Homosexual Muslims. How can we tolerate them?

I came across this article by Profesor Tariq Ramadan who teaches at Oxford University. I have heard him speak at events in the past but not very impressed with what he had to say. I see he wrote a new article about the interaction between Muslims and homosexuals in Europe.

He is very clear that homosexuals are sinners and that Muslims can never accept their lifestyle as decent or acceptable. So he does not ask us to do like Christians have done and just say "yeah it's OK, it is not a sin anymore". But he does say this:

We must avoid condemning or rejecting individuals. It is quite possible to disagree with a person’s behavior (public or private), while respecting that person as an individual. This I have continued to affirm, and gone further still: a person who pronounces the attestation of Islamic faith becomes a Muslim; if that person engages in homosexual practices, no one has the right to drive him or her out of Islam.

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FULL ARTICLE

Can we really think that someone who is practising homosexual liffestyle is still a Muslim? He says we can't drive them out of Islam. But I thought that they have driven themselves out of Islam themselves. I know of someone from a Muslim family who is a homo, and our families know each other for years. He is not ashamed of it and he tells everyone about it. His family rejected him and he does not see them anymore, even though his mother still speaks to him by phone.

This homo, whenever he bumps into me in town, he gives me salam. But I don't give him salam in return. I don't reject him or ignore or treat him rudely or anything. But I just can't bring myself to give salam to someone like that. Am I wrong to never return his salam???

if they are not caught bedding other men, I do not think we can call a homo outside the fold of Islam. Maybe they just have homosexual desires but they dont engage in it then there is no sin upon it. We will be questioned as to what we did, not what we felt.

I agree, they cannot be punished unless they are caught and given a fair trial where they can defend themselves. But in this day and age, and in the Europe, most homos are unashamed and will tell everyone they are having homosexual relations. They feel no shame because TV, magazines, their friends everyone says it is normal and acceptable to live that way. They even have "marriages" for homos and the goverment recognise them as married people!!! Personally I will not call them Kaffir because it is not my place to judge. But I do not want to shake hands or say Salam to them. It feels wrong to treat them like a Muslim brother when they tell you they are engaged in such disgusting filth that the punishment for it is the maximum punishment possible.

Homosexuals who are muslims are still muslims - unless you follow the Khwarij view that sinning takes you out the fold of Islam.

Quran:4(AnNisaa)-15-16:
As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way . (15) And as for the two men of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful. (16)

Nirvana said:

I came across this article by Profesor Tariq Ramadan who teaches at Oxford University. I have heard him speak at events in the past but not very impressed with what he had to say. I see he wrote a new article about the interaction between Muslims and homosexuals in Europe.

He is very clear that homosexuals are sinners and that Muslims can never accept their lifestyle as decent or acceptable. So he does not ask us to do like Christians have done and just say "yeah it's OK, it is not a sin anymore". But he does say this:



FULL ARTICLE

Can we really think that someone who is practising homosexual liffestyle is still a Muslim? He says we can't drive them out of Islam. But I thought that they have driven themselves out of Islam themselves. I know of someone from a Muslim family who is a homo, and our families know each other for years. He is not ashamed of it and he tells everyone about it. His family rejected him and he does not see them anymore, even though his mother still speaks to him by phone.

This homo, whenever he bumps into me in town, he gives me salam. But I don't give him salam in return. I don't reject him or ignore or treat him rudely or anything. But I just can't bring myself to give salam to someone like that. Am I wrong to never return his salam???

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But if someone gives you salams isnt it rude to not return them? I think not returning the greating is a little like spitting on a person. I think all that Profesor Tariq Ramadan is trying to say is it is not our place to judge. we are not supposed to be rude to people. I know homosexuality doesnt fit into whats right religiously. but thats between that person and God.

how can we let hate blind us in a religion the promotes love and respect? isnt the hate/anger burning inside you shaitan????

I am not saying throw them a party but we dont have to be rude.

Nirvana said:

I came across this article by Profesor Tariq Ramadan who teaches at Oxford University. I have heard him speak at events in the past but not very impressed with what he had to say. I see he wrote a new article about the interaction between Muslims and homosexuals in Europe.

He is very clear that homosexuals are sinners and that Muslims can never accept their lifestyle as decent or acceptable. So he does not ask us to do like Christians have done and just say "yeah it's OK, it is not a sin anymore". But he does say this:



FULL ARTICLE

Can we really think that someone who is practising homosexual liffestyle is still a Muslim? He says we can't drive them out of Islam. But I thought that they have driven themselves out of Islam themselves. I know of someone from a Muslim family who is a homo, and our families know each other for years. He is not ashamed of it and he tells everyone about it. His family rejected him and he does not see them anymore, even though his mother still speaks to him by phone.

This homo, whenever he bumps into me in town, he gives me salam. But I don't give him salam in return. I don't reject him or ignore or treat him rudely or anything. But I just can't bring myself to give salam to someone like that. Am I wrong to never return his salam???

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I completely agree with Tariq . Yes you are kind of wrong. Why dont you take the time to actually demomenstrate why homosexuality is wrong in Islam instead of rejecting the person. I dont see any harm giving a salam back. But obviously get a brother to tell him why and dont become his friend. But not saying salam back is just plain rude regardless of your feelings towards this dude.

Wa alaykum us-Salaam

Nirvana said:

[...]
This homo, whenever he bumps into me in town, he gives me salam. But I don't give him salam in return. I don't reject him or ignore or treat him rudely or anything. But I just can't bring myself to give salam to someone like that. Am I wrong to never return his salam???

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maybe you saying salaam back may soften his heart to change? you probably live in a society where homosexuality is a norm? people are going to be more willing to be comfortable around those who make them feel welcome...so in this case, its either going to be with those who accept him fow who he is (not good as it could prove more detrimental to his iman) or with the Muslims (good for the sake of dawah, etc).

i don't agree that homosexuality should be accepted and i don't like silly/apologetic views either however, i think first you should at least try to preach/advice them. its understandable that you feel uncomfortable around him/don't like him, but we don't shun Muslims who have gf/bf's or those who drink and commit zina. we dont shun those who show off about their deeds...we don't shun those who are willing to slander other Muslims for the sake of pleasing those kuffar who fight the Muslims.

i think its good that he's actually passing the salaam, as far as i know Muslims like that seem quite arrogant and don't care for their brethren in faith (?). at least by him passing the salam, he still seems inclined/care about Muslims.

at least try to help him first.

You have to remember, he is still a human being. Too many times I have seen people (particularly on the internet) with what I term as haramphobia.
"Ya Allah, it's a pig!" *throws pig out of the farm*
"Astaghfirullah, this medicine has alcohol in it" *chucks medicine bottle at a bird*.
"BID-AAAAAARGH" *karate chops the cd player at someone's wedding*

I could go on (in fact, I might do a blog entry on this very issue), but the point is: there are other ways of dealing with such situations. Getting angry at a problem doesn't fix it. It'd be like smashing a rubix cube against a wall because the top left cube is green on an otherwise blue section ---> Overkill!

aamirsaab said:

I could go on (in fact, I might do a blog entry on this very issue), but the point is: there are other ways of dealing with such situations. Getting angry at a problem doesn't fix it. It'd be like smashing a rubix cube against a wall because the top left cube is green on an otherwise blue section ---> Overkill!

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Exactly! Best we can do is politely discourage it.

Some good advice. Thank you. I will try and maintain compassion for this person. Maybe they can be redeemed and brought back from the brink.

salaam aleykum ve rahmetullah,

When I read your tread 2 diffrent occasions came into my mind which I find very fitting for your problem.

1. At one lecture Ahmed Deedat (r.a) was asked for advice from a revert to Islam who were previously a homosexuell and still have problem in abstaining from homosexuell thoughts. Ahmed Deedat (r.a) gave a very wise answer. He said that if we spend a great deal of our life in a certain lifestile it is extremly difficult to break with this lifestile and abstain from our old habits afterwards. We can easily realize this fact if we only reflect on ourselves a little bit. Everyone of us Muslim have some kind of habit which we know certaily is not only wrong but contrary to islamic teaching, but we still have great difficulties breaking with it. At this moment the shaytan often plays a big trick with us. He brings us somehow to convince ourselves that our sin which whom we struggle so hard is somewhat okay in insignificant and you can see clearly that a lot of us muslim trying to justify our bad actions instead of repenting to our lord.

2. In a lecture of Hamza Yusuf he narrated the following story. During a lecture of another sheikh we was assigned as translator for arabic to english. During the question and answer session a revert to islam asked that his relative is homosexuell and he wanted to know if he should still have contact with him despite his lifestile. Hamza Yusuf thought the sheikh would be very shocked and disgusted by this question and he was a little bit ashamed while translating it to arabic. After the translation the sheikh smiled and just said: "Shirk is much worse than that.", meaning if we are not allowed to cut the bond of relationship with someone whose doing shirk how can cut it with someone whose doing lesser sins, namely homosexuell acts. When it is true that shirk is worse than practice homosexuality it follows that we should be treat homosexuals much better than anyone who doing shirk. If we then look at ourselves we are the opposite, we treat people who are involved in shirk much better than muslims who are commiting compared to shirk some "minor sins".

I hope this will be usefull to you

Hamza Abdulhakim

there are homos who commit those sins but acknowledge they are haraam - they are still muslim

and there are those who do it but believe its halal - they are kaffirs

Nirvana said:

I came across this article by Profesor Tariq Ramadan who teaches at Oxford University. I have heard him speak at events in the past but not very impressed with what he had to say. I see he wrote a new article about the interaction between Muslims and homosexuals in Europe.

He is very clear that homosexuals are sinners and that Muslims can never accept their lifestyle as decent or acceptable. So he does not ask us to do like Christians have done and just say "yeah it's OK, it is not a sin anymore". But he does say this:



FULL ARTICLE

Can we really think that someone who is practising homosexual liffestyle is still a Muslim? He says we can't drive them out of Islam. But I thought that they have driven themselves out of Islam themselves. I know of someone from a Muslim family who is a homo, and our families know each other for years. He is not ashamed of it and he tells everyone about it. His family rejected him and he does not see them anymore, even though his mother still speaks to him by phone.

This homo, whenever he bumps into me in town, he gives me salam. But I don't give him salam in return. I don't reject him or ignore or treat him rudely or anything. But I just can't bring myself to give salam to someone like that. Am I wrong to never return his salam???

Click to expand...

okay im going to be harsh but its for your good! do we honestly have a right to judge others by what sins they do? who gave you any right to judge the brother by what lifestyle he has chosen??

and then we wonder why these muslims don't stop this type of life style because we are just so unbelievably harsh with them! maybe by just one kind word, that brother could realise what on earth he is doing wrong and change for the better. but we just can not keep our nasty mouths closed can we? if we don't have anything good to say. we should stay quite. the prophet (saw) warned us of this!

our mouths will be the very thing that will land us in hell...keep your hate inside and seek refuge in Allah and give thanks to Allah your not like that and make duaa for him. give him dawah, speak good about him also. we are meant to make excuses for our brothers and sisters and not pick at there faults. blame the society brother! blame the society!! because they are the ones who are brain washing them.

why don't you just make a thread about how we can help these homosexuals instead and how we can bring them back on the straight path inshallah.

now i hope you will understand what im saying brother that its very important not to judge and you also do not know whether he is committing zina or not so it is a very dangerous to open our mouths on such matters.

may Allah guide us all and keep us on the straight path Ameen.

cat eyes said:

okay im going to be harsh but its for your good! do we honestly have a right to judge others by what sins they do? who gave you any right to judge the brother by what lifestyle he has chosen??

and then we wonder why these muslims don't stop this type of life style because we are just so unbelievably harsh with them! maybe by just one kind word, that brother could realise what on earth he is doing wrong and change for the better. but we just can not keep our nasty mouths closed can we? if we don't have anything good to say. we should stay quite. the prophet (saw) warned us of this!

our mouths will be the very thing that will land us in hell...keep your hate inside and seek refuge in Allah and give thanks to Allah your not like that and make duaa for him. give him dawah, speak good about him also. we are meant to make excuses for our brothers and sisters and not pick at there faults. blame the society brother! blame the society!! because they are the ones who are brain washing them.

why don't you just make a thread about how we can help these homosexuals instead and how we can bring them back on the straight path inshallah.

now i hope you will understand what im saying brother that its very important not to judge and you also do not know whether he is committing zina or not so it is a very dangerous to open our mouths on such matters.

may Allah guide us all and keep us on the straight path Ameen.

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I appreciate your thoughts, however also remember what Allah says in the quran:

“The believers, men and women, are auliya (helpers, supporters, friends and protectors) of one another; they Enjoin (people to) good and Forbid (people) from evil.” (TMQ At Taubah: 71)

The hadith of Rasullullah Sallalahu Allaihi Wassallam:

"Whoever sees something evil should change it with his hand. If he cannot, then with his tongue; and if he cannot do even that, then in his heart and that is the weakest form of faith" (Sahih Muslim)

A true believer is primarily concerned about the commands of Allah Ta'ala and the Sunnah of Rasulullah [sallallahu alaihi wa sallam]. He regards the slightest violation as a serious sin.

Sins are of two categories: One is the sin that is perpetrated in secrecy. While committing it in secrecy does not diminish its severity, worse than this is the sin that is the sin that is committed in public. When a sin is commited openly and those not involved shirk in their duty of amr bil maroof and nahy anil munkar [enjoining the good and forbidding the evil] the perpetrators of that evil as well as those who maintained silence despite their ability to correct the evil are engulfed in the wrath of Allah.

Rasulullah [sallallahu alaihi wa sallam] is reported to have said: Verily Allah will not punish all the people due to the actions of a specific group until a sin is commited in their midst. Thereafter, despite their ability to repel the evil they do nothing about it. In such a situation Allah will punish the open sinner as well as the general masses who maintain silence. [Mishkaat]

Muslimeen said:

I appreciate your thoughts, however also remember what Allah says in the quran:

“The believers, men and women, are auliya (helpers, supporters, friends and protectors) of one another; they Enjoin (people to) good and Forbid (people) from evil.” (TMQ At Taubah: 71)

The hadith of Rasullullah Sallalahu Allaihi Wassallam:

"Whoever sees something evil should change it with his hand. If he cannot, then with his tongue; and if he cannot do even that, then in his heart and that is the weakest form of faith" (Sahih Muslim)

A true believer is primarily concerned about the commands of Allah Ta'ala and the Sunnah of Rasulullah [sallallahu alaihi wa sallam]. He regards the slightest violation as a serious sin.

Sins are of two categories: One is the sin that is perpetrated in secrecy. While committing it in secrecy does not diminish its severity, worse than this is the sin that is the sin that is committed in public. When a sin is commited openly and those not involved shirk in their duty of amr bil maroof and nahy anil munkar [enjoining the good and forbidding the evil] the perpetrators of that evil as well as those who maintained silence despite their ability to correct the evil are engulfed in the wrath of Allah.

Rasulullah [sallallahu alaihi wa sallam] is reported to have said: Verily Allah will not punish all the people due to the actions of a specific group until a sin is commited in their midst. Thereafter, despite their ability to repel the evil they do nothing about it. In such a situation Allah will punish the open sinner as well as the general masses who maintain silence. [Mishkaat]

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hummmm i read his post and he is not criticizing the evil.. hes criticizing the person and even going as far as suggesting he might be having homosexual acts just because the brother has told people he is gay, there is no evidence or prove to say he is acting upon it. hes come on a public forum to criticize a brother which is a sin. forbidding evil is giving dawah to the person but not judging the person. if you read my post again brother you will see this is exactly what i'm saying. they are human like us at the end of the day.

Brother don't misinterpret those hadiths as an excuse to judge someone

cat eyes said:

hummmm i read his post and he is not criticizing the evil.. hes criticizing the person and even going as far as suggesting he might be having homosexual acts just because the brother has told people he is gay, there is no evidence or prove to say he is acting upon it. hes come on a public forum to criticize a brother which is a sin. forbidding evil is giving dawah to the person but not judging the person. if you read my post again brother you will see this is exactly what i'm saying. they are human like us at the end of the day.

Brother don't misinterpret those hadiths as an excuse to judge someone

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The fact that he is going around telling people he is gay, shows he level of morals. Speaking about your sin and flaunting it openly in front of your friends is haraam, and is a major sin. At the very least a person should be ashamed of his sins and not parade it openly. It is one of the ways of spreading immorality among the Muslims, encouraging evil and tempting others to do similar things. It also means that one does not take sin seriously and regards it as insignificant, and that the sinner is damaging his own reputation and exposing his honour to the slander of others. Islam seeks to put people off from doing such things in the strongest possible terms, as in the following hadeeth:


Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “All of my ummah will be forgiven except those who sin openly. It is a part of sinning openly when a man does something at night, then the following morning when Allaah has concealed his sin, he says, ‘O So and so, I did such and such last night,’ when all night his Lord has concealed him and the next morning he uncovers what Allaah had concealed.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5721; Muslim, 2990).


May allah guide us onto the path of Siratul Mustakeem. Ameen

Encourage good and forbid evil. If someone's into anything haram, homosexuality included; encourage them towards good, and away from their evil. Forbid the evil acts, not the person. Remember: don't go pushing homosexuals off mountains; instead, encourage them to push away their evil actions. Its like giving advice to a smoker, "kill the smoke, before the smoke kills you". The only difference being; no-one's going to kill the homosexual, but he's piling up heavy amounts of sins for the next life, which is harmful for himself.

:wa:

What is the guidance of Allah and the Practice of Prophet Muhammad ( )?

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

The Westernization of those who adhere to Islam is evident when it becomes fashionable to tolerate evil.
We start making excuses for those who engage in evil. If Allah and his Prophet Muhammad
(صلى الله عليه و سلم ) don't tolerate evil neither should those claiming to follow their guidance.
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Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 820:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and 'Umar also turned out such-and-such person.
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Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 383:

Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:

We were with the Prophet when he said (to two men), "I shall judge between you according to Allah's Book (Laws)."
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Practicing Muslims judge with the Quran and Sunna.
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Surah Al A'raf 7:80-81

80. And (remember) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)?

81. "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)."
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Ash Shu'ara 26:165-166

165. "Go you in unto the males of the 'Alamîn (mankind),

166. "And leave those whom Allâh has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!"
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Those who are mature in their Din realize that they are not living in a bubble. There are Muslims who are gay. (Astagfirullah) In Bacha Bazi Documentary you will be faced with a reality and be horrified at the homosexuality practiced by Muslims. This in no reflection upon Islam but people weak in faith who practice tribal customs. There are even websites.

Practicing Muslims tend to be in denial regarding the homosexual deviant minority.

The television programming in the West inundates the viewer with homosexuality. (From Ellen DeGeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, etc.) The google ad in the islamicboard has a poll on Is Gay Marriage wrong?

The GLBT community current activism is about making GLBT mainstream thought. They have used the civil rights of the 1960's platform to further their agenda. Attempting to legislate the deviant lifestyle in the lives of the majority.

If you are not in a country that is dominated with Muslims or a society based upon the tenets of Islam there is nothing you can do but surround yourself with the Muslim community.

A practicing Muslim shouldn't even have the time to invest in someone else's lifestyle that doesn't effect them.

This reply was submitted with the best intentions and the best construction should be applied.

Jazakumullahu Khair