/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Qu’ran not to be taken literally



Thinker
08-17-2009, 06:50 PM
“How Do You Know God Exists?”

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/r...es-8/episode-1

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...TV-Review.html

I watched a programme last night on Channel 4 which asked the question “How Do You Know God Exists?” The key figures interviewed were the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Westminster Vincent Nichols, Muslim theologian Tariq Ramadan, Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks and Hindu Sadhu Paramtattvadas.

In general the programme was a bit of a damp squid with some wishy washy answers.

The presenter pointed out that they were unable to interview the head of Islam in the UK as there was none so it interviewed a man named Tariq Ramadan. On his web site, (http://www.tariqramadan.com/spip.php?lang=en ) this man describes himself as . . . . Professor Tariq Ramadan holds MA in Philosophy and French literature and PhD in Arabic and Islamic Studies from the University of Geneva. In Cairo, Egypt he received one-on-one intensive training in classic Islamic scholarship from Al-Azhar University scholars.

On several occasions he explained away aspect of the Qu’ran as not to be taken literally as it was written at a time and to be understood by 7th Century Arabs. For example when he asked about the description of heaven and hell he said, for example, that the heavenly rewards promised in the Qu’ran were a description of the types of rewards that a 7th century Arab would expect and that it wasn’t to be taken literally. That all makes sense to me, I have said similar thing many times on this forum. The question is, do you agree; do you agree that the words of the Qu’ran need not be taken literally and if the words of the Qu’ran need not be taken literally as they were aimed at 7thC Arabs, does it not follow that the sunnah was the ways, practices and customs of 7thC Arabs which might not be appropriate in the 21stC?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
جوري
08-17-2009, 07:05 PM
3:7 He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ- as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.

__________________________

that which is literal is literal.. that which is allegorical is allegorical .. but you need to be deeply rooted in knowledge as the Quran tells us as to not render the explanation of your choosing, else you end up being one of those (with deviant intentions) also as the verse suggests...
that being said, The Quran is for every century, and not open to re-interpretation.. it is a done deal!


all the best
Reply

rpwelton
08-17-2009, 07:36 PM
^^

I agree with Sister Skye. There may be parts of the Qur'an that are allegorical or more metaphorical in nature (such as the verse discussing the thread and determining the fast in Ramadan), but there are also many verses that are literal (ie, the punishments in hell and the rewards in heaven).

I don't see how a Muslim could say that the Qur'an really only applies to 7th century Arabs...it is a timeless Book that will continue to be relevant for all nations at all points in time.

I haven't seen the program, but if Tariq Ramadan really said that the Qur'an can be re-interpreted by every new generation (correct me if I misunderstood his point of view), then this is wrong. If this were the case, then Islam would have changed many times over the last 1400 years. Thank God it has not.
Reply

alcurad
08-17-2009, 07:45 PM
the qur'an is open to interpretation since there is no official interpretation. but one has to be knowledgeable of many things before doing it.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
جوري
08-17-2009, 07:50 PM
^^ what I meant by re-interpretation is the secularization of it.. not that we can't look into it for meaning.. in other word it is transcendent and not specific to 7th c as some will have you believe...

:w:
Reply

rpwelton
08-17-2009, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
the qur'an is open to interpretation since there is no official interpretation. but one has to be knowledgeable of many things before doing it.
I think by re-interpretation we're referring to the notion that we can come up with something that goes against what Prophet Muhammad taught (ie, as Thinker suggests, re-interpreting the Sunnah), believing that parts of the Qur'an only applied to 7th century Arabs. Of course there are differences of opinion on many aspects of the Qur'an, but these have always existed.

For example, some modernists and critics of the Abrahamic faiths say that the reason for prohibiting pork was because it was not safe to keep it in those hot, desert environments.. They say that since we have refrigerators today, it's OK to eat it. Re-interpreting those verses in the Qur'an that prohibited pork to be no longer relevant today is not acceptable. God gave us a law, and we're obliged to stick to it, even if we don't fully understand the reason behind it.

