why do Christians celebrate Easter?

[Asian man]

the bible said that Jesus never got crusified, and he never got reserrected, yet the Christians change the bible and think that he died and got reserrected.

Easter is a pagan holiday like christmas.

[glo]

Greetings, Asian Man

Can you explain where the Bible states that Jesus never got crucified or was resurrected?
I understand that the Qu'ran denies that these things ever happened, but the Bible clearly says otherwise.

You are right that Easter coincides with an older pagan spring/fertility festival.
As I understand it was arranged that way partly to encourage pagans to adopt the Christian celebration, but also partly because the theme of rebirth and new life fits very well into the story of Jesus' resurrection and his promise of new life.

So to answer your question, Christians celebrate Easter to remember the great sacrifice which Jesus made to restore the relationship between humans and God. We remember the words he spoke to his disciples at the last supper and the instructions he gave; we remember the suffering he took upon himself; the terrible desolation and despair his followers felt when he died; and the glorious joy and wonder of his resurrection.

Easter is a very special time for us indeed, and without a doubt the most important festival in the Christian calendar.
We spend 40 days preparing ourselves for Easter, and we try to relive the last days during Holy Week - the last week before Easter.

I am still buzzing from the joy Easter has brought for me this year.

[Supreme]

Aside from your erroneous assertion that the Bible says Jesus never got crucified (ignorance is bliss), I agree that Easter was once a pagan festival and has kept some of its pagan roots. However, it is at the same time as the Jewish passover, and the Bible states that the death of Jesus was at the passover, hence why it is celebrated at this time of year.

EDIT- good to see you back, glo. I hope you had a nice Easter.

[Zundrah]

the bible said that Jesus never got crusified, and he never got reserrected, yet the Christians change the bible and think that he died and got reserrected.

Easter is a pagan holiday like christmas.

Because you believe that the apostels made up the story about Jesus being God, and his death.

But even you believe that Jesus will come back to us, on clouds. So.... he is some-what divine?

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[Zundrah]

Aside from your erroneous assertion that the Bible says Jesus never got crucified (ignorance is bliss), I agree that Easter was once a pagan festival and has kept some of its pagan roots. However, it is at the same time as the Jewish passover, and the Bible states that the death of Jesus was at the passover, hence why it is celebrated at this time of year.

EDIT- good to see you back, glo. I hope you had a nice Easter.

Are you Catholic?

[Supreme]

Are you Catholic?

Wrong thread, but no. I am not Catholic.

[Asian man]

The bible has been changed so many times, why would u believe what Paul said about jesus dying on the cross, Paul is not the prophet, he never met Jesus, why do people believe what he said about Jesus being resurrected?

[Asian man]

look at this, this proves the crucifixion is a lie http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac24.htm#links

[glo]

The bible has been changed so many times, why would u believe what Paul said about jesus dying on the cross, Paul is not the prophet, he never met Jesus, why do people believe what he said about Jesus being resurrected?

There are many manuscripts of the New Testament, and four different gospels which confirm and compliment each other. The idea that the Bible has been changed and rewritten to make up the story of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection is really quite implausible! It would have required destroying all written material and verbal accounts and producing a new version altogether ... can you really believe that??!

Besides, you don't need to look as far as Paul to understand that Jesus died and returned from the dead. You can hear it from his own mouth in the gospels.
These are events recorded to have taken place after the crucifixion:

Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him. (Luke 24:13-16)

He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them.

When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" (Luke 24:25-32)

They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." (Luke 24: 33-39)

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." (Luke 24: 45-48)

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:16-20)

Then the disciples went back to their homes, but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her. (John 20:10-18)

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (John 20:19-21)

Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:24-28)

All these things happened before Paul even became a Christian!

[Ummu Sufyaan]

i dont get what eggs have to do with bunnies :hmm: did i miss something :hiding:

[Al-Indunisiy]

i dont get what eggs have to do with bunnies :hmm: did i miss something :hiding:

May be it's more to do with Anglo culture, rather than Easter it's self

[glo]

i dont get what eggs have to do with bunnies :hmm: did i miss something :hiding:

Now that is a good question!! ;D

[Danah]

i dont get what eggs have to do with bunnies :hmm: did i miss something :hiding:

lol I remember watching this eggs thingy in Tom & Jerry and bunnies cartoon when I was a kid but had no idea back then why on earth they colored eggs till I knew that it was for easter..

EDIT: Well I am curios now to know what does eggs have to do with easter itself and why it has to be colored.

[Supreme]

lol I remember watching this eggs thingy in Tom and Jerry cartoon when I was a kid but had no idea back then why on earth they colored eggs till I knew that it was for easter...well I am curios now to know what does it have to do with easter.

It's more to do with Spring, and the hatching of new eggs, than Easter itself, although different interpretations give you different ideas.

I agree with the above posters, surely it'd make more sense to have an Easter Chicken than an Easter Bunny?

[Danah]

^ I edited my last post and added more........why does it have to be colored?

[glo]

^ I edited my last post and added more........why does it have to be colored?

I have no idea, Danah.
As far as I'm concerned neither the eggs, nor their colour, nor the bunny have the slightest thing to do with Christians celebrating the risen Christ.
Those may be traditions people take part in - but the reliving of Jesus' last days on Earth and the joy of his resurrection is something totally different! Easter is about a new life promised through Jesus. Chocolate eggs are really quite insignificant by comparison!

(I will do a search on eggs and their colours, if it's important to you. I'll let you know if I find anything ...)

[Supreme]

^ I edited my last post and added more........why does it have to be colored?

From memory, it's something to with Orthodox Christianity and/or Catholicism...

In honestly though, you rarely see those sorts of Easter Eggs any more. Easter, like Christmas, is now commercialised, and chocolate eggs are the norm.

[glo]

Danah, I found some information here and here.

I hope that helps.

(You can always ask the question elsewhere. You know where I mean ... :thumbs_up)

[Danah]

Danah, I found some information here and here.

I hope that helps.

(You can always ask the question elsewhere. You know where I mean ... :thumbs_up)

Thanks for the links glo.........and check ur reps plz

[Asian man]

why is everyone ignoring my previous post?

[glo]

why is everyone ignoring my previous post?

Sometimes conversations get a little side-tracked, Asian man.
I blame Ummu Sufyaan and Danah with their talk about bunnies and eggs ... ;D

I did reply to your previous post.

Personally, I am not a great friend of using those Answer-Christianity/Answer-Islam sites. I don't find them very helpful in trying to understand what other people believe and why.
What is your own understanding of what Christians believe?
Do you know Christians personally, and have you talked to them about their faith?

There are Christians here who will be happy to tell you about their faith journey, if that's what you are interested in.

[Grace Seeker]

why is everyone ignoring my previous post?

Well, in part because I hadn't even seen this thread until now.

But, also, having read it, in part because it seems you perceive that testimony from places like the link you provided are actually capable of "proving" something.

look at this, this proves the crucifixion is a lie http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac24.htm#links

I submit to you that they "prove" nothing, even when all of their information is accurate, and in this case I suspect that if you looked closely at what they posted you would disagree with the accuracy of some of their assertions as well, for instance the link claims that Jesus (pbuh) sinned. Since when do Muslims believe that of their prophets. So, the link is suspect; I believe that without proper evaluation of the truth of the information they present, they just throwing everything at a point hoping something will stick. And when people use such links as integral to their own question/positions, well, I tend to dismiss them in the same way I dismiss the value of the link itself.

But, since you asked a second time, I will address your question in two parts: "Why do Christians celebrate Easter?"

First, speaking for myself. I celebrate Easter, because Easter is a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is an event which I believe did in fact take place. I believe that Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried. And I believe that on the first day of the week Jesus was raised to life again. I believe that the event of the resurrection is testimony to who Jesus is -- Lord, God, and Messiah. I believe that the event of the resurrection is the fulfillment of the recognition by God the Father that Jesus fulfilled the sianatic and levitical commands, kept Torah, and has brought to completion the work of reconciliation between God and humankind that was the central purpose for the covenants recorded in the Tanakah. I believe that the event of the resurrection is the proof of God's intention and ability to restore the world, and event that will be brought to final fruition when Christ returns to more fully establish God's kingdom on earth, but that in the resurrection the etermal kingdom has already in a sense broken into our present day existences so that we are already living in the first days of a new creation. And I celebrate Easter because I believe all of these things are worth celebrating.

Second, implicit in your question and several of your posts seems to be doubt that the resurrection (or for that matter the crucifixion) ever took place. While I don't expect to change your mind in that regard, I respectfully disagree with such a conclusion. And I find the presumption that it must be false or has been "proven" false merely because someone with an agenda has questioned certain aspects of it as being historical facts to be more than a little impudent. Absent a time machine, I believe that there is far more to support the thesis that Jesus died as a result of Roman execution, than any of the alternatives that have been presented over the course of time. But even if the crucifixion could not be shown to be completely verifiable, I would still believe in the reality of the resurrection.

One need not go further than your own question, "Why do Christians....", to recognize that Christianity exists. Do you understand, that at the heart of Christianity is the Resurrection? Why did Christianity arise, and why did it take the shape it did? The answer to this lies in the belief that something unique had taken place in not just the teaching of Jesus Christ, but in his death and resurrection. Let me categorically assert--There is no form of early Christianity known to us -- though there are some that have been invented by ingenious, yet disingenuous, scholars -- that does not affirm at its heart that after Jesus' shameful death God raised him to life again. (credit to biblical scholar N.T. Wright for the genesis of that last sentence) Even before the time of Paul, the earliest written witness, the resurrection is woven into the very fabric of early Christian life and thought effecting everything that the nascent church did. The sacraments, received by Paul from others, where memorials of Jesus' death and resurrection and were conducted as spiritual re-enactments of these events.

Christianity began as a resurrection movement. It was not just a belief that Jesus had been raised up from the dead, but that the OT apocalyptic general "resurrection of the dead" had begun. The book of Acts tells an interesting story in this regard:

The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. (Acts 4:1-2)

Note that Peter and John are not just telling people that Jesus had been raised (though that was the content of the first ever Christian sermon), but that in Jesus there was also occuring this "resurrection of the dead." Now, the Jews had already formulated specific ideas as to what that meant. From the time of Ezekiel 37 onward (about 500 BC),

the resurrection was an image used to denote the great return from exile, the renewal of the covenant, and to connote the belief that when it happened it would mean that Israel's sin and death (i.e. exile) had been dealt with, that YHWH had renewed his covenant with his people. Thus, "the resurrection of the dead" became both metaphor and metonymy, both a symbol for the coming new age and itself, taken literally, one central element in the package. When YHWH restored the fortunes of his people then of course Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, together with all God's people...would be reembodied, raised to life in God's new world.

If, therefore, you had said to a first-century Jew "the resurrection has occurred," you would have received the puzzled response that it obviously had not, since the patriarchs, prophets and marytrs were not walking around alive again and since the restoration spoken of in Ezekiel 37 had not clearly occurred either.

The Challenge of Easter, N.T. Wright, Intevarsity Press, c. 2009

The very earliest church roundly declared not only that Jesus had been raised from the dead but that "the resurrection of the dead" had already occurred. Without Jesus' resurrection as the impetus for this belief, there is no reason for first-century Jews to have believed this climatic event to have begun. They did not behave as if they had had a new sort of religious experience or as if their former leader was alive and well in the presence of God. They behaved as though a new age had arrived--though not in the way they have been preconditioned to think of it. So, this new age belief had been triggered by something they had not expected. Nothing was less expected by the disciples than that Jesus would have been crucified, nothing except that having been so executed at the hands of the Romans that he would have returned from the grave to bodily life again. Against all their expectations of all the righteous dead of God being raised to life again at the end of time, they experienced one person being raised to life again in the middle of the present age. And this, not only unbelievable but unanticipated story, is the one they chose to tell. If they were going to invent something, this is not the story they would have invented.

I contend, it is impossible to explain why the early church continued to believe and put forth the idea that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah if he had simply been executed in the manner of all the other failed messiahs. There would be no hearing for failed Messiahs in the Jewish world, and no concern about Messiahs at all in the Gentile world. But, this is how the church chose to present Jesus. The only substantiation they ever gave for doing so was their belief in his resurrection.

I can understand why people doubt the authenticity of that story. But take away the message of Easter and you don't have a Christian faith. The question isn't just if there was no resurrection where did that faith come from? But even more, if there was no resurrection, where did a church preaching the resurrection as the center piece of their faith come from, and how did it emerge within first-century Judaism and become known in Rome even before the time of Paul?

