Questions for learned Muslims

[freethinking]

Greetings and Gods blessing to you all.

I am new to this frorum having made a few posts on this site since joing only this month and have also read the Quran two years ago now.
Before I ask the first of my questions, I wish the few people who use this forum and tag on one quote from the Book of John where Jesus says 2 the Father is greater than I "in Chapter 14 is preceded by these words of Jesus from the same chapter:
Jesus the Way to the Father

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Now to my first question on my first thread here Inshallah and with peace and respect to all

I wish to ask serious knowedgable Muslims, is your faith and the Quran founded upon the earler Book known as the Bible, or perhaps just the Torah, or just bits of one or the other or from both.

I do9 hope someone here can clarfiy this for me

Many thanks

Bless you

[islamirama]

Greetings Freethinker,

Our faith is founded on the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The Quran is founded on the words of God relayed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) through ArchAgnel Gabriel.

We believe that Allah revealed books to His messengers as proof against mankind and a guidance for the righteous workers. They purified and taught them wisdom by these books.

We believe that Allah sent down a book with every messenger, because He says: "Indeed We sent down Our messengers with the clear signs, and We sent down with them the book and the balance, so that people may uphold justice" (57:25).


Among the books that were revealed, we know:

I ) The Torah, which was revealed to Moses, peace be upon him. It is the greatest among the Israelites' books: "Surely, We sent down the Torah, wherein is guidance and light; by its laws the Jews have been judged by the prophets who surrendered themselves to Allah, the rabbis and the doctors of law, because they were entrusted the protection of Allah's book and were witnesses thereto" (5:44).

2) The Gospel, which Allah revealed to Jesus, peace be upon him. It is a confirmation of the Torah and a complement to it: "And we gave him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition to the God-fearing" (5:46); "And to make lawful to you certain things that, before, were forbidden to you" (3:50).

NOTE: We don't believe in the bible as it is not the Gospels but rather a combination of several books and mostly Paul's letters inviting others to polytheism (trinity)

3) The Psalms, which Allah gave to David, peace be upon him.

4) The Tablets of Abraham and Moses, peace be upon them.

5) The Glorious Qur'an, which was revealed to His Prophet Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets. It is "a guidance to the people and clear signs of guidance and the criterion between right and wrong" (2:185). The Qur'an Is Protected from Change:

The Qur'an is "confirming the scripture that was before it and stands as a guardian over it." Thus, by means of the Qur'an, Allah abrogated all the previous revealed books. Allah has also guaranteed its protection from any play or mischievous distortion: "Indeed, We sent down the message and We will guard it" (15:9), for the Qur'an is a proof against mankind till the Day of Judgment.

Previous Scriptures Changed:

The previous scriptures were meant for a limited period. Their use ended with the revelation of the Qur'an, which abrogated them and exposed their distortions and changes. That is why they were not protected from corruption. They underwent distortion, addition, and omission: "Some of the Jews pervert words from their meanings" (4:46); "So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' that they may sell it for a little price. So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings" (2:79); "Say, who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a light and a guidance to people? You put it into sheets of paper showing some of them and concealing much" (6:91); "And there is a group among them who twist their tongues with the Book, that you may think it is a part of the Book but it is not part of the Book. And they say 'It is from Allah,' yet it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah and they know it. It is not for any human being to whom Allah has given the Book, the Wisdom and the Prophet hood to say to men 'Worship me instead of Allah"' (3:79); "People of the Book! Our Messenger has come to you, making clear to you many things you have been concealing of the Book and forgiving you of much. A light has come to you from Allah and a glorious Book, with which He will guide whoever follows His pleasure in the way of peace, and brings them forth from darkness into the light by His will" (5:15-16).

[جوري]

You should in fact read the Quran before posing your questions? The Quran is the criterion to what preceded it.. we believe your texts are corrupted!

