/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Isthe bible is wrong?.....



DovVN
06-20-2009, 12:02 AM
First of all I dont mean any offense with my questions.They are legitimate concerns.

If the bible is wrong then how can you have any confidence that the Quran is correct?If the bible is wrong then God isnt capable of presenting a book that says what he wants it to.He has to worry that somewhere along the lines a sinful human will put something in there that is untrue.If he couldnt do it the first time then how can you think he could do it the second time with the Quran?From what I know,the Quran is based off the old testament.However,muslims say that there were errors in it so God had to rewrite another book?What happens when someone else comes along and says that the Quran is incorrect and writes a third book?That gives the Quran nothing to stand on.Just the fact that muslims claim that most of the old testament is true,makes me think that the Quran isnt true because of the above arguement.It doesnt make sense.


Another thing that makes no sense to me is that Muslims claim Jesus was a prophet but not who he claimed to be.If he was just a prophet,then what did he do?It seems to me that all he did was mislead millions of people into believeing in him and not much of anything else.That would make him the most evil prophet that ever lived.Why would God make a prophet who would do that?And by saying that Jesus was a prophet,the Quran acknowledges that the New Testament is somewhat true and that God was unable to control what was written in his own Word.

Also,I dont see what writing the Quran accomplished anyways.I havent read as much as I should have but it doesnt seem to present anything new.What it does is establishes a different religion.It seems plain to me that the God of the Old testament and the Quran are different.The God of the bible is about love.The God of Islam is about following rules and laws.The God of the bible never intended for us to live like that forever.Only till Jesus came and sacraficed himself to pay for our sins.Islam is still living under law and not love.

Heres a question.Pretend you live your life as a Muslim and your good deeds outweigh your bad.You go to heaven right?Now what was your motivation to do good?It was for the reward of heaven.Or maybe you feared going to hell.Those arent good reasons to do good.Those arent good reasons to follow God.If you arent doing good out of love for God then you are sinning in doing good because it is only for selfish gain.Allah says if you dont do this or that I will burn you in hell.Even if you never sinned,what would that benefit Allah?The link between doing good and Allahs approval doesnt make sense to me.With the bible it is different.Humans are incapable of doing good.Even in doing good they have selfish motivations.The bible says people cannot do any good apart from God.You dont earn your way into heaven by doing good.You go to heaven by accepting Jesus as your savior and then do good in return because you love him and want to obey.Doing good and following laws to get into heaven has it all backwards.Thats a dreary relationship.A relationship based on fear and punishment.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
جوري
06-20-2009, 12:31 AM
Here is where the confidence in the Quranic manuscript comes from..

this might be helpful.. it is very comprehensive:

The Qur'anic Manuscripts

There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.
The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.
The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are more than 40 Qur'anic manuscripts which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. More than 45 manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra.We will be showing only a few examples below.
A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.
A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.
Looking for something similar? Try
The Arabic Papyri | Arabic & Islamic Inscriptions | The Islamic Coins
1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography

On The Origins Of The Kufic Script
The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.

The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.
It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.

Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts
Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.

From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an
A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!

Dated Texts Containing The Qur’an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.
The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.
2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts
THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS
No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in Kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript.
FIRST CENTURY HIJRA
There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are primarily dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the ‘Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the ḥijazi script.

Codex Ṣanʿāʾ – Inv. No. 01-27.1: Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.
Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ inv. 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of £2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. Below is a detailed description of some of the folios from this codex.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Luqmān And Sūrah al-Sajda.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This palimpsest from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra. An image acquired using ultraviolet photography is also shown in order to appreciate the improvement of contrast of the washed-off writing. This manuscript may have belonged to the same codex as the one discussed below.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah al-Sajda And Sūrah al-Ahzāb.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This manuscript from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.

Surah al-‘Imran. Verses number : End Of Verse 45 To 54 And Part Of 55.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End Of Verse 49 Of Surah Al-Shura To Verse 31 Of Surah al-Zukhruf And Part Of 32.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.

Arabe 328a: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.
This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from first century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana and the Nasser David Khalili Collection. This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 28% of the total text of the Qur'an.

Vat. Ar. 1605: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana.
A manuscript from the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana [Vatican Library] written in the ḥijāzī script. This manuscript, one folio in the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Accession No. KFQ 60, published by Déroche) and 56 folios in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris (Arabe 328a) are parts of the same muṣḥaf. They all are dated to first century of hijra.

MS. Or. 2165: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.
Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.

The “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.
This monumental and the earliest Kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

The ‘Mingana Palimpsest’ – A Manuscript Containing Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.

An ‘Umayyad’ Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.

Surah al-An‘am. Verses number : Part Of Verse 5 To 19 And Part Of 20.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Nahl. Verses number : End Of Verse 73 To 88 And Part Of 89.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Maryam & Sūrah Ṭāhā.
This folio has probably been written by two different copyists as the script in the first half is different from the second. It is italic in the first half and regular in the second half of the fragment except for the letter alīf. The ornamentation here is simple. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Qur'anic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.
Eight leaves (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of Sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains Sūrah āl-‘Imrān, verses 34-184.

A Perg. 2: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
A manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna, written in the ḥijāzī script.

A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.
A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.

P. Michaélidès No. 32 - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Collection George Michaélidès, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.

A Ma‘il Manuscript in Kuwait - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma‘il script [External Link].
FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Codex Mixt. 917 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.

Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Kahf (18) Verses Number: Part Of 17 To 27 And Part Of 28.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SECOND CENTURY HIJRA

Surah al-Tawba, Surah Yunus: Part Of 129 From Surah Al-Tawba To Part Of 4 From Surah Yunus.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 213: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.

A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.

A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in themashq script.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph ‘Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ‘Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.

The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.

One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.
An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).

A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.
A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].
SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA

Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An‘am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An‘am.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.

Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.
Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS
EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS

Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page
It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.

The Schøyen Collection, National Library Of Norway
It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.
3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijazi or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.

Y. Dutton, "An Early Mushaf According To The Reading Of Ibn ‘Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.
This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn ‘Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.

Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's 'Oldest Qur'an Manuscript' (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.
The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn ‘Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.

Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.
This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

  1. Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
  2. The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
  3. The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.
4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections

Maktabat al-Jami‘ al-Kabir (Maktabat al-Awqaf), The Great Mosque, San‘a', Yemen (See the manuscripts from 1st, 1st/2nd, 2nd and 2nd/3rd century of hijra).

Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo, Egypt.

Astan-i Quds-i Razavi Library, Mashhad, Iran.

Islamic Museum, Jerusalem, Palestine.

Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain (See the manuscripts from 1st and 1st/2nd century of hijra).

The Nasser David Khalili Collection Of Islamic Art, London, United Kingdom.

Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, France.

The Oriental Institute Museum, University of Chicago, Chicago, United States of America.

The Chester Beatty Library, Dublin, Ireland.

The Institute Of Oriental Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences, St. Petersburg, Russia (See the manuscript from 1st/2nd century of hijra).


it isn't as comprehensive as a history of Quranic text from revelation to compilation, but it will do for your purposes...

2- I can say in a matter of course that you haven't read the Quran.. had you done, you'd have seen many differences between it and your bible.. and again I won't deleve into this, since if you are interested in similarities or differences you'd simply read it.
3- we don't believe in self-immolating men/gods who pray to themselves before sacrificing themselves.. breaking all the laws of the OT for something as silly as eating our sins in advance..
if god wanted to eat sins in advance, then I am sure he wouldn't mind accepting into heaven, muslims who lead a far more righteous life than christians forgoing organ playing and hand clapping for proper fast/prayer/charity and pilgrimage..

so at the end of the day it is all about what rocks your world.. a dying man/god worthy fairy tales fit for children 'Narnia style' or a God who is one, indivisible and there are none like unto him?

I personally think the choice is rather simple for folks who openly reflect..

all the best
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 12:32 AM
repeat post but would like to comment that.. the fear and punishment thing is rather the product of your creative churches who for centuries weren't content to lie in their own scriptures but to distort the image of Islam.. perhaps if they'd take the time to learn the religion they'd not be so notoriously met with so much resistance .. after all who wants to leave the path of enlightenment into the depth of the dark ages? and I say this with utmost respect of course!

all the best
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 12:39 AM
hurch Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible
M S M Saifullah, Qasim Iqbal & Muhammad Ghoniem
© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
Last Modified: 31st August 1999

Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
The basis of evaluation of any hadîth (story or report) in Islam of any text concerned particularly with religion is based on the study of matn (i.e., text) and its isnad (i.e., chain of narration).
A hadîth (pl. ahâdîth) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; cAbdullah b. al-Mubârak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Imâm al-Bukhârî, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."[1]
The Christian 'hadîth' is composed of matn (text) but no isnad (chain of narration). Without isnad, as cAbdullah b. al-Mubarak said, anyone can claim anything saying that it is coming from the authority. The authorities in the case of Christian 'hadîth' are the Apostles and later day Church Fathers. But how can one be sure that the Christian 'hadîth' is not mixed with falsehood without the proper isnad and its verification?
The Old Testament, to certain extent and the New Testament in toto lack chain of narration. When this argument was put forward, the Christian missionary Jochen Katz wrote:
On 8 Oct 1998, Jochen Katz wrote (on a different thread):

> That is a bogus argument from an Islamic point of view.
Missionaries when cornered try to wiggle out of the argument by calling names. According to Katz, the Islamic argument of using the chain of narration, i.e., isnad, is 'bogus' because the New Testament and major part of Old Testament lacks it and above all it is a Muslim argument. By calling the Islamic argument of isnad 'bogus' Katz thought that he is already refuted it. Unfortunately, the Orientalists like Bernard Lewis who read this 'bogus' Islamic tradition and compares it with the Christian scholarship say that:
From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.[2]
So, after all this Islamic science of hadîth, called 'bogus' by Katz, was so advanced that its Christian counterparts were far far away from its sophistication. Futher where does it sophistication lie?
. . . it would have been easy to invent sayings of Muhammad. Because the cultural background of the Arabs had been oral the evidence that came to be expected was the chain of names of those who had passed on the anecdote containing the saying . . . The study of Traditions rapidly became a distinct branch of the studies of the general religious movement. It was soon realized that false Traditions were in circulation with sayings that Muhammad could not possibly have uttered. The chains of transmitters were therefore carefully scrutinised to make sure that the persons named could in fact have met one another, that they could be trusted to repeat the story accurately, and that they did not hold any heretical views. This implied extensive biographical studies; and many biographical dictionaries have been preserved giving the basic information about a man's teachers and pupils, the views of later scholars (on his reliability as a transmitter) and the date of his death. This biography-based critique of Traditions helped considerably to form a more or less common mind among many men throughout the caliphate about what was to be accepted and what rejected.[3]
If the Muslim traditions have been bogus, how come the Jews did not understand this and went on to use the great works composed by Muslims? Saadia Gaon, the famous Jewish linguist, says:
Saadia expresses himself unreservedly about his indebtness to Arabic authors, who served him as models in the composition of his work. "It is reported," he says, "that one of the worthies among the Ishmaelites, realizing to his sorrow that the people do not use the Arabic language correctly, wrote a short treatise for them. From which they might learn proper usages. Similarly, I have noticed that many of the Israelites even the common rules for the correct usage of our (Hebrew) language, much less the more difficult rules, so that when they speak in prose most of it is faulty, and when they write poetry only a few of the ancient rules are observed, and majority of them are neglected. This has induced me to compose a work in two parts containing most of the (Hebrew) words.[4]
Guillaume informs us in his preface of the book The Legacy Of Islam:
Since the beginning of the nineteenth century there has been a constant recourse to Arabic for the explanation of rare words and forms in Hebrew; for Arabic though more than a thousand years junior as a literary language, is the senior philosophically by countless centuries. Perplexing phenomenon in Hebrew can often be explained as solitary and archaic survivals of the form which are frequent and common in the cognate Arabic. Words and idioms whose precise sense had been lost in Jewish tradition, receive a ready and convincing explanation from the same source. Indeed no serious student of the Old Testament can afford to dispense with a first-hand knowledge in Arabic. The pages of any critical commentary on the Old Testament will illustrate the debt of the Biblical exegesis owes to Arabic.[5]
It turns out that the same tradition which Katz addressed as 'bogus' result in the exegesis of his own scriptures, the Old Testament.

Since Christianity did not have anything like the 'tradition' to evaluate their own material, we see quite a lot of differences. Let us now examine the great tradition of the Church which Katz wants Muslims to trust and also to see which tradition is really bogus.
This document is divided into the following:
1. Church Tradition & The Bible

It must be made clear that there is nothing like one Bible with a set of books. The number of books in the Bible actually depend upon the Church one follows. Therefore if we follow the Church tradition we end with following Bibles. They differ in number of books in both the Old Testament and the New Testament:

Protestant Church
Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books ( Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.[6]
Roman Catholic Church
The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.[7]
Anglican Church
The Anglican church falls between the Catholic church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the Authorized or King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments.[8]
Greek Orthodox Church
The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.[9] (See below)
Coptic Church
Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.[10]
Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church
Until 1959, the Ethiopic Church was under the jurisdiction of the head of Coptic Church. Hence it is not surprising that its canon of Scripture should parallel in some respects that of the Coptic Church.
The Ethiopic church has the largest Bible of all, and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader," according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.[11]
Bruce Metzger in his book The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development elaborates more on the books accepted by Ethiopic Church. The'broader' Canon of Ethiopic New Testament consists of the following thirty five books:
The four Gospels
Acts
The (seven) Catholic Epistles
The (fourteen) Epistles of Paul
The Book of Revelation
Sinodos (four sections)
Clement
The Book of the Covenant (two sections)
Didascalia
The contents of the last four titles in the list are as follows. The Sinodos is a book of church order, comprising an extensive collection of canons, prayers, and instructions attributed to Clement of Rome.
Clement (Qalementos) is a book in seven parts, communicated by Peter to Clement. It is not the Roman or Corinthian correspondence, nor one of the three parts of the Sinodos that are sometimes called 1, 2, and 3 Clement, nor part of the Syriac Octateuch of Clement.
The Book of Covenant (Mashafa kidan) is counted as two parts. The first part of sixty sections comprises chiefly material on church order; section 61 is a discourse of the Lord to his disciples after his resurrection, similar to the Testamentum Domini.
The Ethiopic Didascalia (Didesqelya) is a book of Church order in forty-three chapters, distinct from the Didascalia Apostolorum, but similar to books I-VII of so-called Apostlic Constitutions.[12]
Syriac Church
Let us also not forget the Syriac Churches which used to deal with Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian which was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Pe****ta. Pe****ta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament.
This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Pe****ta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (AD 431) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.[13]
Pe****ta is still followed by the Christians in the sourthern state of Kerala in India.
Still today the official lectionary followed by the Syrian Orthodox Church, with headquarters at Kottayam (Kerala), and the Chaldean Syriac Church, also known as the the Church of the East (Nestorian), with headquarters at Trichur (Kerala), presents lessons from only the twenty-two books of Pe****ta, the version to which appeal is made for the settlement of doctrinal questions.[14]
To make the issue clearer, we are here dealing with different number of books of New Testament followed by different churches all over the world. These are not the different translations of the Bible, the argument which Christian missionaries use to brush the problem under the carpet. Calling another church heretical is not going to work the problem out because there was no single book right from the beginning of Christianity which constituted the New Testament as we would see later, inshallah. The New Testament as we see today, depends upon the Church again(!), is a product of centuries worth of metamorphosis. Under "Canon of the New Testament" the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.[15]
So, the great Church tradition has not made up her mind on the Bible.
Now this would be big enough problem for the Christian missionaries to ruminate, inshallah. Let us now go into the issue of what the Apostolic Fathers refer to during their time.
2. Church Tradition & Apostolic Fathers

