Faith and doubt

[math]

I wonder how certain the people visiting this forum are about the existence of God. Are you 100% certain about His existence? Or would you rather say you are for example 99% or perhaps 99.9% certain?

The same question can be asked to the atheists, of course. Are you 100% certain there is no God?

Furthermore, do you think it would make someone a bad Muslim, when he cannot or doesn't one to believe fully, and keeps some degree of doubt?

[Yanal]

:salamext:
We cannot be muslims if we we say Allah has a partner which means if we have doubt then we cannot be called muslims. That is called Shirk when you relate someone to Allah.

:w:

[maryam87]

Having doubt will make you a hypocrite not a muslim. Im 100% certain that Allah (swt) is real if i doubted by just a half % i wouldnt want to even be part of this world i'll prefer to just jump off a cliff instead. Too much injustice happens in life just the thought people will go about will no punishment will make me extremely depressed. So its my 100% belief in the All-Just that gives me contentment in my everyday living.

[AntiKarateKid]

I wonder how certain the people visiting this forum are about the existence of God. Are you 100% certain about His existence? Or would you rather say you are for example 99% or perhaps 99.9% certain?

The same question can be asked to the atheists, of course. Are you 100% certain there is no God?

Furthermore, do you think it would make someone a bad Muslim, when he cannot or doesn't one to believe fully, and keeps some degree of doubt?

I like you style of questioning, and I went through it once too.

Allah asks us in the Quran to consider the universe.

52:35 Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?

52:36 Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief.

We know that the universe and reality are here. But when I think about it, what caused them to be here? What created the universe? The Big Bang? What caused the Big bang? What provided the substance and laws for the Big Bang? What created reality itself?

The existence of God is necessary to avoid infinite regression. The uncreated beginning.

In addition to this, the life of Prophet Muhammad, his actions, his prophecies which came true all right true to me. The Quran itself has never been matched in Arabic literature since its inception.

There is something called the Challenge of the Quran. Allah basically says, "If you think Muhammad made this up, then try and make something like it." And till this day, no assembly of scholars, intellectuals, or poets have ever been able to match it. It is a promise from Allah that they will not be able to and is a reason why the Quran, unlike the Bible, is a miracle for ALL GENERATIONS. We don't base our faith on miracles that happened thousands of years ago which we never saw. We hold the greatest miracle in our hands today.

Or do they say: "He (Muhammad(P)) has forged it (this Qur'an)?" Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'an) if they are truthful. [Qur'an 52:33-34]



Indeed Math, the opening words of the Quran strike deeply into the hearts of men and show them that THIS is the truth from God.

This is the Book wherein there is no doubt. (Quran 2:1)

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['Abd-al Hakim]

:sl:
We go through many hardships to keep our 100% faith on Allah:

Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah (rahimallah*) said in the Book of Faith:*“The believer is put to trial by the whispering of Satan, the whispering of kufr which causes him distress, as the Companions (radiallahu anhum) said: “Oh Messenger of Allah! o ne of us has thoughts within himself of such a nature that he would rather fall down from the heaven than speak of them.” The Rasool (*alayhi salatul wasalam) said:“That is true faith”And in another narration: “he considers it too grave to express.” He (alayhi salatul wasalam) said:“All praise and thanks are Allah’s who has reduced his (shaytan) intrigue to (evil) whispering)”*That is, the occurence of his whispering along with this great hatred for it and repelling it from the heart is a part of true faith, like the warrior in Allah’s Cause who met the enemy and fought him until he overcame him, for that is a great Jihad up to his words.*

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you math;

The creation of the universe and life is history, either God exists fully and totally and he created the universe, or there is no God.

We cannot change history, whatever you or I think is almost pointless. One thing for sure, there cannot be an agnostic God, a possibly God. If he exists he is as real as the chair I am sitting on, but he has a far greater meaning.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

['Abd-al Hakim]

:sl:
To have faith in ALLAH is to trust Him in good times and bad times, in prosperity and poverty, when we have made intelligent decisions or dumb mistakes.* Things don’t always go as we plan.* Sometimes we can do something so stupid that we doubt our sanity.* But keeping faith in ALLAH by using our conscious minds can save us and help get us back on track.

