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languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 09:42 PM
If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will came out, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."


what do you think on this verse
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GuestFellow
10-01-2009, 09:42 PM
The point of this topic is?
Reply

languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
The point of this topic is?
whether there s a pre-destiny belief in islam/qran or not...
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 09:59 PM
Basically...

Allah (swt) Knows everything that will happen to the whole creation form the time it was created till it dies and after it is resurrected.

Allah (swt) Knows all this from His Infinite Knowledge and Wisdom.

So He (swt) commanded the pen to write everything that will happen and the pen did- on the sacred tablet (which is safe with Allah and no-one has access to it)

This is Ultimate Decree and there is no change in it...

With me so far??

Ok- Now just because its written down it doesnt mean we are forced or compelled to do our actions- rather the fact that everything has been written down represents Allah (swt)'s Knowlegde of it.

Question If Allah (swt) Knows our end (if we will enter the Fire or Paradise) why create the world and Iblis (satan) and allow things to play thier role?

Beacause of the Infinite Justice of Allah (swt).

It would be irrational to punish the criminal, before he commits the crime.

And it would be injustice to prosecute a criminal, before he has a trial and the evidence bought against him.... (sounds like Guantanamo Bay)

So on the Day of Judgement no one who heard about Islam can not say they did not... Nor the oppressors deny thier deeds...

Everyone will see what they did and will be recognised by thier appearance.

"you will see the Mujrimûn (criminals, polytheists, sinners), fearful of that which is (recorded) therein. They will say: "Woe to us! What sort of Book is this that leaves neither a small thing nor a big thing, but has recorded it with numbers!" And they will find all that they did, placed before them, and your Lord treats no one with injustice."
(18:49)

But we chose which path to go down and do good or bad we are not puppets.


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Muhammad
10-01-2009, 10:08 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by languagemaniac
whether there s a pre-destiny belief in islam/qran or not...
Then the answer is yes:

Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz). [Qur'an 54:49]
Reply

Laila01x
10-01-2009, 10:09 PM
So what factors cannot we control...When we are born..When we die...our gender...who our parents are... how much money we will acquire...and who we marry?

please correct me if im wrong

Jazakallah
Reply

languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,

Then the answer is yes:

Verily, We have created all things with Qadar (Divine Preordainments of all things before their creation as written in the Book of Decrees Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz). [Qur'an 54:49]
hello ...

then what s the meaning of punishment and reward as you dont have any choice.god decideds what yo have to do . thats completely nonsense and thats why ı m not muslim...
Reply

languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 10:22 PM
But we chose which path to go down and do good or bad we are not puppets.


[/QUOTE]

. If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me came true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."

are you still sure we choose our path?
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by languagemaniac
hello ...

then what s the meaning of punishment and reward as you dont have any choice.god decideds what yo have to do . thats completely nonsense and thats why ı m not muslim...
please read my above post if God Wills you will get my answer
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by languagemaniac
d from Me came true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."

are you still sure we choose our path?
100% :)

You are in the same trap Iblis the Father of Satans was in many thousands of years before and that is to blame God for his sins and wrong actions...

Allah (swt) Commands Iblis to prostrate to Adam (as), but Iblis being the "free-thinker" that he is, decides that he knows better than Allah (swt) and he disobeys Allah out of his own free will has the audacity to accuse Allah of leading His astray...

"(Iblîs) said: "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit in wait against them (human beings) on Your Straight Path"
(7:16)
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 10:33 PM
When Allah (swt) commands us to do something or prohibits us from something He does so out of His Infinite Wisdom and Knows what is good and bad for us.

The problem is our minds are limited (we can not comprehend the number of stars in the sky) let alone the Infite Wisdom of Allah (swt) and thus we fall into the trap of asking (mostly out of arrogance rather than seeking clarification) "why would God do this and why would God to that" and since our little brains cant understand we end up saying "We are free-thinkers and we wont obey"...
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languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 10:34 PM
Book 033, Number 6390:

Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who is the most truthful (of the human beings) and his being truthful (is a fact) said: Verily your creation is on this wise. The constituents of one of you are collected for forty days in his mother's womb in the form of blood, after which it becomes a clot of blood in another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh and forty days later Allah sends His angel to it with instructions concerning four things, so the angel writes down his livelihood, his death, his deeds, his fortune and misfortune. By Him, besides Whom there is no god, that one amongst you acts like the people deserving Paradise until between him and Paradise there remains but the distance of a cubit, when suddenly the writing of destiny overcomes him and he begins to act like the denizens of Hell and thus enters Hell, and another one acts in the way of the denizens of Hell, until there remains between him and Hell a distance of a cubit that the writing of destiny overcomes him and then he begins to act like the people of Paradise and enters Paradise.

this hadith from sahihi Muslim concerning pre-destiny in islam
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languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
please read my above post if God Wills you will get my answer
you absolutly can believe me that ı ve read your anwser maybe god sealed my heart for that reason ı couldnt understand ur point what u meant
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 10:40 PM
Ok lets make this really really simple...

Anyone who denies that Predestination and Decree doesnt not exist is a kafir (disbeliever) because all muslims must believe that Good and Bad is from Allah (swt).

It is not like the common understanding of Predestination that we are forced and compelled to do what we do and then punished for it.

Rather Predestination means Allah Knows what will happen to us and what choices we will make, so He wrote it down, that writing down has no relevance or effect in our ability to chose.

eg. You went to a shop and I know you will buy 5 apples so i write it on my hand. You come out with 5 apples- does that mean i forced you into buying 5 apples?

No

In the same way, Allah (swt) can write down what will happen and what choices we make and it has no bearing on our ability you choose between right and wrong.

My advice to you is to actually sit down with a scholar and go through this topic... rather than randomly picking out ayat and hadith and pretending to know something you dont for the sake of arguing.

If you are sincere about clarifying your misconceptions about islam then you will be accepted with open arms and open hearts.
because....

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path."
(2:255)

:)
Reply

Laila01x
10-01-2009, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
Ok lets make this really really simple...

Anyone who denies that Predestination and Decree doesnt not exist is a kafir (disbeliever) because all muslims must believe that Good and Bad is from Allah (swt).

It is not like the common understanding of Predestination that we are forced and compelled to do what we do and then punished for it.

My advice to you is to actually sit down with a scholar and go through this topic... rather than randomly picking out ayat and hadith and pretending to know something you dont for the sake of arguing.

If you are since about clarifying your misconceptions about islam then you will be accepted with open arms and open hearts.

and

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path."
(2:255)
Great Answer Brother

JazakALLAH
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
Ok lets make this really really simple...

Anyone who denies that Predestination and Decree doesnt not exist is a kafir (disbeliever) because all muslims must believe that Good and Bad is from Allah (swt).

It is not like the common understanding of Predestination that we are forced and compelled to do what we do and then punished for it.

Rather Predestination means Allah Knows what will happen to us and what choices we will make, so He wrote it down, that writing down has no relevance or effect in our ability to chose.

eg. You went to a shop and I know you will buy 5 apples so i write it on my hand. You come out with 5 apples- does that mean i forced you into buying 5 apples?

No

In the same way, Allah (swt) can write down what will happen and what choices we make and it has no bearing on our ability you choose between right and wrong.

My advice to you is to actually sit down with a scholar and go through this topic... rather than randomly picking out ayat and hadith and pretending to know something you dont for the sake of arguing.

If you are sincere about clarifying your misconceptions about islam then you will be accepted with open arms and open hearts.
because....

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path."
(2:255)

:)
Forgive me guys if i said anyhting incorrect, i havent got my notes on me so just answering from the top of my head.

Lack of ability to understand simple issues about the Divine Decree has lead bigger fish like Iblis astray, so me and you are nobody...
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languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 10:55 PM
"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path." [/B] (2:255)

:)[/QUOTE]

you depend only on your belief no matter how much inconsistent quran is.sorry but ı couldnt get any satisfactory explantion for my questions although ı m very keen to find right anwser s but ı was dissapointed..
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 11:02 PM
I dont mean to be rude but these are not topics that you can just sit and discuss on forum over a cup of tea or dinner.

For start, you dont know arabic so how will you be able to access the Quran and analyse it?

The english? Well that's not actually the Quran.

You know better than me, that many things when transerlated lose the true mean and some things can be expressed in the limited language like english.

So you should either sit with a scholar or someone more knowledgeable than me (at least- cos i aint even a student of knowlegde) who will be more than happy to answer your questions satisfactorily,
Reply

A-Believer-25
10-01-2009, 11:22 PM
:sl:

I guess since this subject has been bought up I have a question of my own, if it's ok to ask, inshallah. :)

We see in the Quran that Allah (SWT) guides whom he Wills, and we also see that the Quran says that we have a choice to choose belief and disbelief.