It is a frequent claim by the Christian missionaries that the Church Fathers believed that the New Testament was considered as 'inspired' Scripture.
Bruce M Metzger, a noted authority on the New Testament, analyzing the Apostolic Fathers viz., Clement of Rome, Ignatius, the Didache, fragments of Papias, Barnabas, Hermas of Rome, and the so-called 2 Clement concludes the following:
Clement Of Rome
By way of summary, we see that Clement's Bible is the Old Testament, to which he refers repeated as Scripture, quoting it with more or less exactness. Clement also makes occasional reference to certain words of Jesus; though they are authoritative to him, he does not appear to enquire how their authenticity is ensured. In two of the three instances that he speaks of remembering 'the words' of Christ or of the Lord Jesus, it seems that he has a written record in mind, but he does not call it a 'gospel'. He knows several of Paul's epistles, and values them highly for their content; the same can be said of the Epistle of the Hebrews with which he is well acquainted. Although these writings obviously possess for Clement considerable significance, he never refers to them as authoritative 'Scripture'.[16]
Ignatius Of Antioch
The upshot of all this is that the primary authority for Ignatius was the apostolic preaching about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, though it made little difference to him whether it was oral or written. He certainly knew a collection of Paul's epistles, including (in the order of frequency of his use of them) 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. It is probable that he knew the Gospels according to Matthew and John, and perhaps also Luke. There is no evidence that he regarded any of these Gospels or Epistles as 'Scripture'.[17]
The Didache
The Didache is a short manual or moral instruction and Church practice. The Church history writer Eusebius and Athanasius even considered to be on the fringe of the New Testament Canon[18]. Assigning the composition of Didache has ranged from first century to fourth century by the scholars, but most of them prefer to assign it in the first half of the second century[19]. Metzger summarizes the book as:
By way of summary, we can see from Didache that itinerant apostles and Prophets still find an important place in the life of the Church, but this authority is declining. Their activity is surrounded by all sorts of precautions and rests ultimately on the authority of the traditional teaching deriving from the Lord, whose manner they must exhibit: 'Not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the ways of the Lord. By their ways, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be distinguished' (xi. 8). The author refers to the gospel, but he cites only words of Jesus. This 'gospel', which is without doubt the Gospel according to Matthew, is not regarded as a necessary source from which the words of the Lord, with indispensable warrants, come to the faithful, but quite simply as a convenient collection of these words.[20]
Papias Of Heirapolis
By way of summary, Papias stands as a kind of bridge between the oral and written stages in the transmission of the gospel tradition. Although he professes to have a marked preference for the oral tradition, one nevertheless sees at work the causes that, more and more, would lead to the rejection of that form of tradition in favour of written gospels. On the whole, therefore, the testimony of Papias concerning the development of the canon of the New Testament is significant chiefly in reflecting the usage of the community in which devotion to oral tradition hindered the development of a clear idea of canonicity.[21]
Barnabas
Epistle of Barnabas is a theological tract. Both Clement of Alexandria and Origen valued the work highly and attributed its composition Barnabas, the companion and co-worker of the apostle Paul.
Metzger summarizes the position of Barnabas concerning the scripture as the following.
By way of summary, one can see that for Barnabas the Scriptures are what we call the Old Testament, including several books outside the Hebrew canon. Most of his contacts with the Synoptic traditions involve simple sentences that might well have been known to a Christian of that time from oral tradition. As against the single instance of his using the formula, 'it is written', in introducing the statement, 'Many are called, but few are chosen', must be placed his virtual neglect of the New Testament. If, on the other hand, he wrote shortly before or after 130, the focus of his subject matter would not make it necessary to do much quoting from New Testament books - if indeed he knew many of them. In either case he provides no evidence for the development of the New Testament canon.[22]
Polycarp Of Smyrna
By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hebrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John. As for the Gospels, he cites as sayings of the Lord phrases that we find in Matthew and Luke. With one exception, none of Polycarp's many allusions is cited as Scripture - and that exception, as we have seen, is held by some to have been mistakenly attributed to the Old Testament. At the same time Polycarp's mind is not only saturated with ideas and phrases derived from a considerable number of writings that later came to be regarded as New Testament Scriptures, but he also displays latent respect for these apostolic documents as possessing an authority lacking in other writings. Polycarp, as Grant remarks, 'clearly differentiates the apostolic age from his own time and, presumably for this reason, does not use the letters of Ignatius as authoritiesóeven though they "contain faith, endurance, and all the edification which pertains to our Lord" (xiii. 2)'.[23]
Hermas Of Rome
By way of summary, it is obvious that Hermas was not given to making quotations from literature; in fact, the only actual book anywhere named and quoted in the Shepherd ( Vis. ii. 3) is an obscure Jewish apocalypse known as the book of Eldad and Modat. Despite reminiscences from Matthew, Ephesians, and James, Hermas makes no comment that would lead us to think that he regarded them as canonical Scripture. From the testimony contained in the Shepherd, it can in any case be observed how uneven during the course of the second century was the development of the idea of the canon.[24]
The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement
This work is not the genuine work of Clement of Rome. This is regarded as an early Christian sermon. The style of this work is different from that of 1 Clement. Both date and composition of this work are difficult to determine. It was probably written around 150 CE. Metzger summarizes the contents of this work as:
By way of recapitulation, the unknown author of 2 Clement certainly knew and used Matthew and Luke, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. There is no trace of the Johannine Gospel or Epistles, or of the Book of Acts. And one can not say more than that he may have known Hebrews, James, and 1 Peter. Of the eleven times he cites words of Jesus, five are not to be found in the canonical Gospels. The presence of these latter, as well as the citation in xi. 2-4 of an apocryphal book of the Old Testament, introduced as 'the prophetic word', shows that our homilist's quotations of divinely authoritative words are not controlled by any strict canonical idea, even in relation to Old Testament writings.[25]
After studying the writings of all the Apostolic Fathers, Bruce Metzger concludes that:
For early Jewish Christians the Bible consisted of the Old Testament and some Jewish apocryphal literature. Along with this written authority went traditions, chiefly oral, of sayings attributed to Jesus. On the other hand, authors who belonged to the 'Hellenistic Wing' of the Church refer more frequently to writings that later came to be included in the New Testament. At the same time, however, they very rarely regarded such documents as 'Scripture'.
Furthermore, there was as yet no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not yet in the full sense canonical. Consequently, it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to ascertain which New Testament books were known to early Christian writers; our evidence does not become clear until the end of second century.[26]
We have evidence of the spotty development and treatment of the writings later regarded as the New Testament in the second and third centuries CE. Gradually written Gospels, and collections of epistles, different ones in different regions, became to be more highly regarded.

So for 200 years or so there was nothing like New Testament to begin with. The great Church tradition did not even bother to collect the 'Scriptures' between two covers!

3. Church Tradition & The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament
Now when the Church tradition finally started to make up her mind on compiling the New Testament various lists of books in the Canons of the Bible were drawn. Bruce Metzger gives the following list of the Canons of the Bible drawn at different times in the 'western' Church. Please note that we still do not have the great deal of idea about how many lists were drawn in the Eastern Churches such as Coptic and Ethiopic. The following are the canons drawn at various points of time in the Church history.
To complete the thoughts about how the New Testament evolved, a brief survey of early lists of the books of the New Testament is necessary. The list is taken from Appendix IV of Bruce Metzger's The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development[27].


The earliest exact reference to the 'complete' New Testament as we now know it was in the year 367 CE, in a letter by Athanasius. This did not settle the matter. Varying lists continued to be drawn up by different church authorities as can be seen from above.

The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the authority for the Canon and the interpretation of scripture, therefore the owner of the list of 27 books. Nevertheless, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, entry "Canon of NT" proclaims that 20 books of the New Testament are inherently worth more than the 7 deuterocanonical books (Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation), acknowledging that the authenticity or reliability of them had already been challenged by ancient Christian authorities.
The Catholic New Testament, as defined by the Council of Trent, does not differ, as regards the books contained, from that of all Christian bodies at present. Like the Old Testament, the New has its deuterocanonical books and portions of books, their canonicity having formerly been a subject of some controversy in the Church. These are for the entire books: the Epistle to the Hebrews, that of James, the Second of St. Peter, the Second and Third of John, Jude, and Apocalypse; giving seven in all as the number of the New Testament contested books. The formerly disputed passages are three: the closing section of St. Mark's Gospel, xvi, 9-20 about the apparitions of Christ after the Resurrection; the verses in Luke about the bloody sweat of Jesus, xxii, 43, 44; the Pericope Adulteræ, or narrative of the woman taken in adultery, St. John, vii, 53 to viii, 11. Since the Council of Trent it is not permitted for a Catholic to question the inspiration of these passages.[28]
We will deal more with the individual books (i.e., Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation) later, inshallah.

4. Church Tradition & 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books

Whatever this word 'inspiration' means in the Church tradition to select the books, it does not mean what it actually means. A small list of the following books which are not there in the present day New Testament were at once time considered 'inspired'. Going further in history as the concept of New Testament 'Canon' evolved many books were considered 'inspired' which we do not see in the Bibles of 20th century. A brief survey of those books would be considered here.

The Didache:
Several of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers were for a time regarded in some localities as authoritative. The Didache was used both by Clement of Alexandria and by Origen as Scripture, and there is evidence that during the following century it continued to be so regarded in Egypt.[29]
Epistle of Clement:
The text of the (First) Epistle of Clement is contained, along with a portion of the so-called Second Epistle of Clement, at the end of the fifth-century Codex Alexandrinus of the Greek Bible (the manuscript is defective at the end). Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all made use of the epistle. We know that about A.D. 170 it was customary to read 1 Clement in public services of worship at Corinth.[30]
Epistle of Barnabas:
The Epistle of Barnabas was for a time on the fringe of the canon. Clement of Alexandria regarded it as of sufficient importance to write a commentary on it in his Hypotyposes, now lost. Origen calls it 'catholic', a term that he elsewhere applies to 1 Peter and 1 John. It stands after the New Testament in the fourth-century Codex Sinaiticus of the Greek Bible.[31]
Shepherd of Hermas:
The Shepherd of Hermas was used as Scripture by Irenaeus, Tertullian (before his conversion to Montanism), Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, though according to Origen it was not generally read in church. The Muratorian Canon reflects the esteem in which the work was held at the time that list was compiled, but according to the unknown compiler, it might be read but not proclaimed as Scripture in church.[32]
Furthermore, Clement of Alexandria had a very 'open' canon, i.e., he did not mind using the materials of pagans, 'heretics' and other Christian literature.[33] It is worthwhile reminding here that we have already seen different set of books in Ethiopic and Coptic Church.

5. Church Tradition & Manuscripts

As much as there is a variation is the canons of the Bible as well as in its 'inspiration', it is reflected in the manuscripts too. Below is some material taken from The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Under "Text, NT". Interestingly enough, this section starts with The Problem. Many Christian apologists prefer to brush this well-known problem under the carpet as if it does not exist!
THE PROBLEM. The NT is now known, whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek MSS alone. Every one of these handwritten copics differ from every other one. In addition to these Greek MSS, the NT has been preserved in more than ten thousand MSS of the early versions and in thousands of quotations of the Church Fathers. These MSS of the versions and quotations of the Church Fathers differ from one another just as widely as do the Greek MSS. Only a fraction of this great mass of material has been fully collated and carefully studied. Until this task is completed, the uncertainty regarding the text of the NT will remain.

It has been estimated that these MSS and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher. A study of 150 Greek MSS of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings. It is true, of course, that the addition of the readings from another 150 MSS of Luke would not add another 30,000 readings to the list. But each MS studied does add substantially to the list of variants. It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS tradition is wholly uniform.

Many thousands of these different readings are variants in orthography or grammar or style and however effect upon the meaning of the text. But there are many thousands which have a definite effect upon the meaning of the text. It is true that not one of these variant readings affects the substance of Christian dogma. It is equally true that many of them do have theological significance and were introduced into the text intentionally. It may not, e.g., affect the substance of Christian dogma to accept the reading "Jacob the father of Joseph, and Joseph (to whom the virgin Mary was betrothed) the father of Jesus who is called 'Christ'" (Matt. 1:16), as does the Sinaitic Syriac; but it gives rise to a theological problem.

It has been said that the great majority of the variant readings in the text of the NT arose before the books of the NT were canonized and that after those books were canonized, they were very carefully copied because they were scripture. This, however, is far from being the case.

It is true, of course, that many variants arose in the very earliest period. There is no reason to suppose, e.g., that the first person who ever made a copy of the autograph of thc Gospel of Luke did not change his copy to conform to the particular tradition with which he was familiar. But he was under no compulsion to do so. Once the Gospel of Luke had become scripture, however, the picture was changed completely. Then the copyist was under compulsion to change his copy, to correct it. Because it was scripture, it had to be right.[34]
After reading all this, does not the Muslim position of the corruption of the Bible hold water? And of course, again which Bible manuscript is inspired?

Now we all know that none of the variants that are there in the Bible have a chain of narration or isnad. So it is very hard to say which one or ones is the true reading and the other the bogus one. So, futher on we read:
Many thousands of the variants which are found in the MSS of the NT were put there deliberately. They are not merely the result of error or of careless handling of the text. Many were created for theological or dogmatic reasons (even though they may not affect the substance of Christian dogma). It is because the books of the NT are religious books, sacred books, canonical books, that they were changed to conform to what the copyist believed to be the true reading. His interest was not in the "original reading but in the "true reading." This is precisely the attitude toward the NT which prevailed from the earliest times to the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the invention of printing. The thousands of Greek MSS, MSS of the versions, and quotations of the Church Fathers provide the source for our knowledge of the earliest or original text of the NT and of the history of the transmission of that text before the invention of printing.[34]
Now if you do not know what the "original reading" is, then there is no point talking about 'believing' in what is supposed to be the "original" reading. So, this is the great Christian Church tradition which cannot even produce two identical manuscripts! Furthermore on "original" reading one can say that since there are no original manuscripts, there is not point talking about "original" reading at all. This search for "original" reading would be a guess work or 'consensus'. Indeed the Acts of Apostles has earned the notoriety for the variant readings.
In fact no book of the NT gives evidence of so much verbal variation as does the Acts of Apostles. Besides the text represented in the oldest uncial Greek MSS, begin with the Codex Vaticanus, often called the Neutral Text and dating back to the second century AD, there is evidence either of a consistent alternative text equally old, or of a series of early miscellaneous variants, to which the name Western text is traditionally applied. The ancient authorities of the Western Text of Acts include only one Greek (or rather bilingual Greek and Latin) uncial MS, Codex Bezae of the fifth or sixth century. But the variants often have striking content and strong early support from Latin writers and Latin NT MSS. It now appears that while both the Neutral and Western texts were in circulation, the former is the more likely of the two to represent the original.[35]
Apart from the notorious variation, we also have the problem of which text is the original text. Since we do not know which one is original, the guess work in pressed into service. This is one such example of guess work. And how come guess work leads to truth?
We have already seen that the there is no original document of the Bible available to us to verify its inerrancy doctrine. Concerning the New Testament documents The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible confirms that:
The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and persihable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities.[36]
So, the Qur'an in this aspect is far more better placed than the Bible with all the Qiraa'a associated with it clearly listed with detailed chain of narrations going back to the Companions of the Prophet(P) who in turn learnt the Qur'an from the Prophet(P) himself.

6. Church Tradition & The Six 'Disputed' Books

As we have seen above that the books of Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude and Revelation had quite a dubious history of the entry into the canon, it is time that we have a cursory glance over their comparatively recent history.

Zwingli, at the Berne disputation of 1528, denied that Revelation was a book of the New Testament.[37]

Martin Luther condemned the Epistle of James as worthless, an 'epistle of straw.' Furthermore, he denigrated Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation). He did not omit them from his German Bible, but drew a line in the table of contents, putting them on a lower level than the rest of the New Testament. In Prefaces to each of these books, Luther explains his doubts as to their apostolic as well as canonical authority.[38]

The reformer known as Andreas Bodenstein of Karlstadt (1480-1541) divided the New Testament into three ranks of differing dignity. On the lowest level are the seven disputed books of James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation).[39]
Oecolampadius in 1531 under Wurttemberg Confession declared that while all 27 books should be received, the Apocalypse (Revelation), James, Jude, 2 Peter 2 and 3 John should not be compared to the rest of the books.[40]
Early in his career, Erasmus (d. 1536) doubted that Paul was the author of Hebrews, and James of the epistle bearing the name. He also questioned the authorship of 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude. The style of Revelation precludes it from being written by the author of the Fourth Gospel.[41]
The same four books are labeled 'Apocrypha' in a Bible from Hamburg in 1596. In Sweden, beginning in 1618, the Gustavus Adolphus Bible labels the four dubious books as 'Apocryphal New Testament.' This arrangement lasted for more than a century.[42]
Conclusions

With all the gory details of the Church history and the Bible are out, with no clear cut indication of the Bible and its 'inspiration', why would any Muslim even bother to read it? And above all why should a Christian missionaries would push such a dubious set of scriptures down the throat of Muslims? And above all why call it injil?

cAbdullah Ibn Mascud, the well known Companion of the Prophet(P), is reported to have said:
Do not ask the ahl al-kitab about anything (in tafsir), for they cannot guide you and are themselves in error....[43]
If Christianity has got the biographies of the people who transmitted their New Testament or Old Testament as well as their traditions, it would compete with the Islamic science of hadîth. Alas, with no isnad, who is going to believe in their Bible and what is in it? And as the illustrious teacher of Imaam Bukhari had said:
"The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."
The lack of isnad and people drawing different Canons of the Bible seem to be the problem of people saying whatever they wished. Any one would claim anything and the Bible canon seems to reflect precisely that.
And look how bogus the missionary argument turned out to be!
A Few Questions
As Muslims we are obliged to ask:

  1. Which Bible or the books are inspired? Is it the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopic, Coptic or the Syriac? Please remember that they contain different number of books. It is just not the "oh! those are different translations".
  2. How can we trust the Church tradition when she herself cannot produce a reliable bunch of books worth calling a Bible?
  3. Why should we trust the Church which cannot even produce a set of manuscripts throughout the centuries which can be relied on instead of the guess work to find which reading is the original?
  4. How do we know that Jesus(P) said what is there in the Bible as there is no way of confirm how his words got transmitted? This is one of the major argument of Islamic traditionalists against the Older scriptures which deal with Israa'iliyat stuff. And they were rejected outright for very obvious reasons.

