Mathematical Structure?

[mattqatsi]

Hey, I've been looking around at the different prominent religious texts and I've been trying to find mathematical structures in them. I've found a bunch so far, but in order not to push my own faith, I won't give examples of some of the larger instances. I've found what could be amounted to "mathematical seals" underneath the texts.
However, I'll talk about a verse that I think both of our faiths agree on.
This is kind of a bad example but the one I want to give would start too much controversy and I'm looking for answers not trouble, I might give an excerpt later if needed.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

This verse has a heptadic (sevenfold) structure.

This verse has 7 Hebrew words
The number of letters equals 28 (28 / 4 = 7)
The first three words, the first phrase, have 14 (2 7s) letters
The last 4 words, the second phrase, have 14 (2 7s) letters
4th and 5th words have 7 letters
6th and 7th words have 7 letters
Three key words (God, heavens, earth) have 14 letters (2 7s)
Remaining four words have 14 (2 7s) letters
The middle word is the shortest with two letters. However, in combination with the word to the left or right it totals 7 letters.
The numeric value of the first, middle and last letters is 133 (133/19= 7)
Numeric value of the first and last letters of all 7 words is 1393 (1393/199=7)

That's actually a terrible example, but I hope you get a general idea of what I'm trying to get at. I can provide a totally different totally better example if needed.

But what I'm asking is, has there been any research done like this on the Qu'ran in mathematics? The last two points better describe a fraction of what I'm looking for, but I want to find the mathematical perfection in scripture.

Thanks, I hope that made sense.

[PouringRain]

Try a simple google search and you can find info on the mathematical structure in the Qur'an.

[Ramadhan]

There are literally countless mathematical miracles of the Qur'an, and they have been explored extensively in a thread in this forum. I have been trying to find it using the search option, but unfortunately it did not come up with it.

But here's some of the mathematical miracles:


The statement of "seven heavens" is repeated seven times. "The creation of the heavens (khalq as-samawat)" is also repeated seven times.

"Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12.

The number of repetitions of the words "plant" and "tree" is the same: 26

The word "payment or reward" is repeated 117 times, while the expression "forgiveness" (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Qur'an, is repeated exactly twice that amount, 234 times.

When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "they said."

The number of times the words, "world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhira) are repeated is also the same: 115

The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).

The word faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times throughout the Qur'an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).

The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.

The word "zakah" is repeated in the Qur'an 32 times and the number of repetitions of the word "blessing" (barakah) is also 32.

The expression "the righteous" (al-abraar) is used 6 times but "the wicked" (al-fujjaar) is used half as much, i.e., 3 times.

The number of times the words "Summer-hot" and "winter-cold" are repeated is the same: 5.

The words "wine" (khamr) and "intoxication" (saqara) are repeated in the Qur'an the same number of times: 6

The number of appearances of the words "mind" and "light" is the same: 49.

The words "tongue" and "sermon" are both repeated 25 times.

The words "benefit" and "corrupt" both appear 50 times.

"Reward" (ajr) and "action" (fail) are both repeated 107 times.

"Love" (al-mahabbah) and "obedience" (al-ta'ah) also appear the same number of times: 83

The words "refuge" (maseer) and "for ever" (abadan) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 28.

The words "disaster" (al-musibah) and "thanks" (al-shukr) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 75.

"Sun" (shams) and "light" (nur) both appear 33 times in the Qur'an.

* In counting the word "light" only the simple forms of the word were included.

The number of appearances of "right guidance" (al-huda) and "mercy" (al-rahma) is the same: 79

The words "trouble" and "peace" are both repeated 13 times in the Qur'an.

The words "man" and "woman" are also employed equally: 23 times.
Will they not ponder the Qur’an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.
(Qur’an, 4:82)

The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the egg and sperm in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.

"Treachery" (khiyanah) is repeated 16 times, while the number of repetitions of the word "foul" (khabith) is 16.

"Human being" is used 65 times: the sum of the number of references to the stages of man's creation is the same: i.e.

Human being 65

Soil (turab) 17

Drop of Sperm (nutfah) 12

Embryo ('alaq) 6

A half formed lump of flesh (mudghah) 3

Bone ('idham) 15

Flesh (lahm) 12

TOTAL 65

The word "salawat" appear five times in the Qur'an, and Allah has commanded man to perform the prayer (salat) five times a day.

The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.

[Ramadhan]

The "19" number:


1- The first verse 1:1 known as "Bismillaah" consists of 19 letters (using the old Arabic alphabet).

2-This verse was revealed to Muhammed (pbuh) after 74:30, which states "Over it is 19" not a coincidence.

3-The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is 19 X 6.

4-The number of letters in the Qur'aan is 330733 letters, or 19 X 17407.

5-The Bismillaah occurs in the Quran 114 times, despite its absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) and 114 = 19 X 6.

6-From the missing Bismillaah of Sura 9 to the extra Bismillaah of Sura 27, there are precisely 19 Suras.

7-It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27

(9+10+11+12+......+26+27) is 342, or 19 X 18

8-This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Bismillaahs of sura 27. and 342 = 19 X 18

9-The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words.

10-This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters, & 76=19 X 4.

11-Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of 19 verses.

12-This first Chronological sura is placed at top the last 19 suras.

13-The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of 19 words.

14-14 different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of "Quranic Initials" (Such as A.L.M., of 2:1) and prefix 29 suras.These numbers add up to 14+14+29=57 19 X 3

15-The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic initials occur is

2+3+7+....+50+68=822, and 822 +14 (14 sets of initials)=836 =19 X 44

16-Between the first intialed Sura (Sura 2) and the last intialed Sura (Sura 68) there are 38 un-initialed suras, 38=19 X 2

17-Between the first and last initialed sura there are 19 sets of alternating "initialed" and "uninitialed" Suras.

18-The Quran mention 30 different whole numbers throughout,

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,19,20,30,40,50,60,70,80 ,99,100,200,300,1000,2000, 3000,5000,50,000, & 100,000.

The sum of these numbers is 162146 = 19 X 8534

19-The word "Quran" occurs in the Quran 58 times, with one of them referring to "another Quran" in 10:15, therefore, if excluded, the frequency of "this Quran" n the Quran is 57, or 19 X 3

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[جوري]

not only that but Islamic science is actually taught in university math classes:

Islamic

Inheritance Mathematics

Description:

This lesson describes how a woman’s estate is divided among her beneficiaries according to Islamic inheritance law. The method involves adding and subtracting fractions which represent the parts of the woman’s estate, keeping in mind that sons receive twice as much as daughters, and a stranger’s share must be paid first.
Curriculum Objectives:

To reinforce the skills of fraction addition, subtraction and multiplication.
To introduce students to complex problem solving.
To expose students to a mathematical process from a non-European culture.
Key Words:

algebra
inheritance
fractions
problem solving
representations
Suggested Use:

Islamic Inheritance Mathematics could be used in a basic skills mathematics, prealgebra or algebra course to use complex problem solving to reinforce the concepts and skills of fraction addition, subtraction and multiplication.

ISLAMIC INHERITANCE

MATHEMATICS

A major Arab mathematician named Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi wrote an influential textbook in about 820 called Hisab al-jabr w’al-muqabala (Calculation by Restoration and Reduction) that is known today as the Algebra. This book was the starting point for Arab work in algebra, and it is credited for giving the subject its name. Al-Khwarizmi was probably born in Soviet Central Asia but he did most of his work in algebra in Baghdad, where he was an astronomer and head of the library at the House of Wisdom.
Al-Kwarizmi was a Muslim and the second half of his book Algebra contains problems about the Islamic law of inheritance. According to the law, when a woman dies her husband receives one-quarter of her estate, and the rest is divided among her children so that a son receives twice as much as a daughter. If the woman chooses to leave money to a stranger, the stranger cannot receive more than one-third of the estate without the approval of the heirs. If only some of the heirs approve, the approving heirs must pay the stranger out of their own shares the amount that exceeds one-third of the estate. Whether approved by all heirs or not, the stranger’s share must be paid before the rest is shared out among the heirs.
Here is an example problem from Al-Kwarizmi’s Algebra:
A woman dies leaving a husband, a son, and three daughters. She also leaves a bequest consisting of 1/8 + 1/7 of her estate to a stranger. She leaves $224,000. Calculate the shares of her estate that go to each of her beneficiaries.
Solution: The stranger receives 1/8 + 1/7 = 15/56 of the estate, leaving 41/56 to be shared out among the family.
The husband receives one-quarter of what remains, or 1/4 of 41/56 = 41/224.
The son and the three daughters receive their shares in the ratio 2:1:1:1 so the son’s share is two fifths of the estate after the stranger and husband have been given their bequests and each daughter’s share is one fifth. (2+1+1+1=5).
If the total estate is $224,000, the shares received by each beneficiary will be:
Stranger: 15/56 of $224,000 = $60,000.
Husband: 41/224 of $224,000 = $41,000.
Son: 2/5 of ($224,000 - 101,000) = $49,200.
Each daughter: 1/5 of ($224,000 - 101,000) = $24,600.
TOTAL = $224,000.