:w:

[Hamayun]

No doubt :)

There is no room for doubt...

The fact that this this universe even exists is reason enough for me to have no doubts :)

[GuestFellow]

I admit, when I was younger I used to have my doubts and I was fairly confused. As I got older my doubts cleared up and I believed in Allah. 100%! No room for doubts. My belief in Allah got stronger.

BTW I was 6-8 years old when I had these doubts =/

[Ali_008]

:sl:
No doubt, at all. God is there 100%.
I ask of him everyday and he gives me everyday everything I ask for, except sometimes when I contradict myself.:giggling:
:w:

[Muhaba]

It depends on how much knowledge you have, both Islamic knowledge and scientific knowledge. The more knowledge you have, the stronger your faith, insha-Allah. It's very important, btw, to ask God for guidance and faith.

[Ben]

From what I’ve read on this thread, it seems to me that the popular opinion is that someone with faith in God can have “no room for doubt.” But without doubt and questioning, aren’t you following your faith blindly?

In general, I think the more you know about any given subject, the more you realize how little you know. Think about it—when you were in elementary school, you learned all about adding and subtracting, multiplying and dividing. And that was great! But then you started to learn algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and possibly a slew of other mathematical subjects. The further you go, the more you realize that you really do have a limited knowledge of what you’ve studied for so long. The same is true in religion—the more you know about Islam (or Christianity, etc.) the more you wonder about things. Is Allah necessary for morality? Is the Qur’an really inerrant? Does this verse in the Qur’an really mean what these non-Muslims are claiming? The list goes on and on (these same questions can be asked of Christianity, too)…

So what do we do? There will always be unanswered questions in our finite lives, and we must learn to live with them. But it is a good idea to tackle the doubts that you have one at a time. Pursue it to the ground. I think that’s where this forum is especially helpful for the Muslim—you can learn from each other and see what others are facing in their daily lives.

Someone needed to write a dissenting opinion! :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I have no doubt Alhamdulillah. The more I learn and understand Islam and see how and why Islam says things...it increases my faith in Allah.

[Trumble]

The same question can be asked to the atheists, of course. Are you 100% certain there is no God?

Nope. I am 100% certain that, if there were, He wouldn't take it personally if I don't believe He exists, though.

[alcurad]

hmm, I agree with some of what Ben said, but again, having doubt is the basis of faith.

the more I learn, I have faith in some areas, and less in others. it's a continuous process though, and to this day, I have moments of doubt, which i welcome, without them I wouldn't have started learning in the first place, but they aren't about God as much as about my own idea of him.

it seems we will always be anthropomorphizing at some levl regardless of how much we try not to, thus I stopped thinking about God's 'essence' or attributes that seem to have no direct relation to us humans. doing that really solved much of what was troubling me before, since our knowledge is forever limited, I decided not to indulge too much in musings about God that I had no way of knowing were true or not.

still a lot to learn though :)

[syilla]

100% believe and have faith in Allah swt. and loving islam all the way :)

i too...still have long way to go.

[- IqRa -]

No doubt :)

There is no room for doubt...

The fact that this this universe even exists is reason enough for me to have no doubts :)

Agreed.

[Ben]

I agree that the cosmological argument for the existence of God is a good one. And rightly so—it’s been defended by some great minds like Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, and many others. But I don’t think these people just looked up into the sky and were satisfied by saying, “Oh, yeah, God exists…moving on now.” They had to actually THINK about WHY they believe what they believe. That is what I’m trying to say we all need to do. You have to think.

Just because you have faith doesn’t mean that you can throw all the rules of logic and reason out the window. You were given a mind for a reason. You must ask how you know Islam is true. Can it simply be a leap of faith or on the authority of the Qur’an, both unrelated to reason?

