/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Stumbling block: evolution, Adam and Eve, age of earth



Rabi Mansur
08-25-2009, 10:08 PM
:sl:
I have been studying various religions since losing faith in the religion in which I was raised (mormonism). At this point I don't believe in any thing. Nothing has persuaded me yet. But I have felt drawn to Islam and have studied a little Arabic and am now reading the Quran.

My big stumbling block to reverting to Islam is that science appears to be diametrically opposed to Islam as well as most other religions. Does Islam allow for a belief in evolution? My reading of the Quran so far leads me to believe that it teaches similar to the Genesis account of the origins of man, i.e., Adam and Eve, garden of Eden, etc. That would mean the earth is only about 6000 years old, no evolution of man, we didn't come out of Africa as shown by evidence of DNA, anthropology, etc.

Can I reconcile scientific evidence with Quran? Or does Islam take the same position on the origins of man as fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Jews?
شكرا
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
czgibson
08-25-2009, 10:38 PM
Greetings,

Here's an article about the Islamic perspective on Evolution:

.

During the Middle Ages Muslims were leading the world in scientific discovery.

See here.

Peace
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-26-2009, 02:45 AM
Those links help but, don't totally answer it for me. At least Islam doesn't seem to take the position that the fundamentalist Christians take.
Reply

mahfuja
08-26-2009, 02:52 AM
a good article I came across

Dear all, I wish to discuss the theory of evolution in particular speciation...

Whilst studying evolution during my BSc in Molecular genetics and now in my Masters, I noticed that the entire field of speciation is based on the following assumption- that is similarity implies homology (common ancestry).

By this I mean, say if we take 3 DNA sequences from different species and we compared their similarity, we notice that evolutionists with say because sequence X and Y are more similar than sequence Z that means sequence X is more related to Y then Z. This would then be done for many other sequences and pave the generation of a phylogenic tree.

Whole genomes from various species are then compared to each other and the organisms sharing the highest proportion of sequence identity especially in the protein coding regions are considered to be closely related. So say a human and a monkey share in excess of 96% DNA, thus the evolutionists would conclude that Humans and monkeys shared a common ancestor. The Human being also shares a considerable amount of DNA with yeast but not as much as with monkeys so another conclusion would be that Humans are also related to yeast but the common ancestor is more ancient than that between the Human and monkey. The evolutionists then argue that since all species share some DNA sequences in the protein coding regions, this means all life forms were descended from each other eventually back to a single cellular – perhaps RNA based life form.

Before I go on to explain why in my opinion there lies an unproven assumption in this argument, I would like to shift to the fossil records and apply the same argument. The Darwinist would say if we compare the bone structure of various organisms we can see similarity. The fossils of Humans are similar to that of modern day apes, more similar in fact then to horses, thus Humans are more closely related to apes than horses…but they are also related to horses just not as closely as to apes. In essence the fossil argument is just more primitive then the genetics argument…but both lead to the same overall conclusion that similarity implies homology.

The problem I have with this argument is that 2 similar structures need not have a common ancestor. The fact that most organisms contain a particular protein does not imply that these organisms are related because an alternative conclusion is that this protein is absolutely essential for life such as the cytochrome C protein and thus most organisms had to have that protein to survive. Also, birds will have more related genes than to land based animals for example, simply because they need certain genes for wing patterning and development. The fact that apes and Humans share 96% or even 99% or even 100% does not mean we have arisen from a common ancestor because we share a similar environment. Likewise, the different species of fish have more closely related genes to each other than to Humans, because they share a similar water based environment.

So what I am trying to say is; a similar sequence or bone structure need not imply a common ancestor BUT A COMMON ENVIRONMENT.

So how could these sequences have arisen? To answer this we need to consider the possibilities of why 2 similar sequences could have arisen. All these possibilities are can never be (empirically) proven:

1) Similar sequences implies that they have arisen due to a common ancestor
2) Similar sequences imply a common environment and one creator – a supreme being.

Thus, both evolutionists and theists are relying on an assumption that cannot be proven because either one of the conclusions can be derived from the fact that sequences or structures are similar.