Anyways, that's how I understood it, but like I said, I haven't seen the program so it's tough to judge Tariq Ramadan's statement in a vacuum.
Reply

alcurad
08-17-2009, 07:54 PM
oh, ok.
Reply

Zafran
08-17-2009, 08:03 PM
salaam

syke nailed it - The quran itself shows that there are literal and non literal verses.

peace
Reply

Thinker
08-18-2009, 09:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
that which is literal is literal.. that which is allegorical is allegorical .. but you need to be deeply rooted in knowledge as the Quran tells us as to not render the explanation of your choosing, else you end up being one of those (with deviant intentions) also as the verse suggests...
that being said, The Quran is for every century, and not open to re-interpretation.. it is a done deal!
Hmm that smacks a little like don’t think for yourself or only smart people can see the king's magic suit ( http://www.angelfire.com/film/dannyk...ngsClothes.htm ).

OK, literal and allegorical – we could ponder on the question of why God, knowing the confusion it would bring, would want to include the allegorical but by the bye. . . . . certain obvious questions follow:

1. How do we identify what is literal from what is allegorical?
2. If no ‘no one knows its [the allegorical] hidden meanings except Allah’ surely it must be ignored because you can not know what it means?
3. Next, ‘albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight’ or Ali’s translation – ‘and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding’ . . . it is not clear whether this line refers to the literal or the allegorical or both.
4. ‘Men of understanding’ – I presume these are the ‘scholars’ that are constantly spoken of – is Tariq Ramadan not a scholar?
Reply

Caller الداعي
08-18-2009, 11:34 AM
salam
the quran is the book of @llah and so its meaning is also from @llah so interprting as we like according to our desires is totally wrong . Yes times do change but the meaning of the quran doesnt change and never will even if ppl will try to hijack and force their views onto the quran yeh its a free country but not a free quran !
Reply

جوري
08-18-2009, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hmm that smacks a little like don’t think for yourself or only smart people can see the king's magic suit ( http://www.angelfire.com/film/dannyk...ngsClothes.htm ).
Perhaps that would be the case if seeking knowledge in Islam was only so for a select few Illuminati.. but it is in fact mandatory on every Muslim..
OK, literal and allegorical – we could ponder on the question of why God, knowing the confusion it would bring, would want to include the allegorical but by the bye. . . . . certain obvious questions follow:
I don't see any confusion given that 85% are in consensus .. minor variations hardly constitute 'confusion'
1. How do we identify what is literal from what is allegorical?
You'll have to read the verse or ask if you personally don't know..
2. If no ‘no one knows its [the allegorical] hidden meanings except Allah’ surely it must be ignored because you can not know what it means?
No, it can't be ignored, for that is the article of faith and that is what separates the believers from the non..

from the second chapter:
Alif. Lam. Mim.

2 THIS DIVINE WRIT - let there be no doubt about it - is [meant to be] a guidance for all the God-conscious

3 who believe in [the existence of] that which is beyond the reach of human perception, and are constant in prayer, and spend on others out of what We provide for them as sustenance;



3. Next, ‘albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight’ or Ali’s translation – ‘and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding’ . . . it is not clear whether this line refers to the literal or the allegorical or both.
Both.


4. ‘Men of understanding’ – I presume these are the ‘scholars’ that are constantly spoken of – is Tariq Ramadan not a scholar?
Scholars (men and women) to use the masculine in Arabic doesn't necessarily exclude the feminine (but I digress) I don't know who Tariq Ramadan is.. his name sounds suspicious .. nonetheless, if his opinion is shared by sunni scholars and he has graduated from an institution that produces scholars then he is.. otherwise he isn't...

can't become an architect and presume that it would also make you a scholar on marine biology...
your in depth expertise is usually limited to your area of scholarship.. that is not denote that you are ignorant of other areas, it just means you are not a specialist in said field.. common things are common sense to all.. people seek specialists because there is something they know, that isn't common to the rest..

hope that clarifies it?

all the best
Reply

MSalman
08-18-2009, 06:22 PM
I am sure the followings would answer your questions thinker:
Reply

czgibson
08-18-2009, 06:50 PM
Geetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
Anyways, that's how I understood it, but like I said, I haven't seen the program so it's tough to judge Tariq Ramadan's statement in a vacuum.
Thinker has given a link to the programme which will still work for another 28 days. I'm watching it now.

