Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s smashing of 360 idols in Mecca

[Anam 27]

Hello everyone,

We had a Malay Chinese Buddhist Professor visit our University some days back, she returns to Malaysia tomorrow. She is a Professor of Religious studies at some University there, in a very short conversation with her, I realised that she has some negative opinions about Islam. She also has pretty unfavorable opinions about the Malay majority in her nation.On learning my family background, she remarked that one shouldn't marry Muslim men. I personally have nothing against marrying Muslim men, as it happens I am engaged to a non practicing Anglican, but I have dated Muslims as well, & still am friends with a couple of my past Muslim boyfriends, I also have very good Muslim friends, of both sexes.

She claimed that it was Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)'s destruction of the 360 idols around the kaaba which causes Muslims like the Taliban to destroy Bamiyan Buddhas.

Personally I have nothing against idolatry, I love some Catholic & Orthodox idols & images, they're beautiful to look at, even though I am no longer Christian, I love their beauty, like I love some beautiful mosques around the world. I also feel people's religious beliefs(or lack of beliefs) need to be respected.I would condemn the destruction of any idolatrous site anywhere on earth-be it Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Neopagan, like I would condemn the destruction of mosques.

How do Muslims explain this incident, I am interested to know so that I can give the Muslim perspective.

[aadil77]

How do we explain it? well kind of like how the zionists do when they destroyed and killed many muslims and their homes because of claiming to own the 'holy land'. The Kaabah is a house of Allah commanded by Allah to be built, it was built by Adam at first (muslims correct if I'm wrong) and then renovated by prophet Ibrahim. This is a house of Allah and no idols should be in it or even near it.

Do you know that prophet Muhammad is not the only prophet that has destroyed idols? Prophet Ibrahim has destroyed idols too, heres the story;

Ibrahim left his father's house and abandoned his people and what they worshipped. He decide to do something about their state of disbelief, but did not reveal it. He knew that there was going to be a great celebration on the other bank of the river which would be attended by all the people. Ibrahim waited until the city was empty, then came out cautiously, directing his steps towards the temple. the streets leading to it were empty and the temple itself was deserted for the priests had also gone to the festival outside the city.

Ibrahim went there carrying a sharp axe. He looked at the stone and wood statues of the gods and at the food laid in front of them as offerings. He approached one of the statues and asked: "The food in front of you is getting cold. Why don't you eat?" the statue kept silent and rigid. Ibrahim asked all the other statues around him:"Will you not eat of the offering before you?" (37:91)

He was mocking them for he knew they would not eat. He once again asked then: "What is the matter with you that you do not speak?" (37:92)

he then raised his axe and started smashing the false gods worshipped by the people. He destroyed them all except one on whose neck he hung the axe. After this his anger subsides and he felt at peace. He left the temple. He had fulfilled his vow to show his people a practical proof of their foolishness in worshipping something other than All.

When the people returned, they were shocked to see their gods smashed to pieces, lying scattered all over the temple. They began to guess who had done that to their idols and Ibrahim's name came to their minds.

Allah the Almighty said: they said: "Who has done this to our aliah (gods)? He must indeed be one of the wrongdoers." They said: "We heard a young man talking against them who is called Ibrahim." They said: "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may testify." they said: "Are you the one who has done this to our gods, O Ibrahim?" Ibrahim said: "nay, this one, the biggest of them (idols) did it, Ask them, if they can speak!"

SO they turned to themselves and said: "Verily you are the Zalimun (polytheists, and wrongdoers)." Then they turned to themselves (their first thought and said): "Indeed you (Ibrahim) know well that these idols speak not?" Ibrahim said: "DO you then worship besides Allah, things that can neither profit you nor harm you? If upon you, and upon that which you worship besides Allah! Have you then no sense?" (21:59-67 Quran)

[Anam 27]

How do we explain it? well kind of like how the zionists do when they destroyed and killed many muslims and their homes because of claiming to own the 'holy land'. The Kaabah is a house of Allah commanded by Allah to be built, it was built by Adam at first (muslims correct if I'm wrong) and then renovated by prophet Ibrahim. This is a house of Allah and no idols should be in it or even near it.

Do you know that prophet Muhammad is not the only prophet that has destroyed idols? Prophet Ibrahim has destroyed idols too, heres the story;

Hello aadil77,

I have mentioned before that I was raised Christian so I do know the story of Abraham as its there in the Bible, I know the story as its there in the Quran too.

I am agnostic today so I do not believe in any god\s or religions, I personally do not believe in many gods, nor do I claim that there's a single god. I do respct people's rights to their religion, be it worshipping many gods, one god or no god. I would no more support the destruction of idols than I would support the destruction of mosques or synagogues.

As I said, this issue was raised to me by a fellow Professor, I hadn't thought much about it before, although I knew it, now that she mentioned it, it seems like something questionable to me too.

Well, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, whats' the proof that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed the pagans? Concrete proof, not vague claims please. I know that some Muslims claim there're footprints there, were those footprints matched with Ibrahim's?

Also, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't the Jews object to the idols there? Ibrahim story is a story of the Jews, but Jews lived in religious peace with the pagans, they even intermarried like Kaab ibn al Ashraf's Jewish mother & pagan father, & the children were raised Jewish as halacha states. Kaab became the leader of a Jewish tribe, pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Jews killing pagans or vice versa over the kaaba.

Another thing, even if its true that the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ask the idolators to remove their idols elsewhere? They could have removed them.

As an agnostic, I don't believe in any God\s, idols or mosques-but I won't want to see others' beliefs hurt, they would certainly be hurt if someone destroyed their idols. My grandma has a beautiful idol of Mother Mary & baby Jesus, every night she prays before it,as a child I would pray in front of it before my examinations, I don't believe in these stuff anymore, but I know that my grandmother would be extremely saddened if someone destroyed it, just like I know that my father would be extremely upset & outraged if someone tears or burns his Quran.

I believe in neither, but I think the beliefs of both deserve respect.

Respectfully,
Anam

[aadil77]

Well, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, whats' the proof that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed the pagans? Concrete proof, not vague claims please.

When did I say prophet Muhammad told the pagans? I don't think he told them prophet Ibrahim built it, but why would he have to? If they're pagans why would they care about prophet Ibrahim and whether he rebuilt it? the kaabah is a house of Allah and there are not supposed to be any idols inside it.

I know that some Muslims claim there're footprints there, were those footprints matched with Ibrahim's?

Ive never heard of any footprints, but the black stone is what prophet Ibrahim stood on whilst building the kaabah

Also, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't the Jews object to the idols there?

There were no jews is makkah only madinah, jews have been known to be cowards and they've worshipped idols themselves

Ibrahim story is a story of the Jews, but Jews lived in religious peace with the pagans, they even intermarried like Kaab ibn al Ashraf's Jewish mother & pagan father, & the children were raised Jewish as halacha states.

Whats intermarrying between jews and arabs got to do with this?

Kaab became the leader of a Jewish tribe, pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Jews killing pagans or vice versa over the kaaba.

Who killed pagans over the kaabah, Are you trying to suggest something?

Another thing, even if its true that the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ask the idolators to remove their idols elsewhere? They could have removed them.

Why would they remove them? If was part of their beliefs to keep them in the kaabah.

As an agnostic, I don't believe in any God\s, idols or mosques-but I won't want to see others' beliefs hurt, they would certainly be hurt if someone destroyed their idols.

Well he was hurt when they tried many times to kill him, the prophet was very tolerent but if people start a war on you then you have the right to retaliate, so he and the companions simply conquered makkah and got rid of the filthy idols from inside the kaabah and that was it.

My grandma has a beautiful idol of Mother Mary & baby Jesus, every night she prays before it,as a child I would pray in front of it before my examinations, I don't believe in these stuff anymore, but I know that my grandmother would be extremely saddened if someone destroyed it, just like I know that my father would be extremely upset & outraged if someone tears or burns his Quran.

Yeh well if you place that idol in a mosque you can expect it to get destroyed

I believe in neither, but I think the beliefs of both deserve respect.

Respectfully,
Anam

thank you, you're welcome to come and attack islam whenever you want

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[Anam 27]

Hello aadil 77,

It seems that I have offended you with my questions, my sincerest apologies for that. I am, as I said, an irreligious person, this is something that my fellow Professor told me, I thought I might ask it here. I am not a believer in Islam or any other religion.

When did I say prophet Muhammad told the pagans? I don't think he told them prophet Ibrahim built it, but why would he have to? If they're pagans why would they care about prophet Ibrahim and whether he rebuilt it? the kaabah is a house of Allah and there are not supposed to be any idols inside it.

I know that they're pagans but for me as an agnostic, pagans have the same rights to freedom of religion that Muslims have, Christians have, Jews have or the same right to freedom from religion that non believers have.

I don't believe in Allah anymore than I believe in idol gods, but I am asking this regarding freedom of religion.

Ive never heard of any footprints, but the black stone is what prophet Ibrahim stood on whilst building the kaabah

With due respect aadil, I think anyone can claim anything about God or gods, they're unverifiable claims. The pagans too could have claimed that their idols represent gods found in Heaven, they're praying to God's earthly images, I have seen Christians, Hindus etc do this. When my grandma prays before idols, this is what she claims.

There were no jews is makkah only madinah, jews have been known to be cowards and they've worshipped idols themselves

I don't see why worshipping idols is "cowardice" its a personal choice to worship whatever or whosoever one pleases.Same with worshipping no god, would you say that my mother & grandmother are cowards because they revere idols of Jesus & Mary? Or I am a coward because I worship no God? I personally think that we're all intelligent human beings who worship whatever we choose to.

