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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 05:09 PM
Salam,

I read an article about Turkish society and how it's rapidly 'westernizing'. In urban centers, zina has become the norm. Even young girls aged 16-17 are having sex outside marriage and even worse; they don't hide it anymore, there is no shame whatsoever. People seem to have accepted this 'new' lifestyle. Once, Turkey was a Muslim nation, but not anymore. I feel so sad and ashamed.

Maybe I should change my nationality and become Egyptian or Malaysian or Saudi Arabian. Please don't tell me it's the same in your country. To what extent do you think western culture and porn and other filth is affecting your country? This is deeply saddening, I really can't believe it because only 15-20 years ago this was inconceivable.
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 05:15 PM
I think this is called 'soft war' or power, the West is destroying Muslim countries from within and very succesfully! Let's not fool ourselves.
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Nokiacrazi
04-12-2010, 05:17 PM
Agreed. This will stop when and only whe, the Muslims all return to the Qur'an and Sunnah insha'allah.
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 05:20 PM
Well, obviously, that's not the case. People are turning to kufr.
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Nokiacrazi
04-12-2010, 05:23 PM
Trust me, if anyone who ever said the sha'hada, and implemented the Qur'an and Sunnah into our lives, surely we would not be being corrupted.
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cat eyes
04-12-2010, 05:28 PM
but why this is shocking sure i see it all the time muslims getting non muslim girls pregnant outside of marriage. this is nothing new in the west

on top of that what influence are they giving to the non muslims also. they are not representing islam so they should be all punished by shariah

nowadays im seeing christcian girls waiting outside of the mosque for there muslim boyfriends.
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aadil77
04-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
I think this is called 'soft war' or power, the West is destroying Muslim countries from within and very succesfully! Let's not fool ourselves.
Western ideas have always been the worst thing to have ever affected the ummah, the islamic caliphate broke down because of western idea of nationalism.
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
but why this is shocking sure i see it all the time muslims getting non muslim girls pregnant outside of marriage. this is nothing new in the west

on top of that what influence are they giving to the non muslims also. they are not representing islam so they should be all punished by shariah

nowadays im seeing christcian girls waiting outside of the mosque for there muslim boyfriends.
We are not talking about Muslims in the West, but Muslims in Turkey. You know, that so-called Muslim country.

And why would you pray at a mosque when you have a girlfriend 'waiting outside'?! What kind of nonsense is this, do these people think they are fooling God? A large number of Muslims seem to think that as long as they pray they will enter heaven regardless of what they do.
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marwen
04-12-2010, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Turkey was a Muslim nation, but not anymore. I feel so sad and ashamed.
No, Turkey is still a Muslim nation, But the problem is that the Turkish government is no more applying the basic islamic laws. You can't have a Muslim community just by gathering muslim people, you should also provide an islamic leading/government : punishment (for zina, killing, robbery...), promotion of islam, making Ibadah more easy for people, that's the responsibility of the islamic goverment. Believe me, without a good islamic government/leading muslims can easily make horrible sins.
I'm not well informed about the turkish government, but I think it's tending to be laic (secular), because they think Islam is a brake for "progress" and "freedom" (the dream of some "Kamal Ataturk" guy). Actually many other islamic governments are doing the same thing under the pressure of the west. There is many islamic countries (other than Turkey) where goverment is banning the hijab in some places : do you think this type of government will care about stopping zina or wine drinking by muslims ?

We are all in the same "pot" , May allah help us and protect us from this fitna.
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by marwen
No, Turkey is still a Muslim nation, But the problem is that the Turkish government is no more applying the basic islamic laws. You can't have a Muslim community just by gathering muslim people, you should also provide an islamic leading/government : punishment (for zina, killing, robbery...), promotion of islam, making Ibadah more easy for people, that's the responsibility of the islamic goverment. Believe me, without a good islamic government/leading muslims can easily make horrible sins.
I'm not well informed about the turkish government, but I think it's tending to be laic (secular), because they think Islam is a brake for "progress" and "freedom" (the dream of some "Kamal Ataturk" guy). Actually many other islamic governments are doing the same thing under the pressure of the west. There is many islamic countries (other than Turkey) where goverment is banning the hijab in some places : do you think this type of government will care about stopping zina or wine drinking by muslims ?