And if Christian missionaries cannot answer these question, there is no point calling the Bible as a reliable document. Therefore, an unreliable document is worth not calling a 'Scripture'.
Other Articles Related To The Textual Reliability Of The Bible
Islamic Awareness

Bible

Text

Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible


References
[1] Suhaib Hasan, An Introduction To The Science Of Hadîth, 1995, Darussalam Publishers, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, p. 11.
[2] Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105.
[3] W Montgomery Watt, What Is Islam?, 1968, Longman, Green and Co. Ltd., pp. 124-125.
[4] Henry Malter, Saadia Gaon: His Life And Works, 1921, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, pp. 39-40.
[5] Alfred Guillaume, The Legacy Of Islam, 1931, Oxford, p. ix.
[6] Bruce M Metzger & Michael D Coogan (Ed.), Oxford Companion To The Bible, 1993, Oxford University Press, Oxford & New York, pp. 79 (Under 'Bible').
[7] Ibid.
[8] Ibid.
[9] Ibid.
[10] Bruce M Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, 1997, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 225.
[11] Metzger, Oxford Companion To The Bible, Op.Cit, p. 79.
[12] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 227-228.
[13] Ibid., p. 219.
[14] Ibid., p. 220.
[15] The Catholic Encyclopedia Online Edition.
[16] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 43.
[17] Ibid., p. 49.
[18] Ibid., p. 49.
[19] Ibid., p. 50.
[20] Ibid., p. 51.
[21] Ibid., pp. 55-56.
[22] Ibid., pp. 58-59.
[23] Ibid., pp. 62-63.
[24] Ibid., p. 67.
[25] Ibid., pp. 71-72.
[26] Ibid., pp. 72-73.
[27] Ibid., pp. 305-315.
[28] The Catholic Encyclopedia Online Edition.
[29] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 187-188.
[30] Ibid., p. 188.
[31] Ibid.
[32] Ibid.
[33] Ibid., pp.130-135.
[34] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 4, 1962 (1996 Print), Abingdon Press, Nashville, pp. 594-595 (Under Text, NT).
[35] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 41 (Under "Acts of the Apostles").
[36] Ibid., p. 599 (Under "Text, NT').
[37] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 273.
[38] Ibid., p. 243.
[39] Ibid., pp. 241-242.
[40] Ibid., p. 244.
[41] Ibid., p. 241.
[42] Ibid., pp. 244-245.
[43] Ahmad von Denffer, cUlûm al-Qur'an, 1994, The Islamic Foundation, p. 134.


http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bib...tml#Protestant
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
DovVN
06-20-2009, 12:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
repeat post but would like to comment that.. the fear and punishment thing is rather the product of your creative churches who for centuries weren't content to lie in their own scriptures but to distort the image of Islam.. perhaps if they'd take the time to learn the religion they'd not be so notoriously met with so much resistance .. after all who wants to leave the path of enlightenment into the depth of the dark ages? and I say this with utmost respect of course!

all the best
I wasnt looking for a list of reasons why you believe the Quran is true.I have read alot of them already.I was looking for an opinion on the points that I brought up.Specifically how God would not be able to control how his revelation to man was written and then have to "fix it" with the Quran.And also what will happen when a third revelation comes along claiming that Islam was corrupted.


I agree the church has made many mistakes.Im not familiar with the image of Islam created by any church.I came to these conclusions on my own based on what I know of Islam and comparing it to what I know about Christianity.Is it not true that to get into heaven you must do more good than bad?Is it true that the Quran doesnt mention the word love once?It seems like a legalistic system to me.That is the opposite of Christianity.Doing good is the proof that you have accepted Jesus.Not the way to heaven.

I am aware that the old testament and the Quran are similar.My arguement is that the Quran doesnt reveal anything new except to correct a few inaccuracies that it claims are in the bible(of course there are other differences).So Im asking what its purpose is.I think this is the main reason I dont read the Quran.It just seems to rehash the old testament but with different stories.
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN
I wasnt looking for a list of reasons why you believe the Quran is true.I have read alot of them already.I was looking for an opinion on the points that I brought up.Specifically how God would not be able to control how his revelation to man was written and then have to "fix it" with the Quran.And also what will happen when a third revelation comes along claiming that Islam was corrupted.
I don't think you have them, and if you do then you have not read them.. opinion should be based on sound reason. The ills of the OT/Bible didn't happen with the Quran for reasons above..

8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

whereas in the Quran:

“Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Quran 15:9)
simply to sum it in a nut shell without going through the machination of that process (for the lazy)


I agree the church has made many mistakes.Im not familiar with the image of Islam created by any church.I came to these conclusions on my own based on what I know of Islam and comparing it to what I know about Christianity.Is it not true that to get into heaven you must do more good than bad?Is it true that the Quran doesnt mention the word love once?It seems like a legalistic system to me.That is the opposite of Christianity.Doing good is the proof that you have accepted Jesus.Not the way to heaven.
No one goes to heaven because of good or bad deeds.. they go solely on God's mercy, you see that is another reason, I believe you are completely clueless as far as Islamic texts. That is a very basic principal in Islam

“...And know that Allâh knows what is in your hearts and take heed of Him; and know that Allâh is Oft Forgiving, Most Forbearing.” (2:235)

“Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allâh, and ask forgiveness for your fault...” (47:19).

“Be you foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Rabb, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of Heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers. That is the Grace of Allâh, which He bestows on whom He pleases; and Allâh is the Rabb (Only God) of Grace abounding.” (57:21)

“O you who believe! Fear, Allâh, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy. He will provide for you a Light by which you shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past); for Allâh is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (57:28)

Islâm further guides us to salvation with various supplications for forgiveness. Examples of such supplications are as follows:

“…Our Rabb! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error. Our Rabb! Lay not on us a burden as You did lay on those before us. Our Rabb! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Protector. Grant us victory over the unbelievers.” (2:286)

“... ‘Our Rabb! Perfect our Light for us, and grant us Forgiveness, for You have power over all things.’” (66:8)

Abdullâh bin Amr t narrated that Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said to the Prophet r “O Allâh’s Messenger! Teach me an invocation with which I may invoke Allâh in my prayers.” The Prophet r said Say: “Allâhumma inni dhalamtu nafsi dhulman kathiran wala yaghfiru dh-dhunuba illa anta, Faghfirli maghfiratan min indika war-hamni, innaka antalGhafur-Rahim.” (O Allâh! I have wronged my soul very much (oppressed myself), and none forgives the sins but You; so please bestow Your Forgiveness upon me. No doubt, You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” ) (Bukhâri 8/388 and 9/485)

I am aware that the old testament and the Quran are similar.My arguement is that the Quran doesnt reveal anything new except to correct a few inaccuracies that it claims are in the bible(of course there are other differences).So Im asking what its purpose is.I think this is the main reason I dont read the Quran.It just seems to rehash the old testament but with different stories.
Again, if you had read the Quran you'd see many a new things not previously revealed :

Luqman
Ahel Al'kahf
Zhu el'Qernyen
A'ad
Thamud

the point of the Quran is mercy for all of man kind, whereas all the previous prophets were revealed to their folks, Prophet Mohammed was sent to all of man-kind


New International Version (©1984)
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'


I am at least glad you ended on an honest note, which is that you've never read the Quran...

at day's end, you should go the path that comforts you heart, mind and soul, and Christianity doesn't fulfill any of those criteria unfortunately..


all the best
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 01:11 AM
All the information you have posted really has little to do with anything Ive asked.You seem to have an automatic response to a person questioning your faith.Im asking specific questions.Not asking you to prove your faith to me or prove to me why the bible is false.


From what I understand,Islam is based off the old testament of the bible.Am I incorrect in saying this?Based on tis Im simply questioning how you can think the Quran is true if God cant get it right the first time.It seems to open up a perpetual doubting of anything God writes or reveals.
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 01:14 AM
I have answered your specific questions above.. and I have supported them with the longer posts so we are not dancing around the same point.. indeed we have ready made answers-- even though you all read, and later decide you haven't really read, 'but because it is all the same anyway' seem to come up with the same questions and conclusions.. one wonders if it is indoctrination, plagiarism or just plain taking us for clods?

all the best
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 01:22 AM
You wrote....

"I am at least glad you ended on an honest note, which is that you've never read the Quran...

at day's end, you should go the path that comforts you heart, mind and soul, and Christianity doesn't fulfill any of those criteria unfortunately.."

I have read some of it.It just didnt seem to have anything new to offer except claims that the bible isnt true so I havent spent alot of time on it.
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 01:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I have answered your specific questions above.. and I have supported them with the longer posts so we are not dancing around the same point.. indeed we have ready made answers-- even though you all read, and later decide you haven't really read, 'but because it is all the same anyway' seem to come up with the same questions and conclusions.. one wonders if it is indoctrination, plagiarism or just plain taking us for clods?

all the best
You really shouldnt be so defensive when you are representing Islam to the public.If you dont agree with me thats fine.No need to be so hostile.Im sure Allah wouldnt approve.
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 01:30 AM
You haven't read it nor listened to it.. where in your bible/ot have you come across this
in reason, lyricism, meaning, textual integrity as in verses revealed years apart and still follow in context, rhyme, rationality and transcendence?

Media Tags are no longer supported

or this
Media Tags are no longer supported



Or all the others for that matter?
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 01:32 AM
You wrote....


I don't think you have them, and if you do then you have not read them.. opinion should be based on sound reason. The ills of the OT/Bible didn't happen with the Quran for reasons above..

8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

whereas in the Quran:

“Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Quran 15:9)
simply to sum it in a nut shell without going through the machination of that process (for the lazy)

This doesnt seem like an explanation to me.You agree that parts of the old testament are true but somehow God couldnt control the people that wrote it down?He started with the old testament but somehow couldnt get the job done so needed to trash it and start a whole new religion?
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 01:36 AM
Im unable to follow your reasoning.Maybe its the language barrier.Maybe someone else can answer my questions?
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 01:38 AM
I wrote you the short and long of it.. what 'seems to you' at this stage is a matter you are to deal with in your private time, as it isn't anything anyone can help :smile:

the OT/NT even if pertinent are revealed to a select few, they have no bearing on the rest and for the most part have been abrogated. NT as a whole can simply go back to the folks who conceived it.. god isn't about dancing in churches or eating pigs, or sins for that matter.. as for his alleged love and death.. well I think the history of Christianity speaks a different picture...


WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
Ancient Pagans


  • As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
  • Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
  • Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
  • Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
  • Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
  • Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
    According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
  • In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
  • In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
  • The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
    [DO19-25]

Mission


  • Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
  • Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
  • Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
  • 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
  • 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
    Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

Crusades (1095-1291)


  • First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
  • Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
  • 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
  • Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
  • after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
    Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
  • Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
  • Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
    (In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
  • The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
  • Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
  • Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
  • Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
  • Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224] Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

Heretics


  • Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
  • Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
  • Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
  • Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
  • subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
  • After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
  • Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
  • Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
  • Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
  • John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
  • University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
  • Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

Witches


  • from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
  • in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
  • incomplete list of documented cases:
    The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

Religious Wars


  • 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
  • 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
  • 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
  • 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
  • 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
  • 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
  • 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

Jews


  • Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
  • In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
  • 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
  • The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
  • First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
  • Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
  • Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
  • Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
  • 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
  • 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
  • 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
  • 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
  • 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
  • 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
  • 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
  • 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
  • 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.
Native Peoples


  • Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
  • Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
    While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
  • On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]
  • Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
  • In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
  • On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
  • The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
  • As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
  • The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
  • What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    "The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
  • The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
  • "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
  • Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
  • "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]

Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

  • Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
  • In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
    "Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
  • On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
  • When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
    Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
    The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
  • So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
  • Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
    "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
  • Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
  • Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
    In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
  • The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
  • Other tribes were to follow the same path.
  • Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
    "Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
  • Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
  • In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
  • In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
  • To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
  • All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
  • A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
  • In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

More Glorious events in US history


  • Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
  • Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
    From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
    More gory details.
  • By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

20th Century Church Atrocities


  • Catholic extermination camps
    Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

    In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
  • Catholic terror in Vietnam
    In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

    Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

    The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

    • "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....
  • Rwanda Massacres
    In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.

For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end....
References:

[DA] K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. [DO] K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987. [EC] P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985. [EJ] S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977. [LI] H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961. [MM] M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People. [MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992. [NC] J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992. [S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00. [SH] D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992. [SP] German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996. [TA] A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676. [TG] F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980. [WW] H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings). [WV] Estimates on the number of executed witches:

  • N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
  • R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
  • J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
  • H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56



alot of love there?

all the best
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 01:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN
Im unable to follow your reasoning.Maybe its the language barrier.Maybe someone else can answer my questions?


'im' is some sort of ill written contraction--'its' is the possessive form of "it"--

It must indeed be a language barrier.. here's to hoping someone comes to your rescue!

all the best
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
'im' is some sort of ill written contraction--'its' is the possessive form of "it"--

It must indeed be a language barrier.. here's to hoping someone comes to your rescue!

all the best
LOL.Is that sarcasm?

You seem to go off in all different directions so its hard to follow you.Its almost like you have things you want to say regardless if it has anything to do with the discussion.Thats why its hard to follow you.I thought it might be a language barrier but now I think that its just how you are.

As for your post of all christian atrocities,you cant blame christianity for what evil people do.They were acting contrary to what the bible teaches.
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 02:13 AM
well they were using your bible so who knows.. I'd lay low on the 'love' thing, not many people are buying into that..

Your questions have pretty much been addressed.. let's go about it systematically

1- you want to know why the Quran is preserved over its predecessors
we have shown you the painstaking process of its preservation.
It isn't made out of the dreams of Thomas or the sudden goodness of Paul or the visions of a Joan of Arc.. in fact the Quran can't be made at all comparable to the bible or previous..

if anything at all it can be compared to, it would be the hadith.. and even those come with rigorous Isnad and two levels of importance.. those that are hadith Qudsi and those that are nabwi..

2- How is it different, well you'd actually have to read it to appreciate it, you can't go by cliff notes (though in this case not even that much courtesy has been granted) and then come discuss the text

3- Islam is the religion of all people, not a select few.. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.. they for the most part denounced him and frankly after the gross misrepresentation in his name, one can't blame them..

a god doesn't change his mind about his commandments, they maybe amended but not thrown out the window all together.. god doesn't descend on women to annunciate himself, god doesnt impregnate women with his person, god doesn't d a m n the earth he allegedly created for not bearing him fruit (he should know where fruit is), god doesn't choose disciples who are ineffectual at best, I call your attention of course to the last supper where he told peter how would renounce him three times and three times he did.. I mean how bad a shape does god want to leave the world in at the hands of disciples clueless at best as he is about to self-immolate after he prayed to himself not to be forsaken the night previous in the garden of Gethsemane and decide later, he didn't have time to do it right so he inspired his word in his nemesis Saul to send humanity into deeper despair?

just a few points of why God would want to send things aright if at all..
Since I believe of course that God and Jesus are guiltless of what you've ascribed to both of them...

all the best
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
well they were using your bible so who knows.. I'd lay low on the 'love' thing, not many people are buying into that..

Your questions have pretty much been addressed.. let's go about it systematically

1- you want to know why the Quran is preserved over its predecessors
we have shown you the painstaking process of its preservation.
It isn't made out of the dreams of Thomas or the sudden goodness of Paul or the visions of a Joan of Arc.. in fact the Quran can't be made at all comparable to the bible or previous..

if anything at all it can be compared to, it would be the hadith.. and even those come with rigorous Isnad and two levels of importance.. those that are hadith Qudsi and those that are nabwi..