Whats intermarrying between jews and arabs got to do with this?

Nothing, I was just saying that they had no religious conflicts before, if the Jews too had believed that the kaaba was built by Abrahim, they in all probability should have objected to this site being used for polytheistic purposes, they didn't.

Who killed pagans over the kaabah, Are you trying to suggest something?

Please don't be offended without reason aadil, I am not trying to suggest anything at all, all I say is that, Jews & pagans had co existed peaceful previously, neither objected to the others religious rituals, they intermarried, for that matter, there was no prohibition on conversion to Christianity either, as Waraqa ibn Nawfal shows us. If the Jews had seriously believed that the kaaba was built by Abraham, they might have wanted to stop idolatry & polytheism there,they didn't.

As I asked you, you have shown no proof that it was built by Ibrahim, its only belief, exactly like pagan belief in idolatry, or atheist belief in no god.

Why would they remove them? If was part of their beliefs to keep them in the kaabah.

But Prophet Muhammad could have asked them to do this all the same, they might or might not have done this, in which case he could've smashed them. As an analogy, if someone enters into a Church with a Quran & begins reciting from it in the Church, I think its best to ask the individual to leave his book behind & come back, or leave the Church, rather than burning the Quran.

Well he was hurt when they tried many times to kill him, the prophet was very tolerent but if people start a war on you then you have the right to retaliate, so he and the companions simply conquered makkah and got rid of the filthy idols from inside the kaabah and that was it.

I would not call anyone's idols filthy aadil, same as I wouldn't call a mosque or Quran filthy. As I said, people's religious beliefs or lack thereof need to be respected. I know that people have the right to retaliate, but that doesn't include a right to destroy others' religious sites, or holy texts, for eg if Muslims attack a country today, non Muslims do have a right to retaliate, but that doesn't mean they have a right to burn all copies of the Quran or break down all mosques, then ask people to leave Islam. I think everyone has religious rights, & this is a violation of people's religious rights. Even people who have attacked you have basic rights, including rights to freedom of religion.

Yeah well if you place that idol in a mosque you can expect it to get destroyed.

I realise this, but the kaaba wasn't a mosque then, it was a place of idolatrous worship, believers believed that its a place for worshipping their idols. I asked you to show me proof that it was built by Ibrahim, you didn't do that, in the absence of proof & the Jews' non objection to idolatry there, pagans could well believe that its their religious site.

I don't believe that my house is a mosque, it contains Jesus, Mary & Saints' idols, if Muslims claimed that its originally a mosque, I would ask them for proof.

thank you, you're welcome to come and attack islam whenever you want

As I said, I have no intention to attack or offend, I am only asking about issues someone raised to me & which interest me also.

Regards,

Anam.

[Anam 27]

There is another recorded destruction of an idolatrous site by Prophet Muhammad, here:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 643:
Narrated Qais:
Jarir said "Allah's Apostle said to me, "Won't you relieve me from Dhul-Khalasa?" I replied, "Yes, (I will relieve you)." So I proceeded along with one-hundred and fifty cavalry from Ahmas tribe who were skillful in riding horses. I used not to sit firm over horses, so I informed the Prophet of that, and he stroke my chest with his hand till I saw the marks of his hand over my chest and he said, O Allah! Make him firm and one who guides others and is guided (on the right path).' Since then I have never fallen from a horse. Dhul-l--Khulasa was a house in Yemen belonging to the tribe of Khatham and Bajaila, and in it there were idols which were worshipped, and it was called Al-Ka'ba." Jarir went there, burnt it with fire and dismantled it. When Jarir reached Yemen, there was a man who used to foretell and give good omens by casting arrows of divination. Someone said to him. "The messenger of Allah's Apostle is present here and if he should get hold of you, he would chop off your neck." One day while he was using them (i.e. arrows of divination), Jarir stopped there and said to him, "Break them (i.e. the arrows) and testify that None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck." So the man broke those arrows and testified that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah. Then Jarir sent a man called Abu Artata from the tribe of Ahmas to the Prophet to convey the good news (of destroying Dhu-l-Khalasa). So when the messenger reached the Prophet, he said, "O Allah's Apostle! By Him Who sent you with the Truth, I did not leave it till it was like a scabby camel." Then the Prophet blessed the horses of Ahmas and their men five times.

This wasn't a site built by Ibrahim too, was it? What is the Islamic justification for this incident? Is this the general principle applicable for all non People of the Book sites & even idolatry of Christians?

[aadil77]

I think you're here to cry about religious freedom, but I'll answer you anyway

Hello aadil 77,

I don't see why worshipping idols is "cowardice" its a personal choice to worship whatever or whosoever one pleases.Same with worshipping no god, would you say that my mother & grandmother are cowards because they revere idols of Jesus & Mary? Or I am a coward because I worship no God? I personally think that we're all intelligent human beings who worship whatever we choose to.

Their cowardice was they would abandon their prophets when they fealt their lives were at risk.

Nothing, I was just saying that they had no religious conflicts before, if the Jews too had believed that the kaaba was built by Abrahim, they in all probability should have objected to this site being used for polytheistic purposes, they didn't.

This is where you will fail at bringing jews into this, jews don't believe prophet Ibrahim renovated the kaabah


Please don't be offended without reason aadil, I am not trying to suggest anything at all, all I say is that, Jews & pagans had co existed peaceful previously, neither objected to the others religious rituals, they intermarried, for that matter, there was no prohibition on conversion to Christianity either, as Waraqa ibn Nawfal shows us. If the Jews had seriously believed that the kaaba was built by Abraham, they might have wanted to stop idolatry & polytheism there,they didn't.

Again jews did not believe prophet Ibrahim had anything to do with the city of makkah, this is what the jews think:

There is no local tradition connecting Abraham with Mecca; and we are forced to put this down as a pure invention on the part of the prophet, based on political as well as on theological reasons. According to Shahrastani (Arabic text, p. 430), this Kaaba was the reproduction of the one in heaven. The "Makam Ibrahim," or Station of Abraham, is still pointed out within the sacred enclosure at Mecca; and the footsteps of the patriarch are believed by the worshipers still to be there (Snouck Hurgronje, "Het Mekkaansche Feest," p. 40; Mekka, i. 11).

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz0mly1Q3QU


As I asked you, you have shown no proof that it was built by Ibrahim, its only belief, exactly like pagan belief in idolatry, or atheist belief in no god.

Show me proof that it was built by pagans. What proof will you except?

"And when we made the house a place of resort unto men, and a sanctuary, and (said) take the station of Abraham for a place of prayer; and covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael, saying, 'Do ye two cleanse my house for those who make the circuit, for those who pay devotions there, for those who bow down, and for those, too, who adore. . . .' And when Abraham raised up the foundations of the house with Ishmael, 'Lord, receive it from us. Verily, Thou art hearing and Thou dost know. Lord, and make us, too, resigned unto Thee and of our seed also a nation resigned unto Thee, and show us our rites, and turn toward us; verily, Thou art easy to be turned and merciful. Lord, and send them an apostle from amongst themselves, to read to them Thy signs and teach them the Book and wisdom, and to purify them; verily, Thou art the mighty and the wise'" (compare suras iii. 90-93, xxii. 27-31).



But Prophet Muhammad could have asked them to do this all the same, they might or might not have done this, in which case he could've smashed them. As an analogy, if someone enters into a Church with a Quran & begins reciting from it in the Church, I think its best to ask the individual to leave his book behind & come back, or leave the Church, rather than burning the Quran.

The kaabah was no temple as I've made clear, it had belonged to us from years ago, it had no place for idols. After arab pagans waged war against us and were defeated, we rightly conquered the city. When a city is conquered everything in it becomes spoils of war, we don't have to deal with pagans to remove their idols from our holy land, maybe the prophet did ask them -Allah knows, but it was not their place of worship that they could keep idols inside.

I would not call anyone's idols filthy aadil, same as I wouldn't call a mosque or Quran filthy. As I said, people's religious beliefs or lack thereof need to be respected. I know that people have the right to retaliate, but that doesn't include a right to destroy others' religious sites, or holy texts, for eg if Muslims attack a country today, non Muslims do have a right to retaliate, but that doesn't mean they have a right to burn all copies of the Quran or break down all mosques, then ask people to leave Islam. I think everyone has religious rights, & this is a violation of people's religious rights. Even people who have attacked you have basic rights, including rights to freedom of religion.

Yep they have the right to freedom of religion in their own religious places of worship, in this case it weren't theirs.



I realise this, but the kaaba wasn't a mosque then, it was a place of idolatrous worship, believers believed that its a place for worshipping their idols. I asked you to show me proof that it was built by Ibrahim, you didn't do that, in the absence of proof & the Jews' non objection to idolatry there, pagans could well believe that its their religious site.

I've showed you my proof, now if you want to refute this evidence you will have to bring your own 'proof' that the place was built by arab pagans.

.