YOUR PROJECT:

1. Solve the following Islamic law inheritance problem.
A woman’s estate totals $72,000. She dies leaving a husband, two sons and two daughters. In her will, she leaves a bequest of 1/9 + 1/6 of her estate to a stranger. Calculate how much of her estate each of her beneficiaries will receive.
2. Write out all of your calculations.
3. Check to make sure your beneficiary sums equal the total estate.
References: Islamic Inheritance Mathematics

Gullberg, Jan. (1997). Mathematics: From the Birth of Numbers. New York: W.W. Norton & Company.
Joseph, George Gheverghese. (1991). The Crest of the Peacock: Non-European Roots of Mathematics. London: Penguin Books.
Nelson, D., Joseph, G. and Williams, J. (1993). Multicultural Mathematics: Teaching Mathematics from a Global Perspective. New York: Oxford University Press.

San Joaquin Delta College Basic Mathematics Program Communications Skills Division 5151 Pacific Avenue Stockton, CA 95207 Tel. (209) 954-5252 Division Chairperson: Mary Ann Cox Division Secretary: Joann Hymes Designed by Patricia Donovan http://www.deltacollege.edu/dept/basicmath/Islamic.htm

To Mods:

can a mod find me Ansar's thread on the laws in combinatorics The search feature here is ridiculous makes me have no desire to answer these newbies anew and I can't blame them for asking the same questions if I can't sort through forum archives..

:w:

[Ramadhan]

The Miracles of Adam and Jesus pbut (from http://www.quranwonders.com/2009/10/...adam-and-jesus)



The miracle of Adam & Jesus
Submitted by Abduldaem Al-Kaheel on October 21, 2009 - 21:32

As is well known, Jesus Christ (pbuh) is one of the most popular and controversial personalities in history. To some, he is seen as God, to others he is the son of God. Muslims in particular, however, view Jesus Christ as a messenger of God, who was sent to spread God’s word and obey his commands, as did Moses (pbuh), Noah (pbuh), Abraham (pbuh) and those who were sent before him, as well as Muhammad (pbuh) who was sent after him. Muslims have a most honourable regard for Jesus, and belief in him is a condition of Islam.

While it may come as a surprise to some, the Qur’an is in fact a great source for anyone wishing to learn about Jesus Christ! The Qur’an speaks with utmost respect and beauty of this Holy Messenger and his mother Mary.

There is no doubt that there are people who are sceptical about the Qur’an and consider it the written word of Muhammad, and it is the duty of a Muslim to acknowledge and respect all opinions, so long as they can be logically and fairly proven.

There are also people who deny the Prophets and the miracles that came with them. Among those are the miracles of the creation of Adam and Jesus Christ. God's response to those rejecting such miracles is: (Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.) [Al-Imran: 59].



Chapter 3 verse 59 of the Holy Quran



In examining this verse, we notice that God Almighty tells us that Jesus Christ, like Adam (pbuh), was created without a father. Similarly, both were Prophets, and both presented a miracle in the way in which their exemplary morals and behaviour were different from those of ordinary people. This is the Islamic argument; that Jesus cannot be regarded as divine simply because he had no father, because if that holds true, then Adam must also be considered divine as he had neither a father nor a mother.

But the question is: How can this verse really convince someone who simply rejects the Qur’an as the true word of God? After all, a sceptic has every right to be sceptical, but along with this scepticism comes a right upon him to seek proof in order to erase any doubt beyond question! So is there any physical proof for the truth of these words? Is there something, within this verse, that can tangibly prove the proposed similarities between Jesus and Adam? No judgment is made in the words to follow; this is left for the reader to contemplate.

What is interesting is that this connection between Jesus and Adam is not merely confined to the meaning of the verse as explained above. This connection even exists with regards to the various mentions of both Jesus and Adam in the Qur’an.

To explain further, if we look for the word ‘Jesus’ in the Qur’an, we find that it is mentioned 25 times in the Qur’an. Similarly, if we look at the mention of ‘Adam’ in the Qur’an, we find, again, that it is mentioned exactly 25 times!

It is only natural for an atheist, probably even a Muslim, to consider this a coincidence. Therefore, we must look further, and see whether God Almighty has deposited in this verse any consistent numerical symmetry that could destroy any possibility of coincidence.

Now, reflecting on the various verses where Jesus and Adam are mentioned, we find that the previous verse – (Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam) - is the only verse in the Qur’an where both Jesus and Adam were mentioned collectively. In no other verse do the two names meet; this gives the verse a pivotal importance in our discussion.

Furthermore, and amazingly enough, the number of times the word Adam was mentioned from the beginning of the Qur’an up to and including this crucial verse is 7 times, and the number of times Jesus was mentioned from the beginning of the Qur’an up to and including this verse is also 7 times!

That's not all! The 19th occurrence of the word Adam appears in chapter 19 "Mary". At the same time, the 19th occurrence of the word Jesus appears also in chapter 19 "Mary"!

To better illustrate this beautiful consistency, each of the 25 verses mentioning Jesus and Adam are listed below in their order of appearance in the Qur’an:

Word "Adam" in the Holy Quran





Word "Jesus" in the Holy Quran

The above facts demonstrate the accurateness of the Qur’an in its depiction of Jesus and Adam, not only in terms of meaning, but also in terms of context and numerical symmetry. Both prophets are mentioned 25 times, and the sole place where they meet together is at the point where both happen to be mentioned for precisely the seventh time. In addition, anyone who reads the Qur’an will note that this is not a deliberate play on words to simply preserve consistency; meaning and context are never lost throughout the verses of this Holy Book.

Finally, this is simply one out of thousands of similar examples that have been discovered in the Qur’an, and the question is whether all these can come by chance? Or is it in fact God Almighty who preserved this perfect balance? This is left to the reader’s discretion, but regardless the answer, the ever-present challenge of the Qur’an to all of mankind and angels still resonates today: (Say: If the whole of mankind and the Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.) [Al-Isra’: 88].

[Ramadhan]

More on the Mathematical miracles...



Word Quran & Chapter "Human"
Submitted by Admin on September 9, 2009 - 22:24

In this article I will present an interesting & conspicuous phenomena related to the occurrences of the words "Human" & "Quran" in the Holy Quran. The word "Human" (الانسن) appears in all forms (definite & indefinite) 65 times in the Quran. At the same time we see that the word "Quran" (قرآن) appears in all forms (definite & indefinite) 65 times up to and before chapter 76 named "Human". The interseting thing is that the number 65 is the 46th composite number in universe & 46 is human chromosome number that was discovered in the year 1955 by modern microscope technology. When it comes to composite numbers: they are natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5..) that are divisible by other numbers than themselves and one. The first few composite numbers are 4, 6, 8, 9, 10..

It is worth mentioning that composite numbers & prime numbers are the main two branches of numbers in universe and they are main building blocks of the Holy Quran (as can be seen on other articles on this site).