And finally just in case someone is still not convinced that the first possibility is unproven then consider this scenario; if I gave you a pencil, and 2 different types of pens, and I asked you to form a conclusion on the origins of these objects. The evolutionist will say that the objects share a common ancestor with the pens being more closely related to each other than to the pencil. The theists will argue that the objects share similarity because they are needed for the same function – writing.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Ramadhan
08-26-2009, 03:33 AM
I like the argument against evolution in the above post :thumbs_up
Reply

Ramadhan
08-26-2009, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
:sl:
My reading of the Quran so far leads me to believe that it teaches similar to the Genesis account of the origins of man, i.e., Adam and Eve, garden of Eden, etc. That would mean the earth is only about 6000 years old, no evolution of man, we didn't come out of Africa as shown by evidence of DNA, anthropology, etc.

Can I reconcile scientific evidence with Quran? Or does Islam take the same position on the origins of man as fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Jews?
شكرا
the Qur'an definitely does not say that the earth is only 6,000 years
In fact, the stories of the creation of the universe in the Qur'an do not contradict latest scientific discoveries.
all you have to do is browse and search these forums to read explanations about science content of the Qur'an.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
08-26-2009, 05:51 AM
I personally don't see the point in debating about Adam and evolution. Adam's special creation was a miracle of Allah. However Allah did it is His choice. As a miracle it doesn't need to conform to regular universal laws.

We don't debate about how Moses turned his staff of wood (made of dead wood) into a living breathing snake. We don't debate about how Jesus resurrected a clinically dead man. Yet here we are trying to analyze Adam's birth.

Let's move on.
Reply

Hamayun
08-26-2009, 09:41 AM
As per my previous post in your other thread, Quran does not mention the earth being only 6000 years old.

Also Islam is compatible with evolution, however, Islam does not support the theory that we evolved from primates. Evolution/adaptation can happen and it does not contradict Islam at all.

I am sure a more knowledgeable Brother or Sister will elaborate on it.

Hope that helps.

Salam :)
Reply

Eric H
08-26-2009, 10:59 AM
Greetings and peace be with you rabimansur; welcome to the forum.

Those links help but, don't totally answer it for me. At least Islam doesn't seem to take the position that the fundamentalist Christians take.
The links are about as good as you are going to get, and they lack the proof you are looking for. As to creation, God created each one of us as a kind, he did not create apes that evolved into humans through natural selection.

Again there is NO absolute proof for me to say this, I just have to accept it and take it on trust, we call it faith. My Muslim and Christian brothers and sisters are stuck in the same boat, somehow the same God hears all our prayers.

If you are searching for God, you have to do something, and it means changing yourself in some way.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
Reply

Woodrow
08-26-2009, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you rabimansur; welcome to the forum.



The links are about as good as you are going to get, and they lack the proof you are looking for. As to creation, God created each one of us as a kind, he did not create apes that evolved into humans through natural selection.

Again there is NO absolute proof for me to say this, I just have to accept it and take it on trust, we call it faith. My Muslim and Christian brothers and sisters are stuck in the same boat, somehow the same God hears all our prayers.

If you are searching for God, you have to do something, and it means changing yourself in some way.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
Peace Eric,

I would like to add.

To find God(swt) a person needs to understand how to look for Him and what to recognize as being Him. To some people this seems to come natural, to others it takes much study and understanding. Some people will be able to see the work of God(swt) in a speck of dust, others will not recognize his work if they saw him build a planet personally for them.

Evolution if properly understood is an excellent example of Allaah(swt)'s handiwork. to see the beauty and mechanics of what evolution actually is, should make it impossible for a believer of evolution to deny the existence of a Creator.

I am speaking of what evolution is (adaptation) and not what some of us believers think it is ( a form of creation). Evolution is how living creatures adapt, not how they were created.
Reply

Azy
08-26-2009, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mahfuja
Whilst studying evolution during my BSc in Molecular genetics and now in my Masters, I noticed that the entire field of speciation is based on the following assumption- that is similarity implies homology (common ancestry).
It is simply not the case that the biological sciences think that similarities imply homology, similarities could represent homology or analogy.
format_quote Originally Posted by mahfuja
All these possibilities are can never be (empirically) proven:
Except they have been, see [here] for evidences based on homology and analogy.