When muslims conqured israel we didn't touch the christian churches which were full of idols, so try not to find one example of muslims getting rid of idols that were in their place of worship

Btw prophet Ibrahim was not a jew or christian, He was around wayy before judaism or christianity

But I'll let you know that even jews believed prophet Abraham broke Idols, not in makkah but elsewhere

According to Gen. R. xxxviii. and Tanna debe Eliyahu, ii. 25 (probably a portion of Pirḳe R. El.), Terah was a manufacturer of idols and had them for sale. One day when Terah was absent and Abraham was left to take charge of the shop, an old, yet vigorous, man came in to buy an idol. Abraham handed him the one on top, and he gave him the price asked. "How old art thou?" Abraham asked. "Seventy years," was the answer. "Thou fool," continued Abraham, "how canst thou adore a god so much younger than thou? Thou wert born seventy years ago and this god was made yesterday." The buyer threw away his idol and received his money back. The other sons of Terah complained to their father that Abraham did not know how to sell the idols, and so Abraham was told to attend to the idols as priest. One day a woman brought a meal-offering for the idols, and, as they would not eat, he exclaimed: "A mouth have they but speak not, eyes but see not, ears but hear not, hands but handle not. May their makers be like them, and all who trust in them" (Ps. cxv. 5-8, Heb.), and he broke them to pieces and burned them. Abraham was brought before Nimrod, who said: "Knowest thou not that I am god and ruler of the world? Why hast thou destroyed my images?" Then Abraham said: "If thou art god and ruler of the world, why dost thou not cause the sun to rise in the west and set in the east? If thou art god and ruler of the world, tell me all that I have now at heart, and what I shall do in the future." Nimrod was dumfounded, and Abraham continued: "Thou art the son of Cush, a mortal like him. Thou couldst not save thy father from death, nor wilt thou thyself escape it." According to Gen. R. xxxviii, Nimrod said: "Worship the fire!" "Why not water that quenches the fire?" asked Abraham. "Very well, worship the water!" "Why not the clouds which swallow the water?" "So be it; worship the clouds!" Then Abraham said: "Rather let me adore the wind which blows the clouds about!" "So be it; pray to the wind!" "But," said Abraham, "man can stand up against the wind or shield himself behind the walls of his house." "Then adore me!" said Nimrod. Thereupon Nimrod (Amraphel; see Pesiḳ. R. § 33, 'Er. 53a) ordered Abraham to be cast into a furnace. He had a pile of wood five yards in circumference set on fire, and Abraham was cast into it. But God Himself went down from heaven to rescue him. Wherefore the Lord appeared to him later, saying: "I am the Lord who brought thee out of the fire of the Chaldeans" (Ur Kasdim, Gen. xv. 7). The legend betrays Persian influence (compare the Zoroaster legend in Windischmann, "Zoroastrische Studien," pp. 307-313). Regarding the cave in which Abraham dwelt, see ib. p. 113; compare also B. B. 10a. The dialogue with Nimrod, pointing from fire, water, the cloud, wind, and man to God, has its parallel in Hindu legend (see Benfey, "Pantschatantra," i. 376).

Abraham is thereupon commissioned by God to propagate His truth

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz0mm4qPQye

So please stop trying to single out muslims, in christianity god commands you to kill everyone including women and children if they worship idols

[Anam 27]

I think you're here to cry about religious freedom, but I'll answer you anyway



When muslims conqured israel we didn't touch the christian churches which were full of idols, so try not to find one example of muslims get rid of idols that were in their place of worhsip

There are plenty of examples historically, but I think the hadith I mentioned satisfies the requirement of one example? It was destruction of a temple comtaining idols in Yemen.


Well Hagia Sophia or this Buddhist University which my new Malay Buddhist acquaintance told me about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

There are quite a few more, but more than historical examples I wanted to know what was sanctioned under Islam. Was destruction of pagan sites ever specifically limited to those two incidents, or was there a general sanction?

[aadil77]

There are plenty of examples historically, but I think the hadith I mentioned satisfies the requirement of one example? It was destruction of a temple comtaining idols in Yemen.


Well Hagia Sophia or this Buddhist University which my new Malay Buddhist acquaintance told me about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

There are quite a few more, but more than historical examples I wanted to know what was sanctioned under Islam. Was destruction of pagan sites ever specifically limited to those two incidents, or was there a general sanction?

Read my post again I've edited to give you examples of how jews and christians destoyed idols as well and how they are more untolerent than muslims about the issue

[Anam 27]

Read my post again I've edited to give you examples of how jews and christians destoyed idols as well and how they are more untolerent than muslims about the issue

Thank you for providing me with those examples aadil. As I have said, I am not a Christian, but an agnostic. I am not Jewish either.

Yes, I have some emotional attachment to Christianity because of the way I was raised, I suspect I would have the same attachment for Islam had I been raised Muslim, my life's circumstances made me feel more kinship for Christianity than Islam.I suspect I would still have been an agnostic had I been raised Muslim.

However, I do not shy away from discussing uncomfortable issues in Christianity either. I have done with with my fundamentalist Christian as well as non religious friends.

Pointing out idol destruction in Judaism is tu quoque logical fallacy, it doesn't answer the question I raised.

Jewish theology might have mentioned idol destruction, they might have done such stuff in history in Israel, but outside that, they have lived in peace & harmony with idolators in Prophet Muhammad's birthplace pre Islam(hadiths & sira show this), in India & China, where they've not attacked local populations, & never been subjected to anti Semitism by Indian Hindu\Buddhists or Chinese Confucians\Taoists\Buddhists.

Regarding Christians, they might have done such things in history, but Jesus, who is the founder of Christianity never did such stuff, nor do I see Christians smashing the Bamiyan Buddhas today.

Respectfully

Anam.

[aadil77]

Jewish theology might have mentioned idol destruction, they might have done such stuff in history in Israel, but outside that, they have lived in peace & harmony with idolators in Prophet Muhammad's birthplace pre Islam(hadiths & sira show this), in India & China, where they've not attacked local populations, & never been subjected to anti Semitism by Indian Hindu\Buddhists or Chinese Confucians\Taoists\Buddhists.

Regarding Christians, they might have done such things in history, but Jesus, who is the founder of Christianity never did such stuff, nor do I see Christians smashing the Bamiyan Buddhas today.

Respectfully

Anam.

Well I've explained everything to you quite clearly. The bhuddas they destroyed was not by the command of the prophet or Allah, so don't associate it with islam.

Again you're snidely suggesting we attacked jews or subjected them to antisemetism, make it clear what you want to say and we'll clear it up.

Just the fact that you're defending christians and jews and refusing to except the answers given to you show that you clearly have something against islam. Its obvious you have an agenda here, you want to promote judaism and christianity as 'peaceful and 'tolerent' religions whilst giving the opposite image of islam, let me show you how tolerent they were.

I don't want to use the examples of christians and jews to justify our selves, but you said that jesus did not do any of those things, let me quote you a few biblical verses

46 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Bring a mob against them and give them over to terror and plunder. 47 The mob will stone them and cut them down with their swords; they will kill their sons and daughters and burn down their houses

"Their children shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes! There houses spoiled, and their wives raped...Dash the young men to pieces...have no pity on the fruit of the womb, the children shall not be spared" -- Isa 13:16-18


Ezekiel 9:5-7 "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. god's wrath on those who were to be punished

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open


You know why those people were killed, simply because they worshipped idols. Thats how intolerent christianity was of idol worship, Jesus commanded the people to kill them. In islam we don't believe the prophet Jesus or Allah would have commanded such behaviour.

Jews have killed and persecuted prophets for ages, don't tell me they lived 'peaceful' with everyone. According to christianity they killed prophet Jesus didn't they? Look at the terrorist state of israel, even though they don't represent true jews, jews fully support the state.

You are sounding more and more like a hypocrite by defending others whilst giving a negative impression of islam

[Chuck]

Well, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, whats' the proof that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) showed the pagans? Concrete proof, not vague claims please. I know that some Muslims claim there're footprints there, were those footprints matched with Ibrahim's?

Also, if the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't the Jews object to the idols there? Ibrahim story is a story of the Jews, but Jews lived in religious peace with the pagans, they even intermarried like Kaab ibn al Ashraf's Jewish mother & pagan father, & the children were raised Jewish as halacha states. Kaab became the leader of a Jewish tribe, pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't see Jews killing pagans or vice versa over the kaaba.

Another thing, even if its true that the kaaba was built by Ibrahim, why didn't Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ask the idolators to remove their idols elsewhere? They could have removed them.

Makkan pagans didn't need any proof, it was not the issue of proof, they knew who built Kaaba. Mecca was started by Abraham (pbuh) through his son (pbuh).

Why would Jews object? They were from another lineage of Abraham (pbuh) and there were no Jews in Mecca. Many of them didn't object in their own lands, so why would they do it for a temple built by another lineage of Abraham. In any case, they may or may not, doesn't make a difference.

And why would Meccan pagan remove the idol, first they put themselves there, they brought a new religion, they liked them there, and it was economically beneficial for them. Second, they were against Islam, they were persecuting muslims. Are you serious?

[Ramadhan]

Jewish theology might have mentioned idol destruction, they might have done such stuff in history in Israel, but outside that, they have lived in peace & harmony with idolators in Prophet Muhammad's birthplace pre Islam(hadiths & sira show this), in India & China, where they've not attacked local populations, & never been subjected to anti Semitism by Indian Hindu\Buddhists or Chinese Confucians\Taoists\Buddhists.

Are you serious?
Of course they would never attack local populations in India and China because their number is like 0.001% of the general population. But look closely at what they CURRENTLY are doing in the Palestine.

Regarding Christians, they might have done such things in history, but Jesus, who is the founder of Christianity never did such stuff, nor do I see Christians smashing the Bamiyan Buddhas today.

but the christians fully support the state of Israel and the destruction of the Palestinians.
I don't have the number, but I would be very curious to know the number of mosques that have been destroyed by the western armies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Chuck]

Are you serious?
Of course they would never attack local populations in India and China because their number is like 0.001% of the general population. But look closely at what they CURRENTLY are doing in the Palestine.



but the christians fully support the state of Israel and the destruction of the Palestinians.
I don't have the number, but I would be very curious to know the number of mosques that have been destroyed by the western armies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You are mixing with something else. In the past when God was sending them prophets (pbut) they were told to go to war and cleanse the land, be the representative of One True God. Some with the stronger faith did and others with weaker faith did not. There are always good and bad, strong of faith and weak of faith.

