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TiLK
08-20-2009, 10:24 PM
Hello.

As you may know, sharia prohibits riba and one if its examples are interests that are providid by majority of nonislamic banks. In many countries there is no bank that offers account without interest. the same applies about saving accounts, life insurances and different other products of finantial market. Apart of it there are investing products where you can put your money and the company makes them grow by investing then.

Do you know about any complex guide about how muslim should behave in western finantial system? Which banks/insurances/savings he can use without commiting harram and whan he should do in general with his money, when he is living in country that absent islamic finantial institutions.

Thanks
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happynur
08-21-2009, 10:11 AM
i treat bank only like a deposit box.
the amount of money that i've saved in the bank, i call it green money
interest, i call it, red money.

i only take my green money, every time i need money dan leave the red one... :)
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TiLK
08-21-2009, 10:59 AM
What about health and life insurances? Do you pay for them? For instance life insurance - saving that is given to your family in case you die - these money are growing and used for investment. Speaking of which - bank use your money as well - its not like they are lying on the account and waiting for you - they are making interest for the bank. I am not very into economics, so maybe I am wrong, but from how I understand it - secular bank can use your money in whatever way it things its good and profitable, though Islam does consider it as a haram (i.e. supporting pork companies, alcohol companies etc.)
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aamirsaab
08-21-2009, 11:01 AM
:sl:
Your best bet would be to join with an islamic bank (like the Islamic bank of britain). Alternatively, you could just stick with your current bank and opt out of those insurance schemes...
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S_87
08-21-2009, 11:11 AM
im in a uk bank and its non islamic and yeh they offer interest but i requested no interest put into my account and so they dont...its a normal account and everything, just with no interest. this can be done in the mainstream banks in uk, barclays, llyods, hsbc etc..just request it
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TiLK
08-21-2009, 11:22 AM
What about mortgage? Its haram as well, since you pay interest to the bank. But I heart there are islamic banks offering alternative solution for mortgages - dont you know if there are some islamic banks offering those services worldwide?
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TiLK
08-21-2009, 11:29 AM
I have one extra question:

Lets say I have a house and I offer it for renting for a monthly fee and this fee is higher than are my house monthly costs (so I am earning extra money with renting). Is this considered to be riba?

I know more people, including muslims - who own buildings/houses which they dont use but rent for some money per month. Is this haram?

If its riba, than is it also riba when I am living in a rented flat and this rent is higher than house costs of the owner? Am I commiting haram with paying this rent?
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h.shillingford
08-22-2009, 07:38 AM
There is nothing wrong with renting a house out for more money than it costs. This is business, not riba. It is just like buying a sack of dates in the market place for one pound, then selling it for two. You are making a living.

Riba would be if you were selling the dates for two pounds, but your customer didn't have the money on him, so you said he could take the dates but had to pay an extra pound for every day he did not bring the money for them. So a bag of dates that you valued at two pounds will now cost the customer nine pounds if he brought the money to you a week later.
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zakirs
08-22-2009, 07:51 AM
What about health and life insurances? Do you pay for them? For instance life insurance - saving that is given to your family in case you die - these money are growing and used for investment. Speaking of which - bank use your money as well - its not like they are lying on the account and waiting for you - they are making interest for the ba

Islam doesn't forbid profit.You can invest your money in a good company and get the dividends back , its halal.But the problem with bank's interest is it comes from the money earned through loans.In islam giving loans on interest is haram.So the interest in banks is haram.Rather you could invest your money in a good company and it will give you profits.You are effectively doing buisiness .where as in interest system you are eating other's money gained from interest based loan systems.


“Those who devour usury will not stand except as stands one whom the evil one by his touch hath driven to madness. That is because they say: ‘Trade is like usury.’ But Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge). But those who repeat (the offence) are companions of the fire, they will abide therein (forever)” (2:275)
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zakirs
08-22-2009, 07:53 AM
My friend uses hi bank account normally and yearly he gives away the interest to poor. Thats an awesome idea ! aint it ?
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TiLK
08-23-2009, 06:44 PM
Thanks guys. These were really useful answers. So I see riba is meant explicitely borrowing money and get back more money. Since renting house is also borrowing house and get back more money, but riba is only when its money for money. I must check the producs of finantial market (those investing companies I mentioned before) in my country and maybe there are some where you can put money and get back more money and it will be halal cause of investing and not borrowing (so you can also lose money, if investition is bad,but this is another story). If I find out sth new about this, I post it here.

format_quote Originally Posted by zakirs
My friend uses hi bank account normally and yearly he gives away the interest to poor. Thats an awesome idea ! aint it ?
One scholar (or whoever he was on one website) recommanded the same. Others say we should leave interest to bank. I think accepting of interest is haram in any case - even if you give it to poor people. Riba is always riba. So I think its better not to have riba at all. But if you already have it for some reason, yeah - give it to poor is best solution I guess.



