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Redeemed
07-01-2009, 08:12 PM
Christians believe the Bible. According to the Holy Bible, Jesus was without sin. He became sin for us (His death on the cross) so that we won't have to be judged for our sin. He is the only one who could do this because he had no sin. He took the punishment for us.

Christians believe that they cannot earn there way to salvation and righteousness with God. They don't trust in following the law or commandments. That is not to say they don't obey them. They do, but we know it cannot save us. For by faith are you saved through God's grace. It is a gift not of works otherwise we can take the credit for our own salvation. Eph 2: 8,9. We believe in praying without ceasing.

We believe that putting our faith in Jesus alone and with God's grace we are saved from spiritual death. We believe it was God's plan from the beginning. Jesus is the word of God who became flesh. Jesus is the light of the world. We believe He is comming back to judge the living and the dead, and that there is no other way for man to have a right relationship with God.[/QUOTE]
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'Abd-al Latif
07-02-2009, 05:07 PM
Muslims believe: 1 God with no intermediaries or partners who share in His dominion (i.e. no man-god, no one dieing, no one inbetween, Just god Almighty Alone) worship him. Simple.
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Follower
07-02-2009, 06:24 PM
We also believe that because Jesus died to pay our debt we can reach heaven- without Jesus no one is capable of doing enough good deeds to pay the debt of sin.
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Grace Seeker
07-02-2009, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
We also believe that because Jesus died to pay our debt we can reach heaven- without Jesus no one is capable of doing enough good deeds to pay the debt of sin.
Interestingly, that particular expression of the atonement, though a dominant theme in protestant theology today, is just one of many ways in which it is stated and not even the original way it was expressed by the likes of Calvin and Luther.
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'Abd-al Latif
07-02-2009, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
We also believe that because Jesus died to pay our debt we can reach heaven- without Jesus no one is capable of doing enough good deeds to pay the debt of sin.
Hehehehe.

Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by God but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"
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islamlover_girl
07-02-2009, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
We also believe that because Jesus died to pay our debt we can reach heaven- without Jesus no one is capable of doing enough good deeds to pay the debt of sin.
1-We don`t believe that jesus died

(That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise )
Quran translation 4 :157

2-Without Allah`s mercy no one is capable of doing enough good deeds to pay the debt of sin ,so we ask him for his mercy and forgivness all the time,we don`t believe that anybody can pay for other`s sin.

Say: "Shall I seek for (my) Cherisher other than Allah, when He is the Cherisher of all things (that exist)? Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself: no bearer of burdens can bear of burdens can bear the burden of another. Your goal in the end is towards Allah. He will tell you the truth of the things wherein ye disputed."Quran translation 6:164
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AntiKarateKid
07-02-2009, 11:38 PM
Sis, I don't think this is a debate thread. Or is it?
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Al Ansari
07-09-2009, 01:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
We also believe that because Jesus died to pay our debt we can reach heaven- without Jesus no one is capable of doing enough good deeds to pay the debt of sin.

In the name of Allaah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

So, with Jesus (peace be upon him) people are able to do enough good deeds to enter heaven?

I do not believe that is correct according to Christian theology I have encountered. If you don't believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) as Lord and Savior then you are doomed. Good deeds as I have seen it are not emphasized when being told to come to Jesus (peace be upon him). It is always----just 'believe'.
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Walter
07-09-2009, 05:21 PM
Dear Al Ansari:

We do not completely understand all of the ramifications of Jesus’ death and resurrection; however, I am sure that we will one day.

In the old covenant that God had with mankind, sinful men could not approach such a Holy God, so their sin had to be atoned. God stated that blood had to be shed in order that sin could be atoned. It was the blood of sheep and other animals that was shed. The individual actually had to kill the animal himself, which should have made him appreciate the value of the sacrifice and the damaging consequences of his sin. Unfortunately, it simply became a ritual which appeared to have little long-term effect on their behaviour.

In the new covenant that God has with mankind, Jesus was the Messiah who atoned (made amends) for the sins of all men through His death. In this new covenant that mankind now has with God, we can approach Him directly and ask for forgiveness. We can never earn this forgiveness, but he can graciously grant it. Once forgiven, we can become his adopted children, and cultivate a friendship with God.

God has given Jesus the right to judge the world at the end of the age. At this time, those who rejected the Messiah will be turned away to everlasting punishment, while others will receive rewards for their good deeds done while on the Earth.

