The truth about the burka, women's rights other things

[LauraS]

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom. The girl travelled back to Afghanistan to see what life is like there compared with her own. I have always had my reservations about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but the women in these countries seem to want help. Since the war in Afghanistan and the "fall" of the taliban they do have more freedoms but the with the superior attitudes of some of the men there they still have a long way to go.

These women want to walk out on the street and not be looked at in horror because they aren't wearing a Burka. Why should women have to cover themsleves completely? Yes, they can dress modestly, I'm not someone who likes short skirts myself, but what is the justification for them not showing their faces? Didn't God create Adam and Eve without clothing? It was only when they ate the fruit that their "eyes were opened" and they became "ashamed" of their nakedness. So isn't a man made issue and not something God intended? Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

As for women's rights in Afghanistan, they are terrible. Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men? People had even been detonating bombs where girls had been going to school. The documentaries showed a prison where an 18 had been for a couple of years because she ran away from home rather than marry the man her father had decided on. Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind? I'm quite sure most on this forum wouldn't agree with this, so surely you would want to see the taliban out of Afghanistan? I have read posts saying how many freedoms women in Islam, some even suggesting more than in Christianity. On one forum a man said that people would have much greater freedoms if the UK became an Islamic State, but this depends on what form of Islam is followed, because in countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia there doesn't seem to be a great deal of freedom compared with western socities. Talking of Saudi Arabia brings me on to another point, a married British couple were recently arrested for kissing in public. How come Muslims complain if western socities object to the burka but western societies aren't allowed to behave how they normally would in eastern countries? How is kissing your husband/wife in public a crime? Didn't God create us to love each other? When did showing love become a crime or immoral?

One final point/question I have is how I have read posters on various forums say how they would bring Islam to western socities in a peaceful way unlike how Christians have done to the east in the past. Yet they also talk of about the Muslims "conquered" the Arabian Pennisular. Surely there can be no conquering going on without force and bloodshed. I'm sure the conquered people didn't just welcome them with open arms. I'm sure every religion has a jaded past of trying to force it's beliefs onto others. How can it be right to make any country of mixed religions live under a particular religion's rule?

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

[aadil77]

I think islamically a woman may only show her hands and face.

So whatever else you see is just culture, whether its the western culture of forcing women to wear less clothes or its the afghan culture making women wear more

[جوري]

if a woman wants to wear a burka it is her right to do so, and you really have no say on what clothing articles others wear. If you want to know why some women choose the Burka you may approach one and ask her, instead of assuming for her that someone imposed such a choice on her.. Muslim women won't bite.. if you look in horror, or others look in horror at Muslim women sporting Burka, I'd think and rightfully so that you are the one with the problem not them. Those who choose burka in spite of family, friends, and people like you, do so because they choose God above all else and they should be applauded for their choice.. they prefer their dignity and anonymity in spite of folks haranguing them on board, on the media, on the streets!

you are not starting trouble.. I don't see why there is trouble to be stirred? I don't agree with nudists colonies or folks scantily clad, but there isn't much I can do about it.. I feel that they are degraded pieces of meats who only send a certain message out and set the bar so low. A woman completely covered up must want you to appreciate her for something other than her sexuality!

all the best


p.s Yes, ask your troops out of Afghanistan and maybe folks won't be bombed as often? food for thought and in general refrain from speaking on behalf of folks you have never met in a land you've never tread!

[aadil77]

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

Already answered, people opinions here don't matter only what has been commanded by god. If people chose to wear who are you to say you disagree with it?

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom. The girl travelled back to Afghanistan to see what life is like there compared with her own. I have always had my reservations about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but the women in these countries seem to want help. Since the war in Afghanistan and the "fall" of the taliban they do have more freedoms but the with the superior attitudes of some of the men there they still have a long way to go.

Don't even try to justify your wars which have caused massacres of muslims over a few womens rights, this is all force fed to you by the media to change public opinion of the wars - absolutely disgusting. The taliban are far from gone. They will fight till they turn afghanistan into a shariah state, not some democratic state with a puppet govt installed.

These women want to walk out on the street and not be looked at in horror because they aren't wearing a Burka. Why should women have to cover themsleves completely? Yes, they can dress modestly, I'm not someone who likes short skirts myself, but what is the justification for them not showing their faces?

Already answered

Didn't God create Adam and Eve without clothing? It was only when they ate the fruit that their "eyes were opened" and they became "ashamed" of their nakedness. So isn't a man made issue and not something God intended?

So you're sayin its ok to go out naked? You don't know what god intended so try not to make assumptions, right now His laws states that you must cover up and dress modestly

Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

As for women's rights in Afghanistan, they are terrible. Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men? People had even been detonating bombs where girls had been going to school. The documentaries showed a prison where an 18 had been for a couple of years because she ran away from home rather than marry the man her father had decided on.

Did the documentaries show the abuses and torture of afghan civilians in bagram prison? I guess not, don't just fall for everything you see. Yes women do have the right to education, again its just culture, if the taliban were allowed to implement islam properly in afghanistan there would be none of these issues.

Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind? I'm quite sure most on this forum wouldn't agree with this, so surely you would want to see the taliban out of Afghanistan?

Lol we want your armies out of afghanistan more than anything, the people you here of on the news aren't taliban, they're just tribal leaders who don't do things according to islam.

I have read posts saying how many freedoms women in Islam, some even suggesting more than in Christianity. On one forum a man said that people would have much greater freedoms if the UK became an Islamic State, but this depends on what form of Islam is followed, because in countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia there doesn't seem to be a great deal of freedom compared with western socities.

You can have all the freedoms you like in an islamic state as long as they're not freedoms to sin and commit immoral acts

Talking of Saudi Arabia brings me on to another point, a married British couple were recently arrested for kissing in public.

Yh unlike britain we don't allow immoral acts in public, if people wanna kiss they do what they want in their own privacy

How come Muslims complain if western socities object to the burka but western societies aren't allowed to behave how they normally would in eastern countries?

How can you complain about modesty and not complain about immodest acts

How is kissing your husband/wife in public a crime? Didn't God create us to love each other? When did showing love become a crime or immoral?

Showing love? are you showing love to each other or the rest of the world, keep it in the bedroom. I suppose you'd like the right to fornicate in public as well?

One final point/question I have is how I have read posters on various forums say how they would bring Islam to western socities in a peaceful way unlike how Christians have done to the east in the past. Yet they also talk of about the Muslims "conquered" the Arabian Pennisular. Surely there can be no conquering going on without force and bloodshed. I'm sure the conquered people didn't just welcome them with open arms. I'm sure every religion has a jaded past of trying to force it's beliefs onto others. How can it be right to make any country of mixed religions live under a particular religion's rule?

Well we conqured and forced no one to become muslim, unlike you lot.

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

hope that answers your questions

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[جوري]

was Islam won by the sword?

http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?724

:w:

[Hidaaya]

It isn't compulsory to wear a niqaab, which is the face covering. Many chose to wear it.

There's nothing wrong with wearing the burqa. And no, they absolutely don't wear it because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public. It's completely the opposite. They wear it because they have the confidence to walk out in public dressed differently.

as aadil77 said, whatever else you see is jut culture, which is often mixed in between with religion.