There's more about Tariq Ramadan here.

Peace
Reply

rpwelton
08-18-2009, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Geetings,


Thinker has given a link to the programme which will still work for another 28 days. I'm watching it now.

There's more about Tariq Ramadan here.

Peace
For some reason the player is giving me an error saying "Service not available in your area". Do I have to live in Europe to watch this?

I'll check out your link on Tariq Ramadan.
Reply

czgibson
08-18-2009, 07:01 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by rpwelton
For some reason the player is giving me an error saying "Service not available in your area". Do I have to live in Europe to watch this?
That may be the case - that's a bit of a pain.

I found a link to it on YouTube so hopefully you'll be able to watch it there.

Peace
Reply

MSalman
08-18-2009, 07:18 PM
The following line from Wikipedia about Tariq shows where he stands:
In general he believes in the need to continue to reinterpret the Qur'an in order to correctly understand Islamic philosophy.
Mr. Tariq, what you really want to say is that you want to reinterpret the Qur'an because you are ashamed of your religion. Freaking modernist and these guys, who want to change the religion, are called scholars. They make me +o(
Reply

جوري
08-18-2009, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
The following line from Wikipedia about Tariq shows where he stands:
In general he believes in the need to continue to reinterpret the Qur'an in order to correctly understand Islamic philosophy.
Mr. Tariq, what you really want to say is that you want to reinterpret the Qur'an because you are ashamed of your religion. Freaking modernist and these guys, who want to change the religion, are called scholars. They make me +o(
simple case of secularizing Islam as was done with the others :hmm:
they only fool themselves by taking charlatans for scholars and forcing the terms on the rest of us.. Islam will be preserved by God's will insha'Allah..

61:8] Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: but Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

:w:
Reply

czgibson
08-18-2009, 07:30 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
The following line from Wikipedia about Tariq shows where he stands:
In general he believes in the need to continue to reinterpret the Qur'an in order to correctly understand Islamic philosophy.
Mr. Tariq, what you really want to say is that you want to reinterpret the Qur'an because you are ashamed of your religion.
He's clearly a reformist. I'm interested to find out what his ideas are about "European Islam".

Freaking modernist and these guys, who want to change the religion, are called scholars. They make me +o(
He's taught theology at Oxford University - that's quite scholarly.

Peace
Reply

MSalman
08-18-2009, 07:51 PM
^yeh, maybe scholar in general meaning of the word but he is definitely not an Islamic scholar, which what Thinker originally thought or was trying to put forward as (I think)
Reply

Uthman
08-18-2009, 07:55 PM
Greetings czgibson,
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
I'm interested to find out what his ideas are about "European Islam".
This article was written by him.

Regards
Reply

czgibson
08-18-2009, 07:58 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by islamiclife
^yeh, maybe scholar in general meaning of the word but he is definitely not an Islamic scholar, which what Thinker originally thought or was trying to put forward as (I think)
I think people ought to make it clear that they mean 'Islamic scholar', because clearly there's a big difference between the two meanings.

Thanks for the article, Uthman, I'll take a look. :)

Peace
Reply

Thinker
08-19-2009, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Perhaps that would be the case if seeking knowledge in Islam was only so for a select few but it is in fact mandatory on every Muslim.
Indeed but does that present us with a dichotomy? One verse tells us we must seek knowledge and another tells us we must not examine, analyse or question scripture. Unless seeking knowledge means blind acceptance of what is taught and learning it by rote?

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
I don't see any confusion given that 85% are in consensus .. minor variations hardly constitute 'confusion'
You'll have to read the verse or ask if you personally don't know..
What is literal and what is allegorical – let’s take 3:7

But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.