You are right that the supreme being can never be proven though :)
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-26-2009, 09:41 PM
I'm willing to believe in a supreme being. I realize we really can't prove that. But I'm looking for some solid evidence that Islam is the way. Or some other religion is the correct way to worship. So far, science seems to trump religion. You have to realize my background, I believed with all my heart in God and the mormon religion. Now that it has been proven false by a mountain of evidence I'm looking for the best way to worship God and so far have not found a home. I'm still leery of all religion in light of my experience with the lies of mormonism. It just seems to me that if Islam were true there would be proof in the Quran of evolution and other scientific findings. When I read it it just seems like a continuation of the worldview of the Bible. Very outdated.
Reply

Hamayun
08-26-2009, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
I'm willing to believe in a supreme being. I realize we really can't prove that. But I'm looking for some solid evidence that Islam is the way. Or some other religion is the correct way to worship. So far, science seems to trump religion. You have to realize my background, I believed with all my heart in God and the mormon religion. Now that it has been proven false by a mountain of evidence I'm looking for the best way to worship God and so far have not found a home. I'm still leery of all religion in light of my experience with the lies of mormonism. It just seems to me that if Islam were true there would be proof in the Quran of evolution and other scientific findings. When I read it it just seems like a continuation of the worldview of the Bible. Very outdated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg5aVgwN_2E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fl0HU0ox3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO1h6iGMqFA


http://www.miraclesof*************/s...fic_index.html You could attribute a couple of these to co-incidence but when there are so many it makes you wonder...


A Scientist's Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur'an

Keith L. Moore, Ph.D., F.I.A.C.
The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada.
Address all correspondence to:
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D, F.I.A.C., Professor of Anatomy and Associate Dean Basic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario M55 IAB, Canada

Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an. It is only recently that the scientific meaning of some of these verses has been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these verses correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.
Interest in explanations of the verses of the Qur'an is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sorts of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers form the basis of the Hadith literature.
The translations(*) of the verses from the Qur'an which are interpreted in this paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, a Professor of Islamic Studies in King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness." This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.
After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).
"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.

Figure 1. Drawing of a sagittal section of a female's abdomen and pelvis showing a fetus in utero. The "veils of darkness" are: (1) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall, and (3) the amniochorionic membrane.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest." This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop"). "Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure." This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

Figure 2. Top, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker.
Below, a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.

Figure 3. Left, a plasticine model of the human embryo which has the appearance of chewed flesh.
Right, a drawing of a 28 day-old human embryo showing several bead-like somites which resemble the teeth marks in the model shown to the left.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump." This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae. "Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm. "Then We developed out of it another creature." This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers. "And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding." This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last. "Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed." This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones. "And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term." This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl. The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.
Reply

czgibson
08-26-2009, 10:42 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
I'm willing to believe in a supreme being. I realize we really can't prove that. But I'm looking for some solid evidence that Islam is the way. Or some other religion is the correct way to worship. So far, science seems to trump religion. You have to realize my background, I believed with all my heart in God and the mormon religion. Now that it has been proven false by a mountain of evidence I'm looking for the best way to worship God and so far have not found a home.
Who says you have to adhere to a particular religion? If I believed in god I think I would rather worship him in my own way.

It just seems to me that if Islam were true there would be proof in the Quran of evolution and other scientific findings. When I read it it just seems like a continuation of the worldview of the Bible. Very outdated.
Being a 7th century document, it certainly is very outdated. That doesn't mean it's not worth reading, though - Homer, Aristotle and Plato are outdated too.

I hope you find answers that bring you peace.

Peace
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-26-2009, 10:45 PM
Very interesting.

شكرا
Reply

Woodrow
08-27-2009, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
I'm willing to believe in a supreme being. I realize we really can't prove that. But I'm looking for some solid evidence that Islam is the way. Or some other religion is the correct way to worship. So far, science seems to trump religion. You have to realize my background, I believed with all my heart in God and the mormon religion. Now that it has been proven false by a mountain of evidence I'm looking for the best way to worship God and so far have not found a home. I'm still leery of all religion in light of my experience with the lies of mormonism. It just seems to me that if Islam were true there would be proof in the Quran of evolution and other scientific findings. When I read it it just seems like a continuation of the worldview of the Bible. Very outdated.
It just seems to me that if Islam were true there would be proof in the Quran of evolution and other scientific findings.
Why????














To contain all the proof required to support all scientific truths would require a very large compilation of words, much larger then the average person could ingest and understand. The Qur'an is intended to be simple and easily understood..

