, she could also be married afterwards.


"And those of you who die and leave wives behind them, they (the wives) shall wait (as regards their marriage) for four months and ten days, then when they have fulfilled their term, there is no sin on you if they (the wives) dispose of themselves in a just and honourable manner (i.e. they can marry). And Allâh is Well-Acquainted with what you do." (Qur'an 2:234)
This period of waiting does not oppress the woman in any way. It simply gives time so that if the woman is pregnant it is known.

As a mother


In Islam, a good mother is the most precious thing. This is as the mother is the one who raises up the children. And the children are the future of a nation. If its a good mother, the children will be raised up nicely and thus the nation advances but if the mother is bad, she raises the children badly and thus the nation is drawn back.

A man came to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) asking: "O Messenger of Allah, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company? The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, your mother. The man said then who else: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, Your mother. The man said then who else? The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Your mother. The man asked, then who else? Only then did the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say, Your father" (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

The above mentioned Hadeeth is a good example of how Islam respects and honours mothers.

The West sees the covering of women in Islam as being oppressive. To them an uncovered woman is liberated. They use the beauty of the uncovered woman as a tool to advertise and sell their wares. On the other hand, Islam commands women to be covered up so that they are not used to fulfill the men's sexual desire and be used as tools for advertisements. Thus, is it the West or is it Islam that is degrading women?

http://www.uonbi.ac.ke/msaun/islam/s...maninislam.htm
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-08-2009, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ameena*
:sl: They're not equal? I always thought men are women were equal, they just had different roles.
They are in the eyes of Allah when it comes to deen but not equal when it comes to roles i.e. a woman can give birth but men can't. Think of it as an equation...both sides are to be equal.
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جوري
06-08-2009, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ali_008
:sl:
Jazakallah Khair for this excellent post
:w:
:w:

Jazaka Allah khyran, but I can hardly take credit for it, as it was written by Bro. Ansar Al'Adl, it clarified many things for me and so I kept it in my files on the account the thread was closed...

:w:
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'Abd-al Latif
06-08-2009, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ameena*
:sl: They're not equal? I always thought men are women were equal, they just had different roles.
Men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah but we are not the same.

Because of this we are not given equal roles, we are given even roles because each gender is created with qualities that excel in certain areas and is deficient in others. There is no favouritism because the reward for men and women on the day of judgement is not dependent on gender, rather their reward is in their obdience to Allah.

However in this world there are obvious and noticible differences which do not make men and women equal. The most obvious and commonly quoted difference is that men do not and cannot conceive, nor does an infant cry for fathers milk. Similarly men are better suited to heavy labour and other things which may be a burden for women. Each gender is created for it's specific role which inherently make us different but unlike the western preception of this view which is seen oppressive towards women, it's not. Islam is just and it gives each gender roles which best suits their abilities without favouring one over the other.
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czgibson
06-08-2009, 10:43 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Islam is just and it gives each gender roles which best suits their abilities without favouring one over the other.
Here's a quote from Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz, whose article you posted earlier:

Yes, generally the male gender is better than the gender of the females generally for many reasons.
It looks to me like there's a contradiction here, but I'm sure there's a way to rationalise it if you're a believer.

Peace
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جوري
06-08-2009, 11:06 PM
The inference of the sheikh for something he couldn't adequately parley to his readers doesn't denote a consensus amongst scholars or acceptance at face value or prevalence otherwise amidst the 'believers'..

It is mere error in communication on his part which you chose to put in the foregrounds of your comments!

shyookhs aren't Gods--minigods prophets or even saints-- they can do their best in accordance to their understanding...

all the best
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'Abd-al Latif
06-08-2009, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Here's a quote from Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz, whose article you posted earlier:

It looks to me like there's a contradiction here, but I'm sure there's a way to rationalise it if you're a believer.

Peace
That's his view and he may have his reasons for that but it is not out of boast or to belittle women.
Reply

Erundur
06-09-2009, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.


:w:
:sl:

ugh I can't view his page, can anyone help?

:sl:
Reply

جوري
06-09-2009, 02:56 AM
:sl:

I think all the user-pages were lost when the forum got updated, including loss of some old very valuable threads in my humble opinion...

:w:
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
06-09-2009, 06:58 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Assalam Alaikum.

Recently at college an atheist girl who is friend, believes Islam oppresses women.

I managed to answer the majority of the questions imposed by her about, the veil, witnesses, marriage and employment. I managed to clear some misconceptions that she held about Islam but there were two particular verses, which I don't know much about. :/

She believes that these verses portray women in a negative light and are not considered equal to men. Can anyone please provide explanation for these verses? If so, I would be grateful.

