Was "Christ" a "Christian"?:

[00:00]

What Did Jesus Really Say?
Misha'al Ibn Abdullah al Kadhi


If we were to ask a random Christian off the street: "What was the religion of Jesus?" They would unhesitantly respond: "Christianity." If we were then to ask: "Did Jesus himself ever use this word? Did he ever call his religion 'Christianity' or call his followers 'Christians'?" If this Christian knows his Bible, he will say, "No."

"So," we would continue, "once again, what was his religion?" If this Christian knows his Bible he will now respond "Judaism." "That's right!," we would affirm, "Jesus was a Jew! He followed the religion of Moses" (read chapter one). "According to your Bible, Jesus lived and died never having violated a single aspect of the true Jewish religion. He fasted when they fasted. He prayed as they prayed.

He observed the Sabbath as the Jews did. He never in his life tasted pork. He was circumcised like all faithful Jews, and he repeatedly ordered his followers to keep the commandments of the God 'till heaven and earth pass' (Matthew 5:17-18)." So Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew! He followed the religion of Moses (pbuh).

The word "Christianity" was not invented till long after the departure of Jesus (pbuh). We have already demonstrated in chapter two how everything from the Catholic encyclopedia, to countless Christian scholars, to Western encyclopedias, in addition to many other Christian sources all confirm that the true founder of "Christianity" was the Jew named "Saul of Tarsus." More popularly known as "Saint Paul." According to the Bible, it was only after Jesus' (pbuh) death that the religion he observed so faithfully was nullified. This was done upon the authority of "Saint Paul" who had never met him in the flesh, and who claimed that he was receiving divine "visions" from Jesus' ghost ordering him to nullify that which Jesus (pbuh) observed throughout his life and commanded his followers to observe "till heaven and earth pass."

Now, we will ask: "If Jesus was a Jew, then where did 'Judaism' come from?" Once again, this Christian will most likely jump up and say: "From Moses!" "So Moses introduced Judaism?" we would ask. "Of course!" he would reply. We would then ask: "Was prophet Abraham a Jew?" Again, this man would more than likely respond "Of course!" We would now ask "was prophet Adam, the first human, a 'Jew'? "Were all of the prophets of God Jews?" He would not be sure.

We would respond: "Well then, did Moses ever call his religion 'Judaism'?" Once again, if this person knows their Bible then they will respond: "No." So, we would continue: "Where does the word 'Jew' come from then?" If he does not know, then we would explain that it comes from "Judah." Judah was the son of Jacob (Israel), who was the son of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham (pbuh).

So, if neither Abraham nor Moses (pbut) introduced "Judaism," and it was named after prophet Abraham's (pbuh) great grandson, then it is only logical to ask: what was prophet Abraham's religion? What was prophet Adam's religion? In general, what was it that all of the prophets from Adam through Jesus (pbut) preached? The Qur'an has the answer, but it needs a little explanation.

Since we have now found the origins of "Christianity" and "Judaism," it is only fair to do the same with "Islam." "Islam" is an Arabic word which means "Submission to the will of God(alone)." The word "Muslim" is derived from this word. "Muslim" means "one who has submitted to the will of God(alone)."

"O People of the Scripture! Why do you argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense? Verily! you are those who argue about that which you have some knowledge: Why then do you argue concerning that which you have no knowledge? Allah knows and you know not. Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright 'Muslim' (he surrendered to Allah), and he did not worship other than Allah. Verily! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet(Muhammad) and those who believe; and Allah is the Protecting Friend of the believers" The Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):65-68.

"Say: 'Truly, my Lord has guided me to straight path, an upright enduring religion, the religion of Abraham, the true belief (i.e. the True Islamic Monotheism— to believe in One God and to worship none but Allah, alone) and he was never amongst those who worshipped others with Allah." The Qur'an, Al-Ana'am(6):161-163

"Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto Us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and the sons of Jacob, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered (literally: "we are Muslims")." The Qur'an, al-Bakarah(2):136

[Uthman]

:threadapp

[fromgenesis]

It would seem that Christ could not have been a "Christian" as it refers to followers of Christ and his teachings.

Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

You are mistaken that Judaism was "nullified", but rather fulfilled it seems to me.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Christians worship the same God that was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and Moses). For this reason, you will find that the Old Testament still forms an important part of Christian sermons. There is no break, just that what was prophesied in the law and the prophets were fulfilled in Jesus and He revealed the truth to us- that we cannot inherit eternal life by our own efforts but only by his blood can we receive remission of sin.Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Now you can see that the sacrifices in the Old Testament could not take away sin, but was pointing forward to Jesus. For that reason,the animals sacrificed could not have any blemish - referring again to Jesus - who was without sin and by shedding of his blood purchased those that will believe in Him.

That is one aspect that is often overlooked - that the Bible forms a coherent whole. I know that there are ministers that only concentrate on the New Testament. I believe that they miss out on the riches of the Old Testament.

[جوري]

What Did Jesus Really Say?
Misha'al Ibn Abdullah al Kadhi

Brilliant post Jazaka Allah khyran for sharing...

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[fromgenesis]

Did God ever called Himself a Muslim?

[malayloveislam]

G-d's title is as-Salam (The Peace Guarantor), it is among His Glorious Names... Islam means Submittance to the Guarantor of Peace. Muslim are those who submit themselves to G-d.

[malayloveislam]

As-Salaam, He Who Grants Peace

Linguistically, as-Salam is rooted from the word "s-l-m," which means, free from any flaw, and related to peacefulness and prosperity. As-Salam means, He Who Grants Peace and He Who Tranquilizes.

The word as-Salam describes that Allah SWT, is the Creator who Possess the Power above all, in the whole Universe, above all the characteristics possessed by individuals and Powerful above all human characteristics as His creatures.

”For Allah SWT is the Almighty and He Creates all characteristics, and it is Him who Tranquilizes, and bringing Peace to His creatures."

Basically, peace and prosperity is a necessity for human. It is a condition which becomes the dream of everyone. Thus, human always trying to find their way to get the peace and prosperity in their life. "For a peaceful life and tranquility, a Muslim should always be close to Allah SWT who possess the peace, tranquility, and the prosperity. The peace that is gained is not only bounded to the peace in the life, but also in the hereafter.

The way? Through religious disciplines such as the five pillars of Islam such as praying, fasting, tithe, and other sunnah.

In daily life, the as-Salam characteristic can be applied by a Muslim in their attitude, verbally or non-verbal. "Orally, a Muslim are ordered to greet each other with Salam greeting. Related to this matter, some ulamas said that it is optional but also demanded to greet others, and some claim that it is obligatory. And also those who heard the greeting are obliged to answer the greeting."

When those who believe in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) come to you, say: "Salamun 'Alaikum" (peace be on you); your Lord has written Mercy for Himself, so that, if any of you does evil in ignorance, and thereafter repents and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allah), then surely, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (translation of Surah al-An'am, verse 54)

While greeting others with Salam, Muslims too are reminded to sincerely and understand that Salam is also a prayer to others. When they greet others with Salam, they are also praying for others. If Salam is offered with full understanding and sincere, it will also giving impacts to those who are greeted. And G-d Will, the prayer will come to life.

Other than that, the word as-Salam also contains a wisdom that human are created to live in a society. So, the interaction developed should also brings peaceful environment such as good attitude toward neighbors and friends.

”If we found bad neighbors, it may be because of two possibilities. They still do not understand the wisdom of Salam (Peace), or they understood it, but they still have no consciousness. The task for a Muslim who already understood the wisdom is to spread their understanding to others and teaching others. The most effective example, is to be the example."

source from a recoreded speech in written form
http://keyza19.multiply.com/journal/item/21

[fromgenesis]

G-d's title is as-Salam (The Peace Guarantor), it is among His Glorious Names... Islam means Submittance to the Guarantor of Peace. Muslim are those who submit themselves to G-d.

