Burka

[Supreme]

Hi

Just wanted to ask:

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?
Why do some women wear the burka?
Do you agree with the Burka?
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?
For the men, would you force your wife to wear one?
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?

Cheers.

[CosmicPathos]

Burka does not have a explicit mention in the Quran. It however follows the principle which says that women should cover up their bosoms and things of beauty.
Some pious Muslimas wear burka because they think that is what Allah (swt) wants of them.
Yes, I agree with the Burka.
I do not care if women from other religions wear it or not.
I would not force my wife to wear burka but I would be saddened if she does not. I would try to convince her from religious evidence that it is obligatory. If she is sincere, Allah might guide her. But to stop this possibility, I will try to marry a person who wears burka from the very first place, will make my job easier. :D
I feel Burka is necessary and hijab does not serve the purpose. Of course, no offense to sisters who think otherwise.

[Raaina]

Hi

Just wanted to ask:

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith? - Nope, the Burka is an Afghan cultural garment. It pre-dates Islam (As far as my knowledge goes).

Why do some women wear the burka? - I don't wear one, so i'm sorry I cannot answer this.

Do you agree with the Burka? - I agree if women choose to wear it, they should be free to.

If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it? As above, if women want to wear it, they should. I wouldn't force anyone to wear the Burka.

For the men, would you force your wife to wear one? N/A
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?N/A

Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available? - The Hijab and Burka are two seperate items of clothing. One is a religious peice the other a cultural piece.

Cheers.

I hope that has helped you a little :statisfie

[Salahudeen]

Yes burka is mentioned in the Qur'an and hadith, not mentioned in Qur'an directly but there's narrations from the companions of the prophet pbuh that when the verse was revealed they took it to mean covering the face also.

However there's difference of opinion on it amongst the scholars, some say it's obligatory some say it's optional but better for a women's piety of she does it. Majority of women follow the opinion that it's optional however some women follow the opinion that it's obligatory upon the women.

I personally agree with the burka cos the prophets wifes RA wore it and it's mentioned in the Qur'an I think that they wore it, however some people say this was only specific to the prophets wifes and not every single women.

I see it as a symbol of islamic identity cos there's many hadith of the prophets wifes and the wifes of the prophets companions wearing it, before Islam came they wouldn't wear it, it was only after Islam came that they began wearing it.

I wouldn't foce my wife to wear 1 however if she wanted to I'd support her in it,

whether the burka is necessary or not depends on which opinion you follow. I'll post all the hadiths for you.

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[CosmicPathos]

I hope that has helped you a little :statisfie

I find it quite funny how burka is considered a cultural thing and hijab is made out to be a religious thing. Sikhs and Hindu women also put hijab on. Its not in their scriptures though, as far as I've studied. And the Saudis have adopted this supposed Afghan cultural garment, eh. I did not know Arabs were under the influence of Pashtuns.

[Salahudeen]

Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) Who was known as the most knowledgeable Sahabi in matters of Shariah. He became Muslim when he was a young kid and ever since that he stayed with Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) and gained the understanding of Quran from him. Umar Ibn Khattab (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) said about him "By Allah, I don't know of any person who is more qualified in the matters dealing with the Quran than Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud"
Explained, the word Jilbaab (as mentioned in the Quran Surah Ahzaab ayah # 59 ) means a cloak which covering the entire body including the head, face and hands. (Quoted from Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimahullah) in his book on fatwaas Page# 110 Vol # 2 and By Shaikh Ibn Uthamin in the book Hijaab Page # 15)

Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha)

Stated that in verse 30 and 31 of Surah An Nur "What has been allowed to be shown is the hands, bangles and rings but the face must be covered.

(Quoted by Shaikh Abdul A'la Maududi in the book Purdah P# 195 and in his Tafseer of Quran under the tafseer of Surah An Nur)


Ubaida bin Abu Sufyan bin al-Harith('Radhiallaahu Ánhu' An' Other well known and knowledgeable Companion of Rasulullah ) Imam Muhammad bin Sirin (Rahimahullah) One of the most knowledgeable tabi'een) said "When I asked Ubaida bin Sufyan bin al-Harith ('Radhiallaahu An') how the jalbaab was to be worn, he demonstrated it to me by pulling a sheet of cloth over his head to cover his entire body, leaving the left eye uncovered. This was also the explanation of the word 'Alaihinna in this verse" (Commentary by Ibn Jarir and Ahkam-ul-Quran, Vol.3, p.457 also in "hijaab wa Safur" quoted by Shaikh AbdulAziz Bin Bazz under the chapter of his fatwaa on hijab on page #54)

Ibn Jarir (Rahimahullah) Quotes the opinion of Ibn Ábbaas (Radhiallaahu Ánhu)
"Allah has enjoined upon all Muslim Women that when they go out of their homes under necessity, they should cover their faces by drawing a part of their outer garments over their heads." (Tafseer Ibn Jarir, VOL 22, pg.29)

The Tabi'ee, Qatadah (Rahimahullah)
Stated that the Jilbab should be wrapped and fixed from above the forehead and made to cover the nose, (although the eyes are to show) and the chest and most of the face are to be covered.

[KittenLover]

I don't understand how people can say the niqaab is not from Islam when many of the prophets companions were of the opinion that it was like Ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn masood to name a few. These companions were there when the Qur'an was revealed and implemented, can we say the same when we make our judgement on it?

Also the prophets wifes wore it, is that not evidence it is from Islam, before Islam they would not wear such clothing untill certain verses of the Qur'an were revealed.

does any 1 remember that stupid so called "imam" on the big question a while back?

[CosmicPathos]

I don't understand how people can say the niqaab is not from Islam when many of the prophets companions were of the opinion that it was like Ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn masood to name a few. These companions were there when the Qur'an was revealed and implemented, can we say the same when we make our judgement on it?

Also the prophets wifes wore it, is that not evidence it is from Islam, before Islam they would not wear such clothing untill certain verses of the Qur'an were revealed.

does any 1 remember that stupid so called "imam" on the big question a while back?

people find pleasure in making new theories up. And call our pious burka wearing sisters culture-worshippers. Regarding hijab, there is also nothing explicity in the Quran which says to "cover you hair." If burka is cultural then hijab is as cultural.

[cat eyes]

:sl:burkas are worn for modesty however sisters also wear other forms of modest clothing such as long dresses and jumpers brother supreme :)

[Salahudeen]

there are two valid view points on the hijab. One view held by the Ullima is that the niqaab (covering the face) is wajib (compulsory) and other Ullima hold the view it is Mustahab (recommended and the best thing to do but not compulsory).

to those people who say things like "The niqaab is not in islam or is not important" or is "bad for dawa" these people should understand that the Niqaab is from the Quraan and Hadith and even if you hold the view of it not being wajib it is still THE BEST thing and recommended and anyone who wears it is to be respected. And if anyone discourages the wearing of Niqaab or denies it being in Islam or makes fun of someone who wears it they should fear ALLAH.

[Asiyaah]

When the soviets moved into central asia and tried to covert the people to communism they focused on the burka. Time and time again the colonizer turn the clothes of colonized women into a political symbol. In my opinion the burka is still a political garment today.

[CosmicPathos]

When the soviets moved into central asia and tried to covert the people to communism they focused on the burka. Time and time again the colonizer turn the clothes of colonized women into a political symbol. In my opinion the burka is still a political garment today.

LOL. Soviets also entered Najd and Hijaz right? Everyone sticks to their theory, no matter how illogical it is. I find this quality of humans quite interesting.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?

yes

Why do some women wear the burka?

because they think its pure awesome, want to emulate the wives of The prophet (pbuh), or just simply their faces to be covered

Do you agree with the Burka?

absolutely...100% though and through

If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?

i guess so

For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?

for women who wear it, it's probably both of those reasons.

Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?

yes...both are good imo


..............
btw the burka its-self is how the afghani women cover their faces and the niqaab is how the arab women cover their faces...

[CosmicPathos]

my mom is not afghani, she still puts on the burka .... are we missing something? And no, she is not influenced by Afghani "culture."

[Supreme]

Thank you all for your responses so far. As anticipated, a mixed bag. I shall be sure to ask and address tomorrow.

[cat eyes]

the sisters who wear the hijabs will be also rewarded in full also. you can not disagree with some scholars either and agree with other scholars because that is also wrong. all of them are people of knowledge and we take all there fatwas in to account. a sister should NOT be forced to wear the niqaab rather she should be kindly encouraged to wear it but we can not force any one and NOT judge them some peoples imans are very strong mashaAllah because they live and breath islam. it is hard and difficult for some people who are living in a non religious envoiroment:wa:

[Raaina]

I find it quite funny how burka is considered a cultural thing and hijab is made out to be a religious thing. Sikhs and Hindu women also put hijab on. Its not in their scriptures though, as far as I've studied. And the Saudis have adopted this supposed Afghan cultural garment, eh. I did not know Arabs were under the influence of Pashtuns.

Well it was originally an Afghan cultural garment, perhaps it's use in Islam is why the Saudis have adopted this to.

[KittenLover]

Well it was originally an Afghan cultural garment, perhaps it's use in Islam is why the Saudis have adopted this to.

jus wondering how far back are you going when you say it was an Afghan cultural garment? are you talking about before revelation came to the prophet peace be upon him? or after he received revelation and became a prophet.

to be more precise are you saying it was an afghan culture garment before the verses in Qur'an were revealed pertaining to it, or after verses of the Qur'an were revealed?

[Raaina]

jus wondering how far back are you going when you say it was an Afghan cultural garment? are you talking about before revelation came to the prophet peace be upon him? or after he received revelation and became a prophet.

to be more precise are you saying it was an afghan culture garment before the verses in Qur'an were revealed pertaining to it, or after verses of the Qur'an were revealed?

:sl: sister,

I believe it was an Afghan culture garment before the verses in the Qu'ran were revealed.

But, thats just my understanding from what i've learnt so far, I could be wrong. :statisfie

[Donia]

Hi

Just wanted to ask:

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?
Why do some women wear the burka?
Do you agree with the Burka?
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?
For the men, would you force your wife to wear one?
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?

Cheers.

I have not seen where the Burka is mentioned specifically in the Quran and I haven't read enough hadiths to confirm or deny if it's specifically in there.
I believe some women wear the burka because they feel they are obligated to.
I think the Burka is fine if one wants to wear it. I actually still think sisters look beautiful wearing their Burkas/Niqabs as odd as that sounds.
I'm not a man. :). There are banks where I live who actually do not allow it to be worn when making transactions in person. This is for security reasons so they can identify who you are. I understand that point as well.
It is necessary for those who want to wear it. In my opinion I believe the hijab is sufficient and if I am wrong, then may Allah forgive me. I have no problem with sisters who wear the Burka or Niqab. They are my sisters in Islam and vice versa. I don't want to get to off topic so I'll just stop there with that.

Good questions.

[CosmicPathos]

:sl: sister,

I believe it was an Afghan culture garment before the verses in the Qu'ran were revealed.

But, thats just my understanding from what i've learnt so far, I could be wrong. :statisfie

I doubt there are any "could've" left in this case. Truth is clear from falsehood. This is an interesting discovery: Burka was first introduced in Afghani culture.

[MSalman]

:sl: sister,

I believe it was an Afghan culture garment before the verses in the Qu'ran were revealed.

But, thats just my understanding from what i've learnt so far, I could be wrong. :statisfie

:wa:
So how did this afghan practice reached the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) and his companions (radiAllahu anhuma)? If a better practice (niqab/burka) already existed what was the point of revealing ayaat to order women to cover themselves (no niqab/burka)?