We are all in the same "pot" , May allah help us and protect us from this fitna.
Well, there is a "Presidency of Religious Affairs" but I have no idea what they are doing!

Here is their site in English; http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/English/default.asp
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جوري
04-12-2010, 06:35 PM
:sl: Argamemnon surely as you know that Turkey is becoming westernized you must also know that it is prophesized that it will be won back with two words ''Allah Akbar'' for now you can guard yourself and change what you can however small and have faith that Allah's promise shall be fulfilled insha'Allah..

:w:
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Cabdullahi
04-12-2010, 07:00 PM
islam will return to turkey and as you probably know this has slowly started already..they've had enough of secularism
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aadil77
04-12-2010, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
:sl: Argamemnon surely as you know that Turkey is becoming westernized you must also know that it is prophesized that it will be won back with two words ''Allah Akbar'' for now you can guard yourself and change what you can however small and have faith that Allah's promise shall be fulfilled insha'Allah..

:w:
InshAllah, Can you give me some references about this please, is it a sign thats meant to be fulfilled?
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جوري
04-12-2010, 07:11 PM
Abd'Allâh ibn 'Amr said, "I went to the Prophet (peace be upon him) one day whilst he was performing Wudu' (ablution) slowly and carefully. He raised his head, looked at me and said, 'Six things will happen to this Ummah: the death of your Prophet - 'and when I heard that I was aghast,' - this is the first. The second is that your wealth will increase so much that if a man were given ten thousand, he would still not be content with it. The third is that tribulation will enter the house of every one of you. The fourth is that sudden death will be widespread. The fifth is a peace-treaty between you and the Romans: they will gather troops against you for nine months - like a woman's period of childbearing - then they will be the first to break the treaty. The sixth is the conquest of a city.' I asked, 'O Messenger of Allâh, which city?' He said, 'Constantinople.' " (Ahmad)
After the battle with the Romans, which ended with the conquest of Constantinople, the Dajjal will appear, and Jesus son of Mary will descend from Heaven to the earth, to the white minaret in the east of Damascus, at the time of Salat al-Fajr (the morning prayer), as we shall see in the Saheeh Traditions.
Dhu Mukhammar said, "The Prophet (pbuh) said, 'You will make a peace-treaty with the Romans, and together you will invade an enemy beyond Rome. You will be victorious and take much booty. Then you will camp in a hilly pasture; one of the Roman men will come and raise a cross and say "Victory to the Cross", so one of the Muslims will come and kill him. Then the Romans will break the treaty, and there will be a battle. They will gather an army against you and come against you with eighty banners, each banner followed by 10,000 men.' " (Ahmad, Abû Dâwûd, Ibn Majah.)

Abû Hurayrah said, "The Prophet said, 'The Hour will not come until the Romans camp at al-A'mash or Dabiq. An army, composed of the best people on earth at that time, will come out from Madînah to meet them. When they have arranged themselves in ranks, the Romans will say, 'Do not stand between us and those who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them.' One-third will run away, and Allâh will never forgive them. One-third will be killed, and they will be the best of martyrs in Allâh's sight. One-third, who will never be subjected to trials or tribulations, will win, and will conquer Constantinople. Whilst they are sharing out the booty, after hanging their swords on the olive-trees, Satan will shout to them that the Dajjal has taken their place among their families. When they come to Syria, the Dajjal will appear, while they are preparing for battle and drawing up the ranks. When the time for prayer comes, Jesus the son of Mary will descend and lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allâh (i.e. the Dajjal) sees him, he will start to dissolve like salt in water, but Allâh will kill him.' " (Muslim.)

The Prophet said, "The Hour will not come until the furthest border of the Muslims will be in Bula." Then he said, "O 'Alî!" 'Alî said, "May my father and mother be sacrificed for you!" The Prophet said, "You will fight the Romans, and those who come after you will fight them, until the best people among the Muslims, the people of al-Hijaz, will go out to fight them, fearing nothing but Allâh. They will conquer Constantinople with Tasbih and Takbir (saying "Subhan Allâh" and "Allâhu Akbar"), and they will obtain booty the like of which has never been seen - they will share it out by scooping it up with their sheilds. Someone will come and say, 'The Dajjal has appeared in your land', but he will be lying. Anyone who takes notice of him will regret it, and anyone who ignores him will regret it." (Ibn Majah.)