[freethinking]

The bible has been changed so many times, why would u believe what Paul said about jesus dying on the cross, Paul is not the prophet, he never met Jesus, why do people believe what he said about Jesus being resurrected?

It wasn't just Paul that stated this, it is in all 4 of the Gospels and 500 christians who witnessed Jesus ressurection happily went to their deaths inclding being pulled apart by horses and crucified upside down rather than deny that Chris was thier saviour in the days after Jesus ascension to heaven
May the Truth set you free Brother

[Grace Seeker]

^ I edited my last post and added more........why does it have to be colored?

Because it's fun!! Not everything is religiously motivated. Something just are because mom and dad did it when you were a kid and it was fun, so you pass it those family traditions to your own kids. Of course, they also change over time, and what once might have had some sort of meaning, has had that meaning (as far as I know) lost to the vestages of time.

[جوري]

Easter like other alleged 'christian' holidays is but a pagan practice.. the eggs used to be given to the gods of persia for nowruz a celebration of spring and rebirth..

the whole religion is borrowed from pagan practices so why shouldn't their holidays?

you can read more here as I think a picture is worth a thousand words and there is no point hammering in something this obvious..

http://www.vohuman.org/Article/Noruz...f%20Spring.htm

:w:

[islamirama]

Easter Message: Anti-Semitism and genocide of Muslim children
Jewish leaders around the world were outraged by Pope Benedict XVI’s personal preacher, Father Raniero Cantalamessa, who called attack on the Pope for not mentioning the child sexual abuse (padophilia) cases within the Church in his Easter message - as “anti-Semitism”. The Zionist controlled Western mainstream media was quick to point finger on this glaring omission in the traditional Easter Messages delivered by both Pope Benedict XI and the Archbishop of Canterbury. However, the same media ignored the glaring omission of estimated 1000 Muslim children being killed each day as result of the wars created by Christian West in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Sudan, Somalia, Chechnya and Philippines. The Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury and the leaders of other Churches while preaching love and moral values – did not consider worth mentioning the world-wide children gencide because the victims happen to be Muslims.

Now compare this omission with the Zionist controlled Western mainstream media record in the past. Had the sex offender had been a Muslim, religious or non-religious, or even a dozen Jew or Christian children had been killed by Hamas or Hizb’Allah – The West would be screaming for the accusers’ head and blaming Islam for their evil deeds. However, Rabbi and priests have nothing to fear. Only last month, Rabbi Bryan Bramley of Temple Beth Shalom Synagogue in Arizona was arrested for sexually molesting a 7-year-old girl. In 2009, the Jewish daily FORWARD reported that several Jewish and Christian organizations had opposed NY Sex Abuse Bill on the excuse: “The law suits that could be leveled against rabbis, temples, yeshivot, schools and other institutions – could literally destroy schools, houses of worship that sponsor youth programs, summer camps and other institutions that are the very lifeblood of our community”.

Interestingly, the very Zionist controlled mainstream media which is now writing columns after columns on Pope’s omission – has been totally silent over child molestor Rabbis and Jewish homosexual and pedophiles. Some of the famous child abusers include Rev. Marcial Maciel Dagellado, the charismatic founder of the Legionaries of Christ, a close ally of the late Pope John Paul II. Father Maciel (d. 2008) but not before molesting hundreds of boys and fathering three illegitimate children. What is even more shocking is that it was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, who vetted accusations of abuse against Maciel but took no action despite overwhelming evidence from a number of witnesses. Also Rev. Lawrence C. Murphy, who sexually abused more than 200 deaf boys between 1950 and 1974.

Professor Dr. Gideon Polya (Australia) in his article at the Countercurrent.Org (April 6, 2010) wrote on the omission of the genocide of Muslim children in Easter Message delivered by the Catholic and the Protestant Churches. “Now if miracles actually occur and by some miracle the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope were to be drawn into a public discussion of the mass murder of Muslim children by the racist Zionist beholden US Alliance, they might plead that apart from (regular) collateral damage from civilian-targeting US bombing, the brave US storm troopers are not actually shoving bayonets into Muslim babies. However, whether a Muslim child in the occupied Palestine, Iraq or Afghanistan dies from bombs or bullets or from occupier-imposed deprivation and deprivation-exacerbated disease, the end result is the same and the moral culpability the same.

We know the racist Zionists have been blockading the Gaza Concentration Camp (1.5 million inmates, 800,000 of them children) for several years and if you consult the World Health Organization (WHO) you will find that the total health expenditure permitted by the US alliance Occupiers in in occupied Iraq and Afghanistan is US$124 and US$29 respectively, as compared to US$3,122 (for occupier Australia) and US2,784 (for occupier UK).

All decent people abide by national and international law, respecting the words of Jesus Christ, and so the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury and all world leaders (except for the leaders of war criminal US Alliance and racist Zionist-run apartheid Israel) would recognize the obligation to abide by Article 55 and 56 of the Geneva Convention relative to the protection of civilian persons in time of war which demands that an Occupier should provide its conquered subjects with food and medical life-sustaining requisites “to the fullest extent of the means available for it”.

http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2010/04...slim-children/

[Supreme]

What has the above article got to do with Easter? There's a brief reference to a Papal Easter message in the second line, but that's around it.

[freethinking]

Easter like other alleged 'christian' holidays is but a pagan practice.. the eggs used to be given to the gods of persia for nowruz a celebration of spring and rebirth..

the whole religion is borrowed from pagan practices so why shouldn't their holidays?


you can read more here as I think a picture is worth a thousand words and there is no point hammering in something this obvious..

http://www.vohuman.org/Article/Noruz...f%20Spring.htm

:w:

How can you possibly say that without due regard to Grace Seekers posts here and mine and without disrespecting Jesus and the OT too?
I thought Muslims respected scripture

Bless you to grow

[جوري]

How can you possibly say that without due regard to Grace Seekers posts here and mine and without disrespecting Jesus and the OT too?
I thought Muslims respected scripture

Bless you to grow

Neither your writing and especially not Grace's voluminous ramblings have any bearing on factuality, verity or even common sense. I don't disrespect Jesus, you worship a man named Jesus and that isn't the word of truth from Allah swt.. that is some fairy tales you and your ancestors concocted and passed on from generation to generation.. any minor search into your rituals and practices will yield a laundry list of pagan practices and rituals and even beliefs. and No, I have no regard for your scriptures. Your scriptures aren't the unadulterated word of God, why should I heed any of its contents?

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

Once again, we see that rather than addressing the question posed by the thread, "Why do Christians celebrate Easter?", some here choose to simply post that Easter is pagan in origin. Such a response is about as helpful to the OP as those Christians who, on Christian forums. respond to questions asking why Muslims throw stones at al-Kaʿbah with posts that can be reduced to "Islam is pagan in origin." Name calling is name calling. And that's all that we see in some people's posts.

[glo]

I had a chat with my husband about this topic, when he peered over my shoulder and read some of the comments in this thread.

My husband is not a Christian, so it was quite interesting for me to hear his thoughts.
He said that - speaking as a non-Christian - he felt that it really only needed a basic understanding of the Christian faith to fully know that Easter is a Christian festival, and not a pagan one.
Christians remember and celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus - that's nothing to do with any pagan deities.

However, I agree with some of my Muslim friends that the use of some traditions are not very helpful.
I know that many Christians would disagree with me, and that's fine too. We are all free to celebrate our faith in the ways we find most fulfilling!

I guess I am a bit of a puritan at heart, and I would not mind stripping down the celebrations of Easter (and Christmas) to the origins of their meaning - and to remove the hype and consumerism which surround them ...

I guess I ask myself, which traditions are beneficial to my faith journey?
When I remember the miraculous conception and birth of Jesus, are presents, decorations and a Christmas tree helpful?
When I celebrate the wonderful gift we are offered in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and his promise of new eternal life, are coloured eggs and chocolate bunnies useful?

Personally, I feel that many traditions are not particularly beneficial in my faith journey.
I find that they tend to distract believers from the true meaning of the festival they are celebrating.
And they tend to muddy the water and can cause confusion amongst non-Christians as to what Christianity actually teaches – as this thread demonstrates.

[جوري]

Once again, we see that rather than addressing the question posed by the thread, "Why do Christians celebrate Easter?", some here choose to simply post that Easter is pagan in origin. Such a response is about as helpful to the OP as those Christians who, on Christian forums. respond to questions asking why Muslims throw stones at al-Kaʿbah with posts that can be reduced to "Islam is pagan in origin." Name calling is name calling. And that's all that we see in some people's posts.

why do Christians celebrate easter is a question only they can answer but there is no denying its pagan origins to the last eggy detail... Kaaba and its stone come from Adam and then Abraham (PBUT) even if Pagans took over and then have them reclaimed again for monotheism, not the other way around!

all the best

[Predator]

respond to questions asking why Muslims throw stones at al-Kaʿbah with posts that can be reduced to "Islam is pagan in origin

LOL get your facts right . Muslims dont stone Kaabah.

Muslims , throw stones at Jamarat to signify their defiance of the Devil. This symbolizes the trials experienced by Abraham while he decided whether to sacrifice his son as demanded by Allah. The Devil challenged him three times, and three times Abraham refused. Each pillar marks the location of one of these refusals . Thus , Its the Christian religion which involves worship of a man ,his mother and his 2 co-gods and thus is Pagan in origin

[Supreme]

Gotta love conversations which go, verbatim, 'your religion is more pagan than mine!'

Every religion has bowed to some pagan influences, some in more ways than others. As ever, debating about it is rather unproductive, and if it's a method of winning converts, or any other nonsensical reason, it is generally a failure.

[freethinking]

why do Christians celebrate easter is a question only they can answer but there is no denying its pagan origins to the last eggy detail... Kaaba and its stone come from Adam and then Abraham (PBUT) even if Pagans took over and then have them reclaimed again for monotheism, not the other way around!

all the best

Gossemer
Treu Christians do not use eggs to celebrate Easter and similar for Christmas that is just a tool of rampant capatilsit consumerism which many secular people indulge in, Soory you are confised about this simple and obvious difference hope you understand now

Bless you

[The Adogmatist]

LOL get your facts right . Muslims dont stone Kaabah.

Muslims , throw stones at Jamarat to signify their defiance of the Devil. This symbolizes the trials experienced by Abraham while he decided whether to sacrifice his son as demanded by Allah. The Devil challenged him three times, and three times Abraham refused. Each pillar marks the location of one of these refusals . Thus , Its the Christian religion which involves worship of a man ,his mother and his 2 co-gods and thus is Pagan in origin

Hm, Abraham really didn't move around much did he?

Anyway, I think "pagan" is usually used to say "every religion except for mine", and so it doesn't really hold any more meaning than that. All religions are pagan in the eyes of other religions. Which makes sense, because why would you only believe in your religion if you didn't think all the other ones were outdated, blatantly flawed and ridiculous?

[جوري]

Gotta love conversations which go, verbatim, 'your religion is more pagan than mine!'.

Your religion is paganistic bar none!

Gossemer
Treu Christians do not use eggs to celebrate Easter and similar for Christmas that is just a tool of rampant capatilsit consumerism which many secular people indulge in, Soory you are confised about this simple and obvious difference hope you understand now

Bless you

did your god ask you to celebrate his death or birth for that matter? if he didn't then frankly anything you incorporate whether you think you thought it up or borrowed it is in fact paganistic.. you appear to be the one who is confused!

all the best

[جوري]

Hm, Abraham really didn't move around much did he?

Anyway, I think "pagan" is usually used to say "every religion except for mine", and so it doesn't really hold any more meaning than that. All religions are pagan in the eyes of other religions. Which makes sense, because why would you only believe in your religion if you didn't think all the other ones were outdated, blatantly flawed and ridiculous?

Pagan is a term applied to folks not of monotheistic religions, Jews, madeans, sabeans, Muslims etc.. Christianity alleges monotheistic origins but worship a three headed man/god who died and incorporate practices from paganistic religions like Zoroastrianism, greek mythology, pharonic religions etc
Perhaps a scratch beneath the superficial might elucidate things for you better..

all the best

[Supreme]

Gossemer
Treu Christians do not use eggs to celebrate Easter and similar for Christmas that is just a tool of rampant capatilsit consumerism which many secular people indulge in, Soory you are confised about this simple and obvious difference hope you understand now

Bless you

Who are you talking about- 'true' Christians? May I advise using against using such language, Christians can easily celebrate the true meanings of both festivals whilst also enjoying the more secular elements.

[Supreme]

Your religion is paganistic bar none!

