Christian worship of Jesus..

Salaam all. As we know that the major Christianity worship Jesus and I have a question regarding this. If Jesus is both fully human and fully God, do not you think that you worship human along with God when you worship Him? Other wise you have to seperate Jesus as Jesus the human and Jesus the God.

anatolian said:

Salaam all. As we know that the major Christianity worship Jesus and I have a question regarding this. If Jesus is both fully human and fully God, do not you think that you worship human along with God when you worship Him? Other wise you have to seperate Jesus as Jesus the human and Jesus the God.

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Salaam!

Are you anatolian from ChristianForums? Hiya, brother!

In response to the question, yes, we believe Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. And no, we don't need to seperate Jesus' humaness from His divinity when we worship Him, because Jesus is not suffering from some sort of multiple personality disorder and there aren't two completely different Jesus'- His human nature is divine, and His divine nature is human, if that makes sense! It's like referring to someone who's black and male as seperate people, merely because they have two different traits that makes them who they are. It's like saying 'Oh, you know Dave?' 'Who, black Dave or the male Dave?' 'Well, both... they're the same person.'

To say that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine is not to create a hyrbrid God-man, nor is it to say that Jesus has a split personality (though, admittedly, sometimes we do when we talk about him). He is just Jesus -- God incarnated among us. When we worship him we are worshipping God, yet I never feel any need to do any mental gymastics to somehow separate his humanity from his divinity.

i have a seperate question, can Christians produce a single verse from the Gospels where Jesus ever claimed to have two natures, or where he claimed to have a divine and human nature all in one, being fully man, and fully God, and where he made such a distinction?

The_Prince said:

i have a seperate question, can Christians produce a single verse from the Gospels where Jesus ever claimed to have two natures, or where he claimed to have a divine and human nature all in one, being fully man, and fully God, and where he made such a distinction?

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Nope. What happened is that in reading the scriptures as they talked about Jesus, Christians realized that in some places it talked about Jesus as just an ordinary man -- he wept, was hungry, bled and died, he had limited knowledge, he was clearly uniquely not God the Father; yet in those same scriptures, often in the same context, he exhibited traits that are known to be uniquely divine in nature -- he did miracles, he claimed the power to forgive sins, he was describe as existing before time and outside of creation, even being the one who did the act of creating, he was one with the Father.

The first century Christians never seemed to question these things, they just accepted them as all being true of Jesus. But in later centuries questions arose about whether one set of traits meant that Jesus ought to be understood as divine and then another that Jesus ought to be understood as merely human, and then some came up with all sorts of hybrid options -- a human body with a divine soul for instance or that his body was just an illusion. The church wrestled with it for about 300 years till the forumula called the hypostatic union was articulated and that idea seems to have stuck, at least with the majority.

But while the idea as you hear us talk about it has its roots in the Bible it is never specifically spelled out in the Bible. If it had been, it would have saved us a few hundred years of reading and wrestling with the idea to understand how it was that the Bible presented Jesus both ways at the same time.

Grace Seeker said:

The first century Christians never seemed to question these things, they just accepted them as all being true of Jesus. But in later centuries questions arose about whether one set of traits meant that Jesus ought to be understood as divine and then another that Jesus ought to be understood as merely human, and then some came up with all sorts of hybrid options -- a human body with a divine soul for instance or that his body was just an illusion. The church wrestled with it for about 300 years till the forumula called the hypostatic union was articulated and that idea seems to have stuck, at least with the majority.

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Is there possibility that first century christians never question the status of jesus pbuh because they knew for certain that Jesus pbuh was a human and not god?

naidamar said:

Is there possibility that first century christians never question the status of jesus pbuh because they knew for certain that Jesus pbuh was a human and not god?

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The "possibility"? Sure. Anything's possible. But the probability? I would say, NO. We get first century reports of people worshipping Jesus from as varied source materials as the Didache (a first century book of rituals for worship in the infant church) and official governmental reports of the Roman empire. Add to that the reality that Christians suffered death rather than deny Jesus as Lord and worship the emperor as God, and it becomes pretty clear that whether it was true or not, first century Christians certainly behaved as if they believed Jesus was God and worthy of worship.

Grace Seeker said:

Nope. What happened is that in reading the scriptures as they talked about Jesus, Christians realized that in some places it talked about Jesus as just an ordinary man -- he wept, was hungry, bled and died, he had limited knowledge, he was clearly uniquely not God the Father; yet in those same scriptures, often in the same context, he exhibited traits that are known to be uniquely divine in nature -- he did miracles, he claimed the power to forgive sins, he was describe as existing before time and outside of creation, even being the one who did the act of creating, he was one with the Father.

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Did he hold the two natures at the same time? meaning that at a certain time he is acting as a human and as a God?

naidamar said:

Is there possibility that first century christians never question the status of jesus pbuh because they knew for certain that Jesus pbuh was a human and not god?

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Oh sure. I'll post a video later addressing such concerns.

Danah said:

Did he hold the two natures at the same time? meaning that at a certain time he is acting as a human and as a God?

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Danah, I notice that you are a Muslim and a woman. Let me ask you: Do you hold those two natures at the same time? Meaning that at a certain you are acting as a Muslim and as a woman?

Yes, from his conception, Jesus held both natures simualtaneously with one another. Prior to his conception the human Jesus did not exist, only the one eternal God who eternal exists in Trinity. But with God's putting on of flesh, his incarnating of himself as one of us, from that time on there has always existed this hypostatic union of the divine and human in which Jesus possessed the two natures in the one person but they were neither comingled. So, his human nature was in no way confused with nor subsumed into the divinity. The "official" language coming out of the Council of Chalcedon where this was discussed at great length was that perfect divinity and perfect humanity are united in Christ "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation."

here are your own Gospel sources showing nobody believed Jesus was God or worshipped him, this was during his lifte time:

http://muslim-responses.com/Just_a_Prophet/Just_a_Prophet_
http://muslim-responses.com/The_Blind_Man/The_Blind_Man_
http://muslim-responses.com/Messiah_or_Prophet/Messiah_or_Prophet_
http://muslim-responses.com/Doubting_Thomas/Doubting_Thomas_

and all of the above is from the Gospel of John!

in matthew, mark, luke, u always have ppl going up to Jesus as a prophet, heck when he entered jerusalem they said he is the prophet messiah, no one ever said here is God!

so i would challenge the statement that ppl used to worship Jesus as God while he was alive, because the Gospel references themselves show otherwise.

Grace Seeker said:

Danah, I notice that you are a Muslim and a woman. Let me ask you: Do you hold those two natures at the same time? Meaning that at a certain you are acting as a Muslim and as a woman?

Yes, from his conception, Jesus held both natures simualtaneously with one another. Prior to his conception the human Jesus did not exist, only the one eternal God who eternal exists in Trinity. But with God's putting on of flesh, his incarnating of himself as one of us, from that time on there has always existed this hypostatic union of the divine and human in which Jesus possessed the two natures in the one person but they were neither comingled. So, his human nature was in no way confused with nor subsumed into the divinity.

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Of Course I am both at the same time, but I don't think that this can serve as an example to clarify that matter.

Say that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) is the god and the human at the same time, how can a God feels hungry? or cry? or be vulnerable to death? or crucifixion? See, I am not looking for a debate here, but I feel its hard to digest such a concept for me.

The "official" language coming out of the Council of Chalcedon where this was discussed at great length was that perfect divinity and perfect humanity are united in Christ "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation.

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but they are totally opposite to each other, I can't put a vulnerable dependent being "human" and a supreme being "God" attached at the same place and same time without confusion !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5ubGQ3IYSw&feature=related

It's a good watch for Christians.

Supreme said:

Salaam!

Are you anatolian from ChristianForums? Hiya, brother!

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Yes same person, hiya friend!

Supreme said:

In response to the question, yes, we believe Jesus is both fully human and fully divine. And no, we don't need to seperate Jesus' humaness from His divinity when we worship Him, because Jesus is not suffering from some sort of multiple personality disorder and there aren't two completely different Jesus'- His human nature is divine, and His divine nature is human, if that makes sense! It's like referring to someone who's black and male as seperate people, merely because they have two different traits that makes them who they are. It's like saying 'Oh, you know Dave?' 'Who, black Dave or the male Dave?' 'Well, both... they're the same person.'

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Well, I know that Christian belief concerning the nature of Jesus. So you have to worship the human along with the God when you worship Jesus just like you have to refer to a black along with a man when you refer to Dave..

Grace Seeker said:

To say that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine is not to create a hyrbrid God-man, nor is it to say that Jesus has a split personality (though, admittedly, sometimes we do when we talk about him). He is just Jesus -- God incarnated among us. When we worship him we are worshipping God, yet I never feel any need to do any mental gymastics to somehow separate his humanity from his divinity.

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It seems a logical conclusion. If you worship Jesus as one being, you worship the human as the God.

The Christians believe that Jesus (PBUH) is an Avatar (god in flesh) of Jehovah. The reason a god appears in the flesh is that the gods power in god form is so intense that the people would be incinerated. Avatar is a Hindi word and in Hindu Avatars are common, maybe there is some relationship there. As Brahma is the God Head in the Hindu religion and all the other gods are manifestations of Brahma and Avatars etc. Maybe thousands of years ago Brahma was the only god worshiped in it's locale eg monotheism, but over time more gods were added and things got more and more fantastic. Maybe Christianity was an early stray from the strict monotheistic Jewish religion. Even Islam has been breaking up into sects and squabbling amongst itself. So who knows?

The_Prince said:

here are your own Gospel sources showing nobody believed Jesus was God or worshipped him, this was during his lifte time:

http://muslim-responses.com/Just_a_Prophet/Just_a_Prophet_
http://muslim-responses.com/The_Blind_Man/The_Blind_Man_
http://muslim-responses.com/Messiah_or_Prophet/Messiah_or_Prophet_
http://muslim-responses.com/Doubting_Thomas/Doubting_Thomas_

and all of the above is from the Gospel of John!

in matthew, mark, luke, u always have ppl going up to Jesus as a prophet, heck when he entered jerusalem they said he is the prophet messiah, no one ever said here is God!

so i would challenge the statement that ppl used to worship Jesus as God while he was alive, because the Gospel references themselves show otherwise.

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Well, I'll just go over the first link. The gentlemen on the Islamic site first says that John the Baptist called Jesus 'The Lamb of God.' The way the gentlemen expressed himself, it impressed upon me that he doesn't know what the title means. Jesus being 'The Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world,' is in reference to what he would have to do on the cross, shedding his blood and paying humanity's sin debt, liberating those who come to him from a life of bondage to sin, and is a picture of the Old Testament covenant whereby lambs blood would be shed, acting as a temporary covering and atonement for their sins. Here's a good couple of scriptures expounding upon that concept:

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53

The Muslim author then says that Jesus is called the son of God and that this does not denote divinity. Well, actually it does. Because Jesus is not a son of God but THE Son of God. There is a difference. In the Old Testament even angels were called 'sons of God' and all those who accept Christ are adopted into the family of God and become 'sons and daughters of the Most High God.'

But Jesus is the Son (capital) of God, existing from eternity to eternity with the Father. And there are scriptures even in the Old Testament that point to Jesus and who he is, such as Psalm 110: 1:

'The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Which Jesus referenced to the Phariesees here:

'Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?> They say unto him, the son of David.

He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.' Matthew 22: 42-46.

The Muslim gentlemen then goes on to say that because the woman at the well perceived Jesus to be a prophet and not God that Jesus wasn't God. The thing is, Jesus was a prophet. But he was--as he himself said--'greater than a prophet.' The site Jews for Jesus is quoted as referring to Jesus as a 'Jewish-God-Man-King' and asks, 'could the Messiah be anyone else.' So Jesus is unique throughout all of human history.

I think I'll stop there. The last two points by the Muslim gentlemen seem to be refreshing over the Jews of the day referring to Jesus as a prophet or just the Messiah.

Danah said:

Of Course I am both at the same time, but I don't think that this can serve as an example to clarify that matter.

Say that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) is the god and the human at the same time, how can a God feels hungry? or cry? or be vulnerable to death? or crucifixion? See, I am not looking for a debate here, but I feel its hard to digest such a concept for me.


but they are totally opposite to each other, I can't put a vulnerable dependent being "human" and a supreme being "God" attached at the same place and same time without confusion !!

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You said that you aren't looking for debate. So, I just want to clariy that I didn't say that it wasn't confusing. Nor can I explain how it was that God was able to make himself incarnate, other than that scripture also says that with God all things are possible. That it is the most humbling event imaginable, actually even beyond human imagination, I completely agree. All I can say is that it is the Christian understanding that it is what was so with respect to Jesus.


The_Prince's post not withstanding, the following are all cases of people recorded as worshipping Jesus: Matthew 2:2, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Matthew 28:17 and John 9:38 during his lifetime. And in John 20:28 his own disciple directly addresses Jesus as nothing less than God. As a Muslim I don't expect you to accept that they were speaking the truth with regard to Jesus. But please don't accept as factual those who can't even take the time to verify a statement such as "nobody believed Jesus was God or worshipped him, this was during his lifte time" without double checking it for themselves. Running a simple word search on www.biblegateway.com was all that was needed to verify or contradict such a statement.

anatolian said:

It seems a logical conclusion. If you worship Jesus as one being, you worship the human as the God.

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I don't deny that if the man Jesus were to be standing in front of me that I would indeed worship him. But I woud not worship him for his human acts, even as meritorious as I understand them to be, I would only worship him because I also believe him to be the God of all the universe, even when he is incarnate in human form.


The Avatar idea spoken of by Karl I don't quite get. But then it is not a word I am familiar with outside of their use on computer screens.