http://www.lutonmuslims.co.uk/Signs.htm
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islamirama
04-12-2010, 07:19 PM
Indeed Turkey inshallah will return to Islam. It was Salahu-din who took back Falasteen and other Muslim lands from the crusaders. I believe he was turkish. The last Khalifah was in Turkey. The jew kemal abolishd turkey and changed it to an secular extremist state but inshallah they are coming back. Erdogan and his islamic party has won and are in charge now. Previously attempts of Islamic parties to win were disrupted by the secular army but not this time. Turkey, a very close alley of israel once is no more, Islam is spreading more and more youth are returning to islam. The secular old fools and remnants of kemal's terrorist kuffar regime are dieing away. inshallah only matter of time before turkey rises again against the kuffars once more.
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tango92
04-12-2010, 07:46 PM
^Alhamdullilah, that comforts me. in my college there are many turkish kids, i only found out they were muslim after my first year.
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
:sl: Argamemnon surely as you know that Turkey is becoming westernized you must also know that it is prophesized that it will be won back with two words ''Allah Akbar'' for now you can guard yourself and change what you can however small and have faith that Allah's promise shall be fulfilled insha'Allah..

:w:
:sl: Insha'Allah.. I don't want to be part of a country like that. I'm very pessimistic by nature as you may have noticed.

:w:
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GuCcI
04-12-2010, 08:58 PM
Turkey is gorgeous... I tihnk we all have bad aspects in our countries and cultures, you just take the good and leave the bad. And I think most countries fantacize about being more western... countries where half the population is living on the street look how to modernify their lifestyles - speaking from what I've seen that is - so it's not just Turkey.
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
islam will return to turkey and as you probably know this has slowly started already..they've had enough of secularism
Actually, that's not true. Turkey is westernizing even more. The difference is that those people in rural areas, who are traditionally deeply attached to Islam, are now becoming more educated and more powerful in society - including women. They are now participating in politics, business and in other fields.

Originally Posted by GuCcI
I tihnk we all have bad aspects in our countries and cultures, you just take the good and leave the bad. And I think most countries fantacize about being more western... countries where half the population is living on the street look how to modernify their lifestyles - speaking from what I've seen that is - so it's not just Turkey.
Unlike most other Muslim nations, in Turkey we have "gay pride parades" and atheist organizations.
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GuCcI
04-12-2010, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Unlike most other Muslim nations, in Turkey we have "gay pride parades" and atheist organizations.
Okay, so I dont know of any other 'muslim country' that has those, but think of it this way - what about those who are born in non-muslim countries, canada, US, etc. and become muslim later on. their nationalities too, have these aspects which they are not proud of. If you can't change something with your own hands then the least you can do is hate it in your heart. And I think you do that pretty well :) It's dissapointing I know, but looking at it on a more personal level and not a national scale, I'd rather be more concered about what I'm doing right and wrong.
Anyway, at least Turkey will return... I don't see hope for my own country lol :p
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 09:13 PM
In this tv show with students, evolutionists are debating with Muslims. This atheist professor openly claims that all religions will eventually disappear as science continues to progress. Can you imagine such a thing happening in Egypt, for example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdvQ8zmhaIc
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islamirama
04-12-2010, 09:16 PM
All religions will disappear because science is making progress? The ignorant atheist needs to go learn some history, greatest science progress made in the past was from those that were very religious. Read Islamic history alone and he will find it was the practicing Muslims whose science progress took the europe out of their dark ages and without experts say today that europe never would have had a Renaissance.
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جوري
04-12-2010, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
:sl: Insha'Allah.. I don't want to be part of a country like that. I'm very pessimistic by nature as you may have noticed.

:w:
I don't find you pessimistic, I find you realistic and that can turn anyone into a cynic.. it is a part of gaining wisdom, but that must be tempered with proper Islamic knowledge and the desire for guidance from Allah swt..

:w:
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
All religions will disappear because science is making progress? The ignorant atheist needs to go learn some history, greatest science progress made in the past was from those that were very religious. Read Islamic history alone and he will find it was the practicing Muslims whose science progress took the europe out of their dark ages and without experts say today that europe never would have had a Renaissance.
I'm sorry that was a really bad translation on my part, LOL...
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Danah
04-12-2010, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
nowadays im seeing christcian girls waiting outside of the mosque for there muslim boyfriends.
Now this is something! What kind of rudeness is this that will make them so proud of having their girlfriends waiting them outside the mosque??