'Bar none' is used in the wrong context here- bar means except. Rather, a more grammatically acceptable statement would be 'Your religion is paganistic- period!'

practices from paganistic religions like Zoroastrianism, greek mythology, pharonic religions etc

Zoroastranism was the first monotheistic religion in recorded history- your erroneous concept of 'paganism' is limited to merely being synonymous with 'un-Islamic', and even then it's applied incorrectly.

[جوري]

'Bar none' is used in the wrong context here- bar means except. Rather, a more grammatically acceptable statement would be 'Your religion is paganistic- period!'

Etymology

• Possibly a shortened form of "to bar none" or "barring none".

[edit] Adverb

bar none

1. (idiomatic) Without exception; excluding nothing else of the same kind.
   
   • 1913, Zane Grey, Desert Gold, ch. 4, Mexican horses are the finest in the world, bar none.
   • 1922, James Joyce, Ulysses, ch. 16, . . . Ireland, or something of that sort, which he described in his lengthy dissertation as the richest country bar none on the face of God's earth.
   
   but if it makes you feel any better your religion is paganistic period!

Zoroastranism was the first monotheistic religion in recorded history- your erroneous concept of 'paganism' is limited to merely being synonymous with 'un-Islamic', and even then it's applied incorrectly.

Zoroastrianism, according to tradition, was founded by Zoroaster after he received a vision in which he was introduced to Ahura Mazda, and told of the great God and his adversary. He saw other radiant figures too, but could not see his shadow on the ground, a sign which convince Zoroaster his vision was authentic. This was the first of several visions in which Ahura Mazda conversed with him. The vision is alluded to in the Cathas (Y 43) and briefly described in the Pahlavi work (Zadspram XX-XXI). It was the knowledge gained from these visions which caused Zoroaster to designate Ahura Mazda as master of asha, order, righteousness, and justice; proclaiming him to be the one uncreated God, existing eternally, and Creator of all else that is good including all other beneficent divinities.

Read more here if interested:

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/ar...strianism.html

1. How Is
   "Goth"
   1,000 Years Old?

Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: \ˈpā-gən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, civilian, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix — more at pact
Date: 14th century
1 : heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion


poly = means many, multiple.. so when you don't believe in a monotheistic God or when your god has an adversary or two other heads it makes you a pagan!


all the best

[Supreme]

If that definition is correct, why would you classify Christians and Zoroastrians as pagans? Both are monotheistic religions. I'm not insulting you Gossamer, I'm just curious.

[جوري]

Did you read the definition, specifically this part: : a follower of a polytheistic religion
and further the definition of what a polytheist is?

I am seldom insulted by anything any member here writes here (it i just a forum) although I can be annoyed when folks wear out my patience and time!

all the best

[freethinking]

Your religion is paganistic bar none!




did your god ask you to celebrate his death or birth for that matter? if he didn't then frankly anything you incorporate whether you think you thought it up or borrowed it is in fact paganistic.. you appear to be the one who is confused!

all the best

Yes he did, see the last Supper, it is in all the Gospels

Bless you

[Supreme]

Did you read the definition, specifically this part: : a follower of a polytheistic religion
and further the definition of what a polytheist is?

I am seldom insulted by anything any member here writes here (it i just a forum) although I can be annoyed when folks wear out my patience and time!

all the best

Yes, I read the definition:

pa·gan (pgn)
n.
1. An adherent of a polytheistic religion in antiquity, especially when viewed in contrast to an adherent of a monotheistic religion.
2. A Neopagan.
3. Offensive
a. One who has no religion.
b. An adherent of a religion other than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
4. A hedonist.

Your assertion is erroneous, at least when we look at the semantics of the word 'pagan'.

[جوري]

Yes he did, see the last Supper, it is in all the Gospels

Bless you

Show me the passage where your god states I am going to forsake myself and I desire my worshipers to celebrate the occasion!

Yes, I read the definition:


Your assertion is erroneous, at least when we look at the semantics of the word 'pagan'.

Not everyone subscribes to 'semantics' especially considering that the criteria for a pagan is a polytheist both Christianity and Zoroastrianism are paganistic in that regard because both have more than one God.. it doesn't matter how many tantrums you throw about that.. your beliefs and logic are at odds if you think that Jesus (god the father) and the holy spirit aren't separate entities but three separate ineffectual gods each with his own will, one praying not to be forsaken, one forsaking (imagine his own 'son' what he'd do to the rest of the foolish humanity) and the last hovering around saul because he couldn't chose apostles that will shoulder the responsibility while he was 'alive'

all the best

[Supreme]

Not everyone subscribes to 'semantics' especially considering that the criteria for a pagan is a polytheist both Christianity and Zoroastrianism are paganistic in that regard because both have more than one God.. it doesn't matter how many tantrums you throw about that.. your beliefs and logic are at odds if you think that Jesus (god the father) and the holy spirit aren't separate entities but three separate ineffectual gods each with his own will, one praying not to be forsaken, one forsaking (imagine his own 'son' what he'd do to the rest of the foolish humanity) and the last hovering around saul because he couldn't chose apostles that will shoulder the responsibility while he was 'alive'

I guessed you hadn't a clue about semantics the moment you started accusing religions of being paganistic in nature. Which is fine. I'm willing to put it on the long list of things you are generally no good at understanding, along with Christian beliefs, Zoroastrian beliefs and when conceding defeat is a good time.

[جوري]

I guessed you hadn't a clue about semantics the moment you started accusing religions of being paganistic in nature. Which is fine. I'm willing to put it on the long list of things you are generally no good at understanding, along with Christian beliefs, Zoroastrian beliefs and when conceding defeat is a good time.

lol.. you have to have a group of theologians and mathematicians working on the conundrum that is the trinity. I am yet to meet with a christian that 'understands' their basic tenets.. frankly the more convoluted your tale the less likely and that is actually lesson number one in logic!

all the best

[Supreme]

lol.. you have to have a group of theologians and mathematicians working on the conundrum that is the trinity. I am yet to meet with a christian that 'understands' their basic tenets.. frankly the more convoluted your tale the less likely and that is actually lesson number one in logic!

all the best

Of course! Because, when we use logic, we can logically deduce that there's a magic skygod who communicates through Middle Eastern prophets every few hundred years to a message in flowerly language, albeit to no avail, as it will soon get corrupted. We can also logically deduce that this skygod has low self esteem and demands to be worshipped, and also communicates exclusively to a select few semite prophets who hear voices in their heads about meaningnless rituals, and that this skygod entertains himself by burning his creation in an eternal flame for sinning, ie having common sense and free will. It all makes perfect sense when you think about it...

And yes, the general message of this post is the pot calling the kettle black.

[جوري]

Of course! Because, when we use logic, we can logically deduce that there's a magic skygod who communicates through Middle Eastern prophets every few hundred years to a message in flowerly language, albeit to no avail, as it will soon get corrupted. We can also logically deduce that this skygod has low self esteem and demands to be worshipped, and also communicates exclusively to a select few semite prophets who hear voices in their heads about meaningnless rituals, and that this skygod entertains himself by burning his creation in an eternal flame for sinning, ie having common sense and free will. It all makes perfect sense when you think about it...

And yes, the general message of this post is the pot calling the kettle black.

I have no idea what this drivel means.. I don't know what 'skygod' is..

the only God is as he described himself:



all the best

[freethinking]

I have no idea what this drivel means.. I don't know what 'skygod' is..

the only God is as he described himself:




all the best

Dear Skye
I do not wish to upset you but I largely agree with Supreme, you seem to not take time to examine and check elaboration of what is being said by non muslims on these posts, instead you just ignore the central message and make petty dismissals.
For your own sake pls take time to ask for clarification of that which you do not understand.
Just ask God to sent the Holy spirit to help you

So many of similar to you people seem to have a real problem understanding that Christianity is not a panthiest belief ( and pls also note I do not use the word religion which is nowhere in the Holy Bible, I have a true Spiritual two way relationship with God Almighty Allelulia). There is no polytheistic ideas in Christianity. God is indeed ONE, yet amazingly three in One. Iis not about three Gods But One God with three powerful aspects. Jesus defeated Satan with his mission on earth to set us free. The Holy Spirit within us makes us fireproof against sinful or evil attacks. God is Glorious God is Great, God is Awesome and Suprme ruler of ALL insider and outside this Universe and this eternity. God is inside and outside time
The reason people get confused about the Holy Trinity is that too many people have explained it as 3 "persons in 1" but to think of God as a person is just a humanistic way of trying to explain this amazing and Glorious all powerful and loving Creator of us and everything.
God is one according to deeper Christian revelation. It is just that there is no way to describe the majestic Trinity for us until we go to the Father. However in the last Book of the Bible, which is Revelations (and is the revelation Of Jesus, after his death and ressurection and ascension to heaven)
What does any one make of the number of the beast which in that book is 666?
It of course represents the Unholy trinity of the beast of the earth sea and sky
I also have sadly seen that the Quran does not seem to recognise the Truuth about us Humans, i.e that we are Flesh, Soul and Spirit
It took time for me to understand this so I pray to God that you will all find these loving Truths

Bless youi all

[marwen]

... God is indeed ONE, yet amazingly three in One. Iis not about three Gods But One God with three powerful aspects. Jesus defeated Satan with his mission on earth to set us free. The Holy Spirit within us makes us fireproof against sinful or evil attacks. God is Glorious God is Great, God is Awesome and Suprme ruler of ALL insider and outside this Universe and this eternity. God is inside and outside time ...

I have a question for clarification.
Please don't feel offended, I'm just trying to understand, and may be it's because my ignorance that I ask the following question :
You are you saying that : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the same God. The Father and The Son are the same. How can Jesus(as) be the son of himself ?
Is there something I missed ? please be kind to explain to me.

God bless you !

[جوري]

Dear Skye
I do not wish to upset you but I largely agree with Supreme, you seem to not take time to examine and check elaboration of what is being said by non muslims on these posts, instead you just ignore the central message and make petty dismissals.

your agreement with an 18 year old doesn't come as a surprise.. in fact I expect that you need to have a certain level of intellect to be a 'practicing christian'

For your own sake pls take time to ask for clarification of that which you do not understand.
Just ask God to sent the Holy spirit to help you

someone who worships a man who forsake himself should rather be concerned with his own sake not that of others!

So many of similar to you people seem to have a real problem understanding that Christianity is not a panthiest belief ( and pls also note I do not use the word religion which is nowhere in the Holy Bible, I have a true Spiritual two way relationship with God Almighty Allelulia). There is no polytheistic ideas in Christianity. God is indeed ONE, yet amazingly three in One. Iis not about three Gods But One God with three powerful aspects. Jesus defeated Satan with his mission on earth to set us free. The Holy Spirit within us makes us fireproof against sinful or evil attacks. God is Glorious God is Great, God is Awesome and Suprme ruler of ALL insider and outside this Universe and this eternity. God is inside and outside time

you say god is one yet worship a three headed god whom you name jesus. God's name isn't Jesus and God doesn't die!

The reason people get confused about the Holy Trinity is that too many people have explained it as 3 "persons in 1" but to think of God as a person is just a humanistic way of trying to explain this amazing and Glorious all powerful and loving Creator of us and everything.

God doesn't need to be human and wasn't human in any of the preceding monotheistic religions spanning back to Adam!

God is one according to deeper Christian revelation. It is just that there is no way to describe the majestic Trinity for us until we go to the Father. However in the last Book of the Bible, which is Revelations (and is the revelation Of Jesus, after his death and ressurection and ascension to heaven)

Yes we know there is no way to describe it, your point being?

What does any one make of the number of the beast which in that book is 666?
It of course represents the Unholy trinity of the beast of the earth sea and sky
I also have sadly seen that the Quran does not seem to recognise the Truuth about us Humans, i.e that we are Flesh, Soul and Spirit

Someone who can't explain the 'truths' about his own religions shouldn't really be making the leap forward to other religions!

It took time for me to understand this so I pray to God that you will all find these loving Truths

Bless youi all

I think your time would be best vested praying for yourself.. I don't accept the prayers of paganists.

all the best

[freethinking]

I have a question for clarification.
Please don't feel offended, I'm just trying to understand, and may be it's because my ignorance that I ask the following question :
You are you saying that : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the same God. The Father and The Son are the same. How can Jesus(as) be the son of himself ?
Is there something I missed ? please be kind to explain to me.


God bless you !