I find it more understanding and more reasonable that the Qur'an does not contain any message that disputes or refutes any proven scientific truth. We need not use the Qur'an to support scientific facts. It is sufficient that proven scientific truths support the truth of the Qur'an.
Reply

AntiKarateKid
08-27-2009, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
I'm willing to believe in a supreme being. I realize we really can't prove that. But I'm looking for some solid evidence that Islam is the way. Or some other religion is the correct way to worship. So far, science seems to trump religion. You have to realize my background, I believed with all my heart in God and the mormon religion. Now that it has been proven false by a mountain of evidence I'm looking for the best way to worship God and so far have not found a home. I'm still leery of all religion in light of my experience with the lies of mormonism. It just seems to me that if Islam were true there would be proof in the Quran of evolution and other scientific findings. When I read it it just seems like a continuation of the worldview of the Bible. Very outdated.
Science trumps religion?

Do tell.
As I recall, science explains how and religion explains why. If you are dissapointed to find no scientific explanation for Allah's miracles for Adam, Moses, Jesus, etc... I don't know what to tell you except....

Duh?!

Go focus on the literary and scientific miracles of the Quran, it's preservation, the historical miracles of the Prophet, and then come back with faith.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-27-2009, 03:20 AM
I just think that if the Quran is going to state certain propositions about life, the world, birth, mankind, eternity, etc., I expect to find truths that go beyond the view of a group in the desert 1400 years ago. Some of the examples posted have been interesting (like the embryo stages) and I am reading others but was hoping for a bit more. I mean, after all, God is speaking right? Not just someone in the desert thinking he is having a revelation to update the Old Testament. I'm still open-minded about this, don't get me wrong, I'm just looking for more evidence to confirm the Quran. I can't just take it on blind faith. If you want me to just take something on faith then what difference is there between Islam and any other religion that asks me to take something on faith? I've already been in a religion that tells you to believe and quit doubting. That, my friend, is spiritual abuse. Your faith is only as good as what you are putting your trust in, right?
Reply

جوري
08-27-2009, 03:26 AM
The Quran is a book of signs not a book of science..
science is ever changing.. what you believe to be true today might in fact 'evolve' to something entirely different a century from now.. scientists from the future might think our brand of science is quackery, the way we look at some of the science of the last few centuries.. treating hysteria by removing the uterus, or curing syphilis by introducing Malaria into the body..
if that is the sort of thing you are looking for in a religion book, then your religion will become obsolete as times change..

if you want to measure it against common sense, the natural world in a way that is not counter intuitive to the nature of man and merit on its own contents, then you are most welcome to..
you may read this thread about some of the numerical miracles (amongst others) in the Quran..

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...html#post21423

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ord-god-4.html


http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/25...tml#post172587

You'll always hold a few articles on faith alone, whether you subscribe to a religion or not!

all the best
Reply

جوري
08-27-2009, 03:44 AM
by the way judging from the thread title alone.. I'd like to know what your beef is with Adam and Eve? did science establish evidence that the origin of life is something else?
to deny that there was an Adam and Eve, is to deny your own existence, and set yourself back to a black zone where you'll have to account for all that is in the cosmos in a lucid scientific fashion!

all the best
Reply

Ramadhan
08-27-2009, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
I just think that if the Quran is going to state certain propositions about life, the world, birth, mankind, eternity, etc., I expect to find truths that go beyond the view of a group in the desert 1400 years ago. Some of the examples posted have been interesting (like the embryo stages) and I am reading others but was hoping for a bit more. I mean, after all, God is speaking right? Not just someone in the desert thinking he is having a revelation to update the Old Testament. I'm still open-minded about this, don't get me wrong, I'm just looking for more evidence to confirm the Quran. I can't just take it on blind faith. If you want me to just take something on faith then what difference is there between Islam and any other religion that asks me to take something on faith? I've already been in a religion that tells you to believe and quit doubting. That, my friend, is spiritual abuse. Your faith is only as good as what you are putting your trust in, right?
Then you should do something about it, like reading more about science & Islam?
In these forums alone, there have been vast vast discussions about scientific islam & Qur'an.
In the creation of the universe itself, the big bang and how the universe is expanding.
They are mentioned in the qur'an, if you want read.
Reply

Eric H
08-27-2009, 03:53 AM
Greetings and peace be with you rabimansur;

Your faith is only as good as what you are putting your trust in, right?
God is just, merciful, forgiving, loving, kind, all good things come from God.