I think I understand the belief of Qadr, but what does it mean that "Allah guides whom he wills"? How can belief be a choice if it is Allah (SWT) who decides who believes and disbelieves? I know that nothing takes place with out the Knowledge and Will of Allah (SWT) but when Allah (SWT) guides someone, does that mean that freedom of choice is gone? I have so many thoughts when it comes to this subject so I am trying to get all my thoughts in this question so I hope my question is clear, inshallah.

I hope someone can clarify this to me? inshallah.
Reply

languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
I dont mean to be rude but these are not topics that you can just sit and discuss on forum over a cup of tea or dinner.

For start, you dont know arabic so how will you be able to access the Quran and analyse it?

The english? Well that's not actually the Quran.

You know better than me, that many things when transerlated lose the true mean and some things can be expressed in the limited language like english.

So you should either sit with a scholar or someone more knowledgeable than me (at least- cos i aint even a student of knowlegde) who will be more than happy to answer your questions satisfactorily,

but why do i need a scholar whereas quran itself is a mubeen that means clear, in detail, explained entirely?
Reply

abu_musab461
10-01-2009, 11:36 PM
Guidance is Allah (swt) helping people along the way of becoming muslim because of thier good actions and desire to understand islam... while misguidance is Allah (swt) preventing a person becoming guided because of thier own rebliousness.

eg. while abu sufiyan (ra) fought the prophet (pbuh) Allah (swt) kept his in misguidacne becasuse thats what he wanted but when he saw Makkah will definatly be conqured he surrended him self to the mercy of the muslims and went to the prophet (pbuh) making an active effort to learn the deen so Allah Guided him- opened his heart to embracing islam.

There are some clear Ayah also in the Quran will post them when i find them insha Allah
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languagemaniac
10-01-2009, 11:46 PM
179. Many are the Jinns and men we have created for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

this ayah is another one that ı couldnt comprehend because as far as i undertand from this verse, god created men and jinns for his hellfire to throw out...

on the other hand, god evidently will throw out to hell most people on the world why why why? I believe in god but not like this one because god of quran seems to be very ruthless. god creates humankind and most of them will go to hell. for the sake of god, do you this is logical,reasonable?peace all...
Reply

A-Believer-25
10-02-2009, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
Guidance is Allah (swt) helping people along the way of becoming muslim because of thier good actions and desire to understand islam... while misguidance is Allah (swt) preventing a person becoming guided because of thier own rebliousness.

eg. while abu sufiyan (ra) fought the prophet (pbuh) Allah (swt) kept his in misguidacne becasuse thats what he wanted but when he saw Makkah will definatly be conqured he surrended him self to the mercy of the muslims and went to the prophet (pbuh) making an active effort to learn the deen so Allah Guided him- opened his heart to embracing islam.

There are some clear Ayah also in the Quran will post them when i find them insha Allah
I understand that Allah (SWT) guides those who want to be guided, but is the reward based on if the person was guided in the end, or the persons intentions on wanting to be guided?
Reply

abu_musab461
10-02-2009, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by languagemaniac
179. Many are the Jinns and men we have created for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

this ayah is another one that ı couldnt comprehend because as far as i undertand from this verse, god created men and jinns for his hellfire to throw out...

on the other hand, god evidently will throw out to hell most people on the world why why why? I believe in god but not like this one because god of quran seems to be very ruthless. god creates humankind and most of them will go to hell. for the sake of god, do you this is logical,reasonable?peace all...
You seem to quote ayat (please give full reference for them) but ignore the last part of them

eg. "for they are heedless (of warning)"

This shows that Allah (swt) through His Infinite justice would not throw jinns and men into hell for no reason rather the reason is given at the end of the verse.
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alcurad
10-02-2009, 12:46 AM
the universe is deterministic to to the extent of what we call the 'laws of physics', ie. nothing that occurs within it contradicts them, otherwise we choose most of our actions don't we?

humans are responsible for actions they committed while being aware of and were not forced to do, so god does not 'guide' people or 'misguide' them as if he were some puppeteer, as obviously what's the point of reward and punishment then?