Regards,
Grenville
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Zafran
07-09-2009, 06:21 PM
I also wanted to ask what do christains believe about the holy ghost coming in to people - and then people start to dancing, moving around, rolling etc - whats that all about????

peace
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AntiKarateKid
07-09-2009, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Dear Al Ansari:

We do not completely understand all of the ramifications of Jesus’ death and resurrection; however, I am sure that we will one day.

In the old covenant that God had with mankind, sinful men could not approach such a Holy God, so their sin had to be atoned. God stated that blood had to be shed in order that sin could be atoned. It was the blood of sheep and other animals that was shed. The individual actually had to kill the animal himself, which should have made him appreciate the value of the sacrifice and the damaging consequences of his sin. Unfortunately, it simply became a ritual which appeared to have little long-term effect on their behaviour.

In the new covenant that God has with mankind, Jesus was the Messiah who atoned (made amends) for the sins of all men through His death. In this new covenant that mankind now has with God, we can approach Him directly and ask for forgiveness. We can never earn this forgiveness, but he can graciously grant it. Once forgiven, we can become his adopted children, and cultivate a friendship with God.

God has given Jesus the right to judge the world at the end of the age. At this time, those who rejected the Messiah will be turned away to everlasting punishment, while others will receive rewards for their good deeds done while on the Earth.

Regards,
Grenville
Then how come blood atonement is mentioned nowhere in the Quran, hadiths, or any shred of Islamic history? No Muslim ever believed that you needed to have blood atonement for forgiveness and the Prophet pbuh never mentioned anything about it.
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_ALI_
07-10-2009, 03:38 PM
Salam alapiana1
Christians believe the Bible.
Now that is something I don't get. Majority of authors of the Bible are unknown, why do Christians believe in it when they don't know who wrote it. And it has so many internal contradictions, conflictions with modern science
(http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm), even passages which I cannot read in front of my mother or my sister. Why should a person believe in the Bible? Quran has none of those problems, so why should I choose the Bible instead of the Quran?
According to the Holy Bible, Jesus was without sin.
I would like to know where the Bible says that(I'm not implying that it doesn't)
He became sin for us (His death on the cross) so that we won't have to be judged for our sin. He is the only one who could do this because he had no sin. He took the punishment for us.
So all of us have the original sin because of what Adam did but Jesus sacrificed himself for Christians so now Christians are no longer sinful. Let me give you an example, if a cop comes to me, handcuffs me and then tells me that my grandfather robbed a jewelery store and I am going to jail for that, is that justified? And then after a while he says that okay, you're free to go. We caught your father, he is will go to jail for that. Now that is not justified even according to us, so how can God, the most Just, can act similar to that cop? In Islam however, there is no concept of original sin and forgiveness of sin. Instead of quoting Quran/hadith, I will quote from the book you believe to be the word of God to give the concept of forgiveness in Quran
EZEKIEL 18
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Christians believe that they cannot earn there way to salvation and righteousness with God. They don't trust in following the law or commandments. That is not to say they don't obey them. They do, but we know it cannot save us. For by faith are you saved through God's grace. It is a gift not of works otherwise we can take the credit for our own salvation. Eph 2: 8,9. We believe in praying without ceasing.
I agree that deeds alone cannot save us. We do require God's mercy according to the following hadith
Abu Huraira reported Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) as saying: None amongst you would attain salvation purely because of his deeds. A person said: Allaah's Messenger, even you also. Thereupon he said: Yes. Not even I, but that Allaah wraps me in Mercy, but you should act with moderation. This badith has been transmitted on the authority of Bukair b. al-Ashajj with a slight variation of wording
The difference is that God according to Islam does not require a sacrifice. He has the power to forgive sins without sacrifices. As for obeying commandments, that is also a mystery to me. Why shouldn't I steal when my sins have been paid for by Jesus? And ultimately, will Christian thieves be punished? Will Christian murderers be punished? Will Hitler and Stalin go to heaven? In Islam, God is very kind but He is also Just. Imagine on the day of judgement, a rapist goes to heaven just because he believed that Jesus was crucified for his sins and the woman who was raped is pleading for justice, which is not provided. Does that sound like the day of Judgement to you?
We believe that putting our faith in Jesus alone and with God's grace we are saved from spiritual death.
Let's see what Jesus said regarding being saved from spiritual death i.e getting eternal life
Mathew 19
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He did not say that to get to heaven believe that I will be crucified for your sins. He did not say that to get to heaven you should believe that I am God. He simply said, keep the commandments. Considering that, I think Muslims have a good chance of getting into heaven according to the Bible since instead of saying deeds are meaningless, they try to keep the commandments.