Originally Posted by Argamemnon

And why would you pray at a mosque when you have a girlfriend 'waiting outside'?! What kind of nonsense is this, do these people think they are fooling God? A large number of Muslims seem to think that as long as they pray they will enter heaven regardless of what they do.
Simply because many Muslims deal with prayers as a habit that has to be done anyways...or to just looks like a Muslim in the eyes of others. Its the same when we see some sisters wear hijab and when you ask them why? they will tell you: "we just used to it and it become a daily habit"!!
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Supreme
04-12-2010, 09:59 PM
Well, I've been to one of the most beautiful cities in the history of mankind before- Istanbul. Once the center of Christianity, then the capital of the Ottoman Empire, and now it is a largely secularized city. When I went there, Islam was more of a cultural thing than a religious thing, much like Christianity is in Britain nowadays. Sure, there were mosques on every street corner, and I even went into one of the pinnacles of Christian architecture, the Hagia Sophia, which is a glorious church turned mosque turned museum. It was actually rather poignant how the Hagia Sophia, once the largest mosque in the world, is now a museum. It was an accurate refelection on Turkey as a whole. Many women there weren't wearing hijab, and there was alcohol being sold in many shops. I couldn't decide whether or not I was happy at Turkey's transition into Western culture or appalled, and I still cannot decide whether it is a good or bad thing.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
04-12-2010, 10:23 PM
^^ I would say its a bad thing...
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Banu_Hashim
04-12-2010, 10:26 PM
Educate the youth! The youth are the key to saving the country!

If you instil in them love for their religion, a strong adherence to the Qur'aan and Sunnah and Islamic morals and ettiquettes then Turkey as a Muslim nation will be saved inshaAllah Ta'ala! The youth are the future leaders.
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جوري
04-12-2010, 10:35 PM
The problem with Turkey is much the same with Iran unfortunately.. they were too proud to let go of their roots when embracing Islam, though I am not a fan of Egypt's govt. and its inability to rid itself of its Pharaohs to modern day, it was a country of prime example of how for all their vast civilization they embraced Islam fully, language and all so that even under a shiite empire they have retained the proper path of the sunnah. Iranians are always boasting they are Persians 'not Arabs' and the same with Turks.. well there is no distinction amongst Muslims as it so happens there is no difference of an Arab over a non-Arab save for piety!
but I must admit that the few Turks that I know are very religious and there are five of them.. masha'Allah completely the opposite of the two Iranians I know although I am trying desperately with one of them and I think insha'Allah it might work..

:w:
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Banu_Hashim
04-12-2010, 10:39 PM
I still cant believe how Turkey could let itself become secular, subhaanAllah :(
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Supreme
04-12-2010, 10:40 PM
I hear there are tensions in Turkey between the religious government and the secular army. Is that true?
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islamirama
04-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Exactly, if there's nothing you can learn on your own than learn from your enemies. First thing Kemal the kuffar did was abolish arabic and set up institutions that taught turkish and nationalism to its youths. You had youths in the army saying Kemal is a god (audbillah), education of the youth is the key to success or ruin of a society. Why do you think the west is so desperately trying to educate Muslim youths based on their curriculum and approved books. I hear Pakistanis don't even learn their own history from their sources but from British approved and printed English books. Whose history are you reading, your own or one from those who colonized you?
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Banu_Hashim
04-12-2010, 10:47 PM
Allahumma anqithil muslimeena fi kulli makaan!

This is why it is sooo important to learn our history, to learn fiqh, to know our mistakes so we can too learn from them. At certain points in history the Muslims dominated such vast parts of the world, from Europe to China. What were our weaknesses?
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Nokiacrazi
04-12-2010, 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
We are not talking about Muslims in the West, but Muslims in Turkey. You know, that so-called Muslim country.

And why would you pray at a mosque when you have a girlfriend 'waiting outside'?! What kind of nonsense is this, do these people think they are fooling God? A large number of Muslims seem to think that as long as they pray they will enter heaven regardless of what they do.
This is the problem.
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Argamemnon
04-12-2010, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Iranians are always boasting they are Persians 'not Arabs' and the same with Turks.. :w:
In the 19th century most Turks/Anatolians didn't even know they were Turks, they only knew they were "Muslim". Turkish language was more like a mix of Persian (Farsi) and Arabic. This immense pride of being Turkish, or more precisely the concept of nationalism and racism was slowly adopted from the West after the French revolution..