This except by Dr. Gary Miller (a former christian) sums it best

Wed. Jun. 8, 2005

Living Shari`ah > Qur'an > Facts & Fallacies

Any Proof Against the Qur'an? (Part One) *
By Dr. Gary Miller
Da`iyah — Canada

• Part 1
• Part 2

It must be stressed that the Qur'an is accurate about many, many things, but accuracy does not necessarily mean that a book is a divine revelation. In fact, accuracy is only one of the criteria for divine revelations. For instance, the telephone book is accurate, but that does not mean that it is divinely revealed. The real problem lies in that one must establish some proof of the source of the Qur'an’s information. The emphasis is in the other direction, in that the burden of proof is on the reader. One cannot simply deny the Qur'an’s authenticity without sufficient proof. If, indeed, one finds a mistake, then one has the right to disqualify it. This is exactly what the Qur'an encourages. Looking for Mistakes
Once a man came up to me after a lecture I delivered in South Africa. He was very angry about what I had said, and so he claimed, “I am going to go home tonight and find a mistake in the Qur'an.” Of course, I said, “Congratulations. That is the most intelligent thing that you have said.” Certainly, this is the approach Muslims need to take with those who doubt the Qur'an’s authenticity, because the Qur'an itself offers the same challenge. And inevitably, after accepting its challenge and discovering that it is true, these people will come to believe it because they could not disqualify it. In essence, the Qur'an earns their respect because they themselves have had to verify its authenticity.
An essential fact that cannot be reiterated enough concerning the authenticity of the Qur'an is that one’s inability to explain a phenomenon oneself does not require one’s acceptance of the phenomenon’s existence or another person’s explanation of it. Specifically, just because one cannot explain something does not mean that one has to accept someone else’s explanation. However, the person’s refusal of other explanations returns the burden of proof back on himself to find a feasible answer. This general theory applies to numerous concepts in life but fits most wonderfully with the Qur'anic challenge, for it creates a difficulty for one who says, “I do not believe it.” At the onset of refusal one immediately has an obligation to find an explanation oneself if one feels others’ answers are inadequate.
In fact, in one particular Qur'anic verse that I have always seen mistranslated into English, Allah mentions a man who heard the truth explained to him. It states that he was derelict in his duty because after he heard the information, he left without checking the verity of what he had heard. In other words, one is guilty if one hears something and does not research it and check to see whether it is true. One is supposed to process all information and decide what is garbage to be thrown out and what is worthwhile information to be kept and benefited from immediately or even at a later date.
One cannot just let it rattle around in one’s head. It must be put in the proper categories and approached from that point of view. For example, if the information is still speculative, then one must discern whether it’s closer to being true or false. But if all the facts have been presented, then one must decide absolutely between these two options. And even if one is not positive about the authenticity of the information, one is still required to process all the information and make the admission that one just does not know for sure. Although this last point appears to be futile, in actuality, it is beneficial to the arrival at a positive conclusion at a later time in that it forces the person to at least recognize, research, and review the facts.
This familiarity with the information will give the person “the edge” when future discoveries are made and additional information is presented. The important thing is that one deals with the facts and does not simply discard them out of empathy and disinterest.
Exhausting the Alternatives
The real certainty about the truthfulness of the Qur'an is evident in the confidence that is prevalent throughout it, and this confidence comes from a different approach: exhausting the alternatives.” In essence, the Qur'an states, “This book is a divine revelation; if you do not believe that, then what is it?” In other words, the reader is challenged to come up with some other explanation. Here is a book made of paper and ink. Where did it come from? It says it is a divine revelation; if it is not, then what is its source? The interesting fact is that no one has yet come up with an explanation that works. In fact, all alternatives have been exhausted. As has been well established by non-Muslims, these alternatives basically are reduced to two mutually exclusive schools of thought, insisting on one or the other.
On one hand, there exists a large group of people who have researched the Qur'an for hundreds of years and who claim, “One thing we know for sure: That man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), thought he was a prophet. He was crazy!” They are convinced that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was fooled somehow. Then on the other hand, there is a group that alleges, “Because of this evidence, one thing we know for sure is that that man, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), was a liar!” Ironically, these two groups never seem to get together without contradictions.
In fact, many references to Islam usually claim both theories. They start out by stating that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was crazy and then end by saying he was a liar. They never seem to realize that he could not have been both! For example, if one is deluded and really thinks that he is a prophet, then he does not sit up late at night planning, “How will I fool the people tomorrow so that they think I am a prophet?” He truly believes that he is a prophet, and he trusts that the answer will be given to him by revelation.
The Critic’s Trail
As a matter of fact, a great deal of the Qur'an came in answer to questions. Someone would ask Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) a question, and the revelation would come with the answer to it. Certainly, if someone is crazy and believes that an angel put words in his ear, then when someone asks him a question, he thinks that the angel will give him the answer. Because he is crazy, he really thinks that. He does not tell someone to wait a short while and then run to his friends and ask them, “Does anyone know the answer?” This type of behavior is characteristic of someone who does not believe that he is a prophet. What the non-Muslims refuse to accept is that you cannot have it both ways. One can be deluded, or one can be a liar. One can be either one or neither one, but one certainly cannot be both! The emphasis is on the fact that they are unquestionably mutually exclusive personality traits.
The following scenario is a good example of the kind of circle that non-Muslims go around in constantly. If you ask one of them, “What is the origin of the Qur'an?” he tells you that it originated from the mind of a man who was crazy. Then you ask him, “If it came from his head, then where did he get the information contained in it? Certainly the Qur'an mentions many things with which the Arabs were not familiar.” So in order to explain the fact that you bring him, he changes his position and says, “Well, maybe he was not crazy. Maybe some foreigner brought him the information. So he lied and told people that he was a prophet.” At this point then you have to ask him, “If Muhammad was a liar, then where did he get his confidence? Why did he behave as though he really thought he was a prophet?” Finally backed into a corner, like a cat he quickly lashes out with the first response that comes to his mind. Forgetting that he has already exhausted that possibility, he claims, “Well, maybe he wasn’t a liar. He was probably crazy and really thought that he was a prophet.” And thus he begins the futile cycle again.
* Excerpted with some modifications from The Amazing Qur'an, here cited from: http://www.ymofmd.com/books/amazing_quran.htm#apro1
Dr. Gary Miller is a Canadian former Christian theologian and minister who converted to Islam. He now works on spreading and preaching Islam to the world
Any Proof Against the Qur'an? (Part Two)
By Dr. Gary Miller
Da`iyah — Canada