There are other interesting phenomena concerning the word "Quran" (قرآن) and human creation:

» The word "Quran" appears only one time in chapter 76 "Human". It appears in verse number 23 of this chapter. Interestingly this verse is the only verse in the whole Quran that contains the word "Quran" and, at same time, numbered 23. The special thing about number 23 is that it is equal to human haploid chromosome number (chromosomes come in pairs so humans have 23 pairs, i.e. 46 chromosomes in total). This is verse number 23 of chapter 76 "Human" :



Chapter 76 verse 23

"Lo! We, have revealed unto thee the Qur'an, a revelation"

» This verse is also the 9th verse from the end of this chapter. Interestingly, number 23 is the 9th prime number in universe. Prime numbers: are natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5..) that are divisible only by themselves and one. The first few primes are 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13..

» This same verse is the 65th verse from the beginning of the Quran that contains the word "Quran" (القرءان). Again, 65 is the 46th composite number in universe. This phenomenon is consistent with the fact that the first verse of this chapter (a verse which contains the word "Human") is the 46th verse from the beginning of the Quran that has the word "Human" in. it Again, 46 is equal to human chromsome number.

» Chapter 76 "Human" is the 35th chapter in the Holy Quran that contains the word "Quran". The 23rd composite number in universe is number 35 ! Even more interesting is the fact the 35th chapter of the Holy Quran is named "Creator " (فاطر).

» The word "Quran (القرءان) in verse 23 of chapter 76 "Human being" is the 199th word in chapter (when counting conjunctive waws "و" as seperate word, as some researchers suggest). Number 199 is the 46th prime number in universe and it is equal to the number of Alef "ا" letters in this chapter. Letter Alef was the first revealed letter of the Holy Quran and it signifies many mathematical wonders in the Quranic text.

» And in order to increase our confidence in the centrality of the word Quran in this context I would like to present the following table that shows that this word is positioned at key position in chapter 76 "Human" (الإنسن) . When we extrat the words that begin with any letter of the four different letters making the word "Human" (الإنسن): letters Alef, Lam, Noon, Sen in this chapter we see that there are 46 such words before the word Quran (قرءان) in verse 23 and that there are 23 such words after this same word!

The words that start with a letter of the letters that make the word "Human" (الإنسن) in chapter 76 "Human"

Do not all of these phenomena point to an intelligent source ?! God almighty who has revealed the Quran unto Muhammad (pbuh) 1430 years ago is the only entity who:

» Could have known that humans have 46 chromsomes.

» Inspired a powerful and flawless Arabic text as the Quran.

» Could arrange the entire Quran according to mathematical systems.

For all the people who maintain that we came into existence by mere chances and by random processes God has an answer:

"Or were they created without there being anything, or are they the creators?"
(Holy Quran - The Mount 52:35)

أَمْ خُلِقُوا مِنْ غَيْرِ شَيْءٍ أَمْ هُمُ الْخَالِقُونَ
(52) الطور - الآيه 35

[Ramadhan]

Maybe the mods can find the thread that discussed the mathematical miracles of the Qur'an and make it sticky?

It would be beneficial for all Insya Allah.

[mattqatsi]

There are literally countless mathematical miracles of the Qur'an, and they have been explored extensively in a thread in this forum. I have been trying to find it using the search option, but unfortunately it did not come up with it.

But here's some of the mathematical miracles:

The word "salawat" appear five times in the Qur'an, and Allah has commanded man to perform the prayer (salat) five times a day.

The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.

Okay so all of this is totally not what I meant. Because honestly, please do not take offense at this, but this... %95+ of what you mentioned aren't even remotely close to "mathematical miracles." I'll post a real example of a "mathematical miracle" from my Greek Scriptures in a bit (I won't mention where It is from unless asked.) I mean, I'm not dissing the Koran or anything, but, just look at this for yourself.

The word "salawat" appear five times in the Qur'an, and Allah has commanded man to perform the prayer (salat) five times a day.

Okay sure I chose an easy one to pick on, but most of what you listed looks exactly like this. A "mathematical miracle" is something that would be impossible (or at least close to it) for a human to write. I would want evidence that the text isn't just a cleverly-worded poem. For instance, (please do NOT take this to mean that I can write anything equivalent the the Qur'ran, I am not saying that) but I could write a book and make sure that a word only appears 5 times. I used to write poetry that had to be a certain amount of lines:

The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words.

All haikus have 5 lines, does that mean there is a divine force of 5 behind them?
Sorry, I didn't come to be rude but most of those reasons are not reasons at all. Some of the points like the ocean/land thing are interesting, but that does not necessarily imply Divine Inspiration.

I hope you don't see this as haughtiness but rather realistic skepticism. I know that Islam sees the Jewish and Christian Scriptures as possibly once somewhat accurate but that they have been perverted. Even though I would argue that in general, that's not what this thread is about. I think it would be reasonable, at least from my perspective, to look at the inner workings of passages to see if they have the seal of God on them confirming their authenticity. I'll explain in my next post.

[mattqatsi]

These were kind of for my own notes so I hope you understand the latter half.
This is a specific 12-verse section in the Bible.
This passage has often been called out in Biblical circles because it was not found in some of the earlier manuscripts, only in some of the later ones. Unfortunately they didn't look into the mathematical structure of it. It's cool how when certain areas of Scripture are called into question, He verifies some of them through seals placed on (under?) them long ago.

᾿Αναστὰς δὲ πρωῒ πρώτῃ σαββάτου ἐφάνη πρῶτον Μαρίᾳ τῇ Μαγδαληνῇ, ἀφ᾿ ἧς ἐκβεβλήκει ἑπτὰ δαιμόνια.
ἐκείνη πορευθεῖσα ἀπήγγειλε τοῖς μετ᾿ αὐτοῦ γενομένοις, πενθοῦσι καὶ κλαίουσι·
κἀκεῖνοι ἀκούσαντες ὅτι ζῇ καὶ ἐθεάθη ὑπ᾿ αὐτῆς, ἠπίστησαν.
Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα δυσὶν ἐξ αὐτῶν περιπατοῦσιν ἐφανερώθη ἐν ἑτέρᾳ μορφῇ, πορευομένοις εἰς ἀγρόν.
κἀκεῖνοι ἀπελθόντες ἀπήγγειλαν τοῖς λοιποῖς· οὐδὲ ἐκείνοις ἐπίστευσαν.
῞Υστερον ἀνακειμένοις αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἕνδεκα ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ὠνείδισε τὴν ἀπιστίαν αὐτῶν καὶ σκληροκαρδίαν, ὅτι τοῖς θεασαμένοις αὐτὸν ἐγηγερμένον οὐκ ἐπίστευσαν.
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· πορευθέντες εἰς τὸν κόσμον ἅπαντα κηρύξατε τὸ εὐαγγέλιον πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει.
ὁ πιστεύσας καὶ βαπτισθεὶς σωθήσεται, ὁ δὲ ἀπιστήσας κατακριθήσεται.
σημεῖα δὲ τοῖς πιστεύσασι ταῦτα παρακολουθήσει· ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου δαιμόνια ἐκβαλοῦσι, γλώσσαις λαλήσουσι καιναῖς·
ὄφεις ἀροῦσι· κἂν θανάσιμόν τι πίωσιν, οὐ μὴ αὐτοὺς βλάψῃ· ἐπὶ ἀρρώστους χεῖρας ἐπιθήσουσι, καὶ καλῶς ἕξουσιν.
῾Ο μὲν οὖν Κύριος μετὰ τὸ λαλῆσαι αὐτοῖς ἀνελήμφθη εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ ἐκάθισεν ἐκ δεξιῶν τοῦ Θεοῦ.
ἐκεῖνοι δὲ ἐξελθόντες ἐκήρυξαν πανταχοῦ, τοῦ Κυρίου συνεργοῦντος καὶ τὸν λόγον βεβαιοῦντος διὰ τῶν ἐπακολουθούντων σημείων. ἀμήν.