Sister, may Allah preserve you, silent is gold and it is better to verify religiously stuff with people of knowledge before sharing wrong info and believing in it.

[islamlover_girl]

Thereis two openions about the rule of niqab in Islam,

Question: Assalamu Alaykum. I have a question regarding the daleels for NOT wearing niqab (as refutations for the daleels supporting niqab). ie, what do those who say niqab is not wajib base their opinion on? & what do they think of the early scholars' opinions on the tafaseer as well as ahadith supporting the obligation to cover the face. I have been searching for this & hope u can shed some light of some specific daleels (besides the daleel relating to fatima r.a.). your input is appreciated. Jazak Allah khair

Answer: Sheikh Nasirudeen Al-Albani has written a book entitled "HijabulMaraatilmuslima" answering the challange of Al-Mawdudi in his book Alhijab. Al-Albani goes for no niqab. He refers to the Hadith of Al-Bukhari that tells a youthful female came in Hajj to ask the Prophet a question on Hajj. Al-Fadl the cousin of the Prophet was a young youth. He started looking at that woman and the Prophet was turning his face. The Prophet did not tell that woman to wear a niqab. Had it been obligatory, he would have told her. This is a daleel that a woman can do without a niqab. We advise you to go through these two books as well as Al-Mufassal by Abdul-Karim Zaidan.

Question: A number of scholars, Maududi included, have claimed that Neqab is a requirement for Muslim women. What do you think and is there any book that discusses this issue and clarifies the position of Islam, by discussing the evidence the proponents of Neqab present?

Answer: A fard or haram should not be of controversial issues in the principles of thought or the rules of shari'a. A great many scholars have elaobrated on this statement, including whom who emphaiszed this the most are Malik, Abu Hanifah, Ahmed and Ash-Shafi'i. This is why Al-Imam Ahmed, in many questions he sued to answer makruh instead of saying haram.

We see that there are two major thoughts concerning niqab. For example, Maududi's book "Al-Hijab," is supportive to the niqab. That book is versus to Al-Albani's "Hijjab ul-Marratil Muslimah," which advocates the opinion of no niqab, referring to authentic narrations of Al-Bukhari when a youthful, attractive female asked the Prophet (SAAWS) a question on Hajj, she was uncovering her face. Al-Fadhil ibn Abbas, his (SAAWS) cousin started looking at her but the Prophet (SAAWS) was turning his head from that gaze. Had uncovering the face been haram, the Prophet (SAAWS) would have told her that she should wear a niqab, but he didn't do that. If I say anything next to that exposure of opinions and studies, I cannot believe that there is room for a clear-cut answer to say niqab is fard or uncovering the face is haram. I'm not goping to object to any woman if she prefers niqab nor am I objecting any man if he wants to cover his face. This is personal business and everyone should feel that they have the option in the arena of what is halal.

Question: As-Salamu `alaykum. I was watching a TV program that broadcasts some court cases. When I tuned to this channel, it was about a Muslim woman who is suing the State of Florida's Vehicle and License Department because it asked her to remove her face veil (niqab) so that an ID photo can be taken. One of the Muslim leaders in that state was on the cross-examination and argued that the woman can remove her niqab only in case of death!

What would you say to Muslim women who live in the West generally and in the US particularly about the issue of niqab? Is it so difficult to remove the niqab that she must file a case against the State, which doesn't even require her to uncover her hair, as some states do require for the drivers' license?

Answer: Dear brother, we commend your eagerness to become well acquainted with the teachings of Islam, which is the way Allah has chosen for the welfare of His servants.

As for your question, bear in mind that the majority of Imams — including those of the four schools of fiqh as well as others — hold the opinion that a woman is not obliged to cover her face and hands. However, a group of scholars, the majority of whom belong to the Hanbali School, teach that a woman must cover her face and hands as well.

It goes without saying that Muslims precede others in keeping the public interest and security of the nation. Therefore, if the law governing a given country requires uncovering the face of the woman for genuine reasons, such as identification, the Muslim woman, like all other women, abides by the law.

In response to your question, the prominent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi, Imam of Calgary Mosque, Alberta, Canada, and Former Professor at King Saud University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, states:

“The issue of niqab (covering the whole body including the face and hands) is a basic condition of hijab (Muslim woman’s dress) in one school of fiqh, while it is recommended part of hijab in other schools. But what is agreed upon in all schools is to remove the niqab[i.e., to uncover the face]) for some genuine reasons such as identification or medical purpose.

The case you mentioned may be a reason to remove the niqab if the police officer is in need to do so, and there is a legal requirement by the law to show the face, regardless of the faith and this applies to all faiths.

However, this should not be a way of discrimination against a veiled woman just to tease her. Therefore, the sister has to insist on her right to use niqab and fight for this right IF she is targeted for discrimination and the law does not require showing the face.”

Dr. Rif`at Fawzi, professor of Shari`ah at Cairo University, adds:

“It is permissible, as far as Shari`ah is concerned, to remove the niqab (face cover) for some genuine reasons such as identification or to get a photo for ID or driving license.

Therefore, if a Muslim woman is asked to remove the face cover to get a photo for such genuine reasons, then she is permitted to do so and Almighty Allah will forgive such matters. Added to that, she will keep the photo and such matters are pardoned for the facilitation of the affairs of people.”

Question: Will I be harming the image of Islam if I wear the niqab? I have done a great deal of research and I have found that a number of scholars state it is mustahab. I understand completely that it is not fard but wish to take this step, seeking to please Allah. I am facing a lot of opposition as I live in a Western country. Please advise.

Answer: In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

"Indeed, living in a Western country is a good chance to help you give others a good idea about Islam. Wearing niqab is good in some aspects, but it gives wrong message to women in the West and wearing it makes them feel that Islam is very difficult to practice as lots of them think that it is very difficult to change from the American or Bristish life styles and wear the niqab.

Having said this, I advise Muslim sisters living in Western societies to wear clothes that are acceptable in the environment where they live, but those clothes should not give wrong message to the Westerners about Islam. Those clothes should symbolize modesty and respect for our women according to the teachings of Islam."

Question: I am a woman who wears niqab in Australia. I am having second thoughts about keeping it on because I feel that it has a negative da`wah towards my family and a bit towards my husbands family. I also think that if I did take it off I would do more da`wah towards my family who are misguided. It will lessoen the hate towards becoming Muslim and warm my mothers heart and other relatives hearts toward Islam.

I have looked into the issue of niqab and if it's Sunnah or fard; and I feel itss more Sunnah than fard. The thing is that my husband doesn't want me to take it off because he is a jealous man. How can I get through to him that maybe it's better for me to take it off to do more da`wah to my family and also to those around me? I feel that the niqab forms a barrier to giving da`wah in the west. Is it better to take off niqab in these western countries if one believes it's Sunnah?

Answer: As salamu `alaykum. I an not a supporter of niqab and find it a complete turn off in terms of communicating with people. To me it says 'Stay Away' - I do not wish to acknowledge or have dialogue with you - please do not invade my space'.

My feeling is that when I awake every day I think to myself what can I do today to address the misunderstandings about Islam - How can I make someone more aware about Islam - what can my presence in this world on this day do to influence someone positively about Islam and I go about my work with the help of Allah. Niqab will not allow me to do this and as far as your husband is concerned - let him get over himself - the situation with Islam in the world today is far too important compared with petty jealousy. Wa salam

Question: Question If a husband asks the wife to wear niqab in the west, is she obliged to obey him and wear it? If she doesn't accept it, will Allah be disappointed with her?

Answer: In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

It is not obligatory in Islam for a woman to wear niqab (face veil); Hijab, however, is obligatory. Since Allah did not mandate niqab, you have no right to force your wife to cover her face.

Furthermore, by this kind of approach you are being unwise and harsh; that will only help to drive her away from Islam. In this time and age of ours, it is absolutely necessary for us to understand the pressures on us, and present the compassionate and leniency of Islam. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Present Islam as it really is: simple and easy" and "You have been sent to bring good news, rather than doom!"

Therefore, be gentle and treat your wife compassionately.

source http://www.islamawareness.net/Hijab/...questions.html

[aamirsaab]

Hi

Just wanted to ask:
...
Do you agree with the Burka?

Yes. If people want to wear it, they should be allowed. We live in the 20th century, We are living in a time of freedom where people are allowed to say and do anything they want: homosexual relationships, gambling, alcohol, adultery ---> all allowed. So what's wrong with a bloody veil?!

If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?

They can wear it if they want to. I have no problem with it: It's a piece of cloth wrapped around someone's face!

For the men, would you force your wife to wear one?

No. If she chooses to wear it, I have no problem. If she doesn't want to wear it, I have no problem.

[Raaina]

:wa:
So how did this afghan practice reached the Prophet (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) and his companions (radiAllahu anhuma)? If a better practice (niqab/burka) already existed what was the point of revealing ayaat to order women to cover themselves (no niqab/burka)?

Sister, may Allah preserve you, silent is gold and it is better to verify religiously stuff with people of knowledge before sharing wrong info and believing in it.

Look I just gave my opinion on the subject. If it's incorrect, then there is nothing wrong with that is there? I'm sure you've been mis informed on things before, or perhaps you are perfect and never make a mistake?

Edited to say: I think you will find, this is why country's like France are banning the burka, because they know it isn't a religious item, so banning it won't be breaking the law on religious terms.

[Uthman]

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...v-fiction.html

There is a very small difference between the Burqa and the Niqab which I believe is to do with covering the eyes.

[Raaina]

I doubt there are any "could've" left in this case. Truth is clear from falsehood. This is an interesting discovery: Burka was first introduced in Afghani culture.

Ok so maybe it was first found in Arabian peninsula and not Afghanistan, but the point still remains, it's not found in the qu'ran.

I have no problem being corrected if I have incorrect information, but perhaps you could just point that out instead of making sarcastic remarks at my posts. :hmm:

[Malaikah]

The Quran doesn't tell us to cover our hair either... niqaab is a part of Islam, that is an undeniable fact. It is only whether it is obligatory or not that is debatable.

[Salahudeen]

Ok so maybe it was first found in Arabian peninsula and not Afghanistan, but the point still remains, it's not found in the qu'ran.

I have no problem being corrected if I have incorrect information, but perhaps you could just point that out instead of making sarcastic remarks at my posts. :hmm:

please don't get offended or upset sis, just think of it as discussion, even I've said the wrongs before and people have told me that my information is incorrect. it's part of being human.

But as for your statement that it's not mentioned in the Qur'an neither is the command to wear the heard scarf, the word used refers to covering. Some people take it to mean only covering the head and wearing tight jeans underneath which is clearly wrong and not valid.

the hijaab should cover all the womens adornments not just her hair, there's a difference of opinion about whether the niqaab is obligatory or not, some scholars say the hijaab should cover everything except face and hands other scholars say the hijaab should cover even the face.

If I'm not mistaken hijaab refers to total covering not head scarf. so those women who are wearing head scarfs and working round exposing their bodies in actual fact aren't wearing hijaab, they're simply wearing a head scarf.

hijaab means full body covering.

however there is no difference of opinion that it is from Islam and not an afghani culture. And this is supported by many hadith.

and it's strange that many countries around the world decide to adopt something from the afghani culture like pakistan, saudi, and many other Muslim countries contain niqaab wearing sisters.

Did they all decide to copy the afghan culture in this specific area? obviously not, they're acting upon hadith that supports the wearing of niqaab.

again, there's no dispute about the niqaab being from Islam and not an afghani culture, the dispute is whether or not it's obligatory.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.

it doesn't say it directly in the Qur'an but when the verse was revealed in the above mentioned hadith the believing women took it to mean that the hijaab extends to covering the face also.

but whether or not it's obligatory is a difference of opinion.