• Part 1 Part 2

As has already been mentioned, there is much information contained in the Qur'an whose source cannot be attributed to anyone other than Allah. For example, who told Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) about the wall of Dhul Qarnayn— a place hundreds of miles to the north? Who told him about embryology? When people assemble facts such as these, if they are not willing to attribute their existence to a divine source, they automatically resort to the assumption someone brought Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) the information and that he used it to fool the people. However, this theory can easily be disproved with one simple question: “If Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, where did he get his confidence? Why did he tell some people outright to their face what others could never say?” Such confidence depends completely upon being convinced that one has a true, divine revelation. A Revelation: Abu Lahab
Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had an uncle by the name of Abu Lahab. This man hated Islam to such an extent that he used to follow the Prophet around in order to discredit him. If Abu Lahab saw the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) speaking to a stranger, he would wait until they parted and he would go to the stranger and ask him, "What did he tell you? Did he say, ‘Black?' Well, it's white. Did he say ‘morning?' Well, it's night." He faithfully said the exact opposite of whatever he heard Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and the Muslims say.
However, about ten years before Abu Lahab died, a little chapter in the Qur'an (Surat Al-Masad, 111) was revealed about him. It distinctly stated that he would go to the fire (Hell). In other words, it affirmed that he would never become a Muslim and would, therefore, be condemned forever. For ten years, all Abu Lahab had to do was say, "I heard that it has been revealed to Muhammad that I will never change—that I will never become a Muslim and will enter the Hellfire. Well, I want to become Muslim now. How do you like that? What do you think of your divine revelation now?" But he never did that. And yet, that is exactly the kind of behavior one would have expected from him, since he always sought to contradict Islam.
In essence, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You hate me and you want to finish me? Here, say these words and I am finished. Come on, say them!” But Abu Lahab never said them. Ten years! And in all that time he never accepted Islam or even became sympathetic to the Islamic cause.
How could Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) have possibly known for sure that Abu Lahab would fulfill the Qur'anic revelation if he (Muhammad) was not truly the messenger of Allah? How could he possibly have been so confident as to give someone 10 years to discredit his claim of Prophethood? The only answer is that he was Allah's messenger; for in order to put forth such a risky challenge, one has to be entirely convinced that one has a divine revelation.
The Flight
Another example of the confidence which Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had in his own Prophethood and, consequently, in the divine protection of himself and his message, was when he left Makkah and hid in a cave with Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) during their emigration from Makkah to Madinah. The two clearly saw people coming to kill them, Abu Bakr was afraid. Certainly, if Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was a liar, a forger, and one who was trying to fool the people into believing that he was a prophet, one would have expected him to say in such a circumstance to his friend, "Hey, Abu Bakr, see if you can find a back way out of this cave." Or, "Squat down in that corner over there and keep quiet." Yet, in fact, what he said to Abu Bakr clearly illustrated his confidence. He told him, "Relax! Allah is with us and Allah will save us!" Now, if one knows that one is fooling the people, where does one get this kind of attitude? In fact, such a frame of mind is not characteristic of a liar or a forger at all.
So, as has been previously mentioned, the non-Muslims go around and around in a circle, searching for a way out—some way to explain the findings in the Qur'an without attributing them to their proper source. On one hand, they tell you on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday that "the man was a liar," and on the other hand, on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday they tell you that "he was crazy." What they refuse to accept is that one cannot have it both ways; yet they need both theories, both excuses to explain the information in the Qur'an.
An Encounter with a Minister
About seven years ago, I had a minister over to my home. In the particular room that we were sitting in, there was a Qur'an on the table, face down, and so the minister was not aware of which book it was. In the midst of a discussion, I pointed to the Qur'an and said, “I have confidence in that book.” Looking at the Qur'an but not knowing which book it was, he replied, “Well, I tell you, if that book is not the Bible, it was written by a man!” In response to his statement, I said, “Let me tell you something about what is in that book.” And in just three to four minutes, I related to him a few things contained in the Qur'an. After just those three or four minutes, he completely changed his position and declared, “You are right. A man did not write that book, the Devil wrote it!” Indeed, possessing such an attitude is very unfortunate, for many reasons. For one thing, it is a very quick and cheap excuse. It is an instant exit out of an uncomfortable situation.
As a matter of fact, there is a famous story in the Bible that mentions how one day, some of the Jews were witnesses when Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) raised a m an from the dead. The man had been dead for four days, yet when Jesus arrived, he simply said, “Get up!” and the man arose and walked away. At such a sight, some of the Jews who were watching said disbelievingly, “This is the Devil. The Devil helped him!” Now this story is rehearsed very often in churches all over the world, and people cry big tears over it, saying, “Oh, if I had been there, I would not have been as stupid as the Jews!” Yet, ironically, these people do exactly what the Jews did when in just three minutes you show them only a small part of the Qur'an and all they can say is, “Oh, the Devil did it. The devil wrote that book!” Because they are truly backed into a corner and have no other viable answer, they resort to the quickest and cheapest excuse available.
Dr. Gary Miller is a Canadian former Christian theologian and minister who converted to Islam. He now works on spreading and preaching Islam to the world

