Muslims and Islam

[huan]

Hi!

Whenever I talk to Muslims and tell them about atrocities and acts and horrible things committed by Muslims all over the world, they tell me to not look at what other Muslims are doing and look at Islam from it's original sources. Even though I have my doubts about certain teachings of Islam. Yet the value of the teachings is in the practical results that it brings about. A system that works in theory, but utterly fails in practice, isn't very useful for us if we are looking for something that does work in practice, you say that Islam is the solution for humanity but a good teaching system takes into account the failures and foibles of humans. While you may be able to make a point that overall Islam is beneficial to the way people act (and that the minority are overcome by the majority), you won't score many points by attempting to obtain a more generous evaluation of Islam by divorcing the actions of muslims from Islam itself. Practical consequences and practical value cannot be ignored.

Peace.

[Zafran]

why just pick on the muslims? Nearly every ideology,system or religion has followers which commit horrible acts -

horrible acts by muslims are a minority anyway.

Islam has worked in practice many many times. the rashidun, golden age, al andlaus, ottoman empire etc.

[Dagless]

If you look at the bad acts of Muslims, as a percentage of the total number of Muslims, then you'll probably find it insignificant. Besides which if everyone was a good Muslim then hell would be empty, and we know this won't be the case.

[marwen]

.. A system that works in theory, but utterly fails in practice, isn't very useful for us if we are looking for something that does work in practice, you say that Islam is the solution for humanity but a good teaching system takes into account the failures and foibles of humans ..

Well, you raised a good point, but I think your reasoning is a little bit incorrect. A good system has to take into consideration the faibles/weakness of humans, I'm ok with that. But failures ? no, a good system cannot be responsible of human failures. Islamic recommandation give us the right instructions to follow, and these instructions take into acount the human capabilities/weakness : no difficult/impossible instructions. But you can't expect from the system to prevent followers from committing errors or forgetting the right instructions : that's what makes the difference between good and bad muslims, and between reward and punition.

Example : let's suppose that a system is like a road (a way) that take you to your home. This road is well paved, and in a good state, and it's really straight and takes you exactly to your destination.
Now the driver who drive the car on this road can be a good driver with a good car and arrives to his destination by following the road. Or the driver can be a drunk person who don't really see the road or doesn't know how to drive on the road correctly, and he may get out the road and probably wont reach his destination.
Can you blame the road, and say the road should take into consideration that some drivers are getting out the main road ?

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[huan]

Well, you raised a good point, but I think your reasoning is a little bit incorrect. A good system has to take into consideration the faibles/weakness of humans, I'm ok with that. But failures ? no, a good system cannot be responsible of human failures. Islamic recommandation give us the right instructions to follow, and these instructions take into acount the human capabilities/weakness : no difficult/impossible instructions. But you can't expect from the system to prevent followers from committing errors or forgetting the right instructions : that's what makes the difference between good and bad muslims, and between reward and punition.

Example : let's suppose that a system is like a road (a way) that take you to your home. This road is well paved, and in a good state, and it's really straight and takes you exactly to your destination.
Now the driver who drive the car on this road can be a good driver with a good car and arrives to his destination by following the road. Or the driver can be a drunk person who don't really see the road or doesn't know how to drive on the road correctly, and he may get out the road and probably wont reach his destination.
Can you blame the road, and say the road should take into consideration that some drivers are getting out the main road ?

Well I get what you're saying, that's what all my muslim friends have been telling me too, and the point I raised in my original post about them telling me not to look at muslims but the teachings itself. For example, suppose i develop a schedule for you that has you getting up at 6am everyday, studying hard for 18 hours with short breaks for lunch/dinner, and you going to bed at 2am. you are likely to fail to live up to my system and will crash in a heap of exhaustion. Can I then claim that your collapsing is your fault, and that it would "work in practice if you let it"? of course not: we would say that I was wildly unrealistic and didn't take into account human nature, and therefore that I am at fault. similarly, if someone fails 'to live up to' Islam then it is not necessarily their fault; it may be the case that Islam is unrealistic and failed to give sufficient consideration to human nature.

[huan]

why just pick on the muslims? Nearly every ideology,system or religion has followers which commit horrible acts -

horrible acts by muslims are a minority anyway.

Islam has worked in practice many many times. the rashidun, golden age, al andlaus, ottoman empire etc.

Can Islam live upto the modern age ?

[Zafran]

Can Islam live upto the modern age ?

