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Salahudeen
04-18-2010, 11:11 AM
Does anyone know the beliefs of this group? I want to know more about them and how did they apply greek philosophy to Islam? and what groups exist today that use philosophy in interpretating qur'an. Also what is ta'wil or something like that, I know it means to seek the hidden meaning behind a verse. but the thing that confuses me is, if a verse has a hidden meaning how do people come to agreement about it's meaning?

2 people could say it means different things.
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-18-2010, 06:44 PM
al Mu3tazilah are one of the worst sects, they deny the attributes of Allah and claim that the Quran is created. They use philosophy to make sense of the names and attributes of Allah, thus, they strayed. Many sects arose from their aqeedah including the ash3a'ira and Maturidiyya. The Jahmiyyah are also similar.

Check out Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal's "Usool ul-Sunnah". He was tortured by the Mu3tazilah and it was said that through Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Islam was saved since he fought against the false notion that the Quran is created.

Check out this brief video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQRZuizCBFo

ta'weel is an interpretation. This is also the way of the ash3a'ira and maturidiyya to distort the meanings of Allah's siffat.

As for asmaa wa siffat and coming to an agreement on its meaning, then the salaf had an agreement so the khalaf isn't allowed to differ : )

Although I'm not a fan of the guy, its a pretty decent explanation so please read here concerning tahreef, ta'teel, ta2weel, etc.... http://www.asharis.com/creed/article...s---part-1.cfm


Btw, if you can get a copy of Lum3atil 3ittiqaad by ibn Qudaamah al Maqdisee with shar7 by ibn Uthaymeen that would be helpful. I haven't seen a book yet that breaks it down quite like that one. Shar7 al Aqeedatil Waasiteeyah is a little more difficult. Also, al mu3tazilah still exists amongst us today. They even have forums and 2/3 of Oman belongs to the Ibaadi sect. Their sect comprises of the beliefs of the khawaarij and al Mu3tazilah. Allaahul'musta3n!
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-18-2010, 06:45 PM
Hey wait a minute squiggle; I added you on MSN and you never added me! Get to it buster.
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Salahudeen
04-18-2010, 07:07 PM
I added you akhi, I just don't come online much lol I'm staying at my uncles house at the mo so things are all over the place. jazakallah khair for your reply I will definitely check out links inshallah. registered on http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe but no 1 approved my account. same with ahya forums. :(
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Salahudeen
04-18-2010, 07:17 PM
Akhi are those books in english? lol. Do you have a link to a bookshop with those boosk? :p
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
04-18-2010, 07:20 PM
:sl:

Here's a beneficial thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...utes-of-Allaah

After reading that, I'd like to advise you one thing and that is to refrain yourself from engaging in argumentation with our Asharite and Maturudi brethren. These arguments are i) way above our level, ii) differences that have existed for hundreds of years amongst our scholars and will not get solved online, and iii) no where near our top priorities as contemporary Muslims. Read it, understand it, and then follow the best of it, but don't turn it into a means of arguing with other Muslims. I'm only saying this because there are way too many places on the internet where you can sit down and argue and arguing about these things is very popular unfortunately..but at the end of the day you will only attain two things, i) wasting of time, ii) feelings of dislike for your Muslim brothers. So again, learn what the Salaf believed with the intention to please Allaah and then focus on what benefits you. My 2 cents.
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Salahudeen
04-18-2010, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Muraad
:sl:

Here's a beneficial thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...utes-of-Allaah

After reading that, I'd like to advise you one thing and that is to refrain yourself from engaging in argumentation with our Asharite and Maturudi brethren. These arguments are i) way above our level, ii) differences that have existed for hundreds of years amongst our scholars and will not get solved online, and iii) no where near our top priorities as contemporary Muslims. Read it, understand it, and then follow the best of it, but don't turn it into a means of arguing with other Muslims. I'm only saying this because there are way too many places on the internet where you can sit down and argue and arguing about these things is very popular unfortunately..but at the end of the day you will only attain two things, i) wasting of time, ii) feelings of dislike for your Muslim brothers. So again, learn what the Salaf believed with the intention to please Allaah and then focus on what benefits you. My 2 cents.