all the best!

[freethinking]

Greetings Islamirama
thank you and Bless you for your prompt response, I take it you are a lerned student of the Quran then?

I am confused however how God would change such significant and profound teachings from the Bible or at least the parts you say you accept which include the Torah, psalms and the Gospels (which is quite a large proportion of the Bible). Do you include Johns final book of the Bible which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ?

What about the latter books of the OT such as


[links removed]

If you answer this it will help me to understand you better if that is convenient


Many thanks
God Bless you

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[islamirama]

God didn't change any teachings. Jesus (pbuh) asked about full message of God and God told him that his people can't handle it and a new Messenger will come afterward with the complete message (Quran). What coincides with the Quran is what was left unchanged, what contradicts the Quran is where men changed it to suit their own agendas. Skye has provided a great article for your reading.

[جوري]

The man you worship as god was sent for a select few per your bible:

New International Version (©1984)
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." New Living Translation (©2007)
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
English Standard Version (©2001)
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Islam is for all of mankind!

all the best

[Woodrow]

Greetings and Peace Freethinking,

I am a little too old to carry more than one thought at a time. So at this moment I primarily just want to clarify one point. That is the definition of the word Injil it is often translated as Gospel and that is a reasonably accurate translation. But it does not refer specifically to the book of Mark, Mathew, Luke and John although many of us myself included believe that parts of the Gospel are included in those books, most notably the Quotes of Jesus(as). However, to be more exact it is best to say the Injil is the words revealed to Jesus (as) and seems not many of those were preserved.