2- How is it different, well you'd actually have to read it to appreciate it, you can't go by cliff notes (though in this case not even that much courtesy has been granted) and then come discuss the text

3- Islam is the religion of all people, not a select few.. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.. they for the most part denounced him and frankly after the gross misrepresentation in his name, one can't blame them..

a god doesn't change his mind about his commandments, they maybe amended but not thrown out the window all together.. god doesn't descend on women to annunciate himself, god doesnt impregnate women with his person, god doesn't d a m n the earth he allegedly created for not bearing him fruit (he should know where fruit is), god doesn't choose disciples who are ineffectual at best, I call your attention of course to the last supper where he told peter how would renounce him three times and three times he did.. I mean how bad a shape does god want to leave the world in at the hands of disciples clueless at best as he is about to self-immolate after he prayed to himself not to be forsaken the night previous in the garden of Gethsemane and decide later, he didn't have time to do it right so he inspired his word in his nemesis Saul to send humanity into deeper despair?

just a few points of why God would want to send things aright if at all..
Since I believe of course that God and Jesus are guiltless of what you've ascribed to both of them...

all the best

1.My question wasnt how the Quran was preserved over its predecessors.Youve given me all kinds of evidence for why you believe the Quran is well preserved.The Quran relies on old testament traditions and prophets.My question is this.Why was God unable to control the people who wrote his bible.Why wasnt he able to have them write what he wanted and keep others from corrupting it?If the Quran bases its beliefs off a half true book,then Islam acknowledges that God himself began to write the bible but was unable to keep it from being corrupted.That causes a problem for all other writings because it makes it impossible to trust anything God reveals.If the Quran was not based off of the bible then I could understand your claims.But the Quran picks and chooses what parts of the bible its thinks are true.It even mimicks the bible in certain areas.The bible says that Jesus ascended into heaven.The Quran strangely copies this practice and Mohammed ascends into heaven.If the Quran claims the bible is incorrect,I find it strange that it mimicks something like this.If all the writing about Jesus are false,why would the Quran copy the ascention.Its like giving credit to a false document by copying it.

2.Look.It takes years and years just to fully grasp the bible.I have read some of the Quran.I will read more.Like I said.It revealed nothing new to me.Just more laws and repeats of the same things the bible says.There are differences.In some cases major differences.The main difference is that it claims the bible is corrupted and it establishes a new religion.Other than that I dont find anything new about it.

3.I dont know how to respond to this because it doesnt make much sense to me.Basically your claim is that you know God so well that he couldnt possibly do anything but what you believe he would do.I believe we shouldnt try to make God conform to what we think he should conform to.Wether or not God will self immolate or not is up to him to decide.Not human beings.That is your opinion.Gods ways are not our ways.
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN
1.My question wasnt how the Quran was preserved over its predecessors.Youve given me all kinds of evidence for why you believe the Quran is well preserved.The Quran relies on old testament traditions and prophets
Incorrect.. the Quran doesn't rely on Ot prophets or traditions..
prophets of God are indeed mentioned and such can one expect if the message came from the same God that every messenger would come bearing the same message, some had books, some didn't.. and that ultimately is what defines the difference between a messenger and prophets..



.My question is this.Why was God unable to control the people who wrote his bible.Why wasnt he able to have them write what he wanted and keep others from corrupting it?
It isn't God's job to preserve it, it is a job he delegates to the people.. The people that jesus came into, were reluctant to accept him, and those that accepted him needed to make him into some Greek mythology, Hercules/Zeus and a mortal woman type thing, and have indeed succeeded at it.. given the abrogation of all the OT laws.. further I have already shown you above that jesus was merely sent to a select few, rendering this entire conversation useless!


If the Quran bases its beliefs off a half true book,then Islam acknowledges that God himself began to write the bible but was unable to keep it from being corrupted.That causes a problem for all other writings because it makes it impossible to trust anything God reveals.
That is a non-sequiteur .. I have no idea how you reached that conclusion or even what it means.. see above!


If the Quran was not based off of the bible then I could understand your claims.But the Quran picks and chooses what parts of the bible its thinks are true.It even mimicks the bible in certain areas.The bible says that Jesus ascended into heaven.The Quran strangely copies this practice and Mohammed ascends into heaven.
Show me similarities between the Quran and the bible, and where exactly it copies.. I'd like the original greek manuscripts that Prophet Mohammed copied from or the alleged folks who whispered such laws in his ears?
you allege that jesus is god and that god died and went to be with whomever, the Quran makes no such claims..
Prophet Mohammed's ascension came with end of the world prophecies which are have and are proving true, I'd like to see similar prophecies from yours!

If the Quran claims the bible is incorrect,I find it strange that it mimicks something like this.If all the writing about Jesus are false,why would the Quran copy the ascention.Its like giving credit to a false document by copying it.
Now, you are really sounding like a broken record!
2.Look.It takes years and years just to fully grasp the bible.I have read some of the Quran.I will read more.Like I said.It revealed nothing new to me.Just more laws and repeats of the same things the bible says.There are differences.In some cases major differences.The main difference is that it claims the bible is corrupted and it establishes a new religion.Other than that I dont find anything new about it.
You haven't read the Quran-- it isn't merely enough to say 'I have read the Quran' if you want textual comparisons then by all means.. I am not going to sit and waste my time on your assertions and other drivel!

3.I dont know how to respond to this because it doesnt make much sense to me.Basically your claim is that you know God so well that he couldnt possibly do anything but what you believe he would do.I believe we shouldnt try to make God conform to what we think he should conform to.Wether or not God will self immolate or not is up to him to decide.Not human beings.That is your opinion.Gods ways are not our ways.
To put it in a nutshell.. I don't believe in the pagan gods of christianity. You worship a man named Jesus, you limit his being in all the ways I have listed in my previous post, he is foreign from the God of Moses, Abraham, Enoch, Luqman, Saleh and the rest.. certainly you are free to worship him.. as we are free to worship a non self-immolating god who is capable of choosing sane companions for the message he is entrusting to the world...

I have kind of tired of your rehtoric .. until such a time you actually have something of substance to discuss from the Quran can you have a debate.. until then, I am not big on discussing your feelings..

all the best
I
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-20-2009, 09:10 PM
The Qur'aan is no way a copy of the bible. It's constantly being changed for instance additions/substractions etc.

This thread should be closed. I see no progress other than on sis Gossamers side.
Reply

DovVN
06-20-2009, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
The Qur'aan is no way a copy of the bible. It's constantly being changed for instance additions/substractions etc.

This thread should be closed. I see no progress other than on sis Gossamers side.

Imagine that,a muslim taking a muslims side.Youre right.It isnt going anywhere.Its just shown me how blind all people are,except to their own narrow view.I dont claim to know for certain which religion is true or not.Theres way to much to consider and no one will really ever know.Even if they believe they do.People believe what they want to believe.Unfortunately with religion.God has left it up to reason to figure out which one is right.The problem is,everyone has different ways of coming to their conclusion.So its worthless in the end.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-20-2009, 10:07 PM
Imagine that,a muslim taking a muslims side.
Yea imagine that :rollseyes

All you've been doing is repeating yourself over and over even after she replied to you in several different ways, not to mention repeating the same misinformation. The only narrow view I see is yours, considering you keep clinging to the same drivel. How many answers do you want or are u just trying to toy with us?

People believe what they want to believe.Unfortunately with religion.
More so with disbelief, it's no different.

Its just shown me how blind all people are, except to their narrow
view.

Allah has sealed the hearts of those who are bent on nothing but to reject.

Surah Baqarah, verses 6 to 7

"As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them Whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)."

You asked several questions, mind u trying to get past your grammar. They've been answered, take it or leave it!
Reply

aamirsaab
06-20-2009, 10:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN
...Theres way to much to consider and no one will really ever know.
I'll make it easy for you: Islam is the right path.

The problem is,everyone has different ways of coming to their conclusion.So its worthless in the end.
Only worthless if you take the wrong path; many wrong paths and only one right: Islam.

I made it easy for you so don't reply back with something sarky.
Reply

جوري
06-20-2009, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN
Imagine that,a muslim taking a muslims side.Youre right.It isnt going anywhere.Its just shown me how blind all people are,except to their own narrow view.I dont claim to know for certain which religion is true or not.Theres way to much to consider and no one will really ever know.Even if they believe they do.People believe what they want to believe.Unfortunately with religion.God has left it up to reason to figure out which one is right.The problem is,everyone has different ways of coming to their conclusion.So its worthless in the end.

Maybe indeed on an islamic forum, you'll get the Muslim point of view?..
but I believe we have already presented you with what is unappealing about Christianity.. you say, we don't know what is god is capable of.. well for centuries folks brought god to a low common denominator that fit with their circumstantial psychology. I don't see how a man/god is different from the hindu elephant god..and you can't really comment on the Islamic view given you are very ignorant on its basic tenets.


The most basic christian tenet is accepting that jesus is god and he descended to eat our sins--What is the point of that? why work toward goodness at all if god ate your sins in advance, why would god assume shape at all in order to eat your sins? the human condition is limited, why would god descend, leave the cosmos behind choose inept individuals to disseminate his message and then die?

in fact you are right is should be left up to reason and I have already wrote you as much in my first or second post. Religion should satisfy three criteria!

The Mind, the heart and the soul as in fulfill that spiritual void -- Christianity fails on all three of those...

all the best
Reply

brotherubaid
06-21-2009, 07:55 AM
Bro Quraan has been memorised and there is only one quraan , even after 1500 years , God revealed it in such a way that it is soo easy to memorise and each verse is like embedded in the next verse so that no one can ever change it , it would just not make any sense if any changes were made, plus God in Quran has openely challanged that if All of mankind and even the demons were to come together to bring a scripture like quran they will not be able to do so, not even a chapter. No one has been able to do so.

Quran clears out all the doubts , all the mistakes , and confirms that indeed bible and torah and other books were sent by God, Jesus was sent by God and he himself was made a miracle to the children of israel , God created him without a father , and he spoke in the cradle and all other miracles given to jesus , quran confirms them , We belive in All , in everything , every prophet , jacob , joseph , noah , david , solomon u Name it!! Quran gives detail of it all while on the other hand Christian world cannot come up with One true bible , Why?? coz it was not cared for and not saved , so we have liek a 50 bibles if im not mistaken , with difrent contents and even contradictions.

While quran is one , God saved it and it wil remain in the hearts and chestes of the memoriswers, little kids as young as 5 and 7 yrs have memorised it, All muslims are agreed upon the quran and no matter where u go , any mosque and group of muslim u will find the same quran with them , Which is the biggest proof of it being safe and free of any changes whatsoever, coz its One and the same all over the world, on the other hand we dont have that with the bible , each church has its own , WHICH ONE IS THE REAL ONE ?? HOW CAN ONE TELL AND KNOW THAT?? EVERYONE CLAIMS THAT HIS BIBLE IS THE TRUE BIBLE.

Cant u clearly see , on one hand u have one book with billions of folowers, unchanged , untampered with , and on the other hand u have all these bibkes with diffrent text , and contradictions .. its simple .. its obvious that the word Revealed by God was changed , tampered with and not saved by the folowers.


The christian doctrine The doctrine was introduced centuries after the supposed fact. It had to be developed, because it did not exist in the Bible to begin with. The Roman Emperor, an essentially pagan man, forced his opinion and followed his desire. By cutting the number of gods down to three, he may have thought that it would be more comforting to pagan Europeans rather than making the many gods into only one god. He did not develop the doctrine himself, so it seems. He forced it on the empire, because it appealed to his pagan origins and pagan subjects. Jesus was not his main concern, peace and harmony in his kingdom was.


Had there been texts from the Bible that answer the question of Trinity, do you think the empire would have needed councils to develop what is not developed? I am amazed at you. You agree to this basic fact, that the doctrine was developed in the 4th century. By doing so, you also agreed that before the 4th century, the doctrine was NOT developed. This is because it did not exist, as these encylopedias assert,


The New Encyclopedia Britannica: ‘Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4).’


The Encyclopedia Americana: ‘Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person] ... Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.’


The New Catholic Encyclopedia: ‘The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century...Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.’


Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: ‘In the New Testament we do not find the doctrine of the Trinity in anything like its developed form, not even in the Pauline and Johannine theology.’


Encyclopedia International: ‘The doctrine of the Trinity did not form part of the apostles’ preaching, as this is reported in the New Testament.’


Dictionary of the Bible: ‘The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief.’


The Oxford Companion to the Bible: ‘...the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon ... no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do.’


Here is an article by Jalal Abulrub , he is answring an arab christian

I thank you for your email and hope that this discussion brings about benefit.


First: All thanks to Allah, I am well versed in the Bible, in Arabic and English, and have read and studied it since I was young. I am also well acquainted with the major Christian sects, including the Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Coptics, Maronites, etc. I lived in Egypt and used to hear Coptic leaders speak in their religious ceremonies, including the church’s leader Shunoda, and frequently listened to and witnessed Coptic religious gatherings and prayers. I also translated two books on Christian dogmas and major Christian sects detailing their history and the major differences between them.


Second: I read numerous articles and books discussing the claimed divinity of Jesus (Prophet Esa), peace be upon him. Yet, I still have a major problem regarding this topic. If you ask me what the core of my faith is, plain and simple and without interpretation, I will describe each major aspect of it with just one Ayah. Examples:


1. Who is Allah? {Allâh, your Lord! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa, the Creator of all things}; [6:102].


2. Who is Muhammad, peace be upon him, and what is his nature? {Muhammad is the Messenger of Allâh}; [48:29], whom Allah ordered to say, {“I am only a human being like you”}; [41:6].


3. Who is Esa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) and what is his nature? Allah said that Prophet Esa said, {“Verily, I am a slave of Allâh, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet”…It befits not Allâh that He should beget a son. Glorified be He}; [19:30 & 35].


4. Is trinity a valid creed? Allah ordered Prophet Muhammad, salla-llahu alaihi wa-sallam, to say this: {“He is Allâh, One. Allâh‑us‑Samad (Who sustains everything and stands in need of no one). He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none co‑equal or comparable unto Him”}; [112:1-4]. Or, you may refer to this Ayah where Allah said this about trinity, {Disbelievers are those who said: “Allâh is the third of the three.” But there is no Ilâh but One Ilâh. And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them}; [5:73].


Thus, Muslims can easily explain their Islamic Faith using clear, plain, unequivocal and un-interpreted evidence, one Ayah per each aspect. If you ask Jesus about his faith, the same faith described in the Old Testament, his answer is plain and clear, “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord”; [Mark 12:29-30].


If one asks any Christian about the core of the faith that makes one Christian, one will not find a single biblical text quoting any prophet before Jesus, especially Nu`h (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), or Musa (Moses), or Prophet Esa (Jesus) himself that, without interpretation, affirms any part of the Christian dogma, such as: Jesus is divine; Jesus created the world; trinity is a valid creed; god has begotten or will beget a son; the Holy Ghost is the lord; Jesus demanded his worship; Jesus was sent to atone for the sins of mankind by his dying on the cross; Adam’s sin is inherited by every one among his offspring. No Christian can prove that Jesus ever said these words, “People! I created you; worship me; I am divine; god is one-in-three and three-in-one; you all inherited Adam’s sin; I came to die on the cross to atone for your sins; I am your lord and savior.” All what Christians can bring are statements by people who came after Jesus, who never met Jesus and who can never quote a single statement from Jesus –or any other prophet before him- affirming either partially or totally the creed they invented. All what Christians bring are interpretations of vague biblical texts, none of which is in its original form or language, and claims that these texts mean this or that, without clear evidence. No two Christian sects can ever agree on the details of any part of the Christian creed. Prophet Moses never heard of the Christian faith and has never preached it; Prophet Abraham never heard of the Christian faith and has never preached it; Prophet Jesus never heard of the Christian faith and has never preached it; Adam never heard of the Christian faith and has never preached it; the Torah never heard of the Christian faith and has never preached it. All what I hear from the Christians whom I debate on this core issue of their faith, is that they refer me to this article or that book that, they claim, prove Jesus’ divinity. And when I read this article and that book I find no clear, unequivocal evidence. Nothing! Just references to numerous biblical verses that are interpreted in a certain way to mean this or that, added to other biblical verses that are also interpreted to mean this or that, where the author concludes by proving Jesus’ divinity using this utterly vague evidence. Yet, even on these vague biblical texts that are interpreted at will to mean whatever various Christian sects wish them to mean, no two Christian sects totally agree on their meaning or on any other aspect of Christianity, including trinity and the nature of Jesus. Each Christian sect declares that theirs –and theirs alone- is the true Christian faith and the true interpretation of biblical texts. Christian Arabs do not even call Esa by his European name ‘Jesus’, but by his Arab [and true] name ‘`Esa’, or by another name they invented: ‘Yasu`; they do not use the word ‘god’ to describe the Creator, but the Creator’s true name ‘Allah’. Add to this another fact that no man can change: the Christians and Jews do not have access to the original books contained in the Bible in the original language they were written in. If the Christian creed is the creed to follow, why did not Jesus say so in the clearest of terms –and then safeguarded his statement from corruption- so that all of mankind be able to read and understand it without needing any interpretation? If Christians have even one statement from al-Maseeh (the Messiah) wherein he calls to his worship or affirms trinity, they would have made this statement apparent for all of mankind to read and see. This is the core of the Christian faith. Christians should not need articles or books to prove it; only one verse is enough to prove each edict, just one clear verse.


