Is Islam based on faith?

[Hugo]

Your religion is based on faith. In this way, you will be wanting evidence of Heaven and Hell, which you can never get - that is all based on faith. If you are wanting evidence, then you will start looking for evidence of Allah as well (naudhubillah-may Allah protect us from this), and then your mind will become that of an atheists, who says that "nothing is there until proven" and they can never believe that Allah can be proved. Comprehende?

I do not quite understand you point here. Is Islam not based on faith? Do you have have incontrovertible and irrefutable proof that God exists? If so please let us see it.

Mine is a religion of faith just like that of Abraham who left his own country at the call of God and that action was testimony to his faith. He had no Bible, no Qu'ran, just the call of God. Is your faith different to that of Abraham?

[- IqRa -]

Do you have have incontrovertible and irrefutable proof that God exists? If so please let us see it.

This is what I mean. It is from here that people go into the 'Athiest' state of mind.

For me, and for most people that are Muslims, they have been bought up in such a way that the concept of Allah is involved in everything they do, all the actions they carry out, the littlest to the biggest things they do.

Evidence? What evidence will satisfy you people?! Especially regarding the Qur'aan!

- The Scientific Miracles of the Holy Qur'aan
- The Authenticity and Preservation of the Holy Qur'aan
- Jewels from the Qur'aan

and

- The Existence of God

What more will satisfy you?

Nothing.

It is only Allaah who Guides.

And regarding Abraham, the Qur'aan says;

"Ibrahim (Abraham) was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists."
[Qur'aan, Chapter 3, Verse 67]

[Uthman]

Briefly, Islam is indeed a religion of faith, but this faith is backed up by proof. This proof can be found in both the miraculous nature of the Qur'an as well as in the sincerity of Muhammad (pbuh).

[Hugo]

This is what I mean. It is from here that people go into the 'Athiest' state of mind. For me, and for most people that are Muslims, they have been bought up in such a way that the concept of Allah is involved in everything they do, all the actions they carry out, the littlest to the biggest things they do.

Evidence? What evidence will satisfy you people?! Especially regarding the Qur'aan!

- The Existence of God

What more will satisfy you? Nothing. It is only Allaah who Guides.

And regarding Abraham, the Qur'aan says; "Ibrahim (Abraham) was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists."
[B][Qur'aan, Chapter 3, Verse 67]

It will take me a while to look at you references but in the meanwhile I will lave you some questions

1. Are you suggesting we should not even question whether God exists because it might lead us to unbelief - that is not a very challenging position is it?

2. When you speak of proofs (and I will look at you refs) are they like gravity or ohms law that sort of things that is testable by anyone or is it just opinions or views?

3. If it is proof like that of gravity, can you explain why billions do not accept it? That is I cannot avoid gravity but I can avoid God if I wish and therefore it cannot be a proof in any scientific sense.

4. You say God is involved in everything we do and I agree but I do also have difficulties when I consider earthquakes where thousands are killed or flu which strikes indiscriminately, cancer and suffering in general - why does GOD allow it?

5. I cannot quite see how Abraham was a Muslim, he was once described as a Hebrew but that is all and Islam was not mentioned for at least 2,500 years after Abraham died so this claim it fatuous.

6. Finally, you did not answer my question - is Islam a matter of faith or not?

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[- IqRa -]

1. Are you suggesting we should not even question whether God exists because it might lead us to unbelief - that is not a very challenging position is it?

When you have been brought up with the belief of God (Allah). what is their left to challenge? You parents aren't going to tell you something completely ridiculous, are they?

2. When you speak of proofs (and I will look at you refs) are they like gravity or ohms law that sort of things that is testable by anyone or is it just opinions or views?

Scientific proofs in the Qur'aan, proofs all around you and inside you!

3. If it is proof like that of gravity, can you explain why billions do not accept it? That is I cannot avoid gravity but I can avoid God if I wish and therefore it cannot be a proof in any scientific sense.

Which billions do not accept God?

4. You say God is involved in everything we do and I agree but I do also have difficulties when I consider earthquakes where thousands are killed or flu which strikes indiscriminately, cancer and suffering in general - why does GOD allow it?

This has been answered many, many times before; God tests people in many ways, and as much as people stay patient, He will reward them according to their patience in this world, and according to how conent they can stay with His Decree, as His Decree is always for the best of His people/

5. I cannot quite see how Abraham was a Muslim, he was once described as a Hebrew but that is all and Islam was not mentioned for at least 2,500 years after Abraham died so this claim it fatuous.