[CosmicPathos]

It isn't compulsory to wear a niqaab, which is the face covering. Many chose to wear it.

There's nothing wrong with wearing the burqa. And no, they absolutely don't wear it because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public. It's completely the opposite. They wear it because they have the confidence to walk out in public dressed differently.

as aadil77 said, whatever else you see is jut culture, which is often mixed in between with religion.

It also is ok to wear a bikini. Islam does not say "bikini is haram." The word for bikini or something similar is not used in quran/sunnah. So people who say that bikini is haram, they say because of cultural reasons as bikini as a dress was not thought of in the Eastern countries.

[Hidaaya]

^ It is said because bikinis are immodest clothing.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

1. go and learn from reliable sources. media wanting ratings and money and who are bias towards their soldiers isn't included under the tile of "reliable."

2. get the facts straight and dont presume that becuase women cover, its because they are ashamed of what they look like. and

3. if you are going to complain about lack of woman's rights, im sure you will be more than willing to point out the lack of in the western world. it's onyl fair if you do.

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

well excellent, we love debate.



p.s is it just me, or is anyone else sick of repeating themselves? :'( :phew these debates are getting horrendously stale and repetitive.

[Cabdullahi]

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five,

I evacuated the thread after seeing these bits......

[aadil77]

It isn't compulsory to wear a niqaab, which is the face covering. Many chose to wear it.

There's nothing wrong with wearing the burqa. And no, they absolutely don't wear it because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public. It's completely the opposite. They wear it because they have the confidence to walk out in public dressed differently.

as aadil77 said, whatever else you see is jut culture, which is often mixed in between with religion.

sorry I didn't mean that, it is islamic to wear niqab and the lot, I just meant its not compulsary - I think

[gladTidings]

Welcome to the forum Laura =)

I hope I can give you some answers that will please God, God willing....

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom.

I watched the documentary too =)

Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

I don't believe women who choose to wear the burka do so because they have a lack of confidence, but first and foremost because they believe it is a commandment of God.

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their....” (Quran 24:31).

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59)

I think the general consensus amongst scholars is that a woman should cover everything but may show her face and hands in public, some believe it is neccessary to cover the face, if there is no danger of harm to her. The wisdom and benefits of wearing 'hijab' for me personally are many, mostly it is a protection or a barrier between me and the evil that exists in the world. It is liberating from the standards of attractiveness and allows me to be recognised as an individual. I dont wear the burqa but I guess for some women the burqa does the same.

Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men?

There is nothing that prevents a women from seeking an education in Islam, I agree women should be educated, in fact it is compulsory for a believer to seek knowledge.

A beautiful saying of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him):

Related in al-Musnad and other sources, is the hadeeth of Aboo ad Dardaa’, may Allaah be pleased with him, in which he says, The Messenger of Allaah - sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam - said: "He who treads a path in search of knowledge Allaah will direct him to tread a path from the paths of Paradise. The Angels lower their wings for the student of knowledge in approval of what he does. All in the heavens and earth and the fish in the depth of the water seek forgiveness for the scholar, and the superiority of the scholar over the worshipper is like the superiority of the full moon at night over the rest of the stars. Verily the scholars are the heirs to the Prophets. Verily, the Prophets did not bequeath deenars or dirhams. All they left behind was knowledge, so whoever takes it, has indeed acquired a huge fortune." [Al-Musnad, 5/196. Also related by Aboo Daawood, 3/317; at-Tirmidhee 5/49; Ibn Maajah 1/81, ad-Daarimee, 1/98 and ibn Hibbaan, 1/152 (al-Ihsaan). It was declared saheeh by al-Albaanee; see Saheeh al-Jaami 5/302. Ibn Rajab has provided a commentary to this Hadeeth in a small work of his, so one should refer to it.]

Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind?

What you saw in the documentary with regards to this woman was purely due to cultural practices and restrictions. There is nothing from Islam that supports this. It may be interesting for you to read the history of women in the time of the Prophets and the respect, power and dignity that Islam gifted to them.

How is kissing your husband/wife in public a crime? Didn't God create us to love each other? When did showing love become a crime or immoral?

It goes against islamic etiquette to show public displays of affection since shyness is a branch of faith:

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Faith is like a tree with seventy branches, the loftiest of it is the testimony of Oneness of Allah, while the lowest of it is removing what is objectionable from the path of people, and shyness is a branch of faith.”

I don't think love has anything to do with publicly kissing your partner.


I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

=)

[M..x]

What are feelings here about wearing a burka? I personally disagree with it, as would probably be expeected lol.

Hello =) If you want my personal view, I think its obligatory to cover the face and the body & I feel that the niqaab (full veil) is not compulsory. However, I don't feel the ban is acceptable either. There was a ridiculous article in my local newspaper that wearing a veil (that does NOT cover the eyes) distorts one's vission. Its kind of laughable that they come up with such pathetic theories, how on Earth does it affect one's vision if it doesnt cover the eyes?! In the context of a multi cultrual society (UK), Everyone should be entitled to wear as they please, its their body, their freedom, their clothing. But I guess freedom to practice religion/expression and so forth that they bang on about are such fundemendal rights to every individual clearly don't apply to Muslims. Such double standards and hipocracy!

I watched a documentary recently about a Muslim girl who was born in Afghanistan but taken to the UK by her mother when she was five, where her mother felt she could live a life of greater freedom. The girl travelled back to Afghanistan to see what life is like there compared with her own. I have always had my reservations about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq but the women in these countries seem to want help. Since the war in Afghanistan and the "fall" of the taliban they do have more freedoms but the with the superior attitudes of some of the men there they still have a long way to go.

I think the males and females in the country want help.. But not for them reasons. The only freedom they need is from the opressors who have taken over their lands. How can they go into a totally different country and try to implement their own laws and what THEY think is right? Can they ever accept Shariah law to be implemented into a Western country? And say if anyone came and dictated this country like they do Afghanistan or Iraq? How much could we tolerate?
How can they try to merge 2 different systems which are just incompatiable with each other?
Note: I am not someone who goes protesting on the street for Shariah to be implemented into the country. Its just an example to illustrate my point. Its a two way thing and just shows the West's double standards. I was born and raised in the UK and I appreciate everything it has provided for me =)

Why should women have to cover themsleves completely?

It comes down to modesty and only preserving their beauty for their husbands.
Also let me correct you, I'm not ignorant to say that EVERY Muslimah in the world wants to be covered and such situations that you describe do exist where she may be forced. But its a minority let me assure you. I'm not just saying this because I am Muslim myself, but I have NEVER come accross someone who has been forced to cover. Its almost becoming a myth. And its true to say that there was a time where women were opressed and maybe have been forced. But for goodness sakes its 2010 and we don't live in the Middle Ages no more. Even in the poorest countries, theirs so much awareness of Muslim Women Rights etc, so do you really think that this happens every where? The media distort everything. Its their nature.

So isn't a man made issue and not something God intended?

As there is a lenghty debate about this issue, its useful searching for links about this on the site in order to find out whether its fardh (obligatory) or not.

Are women wearing the burka today because they have lost confidence in showing their face in public?

You will find the most beuatiful of women wearing the niqaas therefore I very much doubt this.