I think Arabs can be pretty nationalist too. Even Saudis are extremely nationalistic, they don't even care about other Arab countries. I don't want to know what they think about Turks or Iranians, lol. :w:
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جوري
04-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
In the 19th century most Turks/Anatolians didn't even know they were Turks, they only knew they were "Muslim". This immense pride of being Turkish, or more precisely the concept of nationalism and even racism was slowly adopted from the West after the French revolution..

I think Arabs can be pretty nationalist too. Even Saudis are extremely nationalistic, they don't even care about other Arab countries. I don't want to know what they think about Turks or Iranians, lol. :w:
Then I think they who have vested interest in keeping us hateful toward one another has succeeded and it is so unfortunate and with a sorry heart that I agree with you I think that is why Allah swt in his noble book describes those given knowledge as very few.. so the best we can hope for now at least is to be of those few..

also akhi pls let me add if you know someone who does pray know that it is a monumental feat now a days and actually is a good start.. can't tell you how many members of my own family whose parents are very religious don't even know how to perform salaat or make one and miss twenty (and I used to be one of them) Imagine learning and adapting to prayer in your twenties and practicing for a few years to be counted on one hand..al7mdlillah that some even if ignorant in many aspects are at least observant in one which in fact is the most important one that creates the schism between a Muslim and a kaffir!

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
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Argamemnon
04-13-2010, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
Imagine learning and adapting to prayer in your twenties and practicing for a few years to be counted on one hand..al7mdlillah that some even if ignorant in many aspects are at least observant in one which in fact is the most important one that creates the schism between a Muslim and a kaffir!

and Allah swt knows best

:w:
so true..I have actually started praying about 6 months ago or so. I have relatives who pray, but also many who don't.. or not regularly. I even know some who don't fast (they didn't last year anyway) :w:
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TrueStranger
04-13-2010, 03:45 AM
Turkey, leader of the Muslim world?


In mid-March, Turkish President Abdullah Gul travelled to Cameroon for his country’s first trade mission to a central African nation. He got a warm welcome, The Economist reported. “Turkey must reclaim its mantle,” one Islamic cleric told him, “as leader of the Islamic world.” In this context, you’re not talking restoration of the Ottoman Empire – you’re talking expansion. Although the Ottoman Empire embraced Egypt, Libya, Algeria and Sudan, it never reached central Africa. For its part, The Economist recognized the credibility of resurrected Turkish ambitions. African countries have bitter memories of Western colonialists and Arab slave traders, the magazine noted. In contrast, they regard Turks as enlightened and humane.

Read political scientist George Friedman’s The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century and you find yourself pondering – almost against your will – the apparent implications of otherwise insignificant news events. You’ll be skeptical, for instance, of Mr. Friedman’s assertion that Turkey will put together an Ottoman alliance before 2050 – with Ankara the capital of a Muslim brotherhood of nations that stretches from Bosnia-Herzegovina to Saudi Arabia, from Morocco to Afghanistan. Yet, Mr. Friedman presents his geopolitical analysis with a stern and, in many ways, compelling logic.

Why would Turkey emerge as the leader of the Muslim world? Mr. Friedman notes that Turkey is the richest Muslim country – the only Muslim country with “a modern economy.” Turkey is the 17th-largest economy in the world with GDP of $600-billion (U.S.). Iran is 29th (GDP: $300-billion). Egypt is 52nd (GDP: $125-billion). Think of Turkey as a European country and it ranks seventh. Further, Iran is too erratic and too radical to assume regional leadership, and Pakistan is too unstable.

When the next global war breaks out, Mr. Friedman guesstimates, Turkey will join Japan to drive the United States out of the Middle East and the Pacific. He says the war is most apt to begin at 5 p.m. on Nov. 24, 2050 – American Thanksgiving – when Japan, mimicking its Second World War success at Pearl Harbor, launches a sneak attack on U.S. space-based communications satellites.

As bizarre as this prediction sounds, Mr. Friedman is no crank. Author or co-author of six books on war and peace, he is an academic who founded Stratfor, a private intelligence consulting company based in Austin, Tex. He holds a doctorate in government from Cornell University. Born in Hungary, son of Holocaust survivors, his family was a classic example of refugees who “made it” in America.