Borrowing or lending money with interest is riba. I wonder now, are riba also bonuses? For example, in my country there is one product - its called house saving. To put it simple you are saving money for 6 years at least and than you recieve bonus 22% to this money from government. It is not interest money, it is money from government to support savings of people who want to build house or buy flat (so you are not allowed to use this money to anything but housing). Its extra money - you didnt earn them by yourself. But its not interest in same time. Do you think this is riba or not?
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zakirs
08-23-2009, 06:58 PM
Borrowing or lending money with interest is riba. I wonder now, are riba also bonuses? For example, in my country there is one product - its called house saving. To put it simple you are saving money for 6 years at least and than you recieve bonus 22% to this money from government. It is not interest money, it is money from government to support savings of people who want to build house or buy flat (so you are not allowed to use this money to anything but housing). Its extra money - you didnt earn them by yourself. But its not interest in same time. Do you think this is riba or not?

If the rest of the money is being paid by govt i assume it doesnt come under riba because somebody is giving you the money.Any body to clarify on this ?
Reply

TiLK
08-24-2009, 11:03 AM
Hello.

So this is how some investing companies work. You give your money to them. They do not lend them to anyone but they buy government bonds with your money. As they value of gov bonds grow, your money grow too and if gov bonds are losing its value (just like it happened during crisis), you are losing money. Do you think this is riba?
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TiLK
08-24-2009, 11:05 AM
Interesting artible about riba-free banking
http://www.islamicbanking.nl/article3.html#_Toc3941832
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mundo
09-20-2009, 12:07 PM
Regarding riba

Firstly islamic rules are principle based and not black and white rules. So the situation must be analysed in order for one to make a decision.

Devouring interest
Notice wherever the quran mentions riba it refers to DEVOURING interest.

And for their taking riba even though it was forbidden for them, and their wrongful appropriation of other peoples’ property, We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment. (4:161).

O believers, take not doubled and redoubled riba, and fear God so that you may prosper. Fear the fire which has been prepared for those who reject faith, and obey God and the Prophet so that you may receive mercy [3:130-2].

Those who benefit from riba shall be raised like those who have been driven to madness by the touch of the Devil; this is because they say: “Trade is like riba” while God has permitted trade and forbidden riba. Hence those who have received the admonition from their Lord and desist, may have what has already passed, their case being entrusted to God; but those who revert shall be the inhabitants of the fire and abide therein for ever. [2:275]

O believers, fear God, and give up the riba that remains outstanding if you are believers. If you do
not do so, then be sure of being at war with God and His Messenger. But, if you repent, you can have your principal. Neither should you commit injustice nor should you be subjected to it. (2: 278 - 279).

There is one verse however in Surah Rum

That which you give as riba to increase the peoples’ wealth increases not with God; but that which you give in charity, seeking the goodwill of God, multiplies manifold. (30:39).

If you read different tafsir this is meant if you give as a gift and expect the person to pay you back capital + interest.

See - http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=30&tid=40413

The hadith where the Prophet SAW saw punishments are also for those who DEVOUR interest

Yes there is a hadith that the one who pays interest and receives interest are the same. And both payer and receiver of interest are cursed.

However, there is a slight distinction between devouring and paying. This is probably the reason why Imam Abu Hanifa RA said there is no for muslim in dar-ul-Harb.


Consider the Ayat

إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةَ وَالْدَّمَ وَلَحْمَ الْخَنْزِيرِ وَمَآ أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ غَيْرَ بَاغٍ وَلاَ عَادٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
He has only forbidden dead flesh, blood, the flesh of swine, and any animal which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for other than Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing, then, Allah is Pardoning, Most Merciful [An-Nahl 16:115].