The Qur'aan mentions miracles in it - when at least 80% of the Qur'an has been proved (scientifically, I heard this in a Dr. Zakir Naik's lecture), then why have any doubt in the remaining 20%?

6. Finally, you did not answer my question - is Islam a matter of faith or not?

Faith and millions of proofs around it - why else do people convert to Islaam?

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

I do not quite understand you point here. Is Islam not based on faith? Do you have have incontrovertible and irrefutable proof that God exists? If so please let us see it.

Mine is a religion of faith just like that of Abraham who left his own country at the call of God and that action was testimony to his faith. He had no Bible, no Qu'ran, just the call of God. Is your faith different to that of Abraham?

Every belief/stance is to an extent based on faith. But what you need to distributions between blind faith and knowledgeable faith.

Keep in mind also, that Christianity relies on the former more so. A quick contrast.

1. You need to have faith that what that your Bible is accurate even though scholars admit it has errors and you have no original copy.
2. The doctrine of the Trinity is a "mystery" that "noone understands" yet everyone seems to think they can defend.

1. The Quran has been perfectly preserved and we know what we're reading is from the Prophet pbuh whom we follow.
2. The Quranic doctrine is simple and makes perfect sense so that you actually know what you're worshipping.

I'll could think of more but I think you get my gist.

BTW "Muslim" has different meanings. When calling Abraham a "muslim", you are saying that he "submitted to God's will." Which he did by being pious and righteous and obeying Allah's commands.

[Banu_Hashim]

5. I cannot quite see how Abraham was a Muslim, he was once described as a Hebrew but that is all and Islam was not mentioned for at least 2,500 years after Abraham died so this claim it fatuous.

Abraham (peace and blessings be upon him) was a Muslim in the sense that he brought, taught, propagated and believed the same message that all the prophets of Islam brought which is Tawhid and to submit to the will of God.

Etymology of 'Muslim'

1615 (n.), 1777 (adj.), from Arabic muslim "one who submits" (to the faith), from root of alsama "he resigned." Related to Islam (q.v.).

So, yes, Abraham (Ibraheem) alayhis salaam was a Muslim, in the root sense.

[Banu_Hashim]

It is only Allaah who Guides.

Exactly. If the ignorant are blind to the truth that's right in front of them, then that is their problem. It isn't our responsibility to convert, only to spread the message.

[Hugo]

Every belief/stance is to an extent based on faith. But what you need to distributions between blind faith and knowledgeable faith. Keep in mind also, that Christianity relies on the former more so. A quick contrast.

1. You need to have faith that what that your Bible is accurate even though scholars admit it has errors and you have no original copy.
2. The doctrine of the Trinity is a "mystery" that "noone understands" yet everyone seems to think they can defend.

1. The Quran has been perfectly preserved and we know what we're reading is from the Prophet pbuh whom we follow.
2. The Quranic doctrine is simple and makes perfect sense so that you actually know what you're worshipping.

BTW "Muslim" has different meanings. When calling Abraham a "muslim", you are saying that he "submitted to God's will." Which he did by being pious and righteous and obeying Allah's commands.

Some points.

1. Abraham must have had blind faith then since he had nothing but God's call to respond to yet he left what looks like a brilliant civilization.

2. The Bible has a message and it is that that I respond to, it is not blind as I am well aware that it was constructed over a very long period and has suffered various corruptions but to my mind the originals have been reconstructed because of painstainking work over many thousands of ancient manuscripts.

3. Because something is a mystery does not mean it is not true and of course we defend its as a belief. If I argue as you do then consider, we read the Prophet Mohammed had his heart removed and washed with snow - not really a credible story is it yet you blindly accept it without a second thought do you not?

4. I am not sure you really know what you are saying but Muslim doctrine says the Qu'ran is from God not Mohammed, he was just the messenger. Whether it is perfectly preserved is what this thread is about and we shall see how that goes. But as I have said many times, it is what is says that matters.

5. The Christian doctrine make perfect sense to me and billions of others so your argument is of little value. As no doubt communists, Mormons and who knows what can say and will say the same.

[Hugo]

Exactly. If the ignorant are blind to the truth that's right in front of them, then that is their problem. It isn't our responsibility to convert, only to spread the message.

No you are right, its God's place to convince and convert. But to say anyone who does not accept the truth as you see it is ignorant and blind is as blind as any faith I have seen if not paranoid.

[Uthman]

Whether it is perfectly preserved is what this thread is about and we shall see how that goes.

Nope, that is what this thread is about: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...y-quran-6.html. :)

The off-topic posts from that thread were moved to here.

[AntiKarateKid]

1. Abraham must have had blind faith then since he had nothing but God's call to respond to yet he left what looks like a brilliant civilization

.