We believe it was God's plan from the beginning. Jesus is the word of God who became flesh.
Jesus was the word of God in the sense that he received revelations from God. I agree with that.
Jesus is the light of the world.We believe He is comming back to judge the living and the dead,
Muslims believe that one of his reasons of coming back is to correct the Christians. The Bible also says that
Mathew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
and that there is no other way for man to have a right relationship with God.
I agree that at the time of Jesus, there was no other way for man to have a right relationship with God. Like at the time of Moses, there was no other way. You can only follow Moses and no one else. At the time of Noah, all you had to do was to get into the Ark. Prayers/fasts were meaningless unless you were obeying Noah. Similarly now is the time of Muhammad. There is no other way to have a right relationship with God other than that of prophet Muhammad.
Peace
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Walter
07-10-2009, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Then how come blood atonement is mentioned nowhere in the Quran, hadiths, or any shred of Islamic history? No Muslim ever believed that you needed to have blood atonement for forgiveness and the Prophet pbuh never mentioned anything about it.
Dear AKK:
The Qur’an teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, and that believers are to believe the revelation sent to the prophets who came before Mohammed. Perhaps the most authenticated book in the Bible is the work of prophet Isaiah. Hear him.

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth. (Isaiah 53:5-7)

AKK, I realize that the Christian religious traditions of the trinity have resulted in the reaction of Islamic religious tradition to limit Jesus to “just a messenger”. Even though the Qur’an clearly teaches that He is the Messiah, and instructs believers to believe the revelation sent before, including the Gospel, in order to better understand these concepts. Please do not reject or deny the Messiah because of other people’s speculative opinions about the nature of Jesus, for it is He to whom we must all stand before and give an account at the end of the age. May you stand confidently AKK.

Regards,
Grenville
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suffiyan007
07-10-2009, 04:25 PM
Trinity that is really doesn't make sense.
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Walter
07-10-2009, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
Trinity that is really doesn't make sense.
Yes Suffiyan007:

But do not let the errors of others keep you from the Messiah.

Regards,
Grenville
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suffiyan007
07-10-2009, 04:28 PM
how can God transform to Holy Spirit and The Son....For a God to come to the World need a time and space for God to entered the world whom he created.
None of the Creature similar to God...if a creature same strength with God...then there is no God who created the world and while should we Die....
If no God there for us we will live forever in the World.
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Jenny
07-10-2009, 06:24 PM
No,no :-) The Holy Ghost is a gift from God.It gives God`s grace,His forgiving of our sins,more wisdom in looking for God.
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Jenny
07-10-2009, 06:27 PM
Come on :-) God is one,and The Holy Spirit is special God`s blessing.God has sent The Holy Spirit to Jesus,because without The Holy Spirit Jesus would be unable to do his mission.
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Tony
07-10-2009, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
Come on :-) God is one,and The Holy Spirit is special God`s blessing.God has sent The Holy Spirit to Jesus,because without The Holy Spirit Jesus would be unable to do his mission.
but Jesus is God for a christian, why would God need to send God a holy spirit ?
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glo
07-10-2009, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tony
but Jesus is God for a christian, why would God need to send God a holy spirit ?
Because whilst Jesus walked this earth in human form he had to rely on his Father and God's Spirit for strength and power. This is evident in many of his prayers and conversations with the Father.
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Tony
07-10-2009, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Because whilst Jesus walked this earth in human form he had to rely on his Father and God's Spirit for strength and power. This is evident in many of his prayers and conversations with the Father.
ok Glo but still doesnt make sense to me, but as im no good at debating will leave it there
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Jenny
07-10-2009, 07:00 PM
It depends.God is one and only.He gave The Holy Ghost to Jesus,to enable him to fulfil his mission.The Holy Ghost is a God`s power and God`s way of acting in Jesus,which we admire in Trinity.
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Jenny
07-10-2009, 07:01 PM
Jesus is not God.He never described himself as God.He was always admitting,that God is in heaven and was praying to Him.
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Tony
07-10-2009, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
Jesus is not God.
You sound like a Muslim already :D
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Zafran
07-10-2009, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jenny
Jesus is not God.He never described himself as God.He was always admitting,that God is in heaven and was praying to Him.

