PDA

View Full Version : Opinion of Yemeni Fragments??



Seeker1066
05-09-2010, 02:24 AM
Peace to all here. I would like to hear your opinion on the Yemeni fragments of the Qur'an. Specifically as those who seek to undermine faith in the Qur'an are trying to use this as a tool to prevent people seeking like myself from believing that the Qur'an is uncreated? This is not a flame or attempt to disparage Islam or the Holy Qur'an but as a serious seeker I desire the advice of those other than Christians seeking to talk me out of reversion.

Peace to you all
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Seeker1066
05-11-2010, 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
Peace to all here. I would like to hear your opinion on the Yemeni fragments of the Qur'an. Specifically as those who seek to undermine faith in the Qur'an are trying to use this as a tool to prevent people seeking like myself from believing that the Qur'an is uncreated? This is not a flame or attempt to disparage Islam or the Holy Qur'an but as a serious seeker I desire the advice of those other than Christians seeking to talk me out of reversion.

Peace to you all
Hello anyone out there????
Reply

Seeker1066
05-11-2010, 02:28 AM
Why is this thread being bumped out of the new post list??
Reply

جوري
05-11-2010, 02:29 AM
Greetings,

I recommend you read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/History-Qurani...3544607&sr=8-6

it deals with the matter of the so-called 'yemeni fragments' on pgs 112,141-2, 73, 4-6, 12, 314-8

He deals with Puin and lester's reliance on puin's .. I can't summarize the entire book for you as it would be too time consuming but I really think you'd benefit greatly from purchasing the book as the entire compilation of the Quran is dealt with in a very scholarly fashion!

Peace
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Seeker1066
05-11-2010, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Greetings,

I recommend you read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/History-Qurani...3544607&sr=8-6

it deals with the matter of the so-called 'yemeni fragments' on pgs 112,141-2, 73, 4-6, 12, 314-8

He deals with Puin and lester's reliance on puin's .. I can't summarize the entire book for you as it would be too time consuming but I really think you'd benefit greatly from purchasing the book as the entire compilation of the Quran is dealt with in a very scholarly fashion!

Peace
Thank you Thank you Thank you....this is just what I was looking for. I really apprecaite your help on this.

Peace to you
Reply

جوري
05-11-2010, 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
Thank you Thank you Thank you....this is just what I was looking for. I really apprecaite your help on this.

Peace to you
my pleasure..I'd be interested in a discussion with you after you've read the book :smile: sorry for the late reply, I am finding it difficult to navigate the new forum so it is perhaps a blessing that this showed up as a new post list...

peace and godspeed!
Reply

جوري
05-11-2010, 03:35 AM
I am going to excerpt from page 314

In his contribution to the Quran as text, Dr. Puin alludes to the peculiarities found in the Yemeni board:34

  • defective writing of the alif. these are more common in the san'a fragments than others
  • variations in the position of Ayah sepration within certain verses
  • the 'greatest find' is a fragment where the end of sura 26 is followed by surah 27

In authoring what is the Quran from the January 1999 issue of the Atlantic monthly, Toby Lester heavily relied on Dr. Puin's discoveries. One of the main figures in the restoration of the Mushaf in Sana'a Yemen, 35
Dr. Puin found himself and the Yemeni fragments thrust into the spotlight with the article's publication. Lester's words occasioned both sensational joy and anger concerning Puin's work, depending on whether one spoke with Orientalists or devout Muslims, so to counter the anger of the Muslim street and wipe clean the distrust, Puin wrote a lengthy letter in Arabic to al-Qadi-al-Akwa of Yemen. The letter then appeared in the daily arh-Thawara newspaper, and I have reproduced it elsewhere36. praising the sana'a Mushafs and how they fortified the Muslim position, he nevertheless wrote with enough subtlety and vaguness to cast a pall over the whole history of the Quran. Following is a translation of part of the related theme:

The remnants [of these old mushafs] go back, scientifically assured, to the first century hijrah! because of the existence of these manuscripts in Sana'a,....[we have] the only monumental proof of the completion of the Quran in the first c of Hijrah and not, as so many non-Muslim scholars assert, from the early third century of hijrah! Of course Muslims may ask what is the point of such information from a non-Muslim scholar, when Muslims are certain that the complete Mushaf has existed ever since the third caliph, ''Uthman b. Affan. Theirs is simply a belief held in good faith, since we don't have the original copy of the Mushaf written under the supervision of ''Uthman, not any of the further copies which he dispatched to other territories...


anyhow to skip on and on

Not all orientalists allege that the Quran was completed in the early third century. There are some e.g Rev. Mingana who argue that it was completed by the first, and yet we have others, e.g. Muir who held that the pesent mushaf is idenitical to the text given by the prophet. Then there is al-Hajjaj (d.95 A.H.), to whom many western scholars give credit to the Quran's final recording. All these dates belong to the first century, and Puin's imprecision leaves the door open for assigning any date within that period. Precision is key to scholarship and we must abide by it. With the prophet's passing in early 11 A.H. the revelations arrived at their natural end; they were compiled into their external form during the reign of Abu bakr (d.13A.H) their spelling standardized and copies dispatched by Uthman (25-30 A.H). That is the Muslim view. Never have Muslims alleged that the complete Quran did not materialize until Uthman, and if Puin claims this then he certainly does not speak on behalf of any Muslim tongue.

Several dozen first century manuscript exist in various libraries around the world 37, my personal guess is that worldwide, there are about a quarter of a million partial or complete mushaf manuscripts covering all eras 38. Below is a list of these which have been conclusively dated in bold faced numbers..


Now, I won't list those so you'll see them and read more when purchasing the book, but hope that allays any doubts you may have had!

all the best
Reply

Seeker1066
05-13-2010, 03:44 AM
Thanks again for posting this. The cheapest copy I can find online is $35 US as it is listed as out of print. So this excerpt is very helpful.
Peace to you
Reply

جوري
05-13-2010, 02:32 PM
Took me a while to get a copy too, but I was glad of it.. I can't say why a thousands of anti-Islamic books are in circulation but scholarly Islamic books are so hard to come by.. nonetheless I don't think you'll regret this purchase in general!

peace to you!
Reply

Zone Maker
05-14-2010, 04:06 AM
Aslam 3likm

I found an article on a forum which refutes the allegation but unfortunately it's in Arabic.
Just (click here)
Reply

جوري
05-14-2010, 04:40 AM
Seeker speaks Arabic ..thanks for sharing

:w:
Reply

Seeker1066
05-15-2010, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Seeker speaks Arabic ..thanks for sharing

:w:
I want to learn Arabic. I love the way it sounds.
Reply

جوري
05-15-2010, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
I want to learn Arabic. I love the way it sounds.
woops sorry.. I was under the impression that you were a Coptic Egyptian.. you somewhat remind me of this fellow, I got to read his story from the stealth crusade.