'but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah' - Is that literal or allegorical? If it not literal on what basis does Islam say it is allegorical and how does Islam define its meaning other than what it says (literally)?
Reply

جوري
08-19-2009, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Indeed but does that present us with a dichotomy? One verse tells us we must seek knowledge and another tells us we must not examine, analyse or question scripture. Unless seeking knowledge means blind acceptance of what is taught and learning it by rote?
Seeking knowledge and accepting some issues on faith are complementary to each other ..
you tell your friend meet me @ 7:30 in front of the Waldorf.. you expect your friend to be there based on your knowledge and experience of their character.. and keep the faith that even though they are not there at 7:30 on the dot.. they are still technically within their (confidence interval).. you don't know everything 100%.. even in science some articles have to be accepted on faith.. they have terms for these in epidemiology and statistics..When you are about to start a study, and you propose your mode of study, subjects etc.. you are out to prove something, but you can't.. so you never actually accept the null hypothesis.. you have to set certain values, these values are conceived from logic but are not 100%.. you can tighten your confidence interval, you can have an excellent number for a P value, you have have a ratio of your relative risk to your standard of deviation.. but you'll still have types I and types II errors..

I can't imagine approaching any topic whether in religion or science with a linear sterile approach.. you'll get no where!


What is literal and what is allegorical – let’s take 3:7

But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.

'but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah' - Is that literal or allegorical? If it not literal on what basis does Islam say it is allegorical and how does Islam define its meaning other than what it says (literally)?

If it is something that is beyond your worldly knowledge and has to do with the here after (that is an article of faith)
These are questions one asks him/herself when they accept Islam for a religion.. We can't discuss particulars of religion when you don't even believe in God.. It is an exercise in futility ..

all the best
Reply

alcurad
08-20-2009, 09:40 PM
"but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah' - Is that literal or allegorical? If it not literal on what basis does Islam say it is allegorical and how does Islam define its meaning other than what it says (literally)?"

in a way, almost the entire qur'an is allegorical, but in degrees, i mean even the most literal interpretation is just that, an interpretation. there are a few verses that are literal though.
in the verse above it is indicated that we are forbidden from making the assertion that our interpretation is the one that grasps the entire meaning of it, but that gives no free license to play around with the text without proper understanding of the language and history etc.
Reply

Salahudeen
08-24-2009, 06:19 PM
The Qur'an didn't come for a certain people or a certain time frame, it came for all of humanity and for all of time. Allah didn't say this part of the Qur'an is only valid uptill this date, then you ignore it cos it no longer applies to you.

Instead the Qur'an applies for all of time, and as for interpreting it, well we interpret it how the Sahaaba interpreted it and what they understood that particular verse to mean. We don't interprete it according to our own mind because everyone can interpret it in various ways.

So we interpret it how the sahabba interpreted it because their teacher was the prophet pbuh and they'll have the correct understanding.
Reply

GuestFellow
08-24-2009, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

He's clearly a reformist. I'm interested to find out what his ideas are about "European Islam".

Peace
Greetings,

I do wish individuals would stop trying to create sects out of Islam. There is no such thing as ''European Islam!!!''
Reply

ieshia
08-31-2009, 02:34 AM
I believe everything in the Quran has a reason behind it and we must learn the reasoning. Everything in the quran was said for a reason and yes it is for all times. Like interest back then was Haram because people used to corrupt the concept and put people into terrible debt, but here in the U.S the interest concept is never taken advantage of and doesn't force people into debt they can't handle. Also a waiting period for a woman is said to be 3 months after her divorce before she gets married again. It is said the reason a woman must do this is because she might be pregnant. It is also said taht the woman doesn't have to wait if her ex husband didn't touch her because she obviously can not be pregnant without having intercourse with her ex husband. also a woman is excused from waiting if she has hit menopause because she can't have a child after that. Those were ways of telling if a woman is pregnant with her ex husband's baby back then but now we can find out if a woman is pregnant by conducting a few tests and even after the baby is born a simple DNA test can be taken which is never inaccurate. So it doesn't seem reasonable for a woman to have the waiting period.