The Gospels of today are basically a description of and about Jesus(as), and except what was accurately preserved (which we have no indisputable proof of, if any were preserved) we can not say the words of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are the words of Allaah(swt) only what Jesus(as) spoke from the Injil would be the words of Allaah(swt)

[freethinking]

The man you worship as god was sent for a select few per your bible:



Islam is for all of mankind!

all the best

Yes you have used one small Quote of Jesus many times here, one would have been sufficient thanks. However you have not placed it in contect and many other parts of the same Gospels show Jeus teaching and helpiung gentiles as well as Jews. What is the meaning of this? I understand from God that the House of Israel includes ALL who want to know God and to Follow him and therefore can include all people. This is Spiritual understanding from God.
with respect that was a cheap shot

Bless you to know the Truth

[freethinking]

Islamirama
Jesus did say a comforter - not a prophet - would come who would help those who follow God to rememebr all Jesus had taught whilst on earth as well as to spread the Good news. He said it will happen soon not 700 years later and it is eveident that the Disciples received the Holy Spirit just days after Jesus ascended to his Father for they went out and began to Preach the Gospel to all and how it grew from these few people in such a hositle environment is truely a miricle

God is Great
Peace and all Gods Blessing to you

[Woodrow]

Islamirama
Jesus did say a comforter - not a prophet - would come who would help those who follow God to rememebr all Jesus had taught whilst on earth as well as to spread the Good news. He said it will happen soon not 700 years later and it is eveident that the Disciples received the Holy Spirit just days after Jesus ascended to his Father for they went out and began to Preach the Gospel to all and how it grew from these few people in such a hositle environment is truely a miricle

God is Great
Peace and all Gods Blessing to you

Did Jesus(as) say comforter? What ever it was he said has translated as comforter. but what did he actually say. We do know that the Lingua Populis among the Jews at that time was Aramaic. Hebrew was not spoken as a daily language since at least the time of Ezekiel. Jesus would have spoken to his Jewish followers in Aramaic. We do know that his alleged last words were in Aramaic "Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani" now what was it Jesus(as) actually said in John 14:15-17 which was translated into Greek and the word used was Parkletos which in Greek more accurately means Advocate. Now the Question is what was the Aramaic word that got translated into the Greek Parakletos? It most likely was "Omalaak" while that can be Translated into Greek as Parakletos a direct translation of Omalaak into English would be "Advocate or Prophet" Now the big problem is we do not know what Aramaic word Jesus(as) used and have no right to say he said "Comforter" that is an assumption made by those who desire the Bible to meet and verify their beliefs, which may not have been the teaching of Jesus(as).

Show us what Jesus(as) actually said in Aramaic and give us a direct Translation of it into English, without going through Greek and Latin.

[جوري]

Yes you have used one small Quote of Jesus many times here, one would have been sufficient thanks. However you have not placed it in contect and many other parts of the same Gospels show Jeus teaching and helpiung gentiles as well as Jews. What is the meaning of this? I understand from God that the House of Israel includes ALL who want to know God and to Follow him and therefore can include all people. This is Spiritual understanding from God.
with respect that was a cheap shot

Bless you to know the Truth

a messenger is supposed to be helpful it isn't a big conundrum.. now if he is sent to other people beside the lost sheep while clearly your bible says 'only' to the lost sheep it denotes that there are contradictions in your bible and well we all know that is true but I am not sure how you personally justify it. We don't follow books that have no textual integrity and are aimed at a select few!

BTW I don't see how quoting your own text is a cheap shot? you are funny.. don't withhold information and be deliberately deceitful like the missionaries you send to exchange conversions for food or medicine! your god wouldn't want that!

all the best

[freethinking]

Did Jesus(as) say comforter? What ever it was he said has translated as comforter. but what did he actually say. We do know that the Lingua Populis among the Jews at that time was Aramaic. Hebrew was not spoken as a daily language since at least the time of Ezekiel. Jesus would have spoken to his Jewish followers in Aramaic. We do know that his alleged last words were in Aramaic "Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani" now what was it Jesus(as) actually said in John 14:15-17 which was translated into Greek and the word used was Parkletos which in Greek more accurately means Advocate. Now the Question is what was the Aramaic word that got translated into the Greek Parakletos? It most likely was "Omalaak" while that can be Translated into Greek as Parakletos a direct translation of Omalaak into English would be "Advocate or Prophet" Now the big problem is we do not know what Aramaic word Jesus(as) used and have no right to say he said "Comforter" that is an assumption made by those who desire the Bible to meet and verify their beliefs, which may not have been the teaching of Jesus(as).

Show us what Jesus(as) actually said in Aramaic and give us a direct Translation of it into English, without going through Greek and Latin.