These are literally not even half of what there is for this one Passage:


1. 175 words (which comes out even when divided by 7, there are 25 sevens of words.)
2. 98 Individual vocabulary words (14 sevens)
3. 133 Individual forms of the words (19 sevens)

--The language is alpha-numeric, which means each letter has a number attached to it. It's like A=1 B=2 C=3 etc. Each letter (and therefore each word) has a numeric value attached to it.--

4. The numeric value of the whole passage is 103,663 (14,809 sevens)
5. Numeric value of the 133 forms -> 89,663 (12,809 sevens)
6. Out of the 133 forms, only 112 (16 sevens) occur once
7. The 98 vocab words have 553 letters (79 sevens)
8. 294 (42 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
9. 259 (37 sevens) of those 553 are vowels
10. Out of the 98 vocab words, 84 (12 sevens) are found in the rest of that book
11. 14 (2 sevens) are only found in this specific passage
12. Out of the 98 individual vocab words, 42 (6 sevens) are used by the key Leader of the faith during His Speech
13. 56 (8 sevens) are not part of His vocabulary in this passage
14. 56 words (8 sevens) are used in His Speech
15. The rest of the passage has 119 words (17 sevens)

The 175 words in the passage (25 sevens) split into three natural divisions
[1.] V. 9-11 → 35 words (5 sevens)
[2.] V. 12-18 → 105 words (15 sevens)
[3.] V. 19-20 → 35 words (5 sevens)

[2.]
→ [V. 12] → 14 words (2 sevens)
→ [V. 13-15] (up to speech) → 35 words (5 sevens)
→ [V. 15-18] (just the speech) → 56 words (8 sevens)

Numeric Values
103,663 (14,809 sevens)

[V. 9-11] → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
[V. 12-20] → 86,450 (12,350 sevens)

[9 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)
[10 → 5418] (774 sevens)
[11 → 11,705] (1,685 sevens)

[V.10]
First word (ekeinos) → 98 (14 sevens)
Last word (klaio) → 791 (113 sevens)
Remaining → 4529 (647 sevens)

133 Forms (19 sevens)
When laid out alphabetically
First word is 224 (32 sevens)
Last word is 1134 (162 sevens)

175 total words/numeric values split into 4 categories:
Units (1 figure. i.e. '5')
Tens (2 figures. i.e. '17')
Hundreds (3 figures. i.e. '234')
Thousands (4 figures. i.e. '1897')

Two extremes (units/thousands) → 42 words (6 sevens)
Two inside ones (tens/hundreds) → 133 words (19 sevens)

Letters
V. 9-12 → 35 words (5 sevens)
14 (2 sevens) begin with a vowel
21 (3 sevens) begin with consonant
21 (3 sevens) end with vowel
14 (2 sevens) end with consonant
7 begin and end with a vowel
84 (12 sevens) syllables

Numeric Value of V. 9-12 → 17,213 (2,459 sevens)
When laid out, grab every 7th value of these 35 words: [1,400] [386] [1,171] [1,247] [857]
Adds to 5,061 (723 sevens)
Only one is divisible by 7 (1,400 → 200 sevens)

With the whole passage (175 words → 25 sevens) laid out, the values of every 25th word are [791] [21] [591] [1533] [21] [651] [1113]
All but one are divisible by 7 (591)

DONE

These are not even half of the values that I have found, there are more for this one passage as well as similar results with many other passages in this Holy Book (The specific Book, not the full Bible)
I hope that makes sense, that was more what I was looking for, the gears underneath the text

[mattqatsi]

Also, out of curiosity, how and why did God's Holy Number change?
I mean, it's shown in the very first verse and all, all throughout the Torah. What makes 19 better than 7 for God to change His number into that?

[جوري]

Also, out of curiosity, how and why did God's Holy Number change?

You have heard of Asma'a Allah alhousna? God has more than one name.. Allah doesn't equal change in God's name, simply ask Arab Christians or Jews.

I mean, it's shown in the very first verse and all, all throughout the Torah. What makes 19 better than 7 for God to change His number into that?

Who said 19 or 7 or 22 is of more importance than the other? You asked of mathematical and numerical marvels and they were given you, it doesn't mean one is more significant. It simply means they exist!


all the best

[Ramadhan]

Ah it's pretty clear now what the OP true intent by creating this thread.
he was asking "innocently" about the miracles of the Qur'an and yet all along his intention was to list down "miracles" of greek version of the bible, which IF true, is only a variation of number 7.
Meanwhile he has dismissed the whole variety of mathematical miracles of the Qur'an without addressing them at all.
And what I listed is only a small fractions of mathematical miracles found so far in the Qur'an.

I don't think he would even take my advice to study how the Qur'an was revealed, over 23 years, when most verses were revealed to address specific issue during specific times to an illiterate man 1,400 years ago, and yet contain such stunning mathematical precisions.

To moderators:
Please just close this thread because I suspect that no matter how the muslim members invest time and energy to provide explanations and unbelieavable amounts of evidence has been presented to him, he has made up his mind.
Also, promotion of greek bible is not allowed in this forum, let alone in this section.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Interesting thread! :)

[mattqatsi]

Ah it's pretty clear now what the OP true intent by creating this thread.
he was asking "innocently" about the miracles of the Qur'an and yet all along his intention was to list down "miracles" of greek version of the bible, which IF true, is only a variation of number 7.

NO. That was not it, don't judge before you know. I was looking for mathematical miracles in the Qur'ran but I didn't describe what I was looking for well enough, so I had to use an example. I tried using one that we both agree about without bringing this up, but you misunderstood it and brought up mathematical patterns, not miracles. Please do not jump to conclusions, I brought in the Greek only to better explain what I'm looking for.

Meanwhile he has dismissed the whole variety of mathematical miracles of the Qur'an without addressing them at all.
And what I listed is only a small fractions of mathematical miracles found so far in the Qur'an.

I dismissed most of them because they're the same thing basically. I'm not saying that the Qur'an doesn't have mathematical miracles, but that these weren't anything too special to call Divine. I hope you can see that, if not, I can go through each and every single one and explain how those are simple patterns that are pretty cool, but nothing to determine its authenticity.

I don't think he would even take my advice to study how the Qur'an was revealed, over 23 years, when most verses were revealed to address specific issue during specific times to an illiterate man 1,400 years ago, and yet contain such stunning mathematical precisions.

Why are you so judgmental and assuming things you don't know? I am studying how it was formed. I am even enrolled in an Understanding Islam course at the SunniPath Academy for this summer. I want to learn but can't if people shut me down for probing skeptically.

Please just close this thread because I suspect that no matter how the muslim members invest time and energy to provide explanations and unbelieavable amounts of evidence has been presented to him, he has made up his mind.
Also, promotion of greek bible is not allowed in this forum, let alone in this section.

If I was promoting the Greek Bible like you assume, I would tell you the passage where it was from. But I didn't, especially since it stirs up the waters with Islamic beliefs a little. I am using it as an example of what I am trying to find in the Qur'an.

[جوري]

NO. That was not it, don't judge before you know. I was looking for mathematical miracles in the Qur'ran but I didn't describe what I was looking for well enough, so I had to use an example. I tried using one that we both agree about without bringing this up, but you misunderstood it and brought up mathematical patterns, not miracles. Please do not jump to conclusions, I brought in the Greek only to better explain what I'm looking for.

What mathematical miracles do you perceive there are in the bible and how in your mind do you perceive them superior to those found in other texts religious or not.. shouldn't you first establish the legitimacy of the bible, textual integrity and proper scholarship before you jump ahead to 'miracles'?

I dismissed most of them because they're the same thing basically. I'm not saying that the Qur'an doesn't have mathematical miracles, but that these weren't anything too special to call Divine. I hope you can see that, if not, I can go through each and every single one and explain how those are simple patterns that are pretty cool, but nothing to determine its authenticity.

in which ways is the bible authentic or Jesus 'god'?
The missionaries will say that Ezra 3:8 The same person is called by the nickname for Yehoshua/Joshua...Yeshua/Jesus.
The Reply is The verse says "In the second year after thei arrival at the House of G-d, at Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel, son of Shealteil and Jeshua son of Jozadak, and the rest of thier brother priests and Levites, and all who had come from the captivity to Jerusalem, as their first step announted levites from the age of twenty and upward to supervise the work of the House of the L-RD." (JPS) Notice that the person named Jeshua is son of Jozadak and not Mary, Joseph, or the "Holy Spirit". Even if this persons name is Joshua and his nick name is Jeshua, that only proves that it is common to call people named Joshua by the Aramaic Jeshua in the time of the Second Temple. That in no way proves that Jesus was the Messiah, only that Jesus' name came from the Aramaic Jeshua.
Please read verse 9 also. You will notice that the Joshua/Jeshua in question has sons. Jesus did not have sons (or any children) according to the NT. Therefore, this does not refer to Jesus.
Source: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/P...gs/ezra3v8.htm

Why are you so judgmental and assuming things you don't know? I am studying how it was formed. I am even enrolled in an Understanding Islam course at the SunniPath Academy for this summer. I want to learn but can't if people shut me down for probing skeptically.