It clearly is living in the modern age and is stil growing.

[Insaanah]

Whenever I talk to Muslims and tell them about atrocities and acts and horrible things committed by Muslims all over the world, they tell me to not look at what other Muslims are doing and look at Islam from it's original sources.

Your starting assumption is incorrect and shows naivety. Muslims all over the world are busy committing horrible acts and atrocities eh? How do we Muslims all manage to get time out of our busy atrocity committing schedules to write these posts? Please go and inform yourself of the facts. If you believe everything you read in the biased media, then clearly you have more work to do.

Yet the value of the teachings is in the practical results that it brings about

I agree

A system that works in theory, but utterly fails in practice,

Utterly fails, eh? In bestowing dignity to women? In being the first to grant them the right to inherit, to own their own property, to be a legal entity in themselves? In ending financial exploitation of those in debt? In reducing crime dramatically through tough punishments? In ensuring that the family system is the building block of society? In ensuring that we worship and give thanks to our Creator? In ensuring we don't have drunken yobs on the streets vomiting at 3am in the morning wasting health service time and money? I could go on and on....

you won't score many points by attempting to obtain a more generous evaluation of Islam by divorcing the actions of muslims from Islam itself.

We have no need to score points. People of all walks of life are alhamdulillah coming to Islam in droves after researching into whether this media hype is all true, and what does Islam really say...

good teaching system takes into account the failures and foibles of humans.

Which is why we don't fast for 24 hours. Which is why we don't pray 10 times a day. Which is why we don't give away half our wealth. This really doesn't sound too hard to me...

it may be the case that Islam is unrealistic and failed to give sufficient consideration to human nature.

You could use that argument for anything that you personally found too hard. But as far as Islam goes, the opposite is true.
Peace.

[huan]

Your starting assumption is incorrect and shows naivety. Muslims all over the world are busy committing horrible acts and atrocities eh? How do we Muslims all manage to get time out of our busy atrocity committing schedules to write these posts? Please go and inform yourself of the facts. If you believe everything you read in the biased media, then clearly you have more work to do.

I agree

Utterly fails, eh? In bestowing dignity to women? In being the first to grant them the right to inherit, to own their own property, to be a legal entity in themselves? In ending financial exploitation of those in debt? In reducing crime dramatically through tough punishments? In ensuring that the family system is the building block of society? In ensuring that we worship and give thanks to our Creator? In ensuring we don't have drunken yobs on the streets vomiting at 3am in the morning wasting health service time and money? I could go on and on....

We have no need to score points. People of all walks of life are alhamdulillah coming to Islam in droves after researching into whether this media hype is all true, and what does Islam really say...

Which is why we don't fast for 24 hours. Which is why we don't pray 10 times a day. Which is why we don't give away half our wealth. This really doesn't sound too hard to me...

You could use that argument for anything that you personally found too hard. But as far as Islam goes, the opposite is true.
Peace.

For e.g. Homosexuality, it sets unrealistic standards that fail to appreciate human nature, and thus leads to less desirable consequences than would be the case were it to have a more realistic understanding of sexuality. in such situations, islam might be what is at fault, not the people trying to follow it. I have seen many muslims who've had to hide from their fellow people, so that they are not killed, it's not like they want to be homosexuals, it's just they can't help it.

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

For e.g. Homosexuality, it sets unrealistic standards that fail to appreciate human nature, and thus leads to less desirable consequences than would be the case were it to have a more realistic understanding of sexuality. in such situations, islam might be what is at fault, not the people trying to follow it. I have seen many muslims who've had to hide from their fellow people, so that they are not killed, it's not like they want to be homosexuals, it's just they can't help it.

Well. Homosexuality is not the real problem. The religious problem with homosexuality is the following:

- It threatens the values of family which are held to be very very important.

- It represents pure physicality as homosexuality by definition is not about creating.

In fact the problem that we see today is that we leave in a very very muscular society to begin with, especially
in the modern western world - this society leads to a certain "physicality" or "worship of the physicality" on a spiritual way which inspires the physical manifestations of this phenomena among the people themselves.

It is this "inspiring spiritual mascular-mascular force" or rather "physical-physical" force which is our main concern. And of course, the well being of our communities and their families...

I would go even further to say that the unbalanced manifestation of homosexuality in modern western society today is a failure of the religious leadership in the areas where it happens - and the religious leaders in these societies cannot blame anybody by themselves. You see, it is true and there would always be homosexuality as long as humanity is not perfected and maybe even after - but in times where things are fine tuned it should not be such a widespread phenomena.