It is all very well to believe in God, but to have a faith and trust in God you have to do something. If your actions reflect the qualities of God of being just, merciful, forgiving, loving and kind, then how can you go wrong?

and the same God hears all our prayers despite all our differences.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
Reply

AntiKarateKid
08-27-2009, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
I just think that if the Quran is going to state certain propositions about life, the world, birth, mankind, eternity, etc., I expect to find truths that go beyond the view of a group in the desert 1400 years ago. Some of the examples posted have been interesting (like the embryo stages) and I am reading others but was hoping for a bit more. I mean, after all, God is speaking right? Not just someone in the desert thinking he is having a revelation to update the Old Testament. I'm still open-minded about this, don't get me wrong, I'm just looking for more evidence to confirm the Quran. I can't just take it on blind faith. If you want me to just take something on faith then what difference is there between Islam and any other religion that asks me to take something on faith? I've already been in a religion that tells you to believe and quit doubting. That, my friend, is spiritual abuse. Your faith is only as good as what you are putting your trust in, right?
My faith has an uncorrupted scripture, a literary style unmatched for 1400 years, a message which does away with the frivolous additions of men and is not shrouded by ambiguity and historical inaccuracy.

My faith will not die even if you were to burn every Quran in existence. The Ummah would write it anew.

My faith is nothing like the others.
Reply

Woodrow
08-27-2009, 04:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
My faith has an uncorrupted scripture, a literary style unmatched for 1400 years, a message which does away with the frivolous additions of men and is not shrouded by ambiguity and historical inaccuracy.

My faith will not die even if you were to burn every Quran in existence. The Ummah would write it anew.

My faith is nothing like the others.

I never thought of it in that light. You are correct. Islam does not depend on written scripture. If written Arabic were to disappear from the earth the very same Qur'an would still be recited as if nothing ever happened.
Reply

Chuck
08-27-2009, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
by the way judging from the thread title alone.. I'd like to know what your beef is with Adam and Eve? did science establish evidence that the origin of life is something else?
to deny that there was an Adam and Eve, is to deny your own existence, and set yourself back to a black zone where you'll have to account for all that is in the cosmos in a lucid scientific fashion!

all the best
Ramadan Mubarak sister!

Speaking of Adam and Eve, this is interesting video : http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&vid=...5930&gt1=42007

I'm not saying those are adam and eve, but it was Azy or somebody else, I don't remember exactly who was arguing that humans with so many differences (races) can't come from single parents.
Reply

Muezzin
08-27-2009, 02:06 PM
Guys, please discuss the topic rather than personally insulting each other/other ad hominem attacks. The people concerned are intelligent enough folk to know what I mean. I've edited and deleted certain posts accordingly.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-27-2009, 02:41 PM
Well I guess my Adam and Eve problem is reflected in the video that was posted. That puts Adam in Africa about 60,000 years ago and Eve about 120,000 years ago or so. Doesn't really agree with the Quran explanation of Adam and Eve where God makes Adam out of the dirt and then forms Eve out of Adam does it?




format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Ramadan Mubarak sister!

Speaking of Adam and Eve, this is interesting video : http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&vid=...5930&gt1=42007

I'm not saying those are adam and eve, but it was Azy or somebody else, I don't remember exactly who was arguing that humans with so many differences (races) can't come from single parents.
Reply

جوري
08-27-2009, 05:11 PM
We actually don't know how far back Adam and Eve lived, there is no time line for them..The whole Earth of 6000 years ago is a christian concept not an Islamic one.. surely you can't unearth two fossils and allege that they belonged to Adam and Eve... what sort of logic is that or lack thereof?

to begin with, it is very hard for remains to be fossilized.. there have to be right conditions for that to occur..
if you'd like to read on the process of how 'natural fossilization' occurs you may google.. but frankly your last conclusion/query shouldn't have even made it to the form of a question.. at least it isn't a question I expected from a rational adult!

all the best
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-27-2009, 06:34 PM
Sister I didn't say anything about fossils. I was just commenting on the National Geographic video that discussed DNA sequencing. It didn't even mention fossils. Maybe you didn't watch the video. I'm not sure why you feel that you need to make it personal and say I'm not a "rational adult."

I'm just here trying to learn.

BTW what is "the Rictus of Revenge"?
Reply

جوري
08-27-2009, 06:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
Sister I didn't say anything about fossils. I was just commenting on the National Geographic video that discussed DNA sequencing. It didn't even mention fossils. Maybe you didn't watch the video. I'm not sure why you feel that you need to make it personal and say I'm not a "rational adult."

I'm just here trying to learn.

BTW what is "the Rictus of Revenge"?