Brother Woodrow, I will be seeing a freind tomorrow who knows somew shchiolarly Aramaic and see what I can learn on this and feed back to your request but for now with Respectt consider these related passages from John By Jeus which gives a cleaer picture if you read with an open heart and mind.
JOHN 14:15-17: "If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you."
JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."
JOHN 16:7,8: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment...."
JOHN 16:13-15: "But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it know to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."


I think that these passages are clear enough to undertand it is the Holy Spirit which is what the Pentecost was all about



Jeus also said in response to a Jewish critic When he worked with sinners, "You do not send a doctor to heal the healthy"



God Bless you

[Woodrow]

Brother Woodrow, I will be seeing a freind tomorrow who knows somew shchiolarly Aramaic and see what I can learn on this and feed back to your request but for now with Respectt consider these related passages from John By Jeus which gives a cleaer picture if you read with an open heart and mind.
JOHN 14:15-17: "If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you."
JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."
JOHN 16:7,8: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment...."
JOHN 16:13-15: "But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it know to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."


I think that these passages are clear enough to undertand it is the Holy Spirit which is what the Pentecost was all about



Jeus also said in response to a Jewish critic When he worked with sinners, "You do not send a doctor to heal the healthy"



God Bless you

Peace Freethinker, This is one reason I left Christianity.

Note that not one of those statements are the direct words of Jesus(as). They are second hand information at best coming from the words of a witness. But a problem arises as to when the Books of John were written and exactly who was the Author. There is considerable disagreement over the time frame for the writing of and the actual authors of the 4 gospels. While many Christian Theologians place the writing of the books of John having been written between 64 and 94 AD some place them as having been written as late as 300 AD. But, in no event are the gospels the words of Jesus(as) at best they are recollections of what he said, written at a minimum of 30 years after he said them.

At no point do we ever have any verification by Jesus(as) that what he is quoted as saying, is what he actually said.

When you see your friend, try to find out what dialect of Aramaic he is knowledgeable in. Except for a small group of Jews currently living in Northern Iraq, the Aramaic of the Talmud (Which is what Jesus(AS) spoke) ceased to be a spoken language by about 200 AD and was replaced by the Syriac (Pe****ta) Aramaic spoken by the Christian Coptics and Christian Nazarenes and continues to be spoken by them. It is similar to the Aramaic of the Talmud, but is deeply influenced by the Early Greek Christians. In Pe****ta Aramaic the word for comforter is parlaqeet and came from the Greek Paraclete. However, it is not a word that would have existed in the Talmud Aramaic Jesus(AS) spoke.

[جوري]

^^ it is interesting you should say that.. my dad has an Iraqi friend who speaks Aramaic he's actually a mandean not a Jew and their understanding of the 'bible' is a far cry from what westerners use, believe or assume..

:w:

[Banu_Hashim]

We know of an Iraqi Christian Aramaic speaking family.

I think Iraq is one the few places left that speak the language. There's a small village in Syria which is, I think, the only town/village in the world where purely Aramaic is spoken. I can't remember the name though :/.

[Woodrow]

^^ it is interesting you should say that.. my dad has an Iraqi friend who speaks Aramaic he's actually a mandean not a Jew and their understanding of the 'bible' is a far cry from what westerners use, believe or assume..

:w:

:sl:

You are correct. I forgot all about the Mandeans, they are remnants of the Sabians from the time of Isa(as) and they do speak the Talmud Aramaic.

The various Aramaic speaking Christians usually speak the Syriac or Peshetta Aramaic which while being a Semitic language the Aramaic of Syria does differ considerably from the Aramaic of the time of Isa(AS)
The Ancient Aramaic, which by 200AD ended being the common spoken language of the Jews, is nearly identical with Arabic except it uses the Phonecian alphabet, but is often transliterated into Arabic or Hebrew letters and sometimes a combination. Typically a person who understands either spoken Hebrew or Arabic will have a good understanding of spoken ancient Aramaic

You are very correct the Mandeans (Sabians such as John the Baptist) do have a very different view of Jesus(as) than the Christians do even though Jesus(AS) did at one time associate with John the Baptist.

[Woodrow]

We know of an Iraqi Christian Aramaic speaking family.

I think Iraq is one the few places left that speak the language. There's a small village in Syria which is, I think, the only town/village in the world where purely Aramaic is spoken. I can't remember the name though :/.