Note the principle is noted that if under necessity Allah will forgive the sins.
It does not say that haraam will become Halaal, instead haraam will always be haraam. However, Allah has revealed that he will forgive sins if the condition is met.

Necessities of this day and age: Student loan

Student loan, as mentioned earlier is a necessity if one needs education. Otherwise majority of muslims in the west generations after generations would live to be taxi drivers or lower class admin workers and none would be in a prominent position or place of authority.

Education is fard and also it is stressed that muslims know about the latest technologies and are not lagging behind.

If someone, if my child had the flare or ambition to persue a subject would I force him to be a taxi driver or corporate slave just because I am not able to afford university? I may look for zakat or sadaqah first but if nothing works then you do not have a choice but to take out a loan.

Buying a house
With regards to house, it is the mans obligation (Fard) to provide security and financial security to his family. He must provide both.

Living under rent has a big problem, which is if a man losses his job or source of income he will be forced to leave his house and live in an estate.

Now imagine having 2 little kids and (Allah forbid) man gets terminally ill, disabled, involved in an accident, where would your kids go. Would you condemn them to live in a council estate for the rest of their lives. Allah would question you as to why you did not make them pious and educated.

If none of the above on retirement when you are not able to work who is going to pay the rent. If the kids are gonna be taxi drivers they will hardly be able to afford a place for both of you.

Don't think you can rely on your pension either, as all pensions are sourced from a mixture of fixed interest securities, bonds and equities. (In terms of equity there is not distinction between halaal and haraam business). As mentioned above devouring interest is forbidden. Declaring war on Allah and his Prophet SAW. So pension is a no.

Where will you go. Is it not better to take a mortgage out and pay 700 towards interest and capital over 20 years rather then 700 pounds a month towards rent? At least then you will have a place to yourself.

Conclusion
This is my research on the subject. I am no aalim or mufti but a student of Islam.

I do not say interest, paying or receiving, is halaal they are both haraam. But for necessity, to take your first step to get yourself financially secure i.e. an education, a house, a business, that is a mans need and can not be avoided to fulfil his obligation. Taking out a loan knowing it to be wrong is fisq a sin. However, taking a loan to get an education or house may in the long term prove constructive to the muslims whereas not taking a loan and living like 3rd class citizens would be destructive.
Not taking out loans may prove to be much more disastrous to the community as well as your offspring.

You can not change the system unless you know about it and unless you are in a position of authority. We can not just sit back and live like 3rd class citizens. Once you are set up and secure we can think of ways to eradicate this disease altogether.

I would recommend everyone to read The late Mufti Muhamed Shafi RA work on this. It very informative and a real eye opener on today's economic system.

Starts here from page 28 onward
http://www.islamibayanaat.com/MQ/Eng...ge-638-688.pdf


Continues here until page 20.
http://www.islamibayanaat.com/MQ/Eng...ge-689-741.pdf

Hope this helps
Reply

kawaiigardiner
09-21-2009, 02:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mundo
Regarding riba

Firstly islamic rules are principle based and not black and white rules. So the situation must be analysed in order for one to make a decision.

Devouring interest
Notice wherever the quran mentions riba it refers to DEVOURING interest.

And for their taking riba even though it was forbidden for them, and their wrongful appropriation of other peoples’ property, We have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment. (4:161).

O believers, take not doubled and redoubled riba, and fear God so that you may prosper. Fear the fire which has been prepared for those who reject faith, and obey God and the Prophet so that you may receive mercy [3:130-2].

Those who benefit from riba shall be raised like those who have been driven to madness by the touch of the Devil; this is because they say: “Trade is like riba” while God has permitted trade and forbidden riba. Hence those who have received the admonition from their Lord and desist, may have what has already passed, their case being entrusted to God; but those who revert shall be the inhabitants of the fire and abide therein for ever. [2:275]

O believers, fear God, and give up the riba that remains outstanding if you are believers. If you do
not do so, then be sure of being at war with God and His Messenger. But, if you repent, you can have your principal. Neither should you commit injustice nor should you be subjected to it. (2: 278 - 279).

There is one verse however in Surah Rum

That which you give as riba to increase the peoples’ wealth increases not with God; but that which you give in charity, seeking the goodwill of God, multiplies manifold. (30:39).

If you read different tafsir this is meant if you give as a gift and expect the person to pay you back capital + interest.