God 'mis/guiding' someone does not mean he mis/guided them in the sense humans interact with each other.
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tetsujin
10-02-2009, 01:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
Basically...

Allah (swt) Knows everything that will happen to the whole creation form the time it was created till it dies and after it is resurrected.

Allah (swt) Knows all this from His Infinite Knowledge and Wisdom.

So He (swt) commanded the pen to write everything that will happen and the pen did- on the sacred tablet (which is safe with Allah and no-one has access to it)

This is Ultimate Decree and there is no change in it...
So if I understand what you've said correctly:

Let us assume we have a die (or deck of cards) or anything else which we can think of as a random probability generator.


We roll the die (six sided and true), it lands as 6 facing up, and we write it down. We repeat the process 9 times and we write it down each time. At the end of all this we have some random (for us) 10 digit number. At the beginning of time, god knew that we would exist, that we would roll that die, the number of times we would roll it, and the results of the roll each time.

We had an option to roll the die or not, we did, and god knew we would long before we existed.

Does that agree with what you've said?

Does this extend to each and every thought and action?

All the best,

Faysal
Reply

abu_musab461
10-02-2009, 02:11 AM
i think you got it!

Bravo
Reply

abu_musab461
10-02-2009, 02:19 AM
Found it!!!

"Verily, Allâh is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger (or less when it is smaller) than it. And as for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did Allâh intend by this parable?" By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only those who are Al-Fâsiqûn (the rebellious, disobedient to Allâh)." (2:26)


"And be not like those who forgot Allâh (i.e. became disobedient to Allâh) and He caused them to forget their ownselves, (let them to forget to do righteous deeds). Those are the Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allâh).
(59:19)
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tetsujin
10-02-2009, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
i think you got it!

Bravo

Thank You.

One more question:

At any given point in time, is it possible for the state of the universe (physically and spritually) to be in a condition that does not agree with what was written down before time began? Is it possible at all, that given innumerable choices and chances, we can fashion a world that god could not have forseen and that was not written down?

All the best,


Faysal
Reply

abu_musab461
10-02-2009, 03:17 AM
No.

Because Allah (swt) not only the Knows the Past Present and Future He (swt) even Knows the Future that never happened.

Eg. You have a choice of marrying two women you dont know who to chose...

the prophet (pbuh) taught us a prayer to seek the counsel of Allah (swt) Guide us to what is better for us in this life and the next.

So say you married Sister A and refused Sister B.

You live your whole life with sister A until you die.

Allah Knows what you have happend to you if you had married sister B, how your life would be and how it would have ended, even though it never happend.

So He Knows every single infinite probability of every impossibility (meaning: even those things that will never happen.)

That's why we say Allah is All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

Evidence for this is in


If you could but see when they will be held over the (Hell) Fire! They will say: "Would that we were but sent back (to the world)! Then we would not deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of our Lord, and we would be of the believers!"
(6:27)

Nay, it has become manifest to them what they had been concealing before. But if they were returned (to the world), they would certainly revert to that which they were forbidden. And indeed they are liars.
(6:28)

So even though nobody will ever be allowed to return back to earth, Allah (swt) is saying that if We had returned them they would still disbelieve.
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جوري
10-02-2009, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by languagemaniac
and thats why ı m not muslim...
----

here are a couple of scholarly replies to your queries, whether or not they make sense to you, is rather inconsequential!

all the best

Name of Questioner

Hisham - Egypt


Title

Divine Predestination & Man's Free Will


Question

As-Salamu `alaykum. I never understand how we are mukhayyarin (have free will in doing what we wish) and not musayyarin (have no free will in doing what we wish). Did not Allah create time? Therefore, all the events since the moment of creation to the end of time must be already created. In addition to this, how can we even begin to imply that Allah does not know what is to happen in the future? How can a man control what he does if it is already written? So far I have received many interpretations that all seemed to be weak. Can anyone tell me or would it better just to say that Allah did not intend everything to be understood by man? Thank you.


Date

24/Feb/2003


Name of Counsellor

A Group of Islamic Researchers


Topic
Muslim Belief

Answer


Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for your interesting question the great confidence you place in us. We implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and enlighten our hearts with the light of Islam!