The Aramaic of Syria is Peshetta and does differ from the Aramaic prior to 200AD, it seems to have a lot of Greek words adapted into it.

[Banu_Hashim]

The Aramaic of Syria is Peshetta and does differ from the Aramaic prior to 200AD, it seems to have a lot of Greek words adapted into it.

Oh, ok. I didn't know that.

Here's the news report on the place in Syria I was talking about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8602442.stm

[Woodrow]

Oh, ok. I didn't know that.

Here's the news report on the place in Syria I was talking about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8602442.stm

It is probably the last place outside of parts of Iraq where any form of Aramaic is spoken. Maaloula is Christian, Greek Orthodox, and the Armaic is Peshetta, Not quite as old as the Ancient Aramaic spoken in parts of Iraq. The Bible used by them is translated from the Greek Bible into Syriac Aramaic (Peshetta).

[freethinking]

Greetings, I have indeed spoken to my friend and have been informed that ALL the Gospels were first written in greek.

However the queotes I gave above taken together in context as far as I am concerned amount to a clear understanding that was talking about the Holy Spirit,

I would also love to know what books of all the BIble are not taken as credible by Learned muslims

Peace to you all

[Rabi Mansur]

Show us what Jesus(as) actually said in Aramaic and give us a direct Translation of it into English, without going through Greek and Latin.

I would be very interested in what he comes up with. There seems to be a world of difference between Aramaic and Koine Greek.

:wa:

[Woodrow]

Greetings, I have indeed spoken to my friend and have been informed that ALL the Gospels were first written in greek.

Greetings and Peace

I agree, the Gospels were written in Koine Greek. In fact Koine Greek is also called Biblical Greek and New Testement Greek. It was the Vulgate Greek and became the lingua franca of early Christians although the Greek of the educated populace and used by them for important or valued writing was in the Attic Greek from Attica(Athens). While Greek would have been understood by many of the people in the region of Jerusalem the common spoken language was Aramaic until at least 200 AD. Latin would have been the second most commonly spoken language after Aramaic as the region was under Roman Rule.

The use of Greek in the Gospels seems to be an indication they were either the result of Greek beliefs into Christianity or they were written specifically for a Greek speaking population. To think Isa(as) "Jesus" spoke Koine Greek seems to be as far off reality as believing he spoke the Elizabethian English of the KJV.

However the queotes I gave above taken together in context as far as I am concerned amount to a clear understanding that was talking about the Holy Spirit,

My reply above is why I believe they came more from Greek Mythology than from the teachings of Isa(as). The concept of a Holy Spirit is very much Ancient Greek and bears resemblance to AMPHIARAOS (or Amphiaraus) after he became a spirit.

AMPHIARAOS who after being swallowed up by the Earth during the battle of the 7 against Thebes, returned as a spirit and filled men with the god Zeus.

I would also love to know what books of all the BIble are not taken as credible by Learned Muslims

Peace to you all

And Peace to you and all of mankind,

You will find some differences of opinion by different scholars. Some will state that none have any credibility. Others will state that some possibly most contain some of Allaah(swt)'s words. Although from what I personally believe and see from scholars is that the OT does have a lot of truth. But it was for a specific people at a specific time. Much of it has been completed or does not pertain. There are also some fallacies or mistranslation in much of the OT and it is difficult if not impossible to separate Allaah(swt)'s actual commands from what was added or changed or deleted.

None of the Books of the NT are the word of God(swt) all are opinions of alleged witnesses. It is possible (I think probable) that at least some of the quotes attributed to Jesus(as) are translations of what he said, but they are not his Actual words.

[freethinking]

Thats a real shame as itr means peoplle can pick and choose what they like to suit them whereas I believe God can protect the integrity of His words.

The dead sea scrolls certainly support great tracts of the old testement and even allude to the debate betwen Peter and Paul in the new testament.

I have read that the book of Isaiah in particualr is virtually identical to the modern Bibles and Daniel too only ever so slightly different in about 0/01 % of words styisticlly ony, and as they go back beyond Jeus time this to me is greatly significant indeed.
Isaiah foretell of Jesus ministry indeed for me
I will habe a new question for you soon but interested in your response to this.
Thank you so much for your help
God Bless you

[جوري]

Thats a real shame as itr means peoplle can pick and choose what they like to suit them whereas I believe God can protect the integrity of His words.