[Salahudeen]

Look I just gave my opinion on the subject. If it's incorrect, then there is nothing wrong with that is there? I'm sure you've been mis informed on things before, or perhaps you are perfect and never make a mistake?

Edited to say: I think you will find, this is why country's like France are banning the burka, because they know it isn't a religious item, so banning it won't be breaking the law on religious terms.

with respect my dear sis it is not France who decide what is from our religion and what isn't, they didn't study Qur'an, hadith, and tafseer.

it is the scholars and 'ulema who decide what is from our religion based upon the divine text and the interpretation of that divine text according to companions of the prophet pbuh. And hadiths are also used as evidence for what is from our religion.

and they are upon agreement that the niqaab is a religious item based upon much evidence in the hadith.

France may deem it to not be a religious item and not from Islam however if many of the sahabba (companions) were here today they would strongly disagree and tell you "it is from Islam. And that is why our wifes wear it".

^ I say that cos we have narrations from them stating it to be from the religion of Islam just like the head scarf is from the religion.

[zakirs]

Erm salaam ,

Regarding origins of burqa .. ( note: people don't get emotional and gang up others when you haven't done research yourselves , in short moon sis was partially right. ) ..

This type of dress has its origins with desert times long before Islam arrived. It had two functions. Firstly as a sand mask in windy conditions. This would be worn by men and women and is still common today. For women only the masking of the face and body was used when one group was being raided by another. These raids often involved the taking of women of child bearing age. With all women hidden behind a veil the chances of being taken were substantially reduced as the women of child bearing age could not be quickly distinguished from the very young and the old in the turmoil of fighting.[citation needed]

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam); the burqa is not specifically mentioned in the Quran.[2]

references : http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html
http://middleeasternaffairs.suite101...qa_controversy


People who saw nomadic tribes in araba ( in ngc or discovery ) also know that this is the usual garment they wear.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


The fact is that niyat ( intention ) differs when you wear it as an cultural garment and when you wear it for imaan.

I agree with people who wear burqa and i cannot comment on its rulings or if its compulsary as i believe i am not knowledgable enough yet to go into fiqh issues.

[Salahudeen]

^exactly some scholars interpret hijaab to cover the face, others interpret it to cover everything except the face and hands. None of them say the niqaab isn't from Islam or has no basis in Islam as it's a tradition of a particular country. another hadith

Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4090
Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha): When the verse "That they should cast their outer garments over their persons" was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.

Imaam Malik's MUWATTA Book 20 Hadith # 20.5.16
Yahya related to me from Malik from Hisham ibn Urwa that Fatima bint al-Mundhir (Radhiallaahu Ánha) said, "We used to veil our faces when we were in Ihram in the company of Asma bint Abi Bakr As-Siddiq (Radhiallaahu Ánha). "This again proves that not only the wives of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) wore the Niqaab and that even though in Ihram women are not supposed to wear Niqaab but if men are there they still have to cover the face.


Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Hadith # 715
Narrated 'Ikrima (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) narrates "Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil." It is a very long hadith but the point is the women of Sahaba wore the full veil.

[CosmicPathos]

Ok so maybe it was first found in Arabian peninsula and not Afghanistan, but the point still remains, it's not found in the qu'ran.

I have no problem being corrected if I have incorrect information, but perhaps you could just point that out instead of making sarcastic remarks at my posts. :hmm:

You have been corrected several times. The ruling for covering the hair is also not found in Quran.

You found my comment sarcastic? Why is that? I merely restated your assertion. Maybe the ridiculousness of your claim is also now apparent to you? subhanAllah.

You are mocking our sisters in the West who choose to wear Niqab/Burka. You are telling non-Muslims by your views that niqab/burkaw worn by these sisters is for cultural reasons and not religious. This is what mockery is. Colossal mockery.

Your comments that burka is afghani in origin are invalid even from a cultural anthropological point of view.

[CosmicPathos]

Erm salaam ,

Regarding origins of burqa .. ( note: people don't get emotional and gang up others when you haven't done research yourselves , in short moon sis was partially right. ) ..



references : http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html
http://middleeasternaffairs.suite101...qa_controversy


People who saw nomadic tribes in araba ( in ngc or discovery ) also know that this is the usual garment they wear.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


The fact is that niyat ( intention ) differs when you wear it as an cultural garment and when you wear it for imaan.

I agree with people who wear burqa and i cannot comment on its rulings or if its compulsary as i believe i am not knowledgable enough yet to go into fiqh issues.

Many things that are obligatory in Sharia were practiced before Islam. Just because they were in pre-Islamic, it does not mean it is cultural. For example, a Hindu who converts to Islam, he might find wearing one's trousers above the ankle as a cultural thing rather than religious because maybe in Hindu culture wearing trousers below ankles does not mean one is trying to be proud or arrogant.

[zakirs]

Many things that are obligatory in Sharia were practiced before Islam. Just because they were in pre-Islamic, it does not mean it is cultural. For example, a Hindu who converts to Islam, he might find wearing one's trousers above the ankle as a cultural thing rather than religious because maybe in Hindu culture wearing trousers below ankles does not mean one is trying to be proud or arrogant.

:sl:

I completely accept your point. I am not saying its cultural but some people are outrightly arguing others point without giving thought on what was said, i feel is wrong. anyway my post only talks about its origins.

:)

[cat eyes]

You have been corrected several times. The ruling for covering the hair is also not found in Quran.

You found my comment sarcastic? Why is that? I merely restated your assertion. Maybe the ridiculousness of your claim is also now apparent to you? subhanAllah.

You are mocking our sisters in the West who choose to wear Niqab/Burka. You are telling non-Muslims by your views that niqab/burkaw worn by these sisters is for cultural reasons and not religious. This is what mockery is. Colossal mockery.

Your comments that burka is afghani in origin are invalid even from a cultural anthropological point of view.

:sl: maybe we should correct the sister in a more kinder fashion don't you think brother like what we were thought by the prophet (saw).:) she is just a revert to islam and when i first reverted i heard all sorts of things to.. people make mistakes and everybody else please be more gentle on her for the sake of Allah.

[Salahudeen]

yes please remember, sis is new to Islam so we shouldn't jump down her throat when she says something incorrect or jump down anyones throat, just kindly tell her that it's not correct.

I apologise sis moon if I upset you in any way. or was offensive.

[CosmicPathos]

:sl: maybe we should correct the sister in a more kinder fashion don't you think brother like what we were thought by the prophet (saw).:) she is just a revert to islam and when i first reverted i heard all sorts of things to.. people make mistakes and everybody else please be more gentle on her for the sake of Allah.

:wa:

I agree. Emotions must never be a part of dawah. But if you please look at the whole thread, evidence upon evidence has been given suggesting that burka/niqab is not cultural. She still just want to stick to her opinion. I do not mind that. But she is effectively saying that Burka/Niqab is cultural, I feel this is insult to niqab/burka wearing sisters, especially my mom as well! :( And I realize that wearing only hijab is also opinion of scholars, but I have not "insulted" her by saying that no, you are a liberal cultural Muslim or something like that.

Kher, may Allah manifest the Truth from whosever mouth it is.

[cat eyes]

:wa:

I agree. Emotions must never be a part of dawah. But if you please look at the whole thread, evidence upon evidence has been given suggesting that burka/niqab is not cultural. She still just want to stick to her opinion. I do not mind that. But she is effectively saying that Burka/Niqab is cultural, I feel this is insult to niqab/burka wearing sisters, especially my mom as well! :(

Kher, may Allah manifest the Truth from whosever mouth it is.

i know how you feel bro but we must melt there hearts with kindness until they will listen even Allah says this and surely Allah knows best and believe me it dose work then you will get rewarded by Allah for giving dawah especially to revert imagine :) you have to understand that when a person reverts to islam they know very little and they always get told the wrong things first or they go on to some corrupted website believing that this is true and things like this so we have to take all of this in to consideration.

[sevgi]

There are four ayahs in the quran which mention 'covering' for women.

Neither of these directly use the terms hijab, niqab or any other terms we use today.

Id love to get into a nitty gritty word for word ayah exploration here but I really havent got the time.

One thing is certain in Islam and the religions which came before Islam. Covering up womens adornments and dressing modestly is a certainty in Islam.

Now what is the difference between a hijab and a niqab. A hijab covers the all parts of the body besides the face, hands and according to some madhabs, the feet. The nijab covers all of the woman except her eyes...for some women, even the eyes.

Which is correct? I do not feel at all comfortable giving my opinion when Allah and our prophet and greater men before me have commented on this matter. However, Islam is a religion of logic and reason. Therefore, I would like to promote that both are equally correct.

That is, the hijab is clearly prescribed in the quran. The four madhabs have clearly prescribed the method of covering regarding the hijab. Given that Islam is supposed to be a universal religion, all women are able to and should be covering in this prescribed way. That is, the hijab is the lowest level or standard of covering for women.

The niqab does have a place in Islam. The wives of our prophet wore it. But one thing must be made clear. Women back then, leading from judaism, would wear head and hair covering garments. Therefore, when the ayah came down, it read: "...cover your bosoms..." This ayah was guidance for the women to extend their already covered hair to their bosoms also. In the quran, our prophet is told to tell his wives and the women of islam to cover in a manner in which they "cannot be recognised". Scholars have argued that this is because women of islam, especially our prophets wives, were target for non muslim thugs at the time and therefore this ayah is contextual.

So considering the past, the niqab is a very valid mode of dressing in Islam. It is not prescribed by the quran or our prophet for a universal audience directly, however, covering is about modesty. Hence, I believe that all women need to guage the universality of their mode of dressing. I believe if that by the grace of Allah the world were to become Muslim overnight, many cultures would not be able to find logic in this practice. I think that all women, given that hijab is the lowest form of covering, need to gauge the level of modesty they can adopt to given their context. I like to call this 'contextual modesty'.

My boss at work is an educated woman who wears the niqab. She has a few setbacks, but is confident enough to go on with it. May Allah increase her faith. I cannot disagree with the niqab as it does have a place in Islam...cultural, political, historical or social...it doesnt matter. It is valid and is actually a very very personal (yet very social) thing. If a woman feels she is able to wear the niqab, feels deeply for it and feels that this is the way it is to be, then we, as muslims, need to respect that. Because if we dont respect these muslim sisters, we cant expect anyone else to. Likewise, sisters who wear the niqab need to respect sisters who wear the hijab keeping in mind that hijab is the prescribed form of covering and these sisters should not feel a sense of pride for having 'greater levels of iman' than sisters who wear hijab...that is one battle won and another battle lost with the nafs.

Peace.

[CosmicPathos]

There are four ayahs in the quran which mention 'covering' for women.

Neither of these directly use the terms hijab, niqab or any other terms we use today.

Id love to get into a nitty gritty word for word ayah exploration here but I really havent got the time.

One thing is certain in Islam and the religions which came before Islam. Covering up womens adornments and dressing modestly is a certainty in Islam.

Now what is the difference between a hijab and a niqab. A hijab covers the all parts of the body besides the face, hands and according to some madhabs, the feet. The nijab covers all of the woman except her eyes...for some women, even the eyes.

Which is correct? I do not feel at all comfortable giving my opinion when Allah and our prophet and greater men before me have commented on this matter. However, Islam is a religion of logic and reason. Therefore, I would like to promote that both are equally correct.