That does not quite answer the question, but no problem.

All I was referring to was that Jesus did not call himself a Christian, but followers of Christ was first called Christians, as indicated earlier.

Jesus came to explain the spirit of the law and not the outward observance. When they asked Him what the most important commandments were, He indicated that love towards God and our neighbour (and you will know from the parable of the Samaritan who that is) fulfills the law.

But apart from explaining the deeper meaning of the law, He also paid the price for the sins of those called - thus allowing us in the present to receive His righteousness, and live a life in his peace that is independent of circumstances, and also allows me to love all.

Thank you in any case for your comment and may you have a great day!

[fromgenesis]

As-Salaam, He Who Grants Peace
Basically, peace and prosperity is a necessity for human. It is a condition which becomes the dream of everyone. Thus, human always trying to find their way to get the peace and prosperity in their life. "For a peaceful life and tranquility, a Muslim should always be close to Allah SWT who possess the peace, tranquility, and the prosperity.
source from a recoreded speech in written form
http://keyza19.multiply.com/journal/item/21

Malayloveislam, I agree with you that us as (unregenerate) humans want peace and prosperity. That is however not the things we should be striving for? Should it not be to bring honour and glory to our Father in heaven? He gives us His peace and we are not at all concerned with prosperity - that is needs of the "flesh". To live a life close to Him and love Him, and always grow closer to Him should be our desire? In my experience God removes the need for earthly things as they are worthless.

These changed attitudes does not come by own effort but is granted when we become a "new" person, when we accept Christ (see new birth)

[جوري]

Did God ever called Himself a Muslim?

God doesn't need to submit to himself, we submit to him (that is what it means to be a Muslim, if you've actually read the above post)..
only in Christianity does god turn into a human who prays to himself only to forsake himself.. I hope you realize such fairy tales don't hold well with the rest of humanity .. 'least of which the Jews' to which this specific said god was said t be sent!
15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

http://bible.cc/matthew/15-24.htm

[fromgenesis]

God doesn't need to submit to himself, we submit to him (that is what it means to be a Muslim, if you've actually read the above post)..
only in Christianity does god turn into a human who prays to himself only to forsake himself.. I hope you realize such fairy tales don't hold well with the rest of humanity .. 'least of which the Jews' to which this specific said god was said t be sent!
15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

http://bible.cc/matthew/15-24.htm

That is quite true and obvious - so Jesus would not call himself a Christian as Christians are followers of the Christ.

You have some facts wrong. You may be familiar with the concept of the Trinity where God is revealed as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Thus Jesus does not pray to himself, but to his Father. I would agree with you that this is a difficult concept as it is totally out of our range of experience.

You are wrong. From the beginning, Jesus' sacrifice was not intended only for the Jews
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Yes, Jesus did not personally go to the Gentiles, but brought the Gospel to the Jews - who rejected Him. You will also know that Jesus said the following:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. So although Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, his sacrifice was for people of all nations.

[جوري]

That is quite true and obvious - so Jesus would not call himself a Christian as Christians are followers of the Christ.

The only problem here is that you take a man for a god, so what he calls or doesn't call himself is already subject to whims as you are unable to differentiate creator from creation!

You have some facts wrong. You may be familiar with the concept of the Trinity where God is revealed as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Thus Jesus does not pray to himself, but to his Father. I would agree with you that this is a difficult concept as it is totally out of our range of experience.

God should be a concept understood by all from the simplest Bedouin mind to the most worldly scholar.. To begin with, I have a difficult time (even if I overlook the trinity portion) of God forsaking after giving his word that he wouldn't .. if God can't keep his word to his most precious, why should he to the rest of humanity? plus breaking a few commandments in the process.

You are wrong. From the beginning, Jesus' sacrifice was not intended only for the Jews
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

So your bible contradicts itself and yet you expect us to hold is as the word of truth? obviously the two quotes are at odds.. and I am not sure whose words should I take? a self-appointed apostle and a menace like Paul or Jesus himself?

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

That is great if God took away the sin of the world by being a lamb, I am sure he wouldn't mind saving those in some remote tribes even if they choose not to believe into the man/god myth.

Yes, Jesus did not personally go to the Gentiles, but brought the Gospel to the Jews - who rejected Him. You will also know that Jesus said the following:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. So although Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, his sacrifice was for people of all nations.

See above reply.. It looks monumentally embarrassing these pious forgeries which make your book unable to hold its own against itself let alone other religious doctrines!

all the best

[malayloveislam]

I may not be really familiar with Christianity concept but I'm a South East Asian which I'm familiar with Buddhism of Theravada school and Brahman Hinduism. I grow up being taught with our classical texts and although we are already Muslims, but our ancestors were previously Hindu-Buddhists. The concept of a teacher who is a human being respected to the level of god is just familiar here. Also a king worshiped as a god, is just a familiar concept. Native Malay people in my village do have certain celebration like "Puja Guru" means "Worshiping Teachers", which is associating Teachers with G-d, in Shamanistic syncretized with Hindu-Buddhism belief. It is now not being practiced anymore after many people understand that G-d should not be associated with others. He is alone, and the only One.

As an example, Buddha Gautama is a Guru (Teacher). Buddhists are not worshiping bronze or clay statue, they just respecting Buddha. Buddhists are known as Buddhist from the title of Siddhartha Gautama. Buddha is the incarnation of G-d himself. Siddhartha Gautama Buddha himself is the last incarnation from the previous incarnation of a Hindu legend who is also a god, Sri Krishna Govinda and a white elephant (symbolizing a king). Sri Krishna is the incarnation of Phra Narayanna Vishnu. Vishnu is the Protector together with Brahma, and Shiva. For Buddhist too, Buddha Siddhartha Gautama is known as Sammasambuddha, which in simple word means He who is without the Beginning, and He who is without End. This is just some portion, is it easy to comprehend?

We Muslim simply revering the Highest G-d and in Arabic it is spelled as A-L-L-H and it means The G-d. It is without any gender marker in the spelling, showing that He is not a creature but a Creator, where His image can't be achieved by human imagination, except that we know about Him through the revelation given to His prophets and messengers that He wants us to know about Him. Those prophets and messengers of G-d are human-being except that they were guided by the revelation and protected by G-d from sinful acts so that they can become the example to other human-being like us :statisfie

[malayloveislam]

Malayloveislam, I agree with you that us as (unregenerate) humans want peace and prosperity. That is however not the things we should be striving for? Should it not be to bring honour and glory to our Father in heaven? He gives us His peace and we are not at all concerned with prosperity - that is needs of the "flesh". To live a life close to Him and love Him, and always grow closer to Him should be our desire? In my experience God removes the need for earthly things as they are worthless.

These changed attitudes does not come by own effort but is granted when we become a "new" person, when we accept Christ (see new birth)

Agreed...but, the peace that is gained is not only bounded to the peace in the life, but also in the hereafter.

The kingdom of G-d is not only in the hereafter but it covers all, without any time restriction because G-d is never tied with Time and Space :statisfie

We still have to go through this Earth, and it is the bridge connecting us to the hereafter. There is a wisdom in it, Earth is the place of tests but we are still given with guidance through His messengers and revelation as the sign that He never abandon us.

Best Regard...

[fromgenesis]

God should be a concept understood by all from the simplest Bedouin mind to the most worldly scholar..

That is partly true. Even the smallest child can understand the concept of a loving Father that cares for them. It is however a misconception in my view to think that we will ever on this earth have a grasp of the complete nature of God. That to my mind is somewhat presumptuous and limits God to our limited understanding of all things.