[huan]

Well. Homosexuality is not the real problem. The religious problem with homosexuality is the following:

- It threatens the values of family which are held to be very very important.

- It represents pure physicality as homosexuality by definition is not about creating.

In fact the problem that we see today is that we leave in a very very muscular society to begin with, especially
in the modern western world - this society leads to a certain "physicality" or "worship of the physicality" on a spiritual way which inspires the physical manifestations of this phenomena among the people themselves.

It is this "inspiring spiritual mascular-mascular force" or rather "physical-physical" force which is our main concern. And of course, the well being of our communities and their families...

Why does it matter to you if 2 adults consent to carry out homosexual acts ? They are not harming anyone, nor causing anyone else any problems. Why does Islam have to take a really powerful stance and offer to kill homosexuals.

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

Hi!

Whenever I talk to Muslims and tell them about atrocities and acts and horrible things committed by Muslims all over the world, they tell me to not look at what other Muslims are doing and look at Islam from it's original sources. Even though I have my doubts about certain teachings of Islam. Yet the value of the teachings is in the practical results that it brings about. A system that works in theory, but utterly fails in practice, isn't very useful for us if we are looking for something that does work in practice, you say that Islam is the solution for humanity but a good teaching system takes into account the failures and foibles of humans. While you may be able to make a point that overall Islam is beneficial to the way people act (and that the minority are overcome by the majority), you won't score many points by attempting to obtain a more generous evaluation of Islam by divorcing the actions of muslims from Islam itself. Practical consequences and practical value cannot be ignored.

Peace.

You raise a very good point. You see, we say that Islam would become a solution for the world when all humanity would embrace Islam. Until then - we would have struggle and war. Not because we want
this in anyway - but just the way it is.

Let me give you an example - let us assume an extreme case that you go to an imaginary place in the desert
like the typical image one has and find some village of Muslim people whose behavior you do not approve.
Now - you would take it as a proof that Islam does not work because they behave incorrectly in your eyes.
However, this is not true, because in your eyes you are better than them - if you were a Muslim - you would have
had the right to come to them and tell them "my friends, this is not Islam, Islam is about peace and prosperity" -
but you are not a Muslim so you cannot do that.

My suggestion to you is this - if you look at the Muslim world and see things which you disagree with - become Muslim and try to help from with to give your input which might be valuable - you are in fact welcome to do so as Islam is for everybody - However, when you just come and pass criticism its benefit is very little.

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

Why does it matter to you if 2 adults consent to carry out homosexual acts ? They are not harming anyone, nor causing anyone else any problems. Why does Islam have to take a really powerful stance and offer to kill homosexuals.

Did I say that it matters to me?

[huan]

You raise a very good point. You see, we say that Islam would become a solution for the world when all humanity would embrace Islam. Until then - we would have struggle and war. Not because we want
this in anyway - but just the way it is.

Let me give you an example - let us assume an extreme case that you go to an imaginary place in the desert
like the typical image one has and find some village of Muslim people whose behavior you do not approve.
Now - you would take it as a proof that Islam does not work because they behave incorrectly in your eyes.
However, this is not true, because in your eyes you are better than them - if you were a Muslim - you would have
had the right to come to them and tell them "my friends, this is not Islam, Islam is about peace and prosperity" -
but you are not a Muslim so you cannot do that.

My suggestion to you is this - if you look at the Muslim world and see things which you disagree with - become Muslim and try to help from with to give your input which might be valuable - you are in fact welcome to do so as Islam is for everybody - However, when you just come and pass criticism its benefit is very little.

Well that's not being practical is it ? Islam should know that people have freedom of whatever they want to believe. There will always be people who would not agree with Islam, so you cannot expect everyone in the world to become Muslims. That's just being over over-enthusiastic.

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

Well that's not being practical is it ? Islam should know that people have freedom of whatever they want to believe. There will always be people who would not agree with Islam, so you cannot expect everyone in the world to become Muslims. That's just being over over-enthusiastic.

Why?

I do not see why any person would have any reason to not believe in Islam. What ever correct belief you had before you can keep with you and if it is not correct then for what do you need it - I think that's a fantastic deal.

[marwen]

Why does it matter to you if 2 adults consent to carry out homosexual acts ? They are not harming anyone, nor causing anyone else any problems. Why does Islam have to take a really powerful stance and offer to kill homosexuals.

They're not harming anyone ? No ! they're harming every one !
Imagine if every human is homosexual, what will be the result ? => the extinction of the human race !
I will not add the other physical and ethical drawbacks of homosexuality.

[Alpha Dude]

The topic is just veering off into different and unnecessary tangents. If you want to discuss homosexuality, there are a plethora of threads dedicated to it already.

Anyway. With all due respect, you're making an unnecessary philosophical mountain out of a molehill of an issue. Nothing the correct aqeeda, knowledge and understanding of Islam wouldn't correct.

Allah has set the standard and it is up to us to follow. Of course Allah has taken human nature in to account. He's the one that made us like this in the first place! Life is meant to be a test. Just because some people can't abide by the rules does not mean the rules are not in existence or impossible to follow.

One of Allah's attributes is that he is Most Just, ergo he would not have put us on this test had it not been fair. So your accusation falls flat.

When a government sets rules, it doesn't do so based on what the majority in a particular demographic area behave like. For example, the US would not make murder, rape and theft legal in LA based on the fact that LA has a large gang presence. No doubt the people in the gangs would consider it hard to avoid doing such crimes. Does that mean the law must be downgraded to account for them? Of course not.

Allah has told us the law and it is up to us to follow. The majority will not do so. Even Allah has said that in the Quran that a lot of mankind is misguided.

[Life_Is_Short]

A system that works in theory, but utterly fails in practice,

Yet, one out of every five people in this world of some 5 billion people is a Muslim. There are an estimated 7 million muslims in America where it is the fastest growing and the most diverse.

[Zafran]

Yes I thought this was going to be about how practical Islam is - as it is clearly being followed by 1/5 of the human population. Not a tangent about homosexuality. Which is not parctical anyway.

[Life_Is_Short]

Your one TRIP to Hajj can highlight how "practical" Muslims really are. :coolious:

I mean seriously have you seen the amount of people that attend hajj every year?

Subhana'Allah!!!

[Asiyah3]

Peace Huan,
I don't undrestand you. If you are interested in Islam, why do you let other people's acts and deeds stop you? I mean you could of course advice them, but in the end you're not responsible for others' choices or deeds. Our duty is only to spread the knowledge. And Allah is the best of Judges.


“And whosoever strives, he strives only for himself. Verily, Allaah stands not in need of any of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn, and all that exists)”[al-‘Ankaboot 29:6]

“Whosoever does righteous good deed, it is for (the benefit of) his ownself; and whosoever does evil, it is against his ownself. And your Lord is not at all unjust to (His) slaves”[Fussilat 41:46]


“And keep thy soul content with those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face; and let not thine eyes pass beyond them, seeking the pomp and glitter of this Life; no obey any whose heart We have permitted to neglect the remembrance of Us, one who follows his own desires, whose case has gone beyond all bounds.” [Al-Kahf 18:28 (y.a. translation)]

[Insaanah]

The topic is just veering off into different and unnecessary tangents. If you want to discuss homosexuality, there are a plethora of threads dedicated to it already.

Perhaps this is what the discussion was really meant to be about, but sometimes people are too embarrassed to say, so have a general vent before saying what's really bothering them.

For e.g. Homosexuality, it sets unrealistic standards that fail to appreciate human nature, and thus leads to less desirable consequences than would be the case were it to have a more realistic understanding of sexuality.

No, it does recognise human nature, which is precisely why, recognising human nature, Islam encourages marriage.

in such situations, islam might be what is at fault, not the people trying to follow it.

See above. Islam is the solution, not the problem.

it's not like they want to be homosexuals, it's just they can't help it.

In the same way that a rapist just can't help it? Or that a brother and sister, or father and daughter might not be able to help it?

Why does it matter to you if 2 adults consent to carry out homosexual acts ? They are not harming anyone, nor causing anyone else any problems.

Because in Islam consenting adults need God's consent, and He does not give His consent to homosexuality. If one adult consents and the other doesn't that's illegal. But how much more important is the consent of He Who lent us our bodies? In Islam, it is not about us indulging in our carnal desires without any limits or boundaries "because we couldn't help it" but channelling them usefully and lawfully within the lawful and clear limits set by God.

That really isn't hard, in fact is a blessing.

If you wish to discuss homosexuality specifically further, there are a number of threads dedicated to it already, just use the search function.

Peace.