Thank you for your very considerate question, God Bless you.
No I dont belive Jesus is the son of himself, when he came to earth, he referred to his Father and was doing his Fathers will. It was necesary for Gods universal law included that the way to clean sins was through a blood sacrifice which Jesus as a lamb of God did without any resistance.
Jsus could easliy have denied the charges brought against him and not have endured that awful ( in human terms) tormentful suffering and human death.
The Trinity is a mystery to me to fully comprehend but it does make sense to me that God's beautiful Holy Spirit comes to us whilst God remains in Heaven and perhaps is even taking care of another universe and another eternity whilst his Son will rule this one.

God the Creator is so amazing and we as humans, how can we comprehend all the amazing glory of God? I am quite happy to accept this by faith alone although I do have a two way relationship with God already.
I ask God clean questions and when it is right by God and By Gods Grace, the right time for me to know, I get answers. I have only started getting to know God for almost 5 years.
Many years ago I was raised as a catholic but left that church in my teens. I am beginnig to know God enough to start Truely loving God in my heart and Spirit.

I have learnt powerful lessons from God directly such as What one declares verbally (By WORD) about themselves is Very powerul indeed.
For example someone who verbally declares they are an alcoholic and belives this about themselves will continue to be subject to demonic influences which will jump on such a declaration and push that person to love thier sins; which if they do opens the door to possession.
However if they meet a true christian and listen they can be rescued. Not by the person But by the Glorious power of God's Holy Spirit.
We humans are not just Flesh but Flesh Soul and Spirit.
I hope this helps you, it is beautiful to have some mysteries in this life that we will kinow better in the next I belive

God bless you Brother

[Supreme]

I have no idea what this drivel means.. I don't know what 'skygod' is..

the only God is as he described himself:



all the best

Don't worry- I've come to conclude that you don't understand much at all, hence why I included the little sentence at the bottom- which is an adage for hypocrisy!

[جوري]

Don't worry-

I seldom worry least of which over random individuals on the forum.. you seem to project alot here?

I've come to conclude that you don't understand much at all, hence why I included the little sentence at the bottom- which is an adage for hypocrisy!

whatever you need to tell yourself to get through this is A OK by me!

all the best

[Pygoscelis]

I have a question for clarification.
Please don't feel offended, I'm just trying to understand, and may be it's because my ignorance that I ask the following question :
You are you saying that : The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the same God. The Father and The Son are the same. How can Jesus(as) be the son of himself ?
Is there something I missed ? please be kind to explain to me.

God bless you !

The concept of the Trinity makes coherent sense. Three forms, three aspects of the same being. If you think the Christian trinity is complicated, look into Hindu beliefs :p

But where things go off the rails is with the Jesus story. The Trinity renders it incoherent. Without the Trinity you have Jesus championing man and sacrificing himself to get God to forgive man's sins. But with the trinity you get God sacrificig himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind - incoherent.

[freethinking]

The concept of the Trinity makes coherent sense. Three forms, three aspects of the same being. If you think the Christian trinity is complicated, look into Hindu beliefs :p

But where things go off the rails is with the Jesus story. The Trinity renders it incoherent. Without the Trinity you have Jesus championing man and sacrificing himself to get God to forgive man's sins. But with the trinity you get God sacrificig himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind - incoherent.

Bless you if it is incoherant to you.
Do you recognise theat Jesus came down in Human form and took on Human form to do this as he knew without God we would all contune tro be corrupted. It was a Spiritual battle with satan and foretold in the OT. When he then Ascended he was back in heaven,
God's mysteries are for humans at this stage but sall will be revealed

Bless you

[Pygoscelis]

So long as Jesus is half-man and champion for man, and God is judge, it makes sense. But as soon as God and Jesus are one, the champion and judge are the same guy, it becomes nothing more than showmanship (and it takes humanity out of the equation entirely). God could just as easily snapped his fingers and pronounced "I forgive man", but instead we have this elaborate ceremony of false sacrifice. I say false sacrifice, because Jesus simply rises again. He didn't perish for your sins, he just had a rough weekend.

[glo]

Hi Pygo

With Easter only just gone I have had similar thoughts recently.
Why did Jesus have to die such a horrible death on the cross? Why could an omnipotent God not just say "I forgive your sins. My relationship with you is restored and here is my new covenant with you"?

I would love to hear the thoughts of other Christians here, just as I have asked that question in other forums.

But then, last night I happened to be reading about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and the Passover Meal in Exodus.
It struck me that in the 21st century Jesus' crucifixion may seem cruel and unnecessary - but in the context of the Jewish lifestyle and celebrations (at least at the time of his life) the symbolism and similarities are very powerful:

The passover lamb, by which blood on the wooden beams God's people are saved and eventually led into the promised land.
The sacrifice of the first-born lamb for the salvation of all.

On top of that, I think there are instructions in Jesus' actions to his followers - about taking up your cross and doing God's will; about 'dying to yourself' and fulfilling a greater purpose; about self-sacrifice for the greater good of others.

Like I said, these are just my own personal ponderings. I may be right or wrong or somewhere in-between. (I usually am)

But I think there is more to Jesus' death on the cross than God sacrificing himself 'unnecessarily'.
The crucifixion is important on more levels than that.

[freethinking]

Hi Pygo

With Easter only just gone I have had similar thoughts recently.
Why did Jesus have to die such a horrible death on the cross? Why could an omnipotent God not just say "I forgive your sins. My relationship with you is restored and here is my new covenant with you"?

I would love to hear the thoughts of other Christians here, just as I have asked that question in other forums.

But then, last night I happened to be reading about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and the Passover Meal in Exodus.
It struck me that in the 21st century Jesus' crucifixion may seem cruel and unnecessary - but in the context of the Jewish lifestyle and celebrations (at least at the time of his life) the symbolism and similarities are very powerful:

The passover lamb, by which blood on the wooden beams God's people are saved and eventually led into the promised land.
The sacrifice of the first-born lamb for the salvation of all.

On top of that, I think there are instructions in Jesus' actions to his followers - about taking up your cross and doing God's will; about 'dying to yourself' and fulfilling a greater purpose; about self-sacrifice for the greater good of others.

Like I said, these are just my own personal ponderings. I may be right or wrong or somewhere in-between. (I usually am)

But I think there is more to Jesus' death on the cross than God sacrificing himself 'unnecessarily'.
The crucifixion is important on more levels than that.

My revleation of why that was necessary is that according to God's universal laws, the wages of sin is death. Before Jesus how this the jewish people attone for there sins?
By blood sacrifices with animals. By Blood they were cleansed which is the way God made this universe for when he first created it was perfect and the first humans did not know any sins nor did all the angels before the rebellion.

Bless you

[جوري]

lol.. this is very strange, why doesn't the death of the individual act as an expiation of ones sin why do you need the death of god for that? furthermore why does god need blood sacrifices, does he need animals? their blood or a sacrifice all together? what very unusual pagan practices is this.. to say that god wants these things is to allege that he has needs.. God is self-sustaining, the absolute and eternal he has no needs least of which for petty sacrifices.

Moses once asked God when he takes a rest (as you are so fond of him resting on the 'sabbath, which you yourself don't keep) and God told Moses to take bottles and fill them and hold them all night.. Moses (p) tried his earnest every time sleep would overtake him he'd wake himself up to hold the bottles from falling, then eventually Moses slept and the glasses broke.. as such God told Moses that if he ever took a rest the universe would collapse upon itself.. and you have him suckling for a x number of years, and then *****ing the earth for not bearing fruits and then self-immolating and dying for a few days for a completely nonsensical piece about need of blood sacrifices.. I wonder when the christian brain will ever evolve to catch up with logic let alone the rest of the world!

[Predator]

lol.. this is very strange, why doesn't the death of the individual act as an expiation of ones sin why do you need the death of god for that? furthermore why does god need blood sacrifices, does he need animals? their blood or a sacrifice all together? what very unusual pagan practices is this.. to say that god wants these things is to allege that he has needs.. God is self-sustaining, the absolute and eternal he has no needs least of which for petty sacrifices.

lol, Which belief do you think is more strange in their concept of salvation - Christians by the "sacrifice"/escape of their lord or hindus who "wash" their sins in the filthy ganges

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/...100305468.html

[freethinking]

lol.. this is very strange, why doesn't the death of the individual act as an expiation of ones sin why do you need the death of god for that? furthermore why does god need blood sacrifices, does he need animals? their blood or a sacrifice all together? what very unusual pagan practices is this.. to say that god wants these things is to allege that he has needs.. God is self-sustaining, the absolute and eternal he has no needs least of which for petty sacrifices.

Moses once asked God when he takes a rest (as you are so fond of him resting on the 'sabbath, which you yourself don't keep) and God told Moses to take bottles and fill them and hold them all night.. Moses (p) tried his earnest every time sleep would overtake him he'd wake himself up to hold the bottles from falling, then eventually Moses slept and the glasses broke.. as such God told Moses that if he ever took a rest the universe would collapse upon itself.. and you have him suckling for a x number of years, and then *****ing the earth for not bearing fruits and then self-immolating and dying for a few days for a completely nonsensical piece about need of blood sacrifices.. I wonder when the christian brain will ever evolve to catch up with logic let alone the rest of the world!

You mus understand this was the most demonstarative huma understandanding why to show Gods amazing LOVE for us.
God gave us life first to libe with complete free will and knew once satan rebelled that we would with our complete free will have confidence to think we can live independedntly,iI.e. In sin with or without God and satan works hard to distract us. If you don't belive these truths you truely do not know God

[جوري]

You mus understand this was the most demonstarative huma understandanding why to show Gods amazing LOVE for us.
God gave us life first to libe with complete free will and knew once satan rebelled that we would with our complete free will have confidence to think we can live independedntly,iI.e. In sin with or without God and satan works hard to distract us. If you don't belive these truths you truely do not know God

That makes no grammatical, logical, spiritual or theological sense.. Does God love the ignorant? I'd think not especially when we're provided with a brain to reason!
you are so under-educated and you reflect poorly on the Christians although I am not certain any of them are able to articulate their beliefs better than you.. it is all a spin of the same bizarre nonsensical theme!

good luck with all of that!

[gmcbroom]

God loves us all actually. We're all welcome at our Father's table. The differences is in how one approaches God. For the Jews they follow the law. For Christians we approach through the Lord Jesus Christ. For Muslims I have no idea I thought it was through Mohammeds teachings but now I'm not so sure. Each has their own way. Now as I Christian I can't say that you won't reach God. Because that would be juding you and that honor isn't mine. I just know that christians approach the Father through the Son. I realize it doesn't make sense. But it's a matter of faith and a mystery. Some accept it and some don't.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

[IAmZamzam]

You want to know how we approach God? Directly, dang it! With the apparent unique knowledge that we need no mediator, no outlet, no intermediary party. God is omnipotent, perfectly good, and all-encompassing: such a being is not limited to any requirements, and is willing to forgive us no matter what, as it says in the hadith: "When you walk to Me, I will run to you." No sacrifice needed--not a thing needed but God's own grace. True grace and not the self-contradictory Christian definition of forgiveness by punishment. This is why I will never again favor Christianity over Islam.

[gmcbroom]

Yahya Sulaiman,
So do you practice repentence?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[S.Belle]

I have a question i didnt understand when i was a christian and i still fail to understand now that im muslim Alhamdulilah..but what does easter egg hunts, chocolate bunnies, etc. have to do with Jesus "resurrecting"?

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum/Peace everyone,

Some replies in this thread... :mmokay:

Can someone just confirm something for me, do Christians believe that Easter has no relation to Paganism or Pagan origin?

[gmcbroom]

Mila,
They don't have anything to do with Jesus's resurrection. In the Eastern Catholic Churches its actually called Pascha. The Easter title with chocolate eggs, and bunnies has been a contentious subject for centuries and is the cause of many excommunications. Personally, I'll eat the chocolate as I like candy but it isn't for any religious reason. I go to the Good Friday vigil to mourn the death of My Lord, and I go to the Pascha service to celebrate his resurrection. As for Easter they call it that too as well as Pascha. Though one makes more sense than the other.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

[IAmZamzam]

So do you practice repentence?

Yes, I do, with the understanding that due to God's mercy that's all that's necessary.