Currently their are Jews who are against what Israel is doing to Palestinians and others support the aggression which are unfortunately majority. In anycase, this is separate issue compared to the idols/paganism issue.

[Supreme]

Is there a list that details every single pagan idol that was worshipped in the Kaaba? And isn't the Kaaba too small for 360 idols to fit inside?

[aadil77]

Is there a list that details every single pagan idol that was worshipped in the Kaaba? And isn't the Kaaba too small for 360 idols to fit inside?

no, why would there be? its got nothing to do with islam

I think the kaabah is big enough to fit way more

[CosmicPathos]

@ anam: Well first thing first. I think your Muslim father made a huge mistake by marrying a pagan idol-worshipping mom of yours. You gotta respect my view too now.

Regarding Taliban destroying the Buddha sites in Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a Muslim country where these Buddhists are almost non-existent. As such, the locals have every right to do whatever they want to with their country, landmark monuments and resources. From the perspective, whatever Taliban, the controlling authority,did was right. Even if these statues were historical monuments, too bad they were found in a country where the people do not attach historical significance to such filthy ugly idols.

Your professor might very well be pissed off but do I care? Or do we care? No.

And you do not need to hammer away the point that you are agnostic. We know that you dont believe in Allah. And by Allah, nothing happens without Allah's will and it was Allah's will to misguide you. and may Allah protect us from the outcome you've had.

Best of luck.

[CosmicPathos]

@ anam: What proof do you have that before your grand ma put that stupid "baby Jesus" idol in her house, it was not a mosque?

Regarding Muhammad pbuh destroying the idols in Kaaba, he destroyed them when he had become a leader of Makkah. He destroyed idols when almost no-one in Makkah wanted to worship these idols. He destroyed these idols when almost everyone had converted to Islam and wanted to get rid of this filth as quickly as they could. That is why all people gathered around kaaba and watched Muhammad pbuh destroying those filthy idols without resisting! Makkans were known to fight for their ancestral legacy so if they really wanted these idols, why wont they fight with Muhammad pbuh at this point? The fact that these very ex-pagans wanted to get rid of these kaabas shows that your argument is invalid. You can feel sadness for the pagans whose idols were destroyed but the reality is that those very pagans did not want anything to do with these idols anymore! So it makes your argument of little, if any, worth.

[Supreme]

no, why would there be? its got nothing to do with islam

True, although it would substantiate and add a further layer of historical validity to the story of 360 idols being destroyed.

I think the kaabah is big enough to fit way more

I'm not talking about the idols themselves; how are you possibly going to fit numerous pagans, each with their own idol (and there are 360 of them), worshipping simultaneously? It would be cramped at best, impossible at worst.

[aadil77]

True, although it would substantiate and add a further layer of historical validity to the story of 360 idols being destroyed.



I'm not talking about the idols themselves; how are you possibly going to fit numerous pagans, each with their own idol (and there are 360 of them), worshipping simultaneously? It would be cramped at best, impossible at worst.

no they wouldcome with their idols and place them in the kaabah as part of a collection, I doubt they would go inside to worship thim

also I don't see why muslims would want to lie about destroying idols, you'd expect to people to accept anything that can show islam in a negative light

at the time there were three most famous idols uzza, laat and manat, you can read about them here if you're interested http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/al-uzza.html

[Supreme]

no they wouldcome with their idols and place them in the kaabah as part of a collection, I doubt they would go inside to worship thim

also I don't see why muslims would want to lie about destroying idols, you'd expect to people to accept anything that can show islam in a negative light

at the time there were three most famous idols uzza, laat and manat, you can read about them here if you're interested http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/al-uzza.html

So, what would be the point in using the Kaaba for idols if you weren't going to worship them?

I didn't say Muslims lied about the idols- I said that, as with an historic event that ever happened, the more details we know about it, the more reliable the event is.

Thank you for the link.

[aadil77]

So, what would be the point in using the Kaaba for idols if you weren't going to worship them?

I didn't say Muslims lied about the idols- I said that, as with an historic event that ever happened, the more details we know about it, the more reliable the event is.

Thank you for the link.

they probably did worship them there, I don't no much about the pagan arabs to be honest

but just to let you know I think the kaabah was like a showcase for the best idols, people from around arabia would come makkah to show off their idols on special festivals, I think afterwards they'd place them inside the kaabah

[DancesWithChair]

...which causes Muslims like the Taliban to destroy Bamiyan Buddhas.

Muslims tell us that Muhammad (pbuh) said that the people were not permitted to make a statue of him. His concern is that they would worship the statue instead of worshipping god.

Its exactly the same with idols.

throughout the quran we are told of the torment for those who are idolaters and those who associate partners with Allah,

And so it is the Taliban destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas because they are statues.

`

[جوري]

And so it is the Taliban destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas because they are statues.

`

They destroyed them because they needed aid for their dying children who are being killed round the clock in 'oops' moments by foreign invaders, but instead hyper-vigilant teams with funny agendas and some money come bringing 'aid' to restore useless statues in lieu of humanitarian efforts .. if the taliban wanted to destroy the statues before they would have.. a question should arise, why should statues that were there for a considerable period of time be destroyed that particular day and not before, once that question is answered perhaps, folks would whine less about statues and pay more attention to live human beings in need of restoration instead of faces carved out of stone. But I am pretty sure the 800+ afghani kids that have died so far are negligible in the face of a butter Buddha!

the OP is just a silly broad and there is no shortage of them.. they're imbued with distrust, hatred and western propagandist bull poop and fancy themselves so progressive!

[titus]

They destroyed them because they needed aid for their dying children

Umm, no.

How much aid did they get for destroying the statues? That's right - None.

So a group asks permission from the Taliban to fix up the statues. The Taliban says no, give the money to us for aid. The group says no, so you argue that gives the Taliban the right to destroy the statues? Seriously?

why should statues that were there for a considerable period of time be destroyed that particular day and not before

It actually took them a long time to destroy the statues. Weeks in fact. I wonder how many children they could have fed with the money they spent on the weapons and dynamite they used on the statues?

The truth is that the Taliban admitted, more than once, that they destroyed the statues because they were idols and felt it was their duty as good Muslims.

[titus]

From the perspective, whatever Taliban, the controlling authority,did was right. Even if these statues were historical monuments, too bad they were found in a country where the people do not attach historical significance to such filthy ugly idols.

Flawed logic.

Using that logic if I was in an area with hardly any Muslims it would be ok for me to throw a bunch of Qurans down the toilet? Or maybe make some cartoons about Muhammad?

[جوري]

Umm, no.

umm enroll in some course so you can write in proper terms?! or do you have some sort of a tick which we are to accommodate?

How much aid did they get for destroying the statues? That's right - None.

and the point being?

So a group asks permission from the Taliban to fix up the statues. The Taliban says no, give the money to us for aid. The group says no, so you argue that gives the Taliban the right to destroy the statues? Seriously?

Yeah seriously, it is their property and on their turf, they are allowed to do whatever the hell they please!

It actually took them a long time to destroy the statues. Weeks in fact. I wonder how many children they could have fed with the money they spent on the weapons and dynamite they used on the statues?

oh weeks is really phenomenal in the face of how long and why!
you should write a letter to your local politicians asking them to give up their weapons for wreaths of flowers and food for the young.. I am not sure why you are wasting your time here and much worse mine?

The truth is that the Taliban admitted, more than once, that they destroyed the statues because they were idols and felt it was their duty as good Muslims.

The Taliban have already stated their reasons for destroying the statues, feel free to listen to their interviews which were posted somewhere on this forum, before passing your micturate on yet another thread where you felt your pearls would be really appreciated!

[جوري]

Flawed logic.

Using that logic if I was in an area with hardly any Muslims it would be ok for me to throw a bunch of Qurans down the toilet? Or maybe make some cartoons about Muhammad?

Nothing in fact is prohibiting westerners and other like minded turds from doing exactly that under some ridiculous banner of 'freedom of speech' or whatever else, or are you a hypocrite? At least they had an actual reason to do it, what is the reason for drawing cartoons, passing falsehood and lies against Islam and disrespecting the Quran?

funny guy!

[titus]

and the point being?

The point being that aid money had nothing to do with it. Destroying the statues did not help any children, so the Taliban's attempt to spin doctor the situation to claim it was is baloney.

Yeah seriously, it is their property and on their turf, they are allowed to do whatever the hell they please!

I don't think anyone claimed it was illegal. Yes, it was on their turf so they had the legal right to destroy them.

Now, when it comes to moral right I don't think so. The statues were doing no harm whatsoever. They were destroyed out of spite and hatred of another religion, pure and simple.

The Taliban have already stated their reasons for destroying the statues

Yes, they have. Because they were mad.

Did you know that some museums offered to buy the statues, and that the government could have used that money for the children, but that the government turned them down?

[جوري]

by the way I am curious as to all that sympathy when americans were looting Iraqi cultural heritage?

Agence France-Presse
December 8, 2008 Fragments of bricks, engraved with cuneiform characters thousands of years old, lie mixed with the rubble and sandbags left by the US military on the ancient site of Babylon in Iraq. In this place, one of the cradles of civilisation, US troops in 2003-2004 built embankments, dug ditches and spread gravel to hold the fuel reservoirs needed to supply the heliport of Camp Alpha. Today, archaeologists say a year of terracing work and 18 months of military presence, with tanks and helicopters, have caused irreparable damage. The Americans remained five months in Babylon and then handed over to the Poles who pulled out 16 months later. Hands on hips, and wearing a seemingly permanent air of dismay, Maithem Hamza, director of the - totally empty - museum on the site, points to the soil: "Look at this land, it is packed with remnants. They filled their bags with them."

http://www.brusselstribunal.org/looting.htm

or is your sympathy and isnta google smarts linear in progression?