Submitted by HOW I CAME TO ISLAM on Fri Sep. 12, 2008 1:03 PM PDT.
I was born and raised in a typical middle-class Lebanese Catholic family in Beirut, Lebanon. Two years into the war I was forced to leave, and completed high school in England. Then I went to Columbia College in New York. After my BA I went back to Lebanon and taught at my old school. Two years later I left Lebanon again, this time of my own free will, although it was a more wrenching separation than the first. I left behind my war-torn country and made for my new land of opportunities. I was demoralized, and spiritually at a complete impass. With my uncle's support I went back to graduate studies at Columbia. This is the brief story of my conversion to Islam while there.
While in Lebanon I had come to realize that I was a nominal Christian who did not really live according to what he knew were the norms of his faith. I decided than whenever the chance came I would try my best to live according to my idea of Christian standards for one year, no matter the cost. I took this challenge while at Columbia. A graduate student's life is blessed with the leisure necessary for spiritual and intellectual exploration. In the process I read and meditated abundantly, and I prayed earnestly for dear guidance. My time was shared literally between the church and the library, and I gradually got rid of all that stood in the way of my experiment, especially social attachments or activities that threatened to steal my time and concentration. I only left campus to visit my mother every now and then.
Certain meetings and experiences had set me on the road of inquiry about Islam. During a scholarship year spent in Paris I had bought a complete set of tapes of the holy Qur'an. Back in New York I listened to its recitation for the first time, as I read simultaneously the translation, drinking in its awesome beauty. I paid particular attention to the passages that concerned Christians. I felt an inviting familiarity to it because undoubtedly the One I addressed in my prayers was the same One that spoke this speech, even as I squirmed at some of the "verses of threat". After some time I knew that this was my path, since I had become convinced of the heavenly origin of the Qur'an.
I was reading many books at the same time. Two of them were Martin Lings' "Life of Muhammad" and Fariduddin Attar's "Book of Secrets" (Persian "Asrar-Nama", in French translation). I found extremely inspiring Lings' account of Shaykh Ahmad `Alawi's life in his book "A Sufi Saint of the Twentieth Century." I did not finish the latter before I became a Muslim; but I am jumping ahead. At any rate, it now seemed my previous experience of religion had been like learning the alphabet in comparison, even my early morning and late night Bible readings and my past studies in the original Latin of Saint Augustine, who had once towered in my life as a spiritual giant.
I began to long almost physically for a kind of prayer closer to the Islamic way, which to me held promises of great spiritual fulfillment, although I had grown completely dependent on certain spiritual habits -- particularly communion and prayer -- and could hardly do without them. And yet I had unmistakable signs pointing me in a further direction. One of them I considered almost a slap in the face in its frankness: when I told my local priest about the attraction I felt towards Islam he responded as he should, but then closed his talk with the words: allahu akbar. "Allahu akbar"? An Italian-American priest?!
I went to two New York mosques but the imams there wanted to talk about the Bible or about the Middle East conflict, I suppose to make polite conversation with me. I realized they did not necessarily see what drove me to them and yet I did not find an avenue where I would pluck up the courage to declare my intention. Then I would go home and tell myself: Another day has passed, and you are still not Muslim. Finally I went to the Muslim student group at Columbia and announced my intention, and declared the two shahada: The Arabic formula that consists in saying "I bear witness that there is no god but Allah" -- the Arabic name for God -- "and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Prophet." They taught me ablution and salat (prayer), and I gained a dear friend among them. Those days are marked in my life with letters of light.
Another close friend of mine played a role in this conversion. This devout American Christian friend had entered Islam years before me. At the time I felt in my silly pride that it was wrong for an American to enter into the religion of the Arabs and for me, an Arab, to stand like a mule in complete ignorance of it. It had a great effect on me from both sides: the cultural one and the spiritual, because he was -- is -- an honest and upright person whose major move meant a great deal to me.
I had also come to realize that my early education in Lebanon had carefully sheltered me from Islam, even though I lived in a mixed neighborhood in the middle of Beirut. I went to my father's and grandfather's Jesuit school. The following incident is proof that there is no turning away of Allah's gift when He decides to give it. One year, when I was 12, a strange religious education teacher gave us as an assignment the task of learning the Fatiha -- the first chapter of the Qur'an -- by heart. I went home and did, and it stayed with me all my life. After parents complained he was fired -- "we do not send our children to a Christian school in order for them to learn the religion of Muslims" -- but the seed had been sown, right there in the staunch Christian heartland, inside its prize school. Now here I was in the United States, knocking at the door of the religion of the Prophet, peace be upon him!
Days after I took shahada I met my teacher and the light on my path, Shaykh Hisham Kabbani of Tripoli, after which I met his own teacher, Shaykh Nazim al-Haqqani of Cyprus. May Allah bless and grant them long life. Through them, after some years, my mother also took shahada and I hope and pray every day that my two brothers and stepfather will soon follow in Allah's immense generosity. Allah's blessings and peace on the Prophet, his Family, his Companions, and all Prophets.
Fouad Haddad
either way I wish you well on your search and on your journey.. May Allah swt guide you to what he loves and chooses.. ameen

peace
Reply

Seeker1066
05-16-2010, 01:42 AM
Thanks Lily. Your help on this has been very valuable to me and God will not fail to repay your kindness.

Peace to you
Reply

جوري
05-16-2010, 01:44 AM
Thank you for your time and for reading.. that is payment enough..

peace
Reply

TheRationalizer
12-23-2010, 01:35 PM
UNESCO seems to have more image scans than they did a few years ago when I first heard about this.

tinyurl com / SanaaQuranicScripts

This subject came to mind recently because I saw a video on youtube
www youtube com / watch?v=JJyeuXtZFuQ&t=3m20s

Most of it seemed over sensational etc but the claim at 3min 20s (linked) is something I hadn't heard of before. It says florescent light reveals that the text had previously been written down with verses in a different order, washed off, and then re-written.

