Sacrifice or execution

[Oleander]

Did Jesus or any of his desciple thought his death was sacrifice for sin?

I don't see any who thought this way untill the arrival of Paul.

My question to Christians on this board: If Jesus was sent to die for the sin of the world, and himself said:(I said nothing in secret), then why those desciples were not aware of his death as sacrifice for sin, and only was execution.

[glo]

Hi Oleander

I think for Christians today it is easy to 'see the full picture' of Jesus' life, death and resurrection - that's because we know the full story.

His disciples where in the middle of the story, so to speak, and I think they didn't truly understand Jesus' purpose and mission until he appeared to them after his death on the cross.

Jesus knew how he was going to die, he spoke about it to his followers and he also spoke about it in terms of sacrifice.
You do not have to wait until the letters of Paul to read about Jesus' sacrifice. It is right there in the gospels.

Here Jesus speaks very clearly about sacrificing his life of his own will:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
[...]
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again." (John 10:11;17-18)

He makes a reference in the parable of the vineyard:

"Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.'

"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. (Luke 20:13-15)

He is most clear in his last hours, which he spends talking to his disciples. Read John 12-17, if you like.
Here is just one example:

Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. (John 12:23-25)

Despite having been told all this the disciples must have been devastated when Jesus dies on the cross.
I can only begin to guess the hopelessness they must have felt: their leader, the one who had promised to bring God's kingdom; executed, dead, all hope lost ...!

Only when he rose from the dead and appeared to them can they have begun to grasp the truth.
I guess Thomas sums it up quite nicely:

Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:24-29)

[rk9414]

This is a good lecture related to the topic from an Islamic perspective by Dr. Gerald Dirks, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuM-x...e=channel_page

[AntiKarateKid]

Glo.

Funny thing about that whole "My Lord and my God" episode...

The words kyrios and theos that he used may not be what you think Glo. Kyrios is a title of honor which was used for other people in the Bible also. As for theos, among it's meanings are judge, magistrate, and god's representative. Moreover, theos when defined as "god" was used in reference to the devil.

In whom the god (THEOS) of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not.

More to come later, but I will say this Glo, it is strange that you would say that Christians know the whole story when it took you 200 + years after Jesus pbuh's death to say that he was god and all the other early Christians who didn't say that were wrong.

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[Oleander]

Hi Oleander

I think for Christians today it is easy to 'see the full picture' of Jesus' life, death and resurrection - that's because we know the full story.

His disciples where in the middle of the story, so to speak, and I think they didn't truly understand Jesus' purpose and mission until he appeared to them after his death on the cross.

>>>This is not a start, to accuse the disciples of not understanding.

At least we know one (Peter), who Jesus claim his knowledge comes from God not from any man.

Jesus knew how he was going to die, he spoke about it to his followers and he also spoke about it in terms of sacrifice.


>>>No he didn't, when the Jews stone him, he said:Why you want to kill me, a man who told you the truth.

You do not have to wait until the letters of Paul to read about Jesus' sacrifice. It is right there in the gospels.

>>>Nowhere we been told Jesus came to die for our sin.

Here Jesus speaks very clearly about sacrificing his life of his own will:


He makes a reference in the parable of the vineyard:

>>>Please just look at it again. The owner sent the son to be killed or respected?


He is most clear in his last hours, which he spends talking to his disciples. Read John 12-17, if you like.
Here is just one example:

>>>The last hours, when he hide himself in the garden crying, and begging God to not forsake him??


Despite having been told all this the disciples must have been devastated when Jesus dies on the cross.


>>>None of them was present.
I can only begin to guess the hopelessness they must have felt: their leader, the one who had promised to bring God's kingdom; executed, dead, all hope lost ...!

>>>You know why they were sad? Because They never been told by Jesus or their scripture about the dying christ as a sacrifice.

Only when he rose from the dead and appeared to them can they have begun to grasp the truth.
I guess Thomas sums it up quite nicely:

>>>Another example how his desciples knew nothing about him being a sacrifice for sin.

I see you highlight Thomas saying: My lord and my God.

Q: Did Thomas was wondering If Jesus God or not?

Or, he was wondering if Jesus was killed?

[AntiKarateKid]

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
[...]
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again." (John 10:11;17-18)

No where does that imply the christian doctrine of sacrificing him for sins. Any Prophet would lay down his life for his followers. They can only die if Allah gives them the go ahead or authority to even put down their lives so I can't see how this would support your point Glo. And where is the reference to the vineyard parable? How many other stories are there of self sacrifice in the Bible you could have used?

[glo]

I see you highlight Thomas saying: My lord and my God.

Q: Did Thomas was wondering If Jesus God or not?

Or, he was wondering if Jesus was killed?

Of course I don't know what Thomas was thinking and feeling at the time ... so I can only go by the words he is reported to have spoken.

"My Lord and my God" sounds like a statement to me, not a question.
Especially given that Thomas had previously declared that he would not believe the account of the other apostles of Jesus' return unless he saw him himself, this sounds like an exclamation and an affirmation to me.

As for wondering whether Jesus had really died, again I doubt that ... Thomas specifically touched the wounds to assure himself. The lance wound to Jesus' side had been inflicted by the Roman soldiers to show whether he was dead or not. I don't think there is much doubt from that account that Jesus had died on the cross.

[Oleander]

[QUOTE=glo;1184428]Of course I don't know what Thomas was thinking and feeling at the time ... so I can only go by the words he is reported to have spoken.

>>>Because you chose to ignore the start of the event.

"My Lord and my God" sounds like a statement to me, not a question.
Especially given that Thomas had previously declared that he would not believe the account of the other apostles of Jesus' return unless he saw him himself, this sounds like an exclamation and an affirmation to me.

>>>That's exactly what you want to hear:My Lord and my God.

Let's togather read the story:

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

(The disciples were glad to see thier leader full of wounds or nothing happen to him?)

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

(Do you see what Thomas was looking for? nails, hands, and Jesus side, not looking to see God in the flesh)

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


(After Jesus show him what he was looking for, he said:

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God!

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

(According to youe doctrine, Jesus should told him, Now you know I am God. Did he?)


glo, did you ever thought or been told why the book of Jhon was written?

Please read below:


30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name


Do you see anywhere John claim his book was written to believe Jesus was God in the flesh, or Jesus was the second member of the trinity?