Allah sent him angels to speak to him and granted him miracles.

2. The Bible has a message and it is that that I respond to, it is not blind as I am well aware that it was constructed over a very long period and has suffered various corruptions but to my mind the originals have been reconstructed because of painstainking work over many thousands of ancient manuscripts.

The originals have been reconstructed?! Only your wishful thinking says so. Your own scholars admit to there being alterations and deletions. Each christian sect accuses the other of adding or taking away verses and you are constantly involved in searching for older and older copies but cant even find one earlier than 400 AD! :enough!:

That's not the attitude of a people with a reconstructed book. (why did it even need reconstructing either?)

3. Because something is a mystery does not mean it is not true and of course we defend its as a belief. If I argue as you do then consider, we read the Prophet Mohammed had his heart removed and washed with snow - not really a credible story is it yet you blindly accept it without a second thought do you not?

It is not a mystery. Allah certainly capable of creating events which serve as powerful metaphors. Moreover my belief doesn't hinge on the event of cleasing the snow any more than it does of how Moses split the seas or turned his staff into a snake. The point is that you are banned from understanding a basic tenet of God. We say he is one. You say he is one in a trinity but you can't understand the trinity so just accept that the trinity is monotheistic!

4. I am not sure you really know what you are saying but Muslim doctrine says the Qu'ran is from God not Mohammed, he was just the messenger. Whether it is perfectly preserved is what this thread is about and we shall see how that goes. But as I have said many times, it is what is says that matters.

There is plenty of evidence from legions of sources both Muslim and non-Muslim that attest to the preservation. Not to mention the oral preservation by thousands upon thousands of the first Muslims that memorized the same words that you seem to conveniently forget.

[

B]5.[/B] The Christian doctrine make perfect sense to me and billions of others so your argument is of little value. As no doubt communists, Mormons and who knows what can say and will say the same.

Good for you. The Hindus say that their books make sense but both of us believe God disagrees. Faith cannot be as blind as theirs.

[AntiKarateKid]

No you are right, its God's place to convince and convert. But to say anyone who does not accept the truth as you see it is ignorant and blind is as blind as any faith I have seen if not paranoid.

This is a joke right?

"That they all might be ****ed WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." - Bible

Of course there are more verses where God condemns, ****s, and chastises those who reject the truth. So... in your words God is paranoid?

[Gubbleknucker]

It is a religion of faith, fear, your upbringings, legitimate spiritual experiences, state mandated participation, the watchmaker argument, whatever...

Briefly, Islam is indeed a religion of faith, but this faith is backed up by proof. This proof can be found in both the miraculous nature of the Qur'an as well as in the sincerity of Muhammad (pbuh).

Briefly, Christianity is indeed a religion of faith, but this faith is backed up by proof. This proof can be found in both the miraculous nature of the New Testament as well as in the universal forgiveness of the Messiah (UYDH).

[- IqRa -]

So... in your words God is paranoid?

Ya Akh...Itta kullah! (Fear Allah) :muddlehea

Again, with regards to "proof", this is exactly what I said in my post before; see this: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1188489

[AntiKarateKid]

It is a religion of faith, fear, your upbringings, legitimate spiritual experiences, state mandated participation, the watchmaker argument, whatever...




Briefly, Christianity is indeed a religion of faith, but this faith is backed up by proof. This proof can be found in both the miraculous nature of the New Testament as well as in the universal forgiveness of the Messiah (UYDH).

As Muslims we believe some parts of the New Testament which fall in line with the Quran are indeed divine. The rest is a bunch of scribal errors, forged manuscripts, and false prophecies written by those who presume themselves to be guided by the Holy Spirit and which the various churches through the centuries couldn't even agree upon.

The last sentence about "proof can be found.... in the universal forgiveness of the Messiah". Is utter nonsense (not to mention unsupported by the Bible because last I checked there was a hell so how is the forgiveness universal?)

Atheist: Show me proof that the Bible is from God.
Person A: Jesus loves all and forgives all!
Atheist: :rollseyes

[Gubbleknucker]

utter nonsense

Good! You got my point!

Also,
UYDH = Unless You Displease Him

[AntiKarateKid]

Good! You got my point!

Also,
UYDH = Unless You Displease Him

Good thing Muslims have better justifications. And I don't understand your comment about UYDH.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Yes, of course it is based on faith - it is a religion afterall! But, it does have sound and logical reasoning behind it.