As for women's rights in Afghanistan, they are terrible.

Agreed, but I would assume anyone's rights in Afghanistan or Iraq etc are terrible. They have people who have invaded their country for pity's sake!

Why shouldn't girls be educated, why should they just be cattle for men?

Islam condems this. This is not Islam. Don't believe everything you have heard.

People had even been detonating bombs where girls had been going to school.

Disgusting.

The documentaries showed a prison where an 18 had been for a couple of years because she ran away from home rather than marry the man her father had decided on.

Horrible, again Islam prohibits forced marriages. & Its amazing how they try to pull that off (I would assume) as Islamic practices? Disgraceful.

Why should she be imprisoned for having her own mind?

She shouldn't.

I'm quite sure most on this forum wouldn't agree with this, so surely you would want to see the taliban out of Afghanistan?

Yes, and I would also be veyr happy to see my brothers and sisters not getting tortured by those disgusting vile humans that have invaded their country also.

I have read posts saying how many freedoms women in Islam, some even suggesting more than in Christianity. On one forum a man said that people would have much greater freedoms if the UK became an Islamic State, but this depends on what form of Islam is followed, because in countries like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia there doesn't seem to be a great deal of freedom compared with western socities.

Its sad really the Arab country's are so corrupt its unbeleiveable. My visit to Pakistan (also another supposed Shariah goverened country) showed me exactly that. There is more ignorance there than here (UK) and it just shows alot. Obviously they lost a lot of knowledge along tha way. And every principle of Islam is just unbelievably amazing. Obviously I would say that. But take for example, the punishment of theft. You'll get the ignorant minded saying, which country would just chop of your hands like that? But there are SO many conditions and circumstances that the court would take into consideration e.g. the presence of witnesses and it acts as a method of deterance. If someone knew that they'd have their hands chopped of for committing theft, would they be more obliged to do it? Not much eh?

To be honest, its not pleasant to be seeing a couple getting off inapropriate. The phrase 'get a room' springs to mind. There's a time and place for everything. Holding hands is one thing, and having a full on session is another.

One final point/question I have is how I have read posters on various forums say how they would bring Islam to western socities in a peaceful way unlike how Christians have done to the east in the past. Yet they also talk of about the Muslims "conquered" the Arabian Pennisular. Surely there can be no conquering going on without force and bloodshed. I'm sure the conquered people didn't just welcome them with open arms.

The history of Islam is vital here and how it spread & how it continues to spread. It is recognised as the world's fastest growing religion and obviously there is a reaosn for that. I'm sure that nowaday converts/reverts have not had Islam imposed on them, but have come to Islam in their own way. And its beautful seeing that.

I'm sure every religion has a jaded past of trying to force it's beliefs onto others.

I beleive not. Even at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), out of fear of the spread of Islam, the Makkan's were so hostile towards the followers of Muhammad & I guess as they realised the logical and spiritual truth that Islam bought, they were bought to a sense of realisation. It'd benefit you to read a book of Seerah if your interested God-Willing.. =)

How can it be right to make any country of mixed religions live under a particular religion's rule?

Well I'm sorry, but if you are going to tell the whole world how your such a multi-cultural society, accept that you'll get a lot of people migrating from multi-cultural societies.. Although there must be SOME control on mass-immigration!

I'm not trying to spark trouble, only debate.

Appreciated and likewise =) Best of Luck.

[ardianto]

It also is ok to wear a bikini. Islam does not say "bikini is haram." The word for bikini or something similar is not used in quran/sunnah. So people who say that bikini is haram, they say because of cultural reasons as bikini as a dress was not thought of in the Eastern countries.

Bikini is not haram, but showing the body to non-mahram is haram.
So, it's ok if a Muslimah wear bikini as long as only in the front of her husband.

[LauraS]

Thanks for the replies all :D there was a lot there so I've answered the main points made by everybody lol.

I never said women shouldn’t be allowed to wear burkas, just that I disagree with it, I certainly don’t “look in horror” on those that do. I know there are many Muslim women who wear burkas through pure faith and not force. However in places where there are stricter regimes like Afghanistan women feel safer wearing burkas, not so much because of their religion, but because they don’t have to endure the disapproving looks of men. Isn’t there a difference between dressing modestly and only showing your eyes? Of I wouldn’t go out naked, my point is originally God created people naked, He didn’t make people with ready made clothes.

As for the war in Afghanistan, I have very mixed feelings about it, I have read about things that have gone on, I don’t just think the west are the “goodies”. It must be remembered that the reason for the war was September 11th, don’t get me wrong I know America is not the shining beacon of freedom and brilliance it pretends to be, but after the atrocity, were they really going to sit back and do nothing? I don’t think so. What about the rights of the people in the twin towers and in those airplanes? War was obviously going to be the result of what the taliban did, they are too dangerous to stay in power. Much as you might not like to think it there are Muslims are who agree with both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq because of the countries’ regimes. The taliban had a chance to implement Islam “properly” didn’t they? However they were dictators, self-important men who wanted to keep women down. They don’t appear to have been good Islamic leaders at all, you said yourself they don’t do things according to Islam, doesn’t it benefit the country for them to be gone then? The people on that documentary weren’t paid to say what they did, it showed genuine people with real life stories who do want help and more freedom. Why would there be organisations set up for Afghani women for greater rights if they didn’t? I’m not pretending I’m speaking for a country I don’t know, the people are speaking for theirselves.

I still don’t see how kissing in public can be considered immoral, who is anybody to say a married couple can only kiss in their home? There’s a huge difference between kissing and having sex in public aadil77.

I refuse to believe the Muslims of the past were any different to anyone else when it came to expansion, conquering land will have meant battle which would have meant death. Was it purely to spread Islam that this death took place? It would also have been out of interests to gain greater power with religion as a mask, just like the Christian crusades. Whatever the reason the Islamic armies didn’t just arrive peacefully. I don’t think the Greeks were too happy when they were part of the Ottoman Empire.

Thank you for those quotes Pearl, they were interesting J

[Predator]

I never said women shouldn’t be allowed to wear burkas, just that I disagree with it, I certainly don’t “look in horror” on those that do. I know there are many Muslim women who wear burkas through pure faith and not force. However in places where there are stricter regimes like Afghanistan women feel safer wearing burkas, not so much because of their religion, but because they don’t have to endure the disapproving looks of men. Isn’t there a difference between dressing modestly and only showing your eyes? Of I wouldn’t go out naked, my point is originally God created people naked, He didn’t make people with ready made clothes.

As for the burqa thing , I suggest you stop feeling sorry for them and thinking they are deprived unless you plan to take all the nuns out on the street and strip them naked and have them start fornicating for the pleasure of life and living free. What a person wears is their personal choice and if they are doing it out of their faith and commitment to their Lord then it would be hypocritical of you to see them as deprived while viewing your christian nuns as "devoted".



