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EllyDicious
04-20-2010, 04:15 PM
- I'd be curious to know what Muslims think it would be the best age/time to get married

- Should there be any age difference between partners? Does it matter to you, personally?
Also, does the Q'uran say anything about this?

- Would you turn someone down just because of their age?

- Is it true that Muhammad married a 9 year old girl?

- Is it prohibited for Muslim men to get married to underage girls or the other way around?
Reply

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tigerkhan
04-21-2010, 08:13 AM
ASALAMKUM
Better u should ask these questions to some AALIM or MUFTI to got clear answers...
JZK
Reply

omar ibrahim
04-21-2010, 11:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
- I'd be curious to know what Muslims think it would be the best age/time to get married

- Should there be any age difference between partners? Does it matter to you, personally?
First of all,there is no specific age in islam,once they can have children wich called in arabic bloog they can get married,and its up to you when do you want to get married.Secondly i prefer to get married at the age of 21 or 20,it depends to your situation ^^

Also, does the Q'uran say anything about this?

i am not sure but what i know generally there is no specific age for marriage,as i told you once they can have children and you know what i mean.

- Would you turn someone down just because of their age?
prophet mohammed peace and blessing be upon him married kadijah the first woman when he was i think 25 while she was about 45,and he did stay with her alone until she died.For me i might turn someone because of the age it depends how many years between my future wife and i.

- Is it true that Muhammad married a 9 year old girl?
please do kindly watch this vidio to understand more about this marriage ^^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt7vS7kxc50
- Is it prohibited for Muslim men to get married to underage girls or the other way around?
^^ do you mean under 18,your question has been answerd already but they both male and female have rights to reject.
Reply

EllyDicious
04-21-2010, 01:28 PM
First off, I wanted your personal views. I don't need to ask aalim or mufti .
Second, I don't know what the terms in bold mean.
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omar ibrahim
04-21-2010, 02:48 PM
I told you my opinion ^^

why are you angry?

i would like to marry at the age of 20 or 21,sounds good?^^
Reply

EllyDicious
04-21-2010, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by omar ibrahim
I told you my opinion ^^

why are you angry?

i would like to marry at the age of 20 or 21,sounds good?^^
sorry I wasn't angry. But you have a terrible way of quoting the message. lol. I thought you had just quoted my message and I didn't read the answer inside my quoted message lol.
let me take a look at them now.
Reply

omar ibrahim
04-21-2010, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
sorry I wasn't angry. But you have a terrible way of quoting the message. lol. I thought you had just quoted my message and I didn't read the answer inside my quoted message lol.
let me take a look at them now.
lool,thats fine,i will try to fix my way of quoting in threads ^^
Reply

EllyDicious
04-21-2010, 03:40 PM
@omar : the video would talk about that Aisha was young enough to get married, to have babies and that she should've grown older and give consent about this marriage.
also, Muhammad [pbuh] died when she was a young lady ... but there was given no age [in numbers] for the cases I just mentioned.
So still, i'm questioning what age she gave the consent to get married to Muhammad [pbuh]...
Reply

omar ibrahim
04-21-2010, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
@omar : the video would talk about that Aisha was young enough to get married, to have babies and that she should've grown older and give consent about this marriage.
also, Muhammad [pbuh] died when she was a young lady ... but there was given no age [in numbers] for the cases I just mentioned.
So still, i'm questioning what age she gave the consent to get married to Muhammad [pbuh]...
she married him completely at the age of 9 ^^.However in hot countries people grow up much faster.
Reply

جوري
04-21-2010, 04:06 PM
from 1884-1914 in the west the age of consent in some places was as young as 7

American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen,
http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm

if you wish to read more about the prophet's marriages
you may do so here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?5337

here is what the Jews have to say:

What is the minimum age of marriage according to Jewish law?
by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

Our Sages state1 that "it is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry.'" It is forbidden for one to marry off his daughter until she is an adult and says 'this is the one I want to marry'!
In ancient (and not so ancient) times however, marriage was often-times celebrated at a rather young age. Although we do not follow this dictum, technically speaking, a girl may be betrothed the moment she is born, and married at the age of three.2 A boy may betroth and marry at the age of thirteen.3