That is, the hijab is clearly prescribed in the quran. The four madhabs have clearly prescribed the method of covering regarding the hijab. Given that Islam is supposed to be a universal religion, all women are able to and should be covering in this prescribed way. That is, the hijab is the lowest level or standard of covering for women.

The niqab does have a place in Islam. The wives of our prophet wore it. But one thing must be made clear. Women back then, leading from judaism, would wear head and hair covering garments. Therefore, when the ayah came down, it read: "...cover your bosoms..." This ayah was guidance for the women to extend their already covered hair to their bosoms also. In the quran, our prophet is told to tell his wives and the women of islam to cover in a manner in which they "cannot be recognised". Scholars have argued that this is because women of islam, especially our prophets wives, were target for non muslim thugs at the time and therefore this ayah is contextual.

So considering the past, the niqab is a very valid mode of dressing in Islam. It is not prescribed by the quran or our prophet for a universal audience directly, however, covering is about modesty. Hence, I believe that all women need to guage the universality of their mode of dressing. I believe if that by the grace of Allah the world were to become Muslim overnight, many cultures would not be able to find logic in this practice. I think that all women, given that hijab is the lowest form of covering, need to gauge the level of modesty they can adopt to given their context. I like to call this 'contextual modesty'.

My boss at work is an educated woman who wears the niqab. She has a few setbacks, but is confident enough to go on with it. May Allah increase her faith. I cannot disagree with the niqab as it does have a place in Islam...cultural, political, historical or social...it doesnt matter. It is valid and is actually a very very personal (yet very social) thing. If a woman feels she is able to wear the niqab, feels deeply for it and feels that this is the way it is to be, then we, as muslims, need to respect that. Because if we dont respect these muslim sisters, we cant expect anyone else to. Likewise, sisters who wear the niqab need to respect sisters who wear the hijab keeping in mind that hijab is the prescribed form of covering and these sisters should not feel a sense of pride for having 'greater levels of iman' than sisters who wear hijab...that is one battle won and another battle lost with the nafs.

Peace.

This is a very comprehensive reply.

@ Mystical Moon: Sister, I apologize if I unknowingly hurt you. Please study this matter of Afghani origins of Burka/Niqab in more detail with an unbiased approach.

[Asiyah3]

Hi

Just wanted to ask:

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?
Why do some women wear the burka?
Do you agree with the Burka?
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?
For the men, would you force your wife to wear one?
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?

Cheers.

I don't know whether specifically burka is mentioned in the Qur'aan/hadith, but we are commanded to cover (except hands and face can be revealed) ourselves modestly.

Yes I do agree with the Burka. I admire women who wear it so much. May Allah reward them :statisfie

I think that non-muslims should also wear it eapecially Christians and Jews. I don't really know much about Jews, but as far as I know covering the hair is also Commanded in the Bible though I don't expect the modern Christians to follow it since they seem to follow their desires and opinions rather than the Creator's commandments

I'm not a man but I know lots of women and none of them have been forced to wear it. Allah SWT by His wisdom has showed us the Wisdom behind it.

I don't wear it but if I would start to cover my face in the future -Insha'lLah- I will wear it for the sake of Allah SWT and also coz' I love dressing islamically but I'm so grateful for this wise command! May He be glorified :)

[ardianto]

:sl:

We cannot say "in Islam, wear burka is obligatory", also we cannot say "in Islam, wear burka is not obligatory", because Ulama are not in one stance about awrah.

There are Ulama who say woman's face is awrah. According to these Ulama, wear burka or niqab is obligatory.

And there are Ulama who say woman's face is not awrah. According to these Ulama, wear hijab/jilbab is enough.

Both parties have strong daleel and arguments. You can read it in books or in web. It's too long if I must write it in this post.

[ardianto]

Assalam aleykoum brother,


I brought verses above, about muslim women have to dress.

You are talking about OULEMA, I am talking about what Allah SWT says in the Quran.

Can you tell me where do you see that women have to wear Burka ????


Thank you for your reply brother,


Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.

Assalamualaikum, brother.

Covering awrah is obligated. But there are two opinions about woman's face.
First, woman's face is awrah, and women are obligated to cover their faces.
Second, woman's face is not awrah, and women are allowed to show their faces but must cover their hairs with hijab/jilbab.

These two opinions are exists and supported by Ulama.

I am living in Indonesia. Of course I never see women who wear burka except in photos. But some women in my country wear Saudi style Niqab, or local style Muslimah dress with "cadar" that cover their faces. Brother, Burka is Afghani style Muslimah dress.

[sevgi]

I am very intrguied about the few refernces to the burqa having stemmed from 'Afghans'. Can anyone tell me where they have acquired this belief from?

[ardianto]

I am very intrguied about the few refernces to the burqa having stemmed from 'Afghans'. Can anyone tell me where they have acquired this belief from?

Simple. Except in Afghanistan and some part of Pakistan, Muslimah in other places wear not burqa.

Every ethnic have their own typical clothes that different than other ethnics.

[KittenLover]

Simple. Except in Afghanistan and some part of Pakistan, Muslimah in other places wear not burqa.

Every ethnic have their own typical clothes that different than other ethnics.

Somalians were niqaab also and the saudi women and I know Indonesian women wear it also, and Moroccan women and egpytatian women and in maylasia

[CosmicPathos]

it seems the confusion is on Burka vs Abaya? To me they are the same, the only difference is in design and color. Saudi women dont wear blue Abaya while Afghani women wear Blue "parachute-like," as the haters like to say, Abaya.

[CosmicPathos]

:wa:

Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers,


I read the Quran many times and I have never seen Allah SWT saying that women have to wear the BURKA or NIKAB.

You have to make difference betwenn wives of our prophete Mohamed SWS and muslim women in general.

Its not because some women in islamic country some women wear it that is a law of Allah SWT, its an invention from where I do not know.

I am French and the French government ban it.


Assalam aleykoum sisters and brothers.

:wa:

I have read Quran many times too and I have seen no where Allah's command to wear hijab. From Quranic perspective alone, even covering the hair is not required. I also have seen no where Allah's command to put my trousers above my ankles, its just Arab culture if I want to be harsh. But since Prophet has said so, his words are also the reflection of Allah's commands. What his wives do, they are also a command from him to his wives.

Wallahu Aalam.
:wa:

[Supreme]

Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it. But it is part of Islamic culture.

Next question. I'll put this as politely as possible. Do you not think that the Burka is a

sexist

garment and is actually harsh on women's rights?

[MSalman]

@supreme

Is there a difference between Islamic culture and Islam? No, it is not safe to conclude that niqab is not integral part of Islam. The reason why people have differed in this thread is because many are speaking without knowledge and out of their place.

No, Burka is not sexist and nor it is harsh on women's rights. I am sure you have pictures of Marry (peace be upon her) in your house and she is covered. Do you think her covering is sexist and it is being harsh on her rights?

Why would anyone even reach the conclusion that Burka is sexist? Who decides which garment is ok for people? I mean seriously, there is a difference between what men and women wear. So on what basis one says that wearing this or that sort of clothing is sexist. When your people go on beach and women are wearing bikinis while men are wearing shorts - the below garment of women is shorter then men's; so, do you think men's clothing is sexist? When in offices men wear pants whereas women can wear short skirts, then is men's clothing sexist? When in public men can display their chest but women cannot, is women's clothing sexist?

@mystical_moon

as-salamu alaykum

sister, may Allah preserve you, my comments didn't meant to hurt your feelings. Please forgive me for Allah if my comments were harsh. I was simply correcting & advising you and I didn't say that I am perfect. It is very important that we remain silent about issues for which we have knowledge. This is our deen we are talking about

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it. But it is part of Islamic culture.

I think there has been quite a bit of confusion here over terminology, as different languages sometimes use different names for different types of garments. I assume this thread is about the cloak that Muslim women draw over their bodies. I'm not sure where you drew your conclusion from, but if something has been commanded in the Qur'an and Sunnah, then it is undoubtedly an integral part of Islam.

...It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) used to say: When these words were revealed – “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)”– they took their izaars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4481. The following version was narrated by Abu Dawood (4102):

May Allaah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allaah revealed the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)”, they tore the thickest of their aprons (a kind of garment) and covered their faces with them.

Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

This hadeeth clearly states that what the Sahaabi women mentioned here understood from this verse – “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – was that they were to cover their faces, and that they tore their garments and covered their faces with them, in obedience to the command of Allaah in the verse where He said “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” which meant covering their faces. Thus the fair-minded person will understand that woman’s observing hijab and covering her face in front of men is established in the saheeh [authentic] Sunnah that explains the Book of Allaah. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) praised those women for hastening to follow the command of Allaah given in His Book. It is known that their understanding of the words “and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” as meaning covering the face came from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because he was there and they asked him about everything that they did not understand about their religion.

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13998/hijab

Next question. I'll put this as politely as possible. Do you not think that the Burka is a garment and is actually harsh on women's rights?

I'll also try to be as polite as possible. Don't you think that the exploitation of naked women or those walking scantily dressed is being harsh on their rights?

[Supreme]

I think there has been quite a bit of confusion here over terminology, as different languages sometimes use different names for different types of garments. I assume this thread is about the cloak that Muslim women draw over their bodies. I'm not sure where you drew your conclusion from, but if something has been commanded in the Qur'an and Sunnah, then it is undoubtedly an integral part of Islam.

We are talking about the Burka, not hijab. The outfit that covers everything but the eyes. I have two questions with regard to this:

1) The Burka is mentioned explictely in the Hadith (thanks for the link BTW), but if I'm not mistaken, the Hadith is the words of the prophet Muhammed, not God. Therefore, is it safe to assume it is not an integral part of Islam, and not as important as, say, the Five Pillars?
2) Seeing as the Grand Mosque is not segregated, how is it women can get away with not wearing the Burka in Islam's holiest site?

I'll also try to be as polite as possible. Don't you think that the exploitation of naked women or those walking scantily dressed is being harsh on their rights?

Before I address your questions, I actually do have one for you:

As a man, do you feel that it is necessary for you to hide your complete body under billowy clothes, and to cover your hair so that it cannot be seen in public?
Why, or rather: why not? Think about the answer, and you might actually experience some revealing thoughts.

Now, let's tackle your questions: in case the pondering of my question above hasn't granted you a certain epiphany, let me spell it out for you...

We're not faced with the dichotomy of public lingerie "malfunctions" vs. the burkha. There is MUCH space to be covered between those extremes. But the thing is: the men who believe it should be necessary for women to hide even their faces view them as sex objects, they just think that *access* to these objects should be more restricted.

No, Burka is not sexist and nor it is harsh on women's rights. I am sure you have pictures of Marry (peace be upon her) in your house and she is covered. Do you think her covering is sexist and it is being harsh on her rights?

Even though I don't have any pictures of Mary, the covering she is wearing can only be comparable to the hijab, not the Burka.

Is there a difference between Islamic culture and Islam? No, it is not safe to conclude that niqab is not integral part of Islam. The reason why people have differed in this thread is because many are speaking without knowledge and out of their place.

In your opinion, are Muslim women who choose not to wear the Burka worse Muslims than those who choose not to?

[Muhammad]

Greetings Supreme,

We are talking about the Burka, not hijab. The outfit that covers everything but the eyes.

Hijab is often used as a general term to refer to the covering a Muslim woman must wear in the presence of (marriageable) men. So a Burka can be considered Hijab.

1) The Burka is mentioned explictely in the Hadith (thanks for the link BTW), but if I'm not mistaken, the Hadith is the words of the prophet Muhammed, not God. Therefore, is it safe to assume it is not an integral part of Islam, and not as important as, say, the Five Pillars?