To begin with, I have a difficult time (even if I overlook the trinity portion) of God forsaking after giving his word that he wouldn't .. if God can't keep his word to his most precious, why should he to the rest of humanity?

You refer to Jesus' call on the cross? Jesus knew full well what was going to happen - He warned his disciples about that as well. What we see here, is the result of our sins carried by Jesus. Sin separated Jesus from God the Father's presence. My sin and your sin.

Jesus' death on the cross must have hurt the Father terribly - just as much as Abraham must have hurt when he went to sacrifice his son. But that was a sign of obedience. Abraham did not have to go through, but God did, and He did it for you and me. It is the only way in which we could be reconciled with God - the perfect sacrifice - that lambs and goats could never do.

That is great if God took away the sin of the world by being a lamb, I am sure he wouldn't mind saving those in some remote tribes even if they choose not to believe into the man/god myth.

Jesus did not die for just males, or just Jews, but for all people of all races that came to Him.

The fact that there are many that have not been exposed to your way must also be of concern to you- similarly to me. But let me not be a judge of God's way and his sovereignty. It is a difficult topic and I do not know all the answers. I do however know that I stand guilty before the law and there is no way that I could justify myself before a Holy God and make Him my debtor by arguing my good deeds. I only rely on the blood of Jesus to cleanse me from sin.

The question of choice is important. If you reject Christ, you cannot be saved because the law will judge you for what you have done. There was no forgiveness of sin.
Kind regards

[fromgenesis]

Agreed...but, the peace that is gained is not only bounded to the peace in the life, but also in the hereafter.

The kingdom of G-d is not only in the hereafter but it covers all, without any time restriction because G-d is never tied with Time and Space :statisfie

We still have to go through this Earth, and it is the bridge connecting us to the hereafter. There is a wisdom in it, Earth is the place of tests but we are still given with guidance through His messengers and revelation as the sign that He never abandon us.

Best Regard...

You are so right. Our life on earth is but a fleeting breath and the glory and peace we now have is nothing in comparison with what lies ahead for those that are found to be worthy.

It is however important what we do in this life, and as Jesus revealed - it is not a case of outward things but the heart. Thanks for the comment.

[جوري]

That is partly true. Even the smallest child can understand the concept of a loving Father that cares for them. It is however a misconception in my view to think that we will ever on this earth have a grasp of the complete nature of God. That to my mind is somewhat presumptuous and limits God to our limited understanding of all things.You refer to Jesus' call on the cross? Jesus knew full well what was going to happen - He warned his disciples about that as well. What we see here, is the result of our sins carried by Jesus. Sin separated Jesus from God the Father's presence. My sin and your sin.

I have said nothing about the nature of God, in fact if anyone is about defining the nature of God, it is Christians, and they do so not only be engendering him but giving him male or animal qualities, like lamb or lion or part of a three headed God!

Jesus' death on the cross must have hurt the Father terribly - just as much as Abraham must have hurt when he went to sacrifice his son. But that was a sign of obedience. Abraham did not have to go through, but God did, and He did it for you and me. It is the only way in which we could be reconciled with God - the perfect sacrifice - that lambs and goats could never do.Jesus did not die for just males, or just Jews, but for all people of all races that came to Him.

again with God's feelings, and god's forsaking, and God praying and god's weakness and God's this or that.. You are doing exactly what you think others shouldn't do, on top of all it is extremely disrespectful and lacks reverence and it is cockamamie it is almost like you've been rehearsing something very counter intuitive. And again as per your bible Jesus came for one group of people who in fact have rejected him, and now more than ever as the concept you have of God defies all that have been brought since the time of Adam, Enoch, Joseph, Abraham, Job.. all of a sudden a man/god who impregnates women with his person then dies. give me a break!

The fact that there are many that have not been exposed to your way must also be of concern to you- similarly to me. But let me not be a judge of God's way and his sovereignty. It is a difficult topic and I do not know all the answers. I do however know that I stand guilty before the law and there is no way that I could justify myself before a Holy God and make Him my debtor by arguing my good deeds. I only rely on the blood of Jesus to cleanse me from sin.

I don't rely on Jesus blood saving me from anything. I rely on the law of Grace and mercy which God assigned to himself.. and no I am not aggrieved by who believes or who doesn't.. Each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds!

The question of choice is important. If you reject Christ, you cannot be saved because the law will judge you for what you have done. There was no forgiveness of sin.
Kind regards

I reject Jesus as a God, I accept him as a prophet of God.. and I'll take my chances than be a part of those led astray!

all the best

[fromgenesis]

I have said nothing about the nature of God, in fact if anyone is about defining the nature of God, it is Christians, and they do so not only be engendering him but giving him male or animal qualities, like lamb or lion or part of a three headed God!

In your view of God, is He neither male nor female? Rather more a "it"? I see in your quote that you do refer to "Him"

And again as per your bible Jesus came for one group of people who in fact have rejected him

I have already answered this - his message is for the whole world, as is evidenced by so many scriptures.

I rely on the law of Grace and mercy which God assigned to himself

You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?

In some Christian circles you will find the same - that God is loving, caring and will not punish sin. This is a lie.

I reject Jesus as a God, I accept him as a prophet of God

Yes, most people do reject Jesus as God. But let it be a warning that these very words may haunt you. It is not a threat, but the truth as you will on judgement day (or sooner) see this with your own eyes: Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.(see Isaiah 45:23).

If you want to see your heart, read your responses to me.

Kind regards.

[جوري]

In your view of God, is He neither male nor female? Rather more a "it"?

You'd have to know something about parsin, syntax and grammar of other languages.
in Semitic languages there is no such pronoun as 'It'. to use the feminine is to engender, whereas the masculine can be used and not denote gender, or denote male or even female at times. Do visit out Arabic section and familiarize yourself with Arabic grammar!

I see in your quote that you do refer to "Him" I have already answered this - his message is for the whole world, as is evidenced by so many scriptures. You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?

See above about the quote, and I fear nothing you'll pull out of a hat is going to be convincing about the man/god fiasco, I really don't think it will last another century as science advances and the conundrum of the man/god/nunciator impregnater won't be able to hold its weight, although I suspect it never has!

In some Christian circles you will find the same - that God is loving, caring and will not punish sin. This is a lie.

you've been lying about God's nature since the beginning, I wouldn't be surprised, either way it is of no concern to me what you consider a lie or truth, so long as you are happy being a christian then it is all that matters.. it has no bearing on the rest of us~!

Yes, most people do reject Jesus as God. But let it be a warning that these very words may haunt you. It is not a threat, but the truth as you will on judgement day (or sooner) see this with your own eyes: Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.(see Isaiah 45:23).

I'll consider myself warned and thankfully fled with my life from the darkness that has ensnared many minds.

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was.3:59




O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih (messiah) Jesus the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. 4:171

If you want to see your heart, read your responses to me.
Kind regards.
all the best

Islam is what satisfies both the heart and the mind.. and I thank Allah swt for the gift of Islam and from leading us from the darkness into the light!

all the best

[fromgenesis]

You'd have to know something about parsin, syntax and grammar of other languages.
in Semitic languages there is no such pronoun as 'It'. to use the feminine is to engender, whereas the masculine can be used and not denote gender, or denote male or even female at times. Do visit out Arabic section and familiarize yourself with Arabic grammar!

I notice that the mail was written in English.

See above about the quote, and I fear nothing you'll pull out of a hat is going to be convincing about the man/god fiasco

Not quite a relevant answer to the issue of justice and a red herring.

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was.3:59

I am sure this will also be an area of scientific investigation.