Mr. Friedman’s Next 100 Years became a New York Times bestseller when it was published a year ago. However contrary to conventional expectations (in asserting, for example, that China and Russia will both falter economically in the next two decades), this book warrants the reading time. Even where and when it’s wrong (or most apt to be wrong), Mr. Friedman’s analysis is instructive.

As with the First World War, Mr. Friedman argues, the next global conflict will be a war that no one wanted. Driven by demographic decline, Japan will feel compelled to acquire a captive work force on the Chinese mainland. Driven by the collapse of Russia, Turkey will feel compelled to bring order to anarchic neighbouring states. The U.S. will feel obliged to restrain these countries – by force.

History doesn’t necessarily repeat itself, Mr. Friedman says. But it often mimics itself. Each war creates the conditions for the next – and the perceptive observer can rationally anticipate the rise and fall of empires. The conflict that begins midway through the 21st century, he says, will be primarily a space war between Japan and the U.S. and a land war between Turkey and U.S.-allied Poland, the two countries that will seek to fill the vacuum when Russia implodes. Because most of the war will take place in space, there’ll be few civilian casualties – and perhaps only 50,000 soldiers killed in four years of war.

Who wins? Mr. Friedman says the U.S. never goes to war to achieve something, only to prevent something. For this reason, it doesn’t need to win to accomplish its objectives. This makes an American victory in war almost axiomatic. Further, the U.S. is so powerful that the rest of the world combined can’t defeat it. Mr. Friedman notes that no vessel sails anywhere in the world without the implicit protection – some would say the implicit permission – of the U.S. Navy. Like it or not, the 21st century belongs to the United States.

Incidentally, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan travelled to Sarajevo last week for the country’s first state visit to Bosnia-Herzegovina – a country that thrived as a client state of the Ottoman Empire for 400 years

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...20/?cmpid=rss1
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Skavau
04-13-2010, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
In this tv show with students, evolutionists are debating with Muslims. This atheist professor openly claims that all religions will eventually disappear as science continues to progress. Can you imagine such a thing happening in Egypt, for example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdvQ8zmhaIc
Forgive my perspective, but I should hope that free debates about metaphysical, philosophical, scientific, ethical, political and religious matters should happen.
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CosmicPathos
04-13-2010, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
The problem with Turkey is much the same with Iran unfortunately.. they were too proud to let go of their roots when embracing Islam, though I am not a fan of Egypt's govt. and its inability to rid itself of its Pharaohs to modern day, it was a country of prime example of how for all their vast civilization they embraced Islam fully, language and all so that even under a shiite empire they have retained the proper path of the sunnah. Iranians are always boasting they are Persians 'not Arabs' and the same with Turks.. well there is no distinction amongst Muslims as it so happens there is no difference of an Arab over a non-Arab save for piety!
but I must admit that the few Turks that I know are very religious and there are five of them.. masha'Allah completely the opposite of the two Iranians I know although I am trying desperately with one of them and I think insha'Allah it might work..

:w:
Iranians are a tough bunch to deal with. Their Aryanism has deluded them. Throw in their legacy of Zoroastrianism. There are many Iranians on my campus, too many. Those families who escaped 1979 revolution ... and you never knew if they are Muslim/ from back home. Well they just look like caucasians but their dressing and attitudes add to that illusion.

Nationalism is a primitive form of tribalism, in my humble estimation. Tribes used to gather on the basis of their genetic history as well as culture. Today's nationalism is very diverse. It could be British-like or Turkey-like or Persian-like. Based on similar ancestry from the "superior races" or something of that sort.

Almost every Muslim nation today has a nationalistic movement. I've been looking into for quite a while. Well of course Iran and Turkey are fine examples. Now add to that list Afghanistan and the Pakhtoon movement. The pakthtoon movement serves to gather ALL pakhtoons under one umbrella. Recently they changed the name of Pakistani province to Khyber Pakhtoonkhwa. I do not have any problem with the name change but the movement is gaining stronghold. This movement strongly abhors Taliban and wants to resort back to their pagan religions.