No, there's a big misunderstanding here. The Hadeeth are to be taken together with the Qur'an in understanding any issue - both were inspired by Allaah (swt). So we have to obey whatever has been commanded in the Qur'an and Hadeeth. Feel free to browse our Hadeeth section for further information - here's a thread that might be relevant: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...on-sunnah.html

2) Seeing as the Grand Mosque is not segregated, how is it women can get away with not wearing the Burka in Islam's holiest site?

It is segregated when it comes to prayer. Which women have you seen there who are not weaking a Burka?

As a man, do you feel that it is necessary for you to hide your complete body under billowy clothes, and to cover your hair so that it cannot be seen in public?

Why, or rather: why not? Think about the answer, and you might actually experience some revealing thoughts.

Islam teaches us to dress modestly, so even men should not wear tight clothing that exposes their private parts. In short, there are guidelines for the dress code for both men and women, and we accept whatever God has commanded in this regard, and in His commands there is always wisdom and justice. It isn't a matter of what we "feel" is necessary, rather the first and foremost thing is obedience.

We're not faced with the dichotomy of public lingerie "malfunctions" vs. the burkha. There is MUCH space to be covered between those extremes. But the thing is: the men who believe it should be necessary for women to hide even their faces view them as sex objects, they just think that *access* to these objects should be more restricted.

But you haven't answered the question. Why is it that women wearing Hijab out of choice are seen as oppressed, yet those that are forced to dress 'immodestly' for various reasons (like boosting sales) are still seen as free?

And we've already mentioned why women have to observe Hijab - what you personally believe certain men must think is irrelevant.

[abu salaahudeen]

i know of many women who by their own choice wear the full veil without any pressure and the women refuse to marry someone who is not as supportive of the veil.

i say good on them as its their own choice in order to please God as in opposite comparison we see many women remove most of their garments in order to please the people.

Women not wearing much clothes due to soccietal trend isnt freedom rather oppression

[MSalman]

so supreme has finally turned this into "why Islam commands women to cover themselves". Am I surprised, NO!

1) The Burka is mentioned explictely in the Hadith

according to some scholars, it has been also mentioned in the Qur'an and they use linguistic meaning and implication of those words to prove their case. Regardless of differences of opinions, the sahih Sunnah in religious matters is revelation from Allah and it is the source of Islamic rulings. I mean, we would expect people like you to know this at least. Secondly, your comparison with five pillars is so bad when nowhere it is mentioned in the Qur'an that "these are your five pillars". So on what basis do you say one is part of integral Islam and other is not when both are not found in the Qur'an?

As a man, do you feel that it is necessary for you to hide your complete body under billowy clothes, and to cover your hair so that it cannot be seen in public?

when did you become an atheist/secular? Sorry, I forgot you are a secular christian. I wonder what kind of Christian was Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him)!? Who draw the line of saying "this type and this much clothing is fine and everything else is unacceptable"? It is not up to man to decide the dress code, PERIOD!

There is MUCH space to be covered between those extremes.

and who decides how much space need to be covered? Do you decide it? Or is it subjective? Or someone else?

But the thing is: the men who believe it should be necessary for women to hide even their faces view them as sex objects, they just think that *access* to these objects should be more restricted.

Are we talking about Islamic ruling or what certain men think!? Are you gay? If not then you should know as a man that by default we have natural inclination toward women and we love to get as many as possible to please our physical desires. There maybe some exceptions but this is a general rule. Hence, blocking the means for men to please themselves however they want is much better than allowing them to do what they naturally desire or making it easier for them. On other hand, women by nature are more shy than men.

Even though I don't have any pictures of Mary, the covering she is wearing can only be comparable to the hijab, not the Burka.

as pointed out already, hijab is a broader term which covers every aspect of dress code for women, including covering the face. Burka is specific term used for specific kind of garment. So is her clothing (being shy and dressing modestly) sexist? Why don't you apply all the above atheist/secular questions to Marry (peace be upon her) or do you love being a hypocrite and bias?

It is worthy of note that you say nothing about rest of my points

In your opinion, are Muslim women who choose not to wear the Burka worse Muslims than those who choose not to?

irrelevant question - what I personally think has no value in prophetic world. Only Allah Azza wa Jal knows who is a good Muslim and who is not and in sight of Allah better are those who have taqwa. If a sister is wearing niqab to please Allah and she is fulfilling rest of her obligations then she has higher imaan (taqwa) than a sister who is fulfilling her other obligation but don't wear niqab. and Allah knows best

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it. But it is part of Islamic culture.

taking whatever you want and twisting it the words around works zilch in your favor in a debate.

Next question. I'll put this as politely as possible. Do you not think that the Burka is a garment and is actually harsh on women's rights?

no, how so? a woman's beauty differs greatly from a males beauty...and likewise, a mans reaction towards a woman's beauty is different from a woman's reaction towards a man's beauty.
would you put your 24 carat gold jewelery on your front door step for everyone too see and and "salivate" over? i think not.

[Supreme]

Greetings Muhammed

Hijab is often used as a general term to refer to the covering a Muslim woman must wear in the presence of (marriageable) men. So a Burka can be considered Hijab.

True, but in this context, lets assume it is just the covering of the head.

No, there's a big misunderstanding here. The Hadeeth are to be taken together with the Qur'an in understanding any issue - both were inspired by Allaah (swt). So we have to obey whatever has been commanded in the Qur'an and Hadeeth. Feel free to browse our Hadeeth section for further information - here's a thread that might be relevant: http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...on-sunnah.html (Introduction to the Sunnah)

Thanks for clearing that up. However, does Islam treat the Quran just that little bit more importantly?

It is segregated when it comes to prayer. Which women have you seen there who are not weaking a Burka?

Well, obviously I've not seen any women there, as I've never visited, however I got the idea from this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihram

Islam teaches us to dress modestly, so even men should not wear tight clothing that exposes their private parts. In short, there are guidelines for the dress code for both men and women, and we accept whatever God has commanded in this regard, and in His commands there is always wisdom and justice. It isn't a matter of what we "feel" is necessary, rather the first and foremost thing is obedience

I know, but if women should cover their faces, surely men should to?

But you haven't answered the question. Why is it that women wearing Hijab out of choice are seen as oppressed, yet those that are forced to dress 'immodestly' for various reasons (like boosting sales) are still seen as free?

I've got no issues with the Burka or the hijab, however I agree that oppression exists in Western society with women dressing up in revealing suits. However, in the West, it is not an obligation to wear revealing clothing, and that is where it differs.

And we've already mentioned why women have to observe Hijab - what you personally believe certain men must think is irrelevant.

True, but you must remember non Muslims do not believe the Hadith has much (if any) validity, much like you believe the Bible to be redundant. Therefore, would you see it a reasonable why such views exist amongst non Muslims?

[ardianto]

Edited to say: I think you will find, this is why country's like France are banning the burka, because they know it isn't a religious item, so banning it won't be breaking the law on religious terms.

Incorrect. France are banning burka/niqab/abaya because this 'dress cover' is a religious item. They forced secularism.

I say burka/niqab/abaya as 'dress cover' because women wear their usual dress under their burka/niqab/abaya.

[Supreme]

so supreme has finally turned this into "why Islam commands women to cover themselves". Am I surprised, NO!

...That was one of the first questions of the thread, so you needn't be surprised.

according to some scholars, it has been also mentioned in the Qur'an and they use linguistic meaning and implication of those words to prove their case. Regardless of differences of opinions, the sahih Sunnah in religious matters is revelation from Allah and it is the source of Islamic rulings. I mean, we would expect people like you to know this at least. Secondly, your comparison with five pillars is so bad when nowhere it is mentioned in the Qur'an that "these are your five pillars". So on what basis do you say one is part of integral Islam and other is not when both are not found in the Qur'an?

The Five Pillars are generally accepted by scholars to be the tenets of the Islamic faith. Even though the Quran does not introduce them as five pillars, it does reference each one.

when did you become an atheist/secular? Sorry, I forgot you are a secular christian. I wonder what kind of Christian was Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him)!? Who draw the line of saying "this type and this much clothing is fine and everything else is unacceptable"? It is not up to man to decide the dress code, PERIOD!

Jesus wasn't a Christian, but I can't understand the point you're making here.

and who decides how much space need to be covered? Do you decide it? Or is it subjective? Or someone else?

It isn't really subjective. A bikini is revealing. There's no subjectivity in that. A Burka is concealing. There is no subjectivity in that.

Are we talking about Islamic ruling or what certain men think!? Are you gay? If not then you should know as a man that by default we have natural inclination toward women and we love to get as many as possible to please our physical desires. There maybe some exceptions but this is a general rule. Hence, blocking the means for men to please themselves however they want is much better than allowing them to do what they naturally desire or making it easier for them. On other hand, women by nature are more shy than men.
as pointed out already, hijab is a broader term which covers every aspect of dress code for women, including covering the face. Burka is specific term used for specific kind of garment. So is her clothing (being shy and dressing modestly) sexist? Why don't you apply all the above atheist/secular questions to Marry (peace be upon her) or do you love being a hypocrite and bias?

You still don't get it, do you?
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the burqa in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?

It's not either/or. It's not 'either wear a Burka or be raped'. Nobody deserves to get raped, period. A person's morality dictates whether or not they're going to rape someone, not whether or not the victim is wearing a Burka. Do you honestly think rapists in prison would have given their crimes a second thought if their victims were wearing less revealing clothing (if they were wearing revealing clothing in the first place?)

irrelevant question - what I personally think has no value in prophetic world. Only Allah Azza wa Jal knows who is a good Muslim and who is not and in sight of Allah better are those who have taqwa. If a sister is wearing niqab to please Allah and she is fulfilling rest of her obligations then she has higher imaan (taqwa) than a sister who is fulfilling her other obligation but don't wear niqab. and Allah knows best

OK.

taking whatever you want and twisting it the words around works zilch in your favor in a debate.

Do remind me where I've done this.

no, how so? a woman's beauty differs greatly from a males beauty...and likewise, a mans reaction towards a woman's beauty is different from a woman's reaction towards a man's beauty.
would you put your 24 carat gold jewelery on your front door step for everyone too see and and "salivate" over? i think not.

Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.

[جوري]

That is how a Muslim woman should dress:

hope that clears it for you if you are not sure what they should look like..

all the best

[جوري]

this is how they should be in a mosque without a partition

this is how they are in class or work

[Esther462]

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith? Niqab is mentioned in the hadith
Why do some women wear the burka? Some are forced but choose to wear it.
Do you agree with the Burka? Yes I do. I think all woment should have choise to wear it.
If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it? Same a above.
For the men, would you force your wife to wear one? N/A
For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing? Both.
Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available? Kinder. Some women don't wear hijab properly and it depends on where you live if it is excepteble or not to wear it, like where I live.

[MSalman]

...That was one of the first questions of the thread, so you needn't be surprised.

not that it is important or I care about but show me that question in your first post if you are not a liar

The Five Pillars are generally accepted by scholars to be the tenets of the Islamic faith. Even though the Quran does not introduce them as five pillars, it does reference each one.

Don't want to go into details in this point but we are not talking about whether they are referenced in the Qur'an or whether scholars accept it. It was a grave error on your part for making a distinction between two topics by saying that one is integral part of Islam and other is not.

It isn't really subjective. A bikini is revealing. There's no subjectivity in that. A Burka is concealing. There is no subjectivity in that.

huh? You said that a certain space (of body) should be covered and I am asking you 2 simple questions: 1) how much and 2) who decides it?