[جوري]

I notice that the mail was written in English.

Indeed, we can't be blamed for deficiencies in your language, we can only use what you have available if we desire communication!

Not quite a relevant answer to the issue of justice and a red herring

Quite relevant since it is the crux of your religion!

. I am sure this will also be an area of scientific investigation.

sure..

all the best

[fromgenesis]

Indeed, we can't be blamed for deficiencies in your language, we can only use what you have available if we desire communication!

The deficiency seems not to be with the English language as it makes provision for "it". What is the position then of the Muslim faith on the issue of gender?

Quite relevant since it is the crux of your religion!

But not the point under discussion - which was the purpose of retribution - punishment or justice.

sure..

You do not see your own contradiction?

Gossamer skye, I am not trying to win an argument as this will be real empty. It is also not my purpose to convince you. If you are to be convinced, it will be the work of the Holy Spirit who works in mysterious ways - but you will definitely know when it has happened.(John 3:1-16)

Kind regards and wishing you the best.

[جوري]

The deficiency seems not to be with the English language as it makes provision for "it". What is the position then of the Muslim faith on the issue of gender?

Not at all, furthermore God isn't an It. God is a supreme being. The fact that you can't wrap your mind about his being (should be understandable) however bringing him down to the low common denominator of being akin to humans or even worst animals, is merely an invention of your forefather...and if I may say blowing up in your face throughout the centuries, since no one wishes to worship an ineffectual human being!

But not the point under discussion - which was the purpose of retribution - punishment or justice.
You do not see your own contradiction?

I really don't.. I see you introducing a cockamamie route to it. Since one supreme being doesn't seem to suffice you, you create separate byways and give them ridiculous definition!

Gossamer skye, I am not trying to win an argument as this will be real empty. It is also not my purpose to convince you. If you are to be convinced, it will be the work of the Holy Spirit who works in mysterious ways - but you will definitely know when it has happened.(John 3:1-16)

Kind regards and wishing you the best.

I didn't think you were trying to win an argument. I think you seriously believe in the words you are preaching. I am merely showing you where they are deficient if not down right absurd!

2: 255 GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being. Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave? He knows all that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them,247 whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He wills [them to attain]. His eternal power248 overspreads the heavens and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And He alone is truly exalted, tremendous.


256 THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.249 Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil250 and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.


I have made the intelligent choice!

all the best

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Gossamer skye, I am not trying to win an argument as this will be real empty. It is also not my purpose to convince you. If you are to be convinced, it will be the work of the Holy Spirit who works in mysterious ways - but you will definitely know when it has happened.(John 3:1-16)

Kind regards and wishing you the best.

:rolleyes:

I have made the intelligent choice!

all the best

Alhamdulillah

[fromgenesis]

I really don't.. I see you introducing a cockamamie route to it. Since one supreme being doesn't seem to suffice you, you create separate byways and give them ridiculous definition!

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

[fromgenesis]

:rolleyes:
Alhamdulillah

Yes, quite true and such a pity that you rely on human intelligence. It would really be good if you asked God himself.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Lol are you for real? Did I say anything to you?

Alhamdulillah means Thank God, not a secret insult.

You're insult is uncalled for.

[bamboozled]

...That is one aspect that is often overlooked - that the Bible forms a coherent whole. I know that there are ministers that only concentrate on the New Testament. I believe that they miss out on the riches of the Old Testament.

Im afraid many Christians do this.

If they followed the original Gods word, instead of the even more altered New Testament, then the Christians and Muslims would have even more in common.

For example:

1. Burqa and Hijab

In the Bible it reads in 1 Timothy Ch2 V9:

"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,"

Know you could argue that peoples interpretations of modest differ, but then wouldnt Mary PBUH be an example for women.

(source - http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-9.htm - which gives other translations)

Furthermore, if you look at Mother Mary, may Allah be pleased with her. She wears what Muslims women where similar to a burqa, identical to a hijab, she is covered from head to toe with only her hands and face showing.

(Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi...n_Province.jpg)

Women in Islam cover up, in the same manner that the nuns do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nun (Look at this pics)

Do you know it says in the Bible that if a women shows of her hair, it should be shaved off.

Also

Pork in Christianity

Pork is banned in Christianity:
Or unclear and therefore should at least be avoided.

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."[Leviticus 11:7-8]

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

"Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day."
[Isaiah 65:4-5]

Of course Christians still eat it, even though there is ambiguity over it. In which case it would be best to leave it.

The Qur’an prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur’an 5:3] .

Wine is very frowned upon in Christianity:

“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise.” [Proverbs 20:1]

“And be not drunk with wine.” [Ephesians 5:18]

Prov 21:17 "where heavy drinking and gluttony are equally condemned"

1 Sam 1:14; Isa 5:11, 22; 28:1 'drunkenness is condemned'

(The list goes on here http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol)

Jesus PBUH and his beard
More Muslim men grow beards than Christians and we are associated with terrorism, Jesus PBUH has a beard, is he a terrorist? No, of course not.

I have never understood my mainstream Christians dont grow beards, and follow who they believe to be God. Wouldnt they want to be more like him?

(another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. (Source http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=...7&I temid=100))

Did God ever called Himself a Muslim?

Why would God call himself a Muslim? I know you are trying to say therefore why would Jesus PBUH call himself a Christian. But if Jesus was indeed God, why would be only be sent for the Jews, which he says himself (discussed lower down)

Jesus PBUH however did call himself a Muslim, its mentioned in the Quran in several places. There is even a chapter dedicated to Mary PBUH, the Bible does not even have such a thing.

Some verses that Jesus PBUH is mentioned in the Quran as a Muslim Include
Surah Ale Imran Ch3 V52
Surah Al Ma'idah Ch5 V116

Jesus PBUH himself says he was only sent for the Jews
'least of which the Jews' to which this specific said god was said t be sent!
15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Also, Jesus PBUH was not called 'Jesus' PBUH, that was not his name. In the origninal language it refers to Jesus PBUH as esaa(or something very similar I cannot remember) and we call him Isa PBUH in the Quran. Sheikh Ahmed Deedat brought up this point, on a youtube video. I will see if I can find it as a soruce.

I really could go on

[rpwelton]

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

Ever heard of something called forgiveness?

Laws in Islam are for the betterment of humanity. Punishments in Shari'a are a deterrent, and Muslim countries that operate by Shari'a are the better for it.

[bamboozled]

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

Hi,

you were saying that someone else didnt really answer your question, so I will give it a bash.

To be honest, I think the reason it was not replied to is because its hard to understand your point.

I think what you are saying is why do we believe that God will punish us for our sins, when we break His laws (i think) and how is he therefore merciful.

We Muslims follow Allahs command. We Muslims are not perfect and we break his commands but Allah is indeed the most forgiving.

It is narrated in in hadith AHMAD that:

The devil said yo his Lord(Allah):By your Majesty and Might, I will keep on trying to misguide mankind as long as their souls are in their bodies. His lord said to him: by my Majesty and Might, I will continue to forgive them so long as they seek my forgivness. :statisfie (I love Allahs words)

But then why does God punish us for our wrong sins, when he chooses on a rare occasion not to forgive us (Allah says my mercy out weights my anger- anyone help we out with a reference please). Because he is FAIR, HE IS JUST.

Allah says if he wills, he will forgive anything but Shirk.

But at the same time God is Just. Let me ask you, if someone raped or killed someones mother or killed their child, would you want them to be punished? Or Forgiven. Be honest.