See - http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=30&tid=40413

The hadith where the Prophet SAW saw punishments are also for those who DEVOUR interest

Yes there is a hadith that the one who pays interest and receives interest are the same. And both payer and receiver of interest are cursed.

However, there is a slight distinction between devouring and paying. This is probably the reason why Imam Abu Hanifa RA said there is no for muslim in dar-ul-Harb.


Consider the Ayat

إِنَّمَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةَ وَالْدَّمَ وَلَحْمَ الْخَنْزِيرِ وَمَآ أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ غَيْرَ بَاغٍ وَلاَ عَادٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
He has only forbidden dead flesh, blood, the flesh of swine, and any animal which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for other than Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing, then, Allah is Pardoning, Most Merciful [An-Nahl 16:115].

Note the principle is noted that if under necessity Allah will forgive the sins.
It does not say that haraam will become Halaal, instead haraam will always be haraam. However, Allah has revealed that he will forgive sins if the condition is met.

Necessities of this day and age: Student loan

Student loan, as mentioned earlier is a necessity if one needs education. Otherwise majority of muslims in the west generations after generations would live to be taxi drivers or lower class admin workers and none would be in a prominent position or place of authority.

Education is fard and also it is stressed that muslims know about the latest technologies and are not lagging behind.

If someone, if my child had the flare or ambition to persue a subject would I force him to be a taxi driver or corporate slave just because I am not able to afford university? I may look for zakat or sadaqah first but if nothing works then you do not have a choice but to take out a loan.

Buying a house
With regards to house, it is the mans obligation (Fard) to provide security and financial security to his family. He must provide both.

Living under rent has a big problem, which is if a man losses his job or source of income he will be forced to leave his house and live in an estate.

Now imagine having 2 little kids and (Allah forbid) man gets terminally ill, disabled, involved in an accident, where would your kids go. Would you condemn them to live in a council estate for the rest of their lives. Allah would question you as to why you did not make them pious and educated.

If none of the above on retirement when you are not able to work who is going to pay the rent. If the kids are gonna be taxi drivers they will hardly be able to afford a place for both of you.

Don't think you can rely on your pension either, as all pensions are sourced from a mixture of fixed interest securities, bonds and equities. (In terms of equity there is not distinction between halaal and haraam business). As mentioned above devouring interest is forbidden. Declaring war on Allah and his Prophet SAW. So pension is a no.

Where will you go. Is it not better to take a mortgage out and pay 700 towards interest and capital over 20 years rather then 700 pounds a month towards rent? At least then you will have a place to yourself.

Conclusion
This is my research on the subject. I am no aalim or mufti but a student of Islam.

I do not say interest, paying or receiving, is halaal they are both haraam. But for necessity, to take your first step to get yourself financially secure i.e. an education, a house, a business, that is a mans need and can not be avoided to fulfil his obligation. Taking out a loan knowing it to be wrong is fisq a sin. However, taking a loan to get an education or house may in the long term prove constructive to the muslims whereas not taking a loan and living like 3rd class citizens would be destructive.
Not taking out loans may prove to be much more disastrous to the community as well as your offspring.

You can not change the system unless you know about it and unless you are in a position of authority. We can not just sit back and live like 3rd class citizens. Once you are set up and secure we can think of ways to eradicate this disease altogether.

I would recommend everyone to read The late Mufti Muhamed Shafi RA work on this. It very informative and a real eye opener on today's economic system.

Starts here from page 28 onward
http://www.islamibayanaat.com/MQ/Eng...ge-638-688.pdf


Continues here until page 20.
http://www.islamibayanaat.com/MQ/Eng...ge-689-741.pdf

Hope this helps
Just to be devils advocate, if you're in New Zealand the student loan is 100% interest free :statisfie
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zakirs
09-21-2009, 03:52 PM
Interesting to read about students loan.. i am planning to take one soon .. what do you think brother ? what should i do ?
Reply

kawaiigardiner
09-21-2009, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zakirs
Interesting to read about students loan.. i am planning to take one soon .. what do you think brother ? what should i do ?
Not too sure - I am confused about the issue of Riba within Islam having seen the justification regarding Usury within Christianity and Judaism; specifically that if one doesn't charge interest then the value would decline by way of inflation and the opportunity cost associated with loaning it to you versus investing it in a business.
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