[titus]

Nothing in fact is prohibiting westerners and other like minded turds from doing exactly that under some ridiculous banner of 'freedom of speech' or whatever else, or are you a hypocrite? At least they had an actual reason to do it, what is the reason for drawing cartoons, passing falsehood and lies against Islam and disrespecting the Quran?

Exactly my point. Just because they have the ability to do it does not make it right.

And again, their actual reason for doing it was out of spite.

[جوري]

The point being that aid money had nothing to do with it. Destroying the statues did not help any children, so the Taliban's attempt to spin doctor the situation to claim it was is baloney.

The point was made when they destroyed the statues, it is obviously not something I expect you to pick up on~!

I don't think anyone claimed it was illegal. Yes, it was on their turf so they had the legal right to destroy them.

Great.. let's hope you are equally concerned about the Babylonian monuments of Iraq looted by Americans

Now, when it comes to moral right I don't think so. The statues were doing no harm whatsoever. They were destroyed out of spite and hatred of another religion, pure and simple.

only a simpleton can draw satisfaction from overly trivialized warfare situations, I had no better expectations from you in fact, why you have this endless desire to share this inane mindless drivel with the rest of us is beyond me? Isn't there the bumpkin's rustic ways forum you'd be better suited for?

Yes, they have. Because they were mad.

A hearing impediment on top of all else..

Did you know that some museums offered to buy the statues, and that the government could have used that money for the children, but that the government turned them down?

wow buying statues is indeed better than how western museums acquired most of their oriental treasures.. let me know how you feel once you find out about how Egyptian monuments made it to foreign museums and what were done to the mummies from fuel for train to eternal youth creams to haggardly western shrews!

[جوري]

Exactly my point. Just because they have the ability to do it does not make it right.

Oh good, I expect your voice of reason then to change things around in your neck of the woods!

And again, their actual reason for doing it was out of spite.

sure, whatever you say!

[titus]

by the way I am curious as to all that sympathy when americans were looting Iraqi cultural heritage?

or is your sympathy and isnta google smarts linear in progression?

I have spoken out to people I know about this, but not on this forum. I think it is extremely wrong, and any soldiers found with such artifacts should be prosecuted fully. The vast majority of the looting was done by Iraqis, though, and much has already been recovered by UN and American forces.

I have a deep love for History, in fact I have my degree in History, and any time historical artifacts, especially ones as important and old as these, are lost, stolen or destroyed it makes me extremely upset.

If you had asked me about it at the time I would have been more than happy to tell you.

[titus]

wow buying statues is indeed better than how western museums acquired most of their oriental treasures.. let me know how you feel once you find out about how Egyptian monuments made it to foreign museums and what were done to the mummies from fuel for train to eternal youth creams to haggardly western shrews!

You did not answer the question. You danced around it and tried to change the subject.

While you are making excuses for the Taliban destroying the statues, saying it was to help the children, then why can you not answer why the Taliban refused money for the statues that they could have spent on the children? And how much money did they spend on the munitions used to destroy the statues that could have been spent on the children?

The obvious answer is their hatred and spite was more important to them than the children.

[aadil77]

You did not answer the question. You danced around it and tried to change the subject.

While you are making excuses for the Taliban destroying the statues, saying it was to help the children, then why can you not answer why the Taliban refused money for the statues that they could have spent on the children? And how much money did they spend on the munitions used to destroy the statues that could have been spent on the children?

The obvious answer is their hatred and spite was more important to them than the children.

Don't judge their intentions, watch this interview by a guy from the taliban - he explains it all http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...re-9-11-a.html

and what money for the statues? would it feed a whole country? its an insult to find foreigners coming to your country to renovate idols yet ignore dying children, those people should have protested to their govts, the same govts that place economic sanctions that place everyone in poverty and starve children

[titus]

Don't judge their intentions, watch this interview by a guy from the taliban - he explains it all

I listened to the part where he talks about the statues. He basically said the same thing that has been said before, that they destroyed them because they were upset that some Western group wanted to restore them. He said the people were angry.

In other words these religious symbols and historical artifacts were destroyed out of spite and anger.

and what money for the statues? would it feed a whole country?

Even if it could only feed one child wouldn't it have been better than spending all that money to destroy the statues?

And do not doubt that it would have been enough money to feed much more than one child. They decided it was more important to destroy the statues than to feed their children.

[جوري]

I have spoken out to people I know about this, but not on this forum. I think it is extremely wrong, and any soldiers found with such artifacts should be prosecuted fully. The vast majority of the looting was done by Iraqis, though, and much has already been recovered by UN and American forces.

1- :lol: your speaking out is really remarkable.. it has done wonders to the treasures of the birth place of civilixation..
2- Having them removed by the thieves who have originally looted them is really going to help matters alot.. the same way all matters are helped by the presence of foreign forces there!

I have a deep love for History, in fact I have my degree in History, and any time historical artifacts, especially ones as important and old as these, are lost, stolen or destroyed it makes me extremely upset.

Thanks for that, little tid bits about your life are so meaningful!

If you had asked me about it at the time I would have been more than happy to tell you.

No thanks, we are quite familiar with your all too sophomoric platitudes about any subjects!

You did not answer the question. You danced around it and tried to change the subject.

There are no questions to answer!

While you are making excuses for the Taliban destroying the statues, saying it was to help the children, then why can you not answer why the Taliban refused money for the statues that they could have spent on the children? And how much money did they spend on the munitions used to destroy the statues that could have been spent on the children?

I never said it was to 'help the children' I said they requested that aid meant to repair the statues for more humanitarian and more pressing issues, the team refused.. the taliban simply showed them where their priorities ought to me in a cut throat move.. there is no time for artistry during war--

The obvious answer is their hatred and spite was more important to them than the children.

The obvious answer is always the level of ignorance displayed by westerners is overwhelming, boring and frankly down right disgusting!

[titus]

1- your speaking out is really remarkable.. it has done wonders to the treasures of the birth place of civilixation..

Yes, about as much as yours has.

Thanks for that, little tid bits about your life are so meaningful!

You asked me my feelings about the situation. I told you. Now you seem upset that I answered.

Funny thing is that if I had said I didn't care then you would have been upset also.

No thanks, we are quite familiar with your all too sophomoric platitudes about any subjects!

And yours, as exemplified by this post, are the epitome of maturity.

The obvious answer is always the level of ignorance displayed by westerners is overwhelming, boring and frankly down right disgusting!

Yes, how ignorant to want to restore an historical artifact. It is much more enlightening to destroy it, while at the same time turning down money to feed your children.

Please save me from such "enlightenment".

[جوري]

Yes, about as much as yours has.

We are not here to discuss feelings, you can pay a psychiatrist for that!

You asked me my feelings about the situation. I told you. Now you seem upset that I answered.

It was in rhetoric, I wasn't looking for a response, rather used to highlight your hypocrisy and frank ignorance!

Funny thing is that if I had said I didn't care then you would have been upset also.

I don't invest myself emotionally in random forumers.. further I don't see how your feelings would help any matters any?

And yours, as exemplified by this post, are the epitome of maturity.

Indeed!

Yes, how ignorant to want to restore an historical artifact. It is much more enlightening to destroy it, while at the same time turning down money to feed your children.

Money in the hands of corrupt afghan puppet govt. hardly reaches children as evidenced by their mortality rate.. as stated previously, generally a superficial westerner is the last person to give an opinion or 'share a feeling' on affairs that don't concern them.

Please save me from such "enlightenment".

Stay out of the thread and cavort in your ignorance elsewhere then!

all the best

[CosmicPathos]

titus is once again on the loose .... with his quackery and magical arguments.

[titus]

It was in rhetoric, I wasn't looking for a response, rather used to highlight your hypocrisy and frank ignorance!

I am consistent. You are the one showing indignation at the looting in Iraq then turning around and praising the destruction of the Buddhist statues. If there is anyone being a hypocrite here it is not me.

Money in the hands of corrupt afghan puppet govt. hardly reaches children as evidenced by their mortality rate.

The offer was made at the time the Taliban was in power. The same group that you are defending refused money to help feed their children.

titus is once again on the loose .... with his quackery and magical arguments.

And once again I am met with insults instead of rational answers.

[جوري]

I am consistent. You are the one showing indignation at the looting in Iraq then turning around and praising the destruction of the Buddhist statues. If there is anyone being a hypocrite here it is not me.

You are far from consistent and had that been the case then we would have seen an outcry from you over far more ****ing acts committed by your kin and further adding insult to injury by persisting in folly as if to say silly meaningless statues which can be destroyed in an instant by a mere earth quake or tsunami and with no respite from the muted statues to defend themselves against the mere forces of nature or save their idolaters from heartbreak more pressing in preservation than human life!

The offer was made at the time the Taliban was in power. The same group that you are defending refused money to help feed their children.

That is B.S.. further money wasted on statues all together is ludicrous.. you have any sum to throw around then you need to prioritize.. do you go purchasing makeup for your face before you've put dinner on every hungry plate (within your household) try to use that analogy when thinking of 16000 children that die from hunger every day whether in Afghanistan or more 'deserving' places by your standards when obsessing over ancillary needs!

And once again I am met with insults instead of rational answers.