Is this matter addressed in the book linked as well or is this information more recent than the book? I wonder if anyone has any resources on the issue of the washed off text?
Reply

TheRationalizer
12-23-2010, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Seeker1066
I desire the advice of those other than Christians seeking to talk me out of reversion.
I often find Christians criticising Islam are quite annoying. Cold harsh rationalism and demanding irrefutable proof when discussing the Quran, but then immediately irrational excuses and "believe without proof" when the subject switches to Christianity. I think some people need a bit more consistency.

I don't want to turn this into Christian bashing but I'd also like to say that I just can't debate with Christians at all. At least when a Muslim's claims to me make no sense I can see they are trying to make sense.
Reply

Zafran
12-23-2010, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
I often find Christians criticising Islam are quite annoying. Cold harsh rationalism and demanding irrefutable proof when discussing the Quran, but then immediately irrational excuses and "believe without proof" when the subject switches to Christianity. I think some people need a bit more consistency.

I don't want to turn this into Christian bashing but I'd also like to say that I just can't debate with Christians at all. At least when a Muslim's claims to me make no sense I can see they are trying to make sense.
I don't want this to turn into an atheist bashing thread but atheists on a religious forum are one of the most confusing people to debate or even talk to about religoin. You can understand why other religious people would be here but atheists who seem to think religion is bogus and still come here confuses me. Its not annoying its crazy.
Reply

TheRationalizer
12-23-2010, 03:47 PM
Very funny :-)
Reply

Zafran
12-23-2010, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Very funny :-)
That was serious not a joke.
Reply

TheRationalizer
12-23-2010, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
That was serious not a joke.
Even so, it was still funny :-)
Reply

TheRationalizer
12-31-2010, 10:31 AM
I tried to reply to your private message but for some reason the moderators have removed my permission to private message people. I *think* you are the only person I have sent a private message to, and I think you'll agree I did not abuse the system? Anyway, here is the reply I tried to send...

Let me know if it is any good. I read a website recently about how there are at least 7 different versions of the Quran, but it's written by a Christian so I'll have to buy those books and check them for myself. Have you heard of that?
No I hadn't heard that yet.
The differences appear superficial in most cases, but in one case there appears to be a change of meaning from "He killed" to "He was killed", I don't think you can get more different when it comes to the subject of murder. But as I said, it's from a Christian website - I tried buying the books myself so that I could confirm/reject what he said but no shops near me sell the other editions. These are apparently books which are in common use in different parts of the world.

By the way, did you watch the sana'a video? At first it seemed that the sana'a scripts were the same as in the Quran but with the verses in a different order, but apparently scanning them with UV light revealed that different wording had previously been written onto the parchments and then washed off to be replaced with the new text.

Not sure whether any of this is true or not. What I would like is
1: The Yemen government to release the documents so that they can be shared with the rest of the world.

2: The Uthman Quran was available as photographs, according to the expert at a London museum the only available copies of the Uthman are photographs of hand copies. I find that odd considering it would have been less work and less damage to photograph it directly.

These people need to make these documents publicly available for scrutiny, if I am not mistaken I think I read a verse in the Quran somewhere which complained about the Jews concealing scripture.

But anyway if you do buy that book then please do let me know what you thought of it, I just don't have enough free time to read it at the moment :(
Reply

جوري
12-31-2010, 03:37 PM
If someone has a history of Quranic text the on line version I'd appreciate it, as it gets painstaking to write things out!

Introduction to al-Azami’s “The History of the Qur’ānic Text”