As regards the issue you raised, we’d like to furnish you with a detailed discussion of the differnt queries regarding qadar as given by Dr Ja`far Sheikh Idris, professor of Islamic studies, Institute of Islamic and Arabic Sciences, Washington, who states:

“The original meaning of the Arabic word qadar is a specified measure or amount whether of quantities or qualities. It has many other usages, which branch out from this core. Almighty Allah says, “We have created every thing by measure (bi-qadar).” (Al-Qamar: 49)

Allah (Mighty and Exalted bre He) knows before creating anything, that He is going to create it and that it shall be of such and such magnitude, quality or nature, etc. He also specifies the time of its coming into being and its passing away, and the place of its occurrence. If so, then one who believes in the true God should believe that there are no accidents in nature. If something disagreeable happens to him, he should say “Allah qaddara (ordained), and He did what He willed” and not grieve himself by wishing that it had not occurred, or worrying why it should occur. If, in contrast, something agreeable happens to him he should not boast of it, but thank Allah for it. In this context, Allah says, “Naught of disaster befalleth in the earth or in yourselves but it is in a Book before We bring it into being. Lo! That is easy for Allah. That ye grieve not for the sake of that which hath escaped you, nor yet exult because of that which hath been given. Allah loveth not all prideful boasters.” (Al-Hadid: 22-23)

If Allah Almighty predetermines everything, that includes our so-called free actions, in what way can they be said to be free, and how are we responsible for them? This question occasioned the appearance, at a very early history of Islam, of two extreme theological sects. One of them, called the Qadariyyah, asserted man’s free will and responsibility to the extent of denying Allah’s foreknowledge, and claiming that Allah knows our free made actions only after we have performed them. The other, called the Jabriyyah, held the opposite view and claimed that there was no difference between the motions of inanimate things and our movements in performing so-called free actions, and that when we use intentional language we speak only metaphorically.

But there is no need to go to such extremes, since it is not difficult to reconcile Divine qadar (predestination) and human responsibility. Allah decided to create man as a free agent, but He knows (and how can He not know!) before creating every man how he is going to use his free will; what, for instance, his reaction would be when a Prophet clarifies Allah’s message to him. This foreknowledge and its registering in a ‘Book’ is called qadar.

“But if we are free to use our will” a Qadari might say, “we may use it in ways that contradict Allah’s will, and in that case we would not be right in claiming that everything is willed or decreed by Allah.”

The Qur’an answers this question by reminding us that it was Allah who willed that we shall be of free will, and it is He who allows us to use our will. Allah, Most High, says, “Lo! This is an Admonishment, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord. Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.” (Al-Insan: 29-30)

“If so,” a Qadari might say, “He could have prevented us from doing evil."

Yes indeed He could. Allah says, “Had Allah willed, He would have brought them all together to the guidance; if thy Lord had willed whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together.” (Yunus: 99) “Had Allah willed, they were not idolaters; and We have not appointed thee a watcher over them neither art thou their guardian.” (Al-An`am: 107)

But Allah has willed that men shall be free especially in regard to matters of belief and disbelief. Allah Almighty says, “Say: The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.” (Al-Kahf: 29)

But men would not be so free if whenever any of them wills to do evil Allah prevents him from doing it and compels him to do good.

“If our actions are willed by Allah,” someone might say, “then they are in fact His actions.”

This objection is based on a confusion that Allah wills what we will in the sense of granting us the will to choose and enabling us to execute that will, i.e., He creates all that makes it possible for us to do it. He does not will it in the sense of doing it, otherwise it would be quite in order to say, when we drink or eat or sleep for instance that Allah performed these actions. Allah creates them, He does not do or perform them.

Another objection, based on another confusion, is that if Allah allows us to do evil, then He approves of it and likes it.

However, to will something in the sense of allowing a person to do it is one thing; and to approve of his action and commend it, is quite another, NOT everything that Allah wills He likes. He has, as we have just read in the Qur’an, granted man the choice between belief and disbelief, but He does not, of course, like men to disbelieve (to be thankless). Allah Almighty says, “If you art ungrateful, Allah is independent of you. Yet He approves not ungratefulness in His servants; but if you are grateful, He will approve it in you.” (Az-Zumar: 7)”

Based on Dr. Ja`far Sheikh Idris’s article “Belief in Qadar”. (Source: http://isgkc.org/pillars_qadar.htm).

You can also read:

Between Destiny, Working and Free Will

Fate or Free Will, Nature or Nurture


Title

Predestination and Making Effort: Any Contradiction?