* Look at the principles of Islamic jurisprudence and how they agree with modern law (rapists, murderers, theives etc are all considered criminals by both systems; only the punishments differ but principally they are the same)

* look at the economics of Islam and how modern banks are adopting them; look at the emphasis on cleanliness, manners and respect in Islam and how the ''free'' world is slowly removing them because of their ''rights''

* look at it's rulings on women and see how they continue to even this day emancipate them.

Heck, there are even hadith that say it is the duty of muslim men and women to learn about their religion ----> if Islam was based purely on faith, why would the teachings encourage us to read deeper into it?

[Basit]

Al-Salam Alaykum,

Islam is based on faith, yes it is, it is the religion which was handed down from the grandfather of humanity which was Adam(puh) until Allah's(swt) last prophet which is Muhammad Mustafa(pbuh).

Islam is also based on obedience and fear to Allah(swt) for he is our master and creator and we are His slaves.

Islam is also based on peace and justice. For it is the religion of peace and Allah(swt) loves those who are just.

Salam!

[Follower]

As Muslims we believe some parts of the New Testament which fall in line with the Quran are indeed divine. The rest is a bunch of scribal errors, forged manuscripts, and false prophecies written by those who presume themselves to be guided by the Holy Spirit and which the various churches through the centuries couldn't even agree upon.

Just because the quran confirms the Gospel doesn't prove that the Gospel is divine.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Anyone who thinks their faith is backed up by proof is actually denying that they have faith at all. You cannot have proof of something that is a matter of faith, since the word faith essentially means belief despite having incomplete information. Some dictionaries even give one definition of faith as "belief that is not based on proof".

I think that Muslims make this bizarre claim that their faith rests on proof more frequently than any other religious believers.

Peace

[Follower]

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Blind faith is superstition. This is not encouraging blind faith:

1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

['Abd-al Latif]

Greetings,

Anyone who thinks their faith is backed up by proof is actually denying that they have faith at all. You cannot have proof of something that is a matter of faith, since the word faith essentially means belief despite having incomplete information. Some dictionaries even give one definition of faith as "belief that is not based on proof".

I think that Muslims make this bizarre claim that their faith rests on proof more frequently than any other religious believers.

Peace

A very limited understanding of a religion. So you honestly believe the vast majorty of the world is following a system that dictates their life without any proofs what-so-ever and that those people follow nothing mythical, irrational, incomplete and uncomfirmed conjuncture? This view in and of it self is irrational and illogical. For someone to have true faith he will have to witness some sort of proof from the real world that his senses can bear witness to. For someone to have mere knowledge of something isn't sufficent, rather he has to experience that which will complete what he believes in order to fully believe.

Faith doesn't mean blind following. Agreed that there are certain things that we do not have complete knowledge or information of but this is the whole part of the test. In order to believe in the unseen one must be convinced of what he has see in or read in his scripture that links or relates with the real world in order to go that extra step and believe in what he cannot see. However this not all of what the Islamic faith is based upon, the amount of evidences that are in Qur'an and Sunnah that relate to real life and scientific facts (not theories or conjectural propositions) only but compliment the fact that Islam is a religion based on factual proof. Facts such as the two rivers that do not meet, Human Embryonic Development, The Clouds and their formation process, structure and a more. Indeed, proof and faith go hand to hand. How can one believe without proof and how can proof not be used to ascertain the truth?

[AntiKarateKid]

I see it this way. I'm trying to find my way to the exit in a building right?

Islam is the only one that gives me directions in English and seems to be right as I follow it down the halls. I don't know the future but I have no reason to expect it be a dead end.

Other religions and atheism are giving me directions in upside down chinese and seem to be pointing me towards the restrooms. There might be an exit in the bathroom... but I'm pretty sure there isn't. :p

[czgibson]

Greetings,

A very limited understanding of a religion. So you honestly believe the vast majorty of the world is following a system that dictates their life without any proofs what-so-ever and that those people follow nothing mythical, irrational, incomplete and uncomfirmed conjuncture?

I didn't really understand the last part, but essentially: yes, mate. I'm a non-believer. Nice to meet you. :)

Islam is the only one that gives me directions in English

But Islam gives you instructions in Arabic... :p

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

CZ do you really believe that reality came about itself and that it's laws made themselves? As in, did their history have a beginning?

Might seem obvious from your profile but I'm interested in it nevertheless.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

CZ do you really believe that reality came about itself and that it's laws made themselves? As in, did their history have a beginning?

As I see it, the answer is: nobody knows. You think you have the answers to these questions, but I don't believe they're right.

In my view, having a wrong answer is not really better than having no answer at all.

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings,


As I see it, the answer is: nobody knows. You think you have the answers to these questions, but I don't believe they're right.