You still don't get it, do you?
Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the burqa in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?

you are very slow and master at ignoring the key points, aren't you? You stated/implied, one way or the other, that burka (generlally speaking Islamic dress code for women) is sexist. Yet, when it was asked how and why, you run around with same flawed claims. Before we go into rational of wearing burka, we need to decide who we are going to follow in regard to acceptable dress code. I have asked you at least 4-5 times already so why can't you answer a simple question? Moreover, what is the rational for wearing any clothes at all? What is the rationale for Marry (peace be upon her) to cover herself by dressing modestly? Was she also wearing sexist clothing and coming out as a sex object? How many of your women address like her? Lastly, the laws of the Creator are not based upon human rationale. As a Christian you should at least now this and abide by it.

Finally, rationale of Islamic dress code is to follow the command of the Lord and to be shy and dress modestly. Unlike you people, we operate on methodology of the Prophets, following the commands of the Creator, which extends to blocking any means to any evil.

To be blunt, to a man, a woman's body is one of things to fulfill physical pleasure. Hence, one of things he seeks in her or thoughts he has about her is her physical body. You wanna label this is considering women as sex object, be my guest but we are not extreme like you.

It's not either/or. It's not 'either wear a Burka or be raped'. Nobody deserves to get raped, period. A person's morality dictates whether or not they're going to rape someone, not whether or not the victim is wearing a Burka. Do you honestly think rapists in prison would have given their crimes a second thought if their victims were wearing less revealing clothing (if they were wearing revealing clothing in the first place?)

Are you sure you are reading the same thing? Who is talking about rape and its link with Islamic dress code?

Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.

poor analogy and poor understanding of that analogy? The point of analogy is that you will protect something precious to you by any means and remove any vulnerability and not expose it to danger and make it more vulnerable. To a man, women of his household are his honour. Hence, to defend his honour and protect his household, he will protect women of his household by guarding them by any means from evil desires of other men. And not provide envirment for them which will put them in danger or allow other men to enjoy them by any means. Would you want your wife/daughter/mother to go outside in clothes which would let other men enjoy their beauty?

[Lynx]

islamiclife:

poor analogy and poor understanding of that analogy? The point of analogy is that you will protect something precious to you by any means and remove any vulnerability and not expose it to danger and make it more vulnerable. To a man, women of his household are his honour. Hence, to defend his honour and protect his household, he will protect women of his household by guarding them by any means from evil desires of other men. And not provide envirment for them which will put them in danger or allow other men to enjoy them by any means. Would you want your wife/daughter/mother to go outside in clothes which would let other men enjoy their beauty?

To interject, I think you ought to have taken into account that a piece of gold has no will whatsoever. I am going to poke a couple of holes in your analogy: 1) when you compare a piece of gold with a woman then you are sort of implying that women are objects to be safeguarded; do you objectify women? It seems so. 2) If we extend your analogy, we could argue that I should keep my wife locked in my house away from everyone else because I don't want anyone to enjoy her beauty. The obvious problem with that is we seem to think women should have the right to some freedom outside the house. To make your analogy work you'd have to admit that locking women in the house 'protected' from the rest of the world is something good. If you do bite the bullet and admit that locking women away is something praiseworthy then you've pretty much conceded sexism in that you think men should have more freedom than women.

A question comes to mind that I don't think has been brought up earlier in this thread: do the people on this board who support niqab/burka/hijab think men should wear hijab/burka if they are in the presence of Gay men?

[CosmicPathos]

islamiclife:




To interject, I think you ought to have taken into account that a piece of gold has no will whatsoever. I am going to poke a couple of holes in your analogy: 1) when you compare a piece of gold with a woman then you are sort of implying that women are objects to be safeguarded; do you objectify women? It seems so. 2) If we extend your analogy, we could argue that I should keep my wife locked in my house away from everyone else because I don't want anyone to enjoy her beauty. The obvious problem with that is we seem to think women should have the right to some freedom outside the house. To make your analogy work you'd have to admit that locking women in the house 'protected' from the rest of the world is something good. If you do bite the bullet and admit that locking women away is something praiseworthy then you've pretty much conceded sexism in that you think men should have more freedom than women.

A question comes to mind that I don't think has been brought up earlier in this thread: do the people on this board who support niqab/burka/hijab think men should wear hijab/burka if they are in the presence of Gay men?

poor analogy. Gay men ought not to exist. Women ought to exist. You cannot compare both types of biological sex and gender identity.

[Lynx]

poor analogy. Gay men ought not to exist. Women ought to exist. You cannot compare both types of biological sex and gender identity.

Oh I know that. I just think it would be interesting to comparison if anyone studied it. If it is even study-able. I mean in response to the idea that men are more visual creatures when it comes to sex which seems to be the case and one of the reasons why Muslims support Hijab. Curious thing when applied to homosexuals.

[MSalman]

To interject, I think you ought to have taken into account that a piece of gold has no will whatsoever. I am going to poke a couple of holes in your analogy: 1) when you compare a piece of gold with a woman then you are sort of implying that women are objects to be safeguarded; do you objectify women? It seems so.

First, it was never my analogy to begin with despite the fact I agree with it and I was simply pointing out the same errors which you just made. Secondly, blame yourself for your poor understanding of meaning and implication of an analogy. Who is comparing gold with women? Do you even know what is the purpose of an analogy?

Are you saying that when we say, as men, we need to protect our women folks implies that we are treating them as non-living objects? Do you objectify your child when you safeguard him/her? This is an astonishing conclusion which only comes from you kuffaar.

2) If we extend your analogy, we could argue that I should keep my wife locked in my house away from everyone else because I don't want anyone to enjoy her beauty. The obvious problem with that is we seem to think women should have the right to some freedom outside the house. To make your analogy work you'd have to admit that locking women in the house 'protected' from the rest of the world is something good. If you do bite the bullet and admit that locking women away is something praiseworthy then you've pretty much conceded sexism in that you think men should have more freedom than women.

your point would have any leg to stand if anyone is talking about locking women in their homes. However, a point worth of noting is that a woman is much safer in her house than she is outside.

You people are the last one to talk about equal freedom etc. Last time I checked men and women are not equal so I don't see how can one argue for both genders having equal freedom. Does your secular law allow women to walk without tops in public? What do you personally think: is it moral if women walk without their taps in public, should this be legalized? We are talking about equal freedom, no sexism and not objectifying a gender right?

Lastly, I have to say that you pick my points on analogy, which is the least of my focus, and ignore the rest of key points for which you have either no answer or you agree with me. The issue is not as much about laws, moral values etc. as it is about the source of moral values and laws.

A question comes to mind that I don't think has been brought up earlier in this thread: do the people on this board who support niqab/burka/hijab think men should wear hijab/burka if they are in the presence of Gay men?

*holding head* - read previous posts

[Lynx]

First, it was never my analogy to begin with despite the fact I agree with it Who is comparing gold with women? Do you even know what is the purpose of an analogy?

why would it matter if its your analogy or not? you agreed with it and you're defending it. You're comparing gold with women. That's what an analogy is..a comparison..and in your analogy compared women with jewelery because you were trying to show the similarity between precious things (women and gold).

Are you saying that when we say, as men, we need to protect our women folks implies that we are treating them as non-living objects? Do you objectify your child when you safeguard him/her? This is an astonishing conclusion which only comes from you kuffaar.

No i am saying comparing women with jewelry (a prize) is objectifying them. your analogy was bad. You can't compare one precious OBJECT like GOLD with a living human.

your point would have any leg to stand if anyone is talking about locking women in their homes. However, a point worth of noting is that a woman is much safer in her house than she is outside.

Well that is where your analogy was leading to. You said women ought to be protected in the same way precious gold should be protected and people tend to lock their jewelery in a safe. So your analogy is bad. And no it's worth noting that a woman is safe inside. It's obvious she's safe inside but that type of precaution is much greater than the actual risk involved..so not justified.

You people are the last one to talk about equal freedom etc. Last time I checked men and women are not equal so I don't see how can one argue for both genders having equal freedom. Does your secular law allow women to walk without tops in public? What do you personally think: is it moral if women walk without their taps in public, should this be legalized? We are talking about equal freedom, no sexism and not objectifying a gender right?

half of this is a tu quoque fallacy. I don;t think either women or men should be allowed to walk around topless. Also, you're correct in pointing out that women and men are different. But at the same time, they are similar so some of the laws pertaining to men and women (most i would say) should be the same.

Lastly, I have to say that you pick my points on analogy, which is the least of my focus, and ignore the rest of key points for which you have either no answer or you agree with me. The issue is not as much about laws, moral values etc. as it is about the source of moral values and laws.

Well I don't really have a problem with Hijab or Niqab as long as its strictly a voluntary decision. I think it's better for people to be more covered than not covered. I just had a problem with the analogy because it was a bit sexist and poorly thought out. It's a common one that Muslims use but it really shouldn't be used.

As for the source of moral values and laws I can only give you my guess on that since it is a topic that doesn't have a discovered answer so far; I think moral values come from emotional responses to situations + contractual arrangements with one another which is to say that we have an informal agreement with everyone else in society to not do certain things because it will harm society and if society is harmed everyone loses. As for laws, well laws are just an embodiment of some moral values..namely the ones that will help the country survive. So I guess basically, law is a sub-field of morality..it's the practical morality that a state needs to enforce so everyone can live together and prosper.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.

so what? how is it relevant if it doesnt have thoughts and feelings? it is still valuable (extremely valuable). for crying out loud, use your imagination, instead of twisting the argument and making yourself look stupid.

[Predator]

1 corinthians

11:5 But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. 11:6 For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head

And despite those verse what do they do

[S_87]

[QUOTE=Supreme;1283124]

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith?

the burka is a certain style of covering, you are asking about the 'niqab' i assume which is a face veil in general? Anyhow, cover in that manner is mentioned in the Quran and Hadith, and anyone who says otherwise is IGNORANT of islam. yes that may sound harsh but regardless of if a person finds it obligatory or not, to deny that the muslim women werent instructed to cover like that or didnt cover like that and claim the face cover is simply culture is plain and simple IGNORANCE.

Why do some women wear the burka?

why would you imagine? :) (io mean seriously not sarcastically. why would YOU think a woman might want to cover?)

Do you agree with the Burka?

face veil/ yes i agree with it and follow the opinion it is obligatory/ and wear myself.

If so, do you think all women, including non Muslims and those from other faiths (that may promote other versions of modesty) should wear it?

The Quran only instructs it for The Prophet peace be upon hims wives/daughters and believing women. so believing women= muslim women. so....

For women who choose to wear it, do you wear it as a symbol of your Islamic identity or do you just not want to be in any way revealing?

i wear it to please my Lord and because i believe it is a requirement. i dont wear it for any political reason. i have heard women who have said that in the uk they wear the headscarf (not the niqab like youre asking) but if they were to go to iran they would take it off as a protest to the govt who makes them wear it- that to me is wearing for political reasons etc.
so wherever i am, i will wear it.

Is the Burka necessary when the hijab is available?

Cheers.

i speak for myself, i cant condemn women who wear hijab neither am i the type that looks down on others because they dont wear niqab. for example, sometimes i see women wearing the niqab- covering half their face, revealing beautifully made up eyes/ a tight skirt with high heels. by western standard they are covering their faces but on the other hand you see a woman wearing a loose abaya/over garment and a hijab, not covering her face and much more modest than the women covering her face.