Islam is the fastest growing religion and tomorrow it may be the dominate religion in your country . All this means for you is less drinking buddies and girls for fornication, less crime, teen pregnancies, gangs and a better society over all. No, Muslims are going to come over and take over, when your own people find the truth in Islam and adopt it as their way of life then your "culture" will change on its own as the society's norms and values change over time. Back in the 30s/40s young college age girls used to do social dating as way of finding a mate, today we see 11yr olds spreading their legs for you. Is this the culture you value? Don't hold onto your culture so blindly, change can be for good or bad and so far it is has been bad, maybe it'll be good once more of your folks find islam as their way of life and adopt new values and norms, freeing your society of the ills prevalent today in the name of "liberalism".

[Somaiyah]

Peace be with you,

You shouldn't compare Islam to a society where they make up own rules and reduce women's AND men's freedom. Islam has rules, but not all islamic societies follow them in the right way.

As for me I don't have niqab (don't use the word burqa) but I want to. Where is our freedom to have the choice to wear niqab in the West? Yes, women who are forced to have niqab are oppressed - but we who are forced to not have niqab are also oppressed. It has to be the own choice.

Covering up is obligatory, but how to cover is different opinions in. I believe that niqab is good but not obligatory, because I haven't done enough research in this yet. But covering up isn't bad. I have never understood why people believe freedom is to be naked rather then show that your body is YOUR body and nobody else except the ones you want to can see it. Allah almighty put up these rules for us to be protected, the woman is protected when she dresses well. The more dressed the more protected. It's not about oppression, men should also cover but men are stronger than women normally, it's about protection and obeying.

[Yusuf Saeed]

As for the war in Afghanistan, I have very mixed feelings about it, I have read about things that have gone on, I don’t just think the west are the “goodies”. It must be remembered that the reason for the war was September 11th, don’t get me wrong I know America is not the shining beacon of freedom and brilliance it pretends to be, but after the atrocity, were they really going to sit back and do nothing? I don’t think so. What about the rights of the people in the twin towers and in those airplanes?

Welcome to the forum, Laura.

In nowadays world many people have misunderstood the cause and effect. The cause of the war in Afghanistan was not the attacks of the 11th September, rather it was a direct consequence of the Western occupation of the Middle-East just like the 9/11 itself was a result of the occupation of Muslim lands. Islam had coexisted peacefully with America for more than 140 years before Americans supported the creation of Israeli state and its army. It's after the support of Israel and its atrocities against Muslims and the further occupation of the Middle-East by the Americans when the "islamic terrorism" set in.

And even if some think 9/11 started the war in Afganistan was the American response in any way justified or civilized? It wasn't even until the end of 2001 when more civilians were killed in the bombings of Afghanistan than died in 9/11. U.S. bombs have killed more than 3,500 Afghan civilians, according to a study, released Dec. 10, by Marc W. Herold, professor of economics, international relations and women's studies at the University of New Hampshire.

Chris Hedges, an American journalist, author, and war correspondent (also he was part of the team of reporters at The New York Times awarded the Pulitzer Prize for the paper's coverage of global terrorism) has explained the matter really well:

"Muslim rage is stoked because we station tens of thousands of American troops on Muslim soil, occupy two Muslim nations, make possible the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, support repressive Arab regimes and torture thousands of Muslims in offshore penal colonies where prisoners are stripped of their rights. We now have 22 times as many military personnel in the Muslim world as were deployed during the crusades in the 12th century. The rage comes because we have constructed massive military bases, some the size of small cities, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Kuwait, and established basing rights in the Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. The rage comes because we have expanded our military empire into neighboring Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. It comes because we station troops and special forces in Egypt, Algeria and Yemen. And this vast network of bases and military outposts looks suspiciously permanent.

The Muslim world fears, correctly, that we intend to dominate Middle East oil supplies and any Caspian Sea oil infrastructure. And it is interested not in our protestations of good will but in the elemental right of justice and freedom from foreign occupation. We would react, should the situation be reversed, no differently.

The brutal reality of expanding foreign occupation and harsher and harsher forms of control are the tinder of Islamic fundamentalism, insurgences and terrorism. We can blame the violence on a clash of civilizations. We can naively tell ourselves we are envied for our freedoms. We can point to the Koran. But these are fantasies that divert us from facing the central dispute between us and the Muslim world, from facing our own responsibility for the virus of chaos and violence spreading throughout the Middle East. We can have peace when we shut down our bases, stay the hand of the Israelis to create a Palestinian state, and go home, or we can have long, costly and ultimately futile regional war. We cannot have both."

I refuse to believe the Muslims of the past were any different to anyone else when it came to expansion, conquering land will have meant battle which would have meant death. Was it purely to spread Islam that this death took place? It would also have been out of interests to gain greater power with religion as a mask, just like the Christian crusades. Whatever the reason the Islamic armies didn’t just arrive peacefully.

As for the extreme violence supposed to have been a part of the spread of Islam, even a Western historian Barbara Rosenwein (got a Ph.D from University of Chicago) has admitted that "for example Jews and Christians in Persia and Jews and Monophysites in Syria, were dissatisfied [with the local rule] and sometimes even welcomed the Muslim forces".

Also, several Western historians see the Medieval Muslim leaders such as Saladin extremely tolerant towards their enemy. A good example of this is that despite the crusaders' slaughter when they originally conquered Jerusalem in 1099, Saladin granted amnesty and free passage to all common Catholics and even to the defeated Christian army. Saladin summoned the Jews and permitted them to resettle in the city. Even in Europe Saladin became known for his good manners and chivarly.

The following text about the capturing of Jerusalem, written by Paul E. Walker, a historian with his focus on Medieval Islamic History, shows how wrong it is to think that Muslim leaders were brutal in their conquests just like the crusaders were: "In stark contrast to the city's conquest by the Christians, when blood flowed freely during the barbaric slaughter of its inhabitants, the Muslim reconquest was marked by the civilized and courteous behaviour of Saladin and his troops."

[Salahudeen]

The correct view as indicated by the evidence is that the woman’s face is ‘awrah which must be covered. It is the most tempting part of her body, because what people look at most is the face, so the face is the greatest ‘awrah of a woman. This is in addition to the shar’i evidence which states that it is obligatory to cover the face.

For example, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)…”

[al-Noor 24:31]

Drawing the veil all over the juyoob implies covering the face.

When Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) was asked about the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59] –

he covered his face, leaving only one eye showing. This indicates that what was meant by the aayah was covering the face. This was the interpretation of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) of this aayah, as narrated from him by ‘Ubaydah al-Salmaani when he asked him about it.

In the Sunnah there are many ahaadeeth, such as: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The woman in ihraam is forbidden to veil her face (wear niqaab) or to wear the burqa’.” This indicates that when women were not in ihraam, women used to cover their faces.

This does not mean that if a woman takes off her niqaab or burqa’ in the state of ihraam that she should leave her face uncovered in the presence of non-mahram men. Rather she is obliged to cover it with something other than the niqaab or burqa’, on the evidence of the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: “We were with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in ihraam, and when men passed by us, we would lower the khimaar on our heads over our faces, and when they moved on we would lift it again.”

Women in ihraam and otherwise are obliged to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men, because the face is the center of beauty and it is the place that men look at… and Allaah knows best.

Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah, 1/396, 397

He also said:

It is OK to cover the face with the niqaab or burqa’ which has two openings for the eyes only, because this was known at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and because of necessity. If nothing but the eyes show, this is fine, especially if this is customarily worn by women in her society.

Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah, 1/399

And Allaah knows best.



Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid



http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/21134/niqaab

[LauraS]

squiggle thanks for that it was interesting!

Yusuf Saeed- I don't think any act can justify the killing of innocent people, just like America's intereference in the Middle East didn't justify September 11th. It does upset me when I see the clips a bombs and missiles and think of the families that many are falling on. As I said the war in Afghanistan and maybe even Iraq (I'm certainly dubious about that one!) is difficult for me, because I know there are things probably going on behind the scenes that the media doesn't tell us about I've been reading about them myself. However, like the media in the west, how much of that is propoganda from the east? I do think it's right to remove the taliban from power and I know that there are Muslims enjoying greater freedoms in Iraq and Afghanistan now and, particualrly in Afghanistan like with the women's organisations fighting for even more. I'm not talking about the taliban as Muslims but just as a group that have twisted Islam.

This brings me on to the other point you made about Jews and Christians prefering Islamic rule, well can't the same be said of those in Afghanistan who now have greater freedoms then? I'm quite sure not everyone under Islamic rule would have been impressed just like not everybody in Afghanistan is.

I've often though Saladin sounds like a good bloke lol, however it must be remembered that those leaving Jerusalem where only allowed to if they paid a tax and if they didn't they were sold into slavery. Surely this isn't allowed in Isalm. Also, once again, to conquer the Arabian Pennisular would have had to use force. They didn't give people a chance to accept them into scoiety, they forced themselves into it. In this way Islam is the same as other religions.

Don 't get me wrong, I have no bias, I've read things about the past of Christianity that has made me virtually hate the Church. All religions have done terrible things in the past in the name of "peace" and how they think their Gods will accept this I have no idea and if there is a God I hope they get what they deserve eg with the burning of the Cathars. Hopefully in this new age of more enlightened minds accepting that there are different people around them we can learn to live more peacefully with each other (well that's debatable I suppose) and realise that murdering people because they worship in a slightly different way is in no way acceptable. If whatever God out there does actually condone this, then what does that say about the God we all worship really?

[LauraS]

I'm confused lol, there were two replies that have now disappeared but I'll respond to them anyway. :S

Yusuf Saeed- Of course if that has happened it’s disgusting, of course we don’t know how many of it is propaganda, but I can imagine there is more to it all than meets the eye. Like in all armies there are those that genuinely are good and believe what they are doing is right while there are people like those soldiers and suicide bombers who certainly aren’t doing right. Innocent people should never be targeted, I remember when September 11th happened and they showed footage from a country in the middle east (I can’t remember which now) and there were people in the streets cheering including children. HOW can you cheer at that atrocity?! Also, I’ve just thought, why do suicide bombers in Iraq and Afghanistan keep targeting marketplaces? :S There are many many soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan who feel they are doing the right thing and once again I reiterate that there are civilians in these countries and Muslims abroad who also think this. You may not think the soldiers are good to civilians but were the Taliban or Saddam Hussein? The wars aren’t black and white, both sides have done good and bad.

I can’t deny at all that, for his time, Saladin showed a great mercy to non-Muslims, but my point still remains the Muslims armies of the past would have done exactly the same as the other, taken land by force and enslaved people. I don’t think any of us here should try to make out that our ancestors have never done bad things and that our culture has always done the right thing. Every person out there is human and when they are part of an army, always pretty much did the same things. L

Aadil77 do you honestly believe the Taliban are the better alternative for the people of Afghanistan? Have you been to Afghanistan recently? Do you know how the people think or that there is an increase of brothels? Like you say I can’t judge for not being there then surely you can’t either? As I’ve said the Taliban had the chance to implement Islam properly but they didn’t, you say it was just a few leaders who caused problems and yet issues of oppression seem to have been across the whole country. You can’t say it was just a few one off cases. Disregarding your hatred the invasion can you honestly say the people aren’t happy the Taliban are gone?

[LauraS]

One further point is you shouldn't refer to us as "you lot" as if every Briton is responsible for what's going on, just like you may not want to be blamed for terrorism I don't want to be blamed with the fact the British government has gone to war. Have you seen the war protests?

[M..x]

Responding to your comment about tha state of Afghanistan. Obama needs to stop sleeping and wake up. I want to reiterate one point.. The state of Afghanistan has significanty deteriorated sinse American occupation. What EXACTLY has America done by going in that country? Ripping it to pieces, creating torture prisons with tha likes of Abu Ghraib, raping innocent girls and mothers? What have they achieved? Tha likes of Sadaam (Iraq) failed to adhere to Shariah law, no doubt about it, but where has Iraq moved on sinse his execution? Are you really going to tell me that the people in Iraq and Afghanistan have got their freedom back and are not oppressed because these wonderful Americans trotted along? They are better off without them AND tha Taliban =)

[S_87]

i responded but seems in forum prob it got deleted. cant be bothered responding but i ask you to remember that:

Talking of Saudi Arabia brings me on to another point, a married British couple were recently arrested for kissing in public. How come Muslims complain if western socities object to the burka but western societies aren't allowed to behave how they normally would in eastern countries? How is kissing your husband/wife in public a crime? Didn't God create us to love each other? When did showing love become a crime or immoral?

countries like saudi/afghanistan/ etc do not promote freedom of speech/belief nor do they claim they do. they dont promote nor claim to promote democracy. Brtain DOES. so you cant compare like- saudi does this then why cant britain because that is hipocratical.

just think the west are the “goodies”. It must be remembered that the reason for the war was September 11th, don’t get me wrong I know America is not the shining beacon of freedom and brilliance it pretends to be, but after the atrocity, were they really going to sit back and do nothing? I don’t think so. What about the rights of the people in the twin towers and in those airplanes? War was obviously going to be the result of what the taliban did, they are too dangerous to stay in power. Much as you might not like to think it there are Muslims are who agree with both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq because of the countries’ regimes. The taliban had a chance to implement Islam “properly” didn’t they? However they were dictators, self-important men who wanted to keep women down.

please remember that propaganda is a big tool in war. many dont realise that afghanistan was a building country having just come out of a war. they dont show how the taliban were slowly building it up. they dont show the womens hospitals they tried opening. they only promote that 'no girls allowed education.' well if afghanistan was a 'extreme shariah' state then theyd know education was an obligation to both men and women. now a country buildinng up from scratch with limited resources. are they gonna put girls schools everywhere straight away or is there a balance? how do you know that there werent girls in homes learning from an elderly person?

[aadil77]

Aadil77 do you honestly believe the Taliban are the better alternative for the people of Afghanistan? Have you been to Afghanistan recently? Do you know how the people think or that there is an increase of brothels? Like you say I can’t judge for not being there then surely you can’t either? As I’ve said the Taliban had the chance to implement Islam properly but they didn’t, you say it was just a few leaders who caused problems and yet issues of oppression seem to have been across the whole country. You can’t say it was just a few one off cases. Disregarding your hatred the invasion can you honestly say the people aren’t happy the Taliban are gone?