These were just a couple examples of why we must know the reasoning behind what is said in the Quran. God also told us that we must move with time. That means as we progress we must embrace that rather than living in the past.
Reply

Tony
08-31-2009, 02:43 AM
SAlaam sister, I disagree that the interest system does not put ppl in situations of debt they cannot handle, after all the current economic crisis came about becuase of just that, if it was haraam back in Rasulullahs (pbuh) day, then rest assured its haraam now. Peace
Reply

ieshia
08-31-2009, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tony
SAlaam sister, I disagree that the interest system does not put ppl in situations of debt they cannot handle, after all the current economic crisis came about becuase of just that, if it was haraam back in Rasulullahs (pbuh) day, then rest assured its haraam now. Peace
I knew someone would bring that up. In this system no one is screwed because of interest the problem is because people took loans that they can not pay back. With or without interest the people would have had trouble paying back loans. If i give someone a loan without charging the person interest and that person loses his/her job and can't pay me back, then the same crises will occur.

Taking an example: Prophet muhammad said when you borrow something(animal) from someone you should return something even greater back(even healthier animal).
Reply

Tony
08-31-2009, 02:52 AM
The ppl were given loans they could not repay, the interest added to that and made even more impossible. Interest is riba and as such forbidden sister, if you think otherwise you are fooling yourself
Reply

Chuck
09-02-2009, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ieshia
Taking an example: Prophet muhammad said when you borrow something(animal) from someone you should return something even greater back(even healthier animal).
I remember opposite. Riba is not just limited to interest, here are other forms:
From Abu Sa'id and Abu Hurayrah: A man employed by the Prophet, peace be on him, in Khaybar brought for him janib [dates of very fine quality]. Upon the Prophet's asking him whether all the dates of Khaybar were such, the man replied that this was not the case and added that "they exchanged a sa [a measure] of this kind for two or three [of the other kind]". The Prophet, peace be on him, replied, "Do not do so. Sell [the lower quality dates] for dirhams and then use the dirhams to buy janib. [When dates are exchanged against dates] they should be equal in weight." (Bukhari, Kitab al-Buyu, Bab idha arada bay'a tamrin bi tamrin khayrun minhu; also Muslim and Nasa'i).

From Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet, peace be on him, said: "Deceiving a mustarsal [an unknowing entrant into the market] is riba." (Suyuti, al-Jami' al-Saghir, under the word ghabn; Kanz al-'Ummal, Kitab al Buyu, al-Bab al-thani, al-fasi al-thani, on the authority of Sunan al-Bayhaqi).

From 'Abdallah ibn Abi Awfa: The Prophet, peace be on him, said: "A najish [one who serves as an agent to bid up the price in an auction] is a cursed taker of riba." (Cited by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani in his commentary on al-Bukhari Suyuti, al-Jami al-Saghir, under the word al-najish and Kanz al-'Ummal, op. cit., both on the authority of Tabarani's al-Kabir).
Reply

ieshia
09-02-2009, 01:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
I remember opposite. Riba is not just limited to interest, here are other forms:
Here prophet Muhammad was only teaching the man to do good business. There was one exchange done for another for the two to benefit from it. No one did one a favor by giving someone dates to be generous. There was no loan of anything given out, no borrowing of any type, just an exchange. Like me giving you 50 USD for 50 Canadian dollars. That's not a fair exchange and i am losing money and that is causing me to get ripped off. So the Prophet Muhammad only told the man to be smart with business and told him how he was being taken advantage off cause even if he sells the smaller dates, the man will be making more money as oppose to exchanging 3 or 4 small dates for one better one. Then it says deceiving someone who is not knowledgeable of what is going on is RIBA. Now if i knowingly agree, where someone will give me a certain amount of money as a favor when i need it, but in return i will give that person a little bit more because i did not return the money right away. That is not being deceived. It is more beneficial for me to get that money when i need it but then in return for that favor i will slowly pay back that money and just a little tiny bit more to show my generosity and appreciation. No one tricked me into this, but i agreed to this.
Reply