I'm sure a lot of christians would disagree with you - although I agree with you.
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suffiyan007
07-11-2009, 12:45 AM
jenny, i believe that u somehow one day will find an answer....!insyaallah....
even the Jews has known that Muhammad SAW/Ahmad SAW.....was stated in ancient jews holy books...like Torah,injil,Zabur psalm and Quran...there closing of the prophethood is Muhammad SAW...in jesus Gospel there is state a there have a, jesus speaks to his disciples that the last human after Me is a son of man,named Muhammad SAW....was the last prophet of the mankind.Even Adam A.S...the first human in the world...also know that the Muhammad SAW soul was made in the early stage before Adam A.S..God is grEat and powErful...!Allahu akbar.
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suffiyan007
07-11-2009, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
Jesus is not God.He never described himself as God.He was always admitting,that God is in heaven and was praying to Him.


i understand u understand the concept...but Not much Christian Brothers and sisters understand the concept, i know that the messiah is bringing the True christianity but there lots of change in the book of God, Injeel or injil given to Jesus A.S....
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Jenny
07-11-2009, 08:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tony
You sound like a Muslim already :D
Maybe I sound,but I`m not.I simply read The Bible and I just see,what is written,and what is not.
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suffiyan007
07-11-2009, 12:28 PM
u r right...u should find an answer...about the God...get a clear mind answer...insyaallah....
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Al Ansari
07-11-2009, 02:27 PM
Grenville,

There is no intermediary between God and His creation. God is the most merciful and He hears the supplicant whenever he calls on Him. God is always there to listen to sincere repentance and never turns away from the sincere. There is no need to accept any blood sacrifice. We are told that no matter how many good deeds you have done it will still prove insufficient to acquire for oneself paradise. We can only hope in the mercy of God alone.

That being said:

You will also notice that there are three types of atonement given for sin in the OT. The only atonement was not limited to blood sacrifice; i.e. charity, repentance, and blood sacrifice.

Leviticus 17:11:
"This is because the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

Is the above said verse justification for what you have stated about the need for blood atonement?

***Keep in mind also that the blood sacrifice was only required for unintentional sins.

Numbers 15:27-31

If a person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one-year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who goes astray when he sins unintentionally, making atonement for him that he may be forgiven . . . . The person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people, because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be on him.

Jesus could not die for anyone's sins, whether committed intentionally or not. To begin with, the Jews were strictly prohibited from offering human sacrifices. The Bible warns the Jews that it is a grave sin to bring a human being as a sacrifice. In the Book of Leviticus, only distinct species of animals are permitted for use in blood sacrifices.

The ancient pagan religions promoted the same idea about atonement as Christians do today (e.g. Molech). They would joyfully offer a child into the fires of their sacrificial offering in order to expiate their sins and appease the gods. Hmmm… why would a child sacrifice be used in this pagan ritual rather than an adult? The reason is because a child is thoroughly innocent of sin. A child, they reasoned, could not have committed sin and therefore mirrored the animal sacrifice which also had to be unblemished

Hosea 14:2-3 states,

Take words with you, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, "Take away all iniquity; receive us graciously, for we will render for bulls the offering of our lips."

No man can atone for the sins of another, each person is accountable for their own works. I believe Ezekiel Chapter 13 mentions that.
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Al Ansari
07-11-2009, 02:39 PM
Bismillah

as salaamu 'alaikum brothers and sisters,

I just wanted to take note that Christians are very, very adamant as you well already know about the incarnation of God into man and 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) being both God and man.

About 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) according to the Bible, God created 'Isa (as) with his own hand before anything else was created. Through 'Isa (as) Christians mention the world was made. So, it is now God's will that we worship 'Isa (as) in order to please God. I mean, I was speaking to a Christian about the verses in the Bible where 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) says, "...the father is greater than I..." and a bunch of other verses where 'Isa (as) makes distinctions between who is giving him this power. The Christian agreed saying, you are right all power belongs to the father because they are naturally all one in the same. It was a sly response.

My question is this:

IF GOD WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO HUMANITY THAT HE WAS ONE. THAT HE HAD NO PARTNER AND NO THREE DIMENSIONAL MAKE UP. THAT HE WAS THE ONLY ONE TO BE WORSHIPPED, WHAT WOULD BE SUFFICIENT FOR THE CHRISTIAN TO NEGLECT THIS TRINITARIAN BELIEF?

OBVIOUSLY, GOD SAYING HE IS ONE THROUGHOUT HUMANITY WAS UNDERSTOOD AND MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS 'ONE AND ONLY' AS A CHILD WOULD HOLD UP ONE FINGER IF YOU ASK THEM TO HOLD UP ONE FINGER. REMEMBER THAT THE PROPHET (PBUT) WERE NOT GREEK PHILOSPHERS, THEY CAME WITH A SIMPLE MESSAGE FOR SIMPLE PEOPLE ALIKE. IF A BELIEF AS THE TRINITY WAS SO VITAL--GOD WOULD HAVE MADE IT CLEAR AS HE DID ABOUT HI ONENESS.