[Issa Abdullah]

Christians follow the lies of the Devil Paul may Allah (SWT) curse him. Easter is a pagan practice that false man-made evil Christianity asks it follows to take part in. Jesus resurrection what a lie for Allah (SWT) Says in the Holy Quran the Book of God not the man-made bible. 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- 4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- 4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- Subhan'Allah in this verse Isa (PBUH) jesus will be a witness against them, yet they the Christians still worship Isa (PBUH) jesus & his Mother as gods. Allah (SWT) Says in the Holy Quran 5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 5:117 "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. Subhan'Allah in this verse Isa (PBUH) jesus rejects the lies of Christianity. I hope the Christians wake up to start worshiping the One & Only god Allah (SWT). Let’s all pray that the conquest of Rome will happen in our life time so that we may see truth (Islam) destroy falsehood (Christianity) like how it was done in Constantinople. Both are in hadiths says of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) its just a matter of time when Rome falls.

[Grace Seeker]

Asalaamu Alaikum/Peace everyone,

Some replies in this thread... :mmokay:

Can someone just confirm something for me, do Christians believe that Easter has no relation to Paganism or Pagan origin?

Speaking for as a Christian, I can confirm that my celebration of Jesus' resurrection has no relation to paganism and has it's origin in what believe to a historical truth -- that Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried, and that he then was resurrected from the dead.As to Resurrection Sunday being commonly called Easter Sunday in the English speaking world, I recognize that the origin of the term Easter is from the the Old English word Ēastre or Ēostre and that this name refers to Eostur-monath, a month of the Germanic calendar during which Jesus resurrection would most likely occured and that for this reason the celebration of it became associated with the name of the month even though the month was itself named after the goddess Ēostre of Anglo-Saxon paganism. Despite that connection, I assert that whether called Domingo de Resurrección, Ostern, Pasen, Pasqua, Páscoa, Pâques, Πάσχα, פסחא , عيد الفصح ,Pääsiäinen, Påsk, Påske, Wielkanoc, Paşti, Húsvét, Пасхальный, Paskalya, 復活節, อีสเตอร์ , 부활절, Lễ Phục Sinh, Pasko ng Pagkabuhay, Paskah, Pak, or Easter that what Christians are celebrating has nothing to do with any pagan goddess, but is a celebration of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.

[MustafaMc]

Speaking for as a Christian, I can confirm that my celebration of Jesus' resurrection has no relation to paganism and has it's origin in what believe to a historical truth -- that Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried, and that he then was resurrected from the dead.

In your celebration of Easter, if Good Friday was truly good, why are Christians mad at the Jews for supposedly crucifying Jesus (as) on that day?

If Jesus (as) was dead and buried, then who resurrected him?

If the Father resurrected him, doesn't that show that the Father and Jesus are 2 beings and not one?

If Jesus (as) ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, does that not again demonstrate 2 beings and not one? I can talk to myself, but I can't sit beside myself.

[Ramadhan]

^ sorry off topic, but how on earth was GS able to post while his account disabled?

[SlaveOfGod]

:sl:


It's a bit similar as to why Christians celebrate Christmas...

^ sorry off topic, but how on earth was GS able to post while his account disabled?

Maybe he posted this before his accoun was disabled? Idk..


:wa:

[Ramadhan]

It's a bit similar as to why Christians celebrate Christmas...

exactly.

Maybe he posted this before his accoun was disabled? Idk..

His account had been disabled before, so I guess he had his account re-activated temporarily.

[ardianto]

His account had been disabled before, so I guess he had his account re-activated temporarily.

His account is disabled on request. He can re-activate his account anytime.

[Hiroshi]

In your celebration of Easter,

As a Jehovah's Witness, I do not celebrate Easter with it's strange pagan symbols of rabbits and eggs. The mention of "Easter" at Acts 12:4 in the King James Version is a gross mistranslation. The word there should be rendered: "Passover".

However, in Luke 22:19 Jesus commands that we hold a memorial service of his death with bread and wine and JWs do that once a year on the anniversary of the night when he died according to the Jewish callendar.

if Good Friday was truly good, why are Christians mad at the Jews for supposedly crucifying Jesus (as) on that day?

Some who say they are Christians might be completely mad.

If Jesus (as) was dead and buried, then who resurrected him?

The Father (Galatians 1:1).

If the Father resurrected him, doesn't that show that the Father and Jesus are 2 beings and not one?

Yes. Good reasoning.

If Jesus (as) ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, does that not again demonstrate 2 beings and not one? I can talk to myself, but I can't sit beside myself.

Sadly, that argument would not convince a Trinitarian. They see Father and Son as having one essence (ousia) and one substance (hypostasis). Actually though, Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is only: "the figure of his substance" (Catholic Douay). A figure or image is not identical with the original.

[Hiroshi]

Speaking for as a Christian, I can confirm that my celebration of Jesus' resurrection has no relation to paganism and has it's origin in what believe to a historical truth -- that Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried, and that he then was resurrected from the dead.As to Resurrection Sunday being commonly called Easter Sunday in the English speaking world, I recognize that the origin of the term Easter is from the the Old English word Ēastre or Ēostre and that this name refers to Eostur-monath, a month of the Germanic calendar during which Jesus resurrection would most likely occured and that for this reason the celebration of it became associated with the name of the month even though the month was itself named after the goddess Ēostre of Anglo-Saxon paganism. Despite that connection, I assert that whether called Domingo de Resurrección, Ostern, Pasen, Pasqua, Páscoa, Pâques, Πάσχα, פסחא , عيد الفصح ,Pääsiäinen, Påsk, Påske, Wielkanoc, Paşti, Húsvét, Пасхальный, Paskalya, 復活節, อีสเตอร์ , 부활절, Lễ Phục Sinh, Pasko ng Pagkabuhay, Paskah, Pak, or Easter that what Christians are celebrating has nothing to do with any pagan goddess, but is a celebration of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.

Why then do we have at Easter time the chocolate eggs, rabbits and hot cross buns -- all relics of pagan worship?

[Grace Seeker]

In your celebration of Easter, if Good Friday was truly good, why are Christians mad at the Jews for supposedly crucifying Jesus (as) on that day?

If Jesus (as) was dead and buried, then who resurrected him?

If the Father resurrected him, doesn't that show that the Father and Jesus are 2 beings and not one?

If Jesus (as) ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, does that not again demonstrate 2 beings and not one? I can talk to myself, but I can't sit beside myself.

I've highlighted the above section that seems to most relate to the original question and have attempted below to provide an answer based on Christian scriptures:

John 21
9 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” 20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

[Grace Seeker]

Why then do we have at Easter time the chocolate eggs, rabbits and hot cross buns -- all relics of pagan worship?

There is no good reason for it. Such things are not a part of a celebration of the resurrection; they are little more than people trying to satiate their own human appetites even as they claim to be celebrating a work of God. That it leads to the sort of question you ask is evidence that they are more of a distraction from than a celebration of the resurrection.

[Ramadhan]

There is no good reason for it. Such things are not a part of a celebration of the resurrection; they are little more than people trying to satiate their own human appetites even as they claim to be celebrating a work of God. That it leads to the sort of question you ask is evidence that they are more of a distraction from than a celebration of the resurrection

You must be in the minority.

I haven't heard church establishments condemning eggs, rabbits and buns as parts and parcels of the easter celebration.
Just like christmas.
Tell me if major church establishments have condemned the use of trees, santas, and deers?

To me, it seems the churches are quite happy to get christianity popular, no matter how far the ways and methods are from the actual teachings of jesus (pbuh).
Talk about irony!

[Hiroshi]

John 21
9 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

Jesus did not resurrect himself. Acts 2:27 NIV says: "because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." God did not abandon Jesus to the grave. But, by implication, if God had abandoned Jesus there then Jesus would still lie helpless in his tomb. Galatians 1:1 says clearly that the Father resurrected Jesus.

John 2:19 can be understood in the light of other scriptures. On one occasion a woman was miraculously healed and Jesus said to her "Your faith has made you well" (Matthew 9:22; Mark 5:34). So then, did she heal herself? No. It was power from God that healed her because she had faith. Similarly, in the case of Jesus, because of the obedience and faithfulness on his part, God had every reason and justification to resurrect him from the dead. Jesus' actions gave him that assurance so Jesus could speak of it as if he would raise himself.

[Hiroshi]

There is no good reason for it. Such things are not a part of a celebration of the resurrection; they are little more than people trying to satiate their own human appetites even as they claim to be celebrating a work of God. That it leads to the sort of question you ask is evidence that they are more of a distraction from than a celebration of the resurrection.

Jesus gave a clear command to celebrate his death (1 Corinthians 11:23-25) with unleavened bread and red wine. But nowhere are we commanded to celebrate his resurrection.

[YusufNoor]

Quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
John 21
9 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

IF you could "raise yourself from the dead," then you weren't dead. if you are dead, you can't do anything, so if you were in a state in which you COULD do something, you weren't dead, you had life.

so IF you claim Jesus "raised himself from the dead," then he couldn't have been dead. ergo NO sacrifice! you can't have it both ways. you can't be BOTH dead and alive at the same time.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I do not celebrate Easter with it's strange pagan symbols of rabbits and eggs. The mention of "Easter" at Acts 12:4 in the King James Version is a gross mistranslation. The word there should be rendered: "Passover".

if you check the margin in the King James, you will see the word Passover. the translators of the King James were purposefully trying to erase the "Judaism" of the early church because logic would tell you that Christians should then follow the Judaism of the early church. [a Jehovah Witness showed me that over 40 years ago.]

makes one wonder why JWs don't keep kosher. [ i know they don't eat forbidden foods, but they DON'T "avoid foods sacrificed to other gods."]

:wa:

[Hiroshi]

if you check the margin in the King James, you will see the word Passover. the translators of the King James were purposefully trying to erase the "Judaism" of the early church because logic would tell you that Christians should then follow the Judaism of the early church. [a Jehovah Witness showed me that over 40 years ago.]

makes one wonder why JWs don't keep kosher. [ i know they don't eat forbidden foods, but they DON'T "avoid foods sacrificed to other gods."]

Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 8:4 "So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world”". Because of this he goes on to say in verse 8: "food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do."

I believe that in Corinth, if you went to the meat market, it would be difficult to buy meat that had not been sacrificed to idols due to the prevalence of idolatry in that city. Paul is pointing out that really meat is just meat. It doesn't change or become defiled because of an idol since an idol is really powerless. However, Paul goes on to point out that some newly converted Christians who were formerly idol worshippers might find such eating of meat objectionable. Paul concludes in verse 13 that he would rather never eat meat at all than offend a fellow Christian.

So it seems that there is nothing wrong with eating foods sacrificed to other gods as long as it doesn't offend someone else. The command at Acts 15:29 is more to be understood as avoiding idolatry itself than the food associated with it.

[Hiroshi]

makes one wonder why JWs don't keep kosher.

I thing that Jews go beyond what is required in the Mosaic Law in their insistence on what must be kosher. We do not have to go to such lengths to follow their example as long as the animal has been properly bled.

[MustafaMc]

IF you could "raise yourself from the dead," then you weren't dead. if you are dead, you can't do anything, so if you were in a state in which you COULD do something, you weren't dead, you had life.

so IF you claim Jesus "raised himself from the dead," then he couldn't have been dead. ergo NO sacrifice! you can't have it both ways. you can't be BOTH dead and alive at the same time.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

[Woodrow]

Just slightly remembering my Catholic years. Easter is the oldest holiday in the Catholic Church according to tradition first celebrated sometime between 65-70 AD until sometime in the 4th Century only 2 holidays were celebrated Easter and Pentecost Sunday. Easter being the more important celebration. During the early years none of the familiar symbols used today were known. It was basically a day of fast and dedicated to prayer.

The Easter egg has an interesting history. Eggs were forbidden to be eaten by Catholics during lent as was meat. To preserve the eggs laid during lent they were boiled, they became a main part of the Easter food on Easter Sunday when lent ended. This eventually got wrapped around and mixed up with the pagan beliefs about eggs being a symbol of fertility and rebirth. this eventually worked it's way into becoming a quasi religious symbol with the Eggs representing the resurrection of Jesus(as). It was some time in the middle ages decorating them came into use. The first chocolate Easter egg was made in the 1870s by Cadburys. Prior to that some were made possibly as early as the late 1700s, but milk chordate had not come into production so the chocolate then was grainy and not very sweet. Not as popular as the Chocolate of today.

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus gave a clear command to celebrate his death (1 Corinthians 11:23-25) with unleavened bread and red wine. But nowhere are we commanded to celebrate his resurrection.

Yet, Peter's sermon at Pentecost itself includes a celebration of Jesus' resurrection. But you are right, no one is under compulsion to celebrate it on one special day for in fact every Sunday service is a celebration of "the Lord's Day", so named because of belief that Sunday was the day of his resurrection. Still, in light of what the Resurrection accomplished, seems rather strange to me to not remember the anniversary of Jesus' rising from the dead. Of course, I've already argued above that I don't think chocolate rabbits have much to do with remembering Jesus' resurrection. Easter eggs would have once made sense (see Woodrow's post), but many have turned even these into distractions rather than means to remember. For me THAT we celebrate the Resurrection seems a no brainer. The question of HOW we go about celebrating it, I think, could use some better discernment.