In my view, having a wrong answer is not really better than having no answer at all.

Peace

Hmm. So you have faith that I am wrong?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Hmm. So you have faith that I am wrong?

I've looked at the answers you believe, and for me they don't stack up, so yes.

Peace

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson

I hope you're well. :)

Anyone who thinks their faith is backed up by proof is actually denying that they have faith at all. You cannot have proof of something that is a matter of faith, since the word faith essentially means belief despite having incomplete information. Some dictionaries even give one definition of faith as "belief that is not based on proof".

If I am to go along with the definitions of faith that you have provided, then I would have to retract my earlier statement and I would say that I do not have faith. What I do have is certain knowledge based upon conclusive proof.

I think that Muslims make this bizarre claim that their faith rests on proof more frequently than any other religious believers.

Minus the 'bizarre' part, I would agree with this statement and I would put that down to the fact that our claim is based upon reality whereas the others are not.

Regards

[czgibson]

Greetings Osman,

Greetings czgibson

I hope you're well. :)

Just back from holiday. :) Hope you're doing OK too.

If I am to go along with the definitions of faith that you have provided, then I would have to retract my earlier statement and I would say that I do not have faith.

I am glad you can see the contradiction.

What I do have is certain knowledge based upon conclusive proof.

Do you really have certain knowledge of the unseen? Aren't you taking it on trust?

Minus the 'bizarre' part, I would agree with this statement and I would put that down to the fact that our claim is based upon reality whereas the others are not.

Good one! That's fair enough, although the reason I called it bizarre is the contradiction I mentioned.

Peace

[jeff d]

Praise be to the all merciful Allah (God) I don't necessarily believe that Muslims try more to "prove" that Allah exists, or is in their life. I think we just see more of it being portrayed in the media. Understand, I am a Reverend of the Christian faith, but I stand behind the Nation of Islam, as they are my brethren. God is here for all of his children, not just a select few.
Every Religion is based in faith. Faith is simply a deep seeded knowledge that cannot be changed or manipulated, thus making proof null, void and moot. I pray for all my brethren.....Muslims, Buddhists, Christians....everyone. Why would I do so?? Because it is my Faith.

[HinduIconoclast]

I think Islam is based on logic and then faith plays a great role later on, but the actual base of the religion is logic and reason.

For example, the Islamic Tawheed conception of God is clearly the most logical and most monotheistic of any belief system. Since it rejects illogical concepts such as divine incarnations, the holy trinity, anthropomorphism, etc., it shows that it is based in logic instead of previous religions such as Hinduism and Christianity which have traces or are made up greatly by older traditions with some other new beliefs mixed in. Therefore the Islamic concept of God is the most logical of any faith (same for Judaism since their concept is basically identical).

Also, many ancient peoples performed illogical and abominable practices such as idol-worship, astrology, fortune-telling, palmistry, card-reading, etc. But when the light of truth shines upon these practices, it is apparent that they are all incorrect and superstitious - And of all the religions I have studied, Islam does the best job of discrediting and condemning such practices which is another major reason why Islam is based on logic.

Also, the method of dawa employed by such great da'ees as Zakir Naik, Ahmed Deedat, Yusuf Estes, etc. are logic-based. By that I mean that those da'ees point to the logic of the Islamic concept of Tawheed, the scientific facts within the Qur'an, the health reasons behind why haraam foods are avoided, etc. On the other hand, Christian evangelists try to lure people to Christianity by talking about Christ(PBUH)'s love and being saved from hell by the grace of God, and other such emotional tactics instead of trying to appeal to logic and reason like most Islamic da'ees I have heard do.

[Basit]

Al-Salam Alaykum,

imho, i think there is a difference between belief and faith. belief is believing into something that you think is, i.e. superstitions, existing but in reality they are just make-ups of the mind. faith is believing into something you may not see, hear or touch but you know it is there.

correct me if im wrong, even God shows proof that he is powerful by showing miracles to the people so that they will believe he is really powerful and thus they will have faith in Him. That is why if you ask a Muslim, why are you muslim? then he would answer, because i believe in the one true God. why do you believe Him to be the one true God? then he would answer, Because He alone created the heavens, the earth and everything between them. And he created this and this and he performed this and this.........in short, every question will have an answer because he knows his God is true based on the facts that he witness and knew.

If faith is believing without any evidence/proofs or in short, blind faith, then its like god telling the people that he is god and nothing more to do. then you would ask this man, why is he your god? he would answer, Because he says so. Why do you believe that he is god? he would answer, because he says so. Why did he say that he is god? he would not be able to answer because he dont know anything about his god.