Add a comment

Footnotes

  • 1. Talmud Kiddushin 41a.
  • 2. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 37:1.
  • 3. Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 43:1.



you search the bible and you'll find that David took a concubine on his death bed:

Abishag Was a young virgin from the town of Shunem, North of Jezreel and Mount Gilboa, in the territory of Issachar. (Jos 19:17-23) She was "beautiful in the extreme" and was chosen by David's servants to become the nurse and companion of the king during his final days.
see 1Ki 1:1-4.
David was now about 70 years of age (2Sa 5:4, 5), and as a result of debilitation he had little body heat. Abishag waited on him during the day, doubtless brightening the surroundings with her youthful freshness and beauty, and at night she "lay in the king's bosom"
to give him warmth, but "the king himself had no intercourse with her." Nevertheless, the attitude later manifested by Solomon regarding her indicates that Abishag was viewed as being in the position of wife or concubine of David. As such, by a rule in the ancient East, she would become the property of David's heir at the time of his death


so is your query simply directed at Muslims? If so, then Islam asks that we marry when certain milestones are met.
1- financial ability
2- physical ability
3- psychological ability to handle a marriage!

pls make use of our search feature since this particular topic crops up almost daily and has been addressed more than amply!

all the best
Reply

cat eyes
04-21-2010, 04:09 PM
the age of aisha is not known according to historical events, these events contradict the hadith so her age is not known. also keep in mind we are talking about 1400years ago you cannot compare the young ladies of that age to the kids of today. it would be better for you if you did ask a mufti because on a forum you will just get confused and this is a very controversial topic
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omar ibrahim
04-21-2010, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
the age of aisha is not known according to historical events, these events contradict the hadith so her age is not known. also keep in mind we are talking about 1400years ago you cannot compare the young ladies of that age to the kids of today. it would be better for you if you did ask a mufti because on a forum you will just get confused and this is a very controversial topic
you might be right sister,maybe the age of the engagement is not known.Allah knows best ^^.
Reply

Cabdullahi
04-21-2010, 04:29 PM
genghis khan married at 9 years of age

king edward 1st married at 15

the 9 year old of that time was completely different to the 9 year old of today...so what's the fuss?
Reply

EllyDicious
04-21-2010, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullahii

the 9 year old of that time was completely different to the 9 year old of today...so what's the fuss?
It wasn't that different given that Muhammad didn't go to live with her right away. They didn't have sexual intercourse since the beginning of their marriage. Muhammad would still play with toys and do things a parent does with the child.
So at the beginning he was behaving as a parent rather than a partner.

Which shows, 9 year olds at that time weren't that different from the 9 y.olds of today.
Reply

Cabdullahi
04-21-2010, 04:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
It wasn't that different given that Muhammad didn't go to live with her right away. They didn't have sexual intercourse since the beginning of their marriage. Muhammad would still play with toys and do things a parent does with the child.
So at the beginning he was behaving as a parent rather than a partner.

Which shows, 9 year olds at that time weren't that different from the 9 y.olds of today.
Bring forth your proof madame
Reply

جوري
04-21-2010, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullahii
genghis khan married at 9 years of age

king edward 1st married at 15

the 9 year old of that time was completely different to the 9 year old of today...so what's the fuss?
I wouldn't bother answering anymore, she doesn't take the time to read, but always has something snide and ill-fitting to say!

:w:
Reply

omar ibrahim
04-21-2010, 05:08 PM
All of you be sure that we dont know,when did the prophet start having deepen relationship with her.
Reply

cat eyes
04-21-2010, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
It wasn't that different given that Muhammad didn't go to live with her right away. They didn't have sexual intercourse since the beginning of their marriage. Muhammad would still play with toys and do things a parent does with the child.
So at the beginning he was behaving as a parent rather than a partner.