In Christianity you belive that "god died for your sins", where is the justice in that. In the Quran Surah 53 Verse 38/39 It reads "no soul shall bear the burden of another". Jesus PBUH will not suffer for my sins, because thats not fair, not Just. I dont want him to suffer because of what I dont. Nor do I want to suffer because of what someone else does. Its not fair

In Islam saying your sorry and geniuely repenting is only the first step. Our actions have repurcutions. That does not neccesarily mean we will go to hell or get punished. It could mean that someone of our good deeds are given to the father of the man who lost his child. Or if we dont have enough good deeds then we suffer some of his time in hell for him (if he has any that God has not forgiven) as that person that killed his Son, caused him hell on earth. It is FAIR.

Islam is Just, fair and forgiving. If a child hits his brother, his mother will tell him off, but she loves him and does it for his own good and she will say dont do that (the the Quran has the do's and donts, the punishment is a repellent to keep us away from becoming evil people). The mother would not say oh its okay, that you hit him.

No law of any country lets you kill someone and then say, you will not go to jail because Jesus PBUH died for your sins. Because the world knows its not FAIR, NOT PRACTICAL, NOT JUST.

In Muslims countries do you know if you steal (unless it is for food for a starving family) then you can have you hand cut off. Do you know Muslim courties have the lowest theft rates, and rape rates. Its a deterrent. Islam is the solution to all the problems of makind.

[fromgenesis]

Lol are you for real? Did I say anything to you?

Alhamdulillah means Thank God, not a secret insult.

You're insult is uncalled for.

No insult intended. Sorry if I did. Thank God that you rely on intelligence rather than Himself? Still a pity.

[bamboozled]

Thank God that you rely on intelligence rather than Himself? Still a pity.

What?

You are basically saying sorry if I insulted you, I didn't mean to. Then subtly insulting the person.

Calm down, its a friendly debate bro. It does seem that becasue you cannot reply to the arguments you are talking down a little on people.

C'mon know lets be civilized.

[fromgenesis]

If they followed the original Gods word, instead of the even more altered New Testament, then the Christians and Muslims would have even more in common.

For example:

1. Burqa and Hijab

In the Bible it reads in 1 Timothy Ch2 V9:

"I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,"

Know you could argue that peoples interpretations of modest differ, but then wouldnt Mary PBUH be an example for women.

(source - http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-9.htm - which gives other translations)

Furthermore, if you look at Mother Mary, may Allah be pleased with her. She wears what Muslims women where similar to a burqa, identical to a hijab, she is covered from head to toe with only her hands and face showing.

(Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi...n_Province.jpg)

Women in Islam cover up, in the same manner that the nuns do:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nun (Look at this pics)

Do you know it says in the Bible that if a women shows of her hair, it should be shaved off.

Referring to dress of woman that call themselves Christian. I could not agree more with you. Although I may be old fashioned and the argument raised that God looks at the heart and not the outward, my response would be that the outward reflects the heart. I stand in shame at the manner in which some woman dress.
Also

Pork in Christianity

Pork is banned in Christianity:
Or unclear and therefore should at least be avoided.

"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."[Leviticus 11:7-8]

"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
[Deuteronomy 14:8]

"Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day."
[Isaiah 65:4-5]

Of course Christians still eat it, even though there is ambiguity over it. In which case it would be best to leave it.

The Qur’an prohibits the consumption of pork in no less than 4 different places. It is prohibited in 2:173, 5:3, 6:145 and 16:115.

"Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah." [Al-Qur’an 5:3] .

Jesus told the Pharisees that it is not that which man eat, defile him, but that which comes out of the heart.
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
But if you are unsure (or offend a brother) you should abstain
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is ****ed if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Wine is very frowned upon in Christianity:

“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise.” [Proverbs 20:1]

“And be not drunk with wine.” [Ephesians 5:18]

Prov 21:17 "where heavy drinking and gluttony are equally condemned"

1 Sam 1:14; Isa 5:11, 22; 28:1 'drunkenness is condemned'

(The list goes on here http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol)

I think it is good to abstain from alcoholic beverages and specifically to abuse it. You are right. I do not believe that the moderate consumption of wine is wrong. Jesus changed water into wine. Again it is not the specific item, but that which is in the heart. Wine and alcohol can lead to much problems and is a sensitive issue for many. Rather stay away - but it in itself is no sin. Things in themselves are not problems, it is what we do with it. In the same manner your eyes could cause you to sin, but your eyes in themselves are not sinful.

Jesus PBUH and his beard
More Muslim men grow beards than Christians and we are associated with terrorism, Jesus PBUH has a beard, is he a terrorist? No, of course not.

I have never understood my mainstream Christians dont grow beards, and follow who they believe to be God. Wouldnt they want to be more like him?

Again I think that outward signs are not what it is all about. We should rather follow Jesus in what He did, rather than the outward signs of who He is.But beards are nice

(another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. ())Source http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=...7&I temid=100

If you do not accept the Bible as the truth, then evidence may be scant.However, in the Bible, the following speaks for itself:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Some verses that Jesus PBUH is mentioned in the Quran as a Muslim Include
Surah Ale Imran Ch3 V52
Surah Al Ma'idah Ch5 V116

I am sure you are correct that it is mentioned like that in the Quor'an. That does however not follow that what Jesus taught is similar to what is being taught by Muslims. To the contrary, the very opposite of many things. But I suppose the problem is that you do not accept the Bible and the teachings of Christ. For one, who Jesus was, his death and resurrection.

Jesus PBUH himself says he was only sent for the Jews
'least of which the Jews' to which this specific said god was said t be sent!
15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

It is true - the Jews had to reject Christ- in the will of the Father. A complete answer on this will only lead me to speculate. It is however also very obvious that Jesus' message is for every tribe and nation - as was His request Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:No, we cannot get away with that -Jesus' message is for each of us - to accept or to reject

Hope I answered your questions to some satisfaction.

[fromgenesis]

Ever heard of something called forgiveness?

Laws in Islam are for the betterment of humanity. Punishments in Shari'a are a deterrent, and Muslim countries that operate by Shari'a are the better for it.

Yes, of course their is forgiveness. But does forgiveness exclude justice? This is an argument many Christians use as well - God will forgive. They can live a life based on their likes and dislikes and what they make God out to be. He has however revealed in his Word that there is a day of reckoning/judgement. From the Christian point of view (based on the Bible), I am unable to stand before God and argue with Him about my holiness - I stand guilty for the sins I have done. On what basis then can God be just and have mercy? God in his mercy has provided the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that justice is done - Jesus paid for my sins on the cross. His mercy is a gift I do not deserve.

I notice with some trepidation that punishment does not have to be just - it must only act as a deterrent. I agree that this works really well as it does limit crime etc.

[fromgenesis]

What?

You are basically saying sorry if I insulted you, I didn't mean to. Then subtly insulting the person.

Calm down, its a friendly debate bro. It does seem that becasue you cannot reply to the arguments you are talking down a little on people.

C'mon know lets be civilized.

Hi bro, I see this as nothing else but a friendly debate. My subtlety amaze me as I had no intention of insulting anyone. The only intention is to indicate that human intelligence fall far short and God is the ultimate answer- Whom we can approach.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

No insult intended. Sorry if I did. Thank God that you rely on intelligence rather than Himself? Still a pity.

What in the world. Is that all you know how to do, insult? I'm starting to wonder if you're mentally unstable?

How much more are you willing to contradict yourself? You're full of nonsense. I don't need pity from the likes of you, but rather, I pity someone like you.

[rpwelton]

Yes, of course their is forgiveness. But does forgiveness exclude justice? This is an argument many Christians use as well - God will forgive. They can live a life based on their likes and dislikes and what they make God out to be. He has however revealed in his Word that there is a day of reckoning/judgement. From the Christian point of view (based on the Bible), I am unable to stand before God and argue with Him about my holiness - I stand guilty for the sins I have done. On what basis then can God be just and have mercy? God in his mercy has provided the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that justice is done - Jesus paid for my sins on the cross. His mercy is a gift I do not deserve.