(Atheism and any other religion are not excluded from asking how they know belief in X is true.)

[AntiKarateKid]

I just say "where did reality come from?" and then I remember these physical things can't create themselves and there is no way the universe or big bang events are eternal. You need the uncreated beginning.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I agree that the cosmological argument for the existence of God is a good one. And rightly so—it’s been defended by some great minds like Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, and many others. But I don’t think these people just looked up into the sky and were satisfied by saying, “Oh, yeah, God exists…moving on now.” They had to actually THINK about WHY they believe what they believe. That is what I’m trying to say we all need to do. You have to think.

Just because you have faith doesn’t mean that you can throw all the rules of logic and reason out the window. You were given a mind for a reason. You must ask how you know Islam is true. Can it simply be a leap of faith or on the authority of the Qur’an, both unrelated to reason?

(Atheism and any other religion are not excluded from asking how they know belief in X is true.)

It can't be automatically assumed that we don't "think." Plenty of us have thought about it.

A lot of things require a leap of faith, great or small.

[math]

I just say "where did reality come from?" and then I remember these physical things can't create themselves and there is no way the universe or big bang events are eternal. You need the uncreated beginning.

Can you explain why exactly God can be eternal, while the universe cannot be?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I'm not 100% sure that god doesn't exist. It's just my belief that he doesn't.

People who say they are 100% certain that god exists are claiming knowledge in an area where knowledge is not possible. Mind you, they probably also think they have "proof" as well.

I'm very pleased to see Ben's posts in this thread - it's good to see a new member who speaks so much sense.

Peace

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

From what I’ve read on this thread, it seems to me that the popular opinion is that someone with faith in God can have “no room for doubt.” But without doubt and questioning, aren’t you following your faith blindly?

In general, I think the more you know about any given subject, the more you realize how little you know. Think about it—when you were in elementary school, you learned all about adding and subtracting, multiplying and dividing. And that was great! But then you started to learn algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and possibly a slew of other mathematical subjects. The further you go, the more you realize that you really do have a limited knowledge of what you’ve studied for so long. The same is true in religion—the more you know about Islam (or Christianity, etc.) the more you wonder about things. Is Allah necessary for morality? Is the Qur’an really inerrant? Does this verse in the Qur’an really mean what these non-Muslims are claiming? The list goes on and on (these same questions can be asked of Christianity, too)…

So what do we do? There will always be unanswered questions in our finite lives, and we must learn to live with them. But it is a good idea to tackle the doubts that you have one at a time. Pursue it to the ground. I think that’s where this forum is especially helpful for the Muslim—you can learn from each other and see what others are facing in their daily lives.

Someone needed to write a dissenting opinion! :)

There's no doubt in Allah, and that is based on proofs, not on blind faith. And the example you mentioned related to maths prooves exactly what I said: widening our mathematical education doesn't let us doubt in elementary maths, but it makes us even more convinced, because what we are tought in elementary maths is simply true, and no matter how much you learn you'll never disapprove it.

So, people mix up conclusions made from experience, and logical conclusions. The first are subject to change, the second aren't.

The same is with our Allah, subhanah. What His religion teaches about Him is based on proofs, strong fundaments, and it's simply - true. No matter how much you learn about Islam and other religions you'll never be able to disapprove it, which is not the case with other religions.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Wondering and pondering upon teachings is not the same as doubt, Ben. Doubt is doubt - no need to mince words and confuse yourself over this :).

[Zafran]

People who say they are 100% certain that god exists are claiming knowledge in an area where knowledge is not possible. Mind you, they probably also think they have "proof" as well.

which area is knowledge possible for the extreme sceptic? You can preety much reduce everything to zero knowledge depending on how you define knowledge.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

I'm not 100% sure that god doesn't exist. It's just my belief that he doesn't.

In order to have faith in God you have to do something to prove that faith, and to prove to yourself that you trust in God.