Is sunnipath a legitimate site place to seek Islamic education? and even if they were how has this education helped you? you seem confused about your religion and other people's religion still by the rudimentary style of your question and your inability to defend your own argument!

If I was promoting the Greek Bible like you assume, I would tell you the passage where it was from. But I didn't, especially since it stirs up the waters with Islamic beliefs a little. I am using it as an example of what I am trying to find in the Qur'an.

lol.. ok Good luck with all of that.. I personally don't mind the promotion.. go ahead hit us with your best!

[جوري]

although I don't personally subscribe to 'numerical miracles' let me demonstrate to the reader how it is that you can establish a numerical marvel..

let's take the questioner here and I'll highlight the area of interest and comment on it:

Name of Questioner

Mario - Italy

Title

Concept of Seven Skies in Islam

Question

What is the concept of seven skies in Islam? Where does the first one start?

Date

28/Oct/2003

Topic

The Unseen

Answer

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

First of all, we would like to stress that Allah Almighty is the Sole Creator of the universe including the heavens and the earth. Along the course of centuries, man has pondered over the universe and tried to discover its hidden secrets. Many concepts about the cosmos developed but they were subject to change later on.

Responding to your question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Garden Grove, California, states the following:

“Seven skies are mentioned in the Qur’an in many places. It is interesting that the word “saba` samawat” also occurs seven times in the Qur’an. (See Al-Baqarah 2:29; Al-Israa’ 17:44; Al-Mu’minun 23:86; Fussilat 41:12; At-Talaq 65:12; Al-Mulk 67:3; Nuh 71:15.) Only Allah knows the real nature of these seven skies. Maulana Mawdudi in his tafseer (explanation) of the Qur’an says:

“It is difficult to explain precisely what is meant by the ‘seven heavens.’

In all ages, man has tried, with the help of observation and speculation to conceptualize the ‘heavens’, i.e., that which lies beyond and above the earth. As we know, the concepts that have thus developed have constantly changed. Hence, it would be improper to tie the meaning of these words of the Qur’an to any one of these numerous concepts.

What might be broadly inferred from this statement is that either Allah has divided the universe beyond earth into seven distinct spheres, or that this earth is located in that part of the universe which consists of seven different spheres.”

(Towards Understanding the Qur’an, translated by Zafar Ishaq Ansari, vol. 1, p. 58, note no. 34.)

From the Hadith (especially the hadiths concerning Al-Mi`raj) we learn that the first heaven is the one that is closest to the earth. So the order begins from the earth and the highest heaven is the seventh heaven.”

Source: www.pakistanlink.net

Finally, we recommend you to track the contents of the following URL in your browser:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~azma/SevenHeavens.htm

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to write back!

May Allah guide you to the straight path, and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen.

Read more: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...#ixzz0oPHLXDWF

now commenting on the part in red and given the history of the Quran's revelation over a period of two decades, we find that:

laws behind combinatorics, the probability of a word occurring a specific number of times in the text decreasing as the text grows longer, as the number of possibilities increases rapidly. That means if you took a book that was 20 000 pages, and the word night was mentioned exactly as many times as day, it would be far more astonishing than if you found the same thing in a single page report. Also, if the word repetitions are small, then there is a greater chance that it was intentionally done that way. But if the repetition number is bigger, it is practically impossible.

now super-impose the probability of seven heavens mentioned seven times to flow in style, context, lyricism, syntax and still have the Quran fulfill its original purpose which is be a spiritual guidance for mankind, as well contrast it to the life of he who reveled it giving us two completely different style texts Quran vs. hadith while managing a Muslim state both politically, economically, socially, spiritually without the need to archive strategically the placement of said verses the numerology whether of 7 heavens or 5 prayers etc. etc. isn't what establishes value and validity of the Quran although it is an added bonus.

That is how you establish a numerical marvel fellow, not merely asserting that it exists with some bravado and expecting folks to be awed and amazed..

we are certainly awed and amazed but for other reasons and I am not sure any of them reflect well on you!

all the best

[mattqatsi]

shouldn't you first establish the legitimacy of the bible, textual integrity and proper scholarship before you jump ahead to 'miracles'?

I have for myself and for those who choose to listen, but that is not totally relevant to the question I was asking. Besides, if miracles are found, shouldn't that encourage a deeper look at the text (any text in general)? Miracles don't have to be the last step or just something used to support an argument, sometimes they can be the doorway through which one can begin their path to wisdom and understanding. Miracles don't have to be the last step, they can sometimes be the first. I mean if I was a mathematician and was shown something in the Qur'an that was mathematically impossible, I'd want to take a closer look at it.

What mathematical miracles do you perceive there are in the bible and how in your mind do you perceive them superior to those found in other texts religious or not..

Well this is certainly one of them. I've found multiple similar instances of a heptadic “seal” on the Text which helps verify Its integrity to me. And since you ask of the ones I perceive, I'll just mention ones like the value of pi is shown to an incredible decimal degree (and not just '3' like many accuse the Bible of saying.) Or the fact that an OT prophecy calculates the exact day that Yeshua would make His arrival in Jerusalem (what Christians commonly call “Palm Sunday”) more than 500 years prior to the event. Or the fact that there were 400+ prophecies about Yeshua made hundreds of years before His birth and every single one of them was said to come true.


^These are examples of something similar that I would want to find in other texts, this helps show, to me at least, that there might be something going on here. How do I perceive them as superior? Well I'd have to explain some of these and then find something of a similar caliber in other texts. That's what I'm trying to do, is to find the other “miracles” to see how they stack up. I'm not trying to immediately discredit them, but to take a valid look at them. The unexamined faith is not worth living.

[QUOTE=τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1328989]in which ways is the bible authentic or Jesus 'god'?
The missionaries will say that Ezra 3:8 The same person is called by the nickname for Yehoshua/Joshua...Yeshua/Jesus.
The Reply is The verse says "In the second year after thei arrival at the House of G-d, at Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel, son of Shealteil and Jeshua son of Jozadak, and the rest of thier brother priests and Levites, and all who had come from the captivity to Jerusalem, as their first step announted levites from the age of twenty and upward to supervise the work of the House of the L-RD." (JPS) Notice that the person named Jeshua is son of Jozadak and not Mary, Joseph, or the "Holy Spirit". Even if this persons name is Joshua and his nick name is Jeshua, that only proves that it is common to call people named Joshua by the Aramaic Jeshua in the time of the Second Temple. That in no way proves that Jesus was the Messiah, only that Jesus' name came from the Aramaic Jeshua.
Please read verse 9 also. You will notice that the Joshua/Jeshua in question has sons. Jesus did not have sons (or any children) according to the NT. Therefore, this does not refer to Jesus.
Source: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/writings/ezra3v8.htm[/QUOTE]
Wow, is it possible for you to stay on topic please? That is probably the least used argument for Jesus being Divine and, to be honest, displays a lack of understanding as to the fundamental ideas of the Bible. I didn't start this thread to argue that the Qur'an is wrong and that the Bible is right so please try not to bring in tiny, inconsequential arguments that only distract. If you would like to talk about the specific issue you brought up, please e-mail me or start another thread because that isn't a correct rebuttal of the Biblical standpoint.

Is sunnipath a legitimate site place to seek Islamic education? and even if they were how has this education helped you? you seem confused about your religion and other people's religion still by the rudimentary style of your question and your inability to defend your own argument!

It's a legitimate site from what I've seen and from what the Muslims I know and respect have told me. It hasn't helped me yet because I havn't started the class yet. I just brought this up in order to show that I am honestly searching for a deeper understanding, not just trying to tear down the beliefs of people of other faiths.
I think you seriously misunderstand my question and are not taking a rational approach to viewing it. Inability to defend? You havn't torn it down, you havn't shown how that is possible by human means.


