format_quote Originally Posted by
Saghas
Hello Friends,
I am a Catholic convert. I studied Islam a few years ago but I stopped because it was shaking my faith. Since then I have become a hard-core traditionalist Catholic and in that community there are those who would be more than willing to launch a tenth crusade to reclaim Europe for the Church. I was one of them, so last night when I had an overwhelming desire to look into Islam again it was something completely out of the blue and I could not ignore it. Traditionalists or "trads" as some call us do not like Islam and spend a lot of time attempting to discredit it. I have been hearing their voices for two years now and so for me to all of a sudden completely change my view and want to study Islam again makes me pause. I very nearly hated Islam a few days ago because I saw it as being opposed to everything I stood for but now all of a sudden I feel none of that. I am tired of the Church in so many ways. I am looking for a more tolerent faith (I know so many paint Islam as intolerant but I learned enough from my previous study to know better) and above all the Truth.
I have been thinking that I want to follow Jesus as best I can. If Islam is true and Islam's concept of Jesus is true then that is the best way. I don't think I gave Islam a fair chance last time around. I bought a Quran and tried to read it and read a few books but when the really heard questions came I just stopped but if Muhammad was a true prophet then I need to make sure.
I know that Muslims view Jesus as a prophet, you believe in the Virgin Birth, that he was the Messiah etc. I have been rereading some Scripture and once I detach myself from the basic assumption that Jesus is God it really does seem like Jesus is always telling his followers to turn to God and he never claimed to be God. There are a few passages I wanted to ask you about though.
'My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' (John 5:17-18).
I can easily see here where Christ is saying that him and God are not the same.
"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19)
(If you follow Jesus' teachings then you would know God, got it)
"'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58).
This one I am confused by....
and this one
"'What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son"? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.' Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (John 10:36-39).
and these
'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).
any help?
Thank you
Peace
Consider these from Scripture:
6 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; Isaiah 48:16-17
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said: "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me."
The baptismal formula shows 3:
"baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).
1st. Note how Jesus always cast out demons, cured the sick, and did miracles in His own name. Also, on several occasions Jesus deliberately said; "I AM". This would never have been taken lightly by any Jew of Jesus' time.
Think! Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” When first encountered, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, when we look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “For a good work we stone thee not; replied the Jews, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” (John 10:33). Now we see an actual claim. The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. " Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am". See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19. The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)
John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!
To try and grasp the Trinity, first understand that God the Father the Son and Holy Spirit are Spirit, light, awesomeness, power, justice and love -- and He in no way conforms to a human's understanding. Jesus told us God is Spirit. Shine two beams of light on the same spot, and you have the light of one, separate, yet also the same as the others. An example of Jesus' light and the Father's light as the same is at this true Near Death Experience
here
Next, try to grasp Jesus' nature as being both totally human and totally God. To help you with this consider these paradoxes by early church father Gregory of Nazianzus (329-390 A.D.). Gregory used these to argue against Arianism.
"He was baptized as a man -- but He remitted sins as God...He was tempted as man, but he conquered as God...He hungered -- but He fed thousands...He was wearied, but He is the rest of them that are weary and heavy-laden. He was heavy with sleep, but He walked lightly over the sea...He pays tribute, but it is out of a fish; yea He is the king of those who demanded it...He prays, but he hears prayer. He weeps, but He causes tears to cease. He asks where Lazarus was laid, for He was man; but He raises Lazarus, for He was God. He is sold, and very cheap, for it is only for thirty pieces of silver; but He redeems the world, and that at a great price, for the price was His blood. As a sheep he is led to the slaughter, but He is the shepherd of Israel, and now of the whole world also...He is bruised and wounded, but He heals every disease and every infirmity. He is lifted up and nailed to the tree, but by the tree of life He restores us. He dies, but he gives life, and by His death He destroys death."
Cyril of Alexandria (376 - 444 AD) says, ‘Indeed, the mystery of Christ runs the risk of being disbelieved precisely because it is so incredibly wonderful. For God was in humanity. He who was above all creation was in our human condition; the invisible one was made visible in the flesh; he who is from the heavens and from on high was in the likeness of earthly things; the immaterial one could be touched; he who is free in his own nature came in the form of a slave; he who blesses all creation became accursed; he who is all righteousness was numbered among the transgressors; life itself came in the appearance of death. All this followed because the body, which tasted death, belonged to no other but to him who is the Son by nature,’ [
On the Unity of Christ]
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name
Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name
Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23
For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That
God hath visited his people. Luke 7:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. John 1:1
because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18
Jesus said:
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
The Jews answered him [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. John 10:33
When many were about to stone Jesus for blasphemy (John 10:30-39), He said to them that said he blasphemed "because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36).
You call Me Teacher and Lord; and ye say well; for so
I Am. John 13:13
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I Am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 14:61-62
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm 110:1
he that hath
seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
"Do you not believe that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." (
John 14:10)
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus],
My Lord and my God. John 20:28
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17
...Who [Jesus],
being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be
equal with God: Philippians 2:6
...For
in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the
Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
...who [Jesus] is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:15
and also
John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on,
you do know him and
have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that
I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
John 14:11 Believe me when I say that
I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles,
that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him,
for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one
as we are one.
"When Jesus said 'I and the Father are one' didn't He just mean they are of one accord, they are merely like-minded?"
Considering the overall content of the Bible, this cannot be:
The Greek word he used,
heis, is the word for the number one. It is a reference to the Shema, the core tenet of Judaism, "
Sh'ma, Yisrael, Adonai Eloheynu Adonai echad," which, using Christian terminology is, "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God. Jehovah is one."
John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because
you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory
I had with you before the world began.
John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father]
All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Note: "Son of Man" was a term referring to the expected Messiah.