Which shows, 9 year olds at that time weren't that different from the 9 y.olds of today.
yes a woman has to wait until she reaches the age of puberty once a girl reaches puberty then it means shes no longer a child but a woman. 9year olds today dont reach puberty only very few this shows that they were different so as i said her age is not known, there is alot of things which contradict that hadith which shows that its weak and muslims cant simply rely on it 100percent. so what we do is we go to the holy Quran and a girl clearly has to reach puberty for intercourse. every country has there own age limit also.
Reply

جوري
04-21-2010, 05:28 PM
puberty is a catch all term that denotes a period of three years where both biological and physiological changes take place that lead up to a certain point in females that change is menarche, and menarche according to the American pediatric association occurs anywhere between (9-16) anything below that is precocious and needs to be investigated, anything above that as well needs to be investigated.. we can't change physiology around to suit new age definition and our own whims it has to be evidence based science.. now just because someone has reached puberty doesn't mean they are ready for marriage, I have already listed the conditions for marriage above.

yes women married younger their reproductive years were also cut short, people didn't spend all their life in school and women died in childbirth and children died in childhood.

the laws now themselves differ from country to country and aren't a one size fits all what is considered statutory rape in England is age of consent in spain.
Reply

جوري
04-21-2010, 05:31 PM
Age of Menarche
Menarche usually occurs about two years after your breasts develop (thelarche) and between 4 and 6 months after the growth of your pubic and underarm hair. The age of menarche in most North American women is around 12 or 13, though your first period can come anytime between 9 and 16, depending upon your height, weight, and cultural background. Early menarche is occurring more and more - girls as young as 8 have been known to get their periods. This is referred to as premature menarche. Girls who haven't gotten their period by the age of 16 are described as experiencing primary amenorrhea. Sometimes external factors or complications may prevent your period from arriving when it should.

http://www.epigee.org/menstruation/menarche.html
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
04-22-2010, 02:30 AM
can this thread just be trashed already. its useless as these things have been discussed over and over (and over) again... its getting stale. if you want answers, just plug it in the search option.
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S_87
04-22-2010, 10:16 AM
I'd be curious to know what Muslims think it would be the best age/time to get married
whenever the person is ready

- Should there be any age difference between partners? Does it matter to you, personally?
again it depends on each individual and their preference



- Is it true that Muhammad married a 9 year old girl?
yes

- Is it prohibited for Muslim men to get married to underage girls or the other way around?
what do u consider 'underage'

It wasn't that different given that Muhammad didn't go to live with her right away. They didn't have sexual intercourse since the beginning of their marriage. Muhammad would still play with toys and do things a parent does with the child.
So at the beginning he was behaving as a parent rather than a partner.

Which shows, 9 year olds at that time weren't that different from the 9 y.olds of today.
wrong. if you check on your ancestors youll probably see that they were married at an age that youd still consider 'child like'....around 10? so whats your point? you know better because............?


oh btw, i still play with toys and im no kid ;)
Reply

EllyDicious
04-22-2010, 10:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani

what do u consider 'underage'
Don't you guys have a legal age when you are considered 'mature'?
For example, here in Albania, people are not allowed to get married under 18. [except in special cases when the girl is pregnant].


wrong. if you check on your ancestors youll probably see that they were married at an age that youd still consider 'child like'....around 10?
I've never heard anyone getting married around 10. The only story is that of Muhammad's.
I've heard people getting married at 16 and/or above. Anyway, that doesn't really matter .
Though you can't deny that being 10 means you're still a child and doesn't matter if you and I think the opposite.

oh btw, i still play with toys and im no kid ;)
We all are kids inside and sometimes we love being/acting like kids ...but we can't call ourselves kids because we've grown older and we have other more important things in life than just acting like kids.
But you can't compare yourself with a 10 year old , even if you play with toys.
A 10 year old [whether he/she with toys or not] is still a kid .... even if they get married ... they are and will be considered kids. It's something you can't deny.
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aadil77
04-22-2010, 10:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
Don't you guys have a legal age when you are considered 'mature'?
For example, here in Albania, people are not allowed to get married under 18. [except in special cases when the girl is pregnant].

Not everyone matures at the same age so you can put a limit on it

I've never heard anyone getting married around 10. The only story is that of Muhammad's.
I've heard people getting married at 16 and/or above. Anyway, that doesn't really matter .
Though you can't deny that being 10 means you're still a child and doesn't matter if you and I think the opposite.

you've never heard of 10/11 year olds getting girls pregnant?
.................................................. ......
Reply

omar ibrahim
04-22-2010, 12:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
Don't you guys have a legal age when you are considered 'mature'?there is no specific age in islam itself it depends to the person.