It's hard akhi cos I have 1 Deobandi friend who follows maturidi aqeedah, another friend who is brelvi and follows another aqeedah and then there's me who follows salafus saleh,

my brelvi friend refuses to pray behind me in jamaat cos he says my aqeedah is wrong, my deobandi friend refuses to pray behind my brelvi friend, and my brelvi friend refuses to pray behind my deobandi friend LOL :(

what a sad affair.
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aadil77
04-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by squiggle
It's hard akhi cos I have 1 Deobandi friend who follows maturidi aqeedah, another friend who is brelvi and follows another aqeedah and then there's me who follows salafus saleh,

my brelvi friend refuses to pray behind me in jamaat cos he says my aqeedah is wrong, my deobandi friend refuses to pray behind my brelvi friend, and my brelvi friend refuses to pray behind my deobandi friend LOL :(

what a sad affair.
What the hell, why not? Does he think you're non-muslim or something? Tell him to come on here and prove his brelvi aqeedah is correct

If you can't even pray with your muslim brother, then there's no point being friends with such a muslim.
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cat eyes
04-18-2010, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by squiggle
It's hard akhi cos I have 1 Deobandi friend who follows maturidi aqeedah, another friend who is brelvi and follows another aqeedah and then there's me who follows salafus saleh,

my brelvi friend refuses to pray behind me in jamaat cos he says my aqeedah is wrong, my deobandi friend refuses to pray behind my brelvi friend, and my brelvi friend refuses to pray behind my deobandi friend LOL :(

what a sad affair.
haha sad indeed
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Salahudeen
04-18-2010, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
What the hell, why not? Does he think you're non-muslim or something? Tell him to come on here and prove his brelvi aqeedah is correct
lol he says I reject verses of Qur'an pertaining to the messenger sallallahu 'alayhi wa salam being hadir nadir and that makes me non muslin. his exact words were

" Muahmmed ibn abdul wahab in 1 of his books says whoever believes that the messenger is hadir nadir is a kafir, this makes him non muslim and every 1 who believes the same as him because allah says in the quran "we made you a witness over them till the day of judgement, so they reject this verse, and that means the're kafir"

I was stunned, I asked him to provide me with verse number (still waiting) , then I will ask him according to who's interpretation? hmm I think I will have to discredit ahmed raza khan brelvi to make him wake up cos everything I say goes in 1 ear and out the other.

I will show him the bad stuff in ahmed raza khan's book. Does any 1 know what interpretation of Qur'an brelvis use? and who that interpretator is? like what time was he around?

then I will explain to him that, the Qur'an can only be interpretated in following ways

1. Using the Qur'an itself.
2. Hadiths.
3.Saying of sahabba.

^ I think that's correct lol.
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aadil77
04-18-2010, 10:09 PM
oh man these guys believe that rasulullah can see over the whole world using that verse of the quran

this is isn't in much detail but it'll help

the following article was published stating that the prophet’s spirit is omnipresent at all times (may allah bless him & give him peace). below is most of their article and their proofs. is what they say the truth?
it is the contention and the belief of the ahle sunnat wal jamaat that the holy prophet(sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is : (a). present & seeing at all times , (b). aware and witnessing the creation of allah , (c). able to be present in several places at the same time .
" 'o' nabi (communicator of the unseen) we have sent you as a witness." (s33 v45). 2). "then how shall it be, when we bring up a witness from each nation (of each prophet) and 'o' beloved messenger we will bring you as a witness and guardian against all those." (s4 v41)
observe that the holy prophet(sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is being called a witness to all the nations that allah has put upon this earth. therefore, the holy prophet(sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) must have been present before his earthly appearance and is still present after this earthly demise, otherwise he cannot be called upon as a witness in the true sense of the word. there are many other verses of the holy quran that call upon the holy prophet(sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) to be a witness. and a witness can only be someone who is haazir & naazir.
a technical point: the following quranic verses are often quoted to show that the holy prophet(sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) was not present and seeing before his earthly appearance : "and you('o' prophet) were not with them(present) when they cast their pens(to decide) which of them should be mary's guardian." (s3 v44)
"the prophet was not present when musa was called upon tur" (s28 v46) yes, the holy prophet(sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) was not present (physically speaking) at these .



The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the best and most perfect of creation, and the most beloved to Allaah and the most honoured by Him. But this does not mean that his human characteristics are to be denied, or that any of the duties of worship which are due only to Allaah should be directed to him. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a human being who suffered from sickness and real death the same as any other human being. Allaah said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, you (O Muhammad) will die, and verily, they (too) will die” [al-Zumar 39:30]

“And We granted not to any human being immortality before you (O Muhammad); then if you die, would they live forever?” [al-Anbiyaa’ 21:34]

The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) died and was buried in his grave, hence al-Siddeeq Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Whoever used to worship Muhammad, Muhammad has died, but whoever used to worship Allaah, Allaah is alive and will never die.”

The fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was a witness, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner, and that he will be a witness on the Day of Resurrection, does not mean that he is present among all nations, or that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will remain alive until the Day of Resurrection, or that he sees and witnesses whilst he is in his grave. Witnessing does not only mean seeing. Rather he will testify against the nations by means of what Allaah tells him, for he does not know the unseen. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… and If I had the knowledge of the Ghaib (Unseen), I should have secured for myself an abundance of wealth…”[al-A’raaf 7:188]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) does not have the ability to be present in numerous places; he is in only one place, which is his grave, and this is according to the consensus of the Muslims.


http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/6084
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Salahudeen
04-18-2010, 10:19 PM
it would be good if he gave the actual interpretation of the verses according to he salaf.
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-19-2010, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by squiggle
Akhi are those books in english? lol. Do you have a link to a bookshop with those boosk? :p
Yes, Lum3atil 3ittiqaad (The Sufficiency in Creed) w/ explanation by ibn Uthaymeen is translated. Check your local DarusSalam, it should be there.

Also Usool ul-Sunnah (Foundations of the Sunnah), is also translated.
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Muhammad
04-20-2010, 11:59 AM
Assalaamu Alaykum,

One of the huge mistakes that people do is failing to take into account all the evidences relating to a particular issue. One of the principles in understanding the Qur'an and Sunnah correctly is to gather all the related evidences, because parts of the Qur'an and Sunnah explain other parts. If we isolate one or two verses/hadeeth without considering the rest, we may end up misinterpreting them. This leads to another very important principle that when you have a verse of the Qur'an which can be interpreted in different ways, then you refer it to other verses that are very clear and not open to interpretation. That is how we understand verses that might not seem entirely clear.

Allaah (swt) says in the Qur'an (interpretation of the meaning):

It is He Who has sent down to you the Book (this Qur'an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. [Aal-'Imraan: 7]

So these people who seek to derive such meanings from one verse - let them also consider the explicit verses elsewhere together with relevant hadeeth.

Allaah (swt) says in the Qur'an (interpretation of the meaning):

...Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. [Al-Baqarah: 85]

Btw, there are some more details about what I said here: http://www.islamicboard.com/showthre...ing-the-Hadith
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Al-manar
04-21-2010, 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by squiggle
Does anyone know the beliefs of this group? I want to know more about them and how did they apply greek philosophy to Islam? and what groups exist today that use philosophy in interpretating qur'an. Also what is ta'wil or something like that, I know it means to seek the hidden meaning behind a verse. but the thing that confuses me is, if a verse has a hidden meaning how do people come to agreement about it's meaning?

2 people could say it means different things.
you raised 2 important points

regarding mutazela ... the fact that the posts here represents those brothers who never read their work by themselves but instead read the work of their opponents(which I read too),I wouldn't argue with them

they need to read the works of such school esp their huge reference (16 volumes) Almoghny fi abwaab al-adl waltawheed (not available in English yet) by Qadi Abd al-Jabba......

not only the brothers here lack knowledge in the matter but also ,I don't like to argue with those who call their muslims brothers who follow (ashaari maturidi ) to be following the worst sects etc.....
away from Shia and sufi I won't call any sunni group whether Salafi, ashari,mutazeli a sect ...
those are not different sects but rather different understandings.. which could be valid ...

the second question regarding ta'wil ...well mutazeli used it for some reasons but they I think exaggerated in using such technique and the school of Ahmed ibn Hanbal (God bless his soul) exaggerated too when they refused using it almost completely....... and that is where came the Ashari school ..they tried to be in between the two both extreme (Salafi vs Mutazeli) and they used it in moderate way.....

by the way I would never call myself Mutazeli,ashaari,salafi etc.....
I'm just a muslim who believe that the accuracy of understanding,tafsir etc is not exclusive to a specific school

I like some Mutazeli idea in the issue of free will and predestination ..and like some Ashaari views in ta'wil.. but still believe that the salafi non - ta'wil could be valid (without certainity)...

and Allah knows best


for further information ,just PM me....

peace
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-21-2010, 03:44 PM
regarding mutazela ... the fact that the posts here represents those brothers who never read their work by themselves but instead read the work of their opponents(which I read too),I wouldn't argue with them
Why even bother reading kufr ideology?

not only the brothers here lack knowledge in the matter but also ,I don't like to argue with those who call their muslims brothers who follow (ashaari maturidi ) to be following the worst sects etc.....
away from Shia and sufi I won't call any sunni group whether Salafi, ashari,mutazeli a sect ...
those are not different sects but rather different understandings.. which could be valid ...
First off, the scholars do this, not just any old brother. al Mu3tazilah is not even a Sunni group. Their creed is KUFR. And the scholars have 'ijmaa upon this.

the second question regarding ta'wil ...well mutazeli used it for some reasons but they I think exaggerated in using such technique and the school of Ahmed ibn Hanbal (God bless his soul) exaggerated too when they refused using it almost completely....... and that is where came the Ashari school ..they tried to be in between the two both extreme (Salafi vs Mutazeli) and they used it in moderate way.....
Imam Ahmad didn't exaggerate anything. He is Imam a'Sunnah and his refutation of the mu3tazilah saved Islam. And the ummah agrees upon this. Why would someone even defend this creed?