Also, I'm not here to make an argument, I came to ask a question, one that still hasn't really been answered.

lol.. ok Good luck with all of that.. I personally don't mind the promotion.. go ahead hit us with your best!

You really don't want that, trust me. And once again, you think I came to argue when I came to inquire.

laws behind combinatorics, the probability of a word occurring a specific number of times in the text decreasing as the text grows longer, as the number of possibilities increases rapidly. That means if you took a book that was 20 000 pages, and the word night was mentioned exactly as many times as day, it would be far more astonishing than if you found the same thing in a single page report. Also, if the word repetitions are small, then there is a greater chance that it was intentionally done that way. But if the repetition number is bigger, it is practically impossible.

now super-impose the probability of seven heavens mentioned seven times to flow in style, context, lyricism, syntax and still have the Quran fulfill its original purpose which is be a spiritual guidance for mankind, as well contrast it to the life of he who reveled it giving us two completely different style texts Quran vs. hadith while managing a Muslim state both politically, economically, socially, spiritually without the need to archive strategically the placement of said verses the numerology whether of 7 heavens or 5 prayers etc. etc. isn't what establishes value and validity of the Quran although it is an added bonus.

Wait... seriously? Seriously? If the Qur'an was like the Bible, Something which is comprised of dozens of Texts written by several different authors of the course of millenia instead of a book written by one man in his lifetime, then I would be amazed by certain words mentioned only a certain amount of times. But if I wrote a book, I could certainly not use a single word more than a specified amount of times. It would be hard, but nowhere near impossible.

That is how you establish a numerical marvel fellow, not merely asserting that it exists with some bravado and expecting folks to be awed and amazed.

Once again, I was not trying to drop that info for shock and awe, I was using it as an example for what I was looking for in the Qur'an.

we are certainly awed and amazed but for other reasons and I am not sure any of them reflect well on you!

Wait, I came looking for truth and all I get is heckling and jeering and judging...
I came to try to give Islam and the Qur'an a legitimate place in the search for truth and all I get is this?
Judgment and trivial arguments about something I never brought up?
I understand that my writing can be confusing to understand at times, but still... This reflects badly on me because... I'm searching for truth and am not immediately judging Islam, yet when I ask for answers I get this? Abuse? I thought Islam was the religion of peace, not the religion of throwing sticks and stones until the outcast leaves.


None of my questions have been answered, can someone please refer me to someone who can answer my questions if you guys are unwilling?
I'm looking for mathematical “seals” underneath the scripture of the Qur'an, not patterns, but something that shows it hasn't been tampered with or that it is Divine in the first place. If needed I can take the time to explain this better because I know my writing isn't totally grammatically correct or clear right now, but I hope you understand.

[جوري]

I have for myself and for those who choose to listen, but that is not totally relevant to the question I was asking. Besides, if miracles are found, shouldn't that encourage a deeper look at the text (any text in general)? Miracles don't have to be the last step or just something used to support an argument, sometimes they can be the doorway through which one can begin their path to wisdom and understanding. Miracles don't have to be the last step, they can sometimes be the first. I mean if I was a mathematician and was shown something in the Qur'an that was mathematically impossible, I'd want to take a closer look at it.

You came here boasting 'numerical miracles' 'numerical miracles' were offered you, you decided they weren't good enough for you, but in the process failed to show how what you have posted is in fact 'miraculous'? so I'd say it is quite relevant to the topic and your own credibility!

Well this is certainly one of them. I've found multiple similar instances of a heptadic “seal” on the Text which helps verify Its integrity to me. And since you ask of the ones I perceive, I'll just mention ones like the value of pi is shown to an incredible decimal degree (and not just '3' like many accuse the Bible of saying.) Or the fact that an OT prophecy calculates the exact day that Yeshua would make His arrival in Jerusalem (what Christians commonly call “Palm Sunday”) more than 500 years prior to the event. Or the fact that there were 400+ prophecies about Yeshua made hundreds of years before His birth and every single one of them was said to come true.

What is the significance of the 'heptadic seal'? a 'miracle' by definition is something where the natural laws of physics are suspended, so in the beginning and end I fail to see how what you post is 'miraculous' at all, but the OT doesn't recognize 'Yeshua' as god, if they did would they have remained Jews?

^These are examples of something similar that I would want to find in other texts, this helps show, to me at least, that there might be something going on here. How do I perceive them as superior? Well I'd have to explain some of these and then find something of a similar caliber in other texts. That's what I'm trying to do, is to find the other “miracles” to see how they stack up. I'm not trying to immediately discredit them, but to take a valid look at them. The unexamined faith is not worth living.

Yes go ahead and explain them and show us how they are superior to similar style text!

The missionaries will say that Ezra 3:8 The same person is called by the nickname for Yehoshua/Joshua...Yeshua/Jesus.
The Reply is The verse says "In the second year after thei arrival at the House of G-d, at Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel, son of Shealteil and Jeshua son of Jozadak, and the rest of thier brother priests and Levites, and all who had come from the captivity to Jerusalem, as their first step announted levites from the age of twenty and upward to supervise the work of the House of the L-RD." (JPS) Notice that the person named Jeshua is son of Jozadak and not Mary, Joseph, or the "Holy Spirit". Even if this persons name is Joshua and his nick name is Jeshua, that only proves that it is common to call people named Joshua by the Aramaic Jeshua in the time of the Second Temple. That in no way proves that Jesus was the Messiah, only that Jesus' name came from the Aramaic Jeshua.
Please read verse 9 also. You will notice that the Joshua/Jeshua in question has sons. Jesus did not have sons (or any children) according to the NT. Therefore, this does not refer to Jesus.
Source: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1551/writings/ezra3v8.htm[/QUOTE]
Wow, is it possible for you to stay on topic please? That is probably the least used argument for Jesus being Divine and, to be honest, displays a lack of understanding as to the fundamental ideas of the Bible. I didn't start this thread to argue that the Qur'an is wrong and that the Bible is right so please try not to bring in tiny, inconsequential arguments that only distract. If you would like to talk about the specific issue you brought up, please e-mail me or start another thread because that isn't a correct rebuttal of the Biblical standpoint.

lol.. staying on topic? this is coming from a guy who speaks of 'miracles' and then fails to validate them, on of the things you make mention of above using the 'OT' is the arrival of 'Yeshua' in Jerusalem, I believe my above quote deals directly with that, the Yeshua that has arrived isn't the one that the 'OT' predicted they don't recognize your god as a god, messenger or even the one spoken of in their text!
a terrible dilemma for you to try to 'prove something miraculous' using the very text that doesn't even recognize your god to even be of david's lineage! woops :hmm:

It's a legitimate site from what I've seen and from what the Muslims I know and respect have told me. It hasn't helped me yet because I havn't started the class yet. I just brought this up in order to show that I am honestly searching for a deeper understanding, not just trying to tear down the beliefs of people of other faiths.
I think you seriously misunderstand my question and are not taking a rational approach to viewing it. Inability to defend? You havn't torn it down, you havn't shown how that is possible by human means.

You tell yourself whatever you need to get through this =)

Also, I'm not here to make an argument, I came to ask a question, one that still hasn't really been answered.

It has actually been answered repeatedly, you not liking the response given in favor of your brand gibber doesn't denote that the answer is more than adequate!

You really don't want that, trust me. And once again, you think I came to argue when I came to inquire.

Sure I do, go ahead!.. and I don't think you came to inquire. I can't classify your puerile style under any category but I wouldn't call it inquiry.. it is ridiculous style carpet bombing maybe but using an ineffective BB gun :D

Wait... seriously? Seriously? If the Qur'an was like the Bible, Something which is comprised of dozens of Texts written by several different authors of the course of millenia instead of a book written by one man in his lifetime, then I would be amazed by certain words mentioned only a certain amount of times. But if I wrote a book, I could certainly not use a single word more than a specified amount of times. It would be hard, but nowhere near impossible.

I don't actually put the Quran and the bible at all in the same category. The Quran is the unerring word of god, while the bible is of dubious authors as per staunch conservative biblical scholars and wrought with errors all throughout. If anything at all it can be made comprable to hadith and even with hadith has a proper chain of isnad and can be related directly and historically, again something missing from your bibles!