I notice with some trepidation that punishment does not have to be just - it must only act as a deterrent. I agree that this works really well as it does limit crime etc.

God is Most Just, and He forgives whom He wills. Our argument is not the Christian argument; we believe that unless we repent and turn away from sin, God will punish us. However, we also hope for His mercy. A Muslim lives in a balance between the two (hope and fear).

We do not justify any sin by saying "God will forgive us, no problem". We must come to Him in prayer and sincerely ask for forgiveness and give up our sinful ways. This is far different than the doctrine of some Christians who say God will forgive all sin, therefor sin is OK. That is an unacceptable position in Islam, and it is nothing short of arrogance.

We do not know how God is going to judge us, although He has spelled out guidelines in the Qur'an relating to the punishment for various sins that a person commits. Ultimately He can forgive whom He wants, but we also understand that He is Most Just and Most Merciful.

The Christian idea of Jesus dying for the sins of the world is nonsense; where is the justice in that? An innocent man (or was it God, I get confused) is sacrificed because God can't forgive the sins of man? Astaughfirallah (that means "O Allah forgive me"). Does...not...compute.

Although we do not compare Allah to His creation, this is like a game creator who makes his game so difficult that not a single person can beat the game without a cheat code that allows them to win the game. What's the point in that? Why would God create this life as a test if He's just going to give us a free pass? Shouldn't we all be accountable for our actions?

[A-Believer-25]

Jesus (Peace be upon him) is a Muslim. All Prophets of God are Muslims

[Uthman]

Jesus (Peace be upon him) is a Muslim. All Prophets of God are Muslims

Good point. In the linguistic sense, Prophet 'Isa (peace be upon him) was a Muslim, since by linguistic definition, a Muslim is one who submits himself to the will of God.

[bamboozled]

Yes, of course their is forgiveness. But does forgiveness exclude justice? This is an argument many Christians use as well - God will forgive. They can live a life based on their likes and dislikes and what they make God out to be. He has however revealed in his Word that there is a day of reckoning/judgement. From the Christian point of view (based on the Bible), I am unable to stand before God and argue with Him about my holiness - I stand guilty for the sins I have done. On what basis then can God be just and have mercy? God in his mercy has provided the ultimate sacrifice to make sure that justice is done - Jesus paid for my sins on the cross. His mercy is a gift I do not deserve.

I notice with some trepidation that punishment does not have to be just - it must only act as a deterrent. I agree that this works really well as it does limit crime etc.

Did you read my thread that responded to your points above (its was my 2nd post in this thread) it responds to all your points. About justice and punishment, check it out. Page 2.

[bamboozled]

I havnt really got time to reply to all your replies but I will tonight Inshallah.
Just to answer this one that caught my eye. About Jesus PBUH claiming divinity. you missed my point, I said there was not a single unambiguous statement in the entire bible where Jesus PBUH says, HIMSELF " I am god" or "Worship me". You would think something so important God would have made obvious like in the Quran. Mashallah no grey areas.

I said:

"another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. " and then I gave the link directly after. The 2nd quote you gave I cant understand, the language confuses me, and I dont want to say it means something it doesnt. Someone else I am sure can help me there.

If you do not accept the Bible as the truth, then evidence may be scant.However, in the Bible, the following speaks for itself:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

My brother and I are Muslims. I and my brother are one. Doesnt mean we are the same person, only we have the same purpose.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Where does he claim divinity here. If anything this supports my point about God and Jesus PBUH being same in purpose.

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my father" - Same purpose, not person.

"and henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." God told Jesus PBUH how to handle the people, he acted on Gods behalf as a messenger. Jesus PBUH represented Gods Law. He never said I am god.

He preched quite the contrary:
"(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]"

Furthermore
The bible even says that Jesus is a Prophet not God:
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

(i)"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

(ii)"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]"


http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=...127&Itemid=100

Again, there is not a single unambigous statement in the entire bible where Jesus PBUH says I am god, or worship me. He is a Prophet of God,according to even your scriptures.

[جوري]

Again, your answer does not address the issue of justice. To recap what I said earlier
"You have the law that you must obey - and rely on Him being merciful although you transgress his laws? Where would justice feature? Ignore that altogether? Justice requires that there must be retribution. Your laws show that. You have some of the strictest laws in Muslim countries. Only as deterrent or is there some justice to it?"

I have no idea what you are rambling about, and to be honest I can't be made to waste my time on more nonsense.
tell me where is the 'retribution' when god allegedly ate your sin, so that you can sin carte blanche?

The laws of justice of this world, only cover your crimes done in this world. the question of retribution/ forgiveness, has to do with sincere repentance, and expiation of your sin, for instance if you committed murder, the expiation of that grave sin is to be put to death as well, however, to be forgiven for it, has to do with sincere repentance and only God can judge whether you're actually sorry for your crimes and sins or not, it is a matter of divine justice not delegated to humans. It is Not a matter of a man/god eating sins, so we can murder, be put away for life with health insurance and three square meals, and then be well received at the pearly gates.



hope that clarifies it for you, and I hope you realize how silly your spin on retribution sounds to the rest of the world!

all the best

[Follower]

The laws of justice of this world, only cover your crimes done in this world. the question of retribution/ forgiveness, has to do with sincere repentance, and expiation of your sin, for instance if you committed murder, the expiation of that grave sin is to be put to death as well, however, to be forgiven for it, has to do with sincere repentance and only God can judge whether you're actually sorry for your crimes and sins or not, it is a matter of divine justice not delegated to humans.

Gossamer - Are you saying that all one has to do is sincerely repent and we all go to paradise?

Don't you have to do some good deeds too to out weitgh the bad deeds?

[Zafran]

Gossamer - Are you saying that all one has to do is sincerely repent and we all go to paradise?

Don't you have to do some good deeds too to out weitgh the bad deeds?

You have to rely on God's mercy to Go to heaven
are you saying that a rapist who does not repent is going to heaven??? or a man that beats his parents and doesnt repent will go to heaven???

Or do you have to believe someone died for you instead?

[A-Believer-25]

:sl:

God does not need someone to die to forgive sins, God is All Powerful, He can forgive anyone He wants. Jesus (peace be upon him) was only a prophet. There are even places in the Bible which prove that Jesus (Peace be upon him) was only a human being and a prophet and not God. Astaghfirullah

[fromgenesis]

God is Most Just, and He forgives whom He wills. Our argument is not the Christian argument; we believe that unless we repent and turn away from sin, God will punish us. However, we also hope for His mercy. A Muslim lives in a balance between the two (hope and fear).

Repent and turn away from sin is the exact same in Christianity. What we however say in Christianity is that we still sin. In Islam you rely on Allah's mercy, and works to get to heaven for the sin that you still do. In Christianity we say that my works mean nothing and we can only rely on the blood of Jesus as the holy, sinless sacrifice for our sins. Why were sheep etc slaughtered in the Old Testament? As a sacrifice for sin - pointing forward to Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice when He was "slaughtered" for our sins.

We do not justify any sin by saying "God will forgive us, no problem". We must come to Him in prayer and sincerely ask for forgiveness and give up our sinful ways. This is far different than the doctrine of some Christians who say God will forgive all sin, therefor sin is OK. That is an unacceptable position in Islam, and it is nothing short of arrogance.

You are 100% correct. Not only arrogance but a total misunderstanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

The Christian idea of Jesus dying for the sins of the world is nonsense; where is the justice in that? An innocent man (or was it God, I get confused) is sacrificed because God can't forgive the sins of man? Astaughfirallah (that means "O Allah forgive me"). Does...not...compute.