THE ONLY IDEAS THAT CHRISTIANS PUT FOWARD ABOUT 'ISA'S (AS) PRE-EXISTENCE COMES FROM OTHERS WHO WRITE ABOUT IT. IT DOES NOT COME FROM 'ISA (AS). A MYSTICISM IS CREATED AND THEN THE ENTIRE BOOK IS SEEN THROUGH THE CHANNEL OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TAKE ON 'ISA (AS).


as 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) says, ".....INNEE ABDULLAAH..." I AM A SERVANT OF ALLAAH.

Allaah knows best
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glo
07-11-2009, 07:32 PM
Greetings, Al Ansari

These are Jesus' own words:

"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
I and the Father are one."
(John 10:27-30)
God does indeed know best, and with him all things are possible.
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Grace Seeker
07-12-2009, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Ansari
Bismillah

as salaamu 'alaikum brothers and sisters,

I just wanted to take note that Christians are very, very adamant as you well already know about the incarnation of God into man and 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) being both God and man.

About 'Isa ibn Maryam (as) according to the Bible, God created 'Isa (as) with his own hand before anything else was created.
Not quite. With respects to Jenny who is saying something quite different with regard to Jesus than what I believe is found in the Bible, the historic teaching of the Church is not so much that God made Jesus, but that God became incarnate in Jesus. There is a difference.

(I can go on if you like, but I don't promise that doing so will not be more confusing for it requires understanding how one can speak of God the Son without speaking of the human being Jesus.)
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Grace Seeker
07-12-2009, 01:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by _ALI_

According to the Holy Bible, Jesus was without sin.
I would like to know where the Bible says that(I'm not implying that it doesn't)
Hebrews 4:14-15
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
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suffiyan007
07-12-2009, 01:20 AM
is that mother mary the mother of the world....also without sin..
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Grace Seeker
07-12-2009, 02:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
is that mother mary the mother of the world....also without sin..
Mother of the world? What are you talking about?

As far as Mary being without sin, that is a doctrine that was introduced in the Catholic church as an interpretation they believe can be inferred from the scriptures, but no where is it explicitly mentioned and to the best of my knowledge no one other than Catholics believe it.
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AntiKarateKid
07-12-2009, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Greetings, Al Ansari

These are Jesus' own words:



God does indeed know best, and with him all things are possible.
"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

Glo, as you can see from the above verse (there are more but its late here) that "I and the father are one" is speaking about one in purpose. But if you insist on interpreting that as a sign of divinity, then we are all just as divine as Jesus pbuh eh?
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Grace Seeker
07-12-2009, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Glo, as you can see from the above verse (there are more but its late here) that "I and the father are one" is speaking about one in purpose. But if you insist on interpreting that as a sign of divinity, then we are all just as divine as Jesus pbuh eh?
I disagree. The way that Jesus used it as an absolute statement of comingling his identity with the Father is different from the metaphorical way in which Paul used it. However, the Johannian passage is more on point. And here I think that Jesus is indeed talking about human beings sharing in the divine nature. Not in our own power, but because of the work of Christ that he allows to be appropriated into our lives by faith. We are not divine, but we were created in the divine image and when that is restored in us, then are able to return to full fellowship with God was we were intended to live with him from the beginning. This new communion that we have with God in Jesus Christ is very similar to the nature of the divine union that already exists within the Godhead where the three persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are all one.
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AntiKarateKid
07-12-2009, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Hebrews 4:14-15
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
Why is such a big deal made about the biblical view of him without sin? Does it mean they have this big sign above his head saying "I don't have sin so gimme yours!"

Person A: See that guy with long hair there?
Person B: Yeah?
Person A: He got no sin.
Person B: Nice! Just the man I can dump my fornication sins on.
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Follower
07-13-2009, 12:59 PM
"So, with Jesus (peace be upon him) people are able to do enough good deeds to enter heaven?"

I'm not sure you can say that- your salvation does not come about by the deeds. It is not by your actions that you win grace. It is a Gift of Grace from GOD - Jesus has paid that debt that sin creates.

We know that GOD is the author and that He inspired man to write He message down- what He wanted man to know.

The horrific events of the Old Testment is our past, our history showing why we need Jesus.