Here are the two verses:



She thinks Islam is promoting women have less mental capabilities than men do.
ways to look at it: if Islam truly oppression women, why is paradise on offer for her? i find it amazing how when people come to question Islam, they just focus on the "obedience to husband/wearing hijab's issues," etc whilst they have completely failed to "weigh up" such issues with the rest of islam---> these things are minor and people don't really take into mind that her prayer is the same as his, as is her fast, her giving in charity, her purification, her dhikr, the laws of punishment are the same for both genders, etc etc etc...

another way to look at it is that it makes no sense that Islam oppresses women, because Allah is the legislator of the Islamic law. now, if you oppress someone, same as if you would rob someones house, murder some one, etc you need to have a motive behind it. but what motive would allah have to oppress women? he is not in need His servants be it male or female, he is the one who owns everything and gives everything. everything is from him and goes back to him so what would his reason be for oppressing us? it simply makes no sense...

and if he wanted to oppress us, why didn't he just destroy us?

and about the hijab issue (i know you mentioned that you already covered it) but it's to protect her from the gaze of men. we can say yes, it has nothing to do with him what he looks like and that he should lower his gaze, but at the end of the day if i dont want people breaking into my house, im going to take the proper precautions and lock the doors at night, same if i didn't want people to look into my house, i dress the windows up with blinds/curtains...its got nothing to do with anybody what in my house, but if i dont take the precautions of protecting it, than chances are highter of it getting broken into, no?


and btw, i advice you not to mix with this girl. if you want her to seek knowledge about Islam, direct her to the masjid or something.
Reply

Joe98
06-09-2009, 11:10 AM
Muslims wonder why the West misunderstands Islam.

Here is a post from the World Affairs forum.


http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1163717


format_quote Originally Posted by HopeFul

I'm a pukhtun, like the Taliban, the "real" Taliban were.

Pukhtuns are generally very religious as their whole society is based on Islam, the men outside, the women inside in the homes

Muslims living in the Middle East tend to say: “the men outside, the women inside in the homes” Muslims living in the West tend to say: "Muslim women have more rights than Western women.”


So you can understand the problem.

-
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Clover
06-09-2009, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Muslims wonder why the West misunderstands Islam.

Here is a post from the World Affairs forum.


http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1163717





Muslims living in the Middle East tend to say: “the men outside, the women inside in the homes” Muslims living in the West tend to say: "Muslim women have more rights than Western women.”


So you can understand the problem.

-
I've heard that before, I forgot where which is not good, cause it's bad to say you seen something then not have a direct source, but I guess I can go on my honor. I think it's rather weird, cause people in America have the same rights, but some people have their rights taken away wrongfully and a lot of times illegally.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2009, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
Muslims wonder why the West misunderstands Islam.

Here is a post from the World Affairs forum.


http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1163717





Muslims living in the Middle East tend to say: “the men outside, the women inside in the homes” Muslims living in the West tend to say: "Muslim women have more rights than Western women.”


So you can understand the problem.

-
I believe that is more cultural issue. I do not know much about the Taliban but I believe some of their laws are based on their cultural values.

Therefore, I think people need to make a distinction between Islam and Islamic groups/countries. Islam is a religion and Islamic groups/countries are people who apply Shariah law into practice. Some Islamic countries/groups do not correctly apply the Shariah law while they are some who do apply it correctly.

I think people should judge the followers of Islam and how well they put Islamic laws into practice and not mix it up with Islamic principles coming directly from the Quran.
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ragdollcat1982
06-09-2009, 11:20 PM
I used to think that Islam oppressed women, mainly because of what I watched about the Taliban regime in Afganistan. What they did was their own tribal and cultural practices and not in accordance with othordox Islamic teaching. Islam is the only religion that gurantees women the right to property, support and education.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
I used to think that Islam oppressed women, mainly because of what I watched about the Taliban regime in Afganistan. What they did was their own tribal and cultural practices and not in accordance with othordox Islamic teaching. Islam is the only religion that gurantees women the right to property, support and education.
I don't think thats true. I am pretty sure Buddhism is ok with women owning property, and support, and education.
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ragdollcat1982
06-09-2009, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
I don't think thats true. I am pretty sure Buddhism is ok with women owning property, and support, and education.

Islam is the only religion that has in its sacred text the rights of women specified.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
Islam is the only religion that has in its sacred text the rights of women specified.
That is different then what you said, but thanks for that statement. I hope you have researched other religions to gurantee this though.
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ragdollcat1982
06-09-2009, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
That is different then what you said, but thanks for that statement. I hope you have researched other religions to gurantee this though.
It has never been the case in Judism and Christianity. No where in the Bible is a woman guarenteed the right to property, education or even support.
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Clover
06-09-2009, 11:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ragdollcat1982
It has never been the case in Judism and Christianity. No where in the Bible is a woman guarenteed the right to property, education or even support.
That is 3 religions out of maybe a hundred active ones? I am not sure, I am just hoping your not saying that for all religions without being correct and having researched the subject.
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GuestFellow
06-10-2009, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Clover
That is 3 religions out of maybe a hundred active ones? I am not sure, I am just hoping your not saying that for all religions without being correct and having researched the subject.
I think in Hindudism states something about property:

format_quote Originally Posted by Wikpedia
Arthashastra and Manusamhita are sources about the woman's right to property or ‘Stridhan’, (literally meaning, property of wife). It is of two types: maintenance (in money or land given by the husband), and anything else like ornaments given to her by her family, husband, in-laws and the friends of her husband. Manu further subdivides this into six types - the property given by parents at marriage, given by the parental family when she is going to her husband’s house, given by her husband out of affection (not maintenance which he is bound to give), and property given separately by brother, mother and father [Manu IX 194]. Pre-nuptial contracts are also mentioned where the groom would agree to give a set amount of brideprice to both parents and the bride. Such property belonged to the wife alone and was not to be touched by the groom or her parents except in emergencies (in sickness, in famine, threated by robbers, or for performing holy deeds). At the same time, the Manu Smriti contradicts itself by declaring that a wife has no property and the wealth earned is for the husband [Manu VIII.416].

Daughters and sons equally inherited their mother's property; but some scriptures insist that a mother's property belongs solely to the daughters [Manu IX 131], in order of preference: unmarried daughters, married but poor daughters, married and rich daughters. When a father died, unmarried daughters had to be given a share in their father’s property, equal to one-fourth from every brother's share [since it is assumed that the married daughter had been given her share at marriage] [Manu IX. 118]. If the family has no sons, the (appointed) daughter is the sole inheritor of the property [Manu IX 127].
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Clover
06-10-2009, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I think in Hindudism states something about property:
Very nice of you to look up that information.
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IAmZamzam
07-30-2009, 06:23 PM
You might want to show her this article of mine.
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Argamemnon
10-24-2009, 12:54 AM
Salam all,

I will read this thread when I have time inshallah, but I have a specific question. If, according to the hadith, women lack intelligence and are deficient in religion, why are they threatened with Hellfire. Why are most of the dwellers of Hellfire women, if women were created this way (lacking intelligence and deficient in religion)? After all, it's not their fault that they are deficient in religion and lack intelligence. Thanks in advance.
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Rasema
10-24-2009, 01:58 AM
:sl:
This might help some. Ny sis *Redeem*

"And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women" -2 :282


This verse has nothing to do with a biological or psychological deficiency in a woman. Let's look at the full verse.

O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write, as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must have Taqwa of Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable to dictate for himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So have Taqwa of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

As you can see, this verse refers to business dealings, something that is not in a woman's jurisdiction. While a man focuses his entire attention on business, and on handling the finances, the woman focuses hers on the household. It is not her duty to be aware of the finances of the household, it is the responsibility of the man. Therefore, she cannot be expected to keep up with business contracts for debts on top of her other responsibilities. BUT, if a situation were to arise that would require a woman's testimony, then one other woman should be present



"The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" - 4:11


Allow me to explain.

Let's say that a father passes away, and leaves his inheritance to his son, daughter, and wife. The son gets the biggest portion. The reason being that he was given more financial responsibilities than his sister and his mother. What he inherits does not belong to him alone, but to the entire family. His inheritance will be used to feed, clothe, and support his family, and any family that he starts. On the other hand, whatever a woman inherits is hers alone to do with as she pleases.

In the long run, a man ends up with an inheritance equal to, if not less, than a woman's.


"and the men are a degree above them [women]" -2 :228


This is taken completely out of context. Firstly, it is speaking of divorce, not all women in general. Secondly, the verse means "A degree of responsibility over them", not "a degree above women". This means that men have more responsibilities when it comes to their wives, than a woman does to her husband. Also, if you read the entire verse you would see that the verse does speak in light of women.


And divorced women shall wait (as regards their marriage) for three menstrual periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.)



"Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye" -24 :31


This one is also entirely out of context. The verse before it says:

Tell the believing men to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts. That is purer for them. Verily, Allah is All-Aware of what they do.


"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." -2 :223


This verse is speaking of sexual intercourse, not a general subject.

222. They ask you concerning menstruation. Say: "That is an Adha, therefore, keep away from women during menses and go not in unto them till they are purified.'' And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah has ordained for you. Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves.
223. Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth, when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allah to bestow upon you pious offspring) for your own selves beforehand. And fear Allah, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad ).

As for the "your wives are as a tilth unto you", I'm not sure that an explanation would be fit for this forum, since it involves the permissibility of certain sexual acts.

However, it refers to a certain position in which the Ansaar had superstitions about, and which was answered as being permissible.

Salam.

This post has been edited by Redeem: Dec 24 2007, 03:16 AM









However, this does not mean that woman and man are equal. Science proves that we are not.
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