Plenty of afghans have had to migrate here, I spoken to some lads and they all support the taliban, they said things were much better with the taliban. Its obvious isn't it who would want to get their whole country blown up. Look at the news - everytime civilans get blown up by the invading armies their families all call for the taliban back

[CosmicPathos]

@ Laura: If you are at so much pain about the killing of humanity then tell me that do you have fun in your life? Do you laugh at jokes of your friends? Do you go to the pub? If yes then all this talk you are having about how it hurts your when bombs fall on people is just pure BS.

[cat eyes]

you think that the problem women are facing in afganistan is the burka? lol

have you ever approached a muslim woman before in your life and asked her why she covers herself? go and do that and see what answers she gives you then you will know that what ever you have watched is a load of rubbish and lies to destroy peoples minds about islam and what it really stands for.

[LauraS]

@ Laura: If you are at so much pain about the killing of humanity then tell me that do you have fun in your life? Do you laugh at jokes of your friends? Do you go to the pub? If yes then all this talk you are having about how it hurts your when bombs fall on people is just pure BS.

What on earth are you talking about? Are you suggesting I'm not allowed to enjoy life because people around the world are dying because of wars? Afghanistan isn't the first war ever, there's been war all of the place ever since any of us were born. How you never laughed in your life? That doesn't mean I can't sympathise with suffering people. I think you you should reread your post and realise it's you that's talking "BS". If I spent my whole life thinking about people dying I would get depression and never do anythingl.

No I don't think the only issue in Afghanistan is the burka obviously.

Aadil77- if you read above you will see another Muslim who think the country would be better off without the cruel taliban and there are plenty more. That documentary are watch did show real people if it didn't show the darker side of the invading soldiers.

[Yusuf Saeed]

Yusuf Saeed- Of course if that has happened it’s disgusting, of course we don’t know how many of it is propaganda, but I can imagine there is more to it all than meets the eye. Like in all armies there are those that genuinely are good and believe what they are doing is right while there are people like those soldiers and suicide bombers who certainly aren’t doing right. Innocent people should never be targeted, I remember when September 11th happened and they showed footage from a country in the middle east (I can’t remember which now) and there were people in the streets cheering including children. HOW can you cheer at that atrocity?! Also, I’ve just thought, why do suicide bombers in Iraq and Afghanistan keep targeting marketplaces? :S There are many many soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan who feel they are doing the right thing and once again I reiterate that there are civilians in these countries and Muslims abroad who also think this. You may not think the soldiers are good to civilians but were the Taliban or Saddam Hussein? The wars aren’t black and white, both sides have done good and bad.

You are absolutely correct about both sides having done good or bad. But the Western propaganda in the end covers up the propaganda of those who fight against the Western occupation in the Middle-East.
When some mujahideen accidentally in their fight against the occupants happen to kill a couple of civilians we hear at night and day about how brutal they are, it's often out of proportion. But when some American airstrike happens to kill dozens of innocent people they do all they can to cover it up and not let the world know about it. That's why we often don't know about how many atrocities the American war machine has really committed in the region.

Of course some of these incidents make it to the media, but that is largely owing to the locals, not the Americans. I mean incidents such as thisone:
"Afghan officials said that up to 90 people were killed by the strike near Kunduz, a northern city where the trucks got stuck after militants tried to drive them across a river late Thursday night."
( http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/05/wo.../05afghan.html )

Cheering at the atrocities of 9/11 is obviously horrible, especially when it's done by children. Also, suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the marketplaces also goes against Islam in several ways, and noone should condone such acts. According to Islam whoever willingly takes his/her own life will go to Hellfire. But it's important to note that the number of such suicide attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan skyrocketed after the foreign troops invaded the two countries. Although the Americans promised to bring freedom and safety to the region.

Saddam Hussein had little if anything at all to do with Islam. But let us not forget that he was an ally of the U.S. for decades and that the U.S. and the West in general provided him with billions of dollars. The blueprints of factories for chemical weapons in Iraq were provided by an American company. And where were the Americans with their "rights and freedoms" when thousands of Kurds were being gassed in Iraq?

American government has a long history of supporting repressive Arab regimes whenever it's of any use to them, all the "rights and freedoms" the U.S. preaches are forgotten when some kind of profit or chance of gaining more power is within reach.

[cat eyes]

What on earth are you talking about? Are you suggesting I'm not allowed to enjoy life because people around the world are dying because of wars? Afghanistan isn't the first war ever, there's been war all of the place ever since any of us were born. How you never laughed in your life? That doesn't mean I can't sympathise with suffering people. I think you you should reread your post and realise it's you that's talking "BS". If I spent my whole life thinking about people dying I would get depression and never do anythingl.

No I don't think the only issue in Afghanistan is the burka obviously.

Aadil77- if you read above you will see another Muslim who think the country would be better off without the cruel taliban and there are plenty more. That documentary are watch did show real people if it didn't show the darker side of the invading soldiers.

first of all the burka is not an issue. these people take money obviously to make these lies.

are you so foolish that you will believe everything you watch instead of investigating it yourself?

[LauraS]

first of all the burka is not an issue. these people take money obviously to make these lies.

are you so foolish that you will believe everything you watch instead of investigating it yourself?

Ak, it feels like we're all going round in circles. The documentary didn't make out so much that the burka was an issue, but women didn't feel comfortable not wearng one because of the horrified looks men were giving them, which was shown in the documentary, they weren't paid actors. No of course I don't believe everything the TV tells me, but are you foolish enough to believe that everyone in the documentary including the mother of the girl who sat and explained the reasons for bringing her daughter to the UK (for freedom from the taliban), the women setting up organisations for greater rights, one of their fathers that support her wholeheartedly and her family are all liars in the pay of the BBC? I looked up some of these organisations after watching and I'd love to help, but I don't know how.

My dad is in the navy and he has had Muslims come and say that they support the work in Afghanistan. Some of the people on the forum are in the same postion as me and have never been to Afghanistan so who are you to judge either?

One day I'd like to make a documentary that devotes half an hour to those in Afghanistan who support the invasion adn those that don't.

Yusuf Saeed- I've often reports of civillians who have been killed in airstrikes, it's not something completely ignored and I don't think anyone in the UK or US would believe no innocent civillians had been harmed. It's awful and despite mad scientis believing I can't feel sorry for people and live my life as normal at the same time well he's wrong. I spend a lot of time thinking about issues such as Afghanistan and I still don't know what to think, I think it's right to remove the taliban, but quite obviously the war's dragging on more and more people are getting killed with no particular end in sight. I makes me think we should just withdraw now, but would the new government cope? Would the taliban just come back? I don't want the people of Afghanistan to have to live with the taliban as they were and surely I'm allowed to think this without people having a go at me and saying "don't try to speak for a country you haven't been to" because I'm sure there are many many who don't want the taliban, like abother poster said they would be better off without the taliban or the armies. So I just don't know what to think.

I know all about the hypocrisy of America believe me, it's something that really gets on my nerves. A country that declares itself to be the home of democracy and freedom yet didn't get rid of the slave trade until the 1860's and even then didn't treat black people fairly. Then there's the killing of the native Americans (western films annoy me too). An American put a video on youtube slagging off the UK because of the Empire, but seemed to forget all of the above and we were thiry years earlier in getting rid of slavery (not that that excuses it of course). I've also read all about the "mistake" of bombing of the Iranian passenger jet. Although I'd better be careful of what I say now. I'm rambling anyway.