Third: Surely, the Quran contains praise of Prophet Esa, alaihi as-salam. However, the Quran clearly describes Prophet Esa to be a human prophet, not divine, rejects trinity and refutes the worship of Jesus in the most-clear terms and denies that Allah has a son or a partner to Him in the lordship or the worship. The Quran also praises several prophets more than it praises Prophet Esa and mentions miracles they performed that are as unique and, in some instances, greater than the miracles that Prophet Esa (Jesus) performed, by Allah’s permission. The Quran praises Prophets Ibrahim (Abraham) and Musa (Moses), peace be upon them, more than it praises Prophet Esa (Jesus), peace be upon him. The Quran praises Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, more than it praises any other prophet and mentions some of the miracles he performed, by Allah’s permission, that are greater than the miracles Prophet Esa performed, by Allah’s permission. Example: the splitting of the moon witnessed by the Makkans and surrounding towns [as al-Bukhari reported]: {The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder}; [54:1]. Thus, the fact that the Quran praises Prophet Esa as he should be praised, peace be upon him, and mentions the unique miracles he performed, by Allah’s permission, do not support the Christian claim that Jesus was divine. For the Quran’s praise of Jesus to justify the Christian faith in his divinity, the Quran must clearly state that Jesus is divine, that Allah is one in trinity, that Jesus is Allah’s begotten son. The Quran rejects this false dogma in the clearest of terms and declares it as utter disbelief in Allah. The Quran also rejects the Christian idea of the ‘Original Sin’, {No burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another}; [53:38].


Fourth: Muslims indeed have great passion for Islam, but not because they are naive or overcome by emotion. Rather, they are passionate about Islam because the Islamic Faith is the true faith; Muslims totally believe in Islam based on knowledge and evidence. Muslims are much more aware of Islam than most Christians are aware of Christianity. Muslims know much more about other religions than average Christians know about other religions. Muslims read the Quran every day in their life, as you –the questioner- very well know since you hear Quran recited aloud three times a day from the loudspeakers of the thousands of Masjids found in Cairo, let alone hearing it being recited while walking in the streets and riding buses, on the airwaves and during the nights of Ramadan. Muslims have access to innumerable scholarly books that explain every part of the Quran and Sunnah supported by clear evidence. Many Muslims are more learned about the Bible than the majority of common-folk Christians know about their own holy book: most practicing Christians only hear the parts of their Bible that their priests choose to recite to them during religious ceremonies. Christians do not recite every part of the Bible numerous times every month or even every year. In contrast, the Quran is found wherever Muslims go, especially in their hearts: hundreds of thousands of Muslims memorize the entire Quran by heart; hundreds of millions of Muslims memorize at least a part of it. Thus, Muslims know their Islam very well; they know their Quran and their Muhammad so well that they developed a passion for them that is unsurpassed in its depth: visit Muslims in China, Indonesia, India, Turkey, any Arab country, North or South America, Europe, or Australia and compare the copies of the Quran they have to each other and you will know they all are exactly the same. This is not only passion, but also scientific precision in its most beautiful form.


Fifth: Muslims do believe that the Quran abrogates the bible. However, I did not mention this issue at all in my previous correspondence nor was I going to mention it in our discussion, unless the topic is on the status of the Quran as compared to the Torah and the Injil, or on the corruption of the Bible and how we –Muslims- can prove it occurred. The Quran is Allah’s Last and Final Revelation; it abrogates earlier divine books and corrects the parts in them that were corrupted and changed. You may say, “I do not believe in the Quran, so how can you prove that the Quran is correct regarding the Bible being corrupted?” I may then mention at least one story of a prophet whose image was distorted in the Bible and compare it to the Quran’s version, which refutes the clear biblical lies about Allah’s Prophets and affirms their honor and obedience to Allah. I may also refer you to the numerous articles and books written by Christian authors stating that the Bible was changed and altered, or to the numerous biblical texts that clearly contradict each other. Example: the appearance and disappearance of this, a major Biblical verse and a foundation of Christianity, between the Standard and the KJV versions of the Bible, [KJV's 1 John 5:7], "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Even the versions of the Bible that kept this verse almost intact translate it differently, especially the last part of it: "…and these three are one"; "…and the three agree as one"; "…and the three agree in one." I may also refer you to the fact that Bible scholars have always disagreed with each other regarding who wrote most of the books contained in the Bible and in which language and time-frame they were written. There is more evidence found in Christian writings to affirm the corruption of the Bible than one can read in a lifetime.


Sixth: The claim that there are distorted stories from the Bible found in the Quran is rather strange. Well, Muslims truly believe the complete opposite, that there are numerous distorted stories in the Bible written by unknown authors which the Quran corrects. I mean come on! Do you seriously think that you are a faithful believer while Prophet Sulaiman (Solomon) died as an idol worshipper? Do you want to convince me that you are more pure and clean than Prophet Lut (Lot), who not only got drunk, but also committed Zina (adultery) with his own daughters, who got pregnant and gave birth to sons with their own father? No Muslim will ever believe that he or she is more pure and clean that Prophet Lut or that he or she is faithful while Prophet Sulaiman died a disbeliever. And the Bible does not even mention if Lot asked his daughters who the father is. What is the moral lesson to gain from this biblical story? What moral values would you teach your daughter from what Prophet Lut is falsely accused of doing? Would you even allow your daughter to read this filthy story, let alone believe that it is the word of god? You desperately need the Quran to correct this manifest error, because the Quran was revealed to, among many other reasons, correct this massive slander against Allah’s Honorable Prophets; {Sulaimân did not disbelieve, but the Shayâtîn (devils) disbelieved}; [2:102]; {There was no other answer given by his people, except that they said: “Drive out the family of Lût from your city; verily, these are a people who want to be clean and pure”}; [27:56].


Seventh: As for the repetition in the Quran, the wisdom behind it is clear to those who read the Quran with care, as we will explain, Allah willing. There are numerous instances of repetition in the Bible, with clear variations among them, in addition to entire books that repeat the census of the Children of Israel counting their tribes, sub-tribes, families, children, cattle and everything that pertains to the Children of Israel. There is no benefit for mankind in these stories. Allah’s revealed Books are books of guidance, not records of censuses or a count of the sheep the Children of Israel had. Allah did create other men and women and did send prophets to other nations: {And (both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are the children of Allâh and His loved ones.” Say: “Why then does He punish you for your sins?” Nay, you are but human beings of those He has created, He forgives whom He wills and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them; and to Him is the return (of all). O, People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad) making (things) clear unto you}; [5:18-19]? And not only one, but four different Gospels narrate the same story of the same man, even though they contradict each other in many parts of these narratives that were written by unknown authors, as many Christian scholars admit. Thus, it seems bizarre that Christians forget all these facts about their holy book and criticize repeated stories in the Quran.


Every repetition in the Quran serves a beneficial purpose, either offering more details or specific moral values to learn. The Quran is also called ‘Adh-Dhikr’, which means, ‘The Reminder’. The reminder is repeated in various ways so that the moral value it teaches remains present and alive in the believer’s heart and mind. Every instance of repetition in the Quran uses the most eloquent Arabic speech and different ways to describe the same meaning. Thus, if this criticism comes from a non-Arab, I may attribute this to the fact that this person does not have a clue as to what he is talking about. Coming from an Arab, this criticism is not acceptable, especially when no example is being discussed.


Eighth: Just like the Bible, the Quran contains abrogation. If Christians mention this topic, they should immediately be asked this: what happened to the law god revealed to Moses, such as stoning the adulterer? Christians have done away with most of the Law of the Torah, which Prophet Jesus abided by. Thus, it amazes me that this topic is even mentioned; you do know the Arab saying, “Ramat-ni bi-da-iha wan-sallati”!


Example to Quranic abrogation: the Khamr (intoxicants). Allah allowed Muslims to continue drinking the Khamr in the early era of Islam, as they were heavy drinkers before Islam, but gradually prohibited it for them until it was completely outlawed. I am not confused about intoxicants, because more than 14 centuries before I was born and since the early era of Islam in Madinah, Khamr has been outlawed for every Muslim. Where is the confusion? You must have been reading claims of abrogation in the Quran that are not based on the Quran or Sunnah, the two resources of Islam. Various major scholars of Islam have discounted the correctness of many of these claims due to lack of evidence. So bring an example to an abrogation that confused you and we will discuss it, Allah willing.


Ninth: The concept of ‘personal god’ did not come from Allah; it is not found in the Bible either. Prophets Nu`h, Ibrahim, Musa and Esa did not speak of this concept. Yet, I want to ask you, since you said you read the Quran, what do you mean by saying that Allah is not the ‘personal god’? Have you not read in the Quran that Allah will forgive all sins if one sincerely repents from them, {So, glorify the Praises of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness. Verily, He is the One Who accepts the repentance and Who forgives}; [110:3]? Allah informed His creation that He is near to them by His knowledge and infinite forgiveness, {And when My slaves ask you (O, Muhammad) concerning Me, then I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me. So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright}; [2:186]. Allah informed His creation that they should never feel hopelessness in His Mercy, {Say: “O ‘Ibâdî (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh, verily, Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful}; [39:53]. Allah told His creation by the words of His Messenger, peace be upon him, that His Mercy has overcome His Anger; [al-Bukhari]. The doors to Allah’s forgiveness and mercy are always open to His creation, without intermediaries between Him and them; how more personal can the relationship between creation and Allah be?


In contrast, there is no denying that the god of the Bible is not the ‘personal god’ to the vast majority of Christians: they go to a sinner like them, a priest who cannot forgive his own sins, so that he forgives their sins for them. Instead, they should directly invoke Allah, without intermediaries, and only ask Him for forgiveness. The god of the Bible [i.e., the false image of god that the Bible propagates] is not a ‘personal god’; he cannot bear the thought of mankind gaining knowledge “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”; [Genesis 3:22].


In Islam, Allah is described as being jealous, but for an entirely different explanation. Allah is Ghayyur (protective, jealous) that He dislikes for His male and female slaves to dishonor themselves by committing adultery, so He outlawed adultery and fornication. Allah did not only grant men knowledge {He has taught man that which he knew not}; [96:5], but also ordered them to invoke Him for more knowledge, {Say: “My Lord! Increase me in knowledge”}; [20:114].


Tenth: The concept of Allah needing to come down to earth in the shape of a human to feel what humans feel is not a concept that the Torah of Musa, the Injil of Esa or the Quran of Muhammad speak of. It is another Christian invention that Jesus never uttered while living on this earth. In Islam, Allah is the All-Knowing, Who has perfect knowledge in the creation and all that pertains to them, {Should not He Who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All‑Aware (of everything)}; [67:14]; and, {I (Allah) know the Ghaib (Unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing}; [2:33]; and, {With Him (Allah) are the keys of the Ghaib (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in the land and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but He knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record}; [6:59]. The mere claim that Allah needs to come down to taste what man tastes demeans His perfect knowledge and describes Him with a shortcoming and a clear defect. Christians say that Jesus is all knowing, but apparently they do not believe in this false statement since they claim that he –being their lord and savior- needed to come down to earth in the shape of a human to live like a man, feel what humans feel and then be executed for their sins, which he did not commit. If Jesus is all knowing, the lord and savior as Christians claim, then, he does not need to come down in the shape of human to learn about what it feels to be human, because he already knows it. Add this to the fact that Christians claim that their lord and savior was spat on, humiliated, cursed and put to death on the cross by the hand of some of his creation; this is not glory but utter humiliation and disgrace. How can Jesus save anyone if he could not save his own self from death and humiliation? However, and as the Bible clearly states, Jesus had no idea that he was supposed to die on the cross so that the Christians can sin all they want; “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”; [Matthew 27:46]. Of course, Jesus did not die on the cross; this is a fantasy created by Christians.


Islam describes Allah differently than the Bible. Allah is the Most Pure, free from defect. It does not befit the majesty of Allah that some Jewish disbelievers spit on Him and some Roman infidels crucify Him; glorified He is above His Throne, the All-Mighty, Owner of Honor and Power.


Eleventh: The concept of Allah ready to ‘smite us’, is simply not true. Those who read the Quran with care will read this wonderful description of Allah, {Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)! Is not He Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water)? Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Nay, but most of them know not! Is not He Who responds to the distressed one, when he calls on Him, and Who removes the evil, and makes you inheritors of the earth, generations after generations? Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Little is that you remember! Is not He Who guides you in the darkness of the land and the sea, and Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain)? Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? High Exalted be Allâh above all that they associate as partners (to Him)! Is not He Who originates creation, and shall thereafter repeat it, and Who provides for you from heaven and earth? Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Say: “Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful”}; [27:60-64]. Allah forgives the sins, including disbelief in Him if one repents from it in this life, {Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful}; [39:53]. Allah is the Merciful; He delays the punishment of disbelievers in Him if they still invoke Him for forgiveness, {And Allâh would not punish them while you (Muhammad) are amongst them, nor will He punish them while they seek (Allâh’s) forgiveness}; [8:33]. Allah describes Himself in the Quran, by saying, {And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of mercy}; [18:58]; and, {Verily, Allâh is, for mankind, full of kindness, Most Merciful}; [22:65].


Therefore, if the topic is Allah’s Mercy as described in the Quran and how wide and encompassing it is, then, these are the Ayat to bring not the Ayat about punishing the disbelievers. If the topic is Allah’s punishment that He sends down on the disbelievers, then, there are Ayat that discuss this topic. It is not acceptable that one quotes parts of the Quran on treatment of disbelievers in Allah in the context of speaking about Allah’s Mercy and Forgiveness. I can do the same to the Bible.


According to Christians, Jesus is the lord of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. However, there is a drastic difference between the two ‘personalities’ or ‘manifestations’. The Bible describes the god of the Old Testament as being ever ready to smite those who defy him, ordering the extermination of entire cities, men, women, children and animals, “slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass”; [Samuel 15:3], and destroying entire cities because they committed the crime of sodomy; [Genesis 19]. The Old Testament describes god as a vengeful god: “To me belongeth vengeance”; [Deuteronomy 32:35]”. The reverts from the faith who say, “Let us go and serve other gods”, are treated like this, “Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth…Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.” [Deuteronomy 13:12-16]. The god of the Old Testament has reportedly destroyed an Ethiopian army consisting of one million-soldiers; they all perished in one day [Chronicles 14]. [I am merely describing what the Bible says here].


Then suddenly, a new personality emerges in the New Testament, a weak god who needs to eat, sleep and relieve the call of nature, who allows his creation to humiliate and crucify him. Christians celebrate describing this ‘personality’ as ‘the prince of peace’ who, it seems, has now acquired a drastically new vision of the world, man and suffering. Was it because he came down in the shape of a human, and thus, tasted how it feels to be human? The Christians who may offer such a false excuse will in fact be admitting that the Jesus of the Old Testament was ignorant in the nature of man and so bloodthirsty that he caused tremendous killing of men, women, children, ox, donkeys and sheep. On his part, the ‘prince of peace’ contradicted the Christian description of him, by saying, “Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword”; [Matthew 10:34].


Of course, all this is a false fantasy dreamt up by those who corrupted the Old Testament and the New Testament, inserting their own prejudices and opinions. To correct all these erroneous descriptions of Allah, mankind needs the Quran, which describes Allah as He should be described, and He is the All-Mighty, Most Merciful.


It seems that you heard of the fact that knowledgeable Muslims always feel hope in Allah and fear from His Might in their hearts. However, you only mentioned a half of this Islamic creed, especially as demonstrated by the next segment.


Twelfth: Who are these Muslims who fear both practicing and not-practicing Islam? It would be interesting to discover how they arrived at this utter nonsense.