Once again, I was not trying to drop that info for shock and awe, I was using it as an example for what I was looking for in the Qur'an.

I am not sure you'll be able to achieve 'shock and awe' but maybe a hearty guffaw =) at least it still falls along the lines of a cute limerick!

Wait, I came looking for truth and all I get is heckling and jeering and judging...
I came to try to give Islam and the Qur'an a legitimate place in the search for truth and all I get is this?

I thought you'd subscribed to a serious institution to seek such knowledge? people don't learn on web blogs!

Judgment and trivial arguments about something I never brought up?

That is an adequate assessment of your approach here indeed and thank you!

I understand that my writing can be confusing to understand at times, but still... This reflects badly on me because... I'm searching for truth and am not immediately judging Islam, yet when I ask for answers I get this? Abuse? I thought Islam was the religion of peace, not the religion of throwing sticks and stones until the outcast leaves.

irrelevant!

None of my questions have been answered, can someone please refer me to someone who can answer my questions if you guys are unwilling?

see previous reply!

I'm looking for mathematical “seals” underneath the scripture of the Qur'an, not patterns, but something that shows it hasn't been tampered with or that it is Divine in the first place. If needed I can take the time to explain this better because I know my writing isn't totally grammatically correct or clear right now, but I hope you understand.

We don't know what 'seals' mean as per your understanding, and you have failed to establish how they are 'miraculous' in nature as per what you have presented.

all the best

[Ramadhan]

Also, I'm not here to make an argument, I came to ask a question, one that still hasn't really been answered.

You most certainly did not come here to ask and enquire. If you did, you would have tried to at least to provide adequate response to the first few posts that sis Lily and I have made instead of repeatedly saying "oh, those numbers are no miracles" or "oh, to write the Qur'an is not near impossible".
Most people are not as gullible as you'd think.

Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Surah Baqara 2:7

[Rabi Mansur]

If I was promoting the Greek Bible like you assume, I would tell you the passage where it was from. But I didn't, especially since it stirs up the waters with Islamic beliefs a little. I am using it as an example of what I am trying to find in the Qur'an.

:sl:

I recognize the passage as Mark 16:9-19. Also known in biblical scholarship circles as the longer ending of Mark. It is my understanding that the shorter ending has more acceptance among the experts so it is debateable whether this passage was really part of the original or if added years later. But for the sake of argument let's say it is original.

Also, you added the "Amen" at the end which I don't see in my Greek New Testament as being part of the text. Does that affect the numerical miracle?

I used to study Greek when I was in the process of losing my prior religion and still try to read the NT in the original from time to time.

I don't really know what to think about the mathematical miracle argument but your passage is quite interesting. I will make note of it in my text the next time I read Mark.

The "Qur'an Only" group in Tucson did quite a bit of study on the Qur'an's numerical miracles but they are not accepted so much in mainstream Islam from what I can tell. They published a translation of the Qur'an called "The Final Testament" which you might find interesting that shows the text tends to revolve around the number 19.

My former religion was Mormonism and I can tell you that Mormon scholars claim there are a number of "linguistic proofs" in the book of Mormon to prove it is an ancient inspired text. It seems to me that humans tend to find what they are looking for in any religious text.

However, the Qur'an and Bible miracles are more impressive than what Mormon scholars claim for their text. Perhaps the real proof of whether God inspired a scripture is the effect it has on mankind. There is no doubt that the Qur'an and Bible have changed the world. One advantage the Qur'an has over the Bible is the Qur'an has not changed and there are not multiple readings or passages such as are in the Bible. It was given straight from Jibreel to Muhammad (PBUH).

:wa:

[mattqatsi]

You most certainly did not come here to ask and enquire. If you did, you would have tried to at least to provide adequate response to the first few posts that sis Lily and I have made instead of repeatedly saying "oh, those numbers are no miracles" or "oh, to write the Qur'an is not near impossible".
Most people are not as gullible as you'd think.

Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). Surah Baqara 2:7

I tried, and failed, so I'll come back a little later with a full-blown explanation. Please please please please please look at things from my perspective for one second. Before passing another inkling of judgment, please look at things through my eyes. Say you believe something and you've found what you consider to be a human impossibility in an ancient text. You want to know if there are more of these floating around religious literature or not, so you visit the site of another faith you know a lot about. You go there not to disprove even though you are firmly set in your own faith, but you go there to try and find incredible things in other faiths since you love studying religions and their impact on the world and beginnings from it. You know that what you found might be volitile in this environment so you first try to use a safe example. That doesn't work as the people who respond misinterpret what you're looking for. So you whip out a portion of what you have because you're looking for an equivalent or something similar. And all you get is judgment for not liking ridiculous answers and you get accused of proselytizing. The example was necessary but no one understands it and now you're only getting flak and not loving requests for clarification...

If this is an honest inquiry (which it is) imagine what it must look like from my perspective and how you're treating someone who is trying to pursue truth. I'm sorry for not clarifying, but you all immediately judge because I brought in the Bible. I'm not saying you should accept it immediately because of these facts, but I had to try to explain what I was looking for somehow.

[mattqatsi]

You came here boasting 'numerical miracles' 'numerical miracles' were offered you, you decided they weren't good enough for you, but in the process failed to show how what you have posted is in fact 'miraculous'? so I'd say it is quite relevant to the topic and your own credibility!

I came here looking for them, not trying to boast the ones I have found. Before passing judgment, look at it like this, please, I beg you. I came looking for a specific type of miracle, one which I didn't fully explain, which is my bad, but it's not an idea that is easy to get across. If I hadn't done the research myself, I'd probably have the same confused look on my face. I said that what was provided was not miraculous not to try and flaunt what I call Holy, I'm honestly not rubbing it in your face, or at least trying not to, but what was provided was inadequate. Why?
Before passing judgment and saying I'm a blind missionary, please try to see these as they really are, not just that they're true because I, a questioning non-Muslim, don't see them as miracles. Honestly look at these and tell me if the vast majority are "miracles," they are interesting textual/poetic devices, sure, but are they really impossible to forge by human hands? I mean, if you ask me, I'll go through them all, but the prevalence of the number 19 or other "miracles" as you described are not impossible to write. If the repeated, varied use of a number proved something, then using that same logic, the Bible should be beyond infallible because of how the number 7 crosses over the entire thing. You know, 7 days of creation, 7 trumpets of angels during the end times, 7 Holy days, everything is related to the number seven in there. But that's not a valid defense of the Bible (the argument I gave was a little different, but I'll try to explain that.) I could write a story about kingdoms and generations and stick the number 15 everywhere. I could write a chapter with 15 lines, or use sentences with 15 words. It could have 15 chapters. What I'm trying to say is that a lot of this is interesting, but it's not a miracle. Like I said earlier, I'm not saying I could write the Qur'an, it is a work vastly superior to my writing skills but on the side of mathematics, it isn't too special.

What is the significance of the 'heptadic seal'? a 'miracle' by definition is something where the natural laws of physics are suspended, so in the beginning and end I fail to see how what you post is 'miraculous' at all, but the OT doesn't recognize 'Yeshua' as god, if they did would they have remained Jews?

I'll explain how this heptadic seal is "miraculous" or relevant or what it even is later on in a future post. But when you finally grasp what I mean, hopefully you won't be as bitter towards me because it will at least make sense. Also, about the Jews, that is an answer found in the Bible, and it is a cohesive answer at that, not just a rationalization. Without going into any depth at all, at least right now, I'll just say that the answer is similar to the Qur'an's verse about Allah hardening the hearts of unbelievers, except this is a little less judgmental in an encompassing manner.

Yes go ahead and explain them and show us how they are superior to similar style text!