Chuck
09-02-2009, 05:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ieshia
Here prophet Muhammad was only teaching the man to do good business. There was one exchange done for another for the two to benefit from it. No one did one a favor by giving someone dates to be generous. There was no loan of anything given out, no borrowing of any type, just an exchange. Like me giving you 50 USD for 50 Canadian dollars. That's not a fair exchange and i am losing money and that is causing me to get ripped off. So the Prophet Muhammad only told the man to be smart with business and told him how he was being taken advantage off cause even if he sells the smaller dates, the man will be making more money as oppose to exchanging 3 or 4 small dates for one better one. Then it says deceiving someone who is not knowledgeable of what is going on is RIBA.
Bad business practices have Riba. Thats is clear.

Now if i knowingly agree, where someone will give me a certain amount of money as a favor when i need it, but in return i will give that person a little bit more because i did not return the money right away. That is not being deceived. It is more beneficial for me to get that money when i need it but then in return for that favor i will slowly pay back that money and just a little tiny bit more to show my generosity and appreciation. No one tricked me into this, but i agreed to this.
In the first hadith person was not deceived, he willing exchanged with inferior dates. What you are doing is not investing, but putting a future liability on the person. It doesn't mean person won't agree to willing, people do things without thinking.

Lets reverse the situation here, somebody lend you the money and you will payback principle with more money as profit on top of it. You are running the risk of investing it somewhere but lender is not. What happens if market falls and you lose the money. Then you are in double loss, not just the money but also the profit you expected you failed to make. But you will incur cost regardless. This is what brought the current financial crises. Islamic investment is sharing financial risks rather than putting it solely on one party.

To control this Prophet (pbuh) forbade the following:
'Ahmad and 'Ibn Majah narrated on the authority of 'Abu Said Al Khudriy (mAbpwh): The Prophet (pbuh) has forbidden the purchase of the unborn animal in its mother's womb, the sale of the milk in the udder without measurement, the purchase of spoils of war prior to their distribution, the purchase of charities prior to their receipt, and the purchase of the catch of a diver.
Reply

syilla
09-02-2009, 05:49 AM
Riba (Usury): Today?s Practical Form and the Reasons Behind its Prohibition?


It is well known that the main difference between Islamic Bank and Conventional Bank is the existence of Riba. Therefore, this writing will briefly discuss on Riba and the stand of Islamic banks on this issue.

Among the frequently asked questions regarding Riba are:
• What exactly is Riba in the current practices of the Banks and why is it prohibited in Islam?
• What is meant by the coercion and duress resulting from Riba? Practically, nobody in this matter would feel the coercion, indeed the customer would be benefiting from the interest charged.
• How would a bank gain profit without Riba(usury)? Consequently, how would a Bank attract customers without profit?

This writing will try to respond to all the questions raised.

Firstly, one must have in mind that Allah, the Most Merciful, has stated clearly in the Quran:
“ Those who swallow usury cannot rise up save as he ariseth whom the devil hath prostrated by (his) touch. That is because they say : Trade is just like usury; whereas Allah permittteth trading and forbiddeth usury” ( Al-Baqarah : 275 )
According to the Shari’ah, Riba can occur in the following situations:

a) The First Riba
The first is when there is a loan contract between two parties (bank and borrower). For example, in today’s Banking practice: Bank A approves a loan of RM 50,000 to customer B, but the bank fixes the interest rate e.g 10 per cent a year, thus enabling the customer to have the required amount of money in his possession. However, one must realize that the amount accrued from the interest might be compounded to an unknown amount e.g. in the event where the customer is in default.

The practice is regularly done using products such as Car Loan, Home Loan, Personal Loan, Term Loan and etc. That is what we called as Riba. This kind of Riba is categorized under both Riba al-Fadl (interest in excess) and Riba an-Nasiah (increases due to time), which according to Shari’ah is prohibited.

The next question then will be; why is it prohibited? What is wrong on charging interest on the customer’s loan?