Does that apply to you, for instance as you have demonstrated on the other thread alleging said verses are written of the previous religions when clearly they are not!

The dead sea scrolls certainly support great tracts of the old testement and even allude to the debate betwen Peter and Paul in the new testament.

Really do share!

I have read that the book of Isaiah in particualr is virtually identical to the modern Bibles and Daniel too only ever so slightly different in about 0/01 % of words styisticlly ony, and as they go back beyond Jeus time this to me is greatly significant indeed.
Isaiah foretell of Jesus ministry indeed for me
I will habe a new question for you soon but interested in your response to this.
Thank you so much for your help
God Bless you

We are glad your books are supportive of each other if in fact there is any truth to that, it still doesn't change the fact of the matter.. Jesus as a prophet was only sent to the Jews ...

New International Version (©1984)
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." New Living Translation (©2007)
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
English Standard Version (©2001)
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

since your bible retained its 'textual integrity' and verity, we have no choice but to accept the above as a fact.. his minstery was no different than those messengers sent before him, to a select few tribes..

we have already responded to this before.. it would perhaps to read the responses in lieu of desiring responses that cater to your whims?

all the best

[Woodrow]

Thats a real shame as itr means peoplle can pick and choose what they like to suit them whereas I believe God can protect the integrity of His words.

I see it as meaning we as individuals are responsible to verify the truth of what we read and not accept it as truth because the council of Nicea said it was true and than suppressed any contradicting writings of the era and called them gnostic. Why were those specific books selected to be the truth and others by equally reliable contemporary authors get destroyed or hidden? Who is responsible for your finding the truth, you or the councils of the early Christian Councils?

The dead sea scrolls certainly support great tracts of the old testement and even allude to the debate betwen Peter and Paul in the new testament.

You may want to research more about the Essenes (Probable authors of the scrolls) before deciding if they support Christianity. The Essenes were a break away Secretive Judaic sect and were considered heretic by both Jews and Early Christians.

I have read that the book of Isaiah in particualr is virtually identical to the modern Bibles and Daniel too only ever so slightly different in about 0/01 % of words styisticlly ony, and as they go back beyond Jeus time this to me is greatly significant indeed.
Isaiah foretell of Jesus ministry indeed for me

See my answer above.

I will habe a new question for you soon but interested in your response to this.
Thank you so much for your help
God Bless you

Peace,

I will answer to the best of my ability. I may disagree with you, I believe it is possible for people to disagree and remain peaceful towards each other.

[freethinking]

I see it as meaning we as individuals are responsible to verify the truth of what we read and not accept it as truth because the council of Nicea said it was true and than suppressed any contradicting writings of the era and called them gnostic. Why were those specific books selected to be the truth and others by equally reliable contemporary authors get destroyed or hidden? Who is responsible for your finding the truth, you or the councils of the early Christian Councils?
Blessings to you Woodrow, I echo your agreeable thoughts verily.
God is of course responsible for me finding the truth and this is for me much more of a supernatural (i.e spiritual revelation)journey than it is through simply reading the words of scripture and expecting to understand them like any human academic book.
Furthermore my understanding of the Gnostic Gospels is that they were written significantly later than the cannonical Gospels and that some of the Gnostics were Jewish people, yet not Genuine Christians. I do however take the apocrypha into account and endeavour to read these too. They are therefore not denied to me



You may want to research more about the Essenes (Probable authors of the scrolls) before deciding if they support Christianity. The Essenes were a break away Secretive Judaic sect and were considered heretic by both Jews and Early Christians.
Indeed but not by ALL Christians, The Essenes were a strict Torah observant, Messianic, apocalyptic, Baptist, wilderness, new covenant Jewish sect. They were led by a priest they called the "Teacher of Righteousness," who was opposed and possibly killed by the establishment priesthood in Jerusalem






See my answer above.
Regardless of who wrote the scrolls, in any case they do indeed cover at least parts of every book in the OT accept the Book of Esther.
and many of the significant propecies which cocern Jesus and chime with what is recoded in the NT profoundly, ask Our Father if you do not believe me.






Peace,

I will answer to the best of my ability. I may disagree with you, I believe it is possible for people to disagree and remain peaceful towards each other.

Thank you again, it is a ral pleasure for me to grow in understanding through the peaceful exchange of understandings and non offensive debate.
MAY THE LORD bLESS YOU