[Asiyah3]

Thank you all for you responses, they are too numerous to reply to. But varied. The Burqa,

As it has been said ...already ...repeatedly, there is a difference between the scholars concerning covering the face being compulsory. Note that even if a muslim follows the view of it being optional then it's still rewarded by Allah, Insha'lLah. Still we all believe that it is certainly better to cover the face

The Burqa, it would be safe to conclude, not an integral part of Islam, hence why so many Muslim women choose not to wear it.

I also wonder from where you concluded that? I read this thread and there was a dispute about whether burqa is cultular or not. When we say is burqa cultural or not what we talk about here is the style of the cloth and NOT the matter about covering the face in Islam. And also (again) bear in mind that the discussion in these cases (covering the face) is about whether it is compulsory.

But it is part of Islamic culture.

It is surely part of Islam whether obligatory or not. I'll quote this:

From this common sense can be used:
It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever lets his garment drag out of pride, Allaah will not look at him on the Day of Resurrection.” Umm Salamah said, “What should women do with their hems?” He said, “Let it hang down a handspan.” She said, “What if that shows her feet?” He said, “Let it hang down a cubit, but no more than that.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

This hadeeth indicates that it is obligatory for women to cover their feet, and that this was something that was well known among the women of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). The feet are undoubtedly a lesser source of temptation than the face and hands, so a warning concerning something that is less serious is a warning about something that is more serious and to which the ruling applies more. The wisdom of sharee’ah means that it would not enjoin covering something that is a lesser source of temptation and allow uncovering something that is a greater source of temptation. This is an impossible contradiction that cannot be attributed to the wisdom and laws of Allaah.

Here's straight evidence:

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in ihraam. When they came near us we would lower our jilbaabs from our heads over our faces, and when they had passed by we would uncover our faces. Narrated by Abu Dawood, 1562.

‘Ubaydah al-Salmaani and others stated that the women used to wear the jilbaab coming down from the top of their heads in such a manner that nothing could be seen except their eyes, so that they could see where they were going. It was proven in al-Saheeh that the woman in ihraam is forbidden to wear the niqaab and gloves. This is what proves that the niqaab and gloves were known among women who were not in ihraam. This implies that they covered their faces and hands.”



5 – It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah… that Safwaan ibn al-Mu’attal al-Sulami al-Dhakwaani was lagging behind the army. He came to where I had stopped and saw the black shape of a person sleeping. He recognized me when he saw me, because he had seen me before hijaab was enjoined. I woke up when I heard him saying ‘Inna Lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raaji’oon (verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return),’ when he saw me, and I covered my face with my jilbaab.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3910; Muslim, 2770)

Very ignorant of you to say it's not an integral part of Islam

[Asiyah3]

I know, but if women should cover their faces, surely men should to?

Ridiculous. I don't think you are that young for this to be explained to you :phew

However, in the West, it is not an obligation to wear revealing clothing, and that is where it differs.

Well now it is an obligation in France!

[Asiyah3]

Tell me, what's the rationale for wearing the burqa in the first place, if not that the female body is regarded as a sex object (that needs to be hidden from view)?

...This was a very weird sentence from you. Actually wholely one-sided. You ignored religion :hmm:

Poor analogy. My 24 carrott gold is not a living, breathing human with thoughts and feelings.

You don't seem to be interested to change your views regarding the burqa :hmm: Mmm... Dressing modesty is oppressing other's thoughts and hurting feelings, but dressing revealingly - the way you dress - makes you/your life less- oppressive???

What a comical topic :embarrass

[Al-manar]

:sl:
In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...

It is that niqab isn't obligatory..

I'm not going to refute ,the niqab is obligatory opinion (which I believe to be easy task,was done by infamous scholars eg; Al-Albani,the great muhadith ) just I advice the sisters who believe niqab is obligatory not to give the impression that such opinion represents Islam,or a school versus another school...... it is,again majority versus minorty opinion......

peace

[sevgi]

I feel the need to repost my previous post. This has become a circular debate.

[Al-manar]

I feel the need to repost my previous post. This has become a circular debate.

peace

dunno if this post is directed to me.... anyway I haven't debated anyone yet...... and If I would debate It will be those who believe niqab to be obligatory(which I don't think from your previous posts you belong to)...


peace

[sevgi]

peace

dunno if this post is directed to me.... anyway I haven't debated anyone yet...... and If I would debate It will be those who believe niqab to be obligatory(which I don't think from your previous posts you belong to)...


peace

Oh! No way! I didnt even look directly below me. Ive been following the thread for a few days and thats the general vibe that I got. I'm sorry you felt that way!

Ws.

[Asiyah3]

:sl:
In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion [/U]of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...

peace

You said you would follow the opinion followed by majority of muslims?

I also follow the opinion of niqab not being obligatory, but it is without a doubt recommended (sunnah) and so better. And that I say by the evidence I quoted.

[Al-manar]

peace

thats the general vibe that I got. I'm sorry you felt that way!

never mind sis, it is me sorry if there is misunderstanding...

Does the Burka have a mention in the Quran/Hadith? Niqab is mentioned in the hadith

mentioned as fard,obligatory? if so, would you quote the hadith?

peace

[Asiyah3]

*********edit

[CosmicPathos]

:sl:
In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...

It is that niqab isn't obligatory..

I'm not going to refute ,the niqab is obligatory opinion (which I believe to be easy task,was done by infamous scholars eg; Al-Albani,the great muhadith ) just I advice the sisters who believe niqab is obligatory not to give the impression that such opinion represents Islam,or a school versus another school...... it is,again majority versus minorty opinion......

peace

read the opinion of classical scholars, not modern. Niqab is Islamic and will remain Islamic. You cannot take the right from our niqabi sisters to call it Islamic.

[Cabdullahi]

Quran

''O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around the whole of their bodies.that will be better for them so they are known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed.''

Quran 33:59




Hadith

"I covered my face with my garment from him"(reported by Al-Bukhaaree)

"She would drop the garment from her head over her face".(Reported by Abu Dawood)

"We used to cover our faces from the men"(reported Al-Haakim).

[CosmicPathos]

Quran

''O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around the whole of their bodies.that will be better for them so they are known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed.''

Quran 33:59




Hadith

"I covered my face with my garment from him"(reported by Al-Bukhaaree)

"She would drop the garment from her head over her face".(Reported by Abu Dawood)

"We used to cover our faces from the men"(reported Al-Haakim).

Still, its a minority opinion, brother! :p Few umm al momineen vs millions of muslimahs. :p

[Al-manar]

You said you would follow the opinion followed by majority of muslims?

In the case of Hijab ,then yes....

I also follow the opinion of niqab not being obligatory, but it is without a doubt recommendable .

and I have no problem with that ,it is recommended if place,time of fitnah (mischief)...... but the fact that nowadays the fitnah basically comes not from those who wear hijab but those who wear neither hijab nor niqab.....

our priority now to encourage those to wear hijab..


peace

[S_87]

:sl:
In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...

It is that niqab isn't obligatory..

I'm not going to refute ,the niqab is obligatory opinion (which I believe to be easy task,was done by infamous scholars eg; Al-Albani,the great muhadith ) just I advice the sisters who believe niqab is obligatory not to give the impression that such opinion represents Islam,or a school versus another school...... it is,again majority versus minorty opinion......

peace

you do know that many sahabas and scholars including the 4 imams considered it obligatory and the verses referring to the face (there is disagreement as to whether imam abu hanifa considered it obligatory, the general opinion is he did too though)...would you by any chance have any statements from sahabahs indicating what you say?

Originally Posted by Supreme
I know, but if women should cover their faces, surely men should to?

forget the issue of veil for a minute. lets look at attraction differences in men and women. it is known that men look for visual attraction in women firstly/and this isnt really the case for women. would you agree or not?

Still, its a minority opinion, brother! Few umm al momineen vs millions of muslimahs

not only the wives wore it, the women of the muhajireen and ansar wore it too when the ayahs were revealed. so the Vs is actually
understanding of women and men around Muhammed :arabic5: Vs understanding of women today :p

[Asiyah3]

In the case of Hijab ,then yes....

Do then if I bring you evidence from satistics and from polls that muslims think that eating pig is permissible then you follow that opinion?

and I have no problem with that ,it is recommended if place,time of fitnah (mischief)......

Brother since when did Islamic rulings depend on circumstances? (apart from cases of necessity).

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “you must adhere to my Sunnah and the way of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. Hold on to it and cling fast to it. And beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly-invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is a going astray.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (4607)

but the fact that nowadays the fitnah basically comes not from those who wear hijab but those who wear neither hijab nor niqab.....


peace

Yeah, though there are those who put tight jeans etc.

[ardianto]

According to Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik and Imam Shafi'i, woman's awrah is her body except face and hands. But I don't know yet what Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal's view about it.

[Supreme]

not that it is important or I care about but show me that question in your first post if you are not a liar

Sure:

Why do some women wear the burka?

Don't want to go into details in this point but we are not talking about whether they are referenced in the Qur'an or whether scholars accept it. It was a grave error on your part for making a distinction between two topics by saying that one is integral part of Islam and other is not.

OK, let us talk about what integral means. It means necessary, and not complete without. If the Burkha is an integral part of Islam, why are so many Muslim women not complete in their faith by wearing it? Are they still proper, 'complete' Muslims?

huh? You said that a certain space (of body) should be covered and I am asking you 2 simple questions: 1) how much and 2) who decides it?

How much depends on the culture, and the leaders of that culture decide. However, there are subjective extremes- a bikini is a revealing bit of clothing whether you're Western or Islamic, a Burkha is a concealing bit of clothing whether you're Western or Muslim- only the social acceptability of these clothes change.

you are very slow and master at ignoring the key points, aren't you? You stated/implied, one way or the other, that burka (generlally speaking Islamic dress code for women) is sexist. Yet, when it was asked how and why, you run around with same flawed claims. Before we go into rational of wearing burka, we need to decide who we are going to follow in regard to acceptable dress code. I have asked you at least 4-5 times already so why can't you answer a simple question? Moreover, what is the rational for wearing any clothes at all? What is the rationale for Marry (peace be upon her) to cover herself by dressing modestly? Was she also wearing sexist clothing and coming out as a sex object? How many of your women address like her? Lastly, the laws of the Creator are not based upon human rationale. As a Christian you should at least now this and abide by it.

It is sexist because it is a loose, massive, and generally billowy outfit designed specifically for women, but also because it pre-supposes women are sex objects and not a great deal else because the woman has to hide any *access* to her body from men who are not her husband, thus nullifying any physical femininity about her. In addition, it also is sexist in the way it assumes all men are somehow perverse, sexually obssessed rapists, and that the garment will somehow 'quench' such desires.
In case that's still too much for you to wrap your mind around, let me give you a little example:
Person A enjoys it when his trophy wife wears revealing dresses in public, just to show her off like a prized possession.
Person B explodes with jealousy at the mere thought of someone else seeing as much as a single hair of his wife, because he wants this prized possession all to himself.

Now, who treats his spouse as a full-fledged human being in this scenario? And which is more sexist?

Finally, rationale of Islamic dress code is to follow the command of the Lord and to be shy and dress modestly. Unlike you people, we operate on methodology of the Prophets, following the commands of the Creator, which extends to blocking any means to any evil.

And has it worked? Has the Burkha prevented evil, as you put it?

To be blunt, to a man, a woman's body is one of things to fulfill physical pleasure. Hence, one of things he seeks in her or thoughts he has about her is her physical body. You wanna label this is considering women as sex object, be my guest but we are not extreme like you.