May Allah, subhanah wa taala, forgive me if i was wrong(audubillah).


Salam!

[HinduIconoclast]

Salam alaykum Basit, I agree with you but I am saying that Islam is BASED on logic (for example, monotheism is logical) but that miracles, etc. are secondary to beliefs like the existence of Allah SWT and Tawheed.

[Basit]

Wa Alaykum Al-Salam,

Actually im replying to previous posts. hehe. but anyway, when u say "logic" that simply means correct or at an acceptable degree. well, taking my experience for example, i am born a christian, raised as a christian until i reached at age of 22 when i finished my bachelors degree and finally gone independent. until that time i was blind of the truth, i simply follow what others do and what others teach thats all im doing before. when i arrived in arabia, i met and made friends with muslim people and they taught me about Islam, and that time i learned what Islam really is, it struck my head and my heart crave for more about Islam and thus......i believed.

My case agrees to what you have posted above, which is logic and then faith, as i am not informed in the very beginning. After i am informed thats the time i believed. After i found the truth thats the time i got faith. I got faith because i knew the truth behind Islam and that Allah(swt) is indeed the only God. Now, without a doubt, i believe in Him.

Bismillahir-Rahmanir-Rahim
Surah Al-Jinn v1-2

Say, [O Muhammad], "It has been revealed to me that a group of the jinn listened and said " Indeed, we have heard an amazing Qur'an.

It guides to the right course, and we have believed in it. And we will never associate with our Lord anymore.


Salam!

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson

Do you really have certain knowledge of the unseen? Aren't you taking it on trust?

Before I can answer that, I will need some clarification. Trust in what exactly?

Regards

[czgibson]

Greetings Basit,

I'm going to emphasise some parts of your earlier post:

Al-Salam Alaykum,

imho, i think there is a difference between belief and faith. belief is believing into something that you think is, i.e. superstitions, existing but in reality they are just make-ups of the mind. faith is believing into something you may not see, hear or touch but you know it is there.

The trouble is that your opinion does not change the definitions of words. Faith can never supply you with knowledge without ceasing to be faith.

Faith and belief are synonyms in English; faith and knowledge are not.

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Greetings czgibson Before I can answer that, I will need some clarification. Trust in what exactly?

What I mean is that you haven't seen the unseen (by definition), so you must have heard about it from somewhere outside your own visual record of experience.

You have heard people talk about it or you have read it in religious scripture. If you believe in it without having seen it yourself, you are trusting the people or texts that gave you that information.

As a comparable example, I believe in the existence of the planet Neptune. I have never seen it, but I believe that many people have, and supposedly reliable images of it are available. I'm sure that if I had the necessary astronomical equipment to hand (like, say, Voyager 2) I would be able to verify its existence for myself. Until then, I can't yet say that I have certain knowledge that Neptune exists in the way I've been led to believe. On the other hand, you are talking about having certain knowledge of something nobody claims to have seen, and that nobody can see by definition. This is surely faith, and not knowledge.

This is assuming that you haven't personally sensed the unseen in some other way, of course. Maybe you have?

Peace

[Basit]

Al-Salam Alaykum CZ,

the words,perse, would have same definition but i think their implication is not? Belief, at first you will get the information but then when you found it as only a superstition and doesnt really apply, you immediately dispose it. but faith, is different, it is enduring, it is nurturing. when you have faith, you believe and you trust. when you learned the idea and truth, you would accept and embrace it and believe in it. With faith you will keep believing in it and it should not falter.

The words of Allah(swt) are authoritative, every believer must follow because every transgression has a punishment. All his words as stated in the Holy Qur'an are true and proofs of Him are presented long time before. When one seeks proof of God's existence, he just read the Qur'an and believe in it. There is no need to ask proof that we shall witness by ourselves because such is an atheist way. But we are Muslims.

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings Basit,

I'm going to emphasise some parts of your earlier post:



The trouble is that your opinion does not change the definitions of words. Faith can never supply you with knowledge without ceasing to be faith.

Faith and belief are synonyms in English; faith and knowledge are not.

Peace

I disagree with your use of the word knowledge. How can you choose to have faith without knowledge of the tenets of the belief? Also, knowledge (true knowledge) points in the direction of proper beliefs.

You yourself said that you don't know where the universe came from, but you have knowledge of our beliefs which you reject (based on faith).

In your definition, it seems like, outside of mathematics, you can't know anything for sure.

[Zafran]

salaam

The trouble is that your opinion does not change the definitions of words. Faith can never supply you with knowledge without ceasing to be faith.