June 15, 2007 by Rasheed Gonzales 11 Comments

Due to the benefit it contains, I’ve been wanting to post Professor Muhammad Mustafâ al-A’zamî’s introduction to his book titled The History of The Qur’ānic Text from Revelation to Compilation: A Comparative Study with the Old and New Testaments for some time now, but never really had the time to sit down and transcribe it until now. Allah willing the visitors to my blog will benefit greatly from what the Professor mentions in it. He touches on some very pertinent issues concerning revisionist thought in Islam, as well as some things concerning the famous Yemeni parchments so often mentioned on various websites about Islam (both hostile and friendly). Enjoy … .
Prof. al-A’zamî writes,
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُونُواْ قَوَّامِينَ للهِ شُهَدَآءَ بِالْقِسْطِ وَلاَ يَجْرِمَنَّكُم شَنَئَانُ قَومٍ عَلَى أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ اعْدِلُواْ هُوَ أَقْرَبُ لِلتَّقْوَى وَاتَّقُواْ اللهَ إنَّ اللهَ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allāh, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to make you swerve towards inequity and depart from justice. Be just: that is closer to Piety: and fear Allāh, for Allāh is well-aquinted with all that you do.”[1]
Guidance, comfort and beauty. For the believing Muslim the Holy Qur’ān is all this and much more: the heartbeat of faith, a remembrance in times of joy and anguish, a fountain of precise scientific reality and the most exquisite lyricism, a treasury of wisdom and supplications. Its verses hang from the walls of shops and living rooms, lie etched in the minds of young and old, and reverberate through the night from minarets across the globe. Even so, Sir William Muir (1819-1905) adamantly declared it one of the “most stubborn enemies of Civilisation, Liberty, and the Truth which the World has yet known”.[2] Others have been no more charitable, seeing fit to heap abuse or cast suspicion upon it throughout the centuries and up to our present day, among them scholars, missionaries, and now even the occasional politician. Such a dichotomy is aggravating to Muslims and certainly perplexing to the non-Muslim, who would be well justified in supposing that each group was alluding to a different book altogether. What are the facts and what is the evidence? Faced with such an immense and sensitive topic brimming with ideas to consider, I could have begun my exploration anywhere; the starting point, as it finally turned out, was to be an article by someone I had never heard of before.
“What is the Koran?”, the lead article of the January 1999 issue of The Atlantic Monthly, raised many issues concerning the origins and integrity of the Qur’ān.[3] The author’s credentials, a certain Toby Lester, are given in the magazine and suggest that he does not have any knowledge of Islam aside from having lived in Yemen and Palestine for a few years, though this hardly seems to hinder him for he delves headlong into controversy. He mentions that:
Western Koranic scholarship has traditionally taken place in the context of an openly declared hostility between Christianity and Islam…. The Koran has seemed, for Christian and Jewish scholars particularly, to possess an aura of heresy….[4]
After citing William Muir’s denunciation of the Qur’ān he states that even early Soviet scholars subjected Islam to their ideological biases: N.A. Morozov for instance flamboyantly argued that “until the Crusades Islam was indistinguishable from Judaism and … only then did it receive its independent character, while Muhammad and the first Caliphs are mythical figures”.[5]
Such passages may suggest to some that Lester’s approach is purely academic: a curious reporter filing an objective report. In an interview with the ash-Sharq al-Awsat Daily[6] he denies any bad intentions, hard feelings, or wrongdoing towards Muslims, insisting that he sought only the truth. But there is no doubt that he has taken pains to collect his information strictly from the anti-traditionalist camp, heralding the arrival of secular reinterpretations of the Muslim Holy Book. He extensively quotes Dr. Gerd R. Joseph Puin, associated with the restoration of old Qur’ānic fragments in San’ā’, Yemen (which I have seen recently, and for which he and his team deserve great gratitude). Now a bookbinder who completes a magnificent binding of a complex mathematical text will not automatically ascend to the rank of mathematician, but because of his restoration of the pages of old manuscripts, Puin is fashioned into a world-authority on the Qur’ān’s entire history.
“So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Koran is God’s unaltered word,” [Dr. Puin] says. “They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Koran has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Koran has a history too. The San’ā’ fragments will help us to do this.”[7]
Lester’s next point of reference is Andrew Rippin, Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Calgary, who states that:
“Variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed.”[8]
Personally I find Prof. Rippin’s comments baffling; on the one hand variant readings (or rather, multiple readings) have been recognised and commented on by Muslim scholars since the time of the Prophet. By no means are they a new discovery. On the other hand not even Puin (as far as I am aware) claims to have uncovered differences in the order of the verses in his manuscripts, though his views on the Qur’ān are in line with modern revisionism.
“My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad,” [Puin] says. “Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.” Patricia Crone defends the goals of this sort of thinking. “The Koran is a scripture with a history like any other – except that we don’t know this history and tend to provoke howls of protest when we study it.”[9]
Arabic speakers have long held the Qur’ān as a Book of unique beauty; even the idol-worshippers of Makkah were spellbound by its lyricism and failed to produce anything resembling it.[10] Such qualities do not deter Puin from speaking disdainfully about it.
“The Koran claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen’, or ‘clear’“ he says, “But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims – and Orientalists – will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible.”[11]
G.R. Puin strings many words together but provides no examples, which is unfortunate because I have absolutely no idea where this incomprehensible fifth of the Qur’ān happens to be. Lester then states that the unwillingness to accept the conventional understanding of the Qur’ān only began in earnest in the 20th century;[12] he references Patricia Crone, quotes R.S. Humphreys,[13] and ends up at Wansbrough. The main thrust of Wansbrough’s work is to establish two major points: firstly, that the Qur’ān and hadīth were generated by various communities over the course of two centuries; and second, that Islamic doctrine was modelled on Rabbinical Jewish prototypes. Puin is apparently re-reading his works now, for his theories have been germinating slowly in certain circles even though “many Muslims understandably find them deeply offensive.”[14] Readers have known Cook, Crone and Wansbrough for a quarter of a century, but the new face to emerge from this piece is Dr. Puin, whose findings form the backbone of Lester’s lengthy article. Some of the Yemeni parchments, dating back to the first two centuries of Islam,
[reveal] small but intruiging aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God. The mainly secular effort to reinterpret the Koran – in part based on textual evidence such as that provided by the Yemeni fragments[15] – is disturbing and offensive to many Muslims, just as attempts to reinterpret the Bible and the life of Jesus are disturbing and offensive to many conservative Christians…. [Such secular reinterpretation] can be nonetheless very powerful and – as the histories of the Renaissance and the Reformation demonstrate – can lead to major social change. The Koran, after all, is currently the world’s most ideologically influential text.[16]
So the entire matter lies before us:

  • The Qur’ān is currently the world’s most ideologically influential text.
  • Many Muslims look to the Qur’ān as the Christians once did to the Bible, as God’s unaltered Word.
  • The Yemeni fragments will help secular efforts to reinterpret the Qur’ān.
  • Though offensive to countless Muslims, this reinterpretation can provide the impetus for major social changes that mirror what Christianity experienced centuries ago.
  • These changes may be brought about by ‘showing’ that the Qur’ān was initially a text, one which the Muslim community contributed to and freely rearranged over several centuries, implying that the Qur’ān was not as sacred then as it has now misguidedly become.