Really? So all men are sex crazed rapists? I'd disagree with this fully, but let's assume it is the case; why aren't all females born with burkhas on already? Surely that'd be a better act of design by God, or even better, why create all men as sex crazed rapists in the first place?

so what? how is it relevant if it doesnt have thoughts and feelings? it is still valuable (extremely valuable). for crying out loud, use your imagination, instead of twisting the argument and making yourself look stupid.

A person is valuable, but not in the same way as gold. That is called objectifying women, ie comparing women to an object to justify actions regarding women, and it is a bad example at that.

You don't seem to be interested to change your views regarding the burqa Mmm... Dressing modesty is oppressing other's thoughts and hurting feelings, but dressing revealingly - the way you dress - makes you/your life less- oppressive???

Then change my mind about the Burkha. And I agree, both forms of clothing are oppressive.

[Al-manar]

Niqab is Islamic and will remain Islamic.

who said that niqab non-islamic? I said just don't make the impression that it is only represents Islam ,and that is what I feel whenever I read the arguments of those adhere to it...

Do then if I bring you evidence from satistics and from polls that muslims think that eating pig is permissible then you follow that opinion?

and that is my point, facts should be taken through daleel not vote......
the validity of the prohibition of pork is based on the validity of the Quran proof text... not the opinions..

the proof text should always has the priority..

that is why I said (in the case of hijab) as there are some few other issues I disagree with the opinion of the majority (though never ruled out the possibility of the validity of their opinion)..

there must be those who disagree,but that is not our point of discussion now....

Brother since when did Islamic rulings depend on circumstances?

you assume that niqab is a rule not a mustahab.

again I'm not attacking the niqab or those who wear it,I wish them all the best..and be rewarded if they think that what they do will bring them nearer to Allah....

you do know that many sahabas and scholars including the 4 imams considered it obligatory .

I'm afraid you have been misinformed !


The school of Abu Hanifa


Abu Ja'far Ahmad ibn Muhammad At-Tahaawee,in his book Sharh Ma'ani al-Athar :



It is lawful for the people to look at the faces and the hands of women and that is the saying of Imam Abu Hanifa,and his students Abu yusuf and Mohamed ,may Allah bless their souls....


قال أبو جعفر الطحاوي في "شرح معاني الآثار" (2|392): «أبيح للناس أن ينظروا إلى ما ليس بمحرَّم عليهم من النساء إلى وجوههن وأكفهن، وحرم ذلك عليهم من أزواج النبي
وهو قول أبي حنيفة وأبي يوسف ومحمد رحمهم الله
».

other quotations regarding the hanafi opinion:


Imam Mohamed ben alhasan Alshaibany in his book Almabsot:


The opinion of Abu Hanifa is that the face and hands are not awrah.....................


جاء في "المبسوط" للإمام محمد بن الحسن الشيباني (3|56): «وأما المرأة الحرة التي لا نكاح بينه وبينها ولا حرمة ممن يحل له نكاحها، فليس ينبغي له أن ينظر إلى شيء منها مكشوفاً، إلا الوجه والكف. ولا بأس بأن ينظر إلى وجهها وإلى كفها. ولا ينظر إلى شيء غير ذلك منها. وهذا قول أبي حنيفة.



and


Alkasani in his book badai alsanai:

it is unlawful to look at the woman except the face and the hands............................

بدائع الصنائع للكاسانى ج4 ص 266 : (لا يحل النظر للأجنبى من الأجنبية الحرة إلا إلى مواقع الزينة الظاهرة و هى الوجه و الكفان ، رخص بقوله تعالى : (ولا يبدين زينتهن إلا ما ظهر منها) (النور: 31) .والمراد من الزينة الظاهرة هى الوجه و الكفان ، فالكحل زينة الوجه و الخاتم زينة الكف، ولأنها تحتاج إلى البيع و الشراء و الأخذ و العطاء ولا يمكنها ذلك عادة إلا بكشف الوجه و الكفين فيحل لها الكشف وهذا رأى أبى حنيفة رضى الله عنه ، وروى الحسن عن أبى حنيفة أنه يحل النظر إلى القدمين أيضاً


and


قال المرغينانى من الحنفية : (وبدن الحرة كلها عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها ) ، لقوله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( المرأة عورة مستورة) واستثناء العضوين للابتداء بإبدائهما




and

ذكره الشيباني في "المبسوط" (3|56) واختاره,



and


وكذلك السرخسي في كتابه المبسوط (10/152-153


and



قال ابن هبيرة الحنبلي في " الإفصاح" (1/118-حلب):

" واختلفوا في عورة المرأة الحرة وحدِّها فقال أبو حنيفة: كلها عورة إلا الوجه والكفين والقدمين. وقد روي عنه أن قدميها عورة

etc..............................................


The school of Malik:


his student Abdul rahman ben alqasem narrated:

روى عنه صاحبه عبد الرحمن بن القاسم المصري في "المدونة" (2/221) نحو قول الغمام محمد في المحرمة إذا أرادت أن تسدل على وجهها وزاد في البيان فقال:

" فإن كانت لا تريد ستراً فلا تسدل".

ونقله ابن عبد البر في " التمهيد" (15-111) وارتضاه.

وقال بعد أن ذكر تفسير ابن عباس وابن عمر لآية: {إلا ما ظهر منها} بالوجه والكفين (6/369):

" وعلى قول ابن عباس وابن عمر الفقهاء في هذا الباب. (قال (هذا ما جاء في المرأة وحكمها في الاستتار في صلاتها وغير صلاتها". تأمل قوله:" وغير صلاتها"!


وفي " الموطأ" رواية يحيى (2/935):
" سئل مالك: هل تأكل المرأة مع غير ذي محرم منها أو مع غلامها؟ فقال مالك: ليس بذلك بأس إذا كان ذلك على وجه ما يُعرفُ للمرأة أن تأكل معه من الرجال قال: وقد تأكل المرأة مع زوجها ومع غيره ممن يؤاكله".
قال الباجي في" المنتفى شرح الموطأ" (7/252) عقب هذا النص:
" يقضي أن نظر الرجل إلى وجه المرأة وكفيها مباح لأن ذلك يبدو منها عند مؤاكلتها".


and

قال الشيخ ابن خلف الباجى فى المنتقى شرح الموطأ ، ج4 ص 105 / (وجميع المرأة عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها).


and

نقل ابن حجر الهيثمى فى تحفة المحتاج شرح المنهاج ج7 ص 193 ، عن القاضى عياض أن المرأة غير ملتزمة بستر وجهها إجماعاً حيث قال : (نقل المصنف عن عياض الإجماع على أنه لا يلزمها فى طريقها ستر وجهها ، وإنما هو سنة وعلى الرجال غض البصر عنهن للآية).



and

قال حافظ المغرب ابن عبد البر فى التمهيد ج 6 ص 364 ، 365 ، 366 : (قال مالك و أبو حنيفة و الشافعى و أصحابهم ، وهو قول الأوزاعى و أبى ثور: على المرأة أن تغطى منها ما سوى وجهها وكفيها ، إجماع العلماء على أن للمرأة أن تصلى المكتوبة ، و يداها ووجهها مكشوف ، ذلك كله منها تباشر الأرض به و أجمعوا على أن لا تصلى منتقبة، و لا عليها أن تلبس قفازين ، و فى هذا أوضح دليل على أن ذلك منها غير عورة).


The school of Imam Alshafi:


Imam al-Shafi` himself in his book Al-Umm wrote, "All a woman's body is awrah with the exception of her hands and her face. The top of her feet is also awrah".

Another Shafi`i scholar

Imam Fakhr ad-Din Razi (d. 606 A.H. which is 1209 C.E.), who wrote, "Since the showing of the face and hands is necessary, the fuqaha had no choice but to agree that they are not awra".



Ben hubairah,in his book Al-efsaah wrote:

They disagreed regarding woman's awrah ..Abu Hanifa said the woman all awrah with the exception of the face and hands, Malik and Shafi ,held the same opinion.....

قال ابن هبيرة الحنبلي في " الإفصاح" (1/118-حلب):
" واختلفوا في عورة المرأة الحرة وحدِّها فقال أبو حنيفة: كلها عورة إلا الوجه والكفين والقدمين. وقد روي عنه أن قدميها عورة وقال مالك الشافع: كلها عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها وهو قول أحمد في إحدى روايتيه والرواية الأخرى: كلها عورة إلا وجهها وخاصة. وهي المشهورة واختارها الخرقي".


Ibn abdul bar wrote in his book Altamhid:

the saying that woman is awrah except the face and hands belongs to the three founders of madhabs and their students, and also the saying of al-awzai and abi thawr...

قال ابن عبد البر في "التمهيد" (6/364) - وقد ذكر أن المرأة كلها عورة إلا الوجه والكفين وأنمه قول الائمة الثلاثة وأصحابهم وقول الأوزاعي وأبي ثور


and

قال الإمام النووى فى المجموع ج3 ص 175 : (وعورة المرأة جميع بدنها إلا الوجه والكفين).
وقال أيضاً : المشهور من مذهبنا أن عورة الحرة جميع بدنها إلا الوجه والكفين .. وبهذا كله قال مالك وطائفة ، وهى رواية عن أحمد ، وممن قال عورة الحرة جميع بدنها إلا الوجه والكفين الأوزاعى وأبو ثور ، وقال أبو حنيفة والثورى والمزنى : قدماها أيضاً ليسا بعورة ، وقال أحمد : جميع بدنها إلا وجهها فقط.


and


قال ابن قدامة فى المغنى ج1 ص 522 : (قال أبو حنيفة القدمان ليسا من العورة لأنهما يظهران غالباً فهما كالوجه ، وقال مالك والأوزاعى والشافعى جميع المرأة عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها


If only one native Arab speaker would help translate the material with me,it would be so much appreciated...

the fact is that, The majority of imams — including those of the four schools of fiqh(with the exception of Ibn hanbal) hold the opinion that a woman is not obliged to cover her face and hands...


to be continued

[Al-manar]

would you by any chance have any statements from sahabahs indicating what you say?

Ibn Abbas (may Peace Be Upon Him) with reference to Surah An-Nur “except only that which is apparent” as Ibn Kathir narrated with a Sahih (authentic) chain of narrators, said it’s "The hand, the ring, and the face." Abdullah Ibn Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (ra) said “the face and the two hands”. Anas Ibn Malik (ra) said “the hand and the ring”. Ibn Hazm said: “all of this (statements) are in the highest of accuracy. And so are statements by Ali (ra), Aisha (ra), and other Tabi’een”.

[جوري]

I don't think niqab is obligatory, and what was expected from the mothers of the believers isn't necessarily what is expected from the rest of the Muslim women. Be that as it may, I don't think anyone should force a woman to take off or put on clothes by some ridiculous secular mandate. I wonder if they realize where they are headed with a bill like that.. if people kowtow to this in the future they might pass another mandate that is equally absurd.. people should wear what they believe is best for them.

btw even more ridiculous than france a secular godless country, is Egypt for passing a fatwa forcing Muslims sisters from wearing the niqab and even those who simply cover with a surgical mask force them to have it removed, disallow them from entrance into universities etc...

we should start with our end of the spectrum, I don't expect much from hedonistic countries anyway.. but what is our excuse?

[Uthman]

Whether or not the Niqab is obligatory is a fiqhi issue, about which there is a difference of opinion amongst mainstream scholars with some holding the position that it is indeed obligatory and others holding the view that it is merely recommended.

Since the OP has probably got the idea by now and, in accordance with forum rule #12 which states:

This is not a Fiqh discussion board. Prolonged threads arguing over Fatwas and the details of Islamic law will be closed.

this thread will now be closed.