Faith and belief are synonyms in English; faith and knowledge are not.

You need faith in everything including the things you know. - The definition goes true-justified- belief - Although it has been argued that this definition is flawed by sceptics.

AAK nailed it.

Reminds me of the famous philosophical problems of perception and what we know and of course how do we know the sun will rise the next day.

[Zafran]

As a comparable example, I believe in the existence of the planet Neptune. I have never seen it, but I believe that many people have, and supposedly reliable images of it are available. I'm sure that if I had the necessary astronomical equipment to hand (like, say, Voyager 2) I would be able to verify its existence for myself. Until then, I can't yet say that I have certain knowledge that Neptune exists in the way I've been led to believe. On the other hand, you are talking about having certain knowledge of something nobody claims to have seen, and that nobody can see by definition. This is surely faith, and not knowledge.

We would call those reliable people prophets - there proofs eg - Quran - They have met God - when we die we will also be able to verify it - Just like you with your equipment.

Whatever we percieve does not always equal knowledge - you must have heard of Descartes or the problem of percpetion - eg how do we know the furniture is still in the next room when nobody is percieving it? - opens up a whole sceptic world.

[Gubbleknucker]

Knowledge comes from the senses. Faith is a function of the brain.

Knowledge cannot come from faith.

Hmm. So you have faith that I am wrong?

No, there's just nothing substantial to indicate that you're right.

In your definition, it seems like, outside of mathematics, you can't know anything for sure.

It is true that many atheists are pragmatists.

[AntiKarateKid]

Knowledge comes from the senses. Faith is a function of the brain.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Could you please rephrase?

Knowledge cannot come from faith.

Knowledge dictates faith. True knowledge points to the true faith.

No, there's just nothing substantial to indicate that you're right.

Correction, you refuse to acknowledge the substance we present. Your lack of belief doesn't translate into a lack of truth from us, though you may fancy yourself as a truth seeker.

It is true that many atheists are pragmatists.

I don't think that relates to what I said.

[Zafran]

Knowledge comes from the senses. Faith is a function of the brain.

Not true at all as our senses can trick us - eg mirages and our perception can make something look large or small depending on the circiumstances. We still have to believe in our senses are not creatinmg illusions and are actually reliable. How do you know faith is a function of the brain? or is that what you call

No, there's just nothing substantial to indicate that you're right.

Knowledge cannot come from faith.

Knowledge is Ture Justified BELIEF - the first step of knowledge is belief - thats where all knowledge comes from - we have to believe in what we know.

Even science is based on faith. You have to believe that the same experiment will always create the same results in the future.

[Basit]

Al-Salam Alaykum,

Even science is based on faith. You have to believe that the same experiment will always create the same results in the future.

I couldn't agree more.

Knowledge cannot come from faith.

Knowledge is an idea based on experience which doesn't need to be reviewed or speculated. The warmth of the sun for example, based on experience, we know that when the sunlight reaches our skin we know it will give heat. we dont have to ask anybody or do some sort of experiment to proove it because we know, by ourselves based on our experience that sunlight will give heat to our skin on contact. And so, everytime we go outside, without a doubt, we believe that when we are in contact with the light of the sun we will feel heat. Now this is belief based on experience/knowledge.
Science will give more addition to this knowledge by imploring more ideas like how the sunlight gives heat to our skin and so on....but the domain of science is only on the physical, it does not encompass the unnatural. science can only give information on things that we can perceive and not all knowledge from science is generally accepted, which goes back to faith, its up to the human mind to accpt or reject this knowledge.

Knowledge from faith is very difficult to proove by ourselves but we know it is true. The day of judgment for example. From our faith, we learned that a time will come when Allah(swt) will raise up all creatures and to be judged accordingly, this we know to be coming, this we know to be true and we dont have to doubt it because we believe it to be true, our mind tells us that it is true and our heart wants it to be true because we have faith.

When science told that man originated from apes, it came as an idea to the mind but debatable, but the Qur'an, which are words of Allah(swt), told that man is created by Allah(swt) from clay, we believed that man is really created from clay because we have faith. we knew that man is created by God as dictate of our faith and reject the idea that man came from apes.

And Allah, subhanah wa taala, knows best.

[Hugo]

Knowledge comes from the senses. Faith is a function of the brain. Knowledge cannot come from faith.

This is an odd idea. We can of course gain knowledge through our senses but we can also evolve theories in our brains. For example, Newton saw the apple fall and that led to his theory but Einstein started with the theory, he worked it out long before there was any evidence at all but he had faith that at some point in time there would be a test and evidence would emerge.