The majority of Lester’s references, those quoted or mentioned in his piece, are non-Muslim: Gerd-R. Joseph Puin, Bothmer, Rippin, R. Stephen Humphreys, Gunter Luling, Yehuda D. Nevo, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, James Bellamy, William Muir, Lambton, Tolstov, Morozov and Wansbrough. He also spreads the glad tiding that, within the Islamic world, revisionism is on the move. In this category he names Nasr Abū Zaid, Tāha Husain, ‘Alī Dushtī, Muhammad Abdu, Ahmad Amīn, Fazlur-Rahmān, and finally Muhammad Arkoun and his fervent advice to battle othodoxy from within.[17] Scholars from the traditional school of Islamic thought are largely cast aside and ignored, with only Muhammad Abdu’s contraversial name being included.
But what is the revisionist school? Lester fails to define it clearly, so I will allow Yehuda Nevo, one of the authorities he quotes, to supply the definition:
The ‘revisionist’ approach is by no means monolithic… [but they] are united in denying historical validity to accounts based purely on ‘facts’ derived from the Muslim literary sources… The information they provide must be corroborated by the ‘hard facts’ of material remains… [The written sources] should always be checked against external evidence, and where the two conflict, the latter should be preferred.[18]
Because external evidence must necessarily be found to verify every Muslim account, absence of such corroboration helps to negate the account and implies that the event never took place.
That there is no evidence for it outside of the ‘traditional account’ thus becomes positive evidence in support of the hypothesis that it did not happen. A striking example is the lack of evidence, outside the Muslim literature, for the view that the Arabs were Muslim at the time of the Conquest.[19]
The outcome of this revisionist approach is a complete erasure of Islamic history, and the fabrication of another in which such events as the pre-Islamic presence of paganism in Makkah, the Jewish settlements near Madinah, and the Muslim victory over the Byzantine Empire in Syria are absolutely denied. In fact, revisionism agrues that the paganism which afflicted Makkah prior to Islam is simply a fictitious back-projection of a pagan culture that thrived in southern Palestine.[20]
The central point, which must be made clear, is that there is a definite motive behind all these ‘discoveries’. Such findings do not exist in a vacuum or fall unexpectedly into the scholar’s lap; they are the brainchild of a particular ideological and political arena, served up in the guise of breakthrough academic research.[21]
Attempts to distort Islam and its sacred texts are in fact as old as the religion itself, though the strategy behind these efforts has fluctuated according to the intended goal. Beginning with the rise of Islam and up until the 13th century A.H. (7th-18th century C.E.), the first objective was to establish a protective fence around Christians to counteract the rapid advance of the new faith in Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Libya etc. Among the notables of this period were John of Damascus (35-133 A.H./675-750 C.E.), Peter the Venerable (1084-1156 C.E.), Robert of Ketton, Raymond Lull (1235-1316 C.E.), Martin Luther (1483-1546 C.E.) and Ludovico Marraci (1612-1700 C.E.), their pens dipped in unsophisticated yet wilful ignorance and falsehood. Spurred by the change in political fortunes and the start of colonialism from the 18th century onwards, the second phase of attack witnessed a shift in posture from defensive to offensive, aspiring to the mass conversion of Muslims or, at the least, of shattering any pride and resistance that emanated from their belief in Allāh.
Abraham Geiger (1810-1874) belongs squarely to this second period; his 1833 dissertation, Was hat Mohammed aus den Judentum aufgenommen? (“What did Mohammed take from Judaism?”), inaugurated the search for ulterior influences on the Qur’ān and lead to innumerable books and articles aimed at branding it a poor biblical counterfeit, replete with mistakes.
Future chapters will bring to light other names which have spearheaded this second phase, including Nöldeke (1836-1930), Goldziher (1850-1921), Hurgronje (1857-1936), Bergsträsser (1886-1933), Tisdall (1859-1928), Jeffery (d. 1952) and Schacht (1902-1969). A third phase, beginning in the mid 20th century on the heels of the founding of Israel, has actively sought to purge all verses that cast an unfavourable light on Jews. Among the followers of this school are Rippin, Crone, Power, Calder and not least of all Wansbrough, whose theory, that the Qur’ān and hadīth are a community product spanning two centuries which were then fictitiously attributed to an Arabian prophet based on Jewish prototypes, is doubtlessly the most radical approach to ousting the Qur’ān from its hallowed status.
The previous decades have witnessed a quickened maturation of these last two phases, swelling in multi-faceted ways; a fairly recent scheme for assailing the Qur’ān has been its reduction to a cultural text, one which is a by-product of a particular era and is therefore obsolete, rather than a Book that is meant for all nations at all times.
Traditional Islam had not been resistant to the notion that the revelation reflected the milieu in which it was revealed… But traditional Islam could never have made the leap from the idea of a scripture which engages the society in which it was revealed to the notion of one which is a product of it. For most Muslims in the modern world any significant move in this direction is still hardly an option, and it is unlikely to become one in the near foreseeable future.[22]
This was the inspiration for Nasr Abū Zaid (declared an apostate by Egypt’s highest court and according to Cook, a ‘Muslim secularist’[23]), whose central belief about the Qur’ān was that,
If the text was a message sent to the Arabs of the seventh century, then of necessity it was formulated in a manner which took for granted historically specific aspects of their language and culture. The Koran thus took shape in a human setting. It was a ‘cultural product’ – a phrase Abu Zayd used seveal times, and which was highlighted by the Court of Cassation when it determined him to be an unbeliever.[24]
Approaching the Qur’ān from a textual view point appears benign enough to the uninitiated; how insiduous could concepts such as ‘semantics’ and ‘textual linguistics’ be? But the focus is not a study of the text itself so much as it is a study of the evolution of the text, of how forms and structures within the Qur’ān can be derived from 7th/8th century Arabic literature.[25] This essentially leads to a thorough secularisation and desanctification of the text. Speaking of the Biblical scholar Van Buren, Professor E.L. Mascall states that “[he] finds the guiding principle of the secularization of Christianity in the philosophical school which is commonly known as linguistic analysis.”[26] If such is the aim of linguistic analysis in Biblical studies, what other motive can there be in applying it to the Qur’ān?
This being outside the realm of what is tolerable to Muslims, an alternate strategy is to substitute the holy text with vernacular translations, then inflate their status such that they are held on par with the original Arabic. In this way Muslim societies, three-quarters of which are non-Arab, can be severed from the actual revelations of Allāh.
There is necessarily a mismatch between the Arabic of the Koran and the local language of primary education… The tension is exacerbated by the fact that modernity brings an enhanced concern for the intelligibility of scriptures among the believers at large. As the Turkish nationalist Ziya Gökalp (d. 1924) put it: “A country in whose schools the Koran is read in Turkish is one in which everyone, child and adult, knows God’s commands”.[27]
After describing the futile Turkish efforts to displace the actual Qur’ān with a Turkish translation, Michael Cook concludes,
To date, the non-Arab Muslim world shows little sign of adopting the idea of a vernacular scripture in the manner of sixteenth-century Protestantism or twentieth-century Catholicism.[28]
If all other strategems are left in tatters, one last resort remains. As described by Cook:
In a modern Western society it is more or less axiomatic that other people’s religious beliefs (though not, of course, all forms of religiously motivated behaviour) are to be tolerated, or perhaps even respected. Indeed it would be considered ill mannered and parochial to refer to the religious views of others as false and one’s own as true… the very notion of absolute truth in matters of religion sounds hopelessly out of date. It is, however, a notion that was central to traditional Islam, as it was to traditional Christianity; and in recent centuries it has survived better in Islam.[29]
Cook writes this under the heading “Tolerating the beliefs of others”, but what he expounds instead is universalism. Imbued with tolerance, Islam maintains clear and firm injunctions governing the rights of non-Muslims; this is well known. Cook’s thrust here is instead about doubt and relativism: the notion that all religions are equally valid because to think otherwise is to betray oneself as provincial and ignorant. This, sadly, is an easier pitfall for many contemporary, ill-educated Muslims. And as a corollary to this idea, “There [is] a nearly unanimous rejection of any attempt to distinguish between non-Muslim and a Muslim scholarship in present-day Qur’ānic studies.”[30]
A rising chorus of Western scholars now come forward to assail the traditional tafsīr literature,[31] demanding something altogether new. Arguing for the exclusive right to interpret the holy text, many Orientalists dismiss earlier Muslim writings on this topic “on the grounds that Muslims – being dupes, as it were, of the notion that [the Qur’ān] was Scripture – of course could not understand the text so well as could a Western scholar free from that limitation”.[32] Basetti-Sani and Youakim Moubarac both insist that tafsīr be made compatible with ‘Christian truth’, a sentiment endorsed by W.C. Smith and Kenneth Cragg.[33] This last, an Anglican bishop, urges Muslims to scrap the verses revealed in Madinah (with their emphasis on the political and legal aspects of Islam) in favour of their Makkan counterparts, which are generally more involved with basic issues of monotheism, leaving precious little of the religion intact aside from the verbal pronouncement that there is no god except Allāh.[34]
All these concepts are meant to shake the already-slender faith of wary Muslims, arming them with Orientalist barbs and setting them out to queistion and dismiss the very Book which they have inherited, in the process becoming more susceptable to Western ideology. Toby Lester’s article is just another card in this deck, and the tales behind the Yemeni fragments simply another bait. Dr. Puin himself has in fact denied all of the findings Lester ascribes to him, with the exception of occasionall differences in the spelling of some words. Here is a part of Puin’s original letter – which he wrote to al-Qādī Ismā’īl al-Akwa’ shortly after Lester’s article – with its translation.[35]
[Rasheed: Here al-A’zamî included a photocopy of the hand-written letter from Puin to al-Akwa’. I will just be presenting the Arabic text of that letter, rather than the image of the photocopy.]
المهم والحمد لله لا تختلف المصاحف الصنعانية عن غيرها في متاحف العالم ودور كتبه إلا في تفاصيل لا تمسّ القرآن كنصّ مقروء وإنما الاختلاف في الكتابة فقط. هذه الظاهرة معروفة حتى من القرآن المطبوع في القاهرة حيث ورد كتابة
ابرهيم على جانب ابرهم
قران [على جانب] قرن
سيماهم [على جانب] بسيمهم على جانب بسيمهما
لخ
اما في اقدم المصاحف الصنعانية فتكثر ظاهرة حذف الالفات مثلا.
The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur’ānic fragments do not differ from those found in the museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur’ān itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur’ān published in Cairo in which is written:
Ibrhīm (ابرهيم) next to Ibrhm (ابرهم)
Qurān (قران) next to Qrn (قرن)
Sīmāhum (سيماهم) next to Sīmhum (سيمهم) etc.
In the oldest Yemeni Qur’ānic fragments, for example, the phenomenon of not writing the vowel alif is rather common.
This deflates the entire controversy, dusting away the webs of intrigue that were spun around Puin’s discoveries and making them a topic unworthy of further speculation.[36] But let us suppose for the sake of argument that the findings are indeed true; what then is our response? Here we face three questions:

  1. What is the Qur’ān?
  2. If any complete or partial manuscripts are uncovered at present or in the future, claiming to be Qur’ān but differing from what we now have in our hands, what impact would this have on the Qur’ānic text?
  3. Finally, who is entitled to be an authority on the Qur’ān? Or in general terms, to write about Islam and all its religious and historical facets?

These will be pondered over the course of this work, to reveal not only the following answers but also the logic which stipulates them:

  1. The Qur’ān is the very Word of Allāh, His final message to all humanity, revealed to His final messenger Muhammad and transcending all limitations of time and space. it is preserved in its original tongue without any amendments, additions or deletions.
  2. There will never be a discovery of a Qur’ān, fragmental or whole, which differs from the consensus text circulating throughout the world. If it does differ then it cannot be regarded as Qur’ān, because one of the foremost conditions for accepting anything as such is that it conforms to the text used in ‘Uthmān’s Mushaf.[37]
  3. Certainly anyone can write on Islam, but only a devout Muslim has the legitimate prerogative to write on Islamic and its related subjects. Some may consider this biased, but then who is not? Non-followers cannot claim neutrality, for writings swerve depending on whether Islam’s tenets agree or disagree with their personal beliefs, and so any attempts at interpretation from Christians, Jews, atheists, or non-practicing Muslims must be unequivocally discarded. I may add that if any proffered viewpoint clashes with the Prophet’s own guidelines, either explicitly or otherwise, it becomes objectionable; in this light even the writings of devout Muslims may be rejected if they lack merit. This selectivity lies at the very heart of Ibn Sīrīn’s golden rule (d. 110 A.H./728 C.E.):