Greetings,

I didn't watch the videos, I went by this comment:

format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
That puts Adam in Africa about 60,000 years ago and Eve about 120,000 years ago or so
did you have another meaning for the comment other than what we inferred? I am not making it personal at all. I am merely questioning logic.. surely one can do that, without it being misconstrued as a 'personal attack'?

all the best
Reply

Azy
08-27-2009, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
to deny that there was an Adam and Eve, is to deny your own existence, and set yourself back to a black zone where you'll have to account for all that is in the cosmos in a lucid scientific fashion!
So if we don't just accept that 'God did it', we have to try find out what happened. How horrific.

format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
That puts Adam in Africa about 60,000 years ago and Eve about 120,000 years ago or so.
Presumably they don't actually think that these are directly equivalent to the 'Adam & Eve' of Abrahamic faith, mitochondrial Eve must have had a male partner after all. These are just the oldest discernable common ancestors of each sex of all currently living human beings.
Reply

Chuck
08-27-2009, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rabimansur
Well I guess my Adam and Eve problem is reflected in the video that was posted. That puts Adam in Africa about 60,000 years ago and Eve about 120,000 years ago or so. Doesn't really agree with the Quran explanation of Adam and Eve where God makes Adam out of the dirt and then forms Eve out of Adam does it?
I didn't say those were Adam and Eve in the video, read my post again. But it puts to rest the idea that humans couldn't have came from single parents with so many differences in all over the world which went on in the other thread.
Reply

جوري
08-27-2009, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
So if we don't just accept that 'God did it', we have to try find out what happened. How horrific.
I think you should indeed go do that.. I think it would serve you better than feigning knowledge that you have no understanding or mastery of!

Presumably they don't actually think that these are directly equivalent to the 'Adam & Eve' of Abrahamic faith, mitochondrial Eve must have had a male partner after all. These are just the oldest discernable common ancestors of each sex of all currently living human beings.
the oldest discernible might not be the oldest discernible a thousand years down the line!
There is no time limit or table as far as I am concerned!
Reply

جوري
08-27-2009, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
I didn't say those were Adam and Eve in the video, read my post again. But it puts to rest the idea that humans couldn't have came from single parents with so many differences in all over the world which went on in the other thread.

:sl:

I just noticed your other post.. thanks for the vid. I'll get around to it insha'Allah

:w:
Reply

UmmSqueakster
08-27-2009, 07:57 PM
Excuse me for not reading the entire thread. I'm not one to delve too deeply into scientific matters, but I do believe in theistic evolution, ie Allah (swt) created the earth and animals, and then directed their evolution over time. Adam (as) and Eve (ra) were those first human beings who were given a divine spark of a soul, making them the father and mother of mankind.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-27-2009, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
I didn't say those were Adam and Eve in the video, read my post again. But it puts to rest the idea that humans couldn't have came from single parents with so many differences in all over the world which went on in the other thread.
I agree that humans could come from single parents. I was just pointing out that the video puts scientific Adam at 60,000 years ago and scientific Eve at 150,000 years ago. That still presents a huge problem IMO for Adam and Eve to be a couple.
Reply

Chuck
08-27-2009, 09:23 PM
That still presents a huge problem IMO for Adam and Eve to be a couple.
Only if you believe those two in the video were Adam and Eve. Real Adam could have been 300,000 year old or more.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-27-2009, 10:44 PM
That still presents a huge problem IMO for Adam and Eve to be a couple.

Only if you believe those two in the video were Adam and Eve. Real Adam could have been 300,000 year old or more.
__________________

Yes I guess that is one way to look at it.
Reply

Muezzin
08-28-2009, 11:14 AM
Sigh.

format_quote Originally Posted by Me
Guys, please discuss the topic rather than personally insulting each other/other ad hominem attacks. The people concerned are intelligent enough folk to know what I mean. I've edited and deleted certain posts accordingly.
Don't make me hand out infractions in Ramadhan, please.
Reply

Muhaba
08-28-2009, 12:55 PM
you might want to check out the site http://www.islam-guide.com . It's got some scientific miracles of the Quraan. I particularly like the one about thunder.
Reply

Rabi Mansur
08-28-2009, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE][you might want to check out the site http://www.islam-guide.com . It's got some scientific miracles of the Quraan. I particularly like the one about thunder.
__________________
/QUOTE]

Shukran! I will check it out.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 37
    Last Post: 02-06-2020, 07:07 PM
  2. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 05-12-2010, 03:25 AM
  3. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-06-2009, 05:13 PM
  4. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-07-2008, 05:09 PM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-16-2007, 06:23 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!