Muslims worship Allah because He is the only deity worthy of worship, Who created and sustains everything, Who saves man from harm and grants him of every type of bounty and comfort. The best delight to Muslims is that they feel when they worship their Lord, invoke Him for all things good and righteous, especially residence in Paradise under the shade of His Throne, and seek refuge with Him from all types of harm and sin, especially from Hellfire. It simply pleases Muslims to please Allah, worship Him and humble themselves before Him. Muslims also strive hard not to sin, because this is an act of injustice to Allah, Who gave them everything, and also for fear of His Might, afraid that they might end up in Hell forever if they worship others besides Allah. You completely spoiled this honorable creed by making Muslims worship Allah because they are afraid of Him rather than because they hope in His Mercy, appreciate His endless favors on them and wish to enter His Paradise, {Those whom they call upon [like ‘Îsâ (Jesus) ‑ son of Maryam (Mary), ‘Uzair (Ezra), angel and others] desire (for themselves) means of access to their Lord (Allâh), as to which of them should be the nearest; and they hope for His Mercy and fear His Torment}; [17:57].


Thirteenth: The only true peace there is, is that achieved through the true worship of Allah, Alone without partners, and by fulfilling one’s duty to Him as much as possible, {It is those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh and worship none but Him Alone) and confuse not their Belief with wrong (they do not worship others besides Allâh), for them (only) there is security and they are the guided}; [6:82]. This is the peace that extends from this life to the Hereafter, the peace that only true Muslims enjoy. How can you possibly dismiss this peace when you have not tasted it yet by saying, “La ilaha illa-llah, muhammadun rasulu-llah”?


In contrast, the Christians are in doubt of their faith. They differ bitterly on the very nature of the god they worship and on every other tenet of Christianity. They worship a man like them who never called on them to worship him. They are never quite sure where their creed came from, differing on the meaning and accuracy of every text, every book and every claimed author of every book contained in the Bible. They do not have unequivocal evidence to support any of the ideas they believe in. They only have interpretations on translations on vague texts written by unknown authors in an unknown language and time-frame. Thus, many Christians came to ask themselves this question: what if all this I believe in is based on nothing? Millions of Christians left Christianity and embraced other religions, mainly Islam. They include the best the Christian world has to offer: the educated; ex-practicing Christians; ex-priests; the un-educated –as people perceive them to be- who are truly brilliant since they recognize and embrace the truth (Islam); men and women; black and white; young and old.


In contrast, reverts from Islam are the worst ‘Muslims’ ever: those who never truly understood the religion or practiced it; the opportunists who seek money, immigration, fame, medicine, or education; the hypocrite and useless who will abandon Christianity to any other material opportunity that may present itself to them.


If you seek peace, then believe in Allah the way Prophets Abraham and Moses believed in Him; this is the true peace; this is Islam.


Fourteenth: The Christian concept of ‘god loving the creation’ has always intrigued me. I repeatedly ask Christians this simple question: according to the Christian scriptures, what fate awaits more than four-fifth of humanity who, today and for most of history, did not, do not and will not believe in Jesus as the lord as savior? When they die, will the Christian god love them enough to enter them into heaven even though they did not believe in his claimed son as their lord and savior, or in trinity, or any other Christian dogma? Where is the biblical text that answers these questions?


You have not read the Quran with care. Have you read this Ayah, {And We have sent you (O Muhammad) not but as a mercy for the ‘Âlamîn (all that exists)}; [21:107], or the many Ayat that describe Allah as, {the Most Merciful}? Allah’s care and mercy for mankind is evident in the fact that He sent to every nation a prophet to guide them to Allah and, ultimately, to Paradise. He is Patient and Merciful with disbelievers that if one repents to Him after decades of disbelief, He accepts the sincere repentance and forgives all sins. He is also patient with those who live in His Kingdom, enjoy the food and air He created for them yet thank someone else besides Him for these bounties: He sent Muhammad to them to guide them back to the worship of Allah, Alone, without partners. This is mercy in its utmost beauty.


Fifteenth: Muslims, just like Jews and Christians, have divided into sects; this is a defect that has no valid excuse. However, and in contrast to the Bible, the Quran clearly rejects sectarianism and ordains unity around the Quran and Sunnah, {And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allâh, and be not divided among yourselves}; [3:103]. Yet, all Muslim sects agree that Allah is One, Prophet Muhammad is the Messenger of Islam and Prophet Esa is not divine. Are there two Christian sects that agree with each other in the details of any major edict of the Christian religion?


Finally: Read the Quran with care; ask about what you do not understand of it; listen to it with an open heart. Then, whatever you decide is your choice and you alone will be responsible for it; sin is never inherited but is always acquired.


Thank you for listening and hope to hear from you soon Inshaallah- jalal Abu Al Rub


I will strongly recommend u read These articles if u truly seek the truth

VALIDITY OF BIBLE AS AN AUTHENTIC SOURCE
pART 1 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=222
PART 2 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=223
PART3 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=224
PART4 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=226
Reply

YusufNoor
06-22-2009, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN
First of all I dont mean any offense with my questions.They are legitimate concerns.

MAYBE, but your reasonings are bogus!

If the bible is wrong then how can you have any confidence that the Quran is correct?

well grasshopper, they are 2 completely different books, the bible being the work of men and the Qur'an a direct revelation from the One True God.

If the bible is wrong then God isnt capable of presenting a book that says what he wants it to.

there's NO LOGIC to that statement, if the One True God wants a book to be preserved, then IT IS PRESERVED!

He has to worry that somewhere along the lines a sinful human will put something in there that is untrue.If he couldnt do it the first time then how can you think he could do it the second time with the Quran?

EVEN Christians don't claim the bible is the direct word of God!

From what I know,the Quran is based off the old testament.

then you DON'T know, because that is an incorrect statement!

However,muslims say that there were errors in it so God had to rewrite another book?

the One True God ALLOWED earlier revelations to be changed. THEY ARE CHANGED, therefore if He didn't allow it, then He isn't the One True God!

What happens when someone else comes along and says that the Quran is incorrect and writes a third book?

it's NOT what men say, it is what the One True God says that matters.

That gives the Quran nothing to stand on.

you mean based on all of your faulty arguments?

Just the fact that muslims claim that most of the old testament is true,

we DON'T claim that!

makes me think that the Quran isnt true because of the above arguement.It doesnt make sense.

YOU are the one not making any sense, Skippy!

Another thing that makes no sense to me is that Muslims claim Jesus was a prophet but not who he claimed to be.If he was just a prophet,then what did he do?It seems to me that all he did was mislead millions of people into believeing in him and not much of anything else.

Jesus was raised to heaven at the time he had about 12 male followers and some women, why do YOU blame him for deceiving millions?

That would make him the most evil prophet that ever lived.

WHY, he didn't spread the lies?

Why would God make a prophet who would do that?

again, you're NOT paying attention.

And by saying that Jesus was a prophet,the Quran acknowledges that the New Testament is somewhat true and that God was unable to control what was written in his own Word.

that is a non sequitor, other than Paul, most of the writers of the New Testament are unknown. IF the One True God wanted us to know who wrote them we would know!

Also,I dont see what writing the Quran accomplished anyways.I havent read as much as I should have but it doesnt seem to present anything new.

and you know this because you haven't read it...

What it does is establishes a different religion.

and you know this because you haven't read it?

It seems plain to me that the God of the Old testament and the Quran are different.

you know, many Christians say the same thing about the OT god and the NT God!

The God of the bible is about love.

that's why he killed all but 8 people on the planet according to your bible. that must be tough love, eh?

The God of Islam is about following rules and laws.The God of the bible never intended for us to live like that forever.

why did you add forever, are you saying that he did at one time?

Only till Jesus came and sacraficed himself to pay for our sins.

there is no contemporaneous proof of that.

Islam is still living under law and not love.

and you know this because you've never studied it!?

Heres a question.Pretend you live your life as a Muslim and your good deeds outweigh your bad.You go to heaven right?Now what was your motivation to do good?It was for the reward of heaven.Or maybe you feared going to hell.Those arent good reasons to do good.Those arent good reasons to follow God.If you arent doing good out of love for God then you are sinning in doing good because it is only for selfish gain.Allah says if you dont do this or that I will burn you in hell.Even if you never sinned,what would that benefit Allah?The link between doing good and Allahs approval doesnt make sense to me.With the bible it is different.Humans are incapable of doing good.Even in doing good they have selfish motivations.The bible says people cannot do any good apart from God.You dont earn your way into heaven by doing good.You go to heaven by accepting Jesus as your savior and then do good in return because you love him and want to obey.Doing good and following laws to get into heaven has it all backwards.Thats a dreary relationship.A relationship based on fear and punishment.
your question makes no sense! you are claiming all that you are about Jesus, in order to save your arse from the hellfire, which according to you, is not acceptable.

i can see why you are confused!

oh, and to answer your big question: is the bible wrong?

YES, it is!

:w:
Reply

brotherubaid
06-22-2009, 01:36 PM
Let me suggest this once again.

VALIDITY OF BIBLE AS AN AUTHENTIC SOURCE
pART 1 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=222
PART 2 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=223
PART3 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=224
PART4 http://islamlife.com/news.php?readmore=226
Reply

Muhaba
06-22-2009, 06:49 PM
You want to know why God sent the bible, then couldn't keep it from being corrupted so had to send another book. First you should answer, why did God say one thing for centuries (about His being one, having no partners, never talking about Jesus being His son or the trinity, etc) and then all of a sudden with the coming of Jesus, God supposedly changed His mind (according to Christians) and told us about the trinity? How come Prophet Moses or David or Abraham (A.S) or any of the other Prophets never told the people about the trinity? Why did the trinity start with Jesus? An entity's nature doesn't change. Either God was always One or He was always three-in-one. It can't be that for centuries God is One and no one heard of a combination of God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost and with the coming of Jesus He became three-in-one. One of those beliefs must be wrong. both can't be true. Either all the prophets before Jesus had it wrong or the bible (NT) and the apostles like paul had it wrong. Which do you think is right? the Prophets and messengers before Jesus or the people after Jesus?

About why God didn't preserve the bible but preserved the Quraan: The reason is that He had the plan to send many prophets before Prophet Muhammad (SAW) so He didn't have to preserve their books. Every time a book was lost or corrupted, God sent another prophet with a new book - a great mercy of God on the people. But since Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the last and final prophet and the Quraan is the final revelation, God preserved it (because no other book will be revealed after it).

You ask "What happens when someone else comes along and says that the Quran is incorrect and writes a third book?" Well, God says in the Quraan over and over, that if you think the Quraan isn't from God, then bring a book like it or a chapter or even a single verse like the verses of the Quraan. This challenge still stands - why don't you bring a book equal to the Quraan to show that the Quraan isn't from God. The fact is, there can never be another book equal to the Quraan. Every false religion and every false "holy book" will have faults that will show that it isn't from God. But the Quraan has no faults. It is the perfect Book which is proof that it is from God.

The Quraan is not based of the OT. There are similarities because it is from the same one God and because there were mistakes in the bible that God corrected through the Quraan.

Jesus didn't say he was God or God's son, as others have proven with examples from encyclopedias.
i suppose it may be that people after Jesuscouldn't contemplate that a woman could have a son without a father or that God wasn't capable of creating a fatherless child, so they had to give jesus a father. Do you think God isn't capable to create a child without a father?

As far as laws are concerned, humans need laws. This is why every country has laws and those who don't follow them are punished. No one says, love america and so don't commit crime, etc. It's always: don't commit crimes or else you will be punished. Since it's in human nature, God dealt with it in the same manner. Those who don't want to follow God's laws because of the love of God may follow them from fear of God's punishment, and there is nothing wrong with that. God is a great being. Fearing Him is one of His rights.

Still, muslims do try to please God and do good deeds for the pleasure & love of God as well as to save themselves from God's anger and punishment. And, as humans are not perfect, the warnings about punishment keeps them in check.

There are various verses in the Quraan that show that the righteous will be pleased with God and God will be pleased with them. The following specifically tells about the righteous doing good deeds for God's love, so it's not only the bible that talks about love, but the Quraan also.

As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a cup (of drink) mixed with kafur -

A fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance.

They perform (their vows) and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide.

And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indignant, the orphan, and the captive -

(Saying), "we feed you for the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.

"We only fear a Day of distressful Wrath from the side of our Lord."

So Allah will deliver them from the evil of that Day, and will shed over them a Light of Beauty and a (blissful) Joy.

And because they were patient and constant, He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk.
...
See verses 5 to 22 of Surah 76, Al-Insaan (aka Al-Dahr)

Yes, the above verses do state that the righteous will fear the Day of Judgment, but that is only normal. Who, in their right mind, wouldn't fear the Day when God will be so angry at the evil-doers and when there is so much of a possibility that one can end up in Hell? If you believe in the Day of Judgment and Hell, you will fear too. and you will strive your best to do good deeds and stay away from bad deeds.

Finally, God wants the world to be a good place. Although He has given humans free choice, He doesn't want them to do evil and spread corruption in the land. This is why He repeatedly warns the people that if they disobey His laws, He will punish them. Love doesn't accomplish everything. Humans need love but they also need warnings of punishment.

I hope your questions have been answered.
Reply

naseem
06-28-2009, 04:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN
First of all I dont mean any offense with my questions.They are legitimate concerns.

.
The bible is a book composed of the Gospel, Torah, Psalm, and also some other very old scriptures.

Basically all of these Books in their original correct form had come down from the same source from which the Holy Quraan is sent down. The Master is the same and that is Allah, the Creator of all and the Lord of the worlds. Therefore, in the basic faith revealed in all of these Heavenly Books there is no difference. Some differences in the laws and commands are found due to the difference in circumstances in which each Book was revealed and was applied and enforced by the corresponding Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be on him).

Now there are great differences between those books and the Holy Quraan. The reason is that those books are changed by the people. The Holy Quraan clears away those wrong statements which are added by the people and confirms the teachings of the original correct Books.

So in all these books including the Holy Quraan we find statements of love, mercy and extreme degree of kindness on the one hand and strict hard statements about punishment to the cruel unjust on the other hand.

Neither the Bible contains only love statements nor the Holy Quraan contains only harsh laws of justice. The examples to prove this are given below:

In the Quraan, Allah Subhaanahu wa Ta’ala said in Verse 177 of Surah Al-Baqarah (the Cow):
“It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East and West (in Prayer) but the righteousness is to believe in Allah and the Last Day, the Angels and the Book and the Prophets, to spend your wealth out of love for Him (for the sake of love for Allah) for kin, orphans, the needy, the wayfarer, to those who ask (beg) and for the ransom of slaves; to establish prayer (Salah) and pay the obligatory charity, to fulfil their promises (and contracts) which they have made and to be firm and patient in pain (or suffering) and adversity and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people Truthful and God-fearing.

And in the Bible is the statement of Jesus: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I am come not to send peace but a sword. (Matthew X:34)

A universal truth and fact is that the innocent and oppressed people deserve love and mercy while the cruel ones deserve just punishment. And mankind always has these two kinds of people. So the Allah, the All Wise and Just Lord of the worlds, sent Prophets with the commands of love, mercy and help to the innocent oppressed people and the commands of just punishment to the cruel oppressors. Their love was never blind and the cruel couldn’t escape justice. Therefore in the reign of successful prophets alaihi salaam the world was full of peace, safety, and security.

Today the teachings of the Final Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam are put aside in Books – so the whole world is full of bloodshed. There is no help with the innocent oppressed ones and no justice against the cruel ones.