The answer is that:

• Revenue resulting from the interest is actually received as a result of exploiting the difficulty faced by the customer i.e. only a dire need person would go to a bank to get a loan in order to settle his/her financial problems. Unfortunately, the bank on the other hand is charging an additional amount of payment (interest) for the loan. This is why Riba leads to injustice and duress on the customer part. In addition, in the case of failure to settle the monthly payments as fixed by the bank, the customer would then be imposed a penalty, which is compounded.

Whereas, In Islamic Banks practice, the Banks sell the goods to the customer at a fixed selling price and it cannot be higher than what has been fixed. If there is a default in the payment, he/she is only been charged a compensation, which is very small just enough to cover the administration’s cost. If any excess occurs it will be distributed away as a charity.

Thus, readers should be able to differentiate between compensation imposed by Islamic Banks with the penalty imposed by Conventional Banks.

• Charging interest will diminish a man’s good conduct or discourage him from lending a hand to others in society. At the same time it encourages selfishness, egoism in the rich and a trait built on putting pressure on the poor, needy and those in difficulty. It actually eliminates good characteristics in people such as willingness to helping each other. Moreover, it will create ill feelings among people and lead to tension in community.

Riba will also encourage laziness in the rich or inefficiency in the bank its employees will not have to work hard to gain profit through trade and take risk. Consequently, they will start finding easier way to gain profit i.e. by giving loan and charging interest on the loan. In a riba-based economy the possessors of capital will not only remain permanently rich, since they eliminate the possibility of suffering losses, but they will grow constantly richer, since they will be sucking the wealth which belongs to others.
Islam on the other hand prohibits profit-gaining activities, which are independent of any labor or effort, or the assumption of any risk. Islam deliberately accepts the other way, which is: “ Al-Kharaj Bid Dhaman” meaning “Profit is by taking risks”. Allah, the Most High, has unambiguously declared that nothing can be had without effort or labor (6:85, 11:85, 26:183, etc.).

• The only discipline approved by the Shari’ah in loan contract is giving loan without imposing any additional amount on the repayment. This is inline with what stated in the Hadith: “Every loan given which leads to a benefit on the lender part is Riba”. In conclusion, no profit can be generated through the loan contract for the benefit of the lender. This is because loan is a process of helping each other voluntarily and in Islam; it is regarded as Qardh Hassan (Benevolent Loan).

b) The Second Riba
The second form of Riba (usury) occurs when customer deposits their money in any type of conventional accounts, such as: -

1) Conventional Fixed Deposit account.
According to the signed agreement, the account operator/Bank will pool the depositors’ money and invest in strong, well-established companies to gain profit.

Consequently, as a reward to the depositor, the Bank will fix an upfront interest rate (fixed interest). For example, 3% interest will be given to the depositor (as an addition to his/ her capital money) at a maturity period say between 1-12 months. According to Shariah, the 3% rate from the fixed deposit account is Riba Al-Qard, meaning Riba out of lending and borrowing. This kind of riba is the extra amount of money over and above the principal of the loan either imposed by the lender on the borrower in the contract or promised by the borrower in the contract.

2) Conventional Saving account.
By the same token, for this type of account, the Bank usually gives a fixed interest rate ranging from 0.1% to 1.5% per annum or higher. For this type of account, the Bank is regarded as borrowing the money from the depositor for the purpose of engaging in investments or providing loans. The depositor on the other hand, is regarded as imposing the fixed interest on the Bank. As a result, the Bank is required to pay an additional sum based on the interest rate regardless of condition (profit or loss). If the Bank gains high profit, it only has to pay the small fixed interest to the depositors. In contrast, if the Bank suffers a loss, it will still have to pay the fixed interest regardless of the loss. Thus, iniquity and injustice occurs, when the Bank has to pay the interest despite it being in a loss position or when the depositor receives a small income versus the Bank’s high profit.