The so called contradictions are in fact complementary- the synoptic Gospel- appear to be differences until you dig deeper. Many verses of the Holy Bible can be taken at face value but many also have even deeper richer meaning that come out the more you read the Holy Bible.

I believe that for you to truly understand the Quran you must read the Holy Bible.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
07-14-2009, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Follower
"So, with Jesus (peace be upon him) people are able to do enough good deeds to enter heaven?"

I'm not sure you can say that- your salvation does not come about by the deeds. It is not by your actions that you win grace. It is a Gift of Grace from GOD - Jesus has paid that debt that sin creates.

We know that GOD is the author and that He inspired man to write He message down- what He wanted man to know.

The horrific events of the Old Testment is our past, our history showing why we need Jesus.

The so called contradictions are in fact complementary- the synoptic Gospel- appear to be differences until you dig deeper. Many verses of the Holy Bible can be taken at face value but many also have even deeper richer meaning that come out the more you read the Holy Bible.

I believe that for you to truly understand the Quran you must read the Holy Bible.
Complementary huh...

Deuteronomy 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Isaiah 14:21
Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.


Exodus 33:11
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time.


I'm failing to see their complementary relationship. This isn't counting the numerical errors or the switching of God with Satan in a similar verse errors. Or are you saying that tends of thousands of Bible manuscripts that differ in various degrees are complementary?
Reply

Al Ansari
07-14-2009, 03:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Greetings, Al Ansari

These are Jesus' own words:

God does indeed know best, and with him all things are possible.

In the name of Allaah


Glo,

The verse before the aformentioned states:

(Verse 29) "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

or John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."


The verse that you have put forth, it is evident that Jesus (peace be upon him) and God are one in purpose and not essence. Take the verse where Jesus (peace be upon him) according to the Bible prays for the believers:

"Jesus Prays for All Believers
(20)"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, (21)that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. (22)I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are
one:"


Yes, God can do anything He pleases, however, it states in Numbers 23:19,

New International Version (©1984)

"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"


And Allaah knows best
Reply

Al Ansari
07-14-2009, 03:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Not quite. With respects to Jenny who is saying something quite different with regard to Jesus than what I believe is found in the Bible, the historic teaching of the Church is not so much that God made Jesus, but that God became incarnate in Jesus. There is a difference.

(I can go on if you like, but I don't promise that doing so will not be more confusing for it requires understanding how one can speak of God the Son without speaking of the human being Jesus.)
You are correct, there is a difference. I have read much of the history, nonetheless, I would like you to elaborate on the topic.
Reply

Al Ansari
07-14-2009, 03:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Hebrews 4:14-15
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
Ali,

Keep in mind that none of the Anbiyah of Allaah sinned. They were the best of creation.

Wa Allaahu alim






Graceseeker,


Also, I wanted to inquire who was speaking in this verse?
Reply

Al Ansari
07-14-2009, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
"For as the (human) body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many."

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

Glo, as you can see from the above verse (there are more but its late here) that "I and the father are one" is speaking about one in purpose. But if you insist on interpreting that as a sign of divinity, then we are all just as divine as Jesus pbuh eh?
as salaamu 'alaikum akhi,

Good post. JazakAllaahu Khair.
Reply

Jon Paul
07-16-2009, 07:53 PM
Hello, everyone!

This should be fun. I believe that a thread on what Christian's believe is quite erroneous in the long run. There are many branches within Christianity and differing theological views.

I am a Roman Catholic. There is quite alot going on in this thread, so I am just going to jump right in. Anything you want to know about the Catholic Church, I will do my best to answer you. That goes for Protestants as well.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As far as Mary being without sin, that is a doctrine that was introduced in the Catholic church as an interpretation they believe can be inferred from the scriptures, but no where is it explicitly mentioned and to the best of my knowledge no one other than Catholics believe it.
Well, this is debatable. The Church for a start does not rely soley on scripture in anything. Second, I believe the Eastern Orthodox also believe in a sinless Mary. However they do not believe in the Immaculate Conception. I think their views are more in line with Thomas Aquinas. They believe Mary was filled with Sanctifying Grace after conception, where as the Catholic Church believe that, in Christ's foreknowledge, he applies the merits He earned for our salvation to Mary at the moment of her conception, so she was born without Original Sin.

It is a common misconception that Catholics believe Mary did not need a saviour, this is not the case, as she was only saved by the merits of Jesus Christ. He simply saved her in a more perfect manner.

Regards,
JP.
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-17-2009, 03:12 PM
Thank-you for the additional elucidating comments.
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