Question

Is everything in this world—death, sustenance, success, failure, happiness, misery, etc.—predestined for man? And is it true that some people are predestined to enter Paradise and others predestined to be admitted to the Hellfire? If so, what is the value of man's deeds? Can doctors save a person in an accident from death? Do hard work and perseverance and wise management of trade or agriculture or manufacturing have something to do with increasing one's income, or is one's income predetermined whether one is a hard worker or not?



Date

10/Nov/2005


Name of Mufti

Yusuf Al-Qaradawi


Topic
Muslim Creed, Muslim Belief

Answer


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Thanks for your question, and we earnestly implore Allah to guide us all to the best both in this world and in the Hereafter.
Islam ordains Muslims to make use of the available means and do their best to bring themselves benefits and ward off evils and harm, all the while believing, heart and soul, that this all cannot be achieved without Almighty Allah's will. Alah's foreknowledge of man's actions doesn't contradict making use of the available means, as Allah has predestined the outcomes of events and predetermined the means leading to them.
In his response to the question, the eminent Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi states the following:
The issue raised in the question has been debated for years. It seems that people will never cease to raise this question, but there is no cause to be confused regarding it, for Islam has given a complete answer to it, as illustrated in the following points:
1. Everything in this universe is predestined and registered with Almighty Allah. This is an established principle in Islam, though we do not know the kind or nature of this registering. All what Muslims should know in this regard is that Almighty Allah has created this universe and everything therein according to a predetermined measurement with Him and that He is All-Knowing over everything and keeps count of all things. Everything taking place in this universe happens within His knowledge and will. He Almighty says:
(And not an atom's weight in the earth or in the sky escapeth your Lord, nor what is less than that or greater than that, but it is (written) in a clear Book.) (Yunus 10:61)
(Not a leaf falleth but He knoweth it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but (it is noted) in a clear record. ‏) (Al-An`am 6:59)
(Naught of disaster befalleth in the earth or in yourselves but it is in a Book before We bring it into being. Lo! That is easy for Allah‏.) (Al-Hadid 57:22)
2. This foreknowledge of Almighty Allah and His keeping count of all things and registering them before they happen do not contradict working hard and making use of the available means. Almighty Allah has predetermined the outcomes of events. He has also predetermined the means leading to these outcomes. For instance, He Almighty does not predetermine a student's success haphazardly; in order for a student to succeed, he or she is to undertake the available means leading to success such as hard work, attention in class, and perseverance. One's acting according to the available means does not contradict predestination; on the contrary, it is part of this predestination. That is why when the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was asked whether medical treatments and protective statements of dhikr might ward off Allah's predestination, he (peace and blessings be upon him) decisively answered, "They are (part) of Allah's destination" (Ahmad, Ibn Majah, and At-Tirmidhi).
When plague was widespread in the Levant during the caliphate of `Umar, he, after consulting the other Companions with him, decided not to enter it. Some people said to him, "Do you flee from Allah's predestination?" He (may Allah be pleased with him) answered, "Yes, I flee from Allah's predestination to Allah's predestination too. Suppose that there are two pieces of land, one fertile and the other barren. If I farmed the fertile one, would I not be doing so according to Allah's predestination? and if I farmed the barren one, would this not be too according to Allah's predestination!"
3. Predestination is a matter of the Unseen. We know that something is predestined only after it takes place. Before its occurrence we are ordained to follow the natural laws of doing things and the teachings of Shari`ah so that we bring about benefits in both this world and the Hereafter. This requires us to make use of the lawful available means of doing things, as did the person who most believed in Allah's predestination, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). In the beginning of the Islamic call, he advised the Muslims under persecution in Makkah to migrate to Abyssinia. In the Hijrah to Madinah, he took all the required precautions and preparations for guaranteeing a safe journey.
For example, he prepared the camels that would take him and his companion Abu Bakr to Madinah, changed the route [to throw off pursuit], hired the guide that would show them that route, hid in a cave during the journey, arranged someone to bring them food and water [while they hid in the cave], and provided his family with means of sustenance that would suffice them for about a year. Mind that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not leave his family without sustenance, depending on Providence alone in this regard.
In the battles against the disbelievers, he would take all the required precautions too: He would send scouts to bring him information about the enemy, wear armor and a helmet, distribute archers, etc. When a person asked him whether he could untie his camel and depend on Allah to protect it for him or he had to tie it, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) answered him, "Tie it and depend on Allah (in all your affairs after making use of all the required means)" (Ibn Hibban, Ibn Khuzaimah and At-Tabarani). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, "One should run away from the leper as one runs away from a lion"‏ (Al-Bukhari) and, "The cattle suffering from a disease should not be mixed with healthy cattle (as a precaution)"(Al-Bukhari).‏
4. Lazy and sinful people should not attribute their failure and sins to predestination. Doing so is a sign of inability and denial of responsibility. May Allah have mercy upon Dr. Muhammad Iqbal who said, "A Muslim of weak faith does nothing and attributes his failure to predestination; while a Muslim of strong faith does his best and if he then fails, he says this is Allah's predestination that cannot be avoided." The early Muslims were of this latter type. In one of the battles of the Islamic conquests, Al-Mughirah ibn Shu`bah entered unto a Roman leader who asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughirah answered, "We are Allah's predestination that has befallen you, so had you been on a cloud, we would have ascended to you or you would have descended to us!"
Hence, a person should not attribute his failure to predestination until he has spared no effort to avoid this failure. Two Muslims were wrestling before the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). The defeated person said at the end of wrestling, "Allah suffices me." The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) saw this statement as reflecting the man's failure and laziness to resist his opponent in the game; hence the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to him, "Almighty Allah blames His servants for laziness, so you are to do your best and if, after this, you are overcome, you can then say 'Allah suffices me.'"
5. There are multiple fruits for truly believing in Almighty Allah's predestination. He who does his best in all fields and carries out all his duties while putting all trust in Almighty Allah, will be granted hope when he is faced with disappointment, courage and perseverance when struggling and facing danger, patience on being afflicted with calamities, and satisfaction with his licit gains even if they are small.