@ Argamennon: Regarding the rise of atheism, well you can search "Pakistani atheist" on google and you'll see many. Now, its not OPEN at a family level, people dont tell their families USUALLY and are closet atheists but at the national level, its getting opened up. We have a physicist Pervez Hoodhboy who is pretty vocal against Islamic philosophy on national arena etc. There was a time in history of mankind when being a Pakistani implied you are a Muslim. It was synonymous

Also, few weeks back I met a bengali dude, a friend introduced to him. His name is so Islamic that my guess was hes Muslim. He knew about Islam etc. Well today I thought lets add him on facebook, I searched and viola, located him and his profile picture says "Atheists, Winning Since 23 AD" and quotes Epicurus' dilemma of a good God and evil. now you tell me what do i do lol We are living in exciting times wwhere we cannot assume if a person with an Islamic name such as Abdullah is a Muslim or not ....
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Argamemnon
04-13-2010, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Forgive my perspective, but I should hope that free debates about metaphysical, philosophical, scientific, ethical, political and religious matters should happen.
I believe we should not allow western ideas and concepts which promote outright kufr to take root in Muslim societies. We should promote both science and Islamic values. Unfortunately, the latter is lacking in Turkey. Not completely lacking, but insufficient.
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Argamemnon
04-13-2010, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
You had youths in the army saying Kemal is a god (audbillah)
Never heard of that, I really don't think it's true. Turkish masses would react extremely angrily if any leader insulted Islam. This is still the case. If any Turkish politician/leader said such a thing, people would kill him on the streets. You might have read some biased "sources".

Originally Posted by mad_scientist

@ Argamennon: Regarding the rise of atheism, well you can search "Pakistani atheist" on google and you'll see many. Now, its not OPEN at a family level, people dont tell their families USUALLY and are closet atheists but at the national level, its getting opened up. We have a physicist Pervez Hoodhboy who is pretty vocal against Islamic philosophy on national arena etc. There was a time in history of mankind when being a Pakistani implied you are a Muslim. It was synonymous

Also, few weeks back I met a bengali dude, a friend introduced to him. His name is so Islamic that my guess was hes Muslim. He knew about Islam etc. Well today I thought lets add him on facebook, I searched and viola, located him and his profile picture says "Atheists, Winning Since 23 AD" and quotes Epicurus' dilemma of a good God and evil. now you tell me what do i do lol We are living in exciting times wwhere we cannot assume if a person with an Islamic name such as Abdullah is a Muslim or not ....
That's really sad. Of course people have the right to reject Islam, but why is it happening that's the question.
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CosmicPathos
04-13-2010, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Never heard of that, I really don't think it's true. Turkish masses would react extremely angrily if any leader insulted Islam. This is still the case. If any Turkish politician/leader said such a thing, people would kill him on the streets. You might have read some biased "sources".



That's really sad. Of course people have the right to reject Islam, but why is it happening that's the question.
Our thinking is effected to a great deal by our surroundings. Sure, atheists might have their own reasons to reject belief in a God. But I am sure there is a also a factor of secular life. Why believe in a God when you will get what you want based on your hard work? Why believe in a God when life is all about expressing your thoughts? Why believe in a God when that God's commandments disagree with yours? The max you can do is to "respect" to God but not believe or worship him. Thats the prevailing attitude so I see thats why most academics in developed countries are atheists. "the idea of a God is so unintelligent, how can I believe in it," is what a typical mulhid academic says to himself. I remember watching Will Smith's movie in which he is some smart medical doctor. In the dialogue he says " I dont believe in God because if there was a God then he wont left the humanity to suffer" Or something to that extent.
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islamirama
04-13-2010, 06:11 PM
We are talking about the days the kuffar jew kemal was your leader.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk; was a Jew?