What was the issue with sacrificing animals for the sin of people?

Although we do not compare Allah to His creation, this is like a game creator who makes his game so difficult that not a single person can beat the game without a cheat code that allows them to win the game. What's the point in that? Why would God create this life as a test if He's just going to give us a free pass? Shouldn't we all be accountable for our actions?

Again you are right. We cannot win the game. Now us as humans want to win the game by our cleverness and good works. As humble people we come to God and say" God, I cannot win this game. But your free pass only requires of me to submit to you as all knowing, and accept this free pass without deserving it. I know it cost you so much to give this free pass to me, and I stand before you in humility and thankfulness.

[fromgenesis]

I havnt really got time to reply to all your replies but I will tonight Inshallah.

Thank you. Time is also a problem for me and thus appreciate your effort.

I said:

"another side note, Jesus never HIMSELF unambiguously claimed divinity, ever. " and then I gave the link directly after. The 2nd quote you gave I cant understand, the language confuses me, and I dont want to say it means something it doesnt. Someone else I am sure can help me there.



My brother and I are Muslims. I and my brother are one. Doesnt mean we are the same person, only we have the same purpose.



Where does he claim divinity here. If anything this supports my point about God and Jesus PBUH being same in purpose.

"If ye had known me, ye should have known my father" - Same purpose, not person.

"and henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." God told Jesus PBUH how to handle the people, he acted on Gods behalf as a messenger. Jesus PBUH represented Gods Law. He never said I am god.

He preched quite the contrary:
"(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]"

Furthermore
The bible even says that Jesus is a Prophet not God:
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:

(i)"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

(ii)"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]"


http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=...127&Itemid=100

Again, there is not a single unambigous statement in the entire bible where Jesus PBUH says I am god, or worship me. He is a Prophet of God,according to even your scriptures.

It may be more clear what Jesus said if you were to claim the same. Now I suggest that people will make you out as either a nut case, or heavily disillusioned. That is what you have to decide. Was Jesus mistaken, deranged or was He speaking the truth? As far as what He was saying is concerned, you may find it difficult to accept or to understand but the Jews of the time understood exactly what He said:
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. He never claimed to be the Father, as you rightly point out - He placed himself under the authority of the Father - yet equal to Him. This forms part of the principle of the Trinity- where God reveals himself as God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

[malayloveislam]

G-d, I never realize that this is a long thread!!! It's OK, but I don't think that Muslim brothers and sisters are arguing instead of explaining our belief to others, I don't believe in debate, because Truth will Prevail without the need to argue, instead it will come through Knowledge and Wisdom and of course all of those are granted by G-d.

Well, sacrifice of animal (ram, cow, camel) is Abrahamic tradition friend...

It's based from the sacrifice of Abraham (as) when he loves his son too much. G-d tests him at that time. Whether he loves G-d more or his family member. However, Abraham (as) and Ishmael (as) passed the test, and G-d ordered an angel to replace Ishmael (as) being replaced by a ram. They brought back the ram to their tent after the test. In Islamic tradition based from Abrahamic tradition, it's Ishmael who was going to be sacrificed but in Jews tradition, they claim that it's Isaac. That's another point and not the main point here for now. The main point is Qurban (sacrifice).

In Islam, we sacrifice animals like camel, ram, and cow in the celebration of Eidul-Adha (Qurban) apart of the act of worship but it's not for the offering to G-d because He doesn't need offerings or any blood offerings. The meat that we get from animal sacrifice will be distributed to other poor people so that they could together consume the meat. This is also a test to those who are with the belongings. Whether, they love their belongings (money, poultry, etc) or Allah (SWT). It also teaches us the meaning of sacrifice in the path of G-d, that is what Qurban means.

[malayloveislam]

Thank you. Time is also a problem for me and thus appreciate your effort.
It may be more clear what Jesus said if you were to claim the same. Now I suggest that people will make you out as either a nut case, or heavily disillusioned. That is what you have to decide. Was Jesus mistaken, deranged or was He speaking the truth? As far as what He was saying is concerned, you may find it difficult to accept or to understand but the Jews of the time understood exactly what He said:
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. He never claimed to be the Father, as you rightly point out - He placed himself under the authority of the Father - yet equal to Him. This forms part of the principle of the Trinity- where God reveals himself as God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.

So, is this implies that all of us are also the children of G-d if we take it metaphorically or literally? We are all equal to Him? Then, what is the need for us to worship Him anymore? Isn't it we should worship ourselves? Because we also put ourselves under the authority of G-d. We submit ourselves to G-d, that's why we are now here as Muslims. Also, other prophets and messengers of G-d, are all the children of G-d? I can't get it? Does it also means G-d reveals Himself in us?

[fromgenesis]

G-d, I never realize that this is a long thread!!!

Is the use of God's name in vain tolerated in Islam?

Well, sacrifice of animal (ram, cow, camel) is Abrahamic tradition friend...

It's based from the sacrifice of Abraham (as) when he loves his son too much. G-d tests him at that time. Whether he loves G-d more or his family member. However, Abraham (as) and Ishmael (as) passed the test, and G-d ordered an angel to replace Ishmael (as) being replaced by a ram. They brought back the ram to their tent after the test. In Islamic tradition based from Abrahamic tradition, it's Ishmael who was going to be sacrificed but in Jews tradition, they claim that it's Isaac. That's another point and not the main point here for now. The main point is Qurban (sacrifice).

In Islam, we sacrifice animals like camel, ram, and cow in the celebration of Eidul-Adha (Qurban) apart of the act of worship but it's not for the offering to G-d because He doesn't need offerings or any blood offerings. The meat that we get from animal sacrifice will be distributed to other poor people so that they could together consume the meat. This is also a test to those who are with the belongings. Whether, they love their belongings (money, poultry, etc) or Allah (SWT). It also teaches us the meaning of sacrifice in the path of G-d, that is what Qurban means.

Yes, I can see that it may have become that in tradition. Christians sacrificed to God, some of which were as sin offering. The emphasis was not on giving up of earthly things, as is clear from reading Scripture.

The animals sacrificed in Christian practices had to be clean animals without blemish - a pure sacrifice.

In Christianity we take the origin back a bit further - To Cain and Abel after the fall, Moses, sacrificing to God, the lamb slain and blood on the door posts in the night that the first born of the Egyptians were killed, sacrifices by Aaron to God etc.

Why would you have to sacrifice animals - why not just give it away to the poor?

[fromgenesis]

So, is this implies that all of us are also the children of G-d if we take it metaphorically or literally? We are all equal to Him? Then, what is the need for us to worship Him anymore? Isn't it we should worship ourselves? Because we also put ourselves under the authority of G-d. We submit ourselves to G-d, that's why we are now here as Muslims. Also, other prophets and messengers of G-d, are all the children of G-d? I can't get it? Does it also means G-d reveals Himself in us?

That is the point. The Jews regarded themselves as children of God (and so do we) but not equal to Him. What Jesus said implied that He is equal to God. Therefore it would be impossible for us to say that "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" in response to a request to "Show us the Father". We are made in the image of God in what is described as Adam and Eve's moral disposition - called original righteousness (Ecc 7:29 Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things/Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.)

[malayloveislam]

Is the use of God's name in vain tolerated in Islam?

It's just an expression of surprise, nothing in vain. I would just use Ma-shaa-Allah (Anything that G-d wants) but since we use English, we have to at least try to be close to English language way when communicate although English isn't my first language :statisfie

Yes, I can see that it may have become that in tradition. Christians sacrificed to God, some of which were as sin offering. The emphasis was not on giving up of earthly things, as is clear from reading Scripture.