There is no common ground for rationality to be in question. I don't even consider any form of conversation with you to be par with common sense whatsoever even if said comment was directed at someone else.. you should really ponder why more than one individual views you in a similar light!

all the best

[titus]

silly meaningless statues which can be destroyed in an instant by a mere earth quake or tsunami and with no respite from the muted statues to defend themselves against the mere forces of nature or save their idolaters from heartbreak more pressing in preservation than human life!

The Taliban, which you are defending, thought it was more important to destroy these statues than to feed their own children.

If you want to be upset at someone then be upset at them.

do you go purchasing makeup for your face before you've put dinner on every hungry plate (within your household) try to use that analogy when thinking of 16000 children that die from hunger every day whether in Afghanistan or more 'deserving' places by your standards when obsessing over ancillary needs!

If your children are starving would you turn down an offer to buy some meaningless statues that you own, or would you continue to let the children starve while you destroy the valuable statues out of spite?

If you choose to destroy the statues then you obviously don't care about your children.

Speaking of ancillary needs, how much did the computer you are using cost? And your education? Do you own a nice television or car or house? So please stop the silly argument that if you have extra money and don't give it to starving children you are evil or uncaring.

There is no common ground for rationality to be in question.

True, since you have yet to give me a rational answer for why the Taliban would destroy the statues. You say it is because they wanted their children fed, yet they refused money for the statues they could have used for the children, which any rational person can see refutes that excuse.

[جوري]

The Taliban, which you are defending, thought it was more important to destroy these statues than to feed their own children.

your spin on the truth doesn't hold water.. there is no room for hearsay when we've heard it from the horse's mouth!

If you want to be upset at someone then be upset at them.

In fact I am proud of what they have done!

If your children are starving would you turn down an offer to buy some meaningless statues that you own, or would you continue to let the children starve while you destroy the valuable statues out of spite?

No one has offered them aid instead they offered it to restore statues perhaps if you would listen attentively without your own additives and preservatives you'd have understood that, if there were aid coming in, then the kids won't be dead, now would they?

If you choose to destroy the statues then you obviously don't care about your children.

Like I stated before and so we are not moving in a circular fashion, you are one to draw satisfaction from overly simplistic conclusions...It is almost insulting to read and engage this level of pedantry (even if I could call it that)

Speaking of ancillary needs, how much did the computer you are using cost? And your education? Do you own a nice television or car or house? So please stop the silly argument that if you have extra money and don't give it to starving children you are evil or uncaring.

You don't know how I spend my money, at least the other half of it that isn't wasted on taxes funding uncle sam's wars, as such you shouldn't gauge in topics that are clearly over your head!

True, since you have yet to give me a rational answer for why the Taliban would destroy the statues. You say it is because they wanted their children fed, yet they refused money for the statues they could have used for the children, which any rational person can see refutes that excuse.

lol.. who the hell are you for anyone to give you an answer rational or not? a little gadfly who sees fit to ingratiate himself in a topic where is he is clearly uneducated and unclear about the events and the subject matter?

I wish you'd simply buzz off and find yourself a nice islamophobic forum as you have earlier suggested the justification an enjoy yourself with like minded individuals!


I am done here!

[CosmicPathos]

I am consistent. You are the one showing indignation at the looting in Iraq then turning around and praising the destruction of the Buddhist statues. If there is anyone being a hypocrite here it is not me.



The offer was made at the time the Taliban was in power. The same group that you are defending refused money to help feed their children.



And once again I am met with insults instead of rational answers.

The truth is that there are no rational answers to irrational questions.

[espada]

Is this even serious?

Why would Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) the Messenger of Allah (SWT), Al-Ahad, destroy the idols of polytheism that were inside the Kaaba?

And another thing, i found it pretty amusing how attached that some "Buddhists" can be towards Earthly things such as statues.

[titus]

nd another thing, i found it pretty amusing how attached that some "Buddhists" can be towards Earthly things such as statues.

You may find it funny, but what if someone attempted to deface the Kaaba? What about the desecration of Masjids? Is it amusing that Muslims are upset about suggestions to move the Dome of the Rock? As a Muslim do you not hold copies of the Quran so important that you have rules as to how to care for them?

Many religions have objects that they hold dear and Islam is no exception.

[جوري]

Does anyone else see a relation from which to draw a simile between idol statues and a place a worship (which we are actually informed will be destroyed at some point)?

Not only is religion alive in the heart so that no place can compass God save the heart of the believer (as per hadith Qudsui), but a basic principal of Buddhists is to 'rise above' worldly possessions.. as such again why such emphasis on idol statues?
Things have become so jaded for some that they are unable to distinguish falsehood!

[titus]

Does anyone else see a relation from which to draw a simile between idol statues and a place a worship

Yes. Espada mentioned relions and their attachment to earthly things.

If someone attempted to destroy the Dome of the Rock, for example, Muslims would react strongly.

In fact, they would probably not be near as nice about it as the Buddhists.

[جوري]

It wouldn't matter if they destroyed the dome of the rock, they are already destroying Al-Aqsa, the dome is no dearer than Al-Aqsa..and secondly if the dome of the rock were on foreign soil belonging to a sovereign nation which I am not only invading but making sure its civilians die then frankly destroying the dome would be the least expected..

You constantly fail and on many levels.. one wonders who taught you basic logic albeit something that should be innate and completely elusive to you!

Espada merely mentioned the paradox of Buddhists tenets to their whining over Buddha statues which btw in their own festivals they create out of butter and then later eat..

Why are you even arguing? your reason or lack thereof has been annihilated a thousand times over and with such minor effort!

[titus]

It wouldn't matter if they destroyed the dome of the rock

While it wouldn't matter to you it would matter to tens of millions of other Muslims. Would you call all of them superficial?

But then I think you say one thing when you mean another. I think that if Isreal were to destroy the Dome of the Rock or Al Aqsa you would be on these forums in a heartbeat condemning it. You most certainly would not be standing for the right of Isreal to do it like you have for the Taliban.

Espada merely mentioned the paradox of Buddhists tenets to their whining over Buddha statues which btw in their own festivals they create out of butter and then later eat..

Muslims are also taught not to value earthly possessions. So does this paradox exist for both religions?

Why are you even arguing? your reason or lack thereof has been annihilated a thousand times over and with such minor effort!

I have used reason and facts. You have used insults. I think this shows the shaky ground you walk on with this topic.

You say the Taliban wanted to help the children, yet refuse to answer why they refused money for the statues or answer why they decided to spend the money on demolition when they could have used that money also for the children. Ignoring a question and insulting me is completely different than "annihilating" my intelligence.

Even if you accept the argument that the Taliban had the right to be angry, why take it out on these statues which were important to Buddhist around the world? It was not all these Buddhists that offended the Taliban by wanting to restore the statues. The actions of the Taliban were the moral equivalent of burning down a Masjid because someone who went there was arrested for theft.

[جوري]

While it wouldn't matter to you it would matter to tens of millions of other Muslims. Would you call all of them superficial?

Do you just makeup crap as you go along for the sake of saving face?

But then I think you say one thing when you mean another. I think that if Isreal were to destroy the Dome of the Rock or Al Aqsa you would be on these forums in a heartbeat condemning it. You most certainly would not be standing for the right of Isreal to do it like you have for the Taliban.

• Excavations Under and Around Al Aqsa Mosque

Since March, 1968, the Israeli authorities have engaged a Jewish archaeological team for excavations under, and around, Al Aqsa Mosque with the object of finding traces of the Jewish Temple. They introduced in the Haram Al-Sherif (Noble Sanctuary) area large digging and earth-moving equipment and made excavations in many parts of the sacred area. They dug tunnels beneath the foundations of Al Aqsa Mosque.
On September 8, 1981, Ambassador Hazem Nusseibeh of Jordan, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, sent a letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations regarding the continued Israeli excavations and the claims of finds announced on August 25, 1981. In the letter he said that “the latest clandestine Israeli descriptions have reached a stage where the Al Aqsa Mosque is presently in danger of total collapse. The Mufti of Jerusalem…has described these dangerous diggings as blatant desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque.”
The destruction or collapse of the 1,350-year-old Mosque would constitute a crime against humanity and the historic landmarks preserved under UNESCO. “The collapse of this holy sanctuary would be nothing less than a cultural, political and spiritual genocide against this legacy and its innermost and immortal soul,” the letter said.
Dr. Nusseibeh sent attached documents with the letter which was circulated as an official document of the General Assembly and Security Council.
These included:
Chronology of the most important occupation attempts

1. First phase: Extensive diggings were carried out on an area of 70 square meters under the southern wall of the Al-Aqsa Mosque (1967-1968)
2. Second phase: In 1969, the diggings exceeded an area of 80 square meters adjacent to the wall of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. These ongoing diggings caused a serious undermining of the adjacent building. Subsequently, the entire Magharbah quarter was demolished
3. Third phase: The diggings in 1970 resulted in serious cracks in the foundations of the Ottoman Mosque (Ribat Al-Kurd), and the Jawhiriya School
4. Fourth phase: Diggings (1972-1974) behind the wall of Al Aqsa Mosque and extending across the southern wall of the Mosque and under the Mihrab pulpit and beneath the Mosque of Omar
5. Fifth phase: The diggings in the middle of the eastern side of the wall near the Golden Gate, where those diggings inflicted extensive damage upon an ancient Islamic cemetery near the site
6. Sixth phase: An expansion of the area of the Wailing Wall designed to destroy all the buildings in the area surrounding the Wailing Wall. An Israeli Ministerial Committee endorsed in 1977 the implementation of this plan, which includes the demolition of several Islamic historic buildings, including the Old Islamic Shari’s Court, the Tankinazia School, the Khalidiya Library, a charitable Zawiya (corner) and the Abu-Midian ancient Mosque
7. Seventh phase: The most ominous and menacing of these continuous diggings started when the occupation authorities declared on August, 27 1981 that they had discovered a tunnel beneath the Wailing Wall and the holy Dome of the Rock, which extends through these and beneath the foundations of Al Aqsa Mosque. The occupation authorities alleged that this tunnel had been discovered a month before the discovery was announced. But that the announcement had been withheld and kept secret after informing the two Chief Rabbis of Israel as well as the Minister of Religious Affairs and the Defense Minister

The Israeli officials visited the area and requested that the matter remained shrouded in secrecy. However, the news reached the world media which compelled the Ministry of education to stop the diggings and to close the tunnel in order to avoid far-reaching Islamic reactions.
However, the diggings did not in fact stop and were resumed when the Israeli Supreme Court issued a decision on 4 September which revoked the decision of the Minister of Education and permitted a resumption and completion of the diggings, which were resumed on 6 September.


http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/...st_islam/6.htm

Not sure which is pressing now getting Aid for Gaza or worrying about Al-Aqsa .. neither which is actually comparable to idol statues!