For example, here in Albania, people are not allowed to get married under 18. [except in special cases when the girl is pregnant].

good to know that ^^



I've never heard anyone getting married around 10. The only story is that of Muhammad's.
I've heard people getting married at 16 and/or above. Anyway, that doesn't really matter .
Though you can't deny that being 10 means you're still a child and doesn't matter if you and I think the opposite.


its something wich is in tradition to get married in early age even today you see some men married at the age of 17 and girls at the age of 14 but its not common,and other thing you cant compare a marriage that took place 1400 years ago.i am talking about saudi arabia

We all are kids inside and sometimes we love being/acting like kids ...but we can't call ourselves kids because we've grown older and we have other more important things in life than just acting like kids.

I agree ^^


But you can't compare yourself with a 10 year old , even if you play with toys.
A 10 year old [whether he/she with toys or not] is still a kid .... even if they get married ... they are and will be considered kids. It's something you can't deny.
they will be considered as kids in your law and you can not deny it but in islamic low there is no specific age as i told you again and again ^^ once a person has an ability to have children he or she is no longer a kid

i will explain the sings of the age of bloog where a person is no longer a kid

for a woman
when the chest is grow and the voice start to change when the hair grow in some places i forgot the rest ^^

for a man

when the voice changes when the hair grow in some places...etc
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Beardo
04-22-2010, 01:14 PM
Well, in America, you can get married before 18 if you have parental permission. I don't know why people overlook that and say "Oh well, they promote pre-marital relations and won't let them marry young." That's a false statement. Alhamdulillah, Americans have a lot of rights. :)
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EllyDicious
04-22-2010, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
you've never heard of 10/11 year olds getting girls pregnant?.
Of course I've heard.
But I said I've never heard of 10 year olds getting married. So I was referring to marriage and not pregnancy and these are not related to each other.[at least outside Islam].
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cat eyes
04-22-2010, 04:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
Of course I've heard.
But I said I've never heard of 10 year olds getting married. So I was referring to marriage and not pregnancy and these are not related to each other.[at least outside Islam].
if a 10 year old reaches puberty shes a child no longer. mentally she might be a child but her body is going through changes. sister my advice to you is look at the age limits on every country not only your own. p.s i still love toys too:p
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EllyDicious
04-22-2010, 07:09 PM
lololololol LOVELY CAT!!!! is it you or your cat ? :p

how cute!
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tango92
04-22-2010, 07:18 PM
if kids below puberty have sexual intercourse theyre pretty much traumatized and scarred for life. but in the case of Aisha, she was a leader of armies after the prophet and never once spoke a word against him even after his death. the stories of their marriage are also very loving. this doesnt sound like a person who was married before being ready.
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S_87
04-23-2010, 10:57 AM
Don't you guys have a legal age when you are considered 'mature'?
For example, here in Albania, people are not allowed to get married under 18. [except in special cases when the girl is pregnant].
so how did the girl get pregnant? and there is no sex without marriage.
in the UK girls have having kids as young as 12, sure they cant get married but they are still sexually active. so is 18 when girls in albania mature? for real?

I've never heard anyone getting married around 10. The only story is that of Muhammad's.
I've heard people getting married at 16 and/or above. Anyway, that doesn't really matter .
Though you can't deny that being 10 means you're still a child and doesn't matter if you and I think the opposite
oh well my own gran got married at 13 which was a pretty average age. so yeh i can believe...plus if you check in rural villages in asia/africa youll see the age for marriage is MUCH younger than 16.


We all are kids inside and sometimes we love being/acting like kids ...but we can't call ourselves kids because we've grown older and we have other more important things in life than just acting like kids.
But you can't compare yourself with a 10 year old , even if you play with toys.
A 10 year old [whether he/she with toys or not] is still a kid .... even if they get married ... they are and will be considered kids. It's something you can't deny.
1400 years ago i dont know what a 10 year old was like and neither did you. did you know aisha radhiallahu anha was helping in battles? at what age? an age girls today could not do it. do you know her history? did you know that she is the one that Allah defended in the Quran? what age was she then? an age most girls wouldnt be married?did you know she was a great scholar of islam having lost her husband-her teacher at 18? how many 18 year olds can say that for today?
so yes she was young but whats your point exactly? who are YOU to judge age