The animals sacrificed in Christian practices had to be clean animals without blemish - a pure sacrifice.

In Christianity we take the origin back a bit further - To Cain and Abel after the fall, Moses, sacrificing to God, the lamb slain and blood on the door posts in the night that the first born of the Egyptians were killed, sacrifices by Aaron to God etc.

Why would you have to sacrifice animals - why not just give it away to the poor?

Yea, Abel and Cain offerings signify sincerity that is shown through the offerings, but still G-d doesn't really need any offerings in the form of vegetation, meat, burnt offerings, blood, or anything. He is just testing His slaves, which actually teaches His slaves to face the life before entering the other world.

Why G-d should take the sin as offering? He clears the sin through His forgiveness when His slaves sincerely repent from wrong-doings. Each days we always committing wrong-doings, orally, verbally, mentally, and etc without we realize it or we realize it.

So, we still have to ask His forgiveness through prayer acts. Those repenting from the sin, praising, etc are all concluded in our daily prayers, five times day and night. We do not know how He forgives our sins, or whether our sins are all forgiven. But there is a sign for it. When you are more dedicated to the path of righteousness, and you feel bad committing evil things. However, if we feel that we are forgiven by G-d, there must be something wrong with it. Because we will think that we can anytime commit falsehood.

Why not giving them away to the poor instead of sacrificing them?

The sacrifice of animals (ram, camel, cow, etc) is the commemoration of Abraham (as) and his son, and among the acts of worship. We have other commemoration events like the effort of Hagar, and the stoning of deceiving satan (symbolic acts in pilgrimage rites) during Eidul-Adha which is also a pilgrimage season. This event is only in Eidul-Adha (Qurban), once a year, every Zulhijjah month of lunar calender.

There are few methods of Qurban when choosing the animal that are going to be sacrificed, it must not a handicapped animal, and also we could not cause the animal so much pain including we could not harm it or showing the blade that is going to be used. Also cutting the certain vein of animal which will cause immediate death to the animal without it feels the pain. The bones of the animal is also respected and couldn't be simply thrown into the dustbin, but have to be buried correctly. I can't explain much about the method because I'm not involved in the process. You may view the methods of Qurban or getting explanation from other members whom are more well versed about the method or were involved in the process, yet it's not the main purpose of the thread.

It's to make it easier for the poor so that, they don't have to go in vain slaughtering the animal and to make sure that everybody gets the meat equally, so that's why they slaughter it together. It is a feast, not a personal contribution. Actually there are also donation being made by other Muslims who are capable to buy the cow, camel, ram and being donated to the mosque committee, then the animal being sacrificed and the meat will be distributed to everyone.

If for the harvest, belongings, money, gold, silver, and etc. We have a special purification for them called Zakah. It is almost close to "Tithe" which is practiced by 16th C Catholics. But this is not for monastic or priest community but for poor Muslim. Because in our property, not all of them is our belongings. We might have the part of others, so we have several methods, specific time, categories of people who are qualified to receive Zakah, and calculation to pay the Zakah. It's also our pillar of religion beside obligatory prayers, and testimony of faith, they are all connected to each other. We are not a Muslim if we do not obey Zakah and other four pillars of religion :statisfie

[malayloveislam]

That is the point. The Jews regarded themselves as children of God (and so do we) but not equal to Him. What Jesus said implied that He is equal to God. Therefore it would be impossible for us to say that "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father" in response to a request to "Show us the Father".

We are made in the image of God in what is described as Adam and Eve's moral disposition - called original righteousness (Ecc 7:29 Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things/Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.)

So, you believe that Jesus is a perfect being? So do we, he's among of our noble prophets and clean from any sins. We believe all of the prophets including Lot, david, Solomon, and others are all clean of any sin because G-d do not permit them to be sinful as they are prophets and His messengers to His slaves. But what made us different from Christians? We are made in the image of G-d? Jesus is the image of G-d? Sorry, I'm just analyzing it one by one.

In our previous belief in SEA, where our ancestors embraced Hindu-Buddhism, our kings are regarded as the image of G-d. That's why you can see certain people like in Thailand bow to their king.

So, we are alike Jesus. Because we have ears, eyes, nose, mouth, lips, hands, and other body parts. But we are divided into men and women, so we have genders.

But according to our faith and I believe the Jews too, we can't imagine G-d's image and He's of no gender instead of we use "He" which shows a male gender because it is translated from Arabic. This Universe isn't equal to Him, including those who inhabit the earth or walks in it. If He reveals Himself, why can't the Jews see Him when they ask Moses (as) to pray to G-d to reveal Himself in Thursina Mountain (Sinai)?

Who said this? It seems like an interpretation with quotation.

(Ecc 7:29 Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things/Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.)

[fromgenesis]

We do not know how He forgives our sins, or whether our sins are all forgiven. But there is a sign for it. When you are more dedicated to the path of righteousness, and you feel bad committing evil things. However, if we feel that we are forgiven by G-d, there must be something wrong with it. Because we will think that we can anytime commit falsehood.

Feeling that we are forgiven by God is not to think that we can do as we wish. God has given us his laws written on our hearts and if you love God, you will obey. To feel forgiven, creates within us a deep thankfulness when we know that despite our failings from time to time, He loved us enough to send us his Son, so that we may enjoy eternal life. You can know that your sins are forgiven - not because of what you did (we always sin despite some very good deeds) but because of what Jesus did - offering himself as a willing sacrifice for our sins. You can live with joy without the Satan accusing you that you are not doing enough, making you feeling guilty. This forgiveness is a gift. Our human hearts are often too proud to accept this gift - we want to earn it.

Why not giving them away to the poor instead of sacrificing them?

Thank you for your explanation and going into such detail. I can see that the ritual seems to also have some religious overtones but as a religious offering, I do not quite see the rationale/symbolism/type. :statisfie

[fromgenesis]

So, you believe that Jesus is a perfect being? So do we, he's among of our noble prophets and clean from any sins. We believe all of the prophets including Lot, david, Solomon, and others are all clean of any sin because G-d do not permit them to be sinful as they are prophets and His messengers to His slaves.

Jesus was without sin as was evidenced by the fact that they had to use trumped-up charges to convict Him. However, more than mere prophet, Jesus forgave sin (Mat 9:2). Can a prophet forgive sin? To claim David sinless, you will have to ignore his affair with Bathsheba and that he knowingly sent her husband to his grave.

But what made us different from Christians? We are made in the image of G-d? Jesus is the image of G-d? Sorry, I'm just analyzing it one by one.

We were all made in the image of God, but that righteousness was destroyed in the garden of Eden when man rejected God's rules. We are now in a fallen state - removed from God by sin - that we inherit and that which we commit ourselves. There is only one way in which this relationship can be restored - through the blood of Jesus. The difference is always Jesus. Few have a problem with the concept of God, but Jesus is the stumbling block.(1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; )

So, we are alike Jesus. Because we have ears, eyes, nose, mouth, lips, hands, and other body parts. But we are divided into men and women, so we have genders.

Yes, Jesus was sent from the Father, humbled himself to become mortal man, yet without sinning.
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If He reveals Himself, why can't the Jews see Him when they ask Moses (as) to pray to G-d to reveal Himself in Thursina Mountain (Sinai)?

Which passage do you refer to?

Who said this? It seems like an interpretation with quotation.

It is normally attributed to Solomon.

[Uthman]

Are we still talking about whether Christ was a Christian?

[fromgenesis]

Are we still talking about whether Christ was a Christian?

I think we have digressed slightly and looking at the nature of Jesus. Should we rather start another thread?

[Uthman]

Should we rather start another thread?

Yes please! :)

:threadclo