The Destruction of the Khilafah - 3rd March 1924

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk: The Enemy of Islam
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believeByHEART.
04-13-2010, 07:40 PM
excuse me but if anyone dont mind, dont paint the whole country with this nonsense! yes true, alot of your young people are drawn to westernized culture especially the haram stuff, but no youth, even if they are growing muslims, can never have the FULL knowledge about life and consider every consequence that the westernized culture brings them, you may call that naive. HOWEVER, if you take care in noticing it is the capital ( Istanbul ) where you will see the majority of this haram stuff happening, and i'l remind you that is also the only part of Turkey officially known to be 'European', and that affects everything in many ways, as westernized culture is more enforced there. as you may of realised yes i am turkish, I live in the UK not the most not-haram places in the world :/ and my parents and all my family that live here and in Turkey ALWAYS put forth our morals and values and enforce it, boy if my dad heard or saw i showed so much as abit of my leg in public he'd go mental. Islam is so encrusted in our culture it will be very very hard to see us becoming un-islamic. it runs through our blood, you have to meet proper turks living in the country to understand. but hey yeah there are deluded turks who think westernized culture is better dont we have that in any nation in any human, people giving in to shaytan? also yes, there is people that think by just praying they are doing their islamic duty, but that is their PERSONAL interpretation, do the 5 pillars do as much as possible in the name of islam, good deeds, pray, zakat, pilgrimage, thats if any can afford it, you cant say even as a majority are unabiding muslims who dont follow the book properly, because you read about some secular government we have that cant reinstate us as a islamic state, and because you read about the capital and its tourist areas that you hear about abroad because thats the only thing any foreign person would be interested in! tbh im outraged, no muslim country is perfect! not every muslim is perfect! they abide by what they can, and as a muslim and turkish person ive seen that! my aunt crys everytime ive seen her when we go to Turkey because she cant do the pilgrimage! its only hypocrit muslims, which ANY NATION may have, that cause these things to arise. :@

now for the dude above calling kemal a 'kuffar' i commented on a thread stating the exact same view on here before with some sources though, and no one not even the thread opener commented back, i think i made my point clear ;)

how can you say that he was a kaffir when all he did was save the country FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE COUNTRY being run by christians and catholics invading left right and centre?! i thank HIM!! that even if this man wasn't very religious, even though he destroyed the khaliphate who infact let this happen with all their dozen wives and hogging of their royal money that wasnt invested into the country and economy! he still prevented the country from being taken over by all these multiple countries, for alll i know i'd be still living in Turkey and we'd all be talking english or french or whatever, and it will be just like every other european country we have, nicely democratic maybe, christian leaders, hey we might even be followers of the pope! fancy that? a country like that bordering iran iraq and syria? that wouldnt be pleasant to see in the present day. ATATURK, yeah i'll use that name, he was a man who believed religion should never mix with politics, and it shouldnt look what hell its bringing to the country? most of Turkey believe we will never get into the EU because we will be the only muslim state to get into it, and the pope said he doesnt approve? i have no source but my family all bang on about it, all you ever hear in Turkey is politics politics islam more politics etc etc. i dont think its right to call someone a kaffir, ALLAH KNOWS BEST as everyone repeatedly says on this forum, and in fact you have to know for YOURSELF for sure he is with information and studying you cant just tick that box like that, and give loads of internet links! its just very rude. the only fault i see now is that the country isnt doing sharia law and isnt officailly labelled islamic? but on the other hand the country is being blackmailed by benefits of joining the EU :? the country is quite split on the view. politics is deep business, you could get stabbed by gangs in turkey for saying your view in public that is disapproved by others, it can go that far..

sorry for babble, im abit stressed from stating the obvious.
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islamirama
04-13-2010, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by believeByHEART.
how can you say that he was a kaffir when all he did was save the country FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE COUNTRY being run by christians and catholics invading left right and centre?! i thank HIM!! that even if this man wasn't very religious, even though he destroyed the khaliphate.
Are you a Muslim or non-Muslim?
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believeByHEART.
04-13-2010, 08:34 PM
obvious answer, yes muslim.
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islamirama
04-13-2010, 10:37 PM
If you are a Muslim than i suggest you read the links i posted and educate yourself on this issue. The scholars of the ummah have deemed kemal a kuffar. Even kemal said he is a jew who reads the jewish book. He was an agent of the kuffars who took over turkey by force and abolished the Khalifah. He abolished arabic, salah in arabic, reading Quran in arabic, he basically abolished Islam and introduced nationalism. You won't find any scholar or educated Muslim think of this jewish kuffar as anything but an enemy of Islam. The ottoman rulers may have been corrupt, they still were a shield against the kuffars and provided protection to the Muslims. Look at what happened to Muslim lands after that.
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freethinking
04-13-2010, 10:48 PM
The apparent corruption of turkey is not of a western church or culture. It is the pure spiritual evil of the devil influenceing these people. Secularism and athiesm are also false religions and there is in Truth no country in the world which is pure in spiritual truth of any relgion or philosophy.

We are ALL unique individuals and can have a True loving one to one Spiritual relationship as long as we are Truely hungry for Truth in our Hearts.
God bless you all
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