But the Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam has informed us about the Second coming of Jesus (Eisa Alaihi salaam). He will descend from the heaven in Syria and will help the oppressed innocent Muslims against the Jews. He will not accept jazya (war-tax) and will fight against the cruels until the world gets full of peace, safety, and security. He will follow the Holy Quraan in accordance with the Final Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam so he will not act as a new prophet. Rather he will follow the teachings of the Final Prophet Muhammad Sallallaho alaihi wasallam.
Reply

Jenny
07-09-2009, 06:23 PM
The truth is,that Muslims are unable to explain in the convincing way,why The Bible is false,because there`s simply no sensible explanation.The obvious truth is,that God can`t do something bad and without any sense,so every prophet who God sends to people,must be right-God simply has given different ways for different groups of people.Muslims say,that prophet Muhammad was the last prophet,and that`s why he is the only right.They don`t notice,that every prophet appeared in the different land.Why tit`s the time what decides? That can be the place equally well.
Reply

Jenny
07-09-2009, 06:32 PM
And they really should not mention religious wars,which are against Christianity anyway.Something what happened in 16-th century.Today`s Christians are not responsible for their ancestors.It would be amusing to say,that I`m responsible for something what my ancestor from 16-th century has done.So,I can`t apologize for this.Most of Muslims have never read The Bible and they don`t know what is written in it,but they judge the religion which they don`t know.
Reply

convert
07-09-2009, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
The truth is,that Muslims are unable to explain in the convincing way,why The Bible is false,because there`s simply no sensible explanation.The obvious truth is,that God can`t do something bad and without any sense,so every prophet who God sends to people,must be right-God simply has given different ways for different groups of people.Muslims say,that prophet Muhammad was the last prophet,and that`s why he is the only right.They don`t notice,that every prophet appeared in the different land.Why tit`s the time what decides? That can be the place equally well.
OR

is it just that you and those like you don't want to be convinced?
Reply

The_Prince
07-09-2009, 08:40 PM
is the Bible wrong? yes it is. :). on many things, where to start. its wrong on God, its wrong on science, its wrong on morals, its wrong on standards, its wrong on logic, its wrong on history, its wrong in literature and consistent textual standards, :) yes, the Bible is wrong.
Reply

The_Prince
07-09-2009, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
And they really should not mention religious wars,which are against Christianity anyway.Something what happened in 16-th century.Today`s Christians are not responsible for their ancestors.It would be amusing to say,that I`m responsible for something what my ancestor from 16-th century has done.So,I can`t apologize for this.Most of Muslims have never read The Bible and they don`t know what is written in it,but they judge the religion which they don`t know.
true, your not responsible for bad ancestors, but many victims are victims because of your bible ancestors. :)

anti-semitism is thanks to the Christian Bible. the problems in Palestine are thanks to your Jewish Bible, which has installed this nazi like message amongst zionists that they are the chosen race and people of God, and the land is specially given to them, and all others must be thrown out, killed, or made to be slaves.

so yes, your not responsible for ancestors, but your ancestors from the Bible are responsible for all crimes whether it be back 500 years ago, or now in the present, as the roots are all from your Bible.
Reply

Jenny
07-09-2009, 09:10 PM
It`s wrong in your opinion.You probably didn`t even read it,but you judge it.You know absolutely nothing about our Christian morals,standards,nothing,so think before you judge somebody`s morals.
Reply

convert
07-09-2009, 09:12 PM
I was a christian for 23 years. I "judge" from experience.
Reply

Jenny
07-09-2009, 09:16 PM
And Muslims are always innocent victims.They do absolutely nothing wrong,they are all saints,that`s what you want to say? Can you show me,where Jesus orders to kill somebody or to make him a slave? You will not find it,because he never did.You disgrace yourself by this your nazi-like speaking,that what you`ve just written,so I don`t need to add more.
Reply

Jenny
07-09-2009, 09:18 PM
Pity you had an unpleasant experience,but your experience can`t decide about the whole religion and all it`s members.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-09-2009, 09:18 PM
^^I hardly see who said anything Nazi like? You accuse yet you insult? Weird?
Nobody here said they are saints, so why u making stuff up?
Reply

convert
07-09-2009, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
And Muslims are always innocent victims.They do absolutely nothing wrong,they are all saints,that`s what you want to say? Can you show me,where Jesus orders to kill somebody or to make him a slave? You will not find it,because he never did.You disgrace yourself by this your nazi-like speaking,that what you`ve just written,so I don`t need to add more.
Matthew 10:34, Luke 22:36

I don't judge based on people, thats too easy (especially as a former southern baptist in the bible belt). I judge based on historical evidence and textual criticism.
Reply

GreyKode
07-09-2009, 10:06 PM
Can you show me,where Jesus orders to kill somebody or to make him a slave? You will not find it,because he never did.You disgrace yourself by this your nazi-like speaking,that what you`ve just written,so I don`t need to add more.
Dear Jenny, no muslim would ever dare accuse prophet Jesus(pbuh) with anything bad, he is highly respected in Islam, in fact all prophets are, prophet muhammad(pbuh) gave an example of himself in comparison to the rest of the prophets as the example of a beautiful house missing one single final stone, and that he is that stone.
If you feel good about the bible then no one can change your perception of it, but since you came to an islamic forum you have to understand that our belief as muslims is that the bible does not contain the original teachings of prophet jesus(pbuh).
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-09-2009, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
And Muslims are always innocent victims.They do absolutely nothing wrong,they are all saints,that`s what you want to say? Can you show me,where Jesus orders to kill somebody or to make him a slave? You will not find it,because he never did.You disgrace yourself by this your nazi-like speaking,that what you`ve just written,so I don`t need to add more.
Oh be quiet. Jesus, like Noah, never had an centralized following and never had to defend himself against people who made war on them.

Muhammad, like Moses and other old testament Prophets, had to engage in war to defend themselves and their land.

Everyone had a different role. So get real.

You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new. Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2, NIV. 1

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16, NIV. 1


31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.


Jesus is God according to you? God ordered war as shown above. Therefore Jesus ordered it. There is more if you want. Checkmate?
Reply

Gubbleknucker
07-10-2009, 12:37 AM
Of course the bible is wrong.

I particularly like the "I love you" rainbow after the pan-species genocidal flood...
which is used as a children's story, no less.
Reply

جوري
07-10-2009, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
The truth is,that Muslims are unable to explain in the convincing way,why The Bible is false,because there`s simply no sensible explanation.l.
Three web pages of voluminous biblical texts, scholarly reviews of later added passages not found in early apocrypha and christian events acting on such text isn't convincing? I think it is the comfortable response to choose but it isn't based on a factual discussion, and it is fine indeed, just so long as you don't accuse other members of not having read or having been.. many of the folks on this forum are actual converts from Christianity and I have personally attended four painful years of catholic school where ironically unlike my christian counterparts I received the highest grades in theological subjects..


I predict that you will not be very happy here, for the most part we are very matter of fact type people and you'll need a little more than 'there is no sensible explanation' or you are 'unread on the matter'...

all the best
Reply

YusufNoor
07-10-2009, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
The truth is,that Muslims are unable to explain in the convincing way,why The Bible is false,because there`s simply no sensible explanation.

actually, there are few!

The obvious truth is,that God can`t do something bad and without any sense,

why blame God if Christians changed their Message? you should blame the Christians!

so every prophet who God sends to people,must be right-God simply has given different ways for different groups of people.

but they lose their "way" when they change the Message!

Muslims say,that prophet Muhammad was the last prophet,and that`s why he is the only right.They don`t notice,that every prophet appeared in the different land.

we notice, and we notice that they corrupted their books AND Religion!

Why tit`s the time what decides? That can be the place equally well.

huh?
IF you believe the Bible to be true and lacking error, answer these simple questions:

"according to the Bible," did Jesus celebrate the Passover with his 12 Apostles, thus instituting what Christians call "the Lord's Supper" BEFORE he was [allegedly] crucified?

OR

"according to the Bible" did Jesus [allegedly] die BEFORE the Passover and thus NEVER initiate any sort of Lord's Supper?
Reply

Eric H
07-10-2009, 02:11 AM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

I believe that each of us should strive to become kinder, act justly, with loving kindness and be more forgiving by following our own scriptures. We sin against God and we sin against each other, when we try and ridicule other people’s beliefs.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith understanding and friendship

Eric
Reply

Intisar
07-10-2009, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
And they really should not mention religious wars,which are against Christianity anyway.Something what happened in 16-th century.Today`s Christians are not responsible for their ancestors.It would be amusing to say,that I`m responsible for something what my ancestor from 16-th century has done.So,I can`t apologize for this.Most of Muslims have never read The Bible and they don`t know what is written in it,but they judge the religion which they don`t know.
But you just judged Muslims saying that none of us have ever read the bible. :? What about ex-Christians who found Islam? Did they not read the bible?

Why can't you back up your accusations with facts instead of spewing around judgments? Which, ironically enough, you complain about Muslims doing. :rollseyes
Reply

gang4
07-10-2009, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
And they really should not mention religious wars,which are against Christianity anyway.Something what happened in 16-th century.Today`s Christians are not responsible for their ancestors.It would be amusing to say,that I`m responsible for something what my ancestor from 16-th century has done.So,I can`t apologize for this.Most of Muslims have never read The Bible and they don`t know what is written in it,but they judge the religion which they don`t know.
Good for you...
Since you are not responsible for your ancestor in 16th century (400 years old), so I take it, you do not believe in original sin since you are not responsible for Adam/Eve actions either (thousand of years old).
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-10-2009, 04:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gang4
Good for you...
Since you are not responsible for your ancestor in 16th century (400 years old), so I take it, you do not believe in original sin since you are not responsible for Adam/Eve actions either (thousand of years old).
Any response to this and my post Jenny?
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 12:57 PM
According to The Bilble,Jesus first ate his last supper,and later has been crucified.Why do you ask me such question,if you believe,that he was not crucified at all?
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 12:59 PM
History is one of the sciences,in which nothing is sure,except obvious material proofs,things found in th ground.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 01:03 PM
Yes.First,Jesus is not God,but the Son of God according to Christianity (spiritual son,not physical son,of course,because God is a ghost,He has no body and He has no sex).Secondly,what you write are words from the Old Book,which is base for Jewish,not for Christians.Jesus has never ordered any war.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 01:05 PM
We are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.The original sin means the proneness of human nature to sinning.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 01:08 PM
I would have doubts as to ex-Catholics,because according to their Church rules,they are allowed to read The Bilble,but not alowed to explain it for themselves without their priest.
Reply

YusufNoor
07-10-2009, 01:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
According to The Bilble,Jesus first ate his last supper,and later has been crucified.Why do you ask me such question,if you believe,that he was not crucified at all?
i specifically asked you about the Passover meal, did Jesus celebrate the Passover just before his [alleged] crucifixion.?

it's a simple question.

and i ask because i have read MANY versions the Bible [because there is NO such thing as "THE BIBLE"]; you seem to assume that no one here is familiar with it.

some of us a familiar with all of the errors and inconsistencies.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 01:12 PM
Give me obvious proofs,material proofs,for example,newly found old parts of The Bible,not historical expectations,then I`ll be convinced.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 01:18 PM
He celebrated it before his crucifixion.Previous evening,to be exact.One more thing,even if one day reveal,that The Bible was written by one or two men,even if reveal,that it`s not the whole text,it does not change a sense of that,what Jesus was teaching.He was teaching,that people should love God and should love each other.And that`s what I believe in,in the way I think right.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Saying that somebody has never read The Bilble,is not judging,that`s first.Second,I`ve heard,that Muslims are not allowed to read it-did someone (Muslim) inform me right?
Reply

YusufNoor
07-10-2009, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
He celebrated it before his crucifixion.Previous evening,to be exact.

thank you for answering the question, see below

One more thing,even if one day reveal,that The Bible was written by one or two men,even if reveal,that it`s not the whole text,it does not change a sense of that,what Jesus was teaching

so, you do not believe that "the Bible" is the word of God? you DO know that Protestantism STARTED to get back "to the Bible" after Rome had taken the Religion to so many strange and odd places that were NOT justified by Scripture?

.He was teaching,that people should love God and should love each other.And that`s what I believe in,in the way I think right.

and so, you don't believe that Islam also teaches that?
i'll give you credit, you answered the question. HOWEVER the author of what is called the gospel of John DISAGREES with you [as well as the authors of the other 3 gospels]!

lets see, shall we:

Lets look at “John,” in chapter 18 we see:

Jesus Before Pilate John 18

28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. you see, they hadn't eaten the Passover meal yet!

and in John 19:

13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. it is STILL the preparation day!


And on that “Preparation Day:

16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

Well, so what? Is this just some kind of double error by scribes? Actually and emphatically NO!

The author of “John” has deliberate changed the story AND we can prove it! The author has Jesus killed on the Preparation Day in order add a new title for Jesus, that being the Lamb of God! How do we know? Go back to John 1:

29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."

35The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"

conclusion: You won’t find Jesus referred to in any of the other Gospels as “the Lamb of God!” it is a creation of the author of “John” AND he changed “the gospel” in order to make the name fit! he is implying that Jesus died about the time that the lambs were sacrificed for the Passover meal in order to make the claim that Jesus is NOW the Lamb of God! so we have PROOF here that a gospel writer is NOT writing any kind of history, he is just changing the story to fit the theology that he wants to preach.

and so i ask, is it possible that Jesus DID eat the Passover Meal with his disciples and that he also DIDN'T eat it with them? can both be true?

now, "according to the Bible," where did Joseph and Mary live before Jesus was born?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-10-2009, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
Saying that somebody has never read The Bilble,is not judging,that`s first.Second,I`ve heard,that Muslims are not allowed to read it-did someone (Muslim) inform me right?
No, they didn't inform you right. The only difference is we shouldn't make it our priority.

Even if someone told you this, what makes you think billions of Muslims worldwide didn't read it? Do you know them all? I'd guess not.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 05:23 PM
You`ve mistaken two things.The Passover which Jesus has eaten with Apostols,was earlier,before the official Jewish celebration,because Jesus ordered so.So John does not imply anything.Christians are not obliged to keep Jewish feasts.As to your second question,Joseph and Mary temporarily lived nowhere,they have been on the way,when Jesus was born (in Betleeem).
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 05:26 PM
No,I don`t know all Muslims,but if I hear from Muslim,that Islam forbids reading The Bible...what can I think,it sounded possible.Looks like he didn`t know Islam properly himself.
Reply

جوري
07-10-2009, 05:56 PM
I don't think you know any Muslims at all as a matter of fact, difficult to lie about something like this on an Islamic forum.. when you do it on the other boards you'd probably be sympathized with given that we are all ignorant barbarians .. if you do it here you'd be crucified for ignorance isn't an excuse if you make a statement of assertion. This discussion is futile until you do some reading..

all the best
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 06:06 PM
To Gossamer:and you are wrong,I`ve lived between Muslims for 5 years.I don`t care if a man like you believes me or not.You probably would crucify ME with pleasure for something,what I`ve heard from SOMEBODY ANOTHER.Your "pain" is,that this man was Muslim and you want to be vented on me,because I`m Christian.
Reply

جوري
07-10-2009, 06:34 PM
No, I am very right, for starters you didn't even bother with something very obvious, and that is addressing me as a female, clearly my gender is specified as sister.. You overlook something staring you in the face, then how can we take for granted something you allege off board, especially when completely fallacious?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-10-2009, 06:52 PM
Why are people so emo.
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 06:54 PM
To Gossamer:first,not addressing you as a sister doesn`t mean at all,that I`m a liar.For your infomation "man" has two meanings in English.In Plural:"men" or "people".
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-10-2009, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
To Gossamer:first,not addressing you as a sister doesn`t mean at all,that I`m a liar.For your infomation "man" has two meanings in English.In Plural:"men" or "people".
If you want to get down to semantics/grammar, you used it totally of out context. It doesn't fit in your sentence. Man is plural when u refer to more than one, otherise man is singular and the pural of that is men. Considering that you said "a man" makes it singular not plural.
Reply

جوري
07-10-2009, 07:00 PM
what the?
this topic has completely derailed..
let's shift gears and bring it back to where it needs to go..
Reply

Jenny
07-10-2009, 07:06 PM
I`m afraid you are wrong,please check it out first,"man" is always singular and "men" always plural.Similarly,"woman"is always singular,"women"is always plural.
Reply

جوري
07-10-2009, 07:15 PM
no-- sr. light of heaven is correct!..as per dictionary and there are certainly multiple meanings:

Man: The generic use of the word to refer to any human being
All of the living human inhabitants of the earth
also to take charge of something such as "We cannot man all the desks"; "Students were manning the booths"

either way it isn't the issue, and getting lost in semantics shouldn't be used as an excuse to deflect or derail the topic!
Reply

gang4
07-10-2009, 07:28 PM
out of 15 posts, 8 of your posts started with these lines...

format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
I`m afraid you are wrong,
You`ve mistaken two things...
To Gossamer:and you are wrong,
Saying that somebody has never read The Bilble,is not judging,...
It`s wrong in your opinion.You probably didn`t even read it,but you judge it.You know absolutely nothing...
And Muslims are always innocent victims.They do absolutely nothing wrong...?
Pity you had an unpleasant experience,but your experience can`t decide...
I need to ask, are you old enough to drive, Jenny?
Your response is kinda... a childish response (no offense was intended)
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-10-2009, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
I`m afraid you are wrong,please check it out first,"man" is always singular and "men" always plural.Similarly,"woman"is always singular,"women"is always plural.
You tell me I'm wrong and repeat the same thing I said. Lovely! Conversing with you has hardly been productive. I shall leave you to yourself!

Peace.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-10-2009, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
We are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.The original sin means the proneness of human nature to sinning.
O really? And did humanity become less prone to sin after Jesus pbuh supposedly took up all our sin?

Original sin is from Adam and Eve in christianity. Look at your doctrine.
Reply

Jenny
07-11-2009, 08:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Three web pages of voluminous biblical texts, scholarly reviews of later added passages not found in early apocrypha and christian events acting on such text isn't convincing? I think it is the comfortable response to choose but it isn't based on a factual discussion, and it is fine indeed, just so long as you don't accuse other members of not having read or having been.. many of the folks on this forum are actual converts from Christianity and I have personally attended four painful years of catholic school where ironically unlike my christian counterparts I received the highest grades in theological subjects..