إن هذا العلم دين فانظروا عمّن تأخذون دينكم
This knowledge constitutes your deen (religion), so be wary of whom you take your religion from.[38]
Some may argue that Muslims do not have any sound arguments with which to counteract non-Muslim scholarship, that for them the case is based entirely on faith and not on reason. I will therefore bring forward my arguments against their findings in future chapters, though I will first begin by recountering some passages from early Islamic history as a prelude to an in-depth look at the Qur’ān.
——————————————————————————-
Endnotes:
[1] Qur’ān, 5:8.
[2] Quoted in M. Broomhall, Islam in China, New Impression, London, 19878, p. 2.
[3] Cited thereafter as Lester. Also, though this article spells the Qur’ān as ‘Koran’, this is technically incorrect and I will utilise the proper spelling wherever I am not directly quoting.
[4] Lester, p. 46.
[5] ibid, pp. 46-7.
[6] London, 18 February 1999.
[7] Lester, p. 44. Italics added.
[8] ibid, p. 45. Italics added. It must be noted that all these damaging judgements have been passed even before anyone has thoroughly studied these manuscripts. Such is often the nature of Orientalist scholarship.
[9] ibid, p. 46.
[10] See this work pp. 48-50.
[11] Lester, p. 54.
[12] ibid, p. 54.
[13] ibid, p. 55.
[14] ibid, p. 55.
[15] Just for the record: in my assessment Türk ve Islam Eserleri Müzesi (Museum of Islamic Art) in Istanbul may house an even greater collection than that in Yemen. Unfortunately I was denied access to this collection, so this notion must remain speculative, though according to F. Déroche it houses about 210,000 folios [“The Qur’ān of Amāgūr”, Mansuscripts of the Middle East, Leiden, 1990-91, vol. 5, p. 59].
[16] Lester, p. 44. Italics added.
[17] ibid, p. 56.
[18] J. Koren and Y.D. Nevo, “Methodological Approaches to islamic Studies”, Des Islam, Band 68, Heft 1, 1991, pp. 89-90.
[19] ibid, pp. 92.
[20] ibid, pp. 100-102. See also this work pp. 337-8.
[21] For more on this essential topic, refer to Chapter 19.
[22] Michael Cook, The Koran: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford Univ. Press, 2000, p. 44.
[23] ibid, p. 46.
[24] ibid, p. 46. Italics added.
[25] For details, refer to Stefan Wild’s (ed.) Preface to The Qur’an as Text, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1996, p. vii-xi.
[26] E.L. Mascall, The Secularization of Christianity, Darton, Longman & Todd Ltd., London, 1965, p. 41.Dr. Paul M. Van Buren is the author of “The Secular Meaning of the Gospel”, which is based on the analysis of Biblical language [ibid, p.41.]
[27] M. Cook, The Koran: A Very Short Introduction, p. 26. Interestingly Ziya Gökalp was a Donma Jew who converted to islam [M. Qutb, al-Mustashriqūn wa al-Islam, p. 198].
[28] M. Cook, The Koran: A Very Short Introduction, p. 27.
[29] ibid, p. 33, emphasis added. Cook’s words ‘that was central to traditional Islam’, seem to imply that it is no longer appropriate for modern Islam.
[30] Stefan Wild (ed.), The Qur’an as Text, p. x. The original contains ‘was’ instead of ‘is’, but changing the tense seems valid given that nothing else has changed. In fact, Muslim scholarship concerning the Qur’ān is generally relegated to second-class status in Western circles, since the former espouses tranditionalism while the latter seeks revisionism.
[31] Exegesis of the Qur’ān.
[32] W.C. Smith, “The True Meaning of Scripture”, IJMES, vol. 11 (1980), p. 498.
[33] Peter Ford, “The Qur’ān as Sacred Scripture”, Muslim World, vol. lxxxiii, no. 2, April 1993, pp. 151-53.
[34] A. Saeed, “Rethinking ‘Revelation’ as a Precondition for Reinterpreting the Qur’an: A Qur’anic Perspective”, JQS, i:93-114.
[35] For the Arabic text of his complete letter, see the Yemeni newspaper, ath-Thawra, issue 24.11.1419 A.H./11.3.1999.
[36] I will cover Puin’s discoveries and claims in pp. 314-8.
[37] i.e., the skeleton of the text which may show some variations in vowel writing, see further Chapters 9, 10 and 11. We must nevertheless take into consideration that there are over 250,000 manuscripts of the Qur’ān scattered all over the globe [see p. 316 note 38]. When comparing them it is always possible to find copying mistakes here and there; this is an example of the human fallibility, and has been recognised as such by authors who have written extensively on the subject of “unintentional errors.” Such occurrences cannot be used to prove any corruption (تحريف) within the Qur’ān.
[38] In fact Ibn Hibbān has credited this saying to other scholars as well, e.g. Abū Huraira (d. 58 A.H.), Ibrāhīm an-Nakha’ī (d. 96 A.H.), ad-Dahhāk b. al-Muzāhim (d. circa 100 A.H.), al-Hasan al-Basrī (d. 110 A.H.) and Zaid b. Aslam (d. 136 A.H.). [Ibn Hibbān, al-Majrūhūn, i.21-23].




http://rasheedgonzales.wordpress.com...-quranic-text/
Reply

Perseveranze
12-31-2010, 04:27 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Awesome post Sister, was a great read. I may buy this book in the future, just for the sake of knowledge.
Reply

جوري
12-31-2010, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum, Awesome post Sister, was a great read. I may buy this book in the future, just for the sake of knowledge.

There are many morsels in this book that will take very long for me to write out, but Dr. Al'Azami annihilated the baseless charges of those missionaries and raised the stakes-- I'd so love to see a debate between him and Puin which would go down pretty much as those debates with Dr. Deedat with mindless missionaries. It really is an amazing book all around .. but I think Muslims in general really should seek a proper Islamic education not just the mere art of sophistry which is in fact the only weapon of the orientalist!

:w:
Reply

Insaanah
12-31-2010, 05:05 PM
:sl: dearest sister,

Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
If someone has a history of Quranic text the on line version I'd appreciate it, as it gets painstaking to write things out!
It is available online here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/36006748/T...to-Compilation

And it does seem to be copiable.

However, it was a bit slow loading and when changing pages on my computer (possibly due to the ads between the pages). I had to wait a while between pages and not change pages too fast. You can also type the page number into the box at the bottom but it may be 18 pages out from the actual page, due to the preface numbering etc.

I'm not sure if there are pages missing. Some scribd e-books do have pages missing - I got upto page 8 and all the pages were present and correct, perhaps someone with a hard copy of the book can check properly.

:sl:
Reply

جوري
12-31-2010, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
:sl: dearest sister,



It is available online here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/36006748/T...to-Compilation

And it does seem to be copiable.

However, it was a bit slow loading and when changing pages on my computer (possibly due to the ads between the pages). I had to wait a while between pages and not change pages too fast. You can also type the page number into the box at the bottom but it may be 18 pages out from the actual page, due to the preface numbering etc.

I'm not sure if there are pages missing. Some scribd e-books do have pages missing - I got upto page 8 and all the pages were present and correct, perhaps someone with a hard copy of the book can check properly.

:sl:
Baraka Allah feeki sister what a tremendous service..

:wub:
Reply

Seeker1066
12-31-2010, 09:20 PM
Thanks for the link!
Reply

TheRationalizer
01-02-2011, 08:53 AM
Saying 1/5 of the Quran is meaningless without providing evidence made me suspicious. Surely the majority of literate Arabs would notice?
Reply

جوري
01-02-2011, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Saying 1/5 of the Quran is meaningless without providing evidence made me suspicious. Surely the majority of literate Arabs would notice?