[MustafaMc]

The 2 primary Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter, celebrate the birth and supposed death of their god that they worship. In contrast, the 2 primary Islamic holidays, E'id Al-Fitr and E'id Al-Adha, celebrate the completion of the month of fasting and the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son in obedience to Allah. Our holidays clearly distinguish our religions.

[Grace Seeker]

The 2 primary Christian holidays, Christmas and Easter, celebrate the birth and supposed death of their god that they worship. In contrast, the 2 primary Islamic holidays, E'id Al-Fitr and E'id Al-Adha, celebrate the completion of the month of fasting and the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son in obedience to Allah. Our holidays clearly distinguish our religions.

Christmas does celebrate Jesus' his birth, though even more specifically it celebrates his incarnation.

But a correction with regard to your comments about Easter. Easter does NOT celebrate Jesus' death at all. Easter is the celebration of his resurrection, his rising from the grave, the victory over death.


Also, it should be noted that despite the world generally recognizing Christmas and Easter as "the 2 primary Christian holidays", there are actually 3. Every bit as important to us as those two Holy days is the celebration of Pentecost, God's pouring out of his Spirit on Jesus' followers and the birthday of the Church. However, Hallmark has yet to start selling Pentecost cards. And I haven't seen a giant dove used to advertise car sales, so non-Christians or nominal Christians may not have noticed it yet.

[glo]

Also, it should be noted that despite the world generally recognizing Christmas and Easter as "the 2 primary Christian holidays", there are actually 3. Every bit as important to us as those two Holy days is the celebration of Pentecost, God's pouring out of his Spirit on Jesus' followers and the birthday of the Church. However, Hallmark has yet to start selling Pentecost cards. And I haven't seen a giant dove used to advertise car sales, so non-Christians or nominal Christians may not have noticed it yet.

Shhhh, Grace Seeker ... let's keep this one quiet! :nervous: :D

[MustafaMc]

Christmas does celebrate Jesus' his birth, though even more specifically it celebrates his incarnation.

Oh yes, when your god entered a human body. As he now sits at the right hand of God the Father what form does he have? I assume the one when he was transfigured before the disciples.

But a correction with regard to your comments about Easter. Easter does NOT celebrate Jesus' death at all. Easter is the celebration of his resurrection, his rising from the grave, the victory over death.

You're right, Good Friday was when he died and he resurrected himself on Easter Sunday, but didn't his raising Lazarus from the dead bring victory over death?

Also, it should be noted that despite the world generally recognizing Christmas and Easter as "the 2 primary Christian holidays", there are actually 3. Every bit as important to us as those two Holy days is the celebration of Pentecost, God's pouring out of his Spirit on Jesus' followers and the birthday of the Church. However, Hallmark has yet to start selling Pentecost cards. And I haven't seen a giant dove used to advertise car sales, so non-Christians or nominal Christians may not have noticed it yet.

Funny that I never heard of a holiday celebrating Pentecost when I was a Baptist. I guess I was just one of those "nominal Christians" like my preacher. What day of the year does Pentecost fall on and what is it called? How do you celebrate it in your church?

[MustafaMc]

Shhhh, Grace Seeker ... let's keep this one quiet! :nervous: :D

How and when do you celebrate Pentecost in England?

[glo]

How and when do you celebrate Pentecost in England?

In the traditional church calendar Pentecost is celebrated 50 days after Easter, remembering when the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples who had gathered together.

For me personally Pentecost is the time to remember that God speaks to us directly and calls us personally. Many Christians would have had that sense of 'calling' when they came to faith. I know I did.

[MustafaMc]

In the traditional church calendar Pentecost is celebrated 50 days after Easter, remembering when the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples who had gathered together.

For me personally Pentecost is the time to remember that God speaks to us directly and calls us personally. Many Christians would have had that sense of 'calling' when they came to faith. I know I did.

Please, forgive my ignorance. I learned something today as it was never mentioned when I was a Baptist or member of the Church of Christ. In what way do you remember the day as being special? I assume in your thoughts and prayers.

[MustafaMc]

In the traditional church calendar Pentecost is celebrated 50 days after Easter, remembering when the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples who had gathered together.

Wouldn't 50 days after Easter mean that Pentecost occured on Monday also known as Whit Monday, "one of the major annual holidays in Pennsylvania Dutch country in the United States".

What do people do (on Whit Monday)?

There are a number of customs associated with Whit Monday. Cheese rolling and throwing competitions are held in some parts of England. In other parts of the country, Whit walks, which are parades led by local brass bands, clergy, dignitaries and local organizations, are held. The walks are often concluded by various activities that include competitions, dancing and food.

In the United States some churches organize Whit Monday prayer rallies, which include prayers and street marches. In France it is a holiday that is respected by many citizens. In 2005 millions of workers stayed at home during Whit Monday, despite the government's cancellation of the holiday, causing a halt in public transport and the closure of many municipal offices. The French government recently reinstated Whit Monday as a public holiday, while retaining a more flexible Day of Solidarity.

http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/common/whit-monday

I had never heard of Whit Monday before this google search on Pentecost. Learned something new again!

[Grace Seeker]

didn't his raising Lazarus from the dead bring victory over death?

No. It only showed his power over life and death. His resurrection brought actual victory eliminating the power of both death and sin.

Funny that I never heard of a holiday celebrating Pentecost when I was a Baptist. I guess I was just one of those "nominal Christians" like my preacher. What day of the year does Pentecost fall on and what is it called? How do you celebrate it in your church?

It is funny that you never heard of it, because Baptists most certainly do celebrate it. Since didn't know you when you were a Christian and don't know your former pastor at all I can't specifically comment on why you didn't know about or celebrate Pentecost beyond the general statements I've already made. But I'm not alone in suggesting it's importance among Christian holidays:

Pentecost (Ancient Greek: Πεντηκοστή [ἡμέρα], Pentēkostē [hēmera], "the Fiftieth [day]") is one of the prominent feasts in the Christian liturgical year commemorating the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples of Christ after the Resurrection.(source: wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecost)

Pentecost (Whitsunday)A feast of the universal Church which commemorates the Descent of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles, fifty days after the Resurrection of Christ, on the ancient Jewish festival called the "feast of weeks" or Pentecost (Exodus 34:22; Deuteronomy 16:10). Whitsunday is so called from the white garments which were worn by those who were baptised during the vigil; Pentecost ("Pfingsten" in German), is the Greek for "the fiftieth" (day after Easter). Whitsunday, as a Christian feast, dates back to the first century.(source: New Advent (Catholic) Encyclopedia)

Christmas Christians, Easter Christians, and Pentecost ChristiansMay 28, 2009Posted by Dan R. Dick in Congregational Life, Pentecost, Personal Reflection, Religion in the U.S.. This isn’t a post about when the most people attend church in our denomination (or Pentecost would be replaced by Mother’s Day). This is about three ecclesial worldviews I have experienced in my 30+ years of church leadership that shape the spectra of contemporary Christian belief. This is a personal reflection on three kinds of Christian, and is not meant in any way to say what “ought” to be, or what is “best.” All three types of relationship with God through Jesus Christ offer immense value to individuals, congregations, and the world. In brief:•Christmas Christians form a deep relationship with Jesus, wanting to know Jesus personally, follow Jesus’ teachings exactly, and live life in a way they believe is pleasing to God. Right belief is a driving force for Christmas Christians.•Easter Christians seek to understand the risen Christ, to live lives that reflect the power and presence of Jesus the Christ in the world today. Behavior pleasing to God in the form of mercy, grace, justice, and love shape this worldview.•Pentecost Christians seek to be the incarnate body of Christ in the world, guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit. Shunning legalism and exclusion, this worldview embraces a future grounded in the vision of the realm of God, and refuses to be bound by the past......For years, one of my deepest wishes has been for United Methodists to celebrate Pentecost with the same passion, energy, sacrifice, and joy as Christmas and Easter. Pentecost, in my experience, has been the short leg on the three-legged stool of our Christian story. Why is the rebirth of Christ as the Church not as wonderful as the birth and the resurrection of Jesus the Christ? It makes no sense to me. I’m not meaning we should commercialize it or create specialized candies and ornaments. I mean why aren’t our sanctuaries filled to standing-room-only? Why don’t we march from our sanctuaries into the world singing our songs and telling our story? Why don’t we make it impossible for any conscious person NOT to know that Christians are celebrating Pentecost? I don’t have any answers. I just keep wondering.(source: http://doroteos2.wordpress.com/2009/...st-christians/)

But in my very quick gleaning of internet articles, as incredulous as it seems to me, I do see that you would not be the only Baptist to have not heard of or at least not celebrated Pentecost:

May 24, 2010"Pentecost, Racial Reconciliation, and Southern Baptists"This past weekend, our Southern Baptist church celebrated Pentecost Sunday for the first time. That sounds odd. We celebrate Christmas and Easter every year, why not Pentecost? Pentecost marks the coming of the Holy Spirit and the birth of the church. Why do many evangelicals skip this celebration altogether? It was a glorious day as we considered the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the amazing events in Acts 2, the globalization of the church, and the gospel for all peoples. Pentecost represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for all believers, no matter your culture, tribe, race, or ethnicity. Whether you are male, female, young, old, rich, or poor - it doesn't matter - the Holy Spirit is for all who receive Jesus Christ!Pentecost is about barriers coming down. The barriers between us and God and between each one of us because of sin, pride, and the divisions that we erect as we determine who is best have now all come down in Christ. Ephesians 2:11-22 shows us that the effect of the gospel is that people who were once enemies now become one in Christ. To remain separate from other believers on the basis of superficial factors is to deny the power of the gospel itself....... I wonder if a return to the truths of Pentecost Sunday and the coming of the Holy Spirit in all His power to all people would enable us come together with all Christians in a more unified way, despite cultural or racial differences? Maybe by missing Pentecost, we are also missing something very important in our witness to a country that is constantly finding new ways to divide.(source: http://www.downshoredrift.com/downsh...-baptists.html)

[glo]

Please, forgive my ignorance. I learned something today as it was never mentioned when I was a Baptist or member of the Church of Christ. In what way do you remember the day as being special? I assume in your thoughts and prayers.

Here is some information on the liturgical year, Mustafa.

The liturgical cycle divides the year into a series of seasons, each with their own mood, theological emphases, and modes of prayer, which can be signified by different ways of decorating churches, colors of Paraments and Vestments for clergy, scriptural readings, themes for preaching and even different traditions and practices often observed personally or in the home. In churches that follow the liturgical year, the scripture passages for each Sunday (and even each day of the year in some traditions) are specified by a list called a lectionary.

Among non-Catholic Western Christians, Anglicans and Lutherans have traditionally followed the lectionary since the days of the Protestant Reformation. Following the Roman Catholic liturgical reform of the Roman Rite instituted by Pope Paul VI in 1969, the adoption and use of lectionaries in other Protestant churches (Methodist, Reformed, United, etc.) increased. In particular, the growing influence of the Revised Common Lectionary led to a greater awareness of the Christian year among Protestants in the later decades of the 20th century, especially among mainline denominations.

Grace Seeker, I would be interested to hear if the Methodist churches follow the same or a similar liturgy throughout the year.

Mustafa, I spent some years in a church which did not follow any church calendar at all. I guess the emphasis was more on 'hearing God's Spirit' than on following a prescribed pattern.
So the concept of a liturgy is fairly new to me too, but I am learning the beauty and importance of following a church calendar.

[MustafaMc]

GraceSeeker and glo, you did not tell me how you specifically celebrate Pentecost. I honestly want to know because in growing up Baptist I knew what Pentecost was but I never heard anyone say that it was a holiday to celebrate.

For our 2 Islamic holidays, my wife and I wear our best clothes to attend a special congregational prayer at various cities from 2 to 3 hours away, and we usually have local get-togethers to share food. We give a zakat al-fitr prior to E'id Al-Fitr and for E'd Al-Adha we either donate money to a charity or sacrifice an animal, distributing it: 1/3 to poor, 1/3 to friend, and keep 1/3. I usually donate to Islamic Relief such that an animal is sacrificed for Muslims in need oversees. Others may comment as to whether this is exactly correct Islamically, or not.