I predict that you will not be very happy here, for the most part we are very matter of fact type people and you'll need a little more than 'there is no sensible explanation' or you are 'unread on the matter'...

all the best
I`m afraid you base it on opinions of historians,not on real hard material proofs.And even if there are some imperfections on The Bible,it does not change Jesus message:to love God and love other people.
Reply

Jenny
07-11-2009, 08:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
no-- sr. light of heaven is correct!..as per dictionary and there are certainly multiple meanings:

Man: The generic use of the word to refer to any human being
All of the living human inhabitants of the earth
also to take charge of something such as "We cannot man all the desks"; "Students were manning the booths"

either way it isn't the issue, and getting lost in semantics shouldn't be used as an excuse to deflect or derail the topic!
If you want to continue language discussion (I have no special will,but I will if you want...):of course,"man" means also the same,what means "mensch" in German,but it`s still singular.Ask some English teacher.
Reply

Jenny
07-11-2009, 09:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by gang4
out of 15 posts, 8 of your posts started with these lines...



I need to ask, are you old enough to drive, Jenny?
Your response is kinda... a childish response (no offense was intended)
That`s unbelievable,how quickly people can take small pieces of somebody`s text to have something to turn it against him.That`s a very bad things also for religions,to take some piece from The Qur`an or from The Bible and use it for such purpose.(sorry,it`s not my intention to suggest you,that you do the same with religion).
Reply

Jenny
07-11-2009, 09:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
O really? And did humanity become less prone to sin after Jesus pbuh supposedly took up all our sin?

Original sin is from Adam and Eve in christianity. Look at your doctrine.
Original sin comes from Adam and Eve,because they showed the proneness to sinning and they did a sin as first.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-11-2009, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
If you want to continue language discussion (I have no special will,but I will if you want...):of course,"man" means also the same,what means "mensch" in German,but it`s still singular.Ask some English teacher.
What "man" means isnt even the issue. There are many meanings for one word. We arent discussing German here ok. Saying "a man" refers to the male gender and in singular form. If English was a problem for her or I, I think the professors throughout school would have said so!
Reply

جوري
07-11-2009, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
If you want to continue language discussion (I have no special will,but I will if you want...):of course,"man" means also the same,what means "mensch" in German,but it`s still singular.Ask some English teacher.
ha? this isn't man or men or German, the title reads 'Isthe bible is wrong?'

you are unable to focus on the subject matter, and unable to properly address the subjects here & with each successive post dig yourself into a deeper hole!.. don't allege understanding of the Quran or Islam ergo your 'friends', what is apparent from your writing speaks louder for you!

all the best
Reply

Jenny
07-11-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
ha? this isn't man or men or German, the title reads 'Isthe bible is wrong?'

you are unable to focus on the subject matter, and unable to properly address the subjects here & with each successive post dig yourself into a deeper hole!.. don't allege understanding of the Quran or Islam ergo your 'friends', what is apparent from your writing speaks louder for you!

all the best
Until now,you focus not on the subject,but on personal attacking me,because you are unable to prove me that I`m not right whatever I say,in the subject or not.Personal attacks are not sensible arguments,so if you want only to attack me,not to discuss,will be better if we finish writing to each other.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-11-2009, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
Until now,you focus not on the subject,but on personal attacking me,because you are unable to prove me that I`m not right whatever I say,in the subject or not.Personal attacks are not sensible arguments,so if you want only to attack me,not to discuss,will be better if we finish writing to each other.
In fairness, everytime you argue a point you refuse to address the counterpoints. For example, the "where has Jesus commanded people to be killed" post or something along those lines.

Unless you respond to the counterpoints to your own posts coherently, you don't come across as focused.
Reply

جوري
07-11-2009, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
In fairness, everytime you argue a point you refuse to address the counterpoints. For example, the "where has Jesus commanded people to be killed" post or something along those lines.

Unless you respond to the counterpoints to your own posts coherently, you don't come across as focused.
It is belaboring -- every other post of hers is either lost semantics or distaste for very thorough debates..it becomes a matter of saving face than intellectual honesty.

I am going to unsubscribe from this thread.. until such a time one of them can refute point by point the topics raised, the value of this thread otherwise has lost all meaning!

:w:
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-11-2009, 08:13 PM
In all honesty, she is not attacking you, but addressing what you say in your posts. You on the other hand, get off the topic and insult. Please watch yourself.

I am going to unsubscribe from this thread.. until such a time one of them can refute point by point the topics raised, the value of this thread otherwise has lost all meaning!
Me too. These posts will probably be gone soon enough.
Reply

LaIlahaIlaAllah
07-12-2009, 11:50 AM
i've read only the first message and i don't know if it was answered (i'm pretty sure it was), but i really want to answer too anyway.(:

i really want to answer about the last part

"Now what was your motivation to do good?"

you think doing good out of fear is wrong?

So what you are saying is... that if your kid is acting bad you shouldn't punish him? if someone is a criminal hurting people you shouldn't throw him in jail? and the whole justice thing that people are trying to do... it's all wrong?

now i will ask you, do you think God needs you to do things for him? out of love or fear or whatever?
you don't understand this part cause only in Islam, the religion has rules for almost every thing, it is literally a life guide.
Why did God gave us rules? is it because it will benefit him in anyway? God is the Greatest, the Absolute Ruler!
He doesn't need us. we need Him. you see, Islam isn't something that you can put on the back of your shelf. it's rules are concerning the most simplest acts of everyday. We pray 5 times a day , so we will not forget it.
"He is successful who purifies himself, and remembers the name of his Lord, and so prays." (87:14-15)
why are we told to remember Him? so we will not go astray!
so... for conclusion, what is the meaning of Islam? Islam means "Submission to the will of God" and in it's ethical sense islam signifies "striving after the ideal". "Islam" and "Muslim" derive from the same word as the Arabic for "Peace", and the best greeting between muslims is "Peace be unto you".

Peace, between the people. Rules so we can live in Harmony and fear so we will remember that there is justice.

and Allah knows best.
Reply

thetruth2009
07-22-2009, 07:56 PM
Assalam aleykoum, Shalom, peace on you,

We are following all the religion of our father Abraham :

Jewish, Christians and muslims.

Allah SWT says in the quran :

CHAPTER 16
Al-Naƒl: The Bee

123 Then We revealed to thee:
Follow the faith of Abraham, the
upright one; and he was not of the
polytheists.

The prophete Mohamed SWS says in the quran :

CHAPTER 6
Al-An‘åm: The Cattle

161 Say: As for me, my Lord has
guided me to the right path — a right
religion, the faith of Abraham, the
upright one, and he was not of the
polytheists.

We have to call each other on one say that we beleive in one god, without any association I mean we have not to associate, only one god you can call him what you want he has the most beautifful name.

I do not understand whay peole are saying they are three religion, I see only one religion, like three brothers of the same father.

We have to call to what we have in common, i do not understand whay :

Jewish want all the world follow them and they say they will go all to heaven and the others will go to hell.

Christian want all the world follow them and they say they will go all to heaven and the others will go to hell.

Muslims want all the world follow them and they say they will go all to heaven and the others will go to hell.

We have forget the Satan, devil, diablo he has the worst name, he divided the religion of god and people have hates each other, every one of the three community thing that they are above the two others.

Wake up people we have to find out the truth without any pride, we have to open our eyes of our heart, we have to see clearly, we have not to protect the false.

May god help us, Amine, Ameen.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-22-2009, 08:46 PM
We are following all the religion of our father Abraham :

Jewish, Christians and muslims.
The Jews and Christians now are not following the same message they were sent with at their appointed time...their books have been changed and more so the Bible...too many additions/subtractions. Taking bits and pieces out of a holy book no longer remains in its pure form.


Muslims want all the world follow them and they say they will go all to heaven and the others will go to hell.
The only religion acceptable to Allah(swt) is Islaam and it is mentioned in the Qur'aan....eventually every Muslim will go to Jannah InshaAllah....

And only Allah knows best who amongsts others will go to Jannah..


The prophete Mohamed SWS says in the quran :

CHAPTER 6
Al-An‘åm: The Cattle

161 Say: As for me, my Lord has
guided me to the right path — a right
religion, the faith of Abraham, the
upright one, and he was not of the
polytheists.
Prophet Muhammad(saw) doesn't "speak" in the Qur'aan. Everything said in the Qur'aan is said by Allah(swt).
Qur'aan is of Allah(swt) and Sunnah is of the Prophet(saw).

I do not understand whay peole are saying they are three religion, I see only one religion, like three brothers of the same father.
Indeed in a sense there is but one religion and that is the religion of Allah that the Prophets(pbut) followed i.e. Islaam...because they all submitted to the will of Allah(swt), which is the meaning of Islaam and being a Muslim.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-23-2009, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Religion of Abraham, but we follow the prophete mohamaed SWS, what the prophete mohamed SWS says about Abraham can you bring me Verses in the Quran ??? thanking you in advance .

Take care, peace upon you, amine, Ameen.
:sl:

The final revelation is the Qur'aan, the final book to follow is the Qur'aan and Allah(swt) says die not except in the state of ISLAM i.e submission to Allah. I'm not saying there aren't any good Christians and Jews and most of the time these people embrace Islam. The Qur'aan is the final revelation and Prophet Muhammad(saw) the seal of all other Prophets. You have to ACCEPT Prophet Muhammad(saw).

The righteous Jews and Christians who followed the message they recieved will InshaAllah enter Jannah. Eesa(as) was sent the Injeel and the injeel now is hardly the same thing he(as) followed. Their books have been ALTERED, so Allah(swt) sent Prophet Muhammad(saw) with the final revelation, the Qur'aan. This book is for ALL times, the injeel and gospel was for one time and one nation. Ibrahim(as) was a Muslim because he submitted fully to the will of Allah and that is what a Muslim is. If u understand what Islaam and Muslim means you'd understand the context I speak in. But unfortunately u don't. Also none of the Prophets(pbut) were idol worshippers like most people are today.

And for the last time I'm not a brother.
Reply

thetruth2009
07-23-2009, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
:sl:

The final revelation is the Qur'aan, the final book to follow is the Qur'aan and Allah(swt) says die not except in the state of ISLAM i.e submission to Allah. I'm not saying there aren't any good Christians and Jews and most of the time these people embrace Islam. The Qur'aan is the final revelation and Prophet Muhammad(saw) the seal of all other Prophets. You have to ACCEPT Prophet Muhammad(saw).

The righteous Jews and Christians who followed the message they recieved will InshaAllah enter Jannah. Eesa(as) was sent the Injeel and the injeel now is hardly the same thing he(as) followed. Their books have been ALTERED, so Allah(swt) sent Prophet Muhammad(saw) with the final revelation, the Qur'aan. This book is for ALL times, the injeel and gospel was for one time and one nation. Ibrahim(as) was a Muslim because he submitted fully to the will of Allah and that is what a Muslim is. If u understand what Islaam and Muslim means you'd understand the context I speak in. But unfortunately u don't. Also none of the Prophets(pbut) were idol worshippers like most people are today.

And for the last time I'm not a brother.
Assalam aleykoum my Sister, sorry by calling you brother :statisfie

I have a very simple question, not two or Hundreds only one.

Can you bring me proof that in the Quran Allah SWT Cancel, Invalid Thora and Bible.

Thank you for your reply, I will give you all the time you nedd, if you are and I am still alive.

Assalam aleykoum all of you brothers and sisters in islam and in Humanity.
Reply

thetruth2009
07-23-2009, 11:26 PM
Assalam aleykoum my sister,


format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
I haven't said anything about Allah(swt) corrupting or canceling anything. Why would Allah(swt) corrupt/cancel the message revealed from Him?

You are totally right my siter Allah SWTdoes't cancel any book because there sent by him.

The only people to have corrupted their books for the Jews and Christians. Allah(swt) sent the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad(saw) confirming the scriptures revealed to Eesa(as) and Musa(as) and telling us the Qur'aan is the final revelation for mankind to follow.
I have another question where is write that Jewish and Christians have to follow the Prophete Mohamed SWS ( In the Quran ) ???


Thank you my sister, I have to go.

Assalam aleykoum.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-23-2009, 11:55 PM
Because he is the final Messenger of Allah! Eesa(as) when he comes back will come to confirm to the Christians that he was only a Prophet(as) of Allah. Eesa(as) will follow the message given to Prophet Muhammad(saw). The Quraan is the final revelation to MANKIND. The Taurat and Injeel were sent for a certain period!

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

{Say [O Prophet]: "This is my way: Resting upon conscious insight accessible to reason, I am calling [you all] unto God - I and they who follow me." And [say:] "Limitless is God in His glory; and I am not one of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him!"} (Yusuf 12 - 08)

{Say (O, Muhammad): “If you love Allâh, then follow me, Allâh will love you
and forgive you your sins. And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”}
[3:31].

{He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad),
has indeed obeyed Allâh}
[4:80].

{But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O,
Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance
against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission}
[4:65].

There are plenty more of these kinds of verses.



In the bible as well, referrin to Prophet Muhammad(saw).
In Deuteronomy 18:17-19:

"And the Lord said unto me. They have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
Reply

thetruth2009
07-25-2009, 10:11 PM
Assalam aleykoum,


My post are again deleted, what that means ?

With all the respect due to you sisters and brothers in islam, I do not understand.

Can you tell me if its that you learned from the prophete Mohamed SWS or not ??

When someone telling you things diffrent from what the majority of muslims are saying you delet him message, wjat will be the next steep , I will be banned ???

You make me laugh because you are talking about other people but you are worst.

Where is the FREEDOM SPEECH, you are saying always you are the best of all human in what way ?????

Sorry if I did some wrong to anybody I apologize, but I want to Knwo if its allowed to use Quran in this forum, because its what I am doing nothing else.

If you fight against the Quran, I have nothing to say.

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.
Reply

Tony
07-25-2009, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Assalam aleykoum,


My post are again deleted, what that means ?

With all the respect due to you sisters and brothers in islam, I do not understand.

Can you tell me if its that you learned from the prophete Mohamed SWS or not ??

When someone telling you things diffrent from what the majority of muslims are saying you delet him message, wjat will be the next steep , I will be banned ???

You make me laugh because you are talking about other people but you are worst.

Where is the FREEDOM SPEECH, you are saying always you are the best of all human in what way ?????

Sorry if I did some wrong to anybody I apologize, but I want to Knwo if its allowed to use Quran in this forum, because its what I am doing nothing else.

If you fight against the Quran, I have nothing to say.

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.


Peace brother, we may be misinterpreting you but you were coming across a bit disrespectful in your posts, its happened before when muslims come and get angry when we dont accept what is being said, I dont think its what your saying but how you say it. Of course the majority of Muslims beleive the Qur'an and Sunnah, and after all its the majority that are going to go Jannah insha'Allah. Therefore it grates when things are said that challenge this. Anyway brother let us draw aline here and continue anew. May Allah grant us smooth communication and help us to understand each other in order to further commit to Islam,Ameen. Peace brother
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
07-25-2009, 10:42 PM
Yes bro Tony.

Ameen to the du'a.

:sl:
Reply

Muhammad
07-25-2009, 11:19 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
My post are again deleted, what that means ?
Some of what you said may have been correct, however, I noticed some very incorrect statements in your posts and was confused how you were mixing right and wrong together. I deleted your posts because on this forum, we do not allow people to speak about Islam without knowledge and based upon their own interpretation. The only freedom of speech in this regard is that which is in accordance with the authentic teachings of Islam. Anything else is of no value whatsoever.

Regarding your statements:

I do not understand whay peole are saying they are three religion, I see only one religion, like three brothers of the same father.
May god show us the right path, because all the Humanity is in the wrong way in my opinion, nobody has the truth but all the three community has a part of the truth and we have to assemble part of the truth like a puzzle.
Dear brother, there is no other truth besides Islam. Islam is the complete truth and nothing but the truth. The Qur'an clearly states (interpretation of the meaning):

Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam... [3:19]

Allah (swt) states that there is no religion He will accept from any person except Islam. Whoever meets Allah (swt) following a path other than that of Prophet Muhammad :saws:, it will not be accepted of him.

In another verse, He says (interpretation of the meaning):

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him [3:85]


If this is not clear to you, you must re-visit the basics of Islam and learn about it before debating these issues with others.


I think this thread has served its original purpose, hence -

Thread closed.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-24-2018, 03:25 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-13-2011, 02:33 AM
  3. Replies: 21
    Last Post: 11-23-2007, 04:58 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-19-2006, 03:29 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!