Of course I've heard.
But I said I've never heard of 10 year olds getting married. So I was referring to marriage and not pregnancy and these are not related to each other.[at least outside Islam].
EXACTLY. youre talking outsdie islam we are talking within. marriage is a honourable and noble thing, a thing that protects the woman when she DOES get pregnant and doesnt leave her as a single mother which if you looked in the west 99.9% of those PREGNANT (so they were mature enough to have sex right??) are single mothers because the fathers bailed. so they are mature enough to have kids and raise them alone but not mature enough to have a husband to look after and share the responsibility? i love that logic
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EllyDicious
04-23-2010, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
so how did the girl get pregnant? and there is no sex without marriage.
in the UK girls have having kids as young as 12, sure they cant get married but they are still sexually active. so is 18 when girls in albania mature? for real?
No. I didn't say they are biologically mature. I meant they are legally mature. And before being legally mature, you are not allowed to get married, over there.


oh well my own gran got married at 13 which was a pretty average age. so yeh i can believe...plus if you check in rural villages in asia/africa youll see the age for marriage is MUCH younger than 16.
That's the way it used to be in ALbania many years ago. That's because of the mentality that was at that time. Women weren't allowed to go to school, but they had to raise kids and stay home.


1400 years ago i dont know what a 10 year old was like and neither did you. did you know aisha radhiallahu anha was helping in battles? at what age? an age girls today could not do it. do you know her history? did you know that she is the one that Allah defended in the Quran? what age was she then? an age most girls wouldnt be married?did you know she was a great scholar of islam having lost her husband-her teacher at 18? how many 18 year olds can say that for today?
so yes she was young but whats your point exactly? who are YOU to judge age
I'm not judging age, I was asking questions...age related to know more about the way these things work for Islam.
And just because there was a girl called Aisha who was very young and helping in battles, doesn't exclude the fact that at her age kids nowadays don't do even the quarter of what she did at that time.
She was an exception. I'm talking about general things.

EXACTLY. youre talking outsdie islam we are talking within. marriage is a honourable and noble thing, a thing that protects the woman when she DOES get pregnant and doesnt leave her as a single mother which if you looked in the west 99.9% of those PREGNANT (so they were mature enough to have sex right??) are single mothers because the fathers bailed. so they are mature enough to have kids and raise them alone but not mature enough to have a husband to look after and share the responsibility? i love that logic
What are you talking about ? I didn't say they are not mature enough to have a husband. Actually, I'd say the other thing. A 15 year old girl can be mature enough to have husband but not mature enough to have kids. [I'm talking in general]. Because she's a kid herself. So it's strange that a kid is raising a kid.

But I think to each their own.
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جوري
04-23-2010, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
No. I didn't say they are biologically mature. I meant they are legally mature. And before being legally mature, you are not allowed to get married, over there.
what is legal by your standards if there is in fact no consensus on such an issue.. what is legal in Spain is statutory rape in Italy.. should we induct the 'dicisous' code of legality for this thread to make better sense? funny stuff

That's the way it used to be in ALbania many years ago. That's because of the mentality that was at that time. Women weren't allowed to go to school, but they had to raise kids and stay home.
what mentality is that? many years ago you were under atheist rule!


I'm not judging age, I was asking questions...age related to know more about the way these things work for Islam.
and that has been amply answered by the first post back. The criteria for marriage in Islam
is financial, biological and psychological maturity.. does it pay repeating?

And just because there was a girl called Aisha who was very young and helping in battles, doesn't exclude the fact that at her age kids nowadays don't do even the quarter of what she did at that time.
She was an exception. I'm talking about general things.
and generally I think the topic has been beaten to death, I am not sure where you keep finding morsels on the bones to chew on some more!