[جوري]

Others may comment as to whether this is exactly correct Islamically, or not.

I can't think of better ways to spend 3eed and give thanks..

:w:

[GuestFellow]

i dont get what eggs have to do with bunnies :hmm: did i miss something :hiding:

:sl:

I know, since when rabbits lay eggs! o_o

I think the egg represents new life, as in the resurrection of Prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) as Christians believe.

[MustafaMc]

Here is some information on the liturgical year, Mustafa.

I am not at all familiar with liturgy. I understand it is a ritualized form of worship. How is it related to a holiday celebration such as for Pentecost?

[Grace Seeker]

Mustafa, for me worship is itself celebration. So, reading scripture connected with that day, saying prayers in celebration of the work of the Holy Spirit, and other liturgical acts would be the primary way of celebrating not just Pentecost, but also Easter and Christmas. Remember I've called much of the other stuff distractions from the attention we are called to give to God.

Perhaps better answering your question is some suggestions that my denomination provided last year:

Celebrating Pentecost in the Home

MaryJane Pierce Norton

On Sunday, May 23, 2010, Christian churches celebrate Pentecost. For Christians, Pentecost occurs fifty days after Easter. On that day, the church celebrates the happenings recorded in the New Testament Book of Acts, chapter 2. Notice when you go into church, the changes in colors in the sanctuary. Red is the color of Pentecost, and it signifies the tongues of flames seem over the heads of those praying together. The Scripture also tells us that the sound of the blowing of a violent wind filled the house where they were praying. In addition to the color red, churches often display tongues of flame and symbols of the wind on banners and posters.
In Scripture, we read that the believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to go into the streets telling of Jesus to all those they met. Following Peter's sermon, many were baptized; and the church began to grow. Because of this, we call Pentecost, "the birthday of the church."
In our families, we may have elaborate celebrations of Christmas and Easter, but fail to celebrate Pentecost. However, without Pentecost, we wouldn't have the church. It is worthwhile to spend time in family devotions and celebrations for this church holy day that helps us remember how the church began.
What can you do in your family to celebrate Pentecost?

• Read together Acts 2:1-40. Ask each family member to tell of one thing he or she will try to remember from the Scripture reading.
• Make a Pentecost cake to celebrate the birth of the church. Tint icing red and decorate. Place candles in clusters to symbolize the flames.
• Enjoy wind activities together. Make and fly a kite. Sit outside at dusk and feel the wind on your faces.
• Visit an older member of your church. Ask your church friend to tell you about memories of how your church started, of memories of Sunday school, and of memories of people who were important to his or her faith formation.
• Decorate your home by making red banners, posters, or pictures.

Some of the things we have done in the church to help set the tone have been in the form of decorations. The increased use of read as mentioned, particularly with banners. I've also filled the place with red helium-filled balloons attached to every pew and given to every person at the end of the service for a balloon launch. I know of another pastor who had a large fan blowing red crepe paper streamers as a reminder of the tongues of fire described in Acts 2.

As Pentecost is also celebrated as the birthday of the church, it could be a time for baptisms, ground-breaking on a new church, or special offerings to support the work and ministry of the church around the world. It might be a time when sister churches in different parts of the world tried to have some special joint activity via the internet, or a mother church would formally "give birth" to a daughter congregation.

Hope that helps some.

[Ramadhan]

His resurrection brought actual victory eliminating the power of both death and sin.

What does this mean?
Does this mean that before jesus' resurrection, God never had victory over the power of death and sin?

[truthseeker63]

Easter is a Pagan holiday just like Christmas.

[MustafaMc]

GraceSeeker, yes that definitely helps, particularly the insert from MaryJane. What she said was definitely a celebration which to me is different from routine worship although a special worship for a particular day such as a 'sunrise service' can also be seen as a celebration.

Your earlier comment indicated that those who don't celebrate 'Pentecost' as a holiday are in some way 'nominal' or 'marginal' Christians. Well this is a quote from your denomination, "In our families, we may have elaborate celebrations of Christmas and Easter, but fail to celebrate Pentecost." This indicates to me that even in the Methodist community of Illinois the celebration of Pentecost is not a widespread practice. I assure you that in all of my years of attending Baptist churches and the Church of Christ I never once saw a red balloon, or red streamers blowing in a fan, or went flying a kite to mark the day of Pentecost as being special.

If one counts 50 days after Easter (Sunday), then Pentecost must have fallen on a Monday (Whit Monday). Why is it marked as being on a Sunday? Is this like Jesus raising himself from the dead after he said he would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the grave (like Jonah) when he only spent 2 nights, and 1 full day in the grave?

[جوري]

Easter is a Pagan holiday just like Christmas.

agreed .. Thank you for uttering a word of truth.. Jesus indeed never said celebrate my birth on the wrong date, and celebrate my alleged crucifixion!

peace

[Grace Seeker]

GraceSeeker, yes that definitely helps, particularly the insert from MaryJane. What she said was definitely a celebration which to me is different from routine worship although a special worship for a particular day such as a 'sunrise service' can also be seen as a celebration.

Your earlier comment indicated that those who don't celebrate 'Pentecost' as a holiday are in some way 'nominal' or 'marginal' Christians. Well this is a quote from your denomination, "In our families, we may have elaborate celebrations of Christmas and Easter, but fail to celebrate Pentecost." This indicates to me that even in the Methodist community of Illinois the celebration of Pentecost is not a widespread practice. I assure you that in all of my years of attending Baptist churches and the Church of Christ I never once saw a red balloon, or red streamers blowing in a fan, or went flying a kite to mark the day of Pentecost as being special.

I don't doubt your experience. But, again, I ask you to remember that for me the celebration of Christmas is not the secular holiday with Santa, and the celebration of Easter has nothing to do with colored eggs and chocolate rabbits. The real celebration of these events involves the worship of God and the remembrance of what has done and is doing. And in this sense, since you do remember at least the recognition of Pentecost from your days attending churches, it does sound like your respective churches did celebrate them, however low-keyed that celebration was.And I can assure you, from personal experience as a United Methodist pastor in Illinois and my presence in its churches, though probably only a handful would incorporate things like balloons or red streamers, that all our churches do celebrate Pentecost in the sense that I mean celebrate. I pretty familiar with the Lutheran Church (ELCA) as well, and feel confident making the same statement with regard to them. Now the UMC and the ELCA are both more liturgical than some other denominations, so that may be skewing my observations. But I again affirm I have NEVER met a Christian congregation (including my non-liturgical peers at other congregations in the communities that I have served) that did not take notice of and celebrate Pentecost to at least some degree in the sense that I mean to celebrate as an act of worship.
On the other hand, if you insist that celebration of a holiday must include decorations and not worship related rituals. Then there are many a Pentecost, and not just then, but Easter also, that my very own churches have not celebrated for we celebrated through worship and without other sorts of external trappings. (Christmas always at least had some extra greenery decorations.)

If one counts 50 days after Easter (Sunday), then Pentecost must have fallen on a Monday (Whit Monday). Why is it marked as being on a Sunday? Is this like Jesus raising himself from the dead after he said he would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the grave (like Jonah) when he only spent 2 nights, and 1 full day in the grave?

Pentecost means 50 days, and already existed as a first century Jewish festival that took place 50 days after Passover. It was for this Jewish Pentecost festival that people had gathered to Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples:

When the day of [this Jewish] Pentecost [festival] came, they [the disciples] were all together in one place [the Upper Room]. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. (Acts2:1-4)

So, Pentecost doesn't mean 50 days after Easter, but actually refers to this original Pentecost which was 50 days after the Passover before which Jesus was crucified. Again, sloppiness in the way people pass these things on to others has led many who can make the connection between "Pente" and 5 to that it is the counting of 50 days, but then they mistakenly think that it has to do with counting from Easter since we celebrate Pentecost today as a Christian festival of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and not the Harvest festival that it was for 1st century Jews.

In trying to figure how we determine Pentecost today, one must recognize that because of the use of different calendars today Jewish Passover and Christian Easter don't always end up overlapping -- though they usually do. But since we are no longer celebrating the Jewish harvest festival of Pentecost, but the Christian event that took place on one particular Pentecost it doesn't really matter (to Christians at least) if the two pentecosts today are the same day. (In fact, I don't even know if Jews continue to celebrate their original Pentecost anymore.) Liturgical practice is to celebrate 7 Sundays of Easter (including Resurrection Sunday itself) and then Pentecost Sunday.

[Grace Seeker]

What does this mean?
Does this mean that before jesus' resurrection, God never had victory over the power of death and sin?

To answer this question we have to go back to the beginning and a theological point over which Muslims and Christians disagree. That is--What is our natural state?

From the Christian point of view Adam and Eve were created perfect? They enjoyed complete and perfect fellowship with God as well. They did not know both good and evil, but were created knowing only good. But they were allowed freedom of choice. They could choose to serve God and conform their will to His or to assert their own will over God's will and usurp the divine will of God in their lives with their own will. This latter is what they chose. The act of choosing one's own will over God's will is itself a sinful act. And such sin lead immediately to the separation of Adam and Eve from the fellowship they were created to enjoy with God -- a type of death, spiritual death which would subsequently be followed by physical death as well.

As fallen creatures, marred at their spiritual core, and living in a world separated apart from continued fellowship with God as they had once had they now lived in a fallen world. It is into this fallen world, with a fallen nature similarly marred as their parent's nature was that all their children were born. (Again, I know Muslims disagree with this assessment, but you have asked for my Christian understanding of events.) And so, death was what all persons knew. God still had power, as one saw with healings and other miracles to step into this world and change the natural order even to bring people back to life, but our very natures had been changed so that death, not just physical death but also spiritual death, and permament separation from God was to be normative for us. Thus it is that Jews believed that they dead resided in Sheol, which is quite apart from God.

Yet there was for many also a belief in the ultimate promise of at least an eschatological resurrection when God would set all things right again. Many Jews of Jesus' day believed that this would be a result of the arrival of the Messiah who would usher in the Day of the Lord at the end times. Indeed, this is a belief that some (though not all it seems) Jews still hold and await. For Christians, we believe this day has come.

We see in the person of Jesus Christ, the triumph over death and the offering of a new way of connecting with God again. We believe that the old nature can be replaced with a new nature in which one is reconciled and made whole with God again through not our own work, but the work of Jesus Christ. And most specifically, his willingness to die our death that we might receive from him the offering of his life. So, in the words of all Muslims' favorite (sarcasm intended) Christian, St. Paul,

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:4)

we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. (2 Corinthians 4:14)

So, from the time of the fall, till the time of the resurrection, the natural order was that for people who sinned (and even if you don't believe in original sin or inherited depravity, there is still the reality that we all do in fact commit sins) death reigned. But now, for those who are in Christ, as a result of his resurrection, life reigns. And this is why we say that it is by means of Christ's resurrection that we have victory over the power of sin and death.

-----edit-----

And Naidamar, I see one other thing of import in your question that I failed to address before. Whose victory are we talking about? As I said above, God has always had power over sin and death. They have no effect on him. Huamnity are the ones subject to them. So, what Christ accomplishes by means of his resurrection is to secure us victory where we previously had been defeated. God wins the victory for us which we could not win for ourselves.

[glo]

GraceSeeker and glo, you did not tell me how you specifically celebrate Pentecost. I honestly want to know because in growing up Baptist I knew what Pentecost was but I never heard anyone say that it was a holiday to celebrate.

For our 2 Islamic holidays, my wife and I wear our best clothes to attend a special congregational prayer at various cities from 2 to 3 hours away, and we usually have local get-togethers to share food. We give a zakat al-fitr prior to E'id Al-Fitr and for E'd Al-Adha we either donate money to a charity or sacrifice an animal, distributing it: 1/3 to poor, 1/3 to friend, and keep 1/3. I usually donate to Islamic Relief such that an animal is sacrificed for Muslims in need oversees. Others may comment as to whether this is exactly correct Islamically, or not.

Mustafa, I don't think how people celebrate is that important. I am sure different people/churches/denominations do it differently, I have never given it much attention.

What is important is to know and appreciate what happened on Pentecost. The Spirit of God descended on his people, and to this day people receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. God's Spirit lives with us and in us, and guides us every moment of our lives, if only we listen!

Just reading the account in Acts and making myself aware of the enormity of the event, praying and seeking God's Spirit for myself is enough for me. Any other celebrations or new clothes or social events may be fun, but are definitely secondary in importance.

[Ramadhan]

To answer this question we have to go back to the beginning and a theological point over which Muslims and Christians disagree.

---snippet----

I get what you are saying. So christians believe that humans inherited sins from adam, hence, god need to reincarnated on earth and died so that the inherited sins can be forgiven so that humans will be able to be reunited with God later.
Is that correct?

Also, can you explain how the inherited sins is forgiven by the death of God.
The details seem very sketchy and glossed over.
(can you also explain it in less wordy, more succinct? your flowery long-winded sentences unfortunately only confused me further)

What about humans who had existed before God decided to come down to earth? They will not be able to reunite with god.
Also what about babies who are not baptised? they also will not be reunited with God.

[MustafaMc]

Just reading the account in Acts and making myself aware of the enormity of the event, praying and seeking God's Spirit for myself is enough for me. Any other celebrations or new clothes or social events may be fun, but are definitely secondary in importance.

Glo, I appreciate your perspective. I can understand why Christians would honor the day, but that is not to say that those who don't are any less a Christian.

My perspective on Pentecost as a Christian was the same as the one I have now for the birthday of Muhammad (saaws), the night journey (miraj) to receive the commandment for salah, the migration to Medina, and the conquest of Mecca. I recognize the importance of those days, but I don't celebrate them or even really know what day they occur each year. I guess that makes me a 'nominal' Muslim in some people's eye.

[Grace Seeker]

I get what you are saying. So christians believe that humans inherited sins from adam, hence, god need to reincarnated on earth and died so that the inherited sins can be forgiven so that humans will be able to be reunited with God later.
Is that correct?

Close. What Jesus did was to live the perfectly submitted human life that Adam (and the rest of us) were created for. Thus he serves as a new Adam. As sin entered the world through the first Adam, so righteousness does by the second Adam (i.e. Jesus). Thus by his life Jesus creates a bridge across the chasm that sin creates that separates us from God and provides means of reconciliation for all who will trust in that bridge which he provides. As to how this happens? There are a myriad speculations made by theologians. But ultimately the method is something that God knows best. I just know that he proclaims it to be so.

You find the details sketchy because they are. I've found you to have a low tolerance for things explained at length. If that has changed, I will be glad to recommend some books for you to read on the subject.

As for those who existed before Jesus, this offering is once and for all (including for all time). We read in Hebrews of how the Old Testament saints lived looking forward to Jesus' day. They would not have known of Jesus by name, but they knew of God's promised of a Messiah to affect the gift of reconciliation between God and humankind and lived placing their faith in God who would one day redeem them.

As for unbaptized babies, I don't see baptism being the key. Faith is. So, a better question would be what about those who either because of age, mental defect, or geographical isolation have not heard the message and been able to respond in faith? Faith itself is understood to be a gift from God. So, as I understand the scriptures those who respond in faith to the knowledge that they have, however limited that might be, are just as saved as the next person.

You might find other Christians answering those questions different than I do. But that is my general response -- God can do what God wants to do in accepting whosoever he wills simply as an act of his grace. I hope that helps with your questions. You are not alone in asking them. I know many who have grown up in the church all their lives and accept its teaching that still wrestle with some of these very question, as I remember doing myself at one time. What helped me the most was to understand that even more than judgment, God was about offering grace. And my accountability stems from my desire to live in a committed and faithful relationship with God, than with me trying to earn God's good pleasure.

And now this thread has gotten much deeper into theology than the simple question of why we celebrate Easter to what we are celebrating when we do celebrate it.

[glo]

Glo, I appreciate your perspective. I can understand why Christians would honor the day, but that is not to say that those who don't are any less a Christian.

My perspective on Pentecost as a Christian was the same as the one I have now for the birthday of Muhammad (saaws), the night journey (miraj) to receive the commandment for salah, the migration to Medina, and the conquest of Mecca. I recognize the importance of those days, but I don't celebrate them or even really know what day they occur each year. I guess that makes me a 'nominal' Muslim in some people's eye.

I understand what you are saying, Mustafa.

Although I am learning to appreciate the cycle of the church calendar, it is just an aid for me to remember certain events on an annual basis - but that doesn't mean I can only remember Jesus' birth at Christmas, his resurrection at Easter and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Those events and their importance to my faith are with me daily.

I quite like the idea of setting aside a 'special day' of remembrance, but the actual celebration, the gifts, the parties, the new clothes are fairly unimportant to me.
In fact, sometimes I wonder whether letting go of those 'worldy' things would actually help me focus on the divine meaning.

I don't think it makes you 'nominal', I think it means you have your eyes on more important things! :)

As always it is nice to recognise the values we share despite our differences in faith. :)

[MustafaMc]

Although I am learning to appreciate the cycle of the church calendar, it is just an aid for me to remember certain events on an annual basis

Today, I spoke to a couple of Catholic coworkers and learned a little more about the liturgy and their marking of special days. I have also learned there is a wide range of practices and beliefs among those who call themselves Christian.

[Grace Seeker]

I have also learned there is a wide range of practices and beliefs among those who call themselves Christian.

I am learning this, too. Indeed much more than I ever suspected.

I've put a question on a Christian forum to different denominational groups asking about what they consider the MAJOR Christian Holy Days or holidays, the feedback has astonded me.

Mustafa, I was wrong. And I apologize. I didn't expect uniformity, but I did expect a few common threads. My experience, which I did not think was so narrow, has been to highlight those holidays of Christmas, Easter (including the preceeding days of Holy Week), and Pentecost as the major celebrations of the Christian faith. I knew that for some liturgical groups there were other important holy days and festivals, and that a few people who use the name Christian didn't like to celebrate any holidays at all. But the diversity of responses I have received thus far is significantly greater than I could have ever imagined. Indeed, about the only thing that we can come close to agreeing on is that the celebration of the Resurrection is our pre-iminent celebration -- and even here disagreement over whether it is acceptable to use the term "Easter". Beyond that, there isn't agreement over the appropriateness of celebrating Christmas, let alone the importance of Pentecost which I do seem to be in the minority in considering as important as I (and at least some others) do.

So, with egg on my face and eating humble pie, I stand corrected.

[Ramadhan]

Close. What Jesus did was to live the perfectly submitted human life that Adam (and the rest of us) were created for. Thus he serves as a new Adam. As sin entered the world through the first Adam, so righteousness does by the second Adam (i.e. Jesus). Thus by his life Jesus creates a bridge across the chasm that sin creates that separates us from God and provides means of reconciliation for all who will trust in that bridge which he provides. As to how this happens? There are a myriad speculations made by theologians. But ultimately the method is something that God knows best. I just know that he proclaims it to be so.

Did jesus (pbuh) say/explain this himself, or is that speculations from theologians?
Did jesus (pbuh) say he was the second adam?
I thought Christians believe jesus (pbuh) is God?
so which one is correct?

You find the details sketchy because they are. I've found you to have a low tolerance for things explained at length. If that has changed, I will be glad to recommend some books for you to read on the subject.

Why are the details sketchy?
I thought for christians redemption of sins is a very important issue, after all, it deals with our eternal fate.

As for those who existed before Jesus, this offering is once and for all (including for all time). We read in Hebrews of how the Old Testament saints lived looking forward to Jesus' day. They would not have known of Jesus by name, but they knew of God's promised of a Messiah to affect the gift of reconciliation between God and humankind and lived placing their faith in God who would one day redeem them.

in OT, all prophets taught pure monotheism, and that is the most important knowledge that humans should have and follow.
I haven't heard any prophets taught that they still had sins and hence cannot be reunited with God.
Is there not a problem here?

As for unbaptized babies, I don't see baptism being the key. Faith is. So, a better question would be what about those who either because of age, mental defect, or geographical isolation have not heard the message and been able to respond in faith? Faith itself is understood to be a gift from God. So, as I understand the scriptures those who respond in faith to the knowledge that they have, however limited that might be, are just as saved as the next person.

So babies don't need to be baptized?
You previously said we all inherited sins from Adam.
Doesn't this mean the babies are still sinful and that means they cannot be reunited with God?
Again, I found that your statements contradict each other.

You might find other Christians answering those questions different than I do.

That's understatement. LOL.
It seems each christian are free to interpret anything, including creed.

[Woodrow]

That's understatement. LOL.
It seems each christian are free to interpret anything, including creed.

There is very wide differences in the reasons why various Christian denominations differ so much over what we non-Christians think of as being basic holidays and practiced by all Christians. It does seem the Main Stream older denominations do follow the same basics, with only slight variations. However beginning about 200 years ago a new form of Christianity took shape in the USA. These are the "Bible only" denominations that have no church teaching, church history. liturgy or affiliation with other Christians.

It is also fed to at least a small degree by the tax exempt status given to churches in the USA. While many are sincerely trying to dedicate their lives to God(swt), there are those who have found it to be a lucrative income with tax free benefits. As a result there are now over 30,000 different denominations in the USA alone. but to be fair it should be known that almost all of them consist of only one church and very small membership, often just the immediate family and a few close friends. But each of these differ considerably and follow how their own church founder interprets the Bible. Each of those celebrate or not celebrate Easter and other holidays based upon what the church leader does or does not do.

[Grace Seeker]

Did jesus (pbuh) say/explain this himself, or is that speculations from theologians?
Did jesus (pbuh) say he was the second adam?
Scripture calls him this.I thought Christians believe jesus (pbuh) is God?
so which one is correct?
The statements are not mutually exclusive unless you don't understand Jesus' divine/human nature.




Why are the details sketchy?
I thought for christians redemption of sins is a very important issue, after all, it deals with our eternal fate.



in OT, all prophets taught pure monotheism, and that is the most important knowledge that humans should have and follow.
Islam might make the claim that the most important knowledge that humans should have is pure monotheism, the OT does NOT.
I haven't heard any prophets taught that they still had sins and hence cannot be reunited with God.
Is there not a problem here?
>Only with the assumptions you make that the prophets were sinless. Such a teaching is NOT found in the scriptures that I accept as authoritative. Indeed, they declare the opposite, that all (except Jesus) have sinned. The sins of some prophets are even lifted up as negative examples and used to teach others to do better in following God.




So babies don't need to be baptized?
You previously said we all inherited sins from Adam.
Doesn't this mean the babies are still sinful and that means they cannot be reunited with God?
Again, I found that your statements contradict each other.
>Already addressed in what I wrote above. If you see them as contradictory, then you don't yet understand them or how it is that God works.




That's understatement. LOL.
It seems each christian are free to interpret anything, including creed.

Most of these question take us farther and farther afield from the OP. It was bad enough that I introduce a discussion of Pentecost, many of these other ideas are major theological points in themselves that deserve their own thread, least their treatment also be seen as "sketchy". And why "sketchy"? Because you keep asking for only the simplest of answers. Look at Sol Invictus' response to the Trinity. That too is a very brief response to the question, yet I wouldn't be surprised if there are not more than a few who accuse him of long-winded arguments and flowery speech. The shorter, briefer answers you term sketchy; but anything else you complain about being too involved, and even these briefer remarks you seem unable to follow. Not because what I write is illogical or you lack intelligence, but most likely because we simply have enough difference in our backgrounds that our two ways of thinking are filled with aprioi assumptions and processes that make it hard to translate ideas. Even what you and I mean by the definition of a simple word like "sin" appears to be different. So, the communication of ideas requires more than the translation of words, but of a willingness to try to approach the matter from the other person's perspective. For that, one has to be seeking more than knowledge, but also understanding

[Ramadhan]

Scripture calls him this

I see you trusted the writing of unknown men more than the authentic saying of Jesus (pbuh) himself.
I thought christianity is about the life and the teachings of jesus (pbuh)?

The statements are not mutually exclusive unless you don't understand Jesus' divine/human nature.

Then tell me about this divine/human nature? So far, not even the pope is able to explain it.

Islam might make the claim that the most important knowledge that humans should have is pure monotheism, the OT does NOT.

Well, one thing we know for sure: the OT certainly did NOT teach God is one in three. All prophets in the OT consistently taught their people to worship the ONE true God, not The father-the son-holy spirit.
Heck, even Jesus (pbuh) himself rebuked the lost sheep of Israel and kept telling them to repent and to worship the ONE true God.

Only with the assumptions you make that the prophets were sinless. Such a teaching is NOT found in the scriptures that I accept as authoritative. Indeed, they declare the opposite, that all (except Jesus) have sinned. The sins of some prophets are even lifted up as negative examples and used to teach others to do better in following God.

The prophets in the OT did not say that they inherited sins from Adam, and that they were all waiting for God to come down to earth and to die for their sins.
In fact, they all taught their people to repent to God.
Come on, GS, you are pastor!
Surely you know your bible?