I like some Mutazeli idea in the issue of free will and predestination ..and like some Ashaari views in ta'wil.. but still believe that the salafi non - ta'wil could be valid (without certainity)...
Really? Are you aware that the mu3tazili aqeedah concerning al qadaa wal qadar is that of the jabariyyah? You do know they deny Allah's qadaa and say actions is in the hands of man without Allah's will?

May Allah guide our affairs and keep us upon sound creed
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Al-manar
04-21-2010, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
Why even bother reading kufr ideology?
Have you seen ,all ?

your post have endorsed every word I wrote... not only you accuse your fellow sunni muslims of blasphemy but you don,t even bother reading the material of those you wish to accuse !!!!!!

have you read all their material in its context? you never did ....
what gets things worse is that not only you accuse them of blasphemy beforereading their material but also you claim that the sunni scholars condemned Mutazeli as kafir and not Bedaa .....
that is simply false....

Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
Imam Ahmad didn't exaggerate anything.
yes ,He did and that is why his mazhab has never been popular among muslims...


Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
He is Imam a'Sunnah
I have so much respect for him but that doesn-t mean we make the tiltle (Imam a'Sunnah) exclusive for him....

Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
his refutation of the mu3tazilah saved Islam.
it is not his refutation(if he really succeeded so all the way) that demolished the Mutazelah influence.... it was the political situation therin ......
history tells ... a school would succeed if it has support by the politic powers that rules..

Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
And the ummah agrees upon this.
that is again simply false ....


Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
Really? Are you aware that the mu3tazili aqeedah concerning al qadaa wal qadar is that of the jabariyyah?
I'm afraid that your last statement would bring our discussion to an end for the lack of information regarding the mu3tazili aqeedah...

you have reversed the truth...mu3tazili aqeedah was an attack against jabariyyah... and that is a basic lesson(which you missed) that any reader would understand from their work....

My advice to you ..don,t recklessley use the word Kafir against your muslim brothers (influenced by reading some material of some radical salafi scholars) .....

don't accuse someone before you read well its work and in context...

don't post till you verify the accuracy of what you post..

peace
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-21-2010, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Al-manar
Have you seen ,all ?

your post have endorsed every word I wrote... not only you accuse your fellow sunni muslims of blasphemy but you don,t even bother reading the material of those you wish to accuse !!!!!!

have you read all their material in its context? you never did ....
what gets things worse is that not only you accuse them of blasphemy beforereading their material but also you claim that the sunni scholars condemned Mutazeli as kafir and not Bedaa .....
that is simply false....



yes ,He did and that is why his mazhab has never been popular among muslims...




I have so much respect for him but that doesn-t mean we make the tiltle (Imam a'Sunnah) exclusive for him....



it is not his refutation(if he really succeeded so all the way) that demolished the Mutazelah influence.... it was the political situation therin ......
history tells ... a school would succeed if it has support by the politic powers that rules..



that is again simply false ....




I'm afraid that your last statement would bring our discussion to an end for the lack of information regarding the mu3tazili aqeedah...

you have reversed the truth...mu3tazili aqeedah was an attack against jabariyyah... and that is a basic lesson(which you missed) that any reader would understand from their work....

My advice to you ..don,t recklessley use the word Kafir against your muslim brothers (influenced by reading some material of some radical salafi scholars) .....

don't accuse someone before you read well its work and in context...

don't post till you verify the accuracy of what you post..

peace
I wont bother responding to this filth that you have posted but I noticed you failed to respond to one of my questions of which I asked...

You do know they deny Allah's qadaa and say actions is in the hands of man without Allah's will?
So I ask you, O brother in Islam, do you believe this? Because this is one of the many disgusting beliefs of the mu3tazilah. Furthermore, I haven't labeled them as kafirs, Imam Ahmad did, hence he said all of their heads (scholars, callers) are kuffar. So please tell us YOUR beliefs.
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Al-manar
04-22-2010, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
I wont bother responding to this filth that you have posted
Ahmed ... losing temper , hurling insults while arguing would weaken your position even with those who sympathize your ideas ....


Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
I haven't labeled them as kafirs
yes ,you did .


Originally Posted by AhmadibnPhilip
Imam Ahmad did, hence he said all of their heads (scholars, callers) are kuffar. ...
May Allah forgive him , that was a mistake.

and may Allah forgive those(the rulers as no mutazeli scholar ever participated) who beat him ,thinking by doing that they protected Islamic monothiesm( details later)..

and may Allah forgive the Literalists ( followers of the school of Ibn Hanbal) for the unique violence they comitted against other schools ( Shafi,Ashari and others)...

and hope the history has taught muslims that power comes through unity , tolerating the other views...


well.....

Do you know what motivated The mutazelah to believe that the Quran is created?

Do you know what motivated The mutazelah to believe that man unlike the puppets,creates his own actions and hence responsible totally for it?


Do you know what motivated them to believe that Allah can't be seen neither in the world nor the hearafter?

Do you know why they denied the existence of attributes distinct from Divine essence.?


one may argue that they erred.... but I think their noble intention ,purpose and jealousity for Islam should be unquestionable....

some elaborations?

I intend that through Pm the brother who started the thread ,as I'm going to quote from the heart of their work, not only that but also viewing how the school of Ibn hanbal tried to refute them and finally showing their counter argument and how some of their arguments should stands firm,still .


A question for the brothers (moderators) would I post that in the thread or not ?

If yes, then you helped those who are curious to know more about the topic...

if no, then thank you for saving my mental energy putting the Arabic ideas in English :statisfie.....

May Allah bless us all with the spirit of affection,tolerance,unity...

Ameen....
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أبو سليمان عمر
04-23-2010, 12:52 PM
Al-manar
Do you know what motivated The mutazelah......... ?
doesnt really matter what it is that motivated them what matters is what they say they come up with somthing then try to find proof to back them up when ahul asunnah wa jamma look at what the quran and sunnah say then follow
You question is just as saying do u know what motivated the rafidah to curse the companions and beat there self or the sufis to dance like crazy or the Christians to believe the Jesus is God , son. or what ever doesnt matter what it is that motivated them they are all wrong and upon misguidance that is what matters
But to answer your question yes i think i know why and again they use the quran and sunnah to get there agenda and it should be other way around
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-23-2010, 02:27 PM
May Allah forgive him , that was a mistake.
Mistake? Sorry, but the scholars of Imam Ahmad's time ALSO agreed with him, you're acting as if Imam Ahmad was alone in this.


Do you know what motivated The mutazelah to believe that the Quran is created?

Do you know what motivated The mutazelah to believe that man unlike the puppets,creates his own actions and hence responsible totally for it?


Do you know what motivated them to believe that Allah can't be seen neither in the world nor the hearafter?

Do you know why they denied the existence of attributes distinct from Divine essence.?
Thank you for exposing the beliefs of the mu3tazilah. Any sane Muslim knows all of this is kufr and that's why we as Muslims reject the mu3tazilah and their sick beliefs.


one may argue that they erred.... but I think their noble intention ,purpose and jealousity for Islam should be unquestionable....
The same can be said about the rawfida, unless you wanna start justifying their sick beliefs as well, then this point of yours is useless because every religion has a "noble intention".

Whats sad is that you're justifying their sick beliefs and you're standing by it. You act as if Imam Ahmad was the only one to refute them. If you didn't notice, all the scholars, whether Hanafi, Shafi3ee, Maliki, or Hanbali rejected their creed. And the ummah rejects their ideology as well. So don't act as if this is a hanbali thing.

I laughed reading your post saying how the hanbali madhab isn't very liked so not many ppl followed it then you speak about political regimes backing groups and thats how they succeed. My question to you concerning that is, how do you think the other madhaahib like the Hanafi madhab became dominant? You think people simply chose it? Of course it, it was because the political background of the khilaafah enforced it throughout many parts of the Muslim world. So don't use that lame argument against the Hanaabilah. It is as Abdullah ibn Umar said, "the truth is not known by people rather know the truth and you shall know its people." Truth isn't found in numbers.

I'm interested to know what you believe. Based on everything you've written, do you believe that al qadaa wal qadar does not exist? Do you also believe the Quran is created? And do you reject the names and attributes of Allah?

I smell an ibaadi, wallaahu'3lam
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Zafran
04-23-2010, 03:04 PM
Salaam

Only a matter of time before this thread Gets closed.

peace
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