What are you talking about ? I didn't say they are not mature enough to have a husband. Actually, I'd say the other thing. A 15 year old girl can be mature enough to have husband but not mature enough to have kids. [I'm talking in general]. Because she's a kid herself. So it's strange that a kid is raising a kid.
If you are mature enough to screw around then you should be mature enough to handle the responsibilities that come with it. That is why Marriage is lawful and fooling around is not.. surely when you set the bar so low that everyone can have you for free no one is going to care if you end up knocked up at 15 kid or not!
But I think to each their own.
Indeed and you are certainly a class all your own!
Reply

GuCcI
04-23-2010, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
It wasn't that different given that Muhammad didn't go to live with her right away. They didn't have sexual intercourse since the beginning of their marriage. Muhammad would still play with toys and do things a parent does with the child.
So at the beginning he was behaving as a parent rather than a partner.

Which shows, 9 year olds at that time weren't that different from the 9 y.olds of today.
That is one huge leap you made. It does not show that. What it shows is that he was caring, devoted, and loving to make her feel safe and secure, to create a bond between them before proceeding to physical intimacy.
Her level of maturity and emotional and intellectual growth shows that 9 yr olds are very different from then and today. 9 year olds back then were taking care of their families and households. 9 year olds today still can barely make their own beds.
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EllyDicious
04-23-2010, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
what mentality is that? many years ago you were under atheist rule!
It's not related to the fact that we were under atheist rule. That's the way it used to work for families at that time. Whether you believe it or not.

and generally I think the topic has been beaten to death, I am not sure where you keep finding morsels on the bones to chew on some more!
If you think this thread has been answered, you're free to never come back and post again. I will keep on discussing whether you like it or not.


If you are mature enough to screw around then you should be mature enough to handle the responsibilities that come with it.
.
Those who actually screw around are not able to understand the consequences and responsibilities that come with it.
If they were mature enough, they wouldn't screw around, at all.[/QUOTE]
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جوري
04-23-2010, 04:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
It's not related to the fact that we were under atheist rule. That's the way it used to work for families at that time. Whether you believe it or not.
Whatever it is related to, is inconsequential in the scheme of things

If you think this thread has been answered, you're free to never come back and post again. I will keep on discussing whether you like it or not.
I too am free to point out your repeated short comings, and your inability to comprehend the written word, if for nothing else, but pure entertainment!


.
Those who actually screw around are not able to understand the consequences and responsibilities that come with it.
If they were mature enough, they wouldn't screw around, at all
Why don't you instate a law sterilizing all those you deem young in your neck of the wood? I think that would be a good start instead of bugging the crap out of the rest of us with your insta. made morality?

all the best
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EllyDicious
04-23-2010, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Whatever it is related to, is inconsequential in the scheme of things
If you think so, I'll leave you with that.
Don't really have much time to waste.

I too am free to point out your repeated short comings, and your inability to comprehend the written word, if for nothing else, but pure entertainment!
I'm glad to be effective for good. ;)


Why don't you instate a law sterilizing all those you deem young in your neck of the wood? I think that would be a good start instead of bugging the crap out of the rest of us with your insta. made morality?
Did I bug you?
I'm glad to be effective for bad ;)

Now, I think It's time to ignore you.
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Asiyah3
04-23-2010, 05:24 PM
Edit:

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I wouldn't bother answering anymore, she doesn't take the time to read, but always has something snide and ill-fitting to say!

:w:
:wa::
Advice highly appreciated. Jazakiallah.
Reply

جوري
04-23-2010, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by EllyDicious
If you think so, I'll leave you with that.
Don't really have much time to waste.
Yet here you are wasting everyone's time and yours on repeated questions and fatuous assertions..

I'm glad to be effective for good. ;)
Are you effective? mildly amusing would be a more adequate description..

Did I bug you?
I'm glad to be effective for bad ;)
You tell yourself whatever you need to foster yourself esteem!

Now, I think It's time to ignore you.
Yeah, you do that!

all the best
Reply

جوري
04-23-2010, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by _muslim_
Edit:


:wa::
Advice highly appreciated. Jazakiallah.

My pleasure let me put the sign about her stench up so everyone can evacuate!


Reply

- Qatada -
04-23-2010, 07:57 PM
Asalaam alaikum warahmatulah Wabarakatuh


This ayah/verse is used by anti-islamic people to say that sexual intercourse is permitted with children.

They quote the part of the verse;

..and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months.. [Quran Talaq 65:4]


Marriage Relations with 'Children'?