Related Questions


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Reply

tetsujin
10-02-2009, 05:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abu_musab461
No.

Because Allah (swt) not only the Knows the Past Present and Future He (swt) even Knows the Future that never happened.

Eg. You have a choice of marrying two women you dont know who to chose...

the prophet (pbuh) taught us a prayer to seek the counsel of Allah (swt) Guide us to what is better for us in this life and the next.

So say you married Sister A and refused Sister B.

You live your whole life with sister A until you die.

Allah Knows what you have happend to you if you had married sister B, how your life would be and how it would have ended, even though it never happend.

So He Knows every single infinite probability of every impossibility (meaning: even those things that will never happen.)

That's why we say Allah is All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
Fair enough.

One more question:

Hypothetically, if god pushed some universal reset button and he created the universe to be precisely as it was whenever and however he did it this time. Are you saying that the course of events which took place would be the same as this time and that god, in his infinite wisdom, knows exactly how it will turn out to be, or that the sequence of events could change this time but god, in his infinite wisdom, knows exactly how it will turn out to be?

Furthermore, is he writing down everything that will happen, or everything that could possibly happen.

All the best,

Faysal
Reply

Sampharo
10-02-2009, 08:42 AM
Are you saying that the course of events which took place would be the same as this time and that god, in his infinite wisdom, knows exactly how it will turn out to be, or that the sequence of events could change this time but god, in his infinite wisdom, knows exactly how it will turn out to be?

Furthermore, is he writing down everything that will happen, or everything that could possibly happen.
"Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid." [18:109]

Wondering in the infinite wisdom of God is both a source of inspiration, and also a source of brain freeze once the multitude and scale of things start hitting us, showing how puny human minds are.

It is proof that there is an all-encompassing knowledgeable entity that knows the details of incredibly infinite things.

I once saw an encapsulated glass sphere of water and an air bubble. Saw very small shrimps in them. It was on sale for around $500. I asked the seller what is it and why is it this expensive. He explained proudly that this a great achievement, that it is a complete closed ecosystem where you don't have to feed it or air it, just subject it to sunlight. He explained that it had three organisms: the shrimps, kelp, and a special bacteria. The bacteria eat the shrimp waste and break down for the kelp to use, the kelp produce the oxygen and feed the shrimp, and the shrimp injest some of the kelp and micro-organisms as well. All are in balance so it survives for years.

I asked him would it be possible for them to make a bigger sphere with perhaps five organisms so that we can see a bit of variety instead of those tiny shrimp that I could hardly see, and he said completely not! WHY?! He explained that the calculations of the probabilities of combining five organisms were far too complex and infinitely harder to balance the populations and types of organisms. I asked whether it is just possible to put interdependent organisms and let them sort themselves out, he said it doesn't work, they tried it, one species always ends up overeating and killing out another and the cycle of life falls apart.

Earth has more than a million organisms, and it is a closed ecosystem, with many subsystems involved. Just when honeybees were getting lesser and lesser everybody shrieked and panicked that an important factor in pollinating plants if gone will render life impossible to continue. But of course honey bees went nowhere, and we have no shortage praise God.

Now do you understand what is meant by knowing everything, and controlling everything?

Subhanallah
Reply

syilla
10-02-2009, 08:51 AM
:salamext:

i wish i can find that old thread...who gives this kind of example using mathematical probability... it is so easy to understand lol...

and i was remembering this ayah



Yusuf Ali: For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. Allah does not change a people's lot unless they change what is in their hearts. But when (once) Allah willeth a people's punishment, there can be no turning it back, nor will they find, besides Him, any to protect.
Reply

tetsujin
10-02-2009, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
I once saw an encapsulated glass sphere of water and an air bubble. Saw very small shrimps in them. It was on sale for around $500. I asked the seller what is it and why is it this expensive. He explained proudly that this a great achievement, that it is a complete closed ecosystem where you don't have to feed it or air it, just subject it to sunlight.

Now do you understand what is meant by knowing everything, and controlling everything?

Subhanallah
That is not a closed system, the sunlight plays a very large part in sustaining that glass sphere's organisms.

I understand what you've mean't but that wasn't related to my question.


All the best,

Faysal
Reply

Sampharo
10-02-2009, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
That is not a closed system, the sunlight plays a very large part in sustaining that glass sphere's organisms.

I understand what you've mean't but that wasn't related to my question.


All the best,

Faysal
God's knowledge of every single human actions and events is infinite and all-encompassing. I already answered your question about everything being written down with the ocean used as ink verse. Every action and event and number of atoms that every microorganism has and every spot it will ever move to, is all known to God.

The sphere was relative to Earth, which is still subjected to sunlight despite it being a closed ecosystem. It was a comparison example to show you how far humans are unable to calculate (even with mathematically perfect computers at our disposal) population densities to mix together and let them sort themselves out without wiping each other out. You seemed in total AWE at the concept that God would know EVERYTHING we do and did and so I wanted to show you another example where millions upon millions of creatures had to be controlled and balanced for millions of years for them to ever survive that long. If God did this, why is it not easy to comprehend his infinite knowledge?
Reply

tetsujin
10-03-2009, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sampharo
God's knowledge of every single human actions and events is infinite and all-encompassing. I already answered your question about everything being written down with the ocean used as ink verse. Every action and event and number of atoms that every microorganism has and every spot it will ever move to, is all known to God.

The sphere was relative to Earth, which is still subjected to sunlight despite it being a closed ecosystem. It was a comparison example to show you how far humans are unable to calculate (even with mathematically perfect computers at our disposal) population densities to mix together and let them sort themselves out without wiping each other out. You seemed in total AWE at the concept that God would know EVERYTHING we do and did and so I wanted to show you another example where millions upon millions of creatures had to be controlled and balanced for millions of years for them to ever survive that long. If God did this, why is it not easy to comprehend his infinite knowledge?
I appreciate your efforts. I think I'm not making myself clear. I accepted abu_musab461's proposal that god is omniscient. I've granted that already. I wanted some clarification about his perspective of the Islamic view on the nature of the universe/god.

More specifically, would god have knowledge of all events which are to take place in the universe prior to the creation of the universe, or was the universe created and then at that moment god was also creating that knowledge.

All the best,

Faysal
Reply

Sampharo
10-03-2009, 06:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by tetsujin
More specifically, would god have knowledge of all events which are to take place in the universe prior to the creation of the universe,
How can it take place IN THE UNIVERSE if it's prior to the creation of THE UNIVERSE? But the answer is still yes, he knew what was in non-existence and what will happen before, during and after creation of heavens, earth and space along with anywhere or anytime else that we don't about.

or was the universe created and then at that moment god was also creating that knowledge.
God's knowledge is not a creation, it is his attribute. That's like saying "here is a truck, when will it become 3 tonnes?". God is not subject to anything and that includes time.
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