Muslims are also taught not to value earthly possessions. So does this paradox exist for both religions?

What possessions are those? or do you expect me to carry on your faulty premise?

I have used reason and facts. You have used insults. I think this shows the shaky ground you walk on with this topic.

You have offered no reason, no logic and no common sense, and have no idea what you are talking about.. what you are capable of however is endless drivel!

and I have no reason to read anymore.. not only do I not enjoy circuitousness but your are so ailing on multiple levels that it is clearly a waste of my time!

[جوري]

While it wouldn't matter to you it would matter to tens of millions of other Muslims. Would you call all of them superficial?

Do you just makeup crap as you go along for the sake of saving face?

But then I think you say one thing when you mean another. I think that if Isreal were to destroy the Dome of the Rock or Al Aqsa you would be on these forums in a heartbeat condemning it. You most certainly would not be standing for the right of Isreal to do it like you have for the Taliban.

• Excavations Under and Around Al Aqsa Mosque

Since March, 1968, the Israeli authorities have engaged a Jewish archaeological team for excavations under, and around, Al Aqsa Mosque with the object of finding traces of the Jewish Temple. They introduced in the Haram Al-Sherif (Noble Sanctuary) area large digging and earth-moving equipment and made excavations in many parts of the sacred area. They dug tunnels beneath the foundations of Al Aqsa Mosque.
On September 8, 1981, Ambassador Hazem Nusseibeh of Jordan, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, sent a letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations regarding the continued Israeli excavations and the claims of finds announced on August 25, 1981. In the letter he said that “the latest clandestine Israeli descriptions have reached a stage where the Al Aqsa Mosque is presently in danger of total collapse. The Mufti of Jerusalem…has described these dangerous diggings as blatant desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque.”
The destruction or collapse of the 1,350-year-old Mosque would constitute a crime against humanity and the historic landmarks preserved under UNESCO. “The collapse of this holy sanctuary would be nothing less than a cultural, political and spiritual genocide against this legacy and its innermost and immortal soul,” the letter said.
Dr. Nusseibeh sent attached documents with the letter which was circulated as an official document of the General Assembly and Security Council.
These included:
Chronology of the most important occupation attempts

1. First phase: Extensive diggings were carried out on an area of 70 square meters under the southern wall of the Al-Aqsa Mosque (1967-1968)
2. Second phase: In 1969, the diggings exceeded an area of 80 square meters adjacent to the wall of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. These ongoing diggings caused a serious undermining of the adjacent building. Subsequently, the entire Magharbah quarter was demolished
3. Third phase: The diggings in 1970 resulted in serious cracks in the foundations of the Ottoman Mosque (Ribat Al-Kurd), and the Jawhiriya School
4. Fourth phase: Diggings (1972-1974) behind the wall of Al Aqsa Mosque and extending across the southern wall of the Mosque and under the Mihrab pulpit and beneath the Mosque of Omar
5. Fifth phase: The diggings in the middle of the eastern side of the wall near the Golden Gate, where those diggings inflicted extensive damage upon an ancient Islamic cemetery near the site
6. Sixth phase: An expansion of the area of the Wailing Wall designed to destroy all the buildings in the area surrounding the Wailing Wall. An Israeli Ministerial Committee endorsed in 1977 the implementation of this plan, which includes the demolition of several Islamic historic buildings, including the Old Islamic Shari’s Court, the Tankinazia School, the Khalidiya Library, a charitable Zawiya (corner) and the Abu-Midian ancient Mosque
7. Seventh phase: The most ominous and menacing of these continuous diggings started when the occupation authorities declared on August, 27 1981 that they had discovered a tunnel beneath the Wailing Wall and the holy Dome of the Rock, which extends through these and beneath the foundations of Al Aqsa Mosque. The occupation authorities alleged that this tunnel had been discovered a month before the discovery was announced. But that the announcement had been withheld and kept secret after informing the two Chief Rabbis of Israel as well as the Minister of Religious Affairs and the Defense Minister

The Israeli officials visited the area and requested that the matter remained shrouded in secrecy. However, the news reached the world media which compelled the Ministry of education to stop the diggings and to close the tunnel in order to avoid far-reaching Islamic reactions.
However, the diggings did not in fact stop and were resumed when the Israeli Supreme Court issued a decision on 4 September which revoked the decision of the Minister of Education and permitted a resumption and completion of the diggings, which were resumed on 6 September.


http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/...st_islam/6.htm

Not sure which is pressing now getting Aid for Gaza or worrying about Al-Aqsa .. neither which is actually comparable to idol statues!

Muslims are also taught not to value earthly possessions. So does this paradox exist for both religions?

What possessions are those? or do you expect me to carry on your faulty premise?

I have used reason and facts. You have used insults. I think this shows the shaky ground you walk on with this topic.

You have offered no reason, no logic and no common sense, and have no idea what you are talking about.. what you are capable of however is endless drivel!

and I have no reason to read anymore.. not only do I not enjoy circuitousness but your are so ailing on multiple levels that it is clearly a waste of my time!

[CosmicPathos]

Titus, your lunacy has made this threat entertaining.

[titus]

Not sure which is pressing now getting Aid for Gaza or worrying about Al-Aqsa .. neither which is actually comparable to idol statues!

You cannot comprehend the analogy between two religions and two physical items they hold dear?

and I have no reason to read anymore..

You refuse to answer the next part because you have no answer for it. It exposes the weakness of your argument and it exposes the Taliban as liars.

Let me repeat it for you.

You say the Taliban wanted to help the children, yet refuse to answer why they refused money for the statues or answer why they decided to spend the money on demolition when they could have used that money also for the children. Ignoring a question and insulting me is completely different than "annihilating" my intelligence.

Even if you accept the argument that the Taliban had the right to be angry, why take it out on these statues which were important to Buddhist around the world? It was not all these Buddhists that offended the Taliban by wanting to restore the statues. The actions of the Taliban were the moral equivalent of burning down a Masjid because someone who went there was arrested for theft.

[جوري]

You cannot comprehend the analogy between two religions and two physical items they hold dear?

I guess because the rest of us have outgrown the Pre-operational stage, good luck catching up!

You refuse to answer the next part because you have no answer for it. It exposes the weakness of your argument and it exposes the Taliban as liars.

Let me repeat it for you.

You say the Taliban wanted to help the children, yet refuse to answer why they refused money for the statues or answer why they decided to spend the money on demolition when they could have used that money also for the children. Ignoring a question and insulting me is completely different than "annihilating" my intelligence.

Even if you accept the argument that the Taliban had the right to be angry, why take it out on these statues which were important to Buddhist around the world? It was not all these Buddhists that offended the Taliban by wanting to restore the statues. The actions of the Taliban were the moral equivalent of burning down a Masjid because someone who went there was arrested for theft.

There is nothing to answer you twit.. it is easy to take weapons off captured twits not unlike yourself and use them, either way bombs aren't difficult to make of the natural resources found in their country, those are the two means they can have weapons with all the sanctions imposed on them.. Isn't it amazing how the British army has been complaining.. I guess silly twits can only cry to their mama that their pants have zippers that make noise.. :haha:

The British Army overwhelmed by Afghan warriors - in 1842. So can we learn the lessons of history before it happens again?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ens-again.html


.. or have you no abstract thoughts?..

I am so amused by how you come back for more.. go enroll in some course where they teach you calisthenics with logic before you juggle meaningless words-

all the best

[espada]

You may find it funny, but what if someone attempted to deface the Kaaba? What about the desecration of Masjids? Is it amusing that Muslims are upset about suggestions to move the Dome of the Rock? As a Muslim do you not hold copies of the Quran so important that you have rules as to how to care for them?

Well yeah i'd be mad. But the thing is, i'm not a Buddhist. And i pray to Allah, i don't worship the Kaaba.

So even if it and all the masjids in the world were destroyed, i'd still pray to Allah.

In addition, part of being a muslim is believing in the pre-destination of things both good and evil. So if and when these things were to happen that would be the will of Allah and who am i to question that.

Espada merely mentioned the paradox of Buddhists tenets to their whining over Buddha statues which btw in their own festivals they create out of butter and then later eat..

Basically yes, although whining is rather harsh.


This is from Wikipedia:

According to the impermanence doctrine, human life embodies this flux in the aging process, the cycle of rebirth (saṃsāra), and in any experience of loss. The doctrine asserts that because things are impermanent, attachment to them is futile and leads to suffering (dukkha).

That is basic doctrine of Buddhism.




And here is something that nobody cares to think about and until today i didn't realize. Perhaps there was good in the destruction of the statues:

Earliest Oil Paintings Discovered
22 April 2008 ET

Oil paintings have been found in caves behind the two ancient colossal Buddha statues destroyed in 2001 by the Taliban, suggesting that Asians — not Europeans — were the first to invent oil painting.

Many people worldwide were in shock when the Taliban destroyed the Buddha statues in the Afghan region of Bamiyan.

Behind those statues are caves decorated with paintings from the fifth to ninth centuries...

Source

[espada]

OK, sorry back to the OP. Obviously none of you can give you the reasons the Allah would do anything.

But take a look at this picture and think for a second:

Mecca was a pretty unknown place in the desert all those years ago. In exchange for 360 idols within the Kaaba, strictly for some locals, it was replaced with what?

Millions of people, from all 360 degrees of the globe ... different colors, economic status, ages, etc.

There to worship and serve, the One - Allah!

Is this not further proof or what?

Those 360 idols couldn't do anything, to protect themselves or their "believers"!

[titus]

Well yeah i'd be mad. But the thing is, i'm not a Buddhist. And i pray to Allah, i don't worship the Kaaba.

So even if it and all the masjids in the world were destroyed, i'd still pray to Allah.

Yes, you and other Muslims would be mad, and you would have every right to be mad. It is wrong to treat object sacred to other religions with such malice and disregard.

You would still pray to Allah, and the Buddhists are still Buddhists. That still does not make the destruction of the statues morally right.

In addition, part of being a muslim is believing in the pre-destination of things both good and evil. So if and when these things were to happen that would be the will of Allah and who am i to question that.

While pre-destination sounds good, it does not preclude questioning things. It doesn't preclude questioning the situation in Palestine, the war in Iraq or the destruction of items important to followers of another religion. If taken to the extreme, that everything is the will of Allah and not to be questioned, then Muslims would have no issue with Israel. We both know that this is not the case.

There is nothing to answer you twit.

There is, but you keep ignoring the questions or are having difficulty understanding them. My guess is the former. I shall rephrase them so you might possibly understand them better.

1) How did destroying the statues help feed any children?

2) Why did the Taliban refuse the money they were offered to buy the statues? They could have used that money to feed the children they claimed they cared about.

I understand the claim that they were upset that a group wanted to spend money to refurbish the statues because they wanted the money for aide instead (even though there are reports they were considering destroying the statues before such an offer). What nobody has been able to answer was how such an offer warranted destroying the statues.

I also find it astonishing that the same people who can get upset when people don't treat Islam or its Prophet (i.e. the Danish Cartoons) with respect but applaud and defend when other Muslims do the same to another religion. One should not ask for such respect if they are not willing to give it.

If you have a rational answer please give it. If you don't then please write another post full of name-calling and insults that avoid answering the questions.

[جوري]

There is, but you keep ignoring the questions or are having difficulty understanding them. My guess is the former. I shall rephrase them so you might possibly understand them better.

That is an adequate assessment of yourself so far.. non-questions asked hordes of different ways, don't make you any smarter unfortunately.. just makes us believe that you have some brief psychotic episode with echolalia!

1) How did destroying the statues help feed any children?

The better is how is restoring statues going to feed them? at least these way they can keep useless twits from entering their country unnecessarily!

2) Why did the Taliban refuse the money they were offered to buy the statues? They could have used that money to feed the children they claimed they cared about.

The Taliban weren't offered money!

I understand the claim that they were upset that a group wanted to spend money to refurbish the statues because they wanted the money for aide instead (even though there are reports they were considering destroying the statues before such an offer). What nobody has been able to answer was how such an offer warranted destroying the statues.

lol.. psychic individuals knew they wanted to destroy the statues from before? It is amazing what you can pick up with satellite now a days!

I also find it astonishing that the same people who can get upset when people don't treat Islam or its Prophet (i.e. the Danish Cartoons) with respect but applaud and defend when other Muslims do the same to another religion. One should not ask for such respect if they are not willing to give it.

Didn't you just try this with the dome of the rock before? how did that fare for you? It is as if you have so much garbage inside you and need to purge yourself of it repeatedly!

If you have a rational answer please give it. If you don't then please write another post full of name-calling and insults that avoid answering the questions.

As the other gentleman said irrational questions have no rational responses.. albeit it the answers I have given are probably well over your head.. a twit is a gadfly who is a nuisance to others and completely ineffectual otherwise I believe that along with your own projections in your first opening statement sum you up adequately.. Is highlighting the truth an 'insult'? or does the definition of matters evolve as you tighten the noose around your neck?
If you don't like the answers here or the people here, then don't be a member here!

all the best

[titus]

The better is how is restoring statues going to feed them? at least these way they can keep useless twits from entering their country unnecessarily!

So you are claiming that they destroyed the statues in order to keep out people that wanted to restore the statues?

If that was the reason then why the edict by the Taliban to destroy all non-Islamic statues?

If they were doing this for the aid then why commit an act that they knew would outrage the whole rest of the world and make getting aid even more difficult?

The answer is obvious. Aid was not a factor in this. The Taliban wanted the statues destroyed because they considered them un-Islamic and they had no tolerance for other religions or their symbols.

The Taliban weren't offered money!

You are grossly incorrect. They were not only offered money, but they were offered money by multiple entities.

A Japanese parliamentary group offered the Taliban humanitarian aid in exchange for moving the statues out of the country. They also turned down offers by India and The New York Metropolitan Museum. Thailand proposed creating a fund to buy the statues.

The Taliban turned down these offers. They chose destroying statues over feeding their children.

How much more information do you require before you come to the realization that the Taliban did not destroy the statues because of humanitarian aid, but because of the their intolerance of other religions?

lol.. psychic individuals knew they wanted to destroy the statues from before?

The Taliban attempted to destroy them in 1998 but a local leader talked them out of it. As I have said already the leader of the Taliban had issued an edict calling for the destruction of all non-Islamic statues. There are also multiple reports on other statues and "non-Islamic" items being destroyed. So no, you don't have to be psychic.

Didn't you just try this with the dome of the rock before? how did that fare for you? It is as if you have so much garbage inside you and need to purge yourself of it repeatedly!

The same principle applies. A group cannot ask people to respect their religion then say it is their duty to disrespect other religions.

If you have a rational answer please give it. If you don't then please write another post full of name-calling and insults that avoid answering the questions.

As the other gentleman said irrational questions have no rational responses.. albeit it the answers I have given are probably well over your head.. a twit is a gadfly who is a nuisance to others and completely ineffectual otherwise I believe that along with your own projections in your first opening statement sum you up adequately.. Is highlighting the truth an 'insult'? or does the definition of matters evolve as you tighten the noose around your neck?
If you don't like the answers here or the people here, then don't be a member here!

Just the response I was expecting.

[جوري]

So you are claiming that they destroyed the statues in order to keep out people that wanted to restore the statues?

It is certainly a possibility, it also prevents further misuse of funds which can be otherwise channeled toward more pressing affairs, like making long-johns for British soldiers that don't jingle!

If that was the reason then why the edict by the Taliban to destroy all non-Islamic statues?

Really? that is news, because according to the above link shared by espada, caves filled with oil paintings and images of other types of idols were found.. don't you think they should have gone ahead with those amongst others if there were a religious edict which all are to follow like 'divine law'?

If they were doing this for the aid then why commit an act that they knew would outrage the whole rest of the world and make getting aid even more difficult?

Only twits with too much free time on their hands are outraged.. I am surprised and frankly appalled at the amount of time you spent whining over statues with complete disregard to human life, whether children or otherwise.. the more you write, the more a disgusting, unfeeling hypocrite you come across!

The answer is obvious. Aid was not a factor in this. The Taliban wanted the statues destroyed because they considered them un-Islamic and they had no tolerance for other religions or their symbols.

No one is interested in your opinion, frankly I think you completely inept at forming a cohesive logical thought, as such whatever considerations you have on the side you should keep to yourself or with like-minded twits!

You are grossly incorrect. They were not only offered money, but they were offered money by multiple entities.

because you are so credible and have been so far, that is why we should believe you-yes!

A Japanese parliamentary group offered the Taliban humanitarian aid in exchange for moving the statues out of the country. They also turned down offers by India and The New York Metropolitan Museum. Thailand proposed creating a fund to buy the statues.

see above, further, it is a matter of property, you have no say or impress financial motivation on others!
like stated before, it is best to stop looting other people's countries and their civilizations before going off on tangents, just so what you write doesn't seem like a long chain of hypocrisy!

The Taliban turned down these offers. They chose destroying statues over feeding their children.

have you anything of substance to impart?

How much more information do you require before you come to the realization that the Taliban did not destroy the statues because of humanitarian aid, but because of the their intolerance of other religions?

firstly, I don't take my 'information' from the likes of you! secondly you haven't been parting with any information merely your opinion and like the rest of what you write is to be immediately discarded!

The Taliban attempted to destroy them in 1998 but a local leader talked them out of it. As I have said already the leader of the Taliban had issued an edict calling for the destruction of all non-Islamic statues. There are also multiple reports on other statues and "non-Islamic" items being destroyed. So no, you don't have to be psychic.

really? let's have a listen to that conversation, the way you had a listen to their reasons for destroying the Buddhas from the first place.

The same principle applies. A group cannot ask people to respect their religion then say it is their duty to disrespect other religions.

You have no principles and are unable to support anything you write with facts, let alone draw similes that have any semblance to real life, and lastly and I think the most important point, is any sovereign nation has a right to do what it pleases with its property.

Just the response I was expecting.

we're yet to be wowed with your witticism oh leader of the pack and carrier of the flame!

[Woodrow]

Too many pages of useless posts

:threadclo: