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Masuma
06-17-2010, 10:58 PM
Orthodox Jews rally against verdict
Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel have staged mass demonstrations against a court ruling that forces the integration of a religious girls' school.


The rallies took place in Jerusalem and in other cities on Thursday in a show of mass defiance over the ruling by the supreme court.

Micky Rosenfeld, a police spokesman, said 10,000 police were deployed to maintain order as demonstrators held posters that read: "The Supreme Court is fascist."


"The prisoners of Emanuel are the messengers of the Jewish people," read another.

At the centre of the dispute is an Orthodox school in the Emanuel Jewish settlement in the northern West Bank.


Parents from the strictly observant Slonim Hassidic sect of Ashkenazi Jewry refused to let their children attend school with girls of Mideast and North African descent, known as Sephardim.


They insist they are not racist, (LIARS!) but want to keep the classrooms segregated, as they have been for years, arguing that the families of the Sephardi girls are not religious enough.


However, the court rejected that argument and ordered the jailing of at least 43 sets of Ashkenazi parents refusing to send their daughters back to school.


'Most dramatic clash'


The dispute was described by the Israeli daily Haaretz as "the most dramatic state-religion clash to break out here".


Sephardi religious leaders have not publicly criticised the demonstration or the parents' conduct, suggesting a reluctance to drive a wedge within the religious community.


Nissim Zeev, a legislator from the conservative Sephardic political party Shas, said: "This is an example of something that should have been passed to a rabbinical court.


"It's out of proportion, and a bit puzzling, that the high court should impose a prison sentence on these parents."


Still, Zeev said the Sephardi girls had the right to choose to attend a mixed school. "If the children are together under one roof, then they are entitled to the same education," he said.
Israel's ultra-Orthodox minority of some 650,000 Jews, just under 10 per cent of the nation's population, is an insular community that has been known to riot over the state's intrusion into its affairs.

Now this was only to highlight the hypocrisy, and sectarianism in Jews. If Jews hate their own brethren and consider them of lower sects, then I think we can all very well guess how they would treat Muslims!


These Jews are really sick!
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espada
06-17-2010, 11:02 PM
Ultra-Orthodox Jews protest school ruling


JERUSALEM – Tens of thousands of black-clad ultra-Orthodox Jews staged mass demonstrations on Thursday to protest a Supreme Court ruling forcing the integration of a religious girls' school.


Protesters snarled traffic in Jerusalem and another large religious enclave, crowded onto balconies in city squares, and waved posters decrying the court's decision and proclaiming the supremacy of religious law.


There were a few small scuffles, and a police officer emerged from one of them holding his eye, apparently slightly injured.


It was one of the largest protests in Jerusalem's history, and a stark reminder of the ultra-Orthodox minority's refusal to accept the authority of the state.


Also, the throngs of devout Jews showed to which extent the ultra-Orthodox live by their own rules, some of them archaic, while wielding disproportionate power in the modern state of Israel.


Parents of European, or Ashkenazi, descent at a girls' school in the West Bank settlement of Emanuel don't want their daughters to study with schoolgirls of Mideast and North African descent, known as Sephardim.


The Ashkenazi parents insist they aren't racist, but want to keep the classrooms segregated, as they have been for years, arguing that the families of the Sephardi girls aren't religious enough.


Israel's Supreme Court rejected that argument, and ruled that the 43 sets of parents who have defied the integration efforts by keeping their daughters from school were to be jailed on Thursday for two weeks.


Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said about 100,000 people converged in downtown Jerusalem in support of the Ashkenazi parents. An additional 20,000 demonstrated in the central city of Bnei Brak. He said 10,000 police were deployed.


Most of the demonstrators were men wearing the long beards and heavy black clothing typical among ultra-Orthodox Jews. "The Supreme Court is fascist," said one poster.


Esther Bark, 50, who has seven daughters, said the issue is keeping the girls away from the temptations of the modern world. "To suddenly put them in an open-minded place is not good for them," she said.


Sephardi religious leaders have not publicly criticized the demonstration or the Ashkenazi parents' conduct.


Nissim Zeev, a lawmaker from the Orthodox Sephardic political party Shas, said the issue should have been settled by a rabbinical court and that the parents' prison sentence was "puzzling." He insisted the Sephardi girls had the right to choose to attend a mixed school

"Everyone wants to send their children to Ashkenazi schools," said another demonstrator, Zion Harounian, 62, a Sephardic father of nine. "The quality of the Ashkenazi schools is much higher. They are stronger politically, so they get more money."


Israel's ultra-Orthodox minority of some 650,000 Jews — just under 10 percent of the nation's population — is an insular community that has been known to riot over the state's intrusion into its affairs. They have been criticized for maintaining a separate, state-funded school system that focuses on religious studies.






السلام عليكم


First off, i'm not trying to fan the flames of hatred, or be a mufsid. Peace, love and understanding is probably what we should all be trying to see on Earth. Yet doesn't this whole thing ... stink?



The Sephardic Jews are the ones that have lived there, side-by-side with the Palestinian Arabs (as far as i know) but they have been historically looked down up by the European Ashkenazi.


And as far as not being a case of racism ... really? Years ago I read a story of an American Jew that went to Israel to live and married a Sephardic Jew. I just managed to find it again but i can't post links.



The marriage ceremony was held in the Sephardic Synagogue. The ceremony was simple but beautiful. Ziva and I were happy, but our marriage created serious problems. You see, Ziva is a Sephardic Jewess and I am an Ashkenazi Jew. For an Ashkenazi Jew to marry a Sephardic Jew is frowned upon in Israel by the ruling Ashkenazis. To understand why this is the case, you must realize the difference between the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.



The powerful Zionist propaganda machine has led the American people to believe that a Jew is a Jew — one race of people and that they are "God's Chosen People". I will deal with the "God's Chosen People" LIE later. First, it is important for you to understand that Jews are NOT one race of people.


There are two distinct groups of Jews in the world and they come from two different areas of the world — the Sephardic Jews from the Middle East and North Africa and the Ashkenazi Jews come from Eastern Europe. The Sephardic is the oldest group and it is they, if any, who are the Jews described in the Bible because they lived in the area described in the Bible. They are blood relatives to the Arabs — the only difference between them is the religion.

The Ashkenazi Jews, who now compromise 90% of the Jews in the world, had a rather strange beginning. According to historians, many of them Jewish, the Ashkenazi Jews came into existence about 1,200 years ago. It happened this way:



At the eastern edge of Europe, there lived a tribe of people know as the Khazars. About the year 740 A.D., the Khazar king and his court decided they should adopt a religion for their people. So, representatives of the three major religions, Christianity, Islam and Judaism, were invited to present their religious doctrines. The Khazars chose Judaism, but it wasn't for religious reasons. If the Khazars had chosen Islam, they would have angered the strong Christian world. If they had chosen Christianity, they would have angered the strong Islamic world. So, they played it safe — they chose Judaism. It wasn't for religious reasons the Khazars chose Judaism; it was for political reasons.



Sometime during the 13th century, the Khazars were driven from their land and they migrated westward with most of them settling in Poland and Russia. These Khazars are now known as Ashkenazi Jews. Because these Khazar Ashkenazi Jews merely chose Judaism, they are not really Jews — at least not blood Jews.


Throughout their history, these Polish and Russian Ashkenazi Jews practiced communism/socialism and worked to have their ideas implemented in these countries.

By the late 1800s significant numbers of these communist/socialist Jews were found in Germany, the Balkans and eventually all over Europe. Because of their interference in the social and governmental affairs of Russia, they became the target of persecution by the Czars. Because of this, migration of these communist/socialist oriented Jews began. Some went to Palestine; some to Central and South America; and a large number of them came to the U.S.
It does make me wonder just how much racism has to play in the treatment of the Palestinian muslims.
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Masuma
06-18-2010, 10:39 AM
SubhanAllah brother espada! SubhanAllah!!!

Great historical background info! And I used to think that Jews can only be those who are BORN as Jews! But still, if someone converts to Judaism, will he be considered a Jew or will simply be looked down upon?

Racism is in their blood! I saw one documentary a few days ago in which a Jewess wanted even a pure breed for her dog! And I was totally shocked as how much they go for "pure breeds" etc!

Originally Posted by espada
It does make me wonder just how much racism has to play in the treatment of the Palestinian muslims.
And I 100 % agree! imsad
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Masuma
06-18-2010, 09:02 PM
I don't know, but this all feels funny!

Israel jails Ultra-Orthodox fathers

SOURCE

Friday, June 18, 2010
13:40 Mecca time, 10:40 GMT

Dozens of Israeli fathers have been jailed, a day after a protest by Ultra-Orthodox Jews in support of the men, who have defied a supreme court ruling on school integration.
Meanwhile, 22 mothers of pupils at an Ultra-Orthodox girls' school in an illegal Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank have been given a stay of arrest while the court considers a plea to let them stay at home to care for their young families.
The settlers' news website Channel 7 and public radio said Judge Edmund Levy decided that the court would reconvene on Sunday to discuss the request.
Israeli media said that some of the mothers were pregnant, while others had children with special needs.
The 35 fathers who turned themselves in at the Jerusalem police headquarters on Thursday evening were taken to Maasiyahu prison in the central Israeli city of Ramle to serve an initial two-week jail sentence for contempt of court.
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mediadave
06-21-2010, 08:37 PM
This is an internal religious dispute, I frankly don't see how it relates to Arabs or Muslims. I also think the attacks on Orthodox Jews quite distasteful, particualrly as Orthodox Jews are generally against the state of Israel* and certainly don't serve in the IDF, etc.


If Jews hate their own brethren and consider them of lower sects, then I think we can all very well guess how they would treat Muslims!
Would Sunnis happily send their children to a Shia or Ahmadhi religious school?


*For religious reasons, they believe only the Messiah can bring about the state of Israel.







etc.
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Masuma
06-21-2010, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by mediadave
This is an internal religious dispute, I frankly don't see how it relates to Arabs or Muslims.
Where did we say that it relates to Arabs and Muslims? We are just sharing the info here. Nothing more! :)


Originally Posted by mediadave
I also think the attacks on Orthodox Jews quite distasteful, particualrly as Orthodox Jews are generally against the state of Israel* and certainly don't serve in the IDF, etc.
Would Sunnis happily send their children to a Shia or Ahmadhi religious school?
*For religious reasons, they believe only the Messiah can bring about the state of Israel.
Have Sunnis or Ahmadis occupied any territory unjustly (deriving the real owners out and slaughtering them)?
The comparison doesn't even fit! :)
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mediadave
06-21-2010, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by An33za
Where did we say that it relates to Arabs and Muslims? We are just sharing the info here. Nothing more! :)
Ok, no worries, apologies.

Originally Posted by An33za
Have Sunnis or Ahmadis occupied any territory unjustly (deriving the real owners out and slaughtering them)?
The comparison doesn't even fit! :)
Ah sorry, I didn't really explain properly. What I mean is, people are calling these Jews racist, because Ashkenazi don't want lots of Shepardic Jewish children at their school. But would Sunni Muslims support a large influx of, for instance, Ahmahdi children going to a religious Sunni school? If they opposed that, would it be racist? The difference between Ashkenazi and Shepardic isn't just race, the culture and religious practices are also quite different - I think some people are trying to present this thing in Israel as more than it is.
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Masuma
06-21-2010, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by mediadave
Ok, no worries, apologies.



Ah sorry, I didn't really explain properly. What I mean is, people are calling these Jews racist, because Ashkenazi don't want lots of Shepardic Jewish children at their school. But would Sunni Muslims support a large influx of, for instance, Ahmahdi children going to a religious Sunni school? If they opposed that, would it be racist? The difference between Ashkenazi and Shepardic isn't just race, the culture and religious practices are also quite different - I think some people are trying to present this thing in Israel as more than it is.
I think you should read post no. 2. I know it is long but still would serve as a beneficial source. It is clearly highlighted in that post that Jews are racists. :hmm:

Ahmadis are not Muslims. They have denied the fundamental teaching of the Islam that Prophet Muhammad is the last and final Prophet. Whereas Ashkenazi and Shepardi are still JEWS! :)

Sunnis and Shias are sectarian groups. Ashkenazi and Shepardi don't seem like. (and as I said before, I don't know much aout the two, but after reading post two, it clearly suggests that Jews are racists.)
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mediadave
06-21-2010, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by An33za
I think you should read post no. 2. I know it is long but still would serve as a beneficial source. It is clearly highlighted in that post that Jews are racists. :hmm:
Maybe these particular Jews are racist, but it should be pointed out they're going against their own supreme court...

Originally Posted by An33za
Ahmadis are not Muslims. They have denied the fundamental teaching of the Islam that Prophet Muhammad is the last and final Prophet. Whereas Ashkenazi and Shepardi are still JEWS! :)

Sunnis and Shias are sectarian groups. Ashkenazi and Shepardi don't seem like. (and as I said before, I don't know much aout the two, but after reading post two, it clearly suggests that Jews are racists.)
I'm not going to say what is and isn't a Muslim, obviously, but Ahmahdi's do consider themselves Muslim...anyway. But Ashkenazi and Shepardi have enough differences to be considered different sects, I'd say.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/5...rdic-Jews.html
Throughout the centuries of exile the Ashkenazim and Sephardim developed distinct cultures, different prayer-books (the essentials are the same, but there are many different nuances), and many different customs.
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Masuma
06-21-2010, 09:36 PM
Now you are suggesting something totally new! Are you suggesting that they are not racists and are but just sects? Well the history actually tells that there is difference between them due to the different origins they came from.

Originally Posted by espada
There are two distinct groups of Jews in the world and they come from two different areas of the world — the Sephardic Jews from the Middle East and North Africa and the Ashkenazi Jews come from Eastern Europe. The Sephardic is the oldest group and it is they, if any, who are the Jews described in the Bible because they lived in the area described in the Bible. They are blood relatives to the Arabs — the only difference between them is the religion.

The Ashkenazi Jews, who now compromise 90% of the Jews in the world, had a rather strange beginning. According to historians, many of them Jewish, the Ashkenazi Jews came into existence about 1,200 years ago. It happened this way:
From the link you gave:

Throughout the centuries of exile the Ashkenazim and Sephardim developed distinct cultures, different prayer-books (the essentials are the same, but there are many different nuances), and many different customs.
Their essentials are still the same. But in Ahmadis, they have refused to accept the major essential of Islam. So I still don't think that the comparison fits!

Plus I do agree that they have even gone against their high court. But why? Doesn't it suggest that they ARE racists?
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aadil77
06-21-2010, 09:47 PM
I have respect for orthodox jews, they're like practising muslims who get labelled extremists just for following their faith
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nousername
06-21-2010, 09:48 PM
I think it IS racist. we are talking about children here. i wouldn't protest against my little boys attending school with shias. i mean why stigmatize children!?
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mediadave
06-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Well, maybe they are racist. The Ashkenazi culture is fairly exclusive, even within it - its split up into different clans, each with their own priesthood run on dynastical grounds. I live near Stamford Hill in London, and interest in my neighbours has led me to learn a few things about it. A few remarks from an article about the Stamford Hill Community: (The rest of the article is fairly boring unless you're interested, and intended to present the Ashkenazi in a good light)

(a joke)
'A marooned Jew was discovered on a desert island after years of isolation. His rescuers were impressed by his survival and by the buildings he had erected, particularly the two synagogues. "But why two?" they asked, puzzled. The Jew looked at them fiercely. "That's the one I use", he replied, "and that's the one I refuse to use".'
There are a wide number of different groupings within the Stamford Hill community * Satmar (Hungary, Romania), Ger (Poland), Bobov (Galicia), Belz (Western Ukraine) and Viznitz (Romania) are the most numerous, while curiously the largest of them all * the Lubavitch sect * is sparsely represented. They are all of East European Ashkenazai (the old Hebrew word for Germany) origin and, although they have differences on matters of interpretation of the Torah and the Talmud
Education is of crucial importance to the orthodox community. There are 20 schools in Stamford Hill which cater for Hasidic children. Has the community considered a more integrative policy? The Rabbi mentioned that the schools act 'in loco parentis, to preserve the culture and faith and to understand other cultures'.
http://www.n16mag.com/issue16/p8i16.htm
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kite runner
06-21-2010, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
I have respect for orthodox jews, they're like practising muslims who get labelled extremists just for following their faith
I agree, I hear a speech by an orthodox jew about his beliefs and he sounded so like a muslim, may Allah guide them
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titus
06-21-2010, 10:05 PM
Well the history actually tells that there is difference between them due to the different origins they came from.
DNA research shows they share their ancestry. Your sources are incorrect, but then I am sure if you find the source of this information most likely you will find it to be racist as this incorrect "fact" is most often found on White Supremest and Neo-Nazi websites.

Have Sunnis or Ahmadis occupied any territory unjustly (deriving the real owners out and slaughtering them)?
Sure they have. Muslims have committed massacres and conquest many times over the centuries. Are you so unaware of history? So have Christians and Hindus and people of other religions. Don't be so naive as to think Muslims are innocent in this.

I think it IS racist. we are talking about children here. i wouldn't protest against my little boys attending school with shias. i mean why stigmatize children!?
What about going to school with Christians? Or Jews?
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Supreme
06-21-2010, 10:09 PM
I think you should read post no. 2. I know it is long but still would serve as a beneficial source. It is clearly highlighted in that post that Jews are racists.
This is just so ironic, it's hilarious.
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nousername
06-21-2010, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by titus

What about going to school with Christians? Or Jews?
Actualy, no i wouldn't mind. I would perfer them to go to a Jewish or Christian school if no Islamic school is available, because those schools are generally excellent, have moral teachings, and most I know of ( especialy Catholic) welcome students of different faiths and don't force those that are non Christian to take Christian courses. They are soo much better than the filth that goes on in many public schools.
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tango92
06-21-2010, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by An33za

Racism is in their blood! I saw one documentary a few days ago in which a Jewess wanted even a pure breed for her dog! And I was totally shocked as how much they go for "pure breeds" etc!
i think we should be careful of such labeling. it is akin to judging, which only Allah swt has the right to do.

i think most people are just a product of society and happy to be that way, jews no different.
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Masuma
06-21-2010, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by titus
DNA research shows they share their ancestry. Your sources are incorrect,
And your sources are right? ;D



Originally Posted by titus
Sure they have. Muslims have committed massacres and conquest many times over the centuries. Are you so unaware of history? So have Christians and Hindus and people of other religions. Don't be so naive as to think Muslims are innocent in this.
Come on, Ahmadis are just a newly formed sect. They didn't exist far back in history, and so your argument doesn't apply.

Look, I don't deny that there are some black sheep in every community. Muslims do have them too. But the no.1 terrorist is George Bush (not a Muslim) and nowadays open autocracy is being carried out by Israel! I don't think that Sunnis and Ahmadis have yet occupied any territory unjustly!

Do YOU know any? ;D



Originally Posted by titus
What about going to school with Christians? Or Jews?
No problemo! :) These schools as long as they remain secular and don't bring religion in, I see no problem in it!
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Masuma
06-21-2010, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
i think we should be careful of such labeling. it is akin to judging, which only Allah swt has the right to do.

i think most people are just a product of society and happy to be that way, jews no different.
Hmmmm... yeah! your right brother.

But I only said that after seeing some shows on TV. But it is totally right that not ALL of the Jews are like this. :)

Originally Posted by Supreme
This is just so ironic, it's hilarious.
Yeah okay, lol! I see the point too! :D But I still think that (A) Jews not letting their daughters study with (S) Jews have more to do with racism then their lame excuse of (S) Jews girls being not religious! ( if you read the op which I doubt that you didn't. Hmm?)
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titus
06-22-2010, 01:39 PM
I don't think that Sunnis and Ahmadis have yet occupied any territory unjustly!
Sunnis most definitely have. Ahmadis have never really had any power so the point is irrelevant.

But it is totally right that not ALL of the Jews are like this.
Would you be willing to say that most Jews are not like this? Or do you think most Jews are racists and only a small minority are good people?
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Masuma
06-22-2010, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Sunnis most definitely have. Ahmadis have never really had any power so the point is irrelevant.
[citation needed]

Originally Posted by titus
Would you be willing to say that most Jews are not like this? Or do you think most Jews are racists and only a small minority are good people?
Would you be willing to say that (A) Jews by not allowing their daughters to study with (S) Jew's girls are clearly showing their racism?
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titus
06-22-2010, 01:49 PM
[citation needed]
Have to head to work shortly, will get you those within the day. They are numerous.

Would you be willing to say that (A) Jews by not allowing their daughters to study with (S) Jew's girls are clearly showing their racism?
From reading this article it could go either way. I am not sure if they want to keep them away for racial reasons or religious ones. I find trying to keep your child away from someone because of their race or because of their religion both distasteful.
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Masuma
06-22-2010, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Have to head to work shortly, will get you those within the day. They are numerous.
Please! The sources should be reliable. Don't go to shia sites for the purpose! :D

Give us a clear name of a country where Sunni Muslims derived it's people out and is demolishing their homes?

And if you want me to back up my side of argument with facts and proofs then I give you the name of a terroitory occupied by mass murderer Jews.

Its called PALESTINE!!!



Originally Posted by titus
I find trying to keep your child away from someone because of their race or because of their religion both distasteful.
Same goes for me! So what exactly are you arguing about???
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titus
06-22-2010, 02:05 PM
Same goes for me! So what exactly are you arguing about???
I also find it distasteful when people try to demonize a whole group of people based on their religion, which is the purpose of this thread.

Someone shouldn't cry "bigot" when they obviously are one.
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Masuma
06-22-2010, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by titus
I also find it distasteful when people try to demonize a whole group of people based on their religion, which is the purpose of this thread.

Someone shouldn't cry "bigot" when they obviously are one.
Ahan? Like yourself?

What are you? Blind?

Read this and why not work with some sense, aye?

Originally Posted by An33za
Hmmmm... yeah! your right brother.

But I only said that after seeing some shows on TV. But it is totally right that not ALL of the Jews are like this.
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Asiyah3
06-22-2010, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by An33za
These Jews are really sick!
I don't really know much about Orthodox Jews, but to be fair, I'm sure that if this were to happen with Muslims, it wouldn't be nice to see others judge and label in this manner. Let's treat others like we would like ourselves to be treated insha'Allah.

I don't support the unjust and oppressors among jews. May Allah help our brothers and sisters in Palestine. Ameen.

However, I think this was a bit judgemental, and un-called for. Let's judge the actions and refrain from judging the people. Allah knows best what's in the hearts of people and Allah is the best of Judges.
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espada
06-22-2010, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by titus
I also find it distasteful when people try to demonize a whole group of people based on their religion, which is the purpose of this thread.
That wasn't my purpose or intent in posting the article.

It's just another example of the times we live in.

Also, the throngs of devout Jews showed to which extent the ultra-Orthodox live by their own rules, some of them archaic, while wielding disproportionate power in the modern state of Israel.
Live by their own rules, some of them archaic, while wielding disproportionate power. Couldn't that be the Taliban (pre-invasion)? Or the religious right of GWB (yeah right - model Christian) America? Should they be applauded or derided for upholding their rigid traditions?

Unfortunately, maybe the modern Jew is just a pawn in something very hideous and sinister. Oh well ... Allah knows best.
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FS123
06-23-2010, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by **muslimah**
I don't really know much about Orthodox Jews, but to be fair, I'm sure that if this were to happen with Muslims, it wouldn't be nice to see others judge and label in this manner. Let's treat others like we would like ourselves to be treated insha'Allah.

I don't support the unjust and oppressors among jews. May Allah help our brothers and sisters in Palestine. Ameen.

However, I think this was a bit judgemental, and un-called for. Let's judge the actions and refrain from judging the people. Allah knows best what's in the hearts of people and Allah is the best of Judges.
I second that!
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titus
06-23-2010, 03:13 AM
That wasn't my purpose or intent in posting the article.
I apologize. Maybe I was rash in my judgment, but all too often on this forum you see threads and posts in which the sole purpose is to paint Jews in a negative light, and in some way redeem the posters hatred of Jews while trying to convince others to hate Jews too.

I don't think that Sunnis and Ahmadis have yet occupied any territory unjustly!
If you want a recent example you could name Iraq's occupation of Kuwait, or Iraq's invasion of Iran.

If you want historic examples you can include the conquest of Persia, the conquest of Spain, India or even the Muslim conquests in parts of Italy. The examples are numerous as I said.
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