[CosmicPathos]

What on earth are you talking about? Are you suggesting I'm not allowed to enjoy life because people around the world are dying because of wars? Afghanistan isn't the first war ever, there's been war all of the place ever since any of us were born. How you never laughed in your life? That doesn't mean I can't sympathise with suffering people. I think you you should reread your post and realise it's you that's talking "BS". If I spent my whole life thinking about people dying I would get depression and never do anythingl.

No I don't think the only issue in Afghanistan is the burka obviously.

Aadil77- if you read above you will see another Muslim who think the country would be better off without the cruel taliban and there are plenty more. That documentary are watch did show real people if it didn't show the darker side of the invading soldiers.

Hi Laura,
Yes it would be very selfish and cruel of you to enjoy life while your brothers/sisters in humanity are constantly dying every single second of your life. Furthermore, for you to claim that you really care about their deaths, while you keep on enjoying your life and having fun, just highlights hypocrisy. Sorry, i had to say this. So either stop claiming that you care for these humans who are dying because your actions dont fit with your expressed sadness or really work up on your act.

[Yusuf Saeed]

Yes it would be very selfish and cruel of you to enjoy life while your brothers/sisters in humanity are constantly dying every single second of your life. Furthermore, for you to claim that you really care about their deaths, while you keep on enjoying your life and having fun, just highlights hypocrisy. Sorry, i had to say this. So either stop claiming that you care for these humans who are dying because your actions dont fit with your expressed sadness or really work up on your act.

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu!
Brother, we are all allowed to enjoy the good things in this world God has not forbidden. There is nothing wrong with some laughter and joy in our lives as long as there is not too much laughter and as long as we don't forget that our ultimate goal is Jannah. :)

Having occasional fun doesn't mean we can't care about others. There were people dying also at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (sallalahu aleihi wa salam) but it didn't stop him from playing with children sometimes for example.

Assalamu alaikum.

[cat eyes]

Ak, it feels like we're all going round in circles. The documentary didn't make out so much that the burka was an issue, but women didn't feel comfortable not wearng one because of the horrified looks men were giving them, which was shown in the documentary, they weren't paid actors. No of course I don't believe everything the TV tells me, but are you foolish enough to believe that everyone in the documentary including the mother of the girl who sat and explained the reasons for bringing her daughter to the UK (for freedom from the taliban), the women setting up organisations for greater rights, one of their fathers that support her wholeheartedly and her family are all liars in the pay of the BBC? I looked up some of these organisations after watching and I'd love to help, but I don't know how.

My dad is in the navy and he has had Muslims come and say that they support the work in Afghanistan. Some of the people on the forum are in the same postion as me and have never been to Afghanistan so who are you to judge either?

One day I'd like to make a documentary that devotes half an hour to those in Afghanistan who support the invasion adn those that don't.

Yusuf Saeed- I've often reports of civillians who have been killed in airstrikes, it's not something completely ignored and I don't think anyone in the UK or US would believe no innocent civillians had been harmed. It's awful and despite mad scientis believing I can't feel sorry for people and live my life as normal at the same time well he's wrong. I spend a lot of time thinking about issues such as Afghanistan and I still don't know what to think, I think it's right to remove the taliban, but quite obviously the war's dragging on more and more people are getting killed with no particular end in sight. I makes me think we should just withdraw now, but would the new government cope? Would the taliban just come back? I don't want the people of Afghanistan to have to live with the taliban as they were and surely I'm allowed to think this without people having a go at me and saying "don't try to speak for a country you haven't been to" because I'm sure there are many many who don't want the taliban, like abother poster said they would be better off without the taliban or the armies. So I just don't know what to think.

I know all about the hypocrisy of America believe me, it's something that really gets on my nerves. A country that declares itself to be the home of democracy and freedom yet didn't get rid of the slave trade until the 1860's and even then didn't treat black people fairly. Then there's the killing of the native Americans (western films annoy me too). An American put a video on youtube slagging off the UK because of the Empire, but seemed to forget all of the above and we were thiry years earlier in getting rid of slavery (not that that excuses it of course). I've also read all about the "mistake" of bombing of the Iranian passenger jet. Although I'd better be careful of what I say now. I'm rambling anyway.

No i dont believe nothing on t.v to be honest anything to do with muslims i find it difficult to believe because i know my religion has got nothing to do with the problems going on there. they try to make out its cos we are muslims.

they try and make out ''oh look at that poor muslim woman she has to cover herself shes oppressed'' blah blah blah blah they have no education what so ever any country that has poor education do you expect them to act morally? towards there wife or child??

i know women are getting treated badly there but that is EVERYWHERE. how many women get raped in america everyday?how many times have i switched on sky news and some little girl or boy was kidnapped on the streets of london or birmingham?? you say women have freedom in your country right, she can go anywhere she wants she can enjoy she can sleep around with who ever she wants, is this a life for a young girl? throwing her body at every one? why are you going on about afganistan. take a look at your own country for once. take a look at how many *****s get abortions and kill there unborn babies. how many babies are found in rubbish bins in london because some young girl was told its okay to have sex. thats your society okay. this is what your country is promoting. believe me you will lose sleep over it, its that disgusting..

ha women have rights you say they have bloody to much rights if you ask me... islam protects women.

it protects women from the evils of this world. this religion was sent to give rights to women and not to oppress them. dont judge this beautiful religion cos of a few black sheep.

[LauraS]

No i dont believe nothing on t.v to be honest anything to do with muslims i find it difficult to believe because i know my religion has got nothing to do with the problems going on there. they try to make out its cos we are muslims.

they try and make out ''oh look at that poor muslim woman she has to cover herself shes oppressed'' blah blah blah blah they have no education what so ever any country that has poor education do you expect them to act morally? towards there wife or child??

i know women are getting treated badly there but that is EVERYWHERE. how many women get raped in america everyday?how many times have i switched on sky news and some little girl or boy was kidnapped on the streets of london or birmingham?? you say women have freedom in your country right, she can go anywhere she wants she can enjoy she can sleep around with who ever she wants, is this a life for a young girl? throwing her body at every one? why are you going on about afganistan. take a look at your own country for once. take a look at how many *****s get abortions and kill there unborn babies. how many babies are found in rubbish bins in london because some young girl was told its okay to have sex. thats your society okay. this is what your country is promoting. believe me you will lose sleep over it, its that disgusting..

ha women have rights you say they have bloody to much rights if you ask me... islam protects women.

it protects women from the evils of this world. this religion was sent to give rights to women and not to oppress them. dont judge this beautiful religion cos of a few black sheep.

How many times do I have t let people know I don't judge Islam by the actions of the Taliban? I'm not on about how Islam treats women, I'm on about how the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

I do look at my own country, I have plenty to say about the issues in the UK, I can accept criticism of the way things are, but it's clear from this forum some people aren't too good at accepting it themselves although they're happy to dish it out. I don't know why you're getting so offended that I dislike the way they Taliban behaved? Surely you don't agree with them, I'm not even saying the invasion is the answer to everything.