In Islam, a marriage contract can be agreed by parents for their children. So two parents may make a marriage contract that their children will be each others partners when they are mature for the rights of marriage.

Why is this type of marriage contract usually done?
In most cases it is done to cement relations between two families, or to agree to marriage early so they have an opportunity for marriage with a certain family before someone else proposes. This was done by Kings in the past to secure relations between two kingdoms.

Even though this is recognised in Islam, when the children become mature - they have the choice of annulling/cancelling the marriage if they wish to do so. This then refutes the concept of forcing them into marriage if they don't wish to do so.




Aisha's Marriage



Bukhari - Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

This hadith proves the above to be the case, where the marriage contract may take place at an earlier age and the consumation [sexual intercourse] may take place when the person is mature for it.

Prophet Muhammad's marriage to Aisha was one of the greatest blessings upon this Ummah [muslim nation] because due to her, we learned so much about the personal life of the Messenger. She is the 4th highest narrator of Ahadith [Prophetic sayings]. She had the mind of a scholar and due to this marriage we know the much about the life of the Messenger at home. And this was a divinely inspired Marriage.




Intimate Relations


The concept of maturity (balaghah) is different to how people percieve it today.


People mature at different levels, depending on where they live, and also their biological makeup.

In countries near the equator, girls mature into women a few years quicker than girls in colder nations. I.e. a girl may have physically developed into a woman by the age of 10 in the middle east, whereas this may occur at 13 for a young woman in Europe.


HerWord.com says:

There was a study conducted showing that girls who live in countries close to the equator started their menstruation earlier.

(HerWord.com,
http://www.herword.com/healthdesk/ot...s10.28.03.html)



The book Women and Health Psychology says:

Many factors have been reported to affect age at menarche and/or the regularity of menstruation—[such as] climate, altitude, race, height, weight, hereditary, stress/psychological factors, light, and nutrition.

(Women and Health Psychology,
Women and Health Psychology ... - Google Book Search)


This phenomenon is not limited to menarche [menstruation periods], but also applies to the whole of puberty. In the book Women: An Historical, Gynecological, and Anthropological Compendium, we read:

The average temperature of the country or province is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty.


(Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels; Woman: An Historical,
Gynecological, and Anthropological Compendium, Volume I, Lord & Bransby,
1988, p.563;

Woman. An historical, gynaecological and anthropological compendium. Volume 3 only by PLOSS, Herman Heinrich, BARTELS, Max & BARTELS, Paul Find or Buy Book Now!)





In Islam, for a girl to have menstruation is not enough, but she should be mature physically, mentally and emotionally for marriage.
Mufti Maulana Husain Kadodia explained:

In reality, puberty has two usages. The first usage is with regards to physical development, whereas the second usage is with regards to menses.

For (sexual) intercourse, developmental puberty (balagha) is a precondition.* Whereas for other rulings—such as being ordered to pray—the menses usage applies.

(Maulana Mufti Husain Kadodia, Ask Imam.com with Mufti Ebrahim Desai)

*The puberty being referred to is the puberty of physical growth - so that a person is capable for sexual relations - without any harm coming to them.

This statement of the scholar - which is based on Islamic teachings - Husain Kadodia proves three points;
1) A girl who has had her menses but has not matured in her body physically should not have sexual relations, if she was to have a marriage contract. This is because she could be harmed in the process, since her body has not physically matured. [Some girls do have periods early, but their body has not matured for any form of sexual activity - so she is not permitted to have such relations due to the harm caused to her in the process*.]

*This is based on the hadith of the Prophet;

Click this bar to view the full image.


It was related on the authority of Abu Sa'id Sa'd bin Malik bin Sinan al-Khudri, radiyallahu 'anhu, that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said:

لا ضرر ولا ضر
"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)
"There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm."
[A excellent hadith which Ibn Majah, Al-Daraqutni and others related as of sound isnad, but which Malik related in his Muwatta' as of broken isnad, from 'Amr bin Yahya, from his father, from the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, but dropping (the name of) Abu Sa'id. This hadith has lines of transmission which strengthen one another (so that it may be regarded as of sound isnad).]


more explanation;
http://fortyhadith.iiu.edu.my/hadith32.htm

2) A young woman who has matured in every single way, but has not had her menses - then she is permitted to have sexual relations with her husband when she has had a valid marriage contract completed. This is because she will not be harmed through such relations since her body and mind has matured for it. [This may occur in countries like Antarctica where women at the age of 20 may have matured in every way except they have not had their periods due to the climate conditions.]