About eighteen months ago I went through a training process to become a ‘Street Pastor’ There are nineteen of us all together and we go out in pairs, about half the team are ladies, and most of us are in our forties, fifties and sixties,. We are all volunteers from different churches and different denominations.

The police brief us about any problems, we go to all the known hotspots that brings us into contact with gangs, drugs, alcohol and other problems that exist in our streets late at night.

If we come across a threatening gang of twenty youths we trust in God and have faith that God will guide us, we pray that we might bring about some kind of peace.

We depend on prayers and a prayer team back in the church who are praying for us, they also pray for the needs of the community, we have faith that their prayers help us.

I have come across a number of incidents that test my faith, and I know that it is faith and trust in God that gives me the courage to keep going. I don’t know how it works, but in times I should be feeling fear and anxiety, I find this inner peace that surpasses all my understanding.

In the spirit of praying for an inner peace that surpasses all understanding

Eric

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

Can you explain why exactly God can be eternal, while the universe cannot be?

Ans is easy :) - God is the Creator of the Universe. Our Creator can not die and He fixed a specific time period for His creation . So , the universe can not be eternal .

[math]

Salaam/Peace
Ans is easy :) - God is the Creator of the Universe. Our Creator can not die and He fixed a specific time period for His creation . So , the universe can not be eternal .

Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean.

[abdullah_001]

Can you explain why exactly God can be eternal, while the universe cannot be?

Well, logically, if you as an agnostic assume that God exists and created all that exists then the rest is really an easy conclusion to come to. If God created all that exists then God must also have created the concept of death. And if God created the entire existence then that must mean that God existed before the existence of all that exists implying that God is free from dependence to all that God created. This also implies that God is eternal since our first conclusion was that God created death and God is independent of his creation. :)

[celina]

One of my lecturers at university was an atheist, having a conversation with her she revealed that if she witnesses a ghost something or supernatural she will choose to ignore and say that it was her imagination. In return I said to her that if a miricale happened in her life would she also choose to ignore it?.My conclusion was that she prefers not to believe in God however she has some belief in God but claims to be atheist. Comments welcomed

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

One of my lecturers at university was an atheist, having a conversation with her she revealed that if she witnesses a ghost something or supernatural she will choose to ignore and say that it was her imagination. In return I said to her that if a miricale happened in her life would she also choose to ignore it?.My conclusion was that she prefers not to believe in God however she has some belief in God but claims to be atheist. Comments welcomed

I read something like that in a book of Harun Yahya. He mentions a famous atheist, I think he was a scientist, saying that clearly. Something like: I don't believe in a Creator not because of I have evidences for my belief, but because I don't want to believe in it.

[جوري]

Can you explain why exactly God can be eternal, while the universe cannot be?

It is a matter of physics which you can't apply to God since God from the description he has of himself is outside of time and space!..
obviously there are enough theories out there floating about a big bang and a big crunch physicist Professor Stephen Hawking has argued that the universe eventually will stop expanding and then implode under the force of gravity, destroying all life.

http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-.../dp/0553380168

and I am well aware of other theories floating contradicting his own and other great minds on the matter like Einstein.. so at the end of the day it comes down to your beliefs. since there isn't one theory that is accepted as irrefutable above all.. Also that is if we are to consider and accept that gravity is the only force acting upon the universe which in all likely hood isn't.. given the ambiguity of the start there is no point to deny that the end can be and will be equally bewildering. Planets die, so do stars, and in all likelihood so will our middle aged sun.. and I guarantee all of us will too.. If you're doomed to die then logic would dictate that you're not eternal.

What is a light cone?

Since the observed properties of light were so vastly important in reshaping the mathematical models of space and time in Special Relativity, the propagation of light occupies a very special place in this model.

Relativists like to speak of the behavior of light in terms of light cones. Light cones come in two kinds: past light cones and future light cones.

The future light cone of a spacetime event E consists of all the paths of light that begin at E and travel into the future. One could imagine a flash of light at event E. The future light cone of E would be everywhere the flash went in space and time after leaving E.