In an Islamic account, customers may deposit their money in either one of the following two types of accounts: -

a) Wadi’ah Yad Dhamanah (Savings Account-i )
Wadi’ah Yad Dhamanah is when the Bank pools and utilizes the fund. The bank’s responsibility is in the form of guarantee and therefore it is compulsory for the Bank to return the fund as and when requested by the customer.

The Bank may give Hibah (gift/reward) to the depositor. The Hibah depends solely on the Bank’s discretion and cannot be promised by the Bank.
In favor of the Bank’s high investment or financing projects profit, the depositor will usually receive a good/ high hibah (gift/reward) appropriate to the profit. On the contrary, in the event of loss, the Bank need not give any hibah (gift) to customers. Furthermore, the depositors’ money is still in custody and will not be reduced even though there is a loss. Therefore, justice prevails for both bank and customer because: -
• Customers may enjoy hibah (gift/reward), which is given by the Bank for their money in safe custody whilst not having to bear any investment risk.
• The rate or amount of hibah solely depends on the Bank’s discretion and the Bank usually gives away competitive hibah for profitable investment in order to attract customers.
• The Bank is not obliged to pay anything to the customers if there is no profit from investment. Therefore, the Bank will not be in a disadvantage position.
• There is no Riba involved in this account and the investment is Shariah compliant.

b) Wadi’ah with the concept of Mudharabah. (Investment account)
Means that customer desires to have their money in safe custody and at the same time also invest. Under this concept, customers are willing to bear the risk arising from the investments in order to gain higher profit. The percentage rate of the profit is determined in the first place, in the contract e.g. 70% for customer and 30% for the Bank or 80:20, 60:40 and etc.

Hence, in an Islamic account, what is imperative is that the accumulated deposit will only be invested in companies, which are Shariah compliant (Shariah approved companies with business activities which are in compliance with Shariah principles and all income generated are free from doubtful sources).

For instance, RHB Islamic Bank Berhad ensures that all the deposit received is invested in businesses or companies, which are clearly safe (free from unlawful activities in Islam).

Screening is carried out diligently, and its operation is done in a client-friendly environment, i.e. a very much transparent discussion takes place between the Bank and companies, which are targeted to be invested in to ensure that the companies are Shariah compliant. The discussion will take into consideration the assets and liabilities of the companies in which the deposits/funds will be invested, regardless whether it is public listed or not.

Generally, the following Shariah filter is used:-
i- Industry filtering (excludes companies whose primary business is related to prohibited products and goods)
ii- Primary Financial Filters (excludes companies having unacceptable levels of debts or impure interest income according to Shariah Committee guidelines)

In conclusion, the Islamic accounts differ from conventional accounts which are not confine to the Shariah laws and principles and only focusing on profit generating investments without considering the Shariah aspects. Obviously, this will mean that one depositing money into the Islamic accounts as supporters of the Islamic banking system and sponsors of Shariah compliant activities and profit generation.

As regards to the issue on how Islamic banks can gain profit without Riba (Usury), there are actually various permissible ways for generating profit in an Islamic Bank as well as the Islamic windows which are very much reliable and capable of income generation, and gaining high profit through the following Shariah approved selling and buying modes, such as:
a. Bai Bithaman Ajil (BBA) – Deferred Installment Sale
b. Normal Ijarah (Leasing), Ijarah Muntahiyah Bit Tamleek (Ending with ownership) and AITAB (Islamic Hire Purchase)
c. Musyarakah (Joint-venture Profit Sharing) and Musyarakah Mutanaqisah (Diminishing Musyarakah)
d. Mudharabah (Trustee Profit Sharing)
e. Murabahah (Cost plus sale) and Three party Murabahah
f. Syndication services (Ujr)

Based on these varieties of Islamic selling and buying modes (there are a lot more), one should not have any doubt on the Islamic Banks’ capability in generating profit as well as benefiting societies for their financial needs.
takken from zaharuddin.net
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 46
    Last Post: 11-26-2014, 10:48 PM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-19-2012, 12:19 PM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-25-2012, 05:54 AM
  4. Replies: 23
    Last Post: 09-29-2007, 11:32 AM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!