[cat eyes]

How many times do I have t let people know I don't judge Islam by the actions of the Taliban? I'm not on about how Islam treats women, I'm on about how the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

I do look at my own country, I have plenty to say about the issues in the UK, I can accept criticism of the way things are, but it's clear from this forum some people aren't too good at accepting it themselves although they're happy to dish it out. I don't know why you're getting so offended that I dislike the way they Taliban behaved? Surely you don't agree with them, I'm not even saying the invasion is the answer to everything.

I know who the real trouble makers are who are all behind the taliban

[Predator]

A common misconception is that Muslim women are the only ones who cover their hair. It may be true that Islam is the only religion in which most women follow its directives to cover the hair, but it is not the only religion to have such directives.

It is particularly interesting to look at the case of Christianity, since Christianity is the predominant religion in the West, and it is Westerners, including observant Christians, who are often the first to criticize Islam because of the hijab (modest dress, including headcovering).



Is Covering the Hair a Religious Commandment for Christian Women?

There can be only one answer to this: yes, it is! Simply open the Bible to the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 11. Read verses 3-10.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.

The meaning of this passage is plain enough. We can make the following syllogisms:

Syllogism 1

Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace

Having a shaved head is the same as praying with an uncovered head

Therefore, having a shaved head is a disgrace

Syllogism 2

If it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head, she should cover her head

It is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head - see syllogism 1

Therefore, a woman should cover her head

In other words, the passage means what it says. Have you ever wondered why Catholic nuns dress like they're wearing hijab (Muslim hijabi women, have you ever been mistaken for a nun? I have, more than once). Have you ever wondered why Mary the mother of Jesus (peace be upon them both) is always depicted in Christian art with her hair covered? Did you know that until the 1960s, it was obligatory for Catholic women to cover their heads in church (then they "modernized" the service)?

There are some interesting points that can be made about the Christian directive.

1) The explicit purpose of the Christian woman's headcovering, as stated by Paul, is that it is a sign of man's authority over woman. The explicit purpose of Islamic hijab is modesty. Strange how so many Westerners think that the purpose of hijab is a symbol of male authority. Maybe they know that that's what it is in their own religion (Christianity) so they assume that Islam must be the same...!

2) The Christian woman is to cover her head whenever she is praying, whether it be at the church service or just personal prayer at home. This may mean that if she is not praying at home, she is uncovered around male guests who are not related to her; or if she is praying at home, that she is covered around her own husband and family. If any more proof were needed than Paul's own words that the Christian headcovering is not about modesty, this must certainly be it!

If you feels that hijab is a sign of oppression for the Muslim female, please do read the above and then read the Quran. Believe me, if Allah SWT meant for hijab to be a sign of male authority, the Quran would be as unambiguous about it as Paul is in the Bible.

[CosmicPathos]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatuAllahi wa barakatuhu!
Brother, we are all allowed to enjoy the good things in this world God has not forbidden. There is nothing wrong with some laughter and joy in our lives as long as there is not too much laughter and as long as we don't forget that our ultimate goal is Jannah. :)

Having occasional fun doesn't mean we can't care about others. There were people dying also at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (sallalahu aleihi wa salam) but it didn't stop him from playing with children sometimes for example.

Assalamu alaikum.

Assalam Alaikum,

Bro, Our Nabi pbuh played with children because it is an important requirement for the psychological development of children. Playing with small children does not mean one is enjoying one self. There is huge difference in giggling while having a big jar of booze down at the pub and playing with small children for the sake of their development or emotional attachment.

Humans have the tendency to be hypocritical, make arguments and speak like they are the bastions of humanity and they care about the dying ones but if you really scrutinize their personal lives, its not all sad and gloom in their lives. Kher, may Allah allow us to feel the pain of those who are suffering and allow us to not excessively enjoy this life.

Walaikum assalam.

[Yusuf Saeed]

Assalam Alaikum,

Bro, Our Nabi pbuh played with children because it is an important requirement for the psychological development of children. Playing with small children does not mean one is enjoying one self. There is huge difference in giggling while having a big jar of booze down at the pub and playing with small children for the sake of their development or emotional attachment.

Humans have the tendency to be hypocritical, make arguments and speak like they are the bastions of humanity and they care about the dying ones but if you really scrutinize their personal lives, its not all sad and gloom in their lives. Kher, may Allah allow us to feel the pain of those who are suffering and allow us to not excessively enjoy this life.

Walaikum assalam.

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatuAllahi.

Amen, we really need not to enjoy this life excessively. And that was my point as well: not to have too much fun and enjoyment in this life, however, some is allowed. Of course I didn't have going to the pub in my mind as entertainment but we all have some fun in our lives and enjoy some moments and it doesn't necessarily make us bad people. Although the Nabi's purpose for playing with children may have been else than fun he probably also had fun in the process. He also enjoyed spending time with his wives and he has said: "The world is but a (quick passing) enjoyment; and the best enjoyment of the world is a pious and virtuous woman".

We should give Laura some credit for that at least she has come to discuss these matters with Muslims instead of feeding herself for example on Fox News as many unfortunately do. As much as I've understood she also doesn't support the foreign troops in Afghanistan and has also said she hasn't made up her mind about Afghanistan for example and that means it is our duty to present her with facts to the best of our knowledge and capability.

Brother, I hope this doesn't seem as if my purpose is to argue with you as it really isn't so.
May Allah guide us all on the straight path. :)

Assalamu alaikum.

[S_87]

LauraS there are women on this forum who wear the 'burka' (thats the wrong word btw, a burka is a style) rather the niqab-face veil and arent oppressed...

[LauraS]

Airforce- There are many hings in the Bible and with Chritianity's past actions that I have a problem with, such as the "obey" part of the marriage vows which you can now option to have taken out. I'm not a practicing Christian so this does not make me a hypocrite.

mad scientist- I do not drink, can't stand the stuff, so I certainly do not have a "big jar of booze" while laughing with my friends, just like I'm being told not to judge all women in Afghanistan don't judge me because I'm western. I get annoyed by binge drinkers believe me. However just because Islam prohibits drink does not mean everyone who drinks is uncaring of the world. Well with your argument no one can care about people because no one's perfect and I have never tried to say I am. Of course I have my faults, but I still care about issues.

Amani- Once again, I am aware that there are many Muslim women not forced to wear the niqab (thanks for correcting me lol) and I can guess most of the women on this board do so.

[Supreme]

Indeed. The Burkha is a sign of both oppression and liberation, depending on whose wearing it. If the female is wearing it out of choice and enjoys wearing it, not because some local tribesmen have threatened to throw acid in her face if she doesn't, then it can be a liberating decision. I don't like the Burkha in any way, shape, space or form, but if there's one resounding message of Muslims who defend it, it is that the women who wear it mostly do so out of choice. Therefore, I would support the rights of anyone who wants to wear one.

[LauraS]

Indeed. The Burkha is a sign of both oppression and liberation, depending on whose wearing it. If the female is wearing it out of choice and enjoys wearing it, not because some local tribesmen have threatened to throw acid in her face if she doesn't, then it can be a liberating decision. I don't like the Burkha in any way, shape, space or form, but if there's one resounding message of Muslims who defend it, it is that the women who wear it mostly do so out of choice. Therefore, I would support the rights of anyone who wants to wear one.

Sums up exactly what I think. :)