In one time and one space dimension, light cones are lines in spacetime. The future light cone of event E is shown in the figure as the blue diagonal lines to the future of E.

The past light cone of a spacetime event E consists of all the paths of light that begin at E and travel into the past. The past light cone of E would be similar to flashes of light all converging at the event E. The past light cone of event E is shown in the figure as the pink diagonal lines to the past of E.
http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people...cia/causb.html

Light cone or God, there is no denying that a strong force has managed and dictated our laws of physics and will continue to govern them whether atheists choose to acknowledge or not!

all the best

[جوري]

But to answer your original Q..
I don't see how there can be any room for doubt using the laws of probability alone.. it would take a transfinite number of unidirectional events in one positive direction to put one being together from a proposed single cell and then do it another transfinite number over for every living organism characterized by voluntary movement not excluding the positions and and relations of planets and stars in our universe and their movement....

and hence religiosity and true knowledge comes to those who reflect:

28 and [as] there are in men, and in crawling beasts, and in cattle, too, many hues? Of all His servants, only such as are endowed with knowledge stand [truly] in awe of God: [for they alone comprehend that,] verily, God is almighty, much-forgiving.


all the best

[math]

Well, logically, if you as an agnostic assume that God exists and created all that exists then the rest is really an easy conclusion to come to.

Sure, but you cannot assume that, because this argument was used to *prove* the existence of God.

[Abdu-l-Majeed]

Sure, but you cannot assume that, because this argument was used to *prove* the existence of God.

But you can assume God doesn't exist, and see the contradcition.

By the way, if you really want to know something more about this, Harun Yahya's book Allah is knows through reason. You can read it online, or download it in PDF.

[abdullah_001]

Sure, but you cannot assume that, because this argument was used to *prove* the existence of God.

No, this argument was used to prove that God is eternal not that he exists or not. If you read your original post, you asked how can we prove whether God is eternal or not, you didn't ask proof for the existence of God. Second, the way you worded your question was very interesting to me because rather than asking the existence of God, you asked for the proof that God is eternal which lead me to believe you already think (or assume to the very least) that God exists and hence why i started my post with, "Well, logically, if you as an agnostic assume that God exists..." That was our common ground.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you math;

Sure, but you cannot assume that, because this argument was used to *prove* the existence of God

The creation of the universe is history and we cannot change what has happened in the past. Either God created the universe and life and he exists fully and totally, or there is no God. One of those statements is true.

If there is an all powerful God he has to be the most important thing in my life, he is the creator, and there is a need to search for God and a purpose in life.

In the spirit of searching for a loving, forgiving and merciful God

Eric

[math]

No, this argument was used to prove that God is eternal not that he exists or not. If you read your original post, you asked how can we prove whether God is eternal or not, you didn't ask proof for the existence of God. Second, the way you worded your question was very interesting to me because rather than asking the existence of God, you asked for the proof that God is eternal which lead me to believe you already think (or assume to the very least) that God exists and hence why i started my post with, "Well, logically, if you as an agnostic assume that God exists..." That was our common ground.

I think you misunderstood me; perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I was rather wondering why the same intuitive argument 'physical things can't create themselves' wouldn't also hold for non-physical entities.

[abdullah_001]

I think you misunderstood me; perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I was rather wondering why the same intuitive argument 'physical things can't create themselves' wouldn't also hold for non-physical entities.

because, for assumption's sake (auzubillah), if a non-physical entity that created everything was itself created then it wouldn't by definition be God. Second, if there was another entity that created this non-physical entity, then it wouldn't be all-powerful. Think about it, if the first one's will subjugated the second entity, it would mean that the second is not only not all-powerful but also that the second entity is only a mere creation. If all of the creation was created then it implies that at some point there was nothing, hence everything we see and everything we do not see came into existence at some point out of nothing. If so then there can be no two non-physical entities that could be the creator there could only be one.

I hope it wasn't confusing.