I will explain some in a future post, but before I do, you missed my point. The "similar style text" portion of my post was trying to say that that is why I'm here, to find the similar ones, not to disprove, but to find.

lol.. staying on topic? this is coming from a guy who speaks of 'miracles' and then fails to validate them, on of the things you make mention of above using the 'OT' is the arrival of 'Yeshua' in Jerusalem, I believe my above quote deals directly with that, the Yeshua that has arrived isn't the one that the 'OT' predicted they don't recognize your god as a god, messenger or even the one spoken of in their text!
a terrible dilemma for you to try to 'prove something miraculous' using the very text that doesn't even recognize your god to even be of david's lineage! woops :hmm:

Yes, staying on topic. I didn't come here to prove Christ's Divinity, but to inquire about math. Please try and understand that I'm only using an example to help prove what I was looking for. Going off topic would be going into something non-math related, like the absolute rubbish and uninformed response you gave me about Yeshua. Sorry, but that's totally unrelated right now and just totally wrong in general. If you want, please create a thread about it and I'll answer you there but don't try and derail this thread. You could be a shining light for the perceived superiority of your faith instead of an example of a judgmental heckler.
Also, that line about Yeshua not being of David's lineage? You have got to be kidding me, that makes me sick to my stomach because of the absolute lengths the Bible went to to show that He was of the lineage of David. Heck, that's even why there's two genealogies, for that specific reason (and no, they are not contradictory like many believe.) Are you the sort of person who will call a white wall black? Because you just did the equivalent of saying the exact opposite of how things are.

It has actually been answered repeatedly, you not liking the response given in favor of your brand gibber doesn't denote that the answer is more than adequate!

No, no, it honestly hasn't. Either tomorrow or the next day I'll go through every argument to show how it isn't satisfactory at all, even from a rational side.

Sure I do, go ahead!.. and I don't think you came to inquire. I can't classify your puerile style under any category but I wouldn't call it inquiry.. it is ridiculous style carpet bombing maybe but using an ineffective BB gun :D

Bask in your clever wit because it makes an effective witness. Sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but I'm not carpet bombing, I was showing something as an example of what I'm looking for. I'll explain better because this is more of a nuclear bomb than anything, but I'm not trying to activate the nuke, I'm trying to see who else is packing heat and if anyone has anything bigger.

I don't actually put the Quran and the bible at all in the same category. The Quran is the unerring word of god, while the bible is of dubious authors as per staunch conservative biblical scholars and wrought with errors all throughout. If anything at all it can be made comprable to hadith and even with hadith has a proper chain of isnad and can be related directly and historically, again something missing from your bibles!

I'm going to ignore this because it's just asking for a fight. But please please trust me that those are rampant misconceptions. I used to think that too but then I looked into the "contradictions" of the Bible and found something more interesting, something that held up against %100 of accusations. Seriously, any perceived contradiction can easily be resolved. When I bring up Qur'anic contradictions, people just say "nothing contradicts in the original arabic" which is still untrue. I have not really insulted the Quran throughout this, please don't insult mine unless you want an e-fight. Rampant. Misconceptions.

I thought you'd subscribed to a serious institution to seek such knowledge? people don't learn on web blogs!

ummmm... they can and I havn't started the classes yet. I came looking for pointers and I came to a place where multiple people congregate so I can get pointers to resources that some may not know of.

We don't know what 'seals' mean as per your understanding, and you have failed to establish how they are 'miraculous' in nature as per what you have presented.

Once again, I'll explain later so you can see what I'm looking for.

[mattqatsi]

I recognize the passage as Mark 16:9-19. Also known in biblical scholarship circles as the longer ending of Mark. It is my understanding that the shorter ending has more acceptance among the experts so it is debateable whether this passage was really part of the original or if added years later. But for the sake of argument let's say it is original.

It is still debated but since when has anything in this world been resolved?

Also, you added the "Amen" at the end which I don't see in my Greek New Testament as being part of the text. Does that affect the numerical miracle?

Whoa, thanks for catching that. I just grabbed this from a quick Textus Receptus copy and didn't notice that (my notes are handwritten.) Yeah it does change things, the Amen is not in what I examined.

I used to study Greek when I was in the process of losing my prior religion and still try to read the NT in the original from time to time.

wow, that's amazing, I'm struggling to get along but it's a fascinating language so far.

I don't really know what to think about the mathematical miracle argument but your passage is quite interesting. I will make note of it in my text the next time I read Mark.

I got it from this book written in the 1800s, it's a really simple, easy book (numbered paragraphs, etc) so look through it, it has info on other portions of Mark as well. The guy who wrote it is a genius, Ivan Panin, but no one knows of him (or ironically enough been able to disprove him, he's just ignored nowadays.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=OlA...page&q&f=false

The "Qur'an Only" group in Tucson did quite a bit of study on the Qur'an's numerical miracles but they are not accepted so much in mainstream Islam from what I can tell. They published a translation of the Qur'an called "The Final Testament" which you might find interesting that shows the text tends to revolve around the number 19.

Once I awake for the day later on today I'm heading off to the library to find this book. Thank you, this may help and be what I'm actually looking for.

My former religion was Mormonism and I can tell you that Mormon scholars claim there are a number of "linguistic proofs" in the book of Mormon to prove it is an ancient inspired text. It seems to me that humans tend to find what they are looking for in any religious text.

Would you happen to have any resources on that? Maybe that will help me skip the Mormon forums. Everyone has their defense, but few actually hold up once the waters are tested.

However, the Qur'an and Bible miracles are more impressive than what Mormon scholars claim for their text. Perhaps the real proof of whether God inspired a scripture is the effect it has on mankind. There is no doubt that the Qur'an and Bible have changed the world. One advantage the Qur'an has over the Bible is the Qur'an has not changed and there are not multiple readings or passages such as are in the Bible. It was given straight from Jibreel to Muhammad (PBUH).

I agree with the first part but not the second, but I don't want to light a fuse for heated debate.

But thanks for pointing me in that direction, ("Final Testament") this should really help, hopefully

[جوري]

Once again, I'll explain later so you can see what I'm looking for.

So what I am to understand from this bulky exigent logorrhea is that I firstly have to as per your direct quote "grasp what you mean'' and then you'll ''explain later' on blind faith ignoring the fact that your book has no textual/historical/chronological/ or authorship integrity -- shouldn't a miracle in fact be so visible to the naked eye, that you won't need this pathetic convoluted calisthenics with words to to echo something that simply isn't there?

Yet 'miracles' of combinatorics also involving the number 7, math that is taught in university classrooms which came thousands of years ago from the desert the unassailable textual integrity, logical consistency, supernatural eloquence, scientific statements, engagement of the reader as if one on one with the divine is not miraculous because well you said so and you know best heh heh!

lol

go look for a congregation on an atheist or a christian forum!

all the best

[Rabi Mansur]

Would you happen to have any resources on that? Maybe that will help me skip the Mormon forums. Everyone has their defense, but few actually hold up once the waters are tested.

True. Most of what the Mormons rely on is Chiasmus. They argue that there are patterns in the Book of Mormon that follow a chiastic structure that only would be in an inspired text. The problem with that argument is that you can find chiasms in all kinds of literature, including books that have nothing to do with spirituality. And another problem is: When did chiasm ever = inspiration? Who decides?

Another argument they try to use is that there are supposedly a lot of "Hebraisms" in the text which they claim mean that it is an ancient semitic text. I have never been persuaded by that argument at all. A lot of it is just in King James English and therefore sounds ancient or reflects the speech pattern of the writer, so I don't think that is an argument that stands up under scrutiny. I've seen objective Hebrew scholars demolish that argument.

I think you can find a lot of their arguments on FAIR (foundation for ancient research and mormon studies) or at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute. Those two places are where their so-called "scholars" hang out. At first it seems impressive, but after awhile you realize that they have either skewed the evidence or come to a conclusion and then tried to find anything possible that might fit in their preconceived conclusions. They are not objective at all. You can prove anything using their approach. They are pseudo-scholars in my opinion.

As I mentioned, there have been those who have found a mathematical structure in the Qur'an. The "Qur'an Only" group in Tucson is one (but they aren't accepted by mainstream Islam because they reject the Hadith as well as believe another messenger has come subsequent to Muhammad PBUH). And there are others that have also found interesting structures in the text.

But the real test is whether it can be duplicated in Arabic. No one has been able to do that as far as I can tell. It was revealed in Arabic and has not been duplicated. No one has been able to meet the challenge.
There are others here who have been Muslim longer than I who could address this in a much more comprehensive fashion.

Peace.

:wa: