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Rabi Mansur
01-13-2010, 03:25 AM
:sl:

As an innocent bystander I thought I would ask a question for your consideration, i.e., does the Qur'an really state that Jesus (P) was not crucified? I am serious.

When I read Surah 4 in context it seems to me what it is saying is that the Jews did not crucify him (but it was made to seem to them that they did). That is probably a very accurate statement from an historical standpoint.

The Jews have been blamed for his death by many Christians and the Qur'an states that the Jews boasted that they had slain the Christ (4:157). But historians and scholars will tell you that it would actually have to be the Romans who would have crucified him. The Jews didn't crucify.

Reading the Surah in context starting at 4:153 and continuing, the Qur'an goes through a litany of wrongs that the followers of Moses had done. (Breaking their pledge, not accepting God's messengers, slaying the prophets, boasting that they had slain the Messiah.)

The Qur'an then says:"However, they did not slay him, neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them so."

It seems to me, looking at what the Qur'an actually says in context, it is reasonable to conclude that it actually allows for the death and crucifixion of Jesus (P) but that it is telling the reader that it was not done by the Jews, contrary to their boasting. Am I wrong? Is this an acceptable interpretation?

شكرا

:wa:
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جوري
01-13-2010, 07:39 PM
Question and Answer Details Name of Questioner Peris - Peru Title: Jesus Between Islam and Christianity Date 25/Dec/2007 Question I am a Christian and have always wondered about the story of Jesus. My Mum says he died on the cross and then came back to live, which is very confusing. Islam says he never died but was raised up to heaven.

My question is: Did he die or not? Topic Islamic Creed, Interfaith Issues Name of Counselor Shahul Hameed
Answer
Salam, Peris.

Thank you very much for your question.

The Christian belief about Jesus is that he is the only-begotten Son of God or God Himself, who died on the cross to save humans from Original Sin.

Muslims hold that there is no such thing as Original Sin. So, God had no reason to become a human and die on the cross. Even if there were something called Original Sin, Muslims do not see how God could be so helpless as to atone for that sin by dying on the cross.

The Christians would answer:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

Did God really love the world so much… so much that He decided to sacrifice even His son, His only begotten son, to save the world from Original Sin? Christians would say, Yes.

On the other hand, Muslims would insist in the first place, that God is One and One Only, and, therefore, He did not have a son. Second, as God is Just, He would not punish the innocent to save the sinners. Third, the so-called Original Sin cannot be such a problem for the Almighty God that He is compelled to sacrifice "His own Son." He could very well cancel that sin or He could simply demand an atonement from the sinful or at least ask for sincere repentance from them.

Indeed, there was no need for God to subject His Son to the terrible torture he is said to have undergone, as portrayed in Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ, for instance.

In fact, there were early Christians who did not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus. For instance, the Basilidians believed that someone else was crucified in his place. The names of Simon of Cyrene and even Judas Iscariot are heard in this context.

As for the Quran, it speaks of how Allah cleared Jesus of the disbelief of his people. It says what means:

*{[And remember] when Allah said: O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself, and cleanse you of those who disbelieve; and I will make those who follow [you] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to me you will [all] return, and I will judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ. And as for those who disbelieve I will punish them with severe torment in this world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.}* (Aal `Imran 3:55-56)

Thus, Allah raised Jesus up to Heaven, and so he was saved from an accursed death on the cross, in contrast to what his enemies and even his self-styled "followers" alleged.
It was the plan of the enemies of Jesus to crucify him, but Allah foiled their plan. So, to believe in his death by crucifixion means to believe that those unbelievers were successful against God's plan. But assuredly they could not crucify Jesus the Messenger of Allah. The Quran says what means:

*{And their saying [is] 'we slew the Messiah, Jesus Son of Mary, Allah's messenger' – They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them. And those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture. For of a surety they slew him not; but Allah took him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty [and] All-Wise.
And there is none of the people of the Book [the Jews and Christians] but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.}* (An-Nisaa' 4:157-159)

We Muslims believe in all the prophets of God and honor and respect them alike; we do not make any distinction between one and another of them. Muslims believe Jesus Christ to be one of the great prophets of God and hold that all prophets are brothers and that their religion is the same, namely, Islam (or unconditional submission to Allah). Allah says in the Quran what means:

*{He [Allah] has ordained for you the same religion as that which He ordained to Noah, and that which We inspired in you [Muhammad], and that which We ordained to Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and make no divisions therein. To those who worship other things than Allah, dreadful is that to which you call them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He will, and guides to Himself him who turns [in repentance to Him].}* (Az-Zukhruf 42:13)

I hope this answers your question. If you have any more inquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Salam.

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/...AskAboutIslamE

Name of Questioner Chevalnoir - Egypt Title: The Alleged Torture and Crucifixion of Jesus Date 20/Sep/2004 Question

  • Why will Jesus come down to earth again?
  • Was he really crucified and was he really tortured before the crucifixion?

Topic Interfaith Issues Name of Counselor Shahul Hameed
Answer
Salam, Chevalnoir.

Thank you very much for your question.

Muslims believe that before the Last Day, Jesus will return to earth. The meaning of the relevant verse in the Qur’an is as follows:
*{And their saying, “We killed the Messiah, `Isa son of Maryam, Messenger of Allah.” … They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.}* (An-Nisaa’ 4:157-158)
Note that the Arabic word used for “raised up” is rafa`a. In one view, this need not mean a physical lifting up, so the word in this context may refer to the raising of Jesus to a lofty station, as one of the closest to God. That is to say, this does not necessarily mean that Jesus did not die, but only that he was spiritually elevated to a high status in divine presence.

But a careful reading of the above verse should make the following clear:

The Romans and the Jews did not kill Jesus; they did not crucify him; but it appeared so.

The question is: what happened to Jesus, then?

And the answer is “Allah raised him up to Himself.” That is to say, Jesus was physically lifted up and thus was saved from the curse of a death on the cross.

Muslims reject the Christian claim that an innocent Son of God—or God Himself— had to die on the cross to save sinners from punishment. The Qur’an says that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. So he must be alive. Hence it is natural for the Muslims to believe that Jesus will return; and it is noteworthy that the Qur’an and the Hadith support that belief. Here is one hadith:

Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that Allah's Messenger, (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “By the One in Whose hand is my self, definitely the son of Maryam will soon descend among you as a just judge, and he will break the cross, kill the pig, and abolish the jizyah and wealth will be so abundant that no one will accept it, until a single prostration will be better than the world and everything in it” (Al-Bukhari).

The above hadith essentially suggests that Jesus will return as a just judge between truth and falsehood. Breaking the cross, killing the pig, and so on simply mean that he will correct the false doctrines and beliefs spread about him and his teachings among his followers. Consequently many of them will follow him. And thus the followers of Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Jesus (peace and blessings be upon both of them) will be united into one Ummah (nation). This is the purpose of Jesus’ return to earth.

In brief, the Qur’an makes it clear that God saved Jesus from torture and death on the cross, and he will come back to earth as a just ruler. This is quite in keeping with the Biblical reference to Jesus’ prayer to God to save him, as well as to his second coming.

According to the Bible, death by crucifixion is an accursed one; so one cannot imagine a respectable prophet of God being subjected to a death described by the Bible as accursed. All this simply points to the fact that Jesus, who was a prophet of God, was saved by God from the pain of torture and the shame of a death on the cross.

And Allah knows best.

I hope this is informative. Thank you and please keep in touch.

Salam.

Useful Links: Any Proofs for Jesus’ Divinity?
Did Jesus Die to Bring Eternal Life to Man?
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Predator
01-14-2010, 07:23 PM
"When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

(Matthew 27:46): ".. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?"
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-15-2010, 02:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
"When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

(Matthew 27:46): ".. . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

Was this not an insult to Jesus in not having faith in Allah?"
This is such a misunderstood incident -- misunderstand almost as much by Christians as it is by non-Christians. Actually, if you read the source that Jesus was quoting when he said those words, and continue through the whole of the psalm (not just the title phrase) you will see that it was a great statement of faith on Jesus part that he knew he could depend on God to never abandon him.


Psalm 22

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
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جوري
01-15-2010, 09:22 PM
3:55 is what you mean?

It is talking about the 2nd coming.. that he (Jesus) shall die as is the lot of all mankind!
motawfeek (as in the verse) denotes shall cause to die in the future as opposed to tawfytuk which would denote an event that has already occurred!


and Allah swt knows best

:w:
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جوري
01-15-2010, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Assalam aleykoum sister gossamer skye,


I am french, and native arabic but I read and undestand arabic but not perfect.

I can tell you the Quran translated in French has the same mistake, do you have any answer to that ?

I give you another verse :

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. ( S5 V 117)

Its translated take me up if you look at the verse in arabic is TAWAFAYTANY



Can you tell me how its possible such mistake in english and french translation, I will look at spanish one.


Assalam Aleykoum .

:sl:

Have you read the Quran in full?

the verse you speak of has a very key factor.. let's look again:

مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ {117}
إِن تُعَذِّبْهُمْ


goes in concert with

Yes, the Prophet of Allah Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend at the end of time and judge among the people with justice, following the Law of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). He will break the crosses and kill the swine. HE shall put an end to the payment of the jizya. He will only accept Islam from the people. The People of the Book, the Jews and Christians, will all believe in him before his death, after he descends at the end of time. Allah has stated, "There is none of the People of the book but must believe in him (as only a Messenger of Allah) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) will be a witness against them." [an-Nisa, 4:159]

[Pickthal 4:159] There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -



obviously an event that has not taken place yet!

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
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Predator
01-16-2010, 10:17 AM
The People of the Book, the Jews and Christians, will all believe in him before his death, after he descends at the end of time. Allah has stated, "There is none of the People of the book but must believe in him (as only a Messenger of Allah) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) will be a witness against them." [an-Nisa, 4:159]

What about the others like the the Pagan Hindus, Buddhist, Shintos , Sikhs ,Atheist etc, will they continue to remain in their religion

I would think that seeing Jesus coming back to earth , should be enough of a sign form them to follow in the steps of Christians and Jews and embrace Islam
No worries , found it

(Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 37, Battles (Kitab Al-Malahim), Number 4310)"
Narrated AbuHurayrah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist (Dajjal) and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him
.
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desert winds
01-17-2010, 10:28 PM
it wasnt jesus pbuh it was a man who looked like jesus pbuh
Reply

Zico
01-18-2010, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Assalam aleykoum sister Gossamer skye,

I am asking all people of the web site who are native arabic speaker to read :


S 5 V 117

S 3 V 55

Please all of you who read and understand arabic, can you read the two verses above in arabic and read it in english or any translation you have, can you tell me what do you notice ?

Assalam aleykoum peace be upon all of you and all your family, Amine.

I don't know exactly what you mean but in case your wondering,

مَا قُلۡتُ لَهُمۡ إِلَّا مَآ أَمَرۡتَنِى بِهِۦۤ أَنِ ٱعۡبُدُواْ ٱللَّهَ رَبِّى وَرَبَّكُمۡ*ۚ وَكُنتُ عَلَيۡہِمۡ شَہِيدً۬ا مَّا دُمۡتُ فِيہِمۡ*ۖ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيۡتَنِى كُنتَ أَنتَ ٱلرَّقِيبَ عَلَيۡہِمۡ*ۚ وَأَنتَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ شَہِيدٌ 
(5,117)

Dr.Mohsin Translation:

"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world). (117)

Pickthall Translation:

I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things. (117)

Yousef Ali:

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say: to wit, `Worship Allah, my Lord, and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me upThou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things. (117)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّبَعُوكَ فَوۡقَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓاْ إِلَىٰ يَوۡمِ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ*ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَىَّ مَرۡجِعُڪُمۡ فَأَحۡڪُمُ بَيۡنَكُمۡ فِيمَا كُنتُمۡ فِيهِ تَخۡتَلِفُونَ
(3,55)

Dr.Mohsin Translation:

And (remember) when Allâh said: "O 'Īsā (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Īsā (Jesus) is Allâh's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allâh) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allâh, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Īsā (Jesus), Mûsâ (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur'ân] till the Day of Resurrection[]. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute." (55)

Pickthall Translation:

(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55)

Yousef Ali:

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. (55)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I copy/paste it here please bold or delete or whatever the thing I'm missing here. Ty.
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Asiyah3
01-18-2010, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Assalam aleykoum sister gossamer skye,


I am french, and native arabic but I read and undestand arabic but not perfect.

I can tell you the Quran translated in French has the same mistake, do you have any answer to that ?

I give you another verse :

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. ( S5 V 117)

Its translated take me up if you look at the verse in arabic is TAWAFAYTANY



Can you tell me how its possible such mistake in english and french translation, I will look at spanish one.


Assalam Aleykoum .
:sl:

Well in surah 5:117 it says "...But when you took me up..."

In surah 3:55 it Allah SWT says "...And when God said: "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up unto myself. ..."

:wa:
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Asiyah3
01-18-2010, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thetruth2009
Assalam aleykoum Sister,

show the 2 verses ( S5 V 117 and S3 V 55 ) to somebody or read it , Allah SWT is talking about the death of JESUS, even if its in the future why is not well translated ?
:wa: Wr Wb

I've seen the verses in Arabic and English both

Allah SWT is talking about the death of JESUS,
I don't see Allah SWT saying anywhere that Jesus (Pbuh) died/was crucified :/ (in the translation since you refer to it being badly-translated)




even if its in the future why is not well translated ?
Well, did you come up with a better translation for it?

:wa:
Reply

skatteress
01-23-2010, 06:01 PM
*{[And remember] when Allah said: O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself, and cleanse you of those who disbelieve; and I will make those who follow [you] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to me you will [all] return, and I will judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ. And as for those who disbelieve I will punish them with severe torment in this world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.}* (Aal `Imran 3:55-56)

Also... Isa will return.. when the day of jugment is near. he will live in the world and have children.. and the world will be at peace.. he will also kill dajaal..
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