Faith is a strong belief, a trust. Sometimes it is based on evidence and sometimes not; some people are ultra sceptical others will belief in anything and it is hardly a rational faith that believes in anything is it? Perhaps from a religious point of view the letter to the Hebrews 11:1 puts it very well: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Gubbleknucker]

Einstein started with the theory, he worked it out long before there was any evidence at all but he had faith that at some point in time there would be a test and evidence would emerge.

He based his theory upon the things that he had observed. It was based in facts, not faith.

I'm sure he would have accepted evidence against his theory, so I don't know that it can be said he had faith.
He had enough confidence that he was onto something to expend the effort necessary to work his theories out to completion, certainly, but does confidence equal faith?

It is true that many atheists are pragmatists.

I don't think that relates to what I said.

Pragmatists believe that it is impossible to know anything for certain.

our senses can trick us

True. I could be a brain floating in a jar somewhere, hooked up to a bunch of electrodes to simulate actual experiences. In that case you would merely be part of the simulation.

I was saying that the only thing that is knowable is that we experience things. I did not say we could know whether that information was true.

I will believe as long as the evidence is strong enough. I have experienced nothing to indicate that I am in The Matrix, so I discount that as an extreme improbability.

[Hugo]

He based his theory upon the things that he had observed. It was based in facts, not faith.

I'm sure he would have accepted evidence against his theory, so I don't know that it can be said he had faith. He had enough confidence that he was onto something to expend the effort necessary to work his theories out to completion, certainly, but does confidence equal faith? Pragmatists believe that it is impossible to know anything for certain.

I was saying that the only thing that is knowable is that we experience things. I did not say we could know whether that information was true. I will believe as long as the evidence is strong enough. I have experienced nothing to indicate that I am in The Matrix, so I discount that as an extreme improbability.

How could Einstein have observed relativity, that time changes as we go faster? Clearly there were no facts, no one had or could have observed it at that time. Consider in physics string theory; it is not based on any observable facts and it has never been verified so its a total conception, a construct within his mind. Thus he knew the theory but it had at that time no connexion to experience, reality.

Of course he had to wait for verification which came as far as I can recall 12 years later and if such verfification had never come it would still be a theory, something constructed in his a mind.

If I may say so you are just playing with words here and surely your 'enough confidence' = 'faith' and your pragmatists at least have faith in that according to you they have a belief?

[Hugo]

This is what I mean. It is from here that people go into the 'Athiest' state of mind. For me, and for most people that are Muslims, they have been bought up in such a way that the concept of Allah is involved in everything they do, all the actions they carry out, the littlest to the biggest things they do.

Evidence? What evidence will satisfy you people?! Especially regarding the Qur'aan! URL="http://www.islamreligion.com/category/34/"]The Scientific Miracles of the Holy Qur'aan[/URL] What more will satisfy you? Nothing. It is only Allaah who Guides.

Sorry to be so long in getting back to you but I looked at the site above with interest. I am not an atheist and have faith in God's existence, based on evidence not proof and more than that it is based on what I read about God and His teaching through His prophets.

If I just take the first example from this site called 'The Earth's Atmosphere' and described there as a scientific miracle so one supposes that all scientific facts are miracles? The article mentions two verses from the Qu'ran, but I was not sure what translation was in use but (Pickthal) Qu'ran 86:11 "By the heaven which giveth the returning rain" and 2:22 "Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you".

I cannot quite see how these verses are telling us something that according to the article were only discovered in the modern era and one might suppose that if that were true 1400 years ago these verses would have had no meaning but clearly they describe what we can all see?

There is another example for (Yusuf Ali) Qu'ran 57:25 We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

If you look at English translations (I have only 5) few say "sent down" about Iron and so it seems to me that whoever wrote that article has exaggerated the meaning of 'sent down' and extrapolated it beyond a reasonable implication. We see here that the scriptures were 'sent down' and iron 'were sent down' so using that rationale in the article Iron came from a supernova so the Scriptures must have come that way also. It it much more reasonable to read this as meaning God gave us these things.

I think we should love and wonder at creation and that is an encouragement to us but it is not proof. For example, I once heard a speaker talk about the wonder of creation and science as proof of God but then someone asked a question "if God made all these good things who made the bad ones like the Ebola virus?

For what its worth I believe that God's word is always correct but it is not and never was intended to be a science text book. As a matter of interest the Bible is said by some to have 'code' and using very clever mathematics one can unlock these codes and make predictions and some argue therefore its a proof about God but for me its all nonsense because you can use the same algorithms on any book and get similar ideas and the same applies to the kind of thing suggested in some of these articles.