3) Periods signify that a girl has the responsibilities in the religion such as prayer, fasting, etc. Just like boys with their first wet dreams.



Mental & Emotional Maturity


Girls and boys also reach mental maturity quicker in close climate nations because they are brought up this way by their culture and upbringing. This usually makes them mature more emotionally too.

Think about it; if the norms in a culture are to marry early, then the upbringing by the parents will ensure that the child is brought up to mature and prepare for marriage at an earlier age.



If someone can handle the it well, then what's the problem?


In Islam, if someone is capable of being married and is mature in a way to handle its responsibilities, it is permitted in Islam for that person to get married, male or female. But if there will be any harm that could come to them through such a marriage, then the marriage should not go ahead, and may be annulled by the Islamic judge if there is harm in it.

Marriage may be done earlier in Muslim nations because having any intimate relations outside of marriage is not permitted. Instead, it is to be done through a secure and safe relationship of marriage. This is why marriage is encouraged, because if a person is capable of having a relationship with someone else, then why not through a trustworthy relationship which both parties agree to?







The marriage of Aisha




There is a very strong proof we can use to show that Aisha (peace be upon her) had reached physical maturity before she moved into the Prophet’s house, and this is Aisha’s own statement in which she said:


When the girl reaches nine years of age, she is a woman.


(Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Kitab al-Nikah)


This statement of Aisha shows that it was the norms in Arabia for a girl to mature on to become a young woman, i.e. become physically mature for marriage and its rights at the age of 9.




Further, Aisha describes herself at the age of nine;
Imam Ibn kathir (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates a hadith in his Al-Bidayah wa-Nihayah:
"Imam Bukhari (May Allah have mercy on him) narrates another hadith which he heard from Farwa bin abi al-Mughria who heard from 'Ali bin Masher who heard from Hisham bin 'Urawh who heard from his father who reports from 'Aisha (May Allah be pleased with her), who said: 'When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was betrowth to me, I was six years old. Later, when we migrated from Makkah to Medina and stayed at bin harith bin khdhrj's place, I had grown up. My hair had got longer and I had physically matured; however, I still used to play with other girls...I was nine years old at that time."

Source Page 210-211

There are cases of this being the norms throughout the world, without any harm coming to the young woman. Its only lately that the ages have started to rise to above 15, abit more or less. This is likely due to the longer life expectancy of people today in comparison to the past.



Married to a man who's 54?


What we see is that the age of the man is largely irrelevant to the question, so long as he is still reasonably within the age of marriage. Prophet Muhammad had only around 12 white hairs when he passed away at the age of 63, and his description [see Shama'il Al Tirmidhi] proves he was not a senile old man like some people may think.

Any marriage by a people is based on the cultural norms of the time. The marriage should be based on social norms. The Prophet Muhammad married according to the social norms of his society (marriage of younger women to older men was the norms), and we marry according to the social norms that we live in. Social norms are not a problem, so long as they do not contradict firmly set ethics, and it has been proven above that this marriage did not cause any harm to Aisha whatsoever, but caused a great deal of good. Every other marriage should be judged individually based on its own circumstances.





Useful Links;

Marriage in other nations throughout the world at early ages, and more in depth explanation on the issues addressed;
http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/q...edophile-1441/
Reply

EllyDicious
04-23-2010, 08:39 PM
Qatada, thank you for the detailed information.
You have been a very good contributor to the thread!

:D
Reply

EllyDicious
04-23-2010, 08:42 PM
@_muslim_ In your [now edited] post you had written that nowadays people get married about 18-26 [in the world]...
This could be wrong because the more time goes on, the more people don't want to get married or decide to do it after their 30s.
Reply

aamirsaab
04-23-2010, 08:55 PM
I think Qatada's post puts the full stop on this topic.

So I'ma lock this thread.

Please leave your hate messages (and related mumbo jumbo) at the usual address:
123 fake road
fake city
fakeland
fa1 lol
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