That is the orientalists agenda .. and not too absurd from other lines peddled along the 'Moon God' that Muslims worship.. western evangelists can call themselves scholars and say or write anything.. they have a willing audience so why not? Their agenda is self-serving though, It hasn't made a dent in Islam's appeal or Muslim devotion nor changed a word in the noble Quran since its very revelation!

all the best
Reply

TheRationalizer
01-02-2011, 05:23 PM
Sure he may be doing it for money, or his analysis may simply be very flawed, or he might be right. That's what I like about science, a claim has no credibility until others corroborate the assertions based on all of the available evidence.

For me though whether or not the Quran is unchanged is irrelevant. Merely seeing the Quran give permission for men to have sex with their slaves was enough to show me it was authored by one or more 7th century men and not a perfect being with objective morality.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
01-02-2011, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
For me though whether or not the Quran is unchanged is irrelevant. Merely seeing the Quran give permission for men to have sex with their slaves was enough to show me it was authored by one or more 7th century men and not a perfect being with objective morality.
This thread answers your presumptions.

And there was a detailed discussion here. Hope that clears your presumptions.
Reply

TheRationalizer
01-02-2011, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
This thread answers your presumptions.

And there was a detailed discussion here. Hope that clears your presumptions.
I read the long detailed response near the beginning and no, it doesn't come close to answering. I don't think it would be polite of me to hijack this thread by debating it though, and unfortunately the other thread is closed. So this leaves me with the option of starting a new thread on it. However I think that if I started a new thread it would be deleted because someone doesn't like the topic (even though I would be polite) or it would be closed for being a duplicate thread.

It is certainly a subject I would very much enjoy discussing. So, are there any options or is this forum far too repressive to allow me to hold a controversial discussion with you guys?
Reply

جوري
01-02-2011, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Sure he may be doing it for money, or his analysis may simply be very flawed, or he might be right. That's what I like about science, a claim has no credibility until others corroborate the assertions based on all of the available evidence. For me though whether or not the Quran is unchanged is irrelevant. Merely seeing the Quran give permission for men to have sex with their slaves was enough to show me it was authored by one or more 7th century men and not a perfect being with objective morality.

I have often wondered about the source of morality of atheists. If you follow only science as a guide then men by their very nature AREN'T monogamous:

http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~dmacleod/141/l...bar/dunbar.htm

what religion has done is put legal statute on the instinctual nature of many .. So instead of lying and having an affair and bastar d children as we so often find rampant in the west. We have legally binding contracts and responsibilities both emotional and financial that are actually meant to curb animalistic activities that would otherwise occur under the table.

So what is irrelevant here in fact is your opinion and subjective morality. Islam is the only religion that says Marry one if you can't be fair and kind!

all the best
Reply

TheRationalizer
01-03-2011, 09:00 AM
I would be happy to have a discussion about atheist morality with you as long as it is a civilised one, but I think hijacking this thread would be impolite. So if you genuinely wish to discuss it then please start a new thread and feel free to send me a private message with a URL to it so that I can answer your questions.
Reply

جوري
01-03-2011, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
I would be happy to have a discussion about atheist morality with you as long as it is a civilised one, but I think hijacking this thread would be impolite. So if you genuinely wish to discuss it then please start a new thread and feel free to send me a private message with a URL to it so that I can answer your questions.

'Atheist morality' has been extensively discussed you may use the search feature. At this stage with everyone being an adult, there is no swaying opinions with alleged 'politeness' to date I haven't encountered 'polite' atheists and the problem with the matter is that your baseline starts at a different level. You genuinely don't see yourselves as offensive ingrates!

I have pretty much covered all I desired with my previous comment and the link which isn't the first of its kind. The web is riddled with such topics on polygamy in men (animals) by their very biology. If 'nature' dictates that men will behave a certain way when it comes to their animalistic desires, then I do expect the true religion of God to curb, regulate and refine that to a humanistic level to everyone' satisfaction or at least their knowledge.

None of us can help your personal standards, whether or not you agree with what you read. Islam however like any other system isn't run on the exception. Like the fellow who wanted the Quran to speak of kindling fire on the stove rather than firewood, and I don't know if it were you or another fool who wanted to make plural or dual something that can't be by its very name.

If you don't like it, don't be it, but don't come dictating to the rest your own fanciful desires as if gaining you a member or a Muslim matters at all in the scheme of things!

all the best
Reply

TheRationalizer
01-03-2011, 02:41 PM
As I said, hijacking this thread would be impolite so I shan't outline the numerous errors you have made in your post. But I will add that if you talk to atheists like they are disgusting animals I am not surprised that you are yet to find one who is polite to you - except for the fact that I have been polite with you on every occasion despite not receiving the same courtesy from you.

All the best to you too, except with genuine sincerity :-)
Reply

جوري
01-03-2011, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
As I said, hijacking this thread would be impolite so I shan't outline the numerous errors you have made in your post. But I will add that if you talk to atheists like they are disgusting animals I am not surprised that you are yet to find one who is polite to you - except for the fact that I have been polite with you on every occasion despite not receiving the same courtesy from you. All the best to you too, except with genuine sincerity :-)

I can take the thread to the direction of my choosing, except in fact I haven't. I have merely replied to sophomoric allegations (it isn't 'impoliteness' when it is a fact!) , and I remind you that before you graced us on this thread all together most of the replies here were provided by me! Properly sourced, scholarly referenced, intelligibly discussed.. again, yet to see an atheist carry a dialogue beyond tea pots and unicorns which makes it all a waste of everyone's time, certainly I can imagine with the brevity of life that you'd conceive of better things to do!

I have seen no contributions from you save for some occult thunderous knowledge that seems to be obvious to only you as every time you attempt to share something, nothing beyond a silly subjective view spews out which I imagine is the genuine reason you prefer another thread all together to steer this dialogue into grounds that make you a bit safer and give you a tad more leverage provided school aged children take interest in what you have to say of course!

all the best
Reply

TheRationalizer
01-03-2011, 03:04 PM
Just to be clear, I meant it would be impolite of me to hijack this thread by responding to your post in detail.
Reply

جوري
01-03-2011, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Just to be clear, I meant it would be impolite of me to hijack this thread by responding to your post in detail.

whatever!.............
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
HeartHijab.com | Hijab Sale | Pound Shop | UK Wholesale Certified Face Masks, Hand Sanitiser